The effort to insert the ‘strengths and weaknesses” nonsense into the Texas science curriculum by creationists has been defeated. That’s the good news.
The bad news is that it was a real squeaker, defeated by a 7:7 vote. It was a ridiculous notion, and it’s similarly ridiculous that it was even close.
that is good news
Now they just need to get some more good biology teachers in there to drive this victory home.
Good News. But it’s too bad McLeroy is still there because we can expect more of this.
Ok,I’ve been watching from the cheap seats and I thought for sure this was going to pass. I noticed two republicans sided with science. Did they switch their vote?
PZ,
It’s far from over. Don McLeroy and colleagues have proposed amendments that question common descent, natural selection, and the cosmological age of the Earth and universe. Last minute, just like before. They passed but require a final vote on Friday.
#3 bunnycatch3r: actually, three Republicans sided with science: Pat Hardy, Bob Craig, and Geraldine Miller. Also, pro-science board member Mary Helen Berlanga was absent from today’s meeting due to an illness in the family but will be able to join the proceedings tomorrow.
Follow the mayhem here.
This is AWESOME news! My wife and I live in Dallas and just recently found out that we’re expecting our first child. It scares me to think that half of my state’s BOE thinks that the genesis story should be taken into consideration in my child’s public school science class. I can’t wait for pRick Perry and Don McLeroy get out of office.
Oops. Maybe not. See Phil Plaits blog, Texas has slipped back into trouble in just 6 hours.
This being Texas, you can count on a well-funded effort to drive the sensible ones out of the school board. The War Against Brains is alive and well in Texas.
The fact that it wasn’t defeated unanimously truly scares me. We have a long way to go in weeding out stupidity.
“It scares me to think that half of my state’s BOE thinks that the genesis story should be taken into consideration in my child’s public school science class”
I don’t think anyone wanted anything about Genesis or even mentioned creation in science class. The issue was whether teachers should have the academic freedom to teach both strengths and weaknesses of all scientific theories ,like hey did before the recent change.
Which theories in which fields of science have weaknesses, facilis? And what are those weaknesses? Do you have any examples of where those weaknesses were being taught, and by whom?
Let’s just get a big carbon tax in place now. Then Texans might understand that educating their citizens would be a good plan for long-term viability.
I lived there for a year or two – what a horrible place.
How fucking thick are you facilis? This has been explained to you time and time again.
a) it’s high school and as such there is no such thing as academic freedom there – academic freedom happens in academia, in the universities
b) science is inherently self-critical and as such getting teachers to point out the strengths and weaknesses is redundant
c) these bills exist to allow for unscientific teaching in the science classroom, they are the latest face of the creationist movement
d) the “weaknesses” they try to point out in the theory of evolution simply do not exist.
I remember Walton defending facilis in that he came into this place in a similar mindset and look at how he’s changed. Though Walton showed that he has at least some capacity to learn. At best when facilis has his argument torn apart is he withdraws bringing the argument up as opposed to admitting it’s flawed. He’ll post the same inane crap time and time again because he has no capacity to learn, and the absolute certainty that he’s right.
I mean, for fucks sake. He’s had the whole idea of “academic freedom” explained to him in meticulous detail. And does he learn anything from it? No, he just withdraws to another thread to make the same inane claim and so the cycle continues.
And do you support the teachers’ academic freedom to rip creationism or intelligent design (watered down creationism) a new one if a child ever asks about it, Facilis? Because that is the only real place I can think of for any “weaknesses” discussions in science education at the high school level or elementary levels. But nooooooooo, that would be unfair to other theories, wouldn’t it …
It’s good to hear that this did not pass, but concerning in that it looks like the Creationist PR firms are getting closer to finding something that just might squeak by.
Facilis – Bollocks!
As a recent transplant to Texas with kids in the public schools, this is an assault on teaching science. They’re going after biology first, but the Earth sciences are not immune either, and it makes me worry about ciriculum review in ANY subject.
I’m all for teaching the nuances of theory, but not to high school students. You need a foundation before you can have intelligent discussion. When the fundamentals are understood, then a more advanced discussion can take place.
And for anyone that’s followed the participants involved, their statements, their backgrounds, it’s pretty easy to realize that the desire to hamstring the teaching of science is both religious and political.
Can you tell me with a straight face that if this was giving a foothold to teaching the Norse, the Greek, the Hindu, or FSM’s theory of creation as science that the same people who voted would NOT howl at an attempt to subvert the education system and what is taught in the schools?
Science belongs in a science class. If you’re going to teach religion in a school it better be in a religous based school, or in the proper context in a related class – Sociology, or Folklore. Putting these types of religious litmus tests on science is a pathetic joke.
James
Ok Kel
I was just trying to see what kind of reaction I would get.
I don’t really care that much about Texas education.
