I was enthused about the Artemis 2 lunar flyby mission. I was. My interest is cooling fast, though, and I fear the worst for NASA’s weekend.
I was turned off by this article about Victor Glover, one of the Artemis 2 astronauts. It was published in the Daily Citizen, which in case you didn’t know, is a rag produced by Focus on the Family…right away you know, it’s going to be all about evangelical Christianity (I don’t recommend that you read further in that publication, a lot of it is about trans-hatred.)
It starts off OK.
After spending six months aboard the ISS, he returned to Earth and praised NASA for allowing him to take communion each week.
“I was able to worship in space,” he said, adding, “[NASA] supported me and my family’s desire to continue to worship and to continue our faith walk even while I was off the planet. That was really important to me.”
You don’t need to praise NASA for “allowing” him to practice his religion. That’s the default. Christians like to believe they are prosecuted for their faith, which sometimes means they pretend to be surprised that they get to pray, when no one, not even atheists like me, are saying that they shouldn’t be allowed to do the innocuous practices of their religion. Go ahead, pray! Take communion! Sing hymns! We aren’t going to complain unless you force your superstitions on us.
If an astronaut wants to wear their lucky socks or carry a rabbit’s foot on board, I can’t imagine NASA complaining. Matters of personal belief are not issues that should be disallowed, although we should also be free to regard rabbit’s feet and communion wafers as silly.
Glover goes on to brag about another silly practice, prayer.
My career is fed by my faith, and you know, anytime I do something that’s pretty risky, I pray — before I fly, every time I fly. Definitely when you go sit on top of a rocket ship.
I have to shrug — yeah, go ahead and pray, just leave me out of it. I’m not impressed with sitting on top of a rocket ship, either. I think you owe more to the engineers who designed and built the machine, than to an imaginary being who played no role in its construction, and isn’t going to help you if something goes wrong.
But he just can’t shut up and has to blurt out a stupid saying.
“In the military, there’s a saying that there are no atheists in foxholes. There aren’t any on top of rockets, either.”
Well, fuck you too, Victor Glover. There are and have been atheists in foxholes, and on top of rockets, too — but in our Christian country, their existence is ignored, if not belittled. Courage is not an exclusive property of soldiers and astronauts, and many of us feel no need for the crutch of superstition.
Every human being is mortal, and is guaranteed to experience events in their life that carry the threat of their imminent demise, without having to be on top of a rocket. I’d be more scared of riding in an automobile, since more people are going to have traumatic, terrifying events in one of those. Some may pray, some may call out to God, Allah, or their mother, but others will feel helpless acceptance or struggle to escape their situation without the magic mumbo-jumbo. I’ve had a few near-death experiences (I anticipate more in the distant (I hope) future as I get older, and there will ultimately be one that will require dropping the “near-“) but never have I given any thought to a divine being. It’s just not part of the way my mind works.
I’m not going to deny Victor Glover’s mind the ability to flit to thoughts of supernatural salvation when he’s frightened, and he shouldn’t be telling us how other people’s minds will work. Let us instead consider a counter-example, the astronaut John Young, who had an exceptionally accomplished career that makes Victor Glover look like a rookie.
John W. Young, now retired, had the longest career as an astronaut. He’s the only person to have been commander of four classes of spacecraft. He was part of the first two-man space mission. He’s the first person to have orbited the Moon alone. One of three people to have flown to the Moon twice. The list goes on and on. Oh, he’s also one of the 12 people in human history to ever walk on the Moon.
Young was asked about God, and he gave the kind of answer I would give, too.
Interviewer: Did you discovered God up there?
Young: No. I don’t think so.
Interviewer: No sense of awe? Wonder?
Young: No.
Interviewer: Why not?
Young: Because I think that the way things are in space are the way they are and I think that’s a good thing. I think that if people have to go into space to discover God, they have some other kind of problem.
According to Victor Glover, John Young shouldn’t have gone to the Moon. I repeat, fuck you, Victor Glover.
