Do you want 50 reasons you shouldn’t believe in evolution? I think the list pretty well covers all the real reasons people are creationists.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Do you want 50 reasons you shouldn’t believe in evolution? I think the list pretty well covers all the real reasons people are creationists.
I encounter #3 a lot. And #17, too.
The
articlejournal entry has a nice tone. I’d easily give it a 9/10.That’s just awesome.
…Because if I don’t know what happened, the Flying Spaghetti Monster must exist.
…Because I believe “Sex Theory” and “Stork Theory” deserve equal time, and the “strengths and weakness” of each should be explored.
…Because no scientist will ever tell me whether (s)he is related to monkeys through his mom or his dad.
…Because it is not what the Koran says.
…Because Darwinists won’t admit their belief is based on faith.
Hey boss, I am like, totally spilling the beans on you on the second of the Brazilian religious evil threads. Check it our ot suffer…..
I particularly like #6
Aaaand there goes all the respect I had for Ron Paul.
One should not believe in evolution. One should think about it and become convinced. That was an interesting list, and fairly comprehensive.
How many licks does it take to reach the center of a Tootsie Pop anyway?
The next time someone brings up “transition fossils” I’m going to point out that since they have no transitional pictures of their kids, I must assume that they have had hundreds of children, all at different ages at different points in time.
Sorry, I forgot some important ones.
…Because scientific advances in biology lead to debauchery, homosexuality and the Holocaust.
…Because Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin are good looking.
…Because I have been to Ken Ham’s museum and I believe that Fred Flintstone had a dino for a car.
…Because fruit flies are still fruit flies.
…Because I have never seen a cat turn into a dog.
…Because banana peels are color-coded, motherfuckers!
I think it is a fake. All the words were spelled correctly.
… because (+) tastes like jeebus’ hairy skin
Wow. That’s good stuff.
Getting the point across and being snarky as all hell.
That’s a double win.
Prediction. Simon doesn’t get it.
@12:
Astute observation.
I think… the article in question… might be a POE! Damn, I’m good.
…because it hurts grandma’s feelings coupled with the fact that I live in Tennessee.
@14:
Fact. Simon doesn’t get any.
(Okay, that sucked, but at least I tried.)
25.) is the best.
To counteract this we’ve expounded on several of 101 atheist quotes here –>http://www.tompainesghost.com/2009/03/religion-is-stale-and-rigid-life-is-not.html
20, 21, and 22 explain everything.
I’m not a biologist, and this one puzzled me:
Or more accurately, the term atavism puzzled me. Generalissimo Google™ to the rescue! Once I realised it just means “tendency to revert to ancestral type”, there wasn’t any problem.
I’m conflicted as to whether or not the usual of “technical” terms like that is a good or bad thing. Bad, perhaps, in the sense the deluded won’t (presumably) understand what is being said; Good, in the sense it’s (presumably accurately) making a concise and valid point. And finding out what something you don’t know is (like I did), is one of the things the deluded don’t, as a rule, seem to do (see reasons 2 and 3, and perhaps 9 and 50, in the list).
I particularly like this one:
Minor quibble over the use of the word “theory” in that one, especially given reason 11.
…Because, it makes baby Jesus cry.
Very well done!
Stu
Bah! “Usage”, not “usual”. Shoots fing—
…Because I have to impress my religious peers by being more fundy than they are.
It seems Bobbie-The-Jean has mad skills in the art of Chainsaw Writing. Cool!
blf,
It isn’t -for- the deluded. They’ll just start singing about rubber and glue and who and what various things stick to. I like it because it can educate us science groupies. All win no downside.
I read five as being from a fundie point of view.
Hey, I do not believe in evolution because I am GAWD.
What? Oh, yes nurse, I will take my meds now. No, no, I am not writing on Pharyngula again, I swear…NO NO, not the shock pads again!!!!!!
Don’t forget the MUCH MORE PROFOUND MYSTERY which EVILUTION CANNOT EXPLAIN – how do they get the Caramilk in the Caramilk Bar?
As a long-time member of deviantART I just had to comment on that post.:
#1 should read:
Because I never had it properly taught to me and initially seems quite an implausible theory.
It is, of course, preaching to the choir. And it achieves little apart from making us feel superior, and conjuring up a climate in which it’s socially acceptable to revel in nastiness. I don’t think it’s something to be encouraged.
Pete, would you let PZ post at your blog?
Erasmus is correct.
Damn petey that’s not half bad. Though I don’t see how it seems implausible. Only in the light of being indoctrinated with the idea that the earth is 6000 years old and good poofed Adam and Eve into existence maybe.
But yes, having it taught to you incorrectly or not at all is an issue.
*Must… not… fangirl…. must… not *FLAIL-FLAIL-FLAIL-FLAIL-FLAIL* SSSSQQQQUUUUUEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I couldn’t help it. I adore this site and I’m a big PZ fandork. Imagine my profound friggin surprise at finding a link to my silly little journal here on *flail* Pharyngula!!!
I assure you, there will be much more flailing, probably for the rest of the day, at least.
I hold on… by my rapidly slipping fingertips…to the notion that jeebus blurbling is actually a socially enforced default setting…
It would mean that there are far more atheists in the bible belt then could ever be imagined and the reason not yet recognised is that they are terrified of being outed in a group of slavering retards that would whup their jeebus hating ass for not towing the line…even though the whuppers are of the same secret atheist mind as the whupee!!
This raises the probable fact that there is only one true jeebus lovin xian in the states…he is a retired former President and well known as a pretzel guzzler!
Is life not ironic?
39.) Because evolution means that I absolutely MUST reject everything else I know, abandon all my beliefs, and start aping around my house like a fucking monkey. OOOh-ooohh-ooohohh -OOOOOOHHHHHH!!!!!
I think “abandon all my beliefs” is probably the most important reason there are millions of creationists in America. Especially the belief in heaven. These retards have spent their entire lives believing people are special, so special that they are the only species that goes to heaven (of course the idea that any species goes to a heaven is insane bullshit). Creationists correctly believe “evolution = no heaven” because evolution means people are just one small branch on the tree of life, and they’re not special at all.
Creationists can’t accept “no heaven” because they’re cowards. They’re so terrified that death is final they will reject any scientific evidence that conflicts with life after death.
Of course another very important reason for the vast number of American creationists is the average American is more stupid than a dog.
Perhaps someone could explain to them that humans are like Italian and chimps are like French….we both came from Latin (which isn’t around anymore except in fossil form).
yay Bobbie Jean Squeeeeee away, you deserve it.
That was awesome.
initially seems quite an implausible theory.
What, *exactly*, seems implausible about it?
25.) Because I don’t realize that saying “microevolution is possible but macroevolution isn’t” is as stupid as saying “I can pick my nose for one second but I cannot pick it for 10 seconds.”
This is becoming one of my favorites, I tend to see this when talking with more ‘educated’ christians (able to read their own name, and maybe went to, at maximum, one of those bible colleges where they ‘learn’ stuff.
… because I never found a bug in a freshly-opened jar of peanut butter.
You earned it. Good work. LMAO
I have to agree with Erasmus on this. I mean it’s all good fun but it really doesn’t achieve anything apart from making us feel better and alienating those on the fence. I think this whole issue needs to be dealt with using a LITTLE more humility. Nobody likes arrogance and the more we sound arrogant the more the fence sitters are going to lean the other way.
sng, Yes, the list isn’t directly aimed at the delusional. And some of the items are certainly from the deluded’s point-of-view (PoV). I see your point about the use of “theory” in 5 as being in that PoV, especially since it neatly fits in with the cognitive discourse illustrated by this:
I don’t agree we are “categorically defined and classified as apes.” Any more than we are classified as monkeys, as reptiles, or as fish.
We are, however, classified as Hominoidea.
Making the assumption that all everyday words referring to animal classifications are monophyletic doesn’t help our cause in any way, in my opinion.
Oh noes@32,45! Attack of the concern trolls!
Knockgoats, don’t forget the idiot concern troll @34.
Try Nisbet’s blog folks if you don’t like our tone.
NOR,OM @ #33 writes:
Good point, but it’s lost on Pete. Of course he wouldn’t let PZ or any of us post on his “blog.” He loves trolling on other sites, but then insulates himself from the same treatment.
A cowardly hypocrite, that’s our Pete.
Nerd,
Hmm, I’d classify Rooke more as a concern ghoul I think!
If Pete won’t let PZ post on his blog uncensored, then it is also against the Golden Rule since Pete expects different behavior than he gives. Which makes Pete go against his own bible and religion. That should be worth a weeks worth of penance right there.
Regarding #32,45 – Humility just gets your teeth kicked in. Rights and freedom come from pushing. Woman’s Rights and Civil Rights and rights for the LGBT community did not come, limited as they often still are, by saying, “Uh, please, if it is not any trouble, can I be treated like a human being?”.
Slavery, which still exists in spots around the world, was never defeated by asking Massuh for freedom.
The religious right and fundamentalist do not give a damn what we think, so we might as well have some fun while fighting for the minds of our children and the dignity of the human race.
Bobbie Jean – Nice work!
Ciao y’all
It’s not just Christians. #28 and 48 describe every neo-pagan I’ve ever known. #49 and 50, too, for that matter.
