A certain Brown University biology graduate has taken an unfortunate step, one that we asked him to avoid. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana has signed a pro-creationism bill into law, all to pander to evangelical protestant hicks. We know this is a guy with national aspirations, so he’s taking a big gamble that we aren’t going to swing back towards a more sensible secularism, since the only people who could vote for him now are fundagelical god-wallopers who don’t understand science. That may be a fairly big voting base, but I’m hoping that it’s shrinking. Either Bobby Jindal is toast… or we all are.
One bizarre item in that story is that the reporter contacted the Discovery Institute, who quickly disavowed any association with the bill, saying that they did not “directly” support it and that they certainly wouldn’t support any attempt to insert religion into the schools. Like everything that comes out of the DI, they are lying reflexively. Barbara Forrest has an excellent overview of the context and history of the bill — the bill has the DI’s frantic, fervid paws all over it.
I do think we need to call this the Bogalusa Bill, after the district that the sponsor, Ben Nevers (a creationist and a democrat, for shame!), comes from. It’s a name that just trips off the tongue, like a happy fusion of “bogus” and “loser”, said with a lovely New Orleans drawl.
I hope that signing this bill causes problems down the road for Piyush “Bobby” Jindal’s political career, but I frankly suspect he’ll have more trouble with his gig as a freelance exorcist. Even Catholics, for whom “exorcist” is a recognized Church job description, will find that episode creepy. It’s funny that my parents, who are devout Catholics and believe things like demon possession are possible, still suspect Jindal is goofy to have dabbled in it.
I think the quickest way to kill this law is to openly encourage the 84% (although I’m sure the numbers are much smaller in Louisiana) of biology teachers who don’t teach creationism to actively use this law to openly attack ID in the classroom and show its vapidity. Do you realize that this law now protects those who do that? ID has shot itself in the foot in a big way.
I hope all the good folks of LA are ready for more wasted tax dollars going to deal with the upcoming lawsuits that we all know will happen.
I believe the “not going to allow proselytizing” business about as much as I believe the DI wasn’t involved here.
Lets hope the law suits are quick and expensive so other states get to see the price of the one true path.
Very well. Who shall be the first brave soul who will bring that filthy piece of rag to court?
In the UK there there is a law that allows local polticians, but not MPs, to be held personally liable for decisions they took if it can be shown that at the time they took them they knew them to be illegal.
It would seem Lousiana could do with such a law. It might have concentrated minds.
The DI may be starting its denial of support earlier than they did in Dover, anticipating that there will be some bad outcome.
I’ve explained elsewhere why this bill, of all the “academic freedom” proposals yet, gives the supporters of good science education the best shot at keeping creationist materials out of classrooms. It may even be a two-edged sword, given that the law requires the teaching of the textbook subjects, presumably including evolution. Only then can supplemental materials be used but the requirement to teach the textbook isn’t explicitly tied to using supplement materials. Teachers who want to teach evolution could use the law as an excuse, saying they are required by this law to teach it.
Sounds like the DI is going “on record” now to ensure they will have (im)plausible deniability later.
Even if remotely, this bill is squashed, we will not be free of religious crap from this backward state.Their swamp god is too firmly entrenched among the muck to pry it loose. No harm(?) in trying though, as things sometimes work out for the better in unexpected events.
When I lived in Jackson, Mississippi for 5 years, LA was the one state I could make fun of as being worse. I am glad that can continue in light of Jindall’s stupid decision, even though I have vowed to never set foot in either state again.
There, better.
Absolutely sickening.
If this happened to my kids, I’d be beside myself. I’d also print out 30 copies of the Wedge Document and make damned good and sure every student in the class had a copy. I think I’d even volunteer to go into the classroom as a guest and give a PPT on it.
Pardon me, but these demented f-wits PISS ME OFF.
Grrr.
screw the louisianna legislature, i sueing the creator for bad product design. the design of this spine is absolutely criminal.
If I am an LA educator the first thing I’ll want to teach is the wedge document followed by the Jones ruling.