But in all honesty I do not see anything objectionable about teaching the weaknesses or a theory (whether it be punctuated equilibrium, abiogenesis or special relativity).
You guys seem to think that when people say weakness, that it automatically equals teaching creationism and that is a big jump.
“You guys seem to think that when people say weakness, that it automatically equals teaching creationism and that is a big jump.”
Uh, we’re just looking at the people claiming the ‘weaknesses’. Obvious agenda is obvious.
Facilis,
No, it isn’t. Their ulterior motives are quite transparent. Are they putting forward bills to teach the “weaknesses” of special relativity, cell theory, atomic theory, etc? Is it a coincidence that the people “[v]oting for the requirement were the seven Republican board members aligned with social conservative groups”?
Facilis, please tell us what weaknesses there are in theories such as evolution, special relativity or quantum mechanics, or please shut the hell up.
facilis: ‘I think someone should catch the people who murdered my family’
Police: ‘Okay, where are the bodies so we can get started on some forensic analysis?’
facilis: ‘Oh, no-one was actually murdered; I just think that if someone ever is, you should probably catch them.’
Police: ‘Fucking tool. Book him for filing a false report.’
As I told you before, facilis, any real scientist would love to find weaknesses in current science. That’s how people win Nobel Prizes – just like the example I gave you the other day. Maybe you should actually try reading when people respond to you; perhaps* you’ll write fewer truly stupid posts.
*By this I mean unlikely, but still possible.
#9
Facilis, have you been to your own website? http://facilis.wordpress.com/ ? You aren’t fooling anyone!
If I have kids they’re going to get a good bit of home schooling on top of public school. If the teacher says some crap with my kid in the class, he/she is going to raise his/her hand and call bullocks on the teacher.
Oh oh, Facilis is already on trial for allegedly torturing logic.
I see that they now are trying to slip in alternate extimates on the age of the universe:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/26/texas-from-saved-to-doomed-in-just-6-hours/
On a similar note, while googling for news on this very news event, I found the following. Filled with tired, typical anti-evolution ignorance, but I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition.:
http://www.americandailyreview.com/home-features-articles-blog/2009/3/25/the-jealous-god.html
You’re right, it doesn’t mean all teachers across the state will suddenly start teaching creationism. But it gives those teachers who want to put it in their lessons a justification. They can point to the standards and say, “See, I was just teaching the ‘weaknesses’ of the theory”. By the way, Facilis, what are these weaknesses of evolutionary theory that you think deserve a place in a high school science class?
My mom and sister are becoming megachurch fundies in the Houston area …
Their just about perfectly brainwashed….They have been taught that their Faith will be put to the test [people will talk sense to them and provide them with facts ]…and that this is a golden opportunity to show God that their made of the right stuff.
Ignoring facts and common sense becomes their way sticking it to the Devil each and every day…..
How do you brake through that???
Why the fuck is Facilis allowed to play these games?
It’s the opposite of classiness, Facilis, so at least you are doing your best to encourage the worst possible stereotype to hsrden that much more.
How odd that your sort of tiresome jerk simply doesn’t ever show it’s assholishness either than on the Intertubes, bastions of “Republican” sobs, or in church.
No, it’s not a big jump if you look at the history of the movement and of the wordings in the bill. I’ll repeat again – science has self-correction built into it’s method, thus to mandate strengths and weaknesses is redundant. Science is not dogmatic, it’s tentative knowledge and if you can’t grasp that concept you’ll never understand. Secondly, we can look at the sponsors of the bills and the wordings therein and see the creationist hand at play. “Strengths and weaknesses” and “academic freedom” is the latest creationist attack on science. Take off your Jesus glasses and open your eyes!
facilis, are you oblivious or deliberately deceptive. I can’t tell if you simply think that these bills don’t have a creationist hand behind them (even after being confronted with the evidence) or you do see it and act otherwise as a means of attacking “darwinism.” Much like you quoting Vox Day, it’s not that you agree with him, you just don’t like the Big Bad Atheists saying that 2+2=4 is self-evident.
What are they getting them ready for…?
Why do they need people to be so unintelligent…?
What’s next….a new pair of sneakers and a big glass of koolaid..?
It never ends,does it.
This Texas school board sure has an awful lot of sitting sessions.
And I thought if the vote is split the head of the board has the last word and decides?
http://i39.tinypic.com/24pbb05.jpg
sigh. pyrrhic victory at best, and the war is far from over. just watching from the sidelines is exhausting!
Deliberately deceptive. I checked out his web site. Pure godbot.
So in that case he’s either oblivious to the knowledge that people here have on the matter, or he doesn’t think much of our intelligent by promoting what is obviously a red herring.
#23 is a five star comment.
@ Facilis # 9 re:
Ya know, Facilis, maybe it’s just me, layperson that I am, but I am under the understanding that the entire point of science is to explain the “natural world” (that which is observable and measurable) via hypothesis that use observation and measurement and are predictive, in that the hypothesis can be tested to see if the prediction comes to be.