Aren’t you being a concern troll yourself, regarding concern trolls? :)
I have to say I was completely unimpressed by the journal entry. I like humor, I like satire, and I agree with the overall opinion. I just thought it came off as ridiculously childish. Satire is funny and effective when it has some subtlety, when it actually is somewhat believable that the person you are satiring might say such a thing. Example:
That’s just lame. Why bother with pretending to be the other side when you then just use vitriolic words against their point of view, as if they said it? If you think Ken Ham etc are asses (which I agree with), just say it directly, don’t pretend the other side says it, because you come off (to be blunt) as stupid as them.
Knockgoats #51, right as usual.
Dearest concern trolls,
Bobbie Jean is writing for the ~100-200 people who read her journals. Not the New York Times. Some sharpened sticks of snark are entirely warranted. She gets to decide what’s appropriate for her audience.
You don’t have to like it! PZ liked it. If you prefer a different tone, there are hundreds of other blogs you can read instead of Pharyngula. Life is too short to spend your times somewhere you’re unhappy. Our lives are too short to be spent listening to you complain.
Kindly fuck off.
your sexiest dead president, JFK.
This has a chance of getting some momentum on Digg if anyone is so inclined.
Hey rookie, still trolling the internet?
Of course Erasmus here has missed a point: idiots like you can’t be reasoned with. It’s been tried many times and failed. Mocking them is a better idea.
So tell me. Each living thing being born to parents like them and changing slowly over time is implausible. But living things being “poofed” into existence out of nowhere is plausible? I guess it never dawns on you why people laugh at you.
”
3.) Because if I can’t immediately understand how something works, then it must be bullshit.
”
Unless previously indoctrinated against it, I doubt many would have problems with it.
I certainly didn’t. It’s simplicity made sense. For me intuitively because ‘simplicity precedes complexity’, even if it took 30 years before I heard someone formulate it as such.
Comment#21
41.) Because I don’t know what an atavism is.
—
That one actually works quite well as is because, like #21 and myself, most people will be compelled to look up the word. Personally I used Wikipedia, but to the same result, atavism by itself constitutes proof of evolution.
The list was awesome. It mixes everything up in a nice and interesting way.
And although #37 “I have never seen a duck evolve into a cat over night”… it might help to explain the ever increasing number of cats in and around my house.
I didn’t know what atavism was either.
OK youngsters listen up.
It takes three licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
rob #55
Ken Ham runs a multi-million dollar museum in which The Flintstones is treated as a documentary. Saying “Uh, Mr. Ham, Sir, perhaps you are wrong about dinosaurs coexisting with humans” will not get you very far with Ham or his followers. We’ve played nice with creationists and it doesn’t work.
Yes, it would be nice if both sides were nice to each other. But since the creationists have a habit of lying about evolution, they have forfeited any consideration about evolutionists being nice to them. At least we only ridicule them, we don’t lie.
Anyway, rob, your concern is note.
Only if you’re an owl wearing a mortarboard hat.
Wait, I thought deoxyribonucleic acid was what caused all those bad trips at Woodstock.
Tis Himself – Are you disputing Prof. Owl’s research? Be careful, you’re on the verge of scoffing at a gospel truth. *snort*
No way, I have a deviantART! What’re the chances?!
It was. If you didn’t have any, you wouldn’t have been there to have had all those bad trips…
“Because banana fits snugly in my ass — sorry my hand.”
Damn. She was doing so brilliantly.
This one should really be amended to something like:
…when it really means: a well-supported (by a large body of facts, and often tying together multiple supported hypotheses) explanation of certain phenomena.
at #45
Humor for humor’s sake is achievement enough. If the fence sitters are turned to one side or the other because of arrogance, they weren’t really thinking too hard about the issue to begin with.
And creationists don’t feel superior and revel in nastiness?
If Charles Darwin is descended from Erasmus Darwin, why is Erasmus still around?
But yeah, the rest of it appears at quick scan to be absolute fucking poetry.
This one had me rolling:
Just letting you guys know that I am observing some of these critiques and do intend to make some adjustments. I won’t be sticked and stoned for that, will I?
Gee Bobbie Jean, that sounds like what a scientist would do. Adjust his ideas after some criticism. Go for it.
I wouldn’t take the critiques too much. i found it pretty funny as is. As long as you keep the humor and don’t techie it up too much I think you are fine.
bobxxxx said: Creationists can’t accept “no heaven” because they’re cowards. They’re so terrified that death is final they will reject any scientific evidence that conflicts with life after death.
while I agree that fear is an important motivator in this for the true believer I see no need to feel superior or to denigrate anyone for feeling fearful. I do not yell at children who are fearful nor do I laugh at them because I’m not afraid.
If people do not understand what you are saying calling them stupid is not going to get them to want to understand you.
It is exasperating for me when getting into a discussion with someone who turns out to be a creationist how profoundly ignorant they tend to be and how resistant they are to understanding science and “reality based” thinking. Once in a while I can muster the patience to make the attempt and try to explain it again but not often. I am usually so amazed that someone who I thought of as being somewhat intelligent is that ignorant that I am completely overwhelmed and have no idea what to say.
snarky lists re some what entertaining but not really that helpful, while I do find the discussions here especially when they involve some believers very helpful to me.
I do not feel so surprised when I hear things I would never think of said by people who think they make sense and I am still able to think instead of standing there with my mouth hanging open speechless!
Josh @71 and Bobbie Jean
Grammar check
Regardless of which version of #12 you use, there should not be a :(colon) after the word “means.”
Bobbie Jean @ # 36: … there will be much more flailing …
Oooh, could you post a video? Squeeee!!!
Patricia @ # 63: please post a video of your licking technique. Double Squeeeeeee!!!!
Disclaimer: Not a scientist so I happy with the humor however not perfectly scientific it may be
Bobbie Jean – From another females point of view – it’s funny. Your critics can get stuffed.
Only way you can get to the centre of a Tootsie-Pop in three licks is if you have a cat’s tongue. Patricia?
I have this cat, you see, and most every time I pet her, she licks my wrist. It’s enough to take flesh off a femur.
uncle frogy (#78) wrote “If people do not understand what you are saying calling them stupid is not going to get them to want to understand you.”
For the record I was calling creationists stupid (because they are stupid) on an atheist pro-science blog. I was not talking to any creationists when I said that. Right now I am visiting a pro-magic blog and I’m being very respectful, not that that’s doing any good. Creationism is an incurable disease. Being nice and being patient doesn’t work when dealing with creationists. Nothing works. Nothing works because an idiot will always be an idiot.
JohnnieCanuck – Er no, actually you bite. *smiles sweetly*
@ScarletLetter
Fuck. Yep.
@Bobbie Jean. Patrica is right. It’s fucking funny. I wouldn’t worry about it. The definition of theory is a button for me. I sort of forgot it was humor when I locked and loaded that critique. Sorry: I’m working on a manuscript. I’ve been seeing edits on the damn bus signs as they pass by.
Fuck off with this lame comparison to the civil rights movement as if any rights are violated or atheists are segregated or any of that crap. The secular humanist crap pretending like they are so oppressed gets quite annoying.
Now I wait until the cultish humanists prove my point by claiming I’m a creationist, or a Christian, or anything just as wrong and dumb.
Highly satisfying on the Snark-o-meter™, and yes, mean as Ann Coulter before her morning estrogen shot.
But . . .
Who built that Deviant Art site? Hello Kitty? Scanning through the comments section has made my blood-sugar skyrocket. That is the most flagrant case of hypercute emoticon overdose and web babytalk I’ve ever seen on a site that wasn’t designed for little Japanese schoolgirls. And don’t get any ideas about sprucing up Pharyngula with darling little squids . . . <:E
How about, you are just wrong and dumb?
I summon raven to re-post her sobering list in reply to #87.
“Troll” and variant bullshit pejoratives are often used to stigmatize anyone who offers a viewpoint that the majority don’t welcome. In this case it is wholly without content. I’m not attempting to troll, I’m just saying I’m fed-up with this childish gloating. Every educated person knows the creationists are dead wrong; there is no need to go on and on and on about how vile are the creationists.
What strikes me most about that article is the gratuitous use of the word “fuck”. I don’t think I’m prudish or mealy-mouthed, but to me it just comes off as gutter-mouthed and trailer-trash. At the very least it seems to greatly exaggerate the amount of anger and vitriol required to deal with the creationists.
In response to #73: no, to be honest, I don’t think the creationists do anywhere near this perverse amount of trumpet-blowing. And even if they did, that wouldn’t mean you’re right to do it.
Patricia and JohnnieCanuck –
The world may never know.
#51. Because I actually understand evolutionary theory and accept it. I just feel like fucking around with your mind.
Is AndrewC (@87) for real or is it a parody/something so clever it’s flown over my head? In any case, WTF has it to do with Bobbie Jean’s very clever list? And Bobbie Jean, Patricia’s right, there isn’t really any adjustment needed. Good job!
Pierce R. Butler – See Katrina at #92 you saucy kniggit. ;)
*clenched-tentacle salute*
for Bobbie Jean!!!