Anyone here a fan of old New Orleans Jazz? To me, the word Bogalusa brings to mind the song “the Bogalusa Strut”. The Bogalusa Bill doesn’t seem to have the same booty-shaking effect. No wonder Louisiana state and local governments have failed the people of New Orleans – they’re populated by bat-shit crazy fundies like Jindal.
I hope they get a huge celebration of Pastafarians out there in LA now. Given that they will now allow “other material” to supplement science classes, I think it’s about time for someone to supplement a class on weather with the graph showing the relationship between pirate reduction and global temperature increase. Perhaps supplement an earth-science class with the picture of the primordial earth, Mountain, Tree, and even the Midgit(sic).
Honestly, I expected to hear more out of the FSM people on this one. They tend to be the best defense against this sort of thing by showing that once you open the door for one person’s woo, you open it for all of them.
Only if ID is considered not religious. This could lead to an interesting flip-flop: you could have LA fundamentalists arguing that ID is religion, not science, and therefore the weaknesses of it can’t be taught it class.
This is a terrible development for the kids in LA, but if craziness ensues in LA classrooms it may at least serve as an object lesson for both sides: to fundamentalists that it is not in their favor to put their beliefs to the test, and to moderate politicians that ‘teach the controversy’ leads to religion in the classroom.
It would be most excellent if Jindal’s career somehow suffered as a result of this. To that end I’ve made a modest gesture of my own: Open Letter to John McCain. Sometimes these things have legs, but often not. We do what we can.
Bring on the law suits – let’s put this to bed for good.
Bogalusa was once known for its rabid KKK branch whose members tried to prevent desegregation with a particularly fervent hankering for violence. You can hardly expect enlightenment from a bunch of hinterwald hicks like that. But since LA ranks 47th in educational achievements in the nation we shall not rest until we have conquered those three remaining spots. Onward christian soldiers, onward !
#15 – I think you have something there HumanisticJones. Along with FSM the teaching of Hesiod’s Theogony would be helpful. 8th century BC religion is just as good as flying jeezus.
Honestly I didn’t think any state could better Texas in stupidity, after all Texas has not only the FLDS they have House of Yaweh too! How jolly.
Bogalusa was once known for its rabid KKK branch whose members tried to prevent desegregation with a particularly fervent hankering for violence. You can hardly expect enlightenment from a bunch of hinterwald hicks like that. But since LA ranks 47th in educational achievements in the nation we shall not rest until we have conquered those three remaining spots. Onward christian soldiers, onward !
The problem with lawsuits is the obvious- we only need to loose ONE and science education is negatively affected nationwide. Winning ONE against the Hydra of religious f***witery only means you must be prepared for the next.
I attended the opening of the Audubon Insectarium in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago. Jindal’s missus spoke about how much she and her family enjoyed learning about science. As PZ put it so succinctly a few days ago: “Right now, my yard is littered with a couple of tons of twisted, smoking scrap irony”.
As a Georgian, I am mightily worried that my state is falling behind in this sort of lunacy.
Wanna see more Gooper hilarity? This one just boggles the mind…
http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/CraigVitter_0627.html
But let’s not forget that the local school boards in Louisiana are most probably full of creationist nutcases, so even if there are a minority of creationist biology teachers, how is this whole thing going to work out ?
I suspect the chief result will be a chilling effect on teachers who teach biology and general science. They’ll leave evolution alone, though if they’re smart and up for a fight, John Pieret is right, it seems to me — this bill could require the teaching of evolution, and global warming. If two hundred Louisiana teachers did that, the Louisiana lege would turn purple biting their tongues about not saying anything on the record to squirrel the legal appeals.
One of the things that is most sinister about this bill is the way it tries to pass the buck to the local school boards. They will be asked to approve creationist materials, and if they do, they get sued. If they get sued, neither DI nor the Louisiana Family Forum will support them in the litigation, I gather. This is a real “hang the educators out to dry” act.