Of course Evolutionary theory is incomplete, just as are theories of Physics and Neuroscience and Chemistry and Geology and Climatology and Astrophysics and Anthropology and Paleontology, yadda. Doesn’t mean you just dump the process for the latest non-observable/non-testable woo.
How would one “teach” a “strength” or “weakness” of a particular hypothesis that has been sufficiently tested to be called a theory or law? Are Newton’s “laws of motion” wrong? Or are they just not complete when considering things that are moving rapidly relative to one another. Perhaps you, Facilis might like to show the class the “weakness” of Newton’s laws by running really fast off the top of a very tall cliff?
All one can do is make sure the kids have a *clear* understanding of how science works, have them learn what it has very successfully explained and how it did that, and (given there is time in the educational process) spark their imagination by letting them know what still needs to be investigated (so the kids understand that they can “play” too, if they so choose in their educational future)
Facilis, why do you think our country (even under the previous administration) sends rovers to walk the surface of Mars and spacecraft like Cassini to observe Saturn and its moons? Do you think they were sent there to find oil, so we can “drill, baby, drill”? Do you have any idea what it would mean to science, in particular Biology, if a rover struck oil on Mars? Do you clearly understand the implications to every “sky-daddy” religion on Earth if such a thing was to occur?
Spare us the platitudes of “teach both strengths and weaknesses of all scientific theories”. It’s a very boring and unimaginative approach.
Unfortunately it turned bad. I just read at the Bad Astronomy blog that there was an amendment…
The amendment passed 11 to 3 :(
That quote can be found here: http://tfnblog.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/live-blogging-the-texas-science-debate-iv/
So while one part failed, another part suceeded.
As a european i seriously can’t wrap my head around such thinking.
i really don’t understand it.
Maybe it’s because science for us, is just normal and most of at least the netherlands is not religious at all.
We think that the jehova’s witness that tries to visit us once a year is a nuissance, but if you say you’re not interested they will leave again and not even push anymore.
This is just mind boggling, it seriously is.
OK Texans – now it’s time to do what the good citizens of Dover, PA did and remove incompetency from your school board. If you don’t, a similar bill will almost certainly pass somewhere down the line.
John @41
“OK Texans – now it’s time to do what the good citizens of Dover, PA did and remove incompetency from your school board. If you don’t, a similar bill will almost certainly pass somewhere down the line.”
Exactly!! Do a Dover on this dimwitted dog doos. Let the entire media focus on this issue and this stupid board. Nothing like media attention to start waking Texans up from the underhandedness of their BOE.
I thought you had a right to bear arms to fight this kind of authority bullshit.
Shouldn’t you be marching down there with a few machineguns or something?
This deeply saddens me. Creationism focuses on “what if?”; it has no scientific basis or factual substantiation. My son is also outraged over this. I certainly would not want the science education of my grandchildren destroyed by the agenda of the creationists. Keep your religious bull out of my science class.
Then you’re not paying attention. McLeroy has gone so far as to endorse a book that teaches that Zeus was really Adam, and all of Greek culture is a rebellion against the story of Genesis — after it spends 8 chapters attacking the National Academy of Sciences as an evil institution.
There is real pathology here. Joking McLeroy the leader of the Texas Taliban understates the threat to education, and to Texas, and to the nation. The Taliban are transparent by contrast.
The only weaknesses anyone can find is that evolution theory doesn’t tell whether Adam had a navel or not, nor does it mention Adam and Eve at all. “Strengths and weaknesses” also somehow always forgets to mention the strengths of evolution theory. Testimony from such creationist stalwarts as Walter Bradley made it pretty clear that teaching Genesis is, in fact, the goal of the evolution critics. In the past week, the Discovery Institute has appeared closer to Darwin, only by contrast.
The story that M. D. Anderson Cancer Center and the University of Texas medical schools are thinking of relocating outside the state are probably just rumor, but scary in that they make sense in the light of the actions of the SBOE.
Sorry about that. Let me try to get the formatting right:
Then you’re not paying attention. McLeroy has gone so far as to endorse a book that teaches that Zeus was really Adam, and all of Greek culture is a rebellion against the story of Genesis — after it spends 8 chapters attacking the National Academy of Sciences as an evil institution.
There is real pathology here. Joking McLeroy the leader of the Texas Taliban understates the threat to education, and to Texas, and to the nation. The Taliban are transparent by contrast.
The only weaknesses anyone can find is that evolution theory doesn’t tell whether Adam had a navel or not, nor does it mention Adam and Eve at all. “Strengths and weaknesses” also somehow always forgets to mention the strengths of evolution theory. Testimony from such creationist stalwarts as Walter Bradley made it pretty clear that teaching Genesis is, in fact, the goal of the evolution critics. In the past week, the Discovery Institute has appeared closer to Darwin, only by contrast.