Concern trolls: she has the right and obligation to express herself the way she wants to. Did you miss the “ART” at the top of the page? It’s not a Step Forward for the Cause, it’s a piece of self-expression, and it’s funny and whip-smart. Point 2: she’s a kid. Her commenters are kids. Not that there’s anything wrong with that–I was a kid, have a kid, and wish I still was one sometimes–but so jeez, back off. Check out her art page–she’s got talent. I hope my kid exhibits some of that kind of attitude and initiative when she’s older.
Billie Jean: You don’t owe nobody nothing. You deserve the nice things people have said above. Fix the science if you want but don’t touch the style (“fuck” is a perfectly good English word, pearl-clutchers be fucked). And rock on.
#91- “I’m not attempting to troll, I’m just saying I’m fed-up with this childish gloating. Every educated person knows the creationists are dead wrong; there is no need to go on and on and on about how vile are the creationists.”
Erasmus makes the assumption that creationists are just a bunch of harmless dumb people, and we’re just being mean laughing at them.
Maybe he needs to take another look at the wedge document, or add up the number of “Academic freedom” bills that have cropped up around the country, or the appalling attack on science and education by the Bush administration, and the corresponding breakdown of constitutional law in this country by same. All with those harmlessly funny fundies organized support and approval.
We call that treason here, Erasmus. Laughing at them is one way of counteracting their corrosive influence. Because their stated goal is to make a whole lot less educated people who will see them for the anti-American theocrats that they really are.
OK, time for coffee.
Erasmus @91: Ok, being snarky and foul-mouthed doesn’t help endear us to ignorant people, but that’s not really the point of this blog (or, i imagine, the link in this post). Pharyngula is a community centered around science and atheism, and sometimes after having to respond to the same creationist bullshit over and over again, some of us feel the need to bitch about it. And yes, that often includes cursing, because “Golly gee, this creationist student that disrupted my class today was being really gosh-darn inconsiderate of those who wanted to learn” just doesn’t have the same bite as “Fucking creationists ruining shit for everyone…”
Your concern is noted. And bear in mind that I’m actually quite polite when talking to creationists, as I really would prefer to educate them than reinforce their view of those who accept evolution as evil, nihilistic, puppy-eaters. But when that’s all over, I have to let the exasperation out somehow, and jokes like this are great for that sort of thing.
BobbyJean…awesome list! Keep up the humor for those of us who need it, and don’t mind those who think it’s inappropriate. (though I will second Josh’s vote to correct the definition of theory)
Yes andrew, you are a christofascist creationist troll. That is however not your most salient point.
Two days ago, an Oklahoma state representative filed a Resolution against Richard Dawkins for being an evolutionary biologists and daring to speak at OU. They really would rather have a witch hunt and burn him at the stake of course. But Dawkins is old and British and it wouldn’t be much of a hunt.
Seven or eight states have laws forbiding atheists from holding public, elected offices and some of them forbid atheists from testifying in court. All quite unconstitutional but they are in no hurry to repeal those statutes.
@#87
It’s not about rights for atheists, dumbass. It’s about rights that are denied to people deemed “evil.” You know, the whole gays not being allowed to marry or adopt children, abortions should be outlawed (therefore denying women the right to a safe abortion), etc.
Being a darkie, gay, atheist, or evolutionary biologist in the wrong place can get you beat up, fired, or even killed. Here is a running tally of evolutionary biologists, which are not the same as atheists. Not that the fundies are smart enough or really care to make the distinction.
With fundies there are so many groups to hate and so little time. I suppose they would rather just kill them all and let god sort if out. Pity that the mean old secular authorities took away their armies and heavy weapons.
@ Pat, OM
Do you live anywhere near Wyoming? Can I hang out with you? Your comments are blowin’ me away today! Holy friggin’ crap, most fun I’ve had in weeks.
Rick R, #91:
Nah, I don’t buy this stuff about “treason” and the alleged “appalling attack on science and education”. Be realistic. The creationists only threaten in a handful of states. They have had to resort to “teach the controversy”. They have to package their creationism as Intelligent Design. It hardly seems to me that future of civilization hangs on a knife-edge.
Even when they are successful, I’m skeptical that the effect is very important. Most kids don’t listen in school. The ones that do listen tend to worry only about whether the taught material will be on the test. The result is that in places where evolution is taught, very few people seem to come away with a good appreciation of what it is and what it achieves.
And even if they did, so what? Evolution is unimportant in the day-to-day lives of almost everyone. It gives one a better philosophical comprehension of the world, but then so does relativity theory or Chomskyian linguistics. There’s lots of interesting knowledge out there, and I don’t see any reason to act as if Darwinian evolution is somehow pre-eminent among this knowledge. Maybe it is, but that’s just a sort of aesthetic preference. Hardly any justification for the bile fests we occasionally witness on Pharyngula.
Sorry, that last post was addressed to #97, not #91.
Erasmus- “Nah, I don’t buy this stuff about “treason” and the alleged “appalling attack on science and education”. Be realistic. The creationists only threaten in a handful of states. They have had to resort to “teach the controversy”. They have to package their creationism as Intelligent Design. It hardly seems to me that future of civilization hangs on a knife-edge.”
That’s fine. Your use of the word “alleged” tells me all I need to know. As we’ve said countless times here to creationist trolls who have wandered in, “your ignorance isn’t evidence”.
There’s lots of interesting knowledge out there, and I don’t see any reason to act as if Darwinian evolution is somehow pre-eminent among this knowledge. – Erasmus
“Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” – T. Dobzhansky
I would add to that medicine and agricultural science (both of which have some significance for everyday life), all the human sciences, history, and most of the useful parts of philosophy (I speak as a non-biologist, more familiar with some of these additional areas). For its revolutionary effect on human thought, no idea ever conceived rivals the theory of evolution by natural selection. If you can’t see this, that’s your loss.
Now THAT’S funny.
The biggest problem with creationists, besides their never ending attempts to dumb down science education, is they ruin the lives of their own children with magical creation bullshit. This is child abuse and I don’t think this problem should be ignored.
You’ve missed the point, Erasmus. We’re not claiming evolution is pre-eminent, just that it should be allowed to be taught, unencumbered by religious dogma. Although I’m not a historian, I would be just as angry if there was a movement to infuse history class with religious lessons. (Obviously, religion plays a role in history, and I don’t mind discussing that. But there doesn’t need to be any theological discussion, or ‘White Christians were able to take over the Americas because God wanted things that way’ kind of talk.) The problem here seems to be that creationists have singled out evolution as their pet cause, so this is where the battle is being fought. If they start assaulting history, or any other subject, you can bet that the fight will shift accordingly.
Every educated person knows the creationists are dead wrong – Erasmus
Fucking untrue, as I fucking know from fucking personal fucking acquaintance, for fuck’s sake.
Erasmus, I actually read your responses, wasting valuable time. If you do not like it here, why remain? If you cannot laugh, how do you get through the day? How can you not see that humour and contempt is a better weapon than asking for another blow to the cheek is what I really want to know. However, in deference to your tender sensibilities, I will only wish for you to go fornicate with a rhino in a pit full of sand. Killfiled, so any response will not be read.
Oh, and AndrewDiceC, I thought about engaging you further, but you just are not worth the time. Fornicate off. Killfiled as per above.
Ciao
DTdNav @102 – Sorry I missed your post…was off trying to save AnthonyK from jelly abuse with ginger ale, but the poor boy sinned anyway. *sigh*
I’ve been to Devils Tower, but I live in Oregon. :)
*wonders away to clean sprong off ruby slippers*
cactusren,
“evil, nihilistic, puppy-eaters” But braised puppy is SO good.
Yes, you’re only proving my point. Branding me a creationist merely because I disagree that creationism is sufficiently dangerous that we should come together into little cliques like this and talk about how wretched they are every day . Fundamentalist tactics, just as disgraceful as the shit you condemn.
Yeah, more fundamentalist tactics. I don’t think we should egg on a vitriolic, gutter-mouthed, unnecessary tirade, therefore I “cannot laugh”.
The idea that arrogance pushes people away is nonsense. Look at religion itself. The very thing that attracts people to it is the arrogance, the surety and the fact that they claim to have all the answers. Look at one of the most common attacks on science; “Scientists always say things like probably! You’re not sure!”. Confidence attracts people, sitting quietly in the corner and hoping the popular kids will come talk to you didn’t work in high school and it sure as hell doesn’t work now.
Ciaphas:
I’d say “amen”, but I think you know why I won’t. The idea that arrogance pushes people away IS nonsense. Look at the leaders of huge mega-churches and the charisma that lures people in. Those people are bound together by one big, unifying notion: That in the future, they will all be together in Heaven, each with his or her mansion made of gold, each wearing a crown, each only too happy to take pity on those of us who didn’t dedicate our human lives to their God.
They’re arrogant as fuck, but my repulsion to that arrogance alone is not what made me an atheist. It was a start in the right direction, sure, but it didn’t “drive [me] away”. But it’s that arrogance that makes them stronger, unfortunately.
Incidentally, this “the fate of humanity hangs in the balance” line of rationalization is quite possibly older than Treebeard. If you’re looking for an excuse to roll around in venom, or to feel smug and superior, the obvious thing to do is to demonize some group X by acting as if its existence is a threat to civilization. I needn’t give examples.
The ubiquity of creationism in the US is cause for concern, I grant you, but you are simply kidding yourself if you think it is dangerous enough to justify all this daily anger, as if you’re the French Resistance coming together to enunciate your hatred for the Nazis.