One more skirmish in their and Rev. Dobson’s War on Education. One more skirmish in the War on Science. One more reason to get Republican mitts off the Supreme Court nominating process.
Loss for LA is, maybe, a gain for Ohio. Come up you’all here..Alece is waitin’.
Dear Dr. Myers,
As founder of Brown Freethought, Brown University’s humanist, secularist, atheist, skeptical, yadda, yadda organization, I ask you to cease and desist from saying “A certain Brown University biology graduate…” If you continue, we will have no recourse but to team up with Ken Miller to destroy you. I know we both don’t want to bring a theistic evolutionary biologist into this, but the “nuclear option” will remain on the table.
Sincerely,
David Sheffield (Fiziker)
P.S. For all those not seeing the insincerity in all parts of this comment besides the post scripts: Brown Freethought has no intention of destroying PZ Myers, and were he to ever visit and give a talk (HINT) no harm would come to him.
P.P.S. Oh, and Jindal’s a loon.
Dad gum it! They gone and done it agin.
Tom @ #24,
As a once resident of Cobb county during the time of a certain event, I can assure you we already had our share of the anti-science woo/lawsuit game. I shall refer to the warning stickers on the science books warning students that “This book contains information on evolution.”
We couldn’t get the same concession out of the churchies for stickers on the Bible proclaiming “Warning! This book contains information on Creationism.”
Fisiker,
isn’t there a famous graduate from Brown university who can speak out openly about his atheism, I don’t know but as a casual observer from old Europe, after Jindal and Miller, one would start to get the impression that it’s a religious institution or something of the sort.
P.S (said in a provocative and dumb voice)
The Bogalusa Bill? Seems to me it should really be called the Bogus Loser Bill.
Unfortunately, it depends entirely on the local school boards making good decisions. More importantly, it gives the local school boards more power to make bad ones. One need only to look to Dover, PA to see why this is an issue.
PZ, Pleeeze let’s not tarnish the good name of Bogalusa Parish! It is home to a superbly run, important and productive prospective study in children and young adults: The Bogalusa Heart Study. Science at its best!
Why not hang the bell around the neck of the cat that signed the freakish bill.
Negentropyeater,
Give me a few years.
The religious right was flushed out this year by the GOP that nominated McCain. His first big test as a candidate will come when we see whether he panders to the theocrats.
All is fair in such warfare, so why don’t we just start teaching cephalopodism in the schools of Louisiana? If they’re going to receive a half-rate science education based on a fantasy, we might as well make it more interesting then some jew being nailed to a cross. Why not teach them the way of Cephalopodism? Feed, change colors, attack prey, reproduce and then die. How quaint and exciting a lifestyle. Far better then doing the same thing but not attacking the prey.
At least the food is good. I am ashamed to say that I am actually FROM Bogalusa – not born but raised. In all honesty, it’s a very smelly town and I was glad to get out. The kind of ignorance raised by Ben Nevers is, unfortunately, rampant in the town. I had the good luck to have a great high school biology teacher, but I’m sure he’s retired by now.
Louisiana might as well put up a sign at every border saying “Scientists and other well-educated people not welcome. Send those high-tech jobs elsewhere.”
A friend of mine was a very, very, very good middle science teacher for several years. He quit, in part, because he wasn’t alllowed to teach evolution. There were, to be fair, other reasons, and he probably wouldn’t have continued on for very many more years, anyway, but at least a few years worth of kids in his school district (Indiana–this kind of nonsense is not restricted to the South, of course) were deprived of one of the best teachers they would have ever had.
Bobby Jindal is toast… or we all are…PZ
Such an alarmist with his own brand of secularism…lol…The responses in here, are quite amusing following the signing of the bill. You all think they are square dancing right now in LA? lol Before Jindal was elected as Louisiana’s governor, politics in that State was very corrupt, worse than Chicago’s politics. He is turning that State around. There is no doubt he will be governor for a long time despite the flap over this bill.