The story that M. D. Anderson Cancer Center and the University of Texas medical schools are thinking of relocating outside the state are probably just rumor, but scary in that they make sense in the light of the actions of the SBOE.
Uh…41 and 42–hate to burst your bubble, but if you tell average Texans, “Look–they’re trying to kill science by not teaching evolution properly!” a lot of Texans are going to say, “Yee-haw! Dang, that’s good news!”
I wish it weren’t true.
But it is.
The Republican party has a stranglehold on the state, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Worse, too many of the transplants we’re getting are the hateful, ignorant, selfish and gullible that fit right into the Republican party. For every sane person who gets dragged into TX, kicking and screaming, there are 10,000 ignorant fucktards stampeding past.
Every day, I seriously consider moving to saner parts of the country. I just can’t afford it.
Facilis said:
That’s the problem. No creationist really cares much about education, except to subvert it. Misleading children is a game to creationists. Teachings of Jesus notwithstanding, lying to kids about God’s creation doesn’t give any creationist any pause at all.
That’s the start of the very steep slope to immorality creationism pushes kids down.
You live in Houston an you don’t care about education in Texas? I think such statements should be considered tantamount to a declaration of renunciation of U.S. citizenship, certainly Texas citizenship.
Texas Freedom Network has been as much on top of this issue as anyone. The headline on their blog this morning is “Texas Science Under Siege.” Go read. E-mails still work.
I know almost nothing about Texas, but if this crazy ideas of mr. McLeroy wins and are aproved, shouldnt the Science teachers in Texas refuse o use such nonsense int the schools?
If the teachers talk with the students parents, maybe the parents start to understand what is Science and what is supestition, wrapped in religious fundamentalism…
PE, abiogenesis and special relativity. What an odd group of “weaknesses.” Were those chosen for sounding fancy?
From the Dallas Morning News: The science standards adopted by the board also will figure into questions used on the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills.
So kids would have to make obeisance to God the Designer to graduate from high school (even if only to the extent of parroting the religious creed of non-existent “problems” or “questions” regarding evolutionary theory), and this would be taken into consideration in federal school funding through No Child Left Behind, I assume?
Pretty damned repugnant to thinking people, I’d say.
Sorry Fernando, that would imply that the teachers themselves were in touch with reality, which is not always the case. Even having it as part of the curriculum is no guarantee. My sixth grade science teacher put it to us pretty straight, ” We’re skipping this chapter because a dog gives birth to another dog, not to a cat.”
It’s a good thing my religious father had engrained all of us with a respect for the position of science over any scripture. I know the pov is not popular here, but religion saved me from the fundies that owned my hometown.
Hats off to the sensible people in Texas.
I was born and grew up in east Texas and though there always was and is a strident,backward and willfully ignorant segment of the population(as there is probably most everywhere)the nascent anti-intellectual agenda in the 50’s 60′ and 70’s, was not nearly as bad as it is now. During the “space race” science was looked at as positive hope for our future and was an exciting time like with the first moon landing.
Not to unfairly condemn all conservatives, because there are many who reject this anti-science nonsense, but we can thank the atmosphere that exists now on the type of paleo/religious conservatism which is proud of it’s obstinate denial and ignorance of anything that contradicts a myopic and insular worldview. They are either too scared to offend their God or too intellectually lazy or apathetic to examine the universe from the deeper perpsective of open curiosity and love of knowledge.
Indeed even questioning and probing around the areas of why and how are considered evil and satanic by some of them.
Texas,in a way,is a exagerrated example of the delusional hubris of so-called American exceptionalism and our notions of special entitlement taken to the extreme, a people set apart,special and “like a whole other country”
When I was a child that grandiose hubris even made it’s way into a map I had which dispicted Texas as enlarged to take up most of the area of the United States and all the other states fitting into the small spaces left over.
In spite of these things and in trying to avoid being overly sentimental or naive(I recognize the problems like overt rascism etc.), I still have a deep nostalgia for growing up in a “simpler” world of that “other” Texas at that time,one that is increasingly disappearing. It’s about neighborhoods(like in other areas of the US), where as children we could roam free and safe during our summers and weekends to explore the nature that still existed close by in our older suburbs. There was also I think, even with Texans fierce independence,a concern about the health of the community as a whole and not the self-absorbed “it’s all about me attitude” that I believe extreme conservatism has engendered; even ironcially as social conservatism preached “family values” it endorsed a philosophy and broken economic system which has had profoundly the opposite effect. (I do not outright reject a sensible and thoughtful capitalism and a ethical free market, only how the system has been misused.)
To me family values extends way beyond the nuclear human family though to the “family” of life on this increasingly small planet and how the biology that has comfortably supported lifes existence in our present geologic period is being carelessly and selfishly jeopardized for short term and unsustainble reasons. The willfull ignorance that the anti-science religious fanatics promote is a big part of the problem and only hinders our reasonable efforts to understand and rectify the serious isses we all face.