Erasmus, just curious, where do you live?
I’m from England, whose evolution education is supposedly copacetic. There was no ID shit anywhere to be seen in the syllabus, yet evolution was covered in only one or two hours. And I did five years of biology at a good school.
So, my point: Are the places where evolution is being taught really much better off than the places where “Teach the controversy” holds sway? I doubt it.
WRT the critiques, I would suggest that number 11 needs a reference of some sort to making predictions about what will be discovered in the future.
Erasmus:
I think I missed the post where someone mentioned the fate of humanity being on the line here. Could you kindly point it out?
As for me (I won’t pretend to speak for anyone else here), this has nothing to do with the fate of humanity. But the ignorance of creationists makes me sad. It’s such a small, dull world that they live in where the answer to all questions is “Goddidit”. And for those who are open-minded enough to listen, I’d like to try and teach them some science. As for those who are stubborn and won’t listen, and tell me I’m a liar (“You didn’t really find those fossils–you must have carved them out of the rock”), I think I have the right to be angry at them. I’m not talking about the ultimate fate of humanity–I’m concerned with people who insult me and what I do in the here and now. And sometimes you just have to laugh at them, or you’ll go crazy.
Rev@118
up his own ass?
Erasmus, my daughter’s Biology teacher (High School) refuses (right now) to teach human evolution to her students. Because she does not believe in it. In Utah. Sigh. Educated = what?
@Erasmus
Incidentally, this “you’re all overreacting” line of rationalization is quite possibly older than Treebeard. If you’re looking for an excuse to feel smug and superior, the obvious thing to do is to belittle some group X by acting as if it’s claiming something is a threat to civilization. I needn’t give examples.
What would you consider “discrimination” then, if not the way atheism and atheists are casually treated by society and the media? Or are you one of those fucking morons who thinks that all it takes to create “equality” is the absence of an official, explicit legal policy of preference for one group (and that condition isn’t even satisfied)?
Then you’re wrong.
Hey, Erasmus, your other name wouldn’t be Jon Howard, would it?
I fear “the French, coming together to enunciate your hatred for the Kaiser” would be a more accurate way of looking at it.
Few people realize the irony behind #1:
“1.) Because I don’t like the idea that we came from apes… despite that humans are categorically defined and classified as apes.”
Why is this ironic?
Because the first man to classify humans as apes WAS a creationist, decades before Darwin was even born.
When creationists deny this, they are not only ignorant of biology, but of their own historical background. They should in turn be proud that one of their own actually correctly labeled humans as such.
You do appear to be prudish, which would be fine, if you would keep it to your self.
You certainly are a classist piece of shit, though. Pick your elitist, reich-wing, class-baiting ass up and get the fuck out. No one likes you, and no one cares what you think. You are not welcome here.
May you be turned out of your home twice, by lenders and by squatters. May you be robbed of your car, your shoes, and your identity. May you shiver to your death in a windswept alley, your last weary cries ignored by passers-by. May dogs relieve themselves on your stinking corpse, and may you be lost and forgotten forever in an unmarked grave.
#51 because a billion years isn’t a long enough time for shit to happen.
Woah talk about hostilty towards a different viewpoint! Ok let me just get this straight, I am in absolutely no way saying that nothing needs to be dome about the ugly head of creationism, and I do not agree with Erasmus in the lack of importance of evolutionary biology. What I’m saying is if we want to win this war I think we need to show more dignity. Not humilty, not pascifism, but maturity and dignity. To pretend that we’re talking about this in a private sphere that can’t be seen by those wanting to turn people against us is extremely naive. It’s not the original article I have a problem with. Satire and comedy is healthy and welcome delivered in the right way, which this is. I think it’s a superb list but it’s the way people pick something like this up and run with it, ending up sounding like playground bullies. I just think a better tactic is to listen to why the fence sitters have doubts and address them in a respectable manner and educate them a little bit. The fundies won’t be convinced but they will use places like this to turn those in the middle onto their side. Richard used that motion in oklahama to point out an irony and had a little joke at its expense nut he didn’t go over the top. In “the genius of Charles Darwin” he listened tontje students with doUbts and educated them instead. That’s what I believe is the image we should all portray and stick to. Yes, make fun of the stupid ideas but don’t go over the top and forget to back it up with a reasoned argument as to why they’re stupid. Show some class and don’t forget that the people you look up to and respect and listen to have that quality in spades. I want to win this war as much as anyone so let’s treat it as one and take them on.
PS this can be easily misquoted creationist style but please don’t!
Andysin: There’s no reason we cannot do both. You have your methods, I have mine. Also, fuck dignity *MOON*
At post #129:
An absolutely disgusting and unjustified response.
Just what any ignorant concern troll like yourself deserves. If you don’t like our tone, there are other blogs out there. Find one closer to your desired tone, or you will take much more abuse before you get driven off. Pharyngula isn’t for wimps.
Bobbie jean, I lol’d! Haha. But I don’t think you’ve got me right. I like this list, think it’s bloody funny and not at all going to harm our cause.
Bobbie Jean: good, nay, excellent job!
bobxxxx @ 84:
#134
WTF?? How does suggesting a different tactic to achieve a common goal deserve that?? I love pharyngula and I’m not going anywhere. My concern is for all of us who want to bring down creationism, not for the feelings of creationists! I couldn’t care less what they think but I want people to listen to US. All of us! It’s damn important that we win and we need to use the best tactics. I’m just not sure the attitudes portrayed are the best tactic. It’s not educating anyone. The list is great because it’s funny and it draws much needed attention to the ‘controversy’, but it needs to be used as the start a serious discussion with doubters or people who aren’t aware of the situation. I’m just not convinced it will be. My concern is in the same vein as those who think the atheist bus slogans could’ve been a little bit better.
And I read this blog for PZ’s posts, not the user’s comments.
Bobbie Jean, #36
You mean to tell us whales have sentient, female penises that impell air through a rapid rotary motion?
(Why yes, I do take medication.)
It’s not even necessary to alienate you by branding you a creationist. You are doing this yourself by trying to act superior, telling us what we should or shouldn’t do and comparing us with fundamentalists. Do you honestly believe that that course of action was going to make your point?
If that was not what you were trying to do, your concern is noted. There’s no more reason for you to remain. Please, leave. :D
And yet, you cannot leave!! :D
Humm good question. I don’t know, but can can for sure say that the places where the forces of ignorance represented by the creationists hold power are in fact places where willful ignorance and superstition rule. Places where facts and evidence and reason based thinking suffer.
And where reason and critical thinking suffer, everyone suffers.
But maybe you are correct. maybe we should lie down and be nice. Maybe we shouldn’t expose liars as liars. Maybe we should shut up and try and get along with people who’s intent is to undermine the very things that have helped our society progress. Maybe so.
Here is a concern troll template if anyone is feeling the need for some serious trolling and don’t want to come up with an argument:
Enjoy! :D
Bobbie Jean,congrats and well done !!
As to tone of discussion in here,while I disagree with erasmus and andysin,and I can say from personal experience that it is often quite unbelievable for non-US folks to fully understand the extent to which creationism or religion influences public life in the USA,I think calls for who should post here and who should go away should come from PZ,and PZ alone.
Im actually quite a bit appalled at some of the responses,I think we can do better.
cicely wrote: I have to disagree; creationism is not incurable.
You’re right and perhaps I should have said “creationism is usually incurable, especially if the victim is an adult.”
I think if a person is able to throw out creationism, he or she is going to do that at a young age. If they get older and still haven’t recovered from their religious brainwashing, it’s likely their disease can’t be cured. Some people just aren’t too bright and they never learned how to think.
Earlier today I was trying to explain some evidence for evolution to a pro-magic creationist. He wasn’t able to understand because he didn’t want to understand. He made no effort to think. He just automatically disagreed with everything I wrote, not caring how stupid he sounded. It was like talking to a dog.
davem
Meds, take them.
Not sure what the Depeche Mode video has to do with anything but
meds.
Stay on them.
@96
It was snark, not “concern”, if you were referring to 88. Ms. Pentecost has shown her ability to dish and withstand all manner of snark with flying colors and good humor. If you weren’t referring to 88 . . . nevermind. I still say no darling squid emoticons, but then again, I’m over forty.
<:E
perhaps he wants his own, personal jebus? o.O
Erasmus @119- “I’m from England, whose evolution education is supposedly copacetic. There was no ID shit anywhere to be seen in the syllabus, yet evolution was covered in only one or two hours. And I did five years of biology at a good school.
So, my point: Are the places where evolution is being taught really much better off than the places where “Teach the controversy” holds sway? I doubt it. ”
Again, why does this sound exactly like “I don’t understand how it could have evolved”?
Erasmus, you are taking your own experience in the UK, and projecting it onto the situation in the US. This is unwise, for obvious reasons.
Before you stride in and start complaining about how others are responding to a significant problem in their country you clearly don’t understand, you might want to take the time to educate yourself as to the nature and history of the issue.