The writer for the Daily Citizen went further and opined even more idiotically.
Indeed, modern science increasingly supports Christian theism. Scientists have discovered that our universe is fine-tuned to support life – and many creatures within it appear intelligently designed. There is also increasing evidence that our universe began at a finite point in the past – raising the question of what – or Who – caused the universe to come into being.
No. Science does not support theism, Christian or otherwise. The fine tuning argument is bullshit — why presuppose “tuning” at all, the universe is what it is, and what life exists within it is by necessity compatible with its physical nature. We do not appear “intelligently designed,” we are constructs of chance and a few billion years of natural selection. Our universe is the product of the expansion of a singularity and we don’t know enough about the properties of that event to say anything about causation, or whether the universe is finite, so don’t bother pretending that science is propping up your creation myth.
Focus on the Family has no control over NASA, but I am concerned about the propaganda NASA will put out this weekend. It’s Easter weekend. They’re sending a ship on a flyby of the Moon. I remember in 1968, NASA sent another manned mission on a flyby of the Moon over Christmas, and they broadcast a reading of the book of Genesis. Having to watch that was one of the nails in the coffin of my religious upbringing, a gross disappointment that radicalized me and made Christianity look even more ridiculous.
Right now, the USA is an embarrassment to the world for a variety of reasons. NASA won’t be helping if they make a goofy-ass evangelical Christian the centerpiece of a major scientific mission, even if only for a day. I’m cringing at the thought that an astronaut is going to preach at us about a resurrection and an empty tomb on Sunday.
I won’t be listening. Victor Glover is reinforcing the spam-in-a-can stereotype, and will further diminish American prestige, what little of it is left. But at least when he lands he can announce that he’s going to Answers in Genesis! They love dumb-ass astronauts there.
Those who “trust in the Lord” don’t NEED a foxhole.
So anyone who chooses to even go in a foxhole is doing it BECAUSE they DON’T trust the Lord.
Thus, there are ONLY atheists in foxholes.
🦊
If their ship doesn’t blow up on the pad, blow out an oxygen tank during the voyage, or lose gimbal lock on the trip home, Glover should be on his knees thanking the designers, engineers, and builders for the work they did, not praising a fairy tale creature.
Him praying to god instead of thanking the engineers who built that massively complicated contraption and manage to make it safe (for what it is) is what grates me. I’m sure he’d also first thank god after a doctor saved his life. Nevermind the highly intelligent, educated and skilled human being, it was all due to the imaginary sky fairy.
Bruce @1
Fallacy of the excluded middle:
Or else one is a theist, but figures God wants people to do some of the work themselves. They could say, God provided the foxhole (or the dirt to dig it into), after all. I think this is the more mainstream theist point of view.
There’s a story about someone caught in a house in a flood, and various people come by to rescue him, and he keeps saying, “God will save me.” When he (no surprise) ends up dying and meets God, he says, “why didn’t you save me?” God say, “I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter, etc., and you refused each time. What more did you want me to do?”
P.Z.
Lucky socks on the other hand …
I had forgotten that it was Easter this weekend. Searching for Easter Eggs was fun, but the rest of the holiday always struck me as extremely implausible (and had me wondering why so much of what adults said was nonsense….).
Lucky rabbits’ feet don’t appear to have granted much luck to the rabbit.
I call out to god often during the day.
It’s usually asking for him to damn something.
Now, if they want to bring their lucky anvil along…. We’d have to discuss it.
Is there any tradition of the Easter Ctulhu? If not, we should start one.
@8 fishy — Same. Except I don’t ask it, I order it. Emphatically. I have a large collection of slippery tools, unopened pickle jars, coffee-table legs, uncooperative electronics, and arthritic joints all headed for hell if my cursing has been successful.
Maybe some astronaut should demand to be allowed to wear his sacred FSM colander on his head, why the frack not?!?! It would make just as much sense as wasting time and taxpayers’ money on a long distance prayer to an imaginary jebus!