Just read Caegill’s home page and some of her news releases. She is an idiot.
http://www.barbaracargill.com/2008.12.CC.html
We want to move to TX but this has us doubting that idea, especially with a kid that is school age.
ChrisKG: Texas, eh?
I hear Austin is very nice. Good music scene. For the rest …
As a Texan whose SBOE member is one of the worst, Mrs Dunbar, it’s at least created some interesting talks with my kiddos. They are learning early that adults, even/especially elected officials can be full-on raving idiots. Whose actions and words must be examined critically and subjected to, dare I say a testing of their “strengths and weaknesses.”
The truly funny thing about all this is how it shows the dangers of aligning yourself politically with these fanatics. Governor Goodhair, (aka Rick Perry) has been trying to entice high tech companies, from computer game makers to stem-cell researchers, to Texas throughout his time in office. At the same time, he has reached out to the absolutist Christian base by attending revivals and mega church services that he never would have been caught dead at before taking office (he’s a bit of a snob). If the incompatibility of science and religion needed proving this provides it; by empowering and emboldening the fundamentalists, governor Perry has undermined his chosen legacy; this initiative to bring to and retain in Texas high-wage, high-tech businesses.
“Hats off to the sensible people in Texas.”
Who may be few, but form at least half of the people, or at least half of the people with influence.
“Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss!”
-The Who, Won’t Get Fooled Again
Glad to hear of the vote, narrowest of victories that it was, but we’ll have to see if this new amendment garbage gets through.
The geography, and geographic diversity in Texas is awesome, from Big Bend National Park to the eastern woods to the hill country to the Gulf coast to the Chihuahua Desert and Franklin Mountains region (to be honest, I don’t much like the panhandle. The best thing about Lubbock is seeing it in the rear view mirror.)
But some days, living down here just makes you tired.
“Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;”
-William Shakespeare, Henry V, Act III, Scene 1
The fight goes on.
No kings,
Robert
Sailaus:
“adults, even/especially elected officials can be full-on raving idiots. Whose actions and words must be examined critically and subjected to, dare I say a testing of their ‘strengths and weaknesses.’ ”
Perfect. I love it.
Too bad religious wingnuts don’t understand irony …
Desert Son @61:
Nice post. I agree on the geography and natural parts of TX. It’s the social/political parts that would be a big problem for me. The land o’Tom DeLay’s gerrymandering …
(I own Branagh’s Henry, wonderful stuff. Also McKellan’s Richard III)
Cheers
*clenched tentacle salute of solidarity with Sailaus*
(Dunbar’s my district SBOE rep, too)
No kings,
Robert
Perhaps the Texan board should just examine some entrails to decide if evolution should be taught?
You know,
I feel really bad for the progressive / pro-science on that board. They might be, in their minds, screaming that the bill is completely stupid and ridiculous, but are afraid to say anything because they have to trot this thin line in order to maintain their office and not be made into a pariah.
Then again, they might all just be varying gradations idiot. I don’t know any of them personally.
But I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that there are a few people who are simply faced with inner-conflicts.
Aaron @66:
I read the whole article from the Dallas paper online. Several of the intelligent ones, I thought, did a fine job of defining the issue: These people want religion taught as science in public schools and we must not allow it. And it’s unconstitutional as well.
For politicians, I think they did fine.
I also second Desert Son’s @61 post that the natural diversity and beauty of Texas is magnificent. To bad people like Tom Delay have to poisoned the state in more ways than one.
Facilis, instead of providing specific weaknesses within a given theory, how about you provide a description of what constitutes a weakness within a scientific theory. You’ve been jumping up and down saying:
“Teach strengths and weaknesses!”
“Teach strengths and weaknesses!”
If you support teaching the weaknesses of theories, then I presume that you have a really good understanding of what weakness means. What’s your definition of a weakness within a scientific theory?
To be added to the next agenda: BIRT teachers in Texas shall be free to discuss the ‘theory’ that Don McLeroy blows goats…
(Well, hey… it’s just a theory…)
Well the thing is the goal is to allow teachers to “teach the weakness” of a scientific theory, it seems rather obvious that non-science like Creationism doesn’t apply.
The main weakness of evolutionary theory is that it’s too complex for simpletons like Kirk Cameron to comprehend. People who don’t understand why there isn’t a crocoduck, and why it isn’t a transitional form, have no business teaching evolution, in highschools or otherwise.
Sledgehammer? :) The only cure for stupid I know is science. Too bad you can’t get it in pill form.
JBlilie at #63:
Thanks, and yeah, the socio-political atmosphere down here is complicated. former Texas resident’s post at #55 really captured it, I think.