“Critical thinking” doesn’t introduce a certain religion in the State’s education. I heard there are even some atheists who like this bill. It will be interesting to see how this progresses with the oversight contained in the bill as the science books (just like other text books) must be approved by the State. Also, state boards can prohibit materials that they believe are unsuitable. I can see special interest groups going crazy with these provisions…lol
the bill specifically stating that it cannot be construed to promote religious doctrine.
dubiquiabs –
Bogalusa is actually in Washington Parish and I was a part of the Heart Study while in school. It is a great program.
I wonder if litigation will be next. Anyway, I’m rooting for all of you.
#17 concerning open letter to McCain
ROTFLMAO
Good one!!!!
If I were a JHS or HS science teacher in LA, I’d dig out the most scientific-looking thing the DI has to offer (in a one-page double-sided format written suitably for their age) and put it up as an possible alternative to evolutionary theory, with the following caveat:
“With respect to the religious beliefs of each of you as my students and with respect for those who may not have formed religious beliefs, I present this theory of Intelligent Design.
However, under law and rightly so, we are not allowed to have religious discussions in the classroom, unless the material of the class happens to include religion, which by definition the science class does not.
So while you are allowed to believe in Intelligent Design over the theory of evolution if you like, we can simply go no further in discussion of it in this class if you suppose that the designer was God (any deity). If you want to discuss the possibility that the designer was an outer space alien, that is another story. Even then, students, while the idea is interesting, for me to even suggest that possibility, I would need scientific proof to back that up, just as I would any other theory.
I believe I will [or “have”] adequately provide[d] that proof for the theory of evolution. You may choose to disagree, and that’s OK. It is not a requirement that to get an A in this class that you believe … , well, anything about science, if you really are determined not to. All you have to do is demonstrate an understanding of the processes of how science works and knowledge of some of the things it has discovered. The unit on evolution is only a small part of the total biology curriculum. Let’s not get bogged down in useless time-wasting discussion, when y’all have your FCAT’s [or insert other state-mandated standardized test here] to worry about.
I guarantee you Intelligent Design Theory is not on that test, and won’t be until the scientific evidence for it is sufficiently greater than it is today, by which time you will be in college (or have a Master’s degree, or married with four children, or be an old man/woman with 13 grandkids).
So, show of hands, kids, how many of you want to learn what’s on the test so you can perform well on it?
And how many of you want to waste time in your science class discussing something that ultimately cannot be proven, thereby causing you to not learn what you need to know on the standardized test, and causing the school to be censured for poor performance and have the school and perhaps even your teacher monetarily punished for not sufficiently covering what is on the state curriculum?
Once again I remind you, the learning of how the scientific theory of evolution works is only partially required if you wish to do well in this class, but the belief in it is emphatically not.”
Sorry to have to put it in such crass terms (as I am no fan of standardized tests linked to school and/or teacher performance), but that’s exactly what the HS science teachers in Columbus, OH are so cheesed about over this John Freshwater guy teaching creationism in his 8th grade evolution science unit pretty much in exclusion of evolutionary theory. And what he does teach about evolution, it appears he tells the students is actually wrong.
As far as I can see, even if Ohio had the so-called “Academic Freedom” bill that LA now has, Freshwater STILL would end up being fired because he clearly has been promoting religion – the Christian religion – in his classroom. That is unfair to students who may be of different faiths, and unfair to students who may want to someday become scientist themselves.
Properly monitored, this bill will not harm LA education. But if (as I suspect) the decisions about what constitutes “scientific evidence” are left up to school board members (who tend to NOT be scientists and tend to be swayed by the opinions of those who will vote to keep them in their position – sounds like a conflict of interest to me, but that’s another thread we could discuss), the only recourse reasonable people/parents have to prevent science education from reverting to before the 1920s is to make sure they do everything to vote out any school board member who shows the slightest tendency towards ID and “teaching the controversy” which would allow, nay, perhaps encourage, teachers to waste time in classes on their own soapboxes, and/or allow students to waste valuable time in class on issues that can never be resolved nor proven.