And, I’ll bet they can see that the earth is flat from up there!
@11 I’ll ride shotgun on this highway to…well, ya know.
Years ago, I told a group of Sunday School adults that they were, too atheists in the foxholes. Something that I found out while browsing the web about “Christian Heritage” and found that the notion about No atheists found in the foxholes is an absolute made up, yet oft-repeated lie. Apparently, they didn’t buy it. Instead give me this bullcrud remark, “If there were atheists in the foxholes, then they’ll instantly become Christians as the bombs were going off around them.” And then they hurriedly left the room for the church service, giving me no chance to explain or debate with them.
Just comes to show just how blind, deaf, and ignorant they really are.
Hm. He appears to have never heard of the cosmonauts?
Meanwhile, ex-congressman Matt Gaetz claims the U.S. has a secret program to interbreed humans and aliens. The official head of FEMA claims he teleports from home to his local Waffle House. VP J. Dunce avance claims UFOs are really flying demons. And then we have crackpots like Roadkill Kennedy Jr. and Dr. Mehmet Ooze.
Except it’s not 1968, and the evangelical Xtians are closely associated with maga. MAGA cult members are currently a despised demographic of utter losers because of what they voted into office.
NASA itself is a secular institution, and I don’t think they would be interested in letting any astronauts proselytize on Easter, or associate their mission in any way with the dumpster fire that is maga.
The atheists thing is stupid, but I’ve read several interviews with him and he is always thanking the team, noting the engineers, and not saying a single thing about a god or whatever. I
Doesn’t he know it’s actually more properly Zombie Awareness Weekend? Shouldn’t he be preparing for that?
Only headshots count, and DON’T FORGET TO DOUBLE TAP!
Captaintripps, I can fix that for ya, if you care to read rather than do a Nelson:
(https://premierchristian.news/us/news/article/there-are-no-atheists-in-rockets-says-christian-pilot-of-artemis-ii)
(https://dailycitizen.focusonthefamily.com/nasa-astronaut-victor-glover-we-need-jesus/)
(https://eternitynews.com.au/world/spacex-astronaut-brings-bible-and-communion-to-international-space-station/)
Thank you for the John Young quote – what a great guy.
And ‘no Atheists on top of rockets? What a remarkably stupid thing to say, even by christian standards of thought. What does it mean?That god will intervene in physics to stop a rocket blowing up? Or will he rescue Glover and let the others die?
“No atheists in foxholes”? The Prophet Muhammad once said “tie your camel before you pray” in other words don’t trust in God to protect you from your own stupidity, including ending up in a foxhole in the first place. On the Easter note; I wonder if the rest of the crew will be tucking into those good old blasphemous easter eggs and chocolate bunnies or would that offend his religious sensitivities? Also what happens if one of the crew is a Pastafarian> Will NASA provide a colander and a supply of pasta?
nomdeplume, “What does it mean?”
The conceit is that when one imminently fears for one’s life one turns to some god, presuming we all suffer from existential desperation.
God as a psychological crutch.
Said by needy people who imagine others are as needy.
Official NASA video of Victor Glover discussing Artemis. He does talk about how NASA and space exploration is far more diverse than it was back in 1968.
Unsurprisingly, there isn’t a single mention of gods, or his personal beliefs.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FR5vJEVcKP0
I don’t see any point in spamming the thread with a bunch of evangelical propaganda from garbage organizations @21. Who cares what fools believe?
“I don’t see any point in spamming the thread with a bunch of evangelical propaganda from garbage organizations @21. Who cares what fools believe?”
Tsk, Tethys. Obs, Victor Glover cares about his beliefs.
And PZ cared enough to post this post.
I was informing Captaintripps who had not read such from that person.
So I quoted 3 specific examples by them.