Your concern is noted. Now fuck off.
clinteas, thank you for a sensible response. I genuinely expected a more sincere discussion relating to what I’ve been saying on here. I read this blog a lot, and the comments on it, and I did not expect a perfectly sensible suggestion to be treated with such disdain. I haven’t disagreed with the list in the post, I’ve stated numerous times that I am on the same side and would love to see creationism banished. At 141, I didn’t WANT an argument in the first place. I’m not here to wind anybody up. Posts like 140 are the kind of responses I like to see, they are strong arguments and are not at all disrespectful or immature, and more what I would expect. I’m not saying there should be rules about it. Post what you like. But creationists are sneaky little f*ckers so we have to think one step ahead and not give them any ammunition. This is arguably the biggest science/religion blog on the internet so it’s going to be there first stop to load up their quote mining artillery. If you think I’m wrong then talk to me in a civil manner, say why and let’s have a genuine discussion about it. I’m open to changing my mind you know, I’m no fundie!
I stand by what I said in #133 though, I never thought that sort of response would be seen on here. I mean, really, piece of shit? Dogs pissing on his dead body? Unmarked grave? Tell me that’s not hatred. If you disagree with what he says, dismantle it logically and make him look foolish. Insults and hatred only breed more insults and hatred.
andysin @ 131,
This thread is about Bobbie Jean’s piece,not winning a war against fundamentalism,and if you have spent as much time on here as you say,you will have heard most of these things before from the mouths of deluded fundies on this very blog.So yes,I thought it was hilarious,because we encounter these “arguments” here every day !
What do you mean by maturity and dignity? When,say exposed to the likes of Ray Comfort,or facilis,or any brainwashed creationist for that matter,often all there is left is ridicule.
I will treat them with the same dignity and maturity that I give to my schizophrenic patients at work,that doesnt mean I take what they say about the snakes they see on the floor or the voices talking to them through their toothbrush seriously.
“This thread is about Bobbie Jean’s piece,not winning a war against fundamentalism”
Point taken, but if you think I disagree with, or didn’t enjoy, Bobbie Jean’s piece then you need to read my posts again.
‘What do you mean by maturity and dignity?”
I just mean discussing other people’s opinions on this blog who are clearly not fundies. Ray Comfort is a loon and deserves nothing but ridicule, I COMPLETELY agree with that. I just think we can discuss ideas here between us with respect for each other since we’re all working towards the same goal. I’ve posted here before, and been disagreed with but I never thought people would be calling for my head for voicing an opinion. Erasmus is clearly dead wrong about the state of affairs in the US but educate him about it. I’m from outside the US and I can see how someone from the UK could see the debate as nothing more than sensationalism in the media, but you guys shouldn’t just shout him down and tell him he hasn’t got a clue. GIVE him a clue! Get people onside because the more the merrier. This is supposed to be a community, show some community spirit.
I said I did not appreciate the treatment you got upthread.I swear and scream at people here at times(there is a correlation with ETOH consumption,and level of stupidity and inanity of the commenter LOL),but your comment was not off in any way.
There is a common misconception here I think,to believe that atheists,or people on Pharyngula,have some sort of common agenda.
I can only speak for myself here,but I certainly dont have an agenda,Im not following some plan or script,Im just some guy reading and commenting on a blog,as are all the other people here,just like all bald people dont have an agenda,neither do atheists,or Pharyngula readers.
So why are you still here… arguing?
Yet more typical concern troll tactics. Don’t you ever get tired of them?
This is not your blog. Why do you keep trying to tell people how they should behave? If you knew pharyngula you wouldn’t be here saying these things.
And, I am sorry, should every attempt of humour be censured because it doesn’t further “the cause”? How boring!
That was tried before, but Erasmus has chosen to ignore it.
No, it seems that point is everything but taken. It was never about you not enjoying Bobbie Jean’s piece, but about your boring and completely off-topic concerns.
@Erasmus. you say you come from the UK so do I. It is less than two years ago when we had to start a campaign together to prevent the UK equivalent of the Dishonesty Institute in trying to sneak ID resources into the science classes of state secondary schools. Fortunately it had a positive outcome as the relevant department actually tightened up the science curriculum to prevent ID/creationism being taught as science.
However, unlike the UK, the US doesn’t have a national curriculum so this fight goes on in many states, time after time. This problem has also been discussed at the EU level as well. If you think this a negligible problem then I suggest you read the Wedge document and see how this is all a strategy aimed at theocratising the US. Do I think they will ultimately succeed? Probably not. However, in the meantime, having to constantly combat the threat means that a great deal of money and resources are being wasted. Often resources that should go directly to education.
Incidentally, the IDiots and their supporters are actually trying very hard to export this to the rest of the world as well, and not just the xian bits. Thus, so far, all you have actually demonstrated is how utterly ignorant you are of the threat. I suggest you try to educate yourself before you make a bigger fool of yourself.
Oh and Bobby Jean, kudos, much enjoyed your list so flail away :)
Andysin said
Why? Do you think this is some kind of atheist church or something.
How silly. The only agenda I have coming here is, and in no particular order of priority;
to be informed, often appalled and laugh at yet more creotard stoopidty on a whole range of issues,
enjoy the occasional humorous post, such as this one,
enjoy the range of comments by a plethora of intelligent commenters, most who post something worth reading,
take issue with idiots who think they have the right to tell us what and how to post, (you’re not my mother nor are you PZ)
and, last but very definitely not least, read and learn some interesting science, both from PZ and posters.
Personally, if a blog seemed so disagreeable and the apparent opposite of the way I perceived things should be done, I would avoid it. But hey, if you like being a masochist, fill your boots. But don’t be surprised if we take you to task for trying to tell us how and what we should post. Only PZ has that right. Perhaps Nisbet’s blog would be more to your liking, as he is another who doesn’t approve of us nasty and mean New Atheists and is continuously trying to tell us how to behave.
Semi-amazed that this is still running.
Although I killfiled Erasmus, I see from quotes that he has latched onto something I said about his lack of a sense of humour. Therefore, I will attempt to elucidate clearly my view of him.
Erasmus, you appear to be a humourless concern troll who wants people to submit meekly to the stupidity of others. I think you are wrong and that your method only emboldens those who want to keep the world in, or return to, rule by susperstition. You may not like the methods used by Bobbie Jean or others on this blog. Feel free to dislike it. Also feel free to go away, or stay, no one cares if you stay. However, if you stay, you will likely be told to fuck off on a frequent basis. Almost all of us on here have been told to fuck off at times, we manage to live with it. Your concerns about gutter talk remind me of my maiden aunt who covered the legs of the table so the view of said legs would not excite her or visitors. You can cover your own legs as you wish and in your own home and own blog, but expressing concerns about “gutter talk” as a bad habit and bad tactic will only get you laughed at on this blog. I also think your overall view on the subject, and your concerned post, are wrong as I believe scorn and humour and contempt are, at times, good ways to point out the ludicrous nature of creationism. Not violence of a physical nature, but words. Reasoned debate is also effective if and only if the other party is willing to engage in same. Cursing, well, that is a matter of choice. Humour is often of a vulgar nature, it provides a short way to add shock and is entirely appropriate at times – Lenny Bruce and George Carlin used vulgar language to attract attention to the message and to try and free minds. They had an impact on society, Henny Youngman, not so much.
Ciao, I will pray for you.
Hey Erasmus
American gutterpunk white trailer trash here (I’d be a hillbilly if there were any hills in Minnesota). You know your country is so class-ridden that Marx came up with his class war ideas while living in London, right? Upper class snobbery about language is for wankers.
Fuck. Fuck fuckity fuck. And a gob in your face, Johnny Rotten style.
Erasmus, before I killfile you I’d just like to say a few things:
You don’t get to tell me what to say, how to say it, what to think or decide how I, or anyone else, is going to express themselves.
Your pathetic attempt to have everyone play nice is laughable at best and at worst it is an attempt to undermine others freedom of expression.
You have no right not to be offended. You will never, as long as I have the right to say what’s on my mind, be free from the “burden” of hearing others express themselves as they see fit. Poor little you is just going to have to put up with the fact that your version of “nice” is actually nothing more than insipid, watered-down treacle meant to appease those with whom you would disagree if only you had the guts to actually do so. One day when you “sack up”, as they say ’round these parts, you might just get some respect. Until then, you are doomed to be laughed at as just another “framer” who can’t get past kindergarten.
But I didn’t say that. I do think the liars should be exposed as liars, and as it happens, there are lots of biologists up to the task. I’m not against having some people devoted to fending off the creationists. I just fail to see the utility of bile-soaked trash-talk on a blog 99% of whose readers aren’t creationists. It looks as if people here are looking for an excuse to ridicule and trumpet-blow.
Incidentally, those whose knee-jerk response to me consists of yet more bile-soaked trash-talk, are only proving my point.
Hey Erasmus.
Why don’t you stick around and deal with some of the creo-bots who post here instead of whining about tone.
Try being nice to them and see how far it gets you.
Erasmus, the purpose of this blog is not to educate per se, but for eveyone to have fun. We get a steady stream of godbots and creobots who need to be whacked up the side of their heads even to get their attention. So we provide that whack with vitriol and derision, and we throw in some facts for good measure They get the hint that they can’t just come here, state their idiocy, and have it accepted. Since most can’t fight back using evidence they eventually leave.
If someone comes and asks real questions to gain knowledge, we answer them politely and steer them toward the evidence. Some creobots start by asking honest questions, and they are treated politely for while. Those who ask inane questions from the get-go like Simple Simon the Lieman we treat with derision immediately.