Elections are coming up. Do yourselves all a favor. ASK whoever is running for school board this time around their stance on this issue. Drill them until you have a sense of what they know (or don’t know) about science. Try to explain to them how, generally speaking, ID theory is really creationism and therefore unsuitable for the American public school classroom, by law.
And if they are still unconvinced? Tell them ID theory just as well supports the idea that humans beings were “designed” by outer space aliens, and that that’s what they will be allowing into the public school science curriculum if they allow that Intelligent Design theory should be considered in fact “science”.
We know this. But idiot teachers will try. And it will cost the state millions of dollars.
Dear Turdheads,
This is the first of Expelled’s children, with a nod to ID and the DI.
You will have to get larger buckets to bail your fairyland Titanic theory and keep it afloat as more and more people question your BS paradigm.
A biologist from the big leagues questioning the evolanders? Yes and about 1,000 more qualified scientist types I am aware of,,, publically.
Barbie and her NCSE pimps are sucking air and there is much more on the horizon to generate frenzied flailing about with spittle on their lips.
Let the kids into the life boats first, just as in LA.
You will have to get larger buckets to bail your fairyland Titanic theory and keep it afloat as more and more people question your BS paradigm.
We don’t have to do any bailing. As any competent (and even a large number of incompetent) biologists can tell you, evolution is firmly established as science. It’s the guys keep trying to peddle a 2,500 year old creation myth as scientific fact, who are having problems. Why do you think the Discovery Institute backed away from this law? They don’t want to fight another losing legal battle.
dear Keith
Thanks for dropping by.
I was getting a little down about this bill passing and all, but then you show up to remind me of the raw stupidity of the people who support ID and, well, I can’t help but be cheered up by it.
@ 42-
Doug, I apologize for succumbing to the Saul Steinberg effect. Thanks for setting me straight.
#47
So where is the body of peer-reviewed research from the ostensibly legitimate science of ID? Where is one single peer-reviewed research paper providing data in support of ID or refuting evolution? Anyone? Anyone? Yeah, that’s what I thought.
I’m in Australia, so my familiarity with US college entrance requirements isn’t great, but can the local colleges do anything about it? Like say they won’t accept high school graduates who haven’t been taught from a proper science curriculum?
Surely telling parents that if their kid is taught ID rather then evolution in the classrooms the only place they can ever expect to find work is while wearing the uniform of a fast-food chain – or one of the armed forces – is going to have some impact.
Out of how many scientists? Like 400,000+? That’s more like someone taking a shit on the properly named poop deck of the Queen Elizabeth II (you had the wrong boat). We just clean your mess up and sail on.
He obviously adheres to the old saw: “There’s no such thing as bad publicity as long as they spell the name right. As long as your face and name is out there, as long as you’re dancing in the public eye it doesn’t matter whether your laces are untied or your sock has a hole or your hair looks like you combed it with a corkscrew or you endorsed evil religious stupidity or you preformed a fancy dance step in a Minnesota airport toilet. Any publicity is good publicity.”
It’s funny how some attention seeking whores still come here blathering stupid creationist/id nonsense when they know they have no evidence or proof of their beliefs. They blinding believe in the largest, most elaborate of fantasies, while those of us grounded in empirical thinking and rationalism strive to understand nature. Actually, I apologize to all the prostitutes reading this, because it’s unfair to group you in with these mindless creationist assholes. At least you’re providing a service that benefits manking, as opposed to these fucking fanatical retards constantly addressing the same old faulty logic that was present in aristotlean times. While you’re at it, why not completely dissociate yourselves from reality and embrace geocentrism. Either way, anything you happen to speak is pure utter garbage anyway, so why work hard to sound legitimate? Yes, I know, because you have ignorant people to confound and recruit into your idiotic ranks. Well, enjoy the fantasy while it lasts, and when your lives are over, and you have nothing but archaic notions to show for it, perhaps then, a small dose of reality will reveal itself.