(I care what Captaintripps believes, too)
See? Lots of caring all around! ;)
Helpfully providing answers to questions nobody has even asked in the first place? I think that qualifies as bloviating, especially since that ‘caring’ reply started with insulting their intelligence, Nelson.
“Helpfully providing answers to questions nobody has even asked in the first place?”
What? No. Captaintripps said he’d not read any such, and I gave 3 examples.
That is not answering a question that was not asked. Since you ask. :)
“I think that qualifies as bloviating, especially since that ‘caring’ reply started with insulting their intelligence, Nelson.”
Yeah, what you think does amuse.
Especially when you insinuated Captaintripps was a fool because I cared what they believe.
But the Nelson is cute; just as he held the scope to his blind eye, so has Captaintripps never read any such eructations from our specimen astronaut. Heh.
How many people have been killed in a foxhole with a prayer on their lips! Theists have a bet each way. God same him from disaster, or the good lord called him home. There’s never a “well you really dropped the ball there Jesus.”
Apollo 8 and especially the Earthrise photo(s) :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthrise
Which has been described as “the most influential environmental photograph ever taken” helped inspire the environmental movemnet and gave people alot of inspiration, hope and joy.
So, yeah, I hope they do another Apollo 8 at least in those regards.
As for Victor Glover’s beliefs well, Buz Aldrin took communion onthe Moon and wwas – is as far as I know a devout Catholic yet also seems to be a pretty good human being and definitley a great pilot. I guess compartmentalisation and having ones own beliefs are things and its possible toadmire and respect what some peopel do without believing they ar eright about everything and might have beliefs that you find silly or worse. Christianity is a pretty standard delusion that a lot of people are indoctrrinated into and find hard tosubsequently break out of – ditto Isdlam, Hinduism, etc…
@25. Tethys : ” Who cares what fools believe?”
It depends on the context – on who the fool is and what those beliefs are and how they affect others. If the fools are in positions of power or are using those beliefs to hurt others and are trying to impose their foolish beliefs on others against their will whether being annoying or actively dnagerous then I care. Also sometimes they are simply amusing in the “WTF you actually believe what!?” kinda way
Anyhow, as usual with that “who cares” question, the answe is actually quite a lot of people do.
^ In this specific case if Glover’s belief caused him to open the airlock to float out and meet Jesus becuase that was an (imaginary obvs) answer to his prayers then it would be a problem for the rest of the crew. However, I don’t think that is remotely likely.
More realistically, if Glover’s Christian beliefs cause him to hate on other people and use his heightened platform as an astronaut to hurt others eg. Trans people, Muslims, atheists etc..then it will be an issue. I think he’s unlikely to do that from what I’ve seen of him so far and I hope & expect he’s wiser and better than that.
I already referenced in the Infinite thread and a past Artemis II thread that one thing he does is regularly read the ‘Whitey on the Moon’ poem :
Source : https://www.space.com/space-exploration/artemis-2-pilot-victor-glover-whitey-on-the-moon-
Plus since we’re looking at his words and views here :
Source : https://www.space.com/space-exploration/artemis/we-work-for-them-too-artemis-2-moon-mission-is-for-everyone-nasa-astronaut-victor-glover-says-video
So, yeah, Glover doesn’t strike me as the intolerant, bigoted type of Christian who opposes other worldviews.Seems like a pretty good human being even if he is a Christian.
@30.Artemis II has already provided some awesome images of our home world which can be seen, among other places, here :
Source : https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-04-04/artemis-ii-moon-nasa-orion-astronauts-earth-images-pictures/106531232
I think I would answer differently from Young — God, no, but awe and wonder, absolutely. I just don’t associate those with superstition.
FWIW all the Artemis II astronauts were interviewed on Colbert which folks can watch and hear for themselves here – Why We’re Going Back to the Moon – NASA’s Artemis II Moon Mission Astronauts (9 mins long) plus part II The Overview Effect: Seeing Earth with the Whole Universe in the Background whilst there’s also an interview with Victor Glover alone here – Interview with Artemis II pilot Victor Glover by Khou 11 lasting 6 and half mins long.