You are the latest in a long line of people complaining about our tone. Our tone is what PZ wants, so it will not change. If you don’t like our tone, try Nisbit. He glories in being nice.
Erasmus, the only thing you have proven on this blog is that you have little conception of the actual threat that IDiocy and creationism poses and not just in the US. As I said in my previous post to you, educate yourself first as to what the real threat is and then perhaps you won’t come off as stupid or ignorant of the threat.
You may then understand why we also at times choose to vent our frustration as well as also understand that few battles worth winning have been won by playing nice with the opposition. Of course, if you know differently then please enlighten us with your wisdom.
Until then, as I suggested to Andysin, perhaps you would be more comfortable on Nisbet’s blog, where we mean old atheists get our posts deleted if we offer even the mildest criticism of its owner’s views, unlike here. Sounds more like your type of site.
John Phillips,
So let me get this straight. I fail to see the nobility and the necessity of continual dehumanizing, hateful ridicule of the creationists. This makes me (a) appear stupid and ignorant, and (b) the type of person who would be attracted to a site in which dissenting posts are deleted.
Nerd of Redhead,
No, that’s not quite right. The purpose of this blog is for everyone within the in-group to have fun at the expense of the out-group.
There are lots of interesting posts on this blog, which is why I read it. But I cannot agree with the apparent majority here that it is somehow noble to become embroiled in the kind of primitive tribalism we should growing out of. It’s hardly becoming of Pharyngula regulars, who are in general an intelligent and well-educated bunch.
Erasmus: *Sticks trumpet in ass*
…wait for it
………wait for it
*VVVVVRRRRROOOOONNNNTTTTTTTTT*
That’s what you sound like, dude. Chill. I respect that you disagree with my methods and I can even see where you’re coming from. But this was not some sort of ‘attempt’ on my part to bring the entire fucktardmentalist YEC cult to its knees. It was just a lot of huffing, puffing, and blowing off some steam.
I’m a painter and I like listening to Youtube videos while I paint. As an atheist and ardent lover of science, I often find myself listening to the Youtube evolution and atheist debates. It is (brace for all caps, all caps in 3,2,1)
I N F U R I A T I N G ! ! ! !
to me that these YECs and ID proponents still think many of their thoroughly debunked arguments are valid.
Furthermore, the YEC/ID problem here in America is a lot more dangerous than you seem to think. Maybe this is a bit over-the-top alarmist, but chew on this: The Muslim world was once The Preeminent bastion of science and reason, the spiritual and philosophical successor to the Ancient Greeks. They pioneered and trailblazed in such areas as science, medicine, and philosophy. Then it turned its back on science and reason and became what it is today; a third world hellhole plagued by extremists, pervasive ignorance, and oppression. I’m not saying that same exact thing will happen to America, but something analogous, possibly.
There is a vociferous and very powerful movement here in America to turn science and reason away; to entertain anti-science sentiments; and to indulge magical thinking in science classes. We have politicians who are respected and taken 110% seriously… who also happen to believe that the Earth was made in 6 days. There are a lot of them.
Anyway, like I said: It was just steam-blowing. Don’t turn my silly little ineffectual list into something it’s not. (I trust that the astute mofuckas on this site will correct me if I’m wrong about anything.)
Oh, and stop being such a damned granny, Erasmus. There’s nothing wrong with a good fuck now and a gain.
@163,
Rubbish.Would make it easier to argue your point,but is not the case.Never seen a more diverse bunch of people than on Pharyngula.
You dont want to emigrate to Australia by any chance?
Erasmus, actually what makes you ignorant is your failure to understand, or dismiss as you did on an earlier post, the actual threat that IDiots and creationists are. That and failing to understand the frustration of repeatedly dealing with the same old, same old from an endless list of IDiots. The rest of your talk about us rude ignoble atheists, well, to repeat a favourite of mine even if it risks causing you to have a fit of the vapours, boo fucking hoo.
You, and other concern trolls, appear to have some idea that this blog is about campaigning and that us regulars should walk in lock step to your oh so noble nicey nicey tune. I have one thing to say to that, go away in a reciprocating fashion.
The reason I suggested, not told BTW, you go to Nisbet is that not only does he not allow even a smattering of criticism from posters, so you won’t have to put up with us crude and rude atheists, but he also shares your belief that we bend over and part our cheeks in an effort to be nice to our opponents. We have tried that, guess what, it doesn’t fucking work. How many times do you have to be told that all the major societal advances did not come about through asking nicely for them but where effectively taken. Partly by changing the overton window and partly by actually fighting for them.
Erasmus the concern troll. Your concern is noted and rejected. The tone of this blog is set by PZ Myers, whose name is on the masthead. I don’t notice yours anyplace, which makes your opinion irrelevant. So, your authority is zero, your concern is rejected, and you have been refered to site more in line with your ideals. What is your point in staying? There is none. Go.
Bobbie Jean, #164:
Great post. I really mean that. You stated your opinion humorously and directly, without any of this peripheral, disingenuous bullshit about how I’m ignorant, stupid, and all the rest of it, for merely voicing my disagreement.
I’m still think your “50 reasons” is a mite too far on the ornery side. Creationists aren’t all complete scumbags, and I don’t think it’s fair to paint them with the one brush. But at least you were genuinely funny, which counts for a lot. I fully sympathize with you if it was just a one-off case of steam-venting.
I see now what I should have done. I shouldn’t have censured your article, but these pathetic tribalists such as John Phillips and Nerd of Redhead, who take deep, personal umbrage whenever anyone suggests to them that maybe they shouldn’t spend so much time writing hate-filled and/or self-congratulatory posts.
As for why I’m here: I thought I already answered that question? Yes I did, so it appears that those asking me the point in my “staying” are being deliberately obtuse.
Once again, I think there are a number of interesting posts on this blog. Most people here are intelligent and I can learn quite a bit from lurking and browsing through the comments. I like PZ Myers, I think he’s a funny and intelligent guy. I don’t approve of his making a hobby out of ridicule, but then everyone has his vices.
I’m not so much an atheist of the “militant” variety nowadays, but I used to be, and I have a soft spot for a lot of what’s said here. But you take it too far.
Erasmus, from a so called tribalist, just fuck off, you are a boring little whiner who has contributed nothing but insults and whines yourself and of course shown us how ‘superior’ you are while still failing to understand what a problem IDiocy and creationism is in the real world. But of course, you won’t see that, will you. As it appears that while you are prepared to dish out criticism and insults, you can’t take it.
Erasmus, stay or go, your choice. Just a reminder, this isn’t your blog. Your whining is tiresome though, and if wish to stay, it needs to stop. If you don’t whine and mewl at our tone, nobody will say anything to you about it. You have stated your opinion and it has been rejected. Now, are your going to take it like a man or a whiny little boy?
Just to chime in with a “Well done, Bobbie Jean” and a big yawn for Erasmus.
Phillips, you merely assert that I’m ignorant and that creationism is a substantial “problem in the real world”. I’m not at all convinced that it is. In fact I think evolution is irrelevant to almost everyone in their day-to-day lives. So far from seeing creationism as a threat to civilization, I just don’t think it matters. It’s small potatoes.
In my measured opinion, postmodernism — as one example — is greatly more sinister, dangerous and contemptible than creationism. Even still, I wouldn’t recommend making a regular hobby out of deriding postmodernists (even though, believe me, I’ve been there before).
Of course I’m willing to change my mind on all this if the evidence requires doing so. My prediction, though, is that Phillips, and maybe some others, will continue the name-calling, and won’t present so much as a particle of meaningful evidence.
I stand by what I said. Classist pigs should die. I have no use for discussion with them; they do not share any common goals of mine. I look forward to the guillotines.
Our concern troll is still concern. YAWN. Your opinion doesn’t count. It isn’t your blog. Only PZ’s opinion counts. Your concern is noted and reject.
Wow, that’s truly incredible. Thank you, “JFK”, for showing everyone that I’m not after all going after a caricature. Pharyngula really does attract the type of bitter lowlife that has nothing better to do but write twisted, hate-filled posts.
As for the charge of classism. The only thing I said that can by any measure be construed as classist was the phrase “trailer-trash”. I didn’t mean it in the literal sense, I just wanted to help myself to some of the connotations the term elicits. It’s widely used, and “JFK” must be wishing death to a lot of people.
Even more amazing: Nerd of Redhead (#134) actually condoned the post in which I was told that I deserve to die, that dogs should “relieve themselves on [my] stinking corpse”, etc. Only one person, as far as I can see, actually expressed disapproval of the post.
Yes, I think I’m done with this blog. I like PZ Myers, but some of the commenters — maybe most of them? — are absolutely vile, thoroughly nasty pieces of work.
Erasmus: Strange, you decry name calling in others yet ignore your own use of it. Now what is the word I am looking for? Oh yes, hypocrite.
We can argue for ever about the actual threat, yet we have the evidence of their actions as well as their stated goals. Admittedly, while they have had limited success in the US and the UK, they have far from given up and are continuing their efforts and not just in the US and UK. Around the world, they have some strange bed fellows when all is considered. On top of that we have the general attack on secularity that is similarly a much wider issue than just the US and the UK with a lot of resources being wasted on combating it. I suggest you do some research before you dismiss it so lightly.