McKellan’s Richard III is excellent. I used to feel keener about Branagh’s work than I do now. Sometimes, I feel like he’s slipping into just a little too much ham, and sometimes I find it difficult to see Brian Blessed’s giant gaping maw and not hear, “Flying blind on a rocket cycle?!?!?” Still, that version is chock full of great acting: Sirs Ian Holm and Derek Jacoby, Dame Judy Dench, Paul Scofield, Geraldine McEwan, the characterizations of Bardolph, Nym, and Pistol, are all outstanding, and the music is beautiful, and the cinematography is terrific.
*another clenched tentacle salute*
No kings,
Robert
Thanks for the compliment Robert.(Desert Son) As I said before in another way, there is a “romantic mystique” of Texas that is still a part of me.
@53, My High School Biology teacher spent less than a week on evolution, stressed that there are many problems with it, and gave EXTRA CREDIT to anyone who wrote a paper on Biblical Creationism. This, in a public school. It is not just TX!
Maybe part of the solution needs to be the enlistment of University Science Departments across the country to send a message to Texas. The message would be that any prospective students from Texas will face remedial educational requirements or automatic removal of all high school science credits from their transcripts.
Facilis, we need to teach the strengths and weaknesses of the proof for god, and that the bible is inerrant. If you are consistent you will agree that the strengths and weaknesses should be taught.
Oh, and until you post citations from the peer reviewed primary scientific literature showing weaknesses in evolution, there aren’t any as far as you are concerned. Good luck, as there are hundreds of thousands of papers for you to wade through.
Pascale says “As a european i seriously can’t wrap my head around such thinking.”
Whether it is creationism or climate denial or denial of the risks of second-hand smoke, pretty much all anti-science idiocy has the same roots–ignorance, prejudice and preconceived ideas. In this case the motivation is religious, but self interest or mere complacency will serve as motivators as well.
We can still use your help, especially if you’re from Texas:
http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/texas-science-under-siege-help-if-you-can/
Give it time. With many of our elected politicians wanting to “me too” the Conservative US (and the Netherlands is no exception) and with islamophobia running unchecked it’ll simply be a matter of time before Christian fundamentalists rise to more prominent positions of power in European governments. We are by no means immune.
You were doing so well, until you forgot that scientific studies point to no statistically significant correlation between ETS and smoking related illnesses. Nice try tho’!
Hypothetical Conversation in Strengths/Weaknesses Science Class:
Creationist/ID Teacher: Each species had two survivors of a global flood who survived because they were on a large boat. This accounts for the current diversity of species that we observe. This explanation exposes a clear weakness in modern evolutionary theory, and shows that lots of time is not required to have all the biological diversity that we see today.
Curious Student: Wow, that seems like a lot of animals. How many animals were on the boat? Where can I learn more about this idea?
Creationist/ID Teacher: We can’t say for sure, but estimates range from approximately 15,000 to 50,000. You might be surprised to learn that the alternative theory is in the Bible. Here, you can use mine. Have a look at Gen. 6 & 7.
Curious student: Hmmm, it says here in Gen. 7:11-16 that all animals and people were loaded in one day. I did some math, and for 50,000 animals to be on the boat, that means that one animal had to be loaded every 1.7 seconds. How did that happen?
Creationist/ID Teacher: We don’t know for sure, but we know it happened. We know it happened because we believe it happened. Why don’t you talk to your parents about it, and if you’re interested in learning more, here is a card with our church information. Why don’t you come visit this next Sunday? Now class, let’s talk about the age of the earth…
This isn’t about science. It’s about evangelism, and the science classroom should not be abused as a pulpit.
@ Facilis:
Is that you, ScienceMinded? If not, the coincidental use of “weakness”, and total inability to grasp what is and isn’t science, is pretty uncanny. In fact, the responses to your comments are the same as well. When it comes to citing weaknesses in any theory that you don’t like, “Put up or shut up” = “or please shut the hell up”.
Pssst… most people confident in their positions use the same screen name on whatever blog they comment. So, no, I don’t even believe that you’ve got no interest in science education in TX. I suspect that the stakes are pretty high for you, in fact.
This hurts. I have lived in Texas all my life, and it feels like it’s being Talibanized. My BOE rep is Cynthia Dunbar. She just proposed changing “strengths and weaknesses” to “supportive and nonsupportive”, demonstrating her unwillingness to understand the issue at hand.
“[Ken Mercer] also charged that evolution advocates have a history of falsifying evidence and drawing erroneous conclusions to support their position.”
My irony meter just broke.
Josh #69
I have been thinking about counter amendments that would expose the creationists true agenda, and the best (which still includes the strengths and weaknesses language) is something like this
1) Teach theproportional strengths and weaknesses of scientific theory in the classroom. The proportional amounts will be determined by the amount of support in peer reviewed scientific literature.