He sure doesn’t come across as a religious extremist nutter to me.
Also do we care or know about any of the other three Artemis II crew’s belief’s or just Glover?
@33 Nemo : Yes! Agreed 100%! Wonder, awe and the sense of the numinous as described & discussed so well by Carl Sagan are provided so well by science and nature.
Oh and one more interview with Victor Glover here – on NASA Science which goes for twenty minutes. Talking ice & water in space and student innovation and earthrise and more.
Yeah, I don’t think Glover’s religion is an issue – yes, he’s Christian, most Americans are. I don’t think he’s a bad person for being brought up in and believing that, I don’t think his religion is going to be a problem here.
StevoR:
“Wonder, awe and the sense of the numinous as described & discussed so well by Carl Sagan are provided so well by science and nature.”
For people who need that shit. Bah.
“Yeah, I don’t think Glover’s religion is an issue”
NASA astronaut Victor Glover, pilot for the Artemis II lunar mission, is married to Dionna Glover and has four daughters: Genesis, Maya, Joia, and Corinne. Whose inculcation is a given.
Here, for ya: https://christianchronicle.org/astronaut/
“So I would say that as we’ve grown our family, that’s really when I’ve started to develop a real, true appreciation of my own faith and not just the academic.”
[…]
Tim Shoulders, the Southeast church’s associate minister, praised Victor and Dionna’s dedication to their faith.
“They have an incredible drive to produce faith in their children,” Shoulders said. “They are very invested in family and making sure church and God are at the center of that.”
—
I obviously surpassed my own inculcation, but I had to hide that.
It fucking matters!
(How many other childred are fed this crap about the Goddish astronaut?)
John Young also commanded the first space shuttle mission. A legend among astronauts.
(Also, a minor correction to the OP – Apollo 8 was not a “flyby”. That means you approach a celestial body but are not captured into orbit. Apollo 8 orbited the Moon.)
@ 34 StevoR
We care about all the ones who publicly proclaim the only people who would ever be launched into space by a rocket are people who believe in an inexplicable disembodied super-intelligence that has intent and motive power and suspends the laws of nature when it deems doing so desirable. Is that okay with you?
Q: You know why religious people sound stupid?
A: because they say stupid things.
@39. Silentbob : Who is “we” here especially if you explicitly exclude me?
Also not really an answer to my question & I don’t think it ‘s a fair summary of Glover’s words or views.
@36. John Morales : If you truly cannot feel wonder or awe then I pity you. These emotions are, well, awesome I reckon. They also inspire many to do things that are, well, wonder-full and awe-inspiring in turn.
Maya sounds awfully heathen a name to me!
yah, Iguess it matters to thema nd to some and yes, I’d rather the children have a choice – Ithink they’ll ultiamtely have that anyhow albioert yeah, they’ll get indoctrinated too a syouwere. You got better. So then can they.
Does it matter for this flight? Nah.
PS. Scott Manley’s clip on Artemis II so far here :
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2026/03/30/infinite-thread-xxxix/comment-page-1/#comment-2297418
StevoR:
What? Numinousness is the concept at hand, not wonder or awe.
Also, note the feeling is mutual. And we’ve been through this.
I do see the same stuff as you, you know. \
Primitive awe is your lot, not mine.
Awe fully. Heh. You are thereby awed. Fully!
(Genesis: origin, Maya: illusion, Joia: treasure, Corinne: purity)
Matters to you. Clearly.
It’s awesome!
“PS. Scott Manley’s clip on Artemis II so far here”
Heh. A link to a link, specifically, to another thread where a rather long video asks “Artemis II: Was it Everything I Expected?”
(Presumably, it was. Or maybe it was not. Who the fuck knows?)
@ ^ John Morales : The people who actually watch the video know.