Of course, as to what tactics people choose to use, that is always debatable and there is room for both good cop and bad cop approach. But, choosing to try and order around those who take a more open approach because you don’t like it on a blog that specialises in taking the more open approach seems, how shall I put it, perverse. Still, you have the right to choose whichever method you like, what you don’t have is the right to tell others how to act, especially when you hypocritically are willing to use the same tactics you decry. After all, you didn’t come in here and try to persuade, you came in here insulting from the off. In future I suggest you take your own advice. In the meantime, cnecha bant, tu fel cnec ar ben domen.
This is simply a disgustingly disingenuous remark. I challenge any neutral reader to browse through the thread and verify the following. I used no insults up until I was told I “deserve to “shiver to … death in a windswept alley” (#129).
Phillips’ claim is actually even more ludicrous than I just indicated. My very first post was this:
It is, of course, preaching to the choir. And it achieves little apart from making us feel superior, and conjuring up a climate in which it’s socially acceptable to revel in nastiness. I don’t think it’s something to be encouraged. Then I was called a “concern troll” repeatedly and told to “fuck off” (#57). Most posters seemed to encourage this behaviour rather than distancing themselves from it. So judge who’s being insulting.
You were told to die, cold, poor and alone, precisely because of the insults you used.
You called Bobbie Jean “trailer trash.” Now you whine that you didn’t really mean it, like a teenager so blind to his own homophobia that he insists it’s innocuous to say “that’s gay” of whatever he dislikes.
I don’t give a dessicated shit what sense in which you thought you were using the term. Your preferred insult for people with whom you disagree is to compare them to families living in subsistence poverty.
Erasmus, I know your kind. I would rather live my whole life in a trailer park than be associated with anyone like you.
Well, for a start, you are. Secondly, they are.
Not swearing is not the same as not being insulting. You called people trailer-trash and childish, you implied people were liars by denying the political realities of a country you don’t live in. This isn’t to say that people haven’t been too harsh with you, but your reluctance to say “fuck” does not magically make you polite. Or right.
To add onto that your only suggestion has been counterproductive. The scientific battles are over, this is a social war now and ridicule is in an important weapon. The assertion that we should stick to polite, reasoned debate is naive and blind to reality.
Erasmus, for being done with this blog, you continue to post like a liar and bullshitter. Go away if you say you are going away. Failure to do so mean you lied. And whatever you say needs to be taken with a grain of salt the size of Montana.
BYE ERASMUS! BYE! SEE YA! CIAO! LATER!
Erasmus, #179:
OK, as someone who has followed this thread from the beginning without participating in the back-and-forth, here’s what I found on reviewing your posts:
#32: the implication that posters here “feel superior” and “revel in nastiness”.
#91: “childish gloating…gutter-mouthed and trailer-trash…anger and vitriol…perverse amount of trumpet-blowing”
#103: “bile fests”, plus the implication that your grasp of US educational politics is superior to that of people who live here and actually fight these battles.
#114: “cliques…disgraceful…vitriolic, gutter-mouthed, unnecessary”
#117: “roll around in venom…smug and superior…kidding yourself”
If you managed to say all that without intentionally setting out to insult anybody, then all I can say is that your idea of polite disagreement differs markedly from mine.
Well, look. JFK wished mortal suffering on a fellow human being (something I would never do), and he is being supported by apparently a good chunk of posters. Only one person has tried to condemn what he said.
It seems to me that everything I said is fair. In this blog, people really do revel in nastiness and all the rest of it.
I don’t want to drag this on, but let’s deconstruct post #185. Gregory Kusnick implies that it is a personal insult for me to allege that some posters here try to “feel superior”, engage in “childish gloating”, etc. I was not referring to any specific individuals, I was merely referring to a few unnamed posters. Maybe it was a tiny minority for all you knew. Unless you think you ARE guilty of all those offenses, why on Earth would you think it’s applicable to you?
I did not call Bobbie Jean trailer trash, JFK is obviously lying about that. What I said is that constant use of the word fuck “comes off” as trailer trash. And I think that’s reasonable enough. The notion that I’m classist, on the basis of this one statement, is just crazy.
There were certainly no insults on the scale of wishing someone to shiver to death in alley, at any rate.
This is a pathetic case of Lying for Pharyngula. I did not call anyone trailer trash or childish; all I said is that certain actions meet those criteria. There’s a distinct difference. Also I did not call anyone a liar, I was clearly implying only intellectual insincerity (and that is not a personal insult, by any stretch of hyper-sensitive offense-taking).
Anyway. My original claims have all been vindicated. This is a nasty, spiteful, violently fanatical community, in which any non-trivial criticism engenders disgracefully below-the-belt attacks. You have your own taboos, just like the theists, and you use the same miserable partisan tactics in defence of the dogma.
You remind me of 14-year-old goths. You need this crutch, this in-group/out-group divide, in order to feel meaningful. The main essential difference is that your community has at its heart an especially disgusting hypocrisy, given your propensity for the very same faith-based tricks that you make a hobby out of haranguing upon.
Another thing is that you are greatly more viciously miliant. You KNOW that if you entertain serious criticism, the wretchedness of your regular venom festivals on this blog will readily become apparent. Therefore your task is to stave off “concern trolls” like me as if we’re barbarians at the gates.
Like the homophobe says, male closeness just “comes off” as gay.
There’s a distinction without a difference. And not for a moment have you considered giving Bobbie Jean the apology you owe her. (Here you will offer a non-apology apology, and be rightly despised for your duplicity.)
You believe there is such a thing as trailer trash: you are a class-baiting troll.
You believe that were there such a thing as trailer trash, it should be an insult: you are a classist shithole.
Like KI said, a fucking gob in your face.
I’m happy to raise the stakes. You portray poverty as a moral failing, you should die without a dime in your pocket.
The hell you don’t. I count 18 posts by you in this thread, more than anyone else, 4 since you said you were leaving. This is all about you, drama king. Bridgemaster of trolls.
Nobody doubts your motives here. Your shtick is to tell everyone how much better we’d have it, how much more successful we’d be at life, the universe, and everything, if only we’d adopt your way of doing things. Bobbie Jean still has to earn your approval; she’s a bit ornery, but you’ll give her a pass on the condition that this is a one-off case of steam-venting.
You’re the definition of a concern troll. And like most, you suck at your goal. Nobody would want to agree with you even if your message were persuasive, because you’re so obsessed with preening over your image that you can’t even pretend to be a sympathetic character.
No more nasty than we’ve ever been, and your turns of phrase betray that you’ve been watching. You only just now see, when the spotlight is turned on you? Why then Erasmus, you’ve been complicit this whole time. What a hypocrite! First we came for the creationists, but you didn’t speak up, because you weren’t a creationist.
My original offer stands. There are thousands of other blogs, attics where you can hide from our jackbooted tentacles.
Now fuck off like you promised you would.
Erasmus, liar and bullshitter. You keep posting after you officially said you would leave. Classical concern troll behavior. You have to get in the last word. You won’t. The regulars will. So, just leave. Period. Remove us from your bookmarks. See, that wasn’t hard, but it shows integrity and honesty, compared to your present passive/aggressive actions. Bye, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
You are a fucking fanatic, and your posts in this thread indicate plainly that you don’t give a toss about reason and evidence and everything this blog claims to stand for. You know nothing about me, so don’t lie and pretend that you do. If you did you would find absurd the proposition that I have classist tendencies. As a matter of fact, I have working class roots, which I’ve always been proud of, and I retain numerous working class friends despite achieving social mobility and receiving education from a top university. So you know fuck all. Pathetic misanthrope that you are, you are simply seizing upon this excuse to vent your hatred for the world.
Hey, you know why the phrase “trailer-trash” was at the front of my consciousness? A while ago I read it in an interview with none other than Richard Dawkins! And he actually called PEOPLE trailer-trash. He didn’t merely say certain behaviour “comes off” in that manner.
Someone wishing agonizing death on a fellow human being is in no position to take the moral high ground. Now crawl back into your bile-puddle, you disgusting, hate-filled, thoroughly execrable psychopath.
Erasmus, shut up and go. Your opinion is worthless, since you trashed your credibility with promising to go, and then not doing it, and with your concern trolling. YAWN Boring idiot.
Still have the mighty Erasmus killfiled, but just so he does not have the last word on this thread…
Ciao, bello
I agree with #185. Erasmus, you’re just whining. Using big words and a tone that suggests you know what you’re talking about and you’re better than everyone who might disagree with you. Such tactics, and the whole “I’m more intelligent because I don’t resort to swearing!” thing only works with total idiots, and you’re picking fights with the opposite.
Bobbie Jean’s journal was made for her watchers and friends to be humorous. If you don’t like it, you could just go on your merry way, yet here you are, insisting on instigating. Saying that Bobbie Jean and the people who were amused by her list “feel superior” and “revel in nastiness” IS offensive and insulting, and if you truly don’t understand why then maybe you should stay off the internet. For the record, most of the people you’re arguing with never claimed to be nice, so I’m not sure why you would even attempt to get them to regret their behavior (and honestly I don’t see that they have any reason to).
You’re a hypocrite, and you’re in the wrong.