Umm, Helioprogenous… you might notice that the troll post in fact contains no argument nor any logic, faulty or otherwise, at all. It’s not intended to be part of a dialogue; its sole purpose is to satisfy “Keith”‘s emotional need to lash out at those he sees as the Evil Other.
There are a lot of people indulging in similar behavior on the ‘net. My own pet term for it is “authoritarian aggression by proxy”. One of the truly sad things about the advent of the Internet is the way it enables these maimed, follower personalities to obey their compulsion to parade their symptoms in public. Nowadays anyone can have the cyber equivalent of a screaming, filthy urban street lunatic piped right into the comfort of your own home.
Progress- don’t you love it?
Why are you picking on Brown about this? Jindall is also a Rhodes scholar and he has a degree in political science from Oxford. Why not pick on them?
In the end, he’s just another politician who realizes that the way to get reelected is to tell a good chunk of the electorate what they want to hear. Whether or not it actually gets implemented the way they want is another matter.
And Michael@#41. Don’t you go insulting Chicago politics. Chicago’s way of doing things is at least as bad as Louisiana’s and probably worse. (OK. We’ll give you the David Duke thing; that was really bad. But overall, Chicago is worse. And you gotta count in the rest of the state, and that adds a whole other level of stinkiness.)
Great now that one kid has gone and done I expect to see others taking this more seriously. Minnesota had a version of the bill die in committee this year, I expect to see it back with a flourish next year.
I am most concerned, because the K-12 science standard are currently being redone and a public draft will go out for comment in September most likely. I expect huge problems at that point as the theocrats realize evolution is still the major part of biology (hopefully much more emphasized than the water down biology standards we had under the Yecke et al watch). Once that happens, I foresee a big push for the Academic (is a bad elitist word) Freedom (to maintain my ignorance and force it on others) Bill.
Lucy @ 14 Yes, “Bogalousa(with a “u”) Strut” is a hell of a jazz number from the city that gave us this incredible music, New Orleans! “Bogalousa Strut” was recorded on October 22, 1927, by SAM MORGAN’S JAZZ BAND. He is the only old time jazz band from the 1920’s that recorded this title; not even Louis Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, and Joe “King’ Oliver, all new Orleans greats, recorded it and it remains unknown why they did not! It’s been recorded by traditional jazz bands of today but does not have that spontanaiety and pure original jazz from the 1920’s. This music is long before my time, but once I heard it, I just latched onto it, as it is the most unique American music originating from our great country. “Bogalousa Strut” is on a JAZZ ORACLE CD # 8002. The name of the CD is “OSCAR “PAPA” CELESTIN / SAM MORGAN Recorded in New Orleans 1925-1928 The complete Recordings In Chronological Order. Give a listen; you may like it as I do!
ktesibios at #56:
You stated; “…one of the truely sad things about the advent of the internet is the way it enables maimed, follower personalities to obey their compulsion to pararde their symptoms in public…”.
I agree. That’s a good description of about 99% of internet blogs, this one included.
Maybe God will strike them with another flood for their stupidity?
Maybe God will strike them with another flood for their stupidity?
The operant qualifier in Keith #47’s post is:
Scientist types
at least he’s honest
sort of
Please everyone.
Vote on independent polls for this guy so that we can openly ridicule the entire republican party and Jindaal himself for? Well just being stupid I guess. Lots of fun in store. I can hardly wait.
Scooter at #63,
It’s always an interesting debate on who is a scientist and who isn’t. What would you say is the difference between a scientist and a “scientist type”? A few years ago I heard Jimmy Carter on NPR’s Fresh Air program tell Terry Gross,”I’m a scientist…”. Carter, as far as I know went through the Navy’s Nuke Power program, but would that make him a scientist? Of course, Terry Gross, faithful to all things liberal, didn’t take issue with the claim.
Way to go Jindal; you’ve just held back your constituancy in order to progress your own aspirations for national office.