I don’t particularly care that Victor Glover is Christian which is my point of #30, 31, 32, 35 etc.. Glover doesn’t seem to be a Christianist IOW an extremist keen to impose Christianity on others against their will. Most Americans are religious. That is regrettable and I wish they weren’t but as long as they aren’t actively using their beliefs to hurt others or otherwise cause problems then that’s their choice. Diitto Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc..
Words nd the shift inmenaings base don contexct really do seem to toruble you don’t they?
I thought Maya was a reference to the eponymous mesoamerican civilsation and culture. Didn’t realsie it had that specific Christian menaing so something new learnt today. Seems odd to call your daughter ‘Illuston’ to me but, again, that’s their business and choice and no harm done.
Clarity fix : Words and the shift in meanings based on context really do seem to trouble you don’t they?
“@ ^ John Morales : The people who actually watch the video know.”
Sure. But you linked to a mention of it in some other thread.
And whether Scott Manley reckons it’s what they expected is not that interesting.
Not that awesome. Or fucking numinous.
“Clarity fix : Words and the shift in meanings based on context really do seem to trouble you don’t they?”
No. Words and ‘shifts in meaning’ (polysemes, presumably) are fine.
Awesome! Numinous!
Sure. Steep children in religiosity in their formative years. Awesome! Numinous!
Perfectly fine.
Again:
I don’t believe it. (It’s incredible!)
No biggie for you. Children whose parents have a non-believable drive to produce faith in their progeny.
You just don’t care. Because of the numinous!
@44: “Maya” meaning “illusion” is a Hindu term, not Christian; see Wikipedia. I have no idea why Christian parents would choose such a name, either. I suppose it could also be an unusual spelling of “Maia,” who was a Greek goddess, mother of Hermes and of the Pleiades; the month of May is named for the Roman version of Maia. So maybe the child is named for the month of May? Your guess is as good as mine.
@ ^ Steve Morrison : Thanks. Yeah. Really dunno. Named after someone called Maya who one or both of them knew and really liked? A private reference to something? Anyhow, again their choice & not a bad name in my view. Just not very XN-y – which is fine.
@46. John Morales :
Er, I don’t care that much because it ain’t my business or family and there’s nothing I can do to stop it or demand they be other than they are and I’m not in charge of their kids. Nor am I a child education specialist or expert so I’m well out of my fields of expertise here.
I do feel sorry for any children being indoctrinated but there’s nothing that special or unusual about that especially in the USoA where that applies to the majority of kids there not just the Glovers in particular.
Could be mistaken & don’t really know but I don’t think Glover’s kids will be particularly badly brain-washed or exceptionally badly taught since Glover seems pretty reasonable aside from his religion and he seems to accept science and other people’s views just fine.
What would you have us say and do here about a Christian astronaut’s children being.. presumably raised Christian?
No. Not “perfectly fine” but very common and a lot of children overcome it – altho’ I’m sure it does some damage and isn’t ideal but, also, telling other people how to raise their children and what they can teach them is really kinda a douchebag move.. & see above bit again in my previous paragraph..
Among other things the latest Artemis II news report :
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2026/03/30/infinite-thread-xxxix/comment-page-1/#comment-2297461
Notes that the astronauts all trained in geology for this trip and the new perspectievs they’ll get onthe lunar, well selenogrpahy I guess? I expect that Glover accepted that and didn’t insist on any YEC bulldust during it?
^ Because presumably they would’nt have let him fly if he had?
@tethys #17: Agreed!
Well, they’ve splashed down safely now. Integrity is back floating in the Pacific Ocean and being recovered with its crew alive and well as I type.
Artemis II flight concluded successfully and beautifully.
Oh and, no, they didn’t do an Apollo 8 at least not in the sense of getting all religious-y or quoting the buybull during the flight. At least not that I heard.
Everything I heard from the crew including and esp Victor Glover was reasonable and even inspiring and progressive and nothing really Christianist at all.