No idea what the hell you’re talking about. I have nothing against swearing, as you can see from many of my posts. I wrote one throw-away comment in which I made the point that repeated unnecessary swearing comes off as boorish and anti-intellectual. I stand by that. This doesn’t imply that I’m a prude, as I said at the outset.
And yes, you’re right that you’re right that you and the others siding with that psychopath “JFK” sure aren’t “nice”.
I’m not trying to get in the last word, but I have no intention of allowing these despicable lies to go unanswered. Stop lying and I will go.
Erasmus, you don’t set policy here. PZ Myers does. If he says go, you will go. All you are doing is throwing the equivalent of temper tantrum that we would expect from a two year old. Grow a pair of gonads, take you lumps like a man, and just go. Bye
Nerd the redhead isn’t going to like you tracking all that cack across the carpet. ;)
I actually wasn’t siding with anyone, Erasmus. I’m not a regular of this blog, and I certainly am not sticking up for anyone, except Bobbie Jean, since she is a friend of mine and doesn’t deserve this sort of bullshit. I’m simply telling you how your behavior seems. As people keep saying, you’ve already claimed you would leave but you’re still here. Hence, you are instigating everything and generally being insufferable and stubborn.
You said saying “fuck” so much was trailer-trash behavior. That’s where I got the “I’m more intelligent because I don’t resort to swearing!” came from. Because that’s what you act like, like if someone says “fuck” one too many times, and in humor at that, that they seem somehow less intelligent.
I never lied either. My last post to you was my first, and once again, all I was doing was calling you out on your horrid behavior. You were the one that asked for a neutral third party to say what’s what, and when people who had stayed out of the argument stepped in, you piss and moan about it and call them liars.
Hell, I’m not even sure why you care if a bunch of people on a blog are lying about you or not anyway. It’s the internet, for fuck’s sake. You’ve already ruined your credibility here, bunches of people now dislike you (I don’t actually dislike you, I just think you’re being an annoying troll, since you keep coming back), but that has no bearing on your real life, so the only logical reason to fight it is 1) you’re taking everything way too seriously, and 2) you want to get the last word in.
On the contrary, Erasmus. I know that you are the kind of person who uses “trailer trash” as an insult.
You want us to take this as meaningless, but it is not meaningless. Just the same as we know what kind of people use “gay” as an insult, we can learn about you from your words.
“But some of my best friends are poor!” That’s nice. I believe you, Erasmus. I do. That you make some exceptions does not excuse your generalizations. I hope that in the future you are more careful not to broadly disrespect your friends.
In general I love people. That’s why I’m very specific in my condemnation of classists, racists, sexists, homophobes and transphobes. But tell yourself I’m a misanthrope if you need to, Erasmus, especially if it gives you enough satisfaction that you can finally walk the fuck away and leave everyone here alone. That’s much more important to me than correcting my own record.
Wow, a fucking millionaire displays some unchecked class privilege? Am I supposed to be surprised?
Just cold and alone. I would take no pleasure in thinking that your death were particularly physically painful. As to the implication that it’s always wrong to hope for someone’s death, well, I’ll agree to disagree if you’ll shut your class-baiting mouth and hie to the country club.
Actually people have addressed the actual substance of your criticism, that tone is hurting the “cause”. But you’ve ignored that and just whined that people aren’t being nice on the internet.
Erasmus whining (in abbreviated form):
CHRIST does that get old…you’d think they would notice how many times they use the same old shit!
This twisted nutbag told me I deserve to die cold and alone just because I used the phrase “trailer-trash”. Pretty rich coming from someone writing on a blog in which Southern American English is mocked on a regular basis. I even said I didn’t mean “trailer-trash” in the literal sense, and I showed that an idol on this site, Richard Dawkins, used it in a manner which can much easier be interpreted as “class-baiting”. And even still, only one person posting here tried to distance himself from those psychopathatic comments.
I’m going to keep this thread for future reference, rest assured. Whenever I want to show someone how Pharyngula is a haven for hateful and violent zealots, I’ll direct them to this thread.
erasmus is a tedious repetitive unoriginal troll,the likes of which we have all grown tired of.
My comments upthread btw were regarding andysin,who did not deserve the treatment he/she got.
Erasmus:
:)
You really don’t know the meaning of hateful, violent, or zealot, do you?
It is much more fun to killfile someone and then read excerpts from them in other posters. Try it, if you have not as of yet.
Erasmus, the only person I have seen who hung on so long after promising to leave was K., our late lamented NDE jeebus worshiper, he who shall not be fully named lest he appear in a cloud of methane to befoul this blog again. Stay or go, but take a stand and stick with it. So, your feelings have been hurt…alert the media, SIWOTI.
Ciao
Petulant Erasmus:
It’s statements like this one that make me stand in awe of how truly bat-shit insane you must be to think this would matter in the least.
TING:
Indeed, as I have found myself by poking around a bit more. Though my own personal misconception was birthed out of the fact that I observed the Red Cross and Red Crescent in action, and while the ICRC (Internat’l Council of the Red Cross & Red Crescent) are secular shell organizations, many of the ICRC people I encountered in my ops overseas were religiously affiliated. (Especially the Red Crescent, but that is to be expected, I guess, when you’re operating under theocracies that wouldn’t allow it any other way.)
dammit…wrong thread…
I didn’t mean “that’s gay” in the literal sense! I meant “that’s bad.” You know, like in the sense that being gay is bad.
Erasmus, we don’t care what you think or what you do. Why would you think we would other than self delusion? YAWN, boring idiot.
I for one am now resting assured.
Bobby-The-Jean missed the main one:
“I don’t believe in evolution because God is spaceless and timelessly eternal and therefore doesn’t change at all, so why should I?”
That’s the one that says it all. They can throw out all those other sniveling excuses (which are as true as they are entertaining and less boring: bravo to Bobby-The-Jean at DeviantArt).
Erasmus (and others) provide reminders that this sort of thing is mostly useless ‘preaching to the choir’ stuff – as if anybody really needed any reminding but, hey, its always ok to bite down on that peppercorn every once in awhile to remind us where part of the flavor comes from…
Then the police roll out and do their thing because they feel its their territory to protect and defend against any deviation from what they perceive is the proper attitude to express on their turf which understandably comes about from an enhanced sensitivity to the appearance of numerous religiously-headed trolls over the last several years, slapping the label “concern troll” to further define what they deem improper, and almost never once guessing these supply some of the peppercorn grist that gives their mill any reason for being in the first place…
And Erasmus decides to take exception, out of personal hurt rather than bravely lying pat on his original perfectly worthwhile opinion which was perfectly serviceable, and the whole thread devolves (once again) into an idiotic contest between two adversarial sorts who both sound very much like imbeciles.
Erasmus: knock it off. You had something good to say, and you spoiled it by piling it on. In the end, what the hell is wrong with poking fun with a bit of mockery? It’s good for the blood. Relax and enjoy.
To the anti-Erasmus police: knock it off. You had something good to say, and you egged on more of what you pretend you don’t like seeing. Many of you are the very same who frequently warn that nobody should “feed the trolls”. And MAN, how you guys land on the occasional newcomer who goofs with the admonition not to feed ’em.
Just like self-appointed policemen (otherwise known as vigilantes): leave the feeding to them. THEY know exactly what they want to read. No tolerance is offered for an even SLIGHTLY wider diversity of opinion. What’s the matter? Are we so insecure that we can’t talk about an innocent topic such as even THIS anymore without it ending up in a flurry of ad hominem attacks? Take a fucking break. Relax and enjoy.
Can’t we try and clean it up just a LITTLE bit and stick to the fucking topic?
Otherwise we’ll all be seeing this great forum in decline, as all dynamic systems that are restricted from usefully heterogeneous input must, just because some assholes decided homogeneity was better than messy reality, or worse, that its best the homogeneity that emerges in the end of the fight coincides with what they think is right.
I’m just wondering at this point whether people of any common persuasion actually do any “learning”.
I’m an uneducated person. A lot of these big fancy words fly right over my head. WTB dictionary PST! I stumbled, huh?’d, googled and suffered my way all the way to the bottom of the comments. A lot of them made me lol, especially the way Erasmus went down faster than Michael Jackson’s fanbase yet he/she somehow remained largely oblivious.
I’m neither creationist nor…whatever the other stance was. But I like science-y things in general because when I learn something new I get to oooh and aaah and feel smrt(Intentionally incorrectly spelled by the way).
Moar humor ftw; Check it.
http://ninjakiller.deviantart.com/art/Monkey-Pimp-Pope-57647585 Pimpin’ Monkey Pope.
Yes, astrounit, you’re better than everyone else here because you’re so far above the fray. Jeez, how do you manage to say all that crap without boring yourself to death?
Erasmus deserved to be taken down a peg for class-baiting to attack Bobbie Jean. He did this almost immediately, in his second comment here. You’re ignoring or excusing this by suggesting that he “had something good to say”, so I have a suggestion for you: go fuck yourself with a tire iron.
I guess the party’s over as evidenced by the fact that my asspats have dried up and devolved into a slap-fight. XD
Well, thanks for the input, critiques, and support everyone! I thoroughly enjoyed my 15 seconds of fame. I hope I achieved something with my journal aside from preaching to the choir and galvanizing the opposition.
~Bobbie
here ya go; one last asspat:
*pat*