2) Since the amount of time necessary to even introduce a topic is finite, we will institute a 5 minute minimum topic block. (other values, such as 10 minutes, would also work, but hurt their position even more)
3) Take the total amount of time for a subject, divide by the time to introduce a given topic, and that gives you the number of topics to devote to either strengths or weaknesses.
So, for example, the typical comment from biology teachers is that they get 3 days to cover evolution.
3 days * (50 minutes/day) * (1 topic/5 minutes) = 30 topics about evolution
The weakness they would like to teach take up less than 0.1% of peer reviewed literature:
0.1% * 30 blocks < 1 topic so, proportional to the strengths, the weakness would not be discussed at all in the given amount of time. If the students had a few semesters to study evolution, like a typical bio undergrad, then maybe they would have a class or two about these supposed weaknesses.
FSM forbid that anyone teach the strengths and weakness of any scientific dogma! After all, the practical nature of science leaves no room for corroboration of verifiable results and the testing of variables.
Y’all are welcome not to come to Texas, if it makes you “tired” to live among us, if you’re convinced we’re idiots or even if you’re adverse to discussion and debate about big controversies. Or if you just can’t tolerate us and some of the opinions of some of us.
Texas weather changes by the half hour and our voters sometimes change their minds that often. But we will debate in open forum, no matter how uncomfortable it makes the intolerant.
#80 That’s nice. However the main weakness of the cataclysmic flood “theory” of biodiversity is not so much the time it took to load the ark. It’s if all species for (land I presume) animals were decimated to a population of only 2, how did they manage to sustain themselves, and pull themselves back from borderline extinction? I mean there are 2000 Giant Pandas, and here in the 21st century, despite efforts to sustain them artificially, they’re struggling for survival.
Now I don’t want to sound like I’m using the “Why are there still monkeys” argument, but why are there still herbivores and flock animals? Surely they would have been eaten by carnivores in the first days to weeks after the flood?
Of course, and I know this is a touchy subject to certain Texans, but surely inbreeding would have eventually decimated any populations that managed to survive the first few days of carnage?
Randy, that’s an interesting idea. I’m going to think on that.
Would it be illegal for someone to pay for advertising stating that McLeroy’s beliefs are contrary to his practicing medicine?
Can I pull a “Courtier’s reply” here? I don’t see any of you guys citing peer-reviewed physics papers to point out weaknesses in “fine-tuning”.
What fine tuning?
And we are claiming any weaknesses to the science of “fine tuning”? No. You are claiming weaknesses to evolution. So the burden of proof is upon you. Either back your claims or drop them. Otherwise, you are behaving in the fashion that will cause PZ to ban you.
Explain how “fine-tuning” is supposed to be a weakness of evolution, let alone physics.
I was just trying to be snarky. I wasn’t claiming “fine-tuning” was a weakness.
Could someone claim they ere making a courtier’s reply to evolution? Or would that be a misapplication?
It needs to be established that the universe is “finely-tuned” first. As Steve Weinberg says, there’s nothing in the universe that seems finely tuned at all except dark energy – and we aren’t even sure that Dark Energy exists yet!
facilis,
The courtier’s reply is based on the idea that a counter-argument is invalid because the person proposing it hasn’t read all of the vast amounts of material made, not to support the original argument, but to distract people away from the fact there is no support for that argument.
If we were to tell you that your arguments against evolution were invalid because you haven’t read every book ever written about how cute pandas are you might be able to use it your defence.
[meta]
Great. Topic shift technique.
Nice segue from evolution to fine tuning, there.
Exactly, the criticism of Dawkins was that he had not partaken in reading advanced theology, to which the reply is that theology is a fictional discipline. If the idea has to be taken on faith, then it cannot be taken on it’s own merits.
You guys should watch this video. It is about peer-reviewed books and journals that support ID.
http://www.discovery.org/v/14
“peer-reviewed” books…? i’m no scientist, but i was under the impression that such things don’t exist in the scientific sense of peer-review (hint: having a bunch of buddies write reviews of it ain’t it)
Oh fuck, new identity, same boring, would-be provocative posts. I had a dose of crabs once. Modern science made it go away. If only there such a remedy for facilis.
The Discovery Institure. I rest my case.
What’s up with this formerly known as Facillis bit? A tard by any other name is still a tard. Which is all the peer review you deserve.
They do exist, but perhaps not the way people normally think of “books.” Sometimes a couple of people will decide they want to have a symposium with a bunch of talks on one issue. They’ll invite people to come give talks who have something to say on the subject at hand. Often, the speakers will be asked to contribute papers related to their talks that will be compiled as “chapters” in a book to come after the symposium. There will be an introduction and then a bunch of papers, which will function as chapters. But to read it, it’s like leafing through a journal; a bunch of technical articles bound together. Now, these are usually peer-reviewed, but quite often the review isn’t as formal or as rigorous as a manuscript will get from a journal. Sometimes people don’t even bother with the symposium. They just produce a thematic compilation of related papers.