Sort of on-topic – here’s another poll for you folks to play with: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4599813a6000.html – should creationism be taught in NZ schools? This follows the distribution of the DI’s latest offering (Privileged Planet) to all our secondary schools. Our Ministry of Education’s spokeswoman doesn’t see anything wrong with having it in the classroom; methinks I’ll be writing to the Minister…
The operant qualifier in Keith #47’s post is:
Scientist types
Yeah, but they’re so sciency!
Appropriately enough, speaking as a St. Tammany local, Bogalusa is known mainly for its horrific stench. (If you’ve ever heard the “kiss me where it smells” joke about New Jersey, I grew up hearing it told about Bogalusa instead.)
Its only industry is a sizable paper mill, and periodically the smell will blow for miles into the affluent communities of Covington and Mandeville.
There’s an effort underway to recall Jindal:
http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/22239964.html
Of course, it has nothing to do with his advocacy of Intelligent Design Creationism. It is Louisiana, after all.
I live in Baton Rouge, La., although I can fortunately say I’m not a native of the state. Louisiana and the morons in its government who are responsible for this mockery of law and science deserve ample criticism.
But there are a lot of decent, intelligent people here too. The state has/had several freethought and humanist groups, including the very active New Orleans Secular Humanist Association, which started an annual Darwin Day program in 2000 at the University of New Orleans. The school’s academics eventually took it over and now run it. This year’s speakers included Michael Shermer and Barbara Forrest. Barbara is famous, of course, for helping to defeat the Dover Cretinists with her testimony about the evidence showing that ID was simply a euphemism for creationism. She’s also a member of NOSHA and has been one of a number of people, both academics and other residents who tried to stop Jindal. It’s politics at work here, not some widespread stupidity in the state. The Baton Rouge newspaper ran 3 editorials attacking the bill, and had a lot of pro-science, pro-evolution letters.
Unfortunately, my hard-earned money is going to be stolen to help defend this nonsense in court, and then to pay the plaintiffs after they win. Barbara Forrest and other evolution defenders here are also taxpayers, and their money too will be stolen to advance religion and undermine both science and the U.S. Constitution.
Some people might say we should leave, but the decent people in Louisiana have reasons to be here, and I’m not going to leave just to spite the morons behind this garbage. If all the decent people leave the state, then no one will be left to battle the fundamentalists.
By the way, if Professor Myers hasn’t made plans yet for next year’s Darwin Day events, he might get in touch with La. biology professors. If he hasn’t tried south Louisiana food, he should plan to stay several days. I’m sure he has plenty of Pharyngula fans here who will be more than happy to take him to all the right places, the ones that only the locals know, where you get the best gumbo, jambalaya, crawfish etoufee, po-boys, beignets, etc.
Come to think of it, after a few days of food and music, he’ll probably stay for a few years to help fight the cretinists. The state could use another science hero.
gleaner at #65
good question, I’d guess a ‘scientist’ is anyone involved in research who gets published or in the private sector who gets honest patents.
Apparently Carter is confused about the difference between an engineer and a scientist.
Funny aside, a freind of mine was a nuclear submariner for a few Navy hitches.
He said the Naval Nuclear Engineers were fiercely opposed to Nuclear power plants. They said the only reason sub nukes are safe is because they are surrounded by water, and anyone who would put a nuke on land is crazy.
@Wowbagger (#52):
Actually, this has happened in California. The University of California school system was sued because they felt that biology classes from the Association of Christian Schools International did not meet admission requirements.
The result of that lawsuit is posted at the NCSE website, along with a link to the 31 March press release.
FREE AT LAST,FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY FREE AT LAST.
WELL A ANTI-TOE IN THE DOOR.
First I note Myers slurs Evangelical character although Louisiana is not known as very Evangelical and in fact uniquely Catholic in personality. The governor, I believe, is the first Indian-American (India). Though hyphens are unAmerican and there is too much immigration in America as up here in Canada.
This is a expected historical development. Censorship in major areas on contention does not stand its ground in America. It always comes crashing down.
Teaching truth or teaching to seek the the truth is the winning strategy albeit the journey.
Creationism is