If anyone is going to borrow my shtick, I ask that the person use some bloody wit.
Hey, Patricia, how is your new computer doing? Nerd was wondering what happened to you.
Not quite:
“He [facilis] is an unmoderated source of inanity” – Southend pier Feb ’09.
“Makes chicken pox seem intelligently designed” – Brighton Pier Jul ’08.
“Opposition to one’s ideas is only useful insofar as one respects the intellect of those who oppose them.” George Orwell, The Road to Wigan Pier 1937.
P.S. I may have made accidentally made the last quote up. The other two are accurate, however ;)
Janine – I have my computer back for the weekend…paid the bill on it, but it’s still screwy, so it goes back on Monday. The repairman thinks it got some really nasty bug, other than the ones he already removed.
What a pain! You’ll love this, the repairman started explaining to me what trolls are… :D
Did you have to explain to the repairman about one of your hobbies? Ha!
Good luck with having those demons exorcised from your computer.
poohsticks!If this is how Bill Gates treats his formatters, he doesn’t deserve to have any. (app O.Wilde)
Hopefully when the guy gets it back he’ll be able to get a better grip on what it’s doing.
How the heck I caught such a nasty bug is a mystery. Unless all the godbots prayers re: me are being answered. *snort*
i suspect that if the godbots’ prayers were being answered, you would have much much worse problems than computer glitches! Although, think – has one of your chickens gotten sick recently? That’ll be the prayers at work.
Incidentally, and obviously without googling, what, specifically is the definition of a “hen”? Most people find this a little baffling…
AnthonyK – The simplest use of the term ‘hen’, is a female chicken over the age of one year old. Which is why I call my chicks pullets. (Until May)
We did loose one of our Aussies two weeks ago. It looked like anti-freeze poisoning.
“”peer-reviewed” books…? i’m no scientist, but i was under the impression that such things don’t exist in the scientific sense of peer-review”
Other science books that do not exist
“The Starry Messenger” by Gallileo
“The origin of species” by Charles Darwin
In all seriousness I believe those books were peer-reviewed by a board at Cambridge university press before being published.
science books = peer reviewed literature. that can’t possibly be hard to understand?
though “the origin of species” might well be a borderline case
Yes, but…the definition I had in mind was that a “hen” is simply a “chicken that lays eggs” – and you didn’t mention egg-laying! Does that mean….that you don’t even know what a hen is? *sits back, fanning himself, suffering from “the vapours”*
I am seriously beginning to doubt your poultryculture qualifications. With the onset of spring you should have drained your chickens (and hens) weeks ago.
Oh she got drained alright. Poor thing, when we opened up her brisket (for lack of a better term) antifreeze poured out.
You’ve got to be a pretty sick bastard to poison a chicken.
This was on purpose?
Reminds me of the asshole kids who would tie firecracker to cats and dogs.
I’m sorry to hear that. With the relative rarity of genuinely sick bastards you probably have a fair idea of who it was. And I bet they’re religious.
and why do i have such a hard time with = and != lately…?
Other things being equal, you should have no problems at all.
smartass
also: the time-out after each post is not very conductive to multi-thread conversations *sigh*
Yet an other victim of Chimpy’s Cooties. Sad. Really.
Yes, we’re sure it was on purpose. We police the yard every day to see if someone has thrown trash or anything else over the fence.
My pullets love people, and they run up to the fence to greet anyone. It could be religiously motivated (black chickens are considered Satanic by some cultures) but we aren’t ready to press that yet.
…and enslaved by others….*laughs darkly*
Hey, that’s right! I forgot about the Chimp’s cooties.
Aha! This whole computer glitch is the Chimps fault. A Cootie Curse. :D
Well, he does work in IT. Doesn’t he?
Perhaps you might consider using ≠.
Symbolist Heresy!
if i can’t keep two basic symbols straight, what makes you think i won’t completely fail at exotic symbols?
Light candles and incense, put on Eastern music, close your eyes, and relax. They will come to you.
And remember – failure and success are the same thing!
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
you’re still a smartass
;o – and your point is?
that was my point
that was my point
It would seem that this blog is infested with smart asses.
Did I ever tell the story about the man who taught his asshole to talk?
Which particular creationist does it refer to?
As for smartasses, thanks for noticing. I do have a particularly elevated BQ.
bnuckols @ #85
As a fellow Texan I’ll tell you what makes everyone “tired.” It’s that this so-called debate is and has been over. It was a tired issue when I was a child. Reasonable people every where look at Texas and can’t believe that we are doing this AGAIN.
In truth I’m a bit ashamed of us all. Hell, I’ll take some of the blame. My SBOE memmber got her law degree at Regent University, one of 2009’s highest ranked Online Christian Universities. We deserve this crap.
And Dude, the weather here is just like anywhere else, we ain’t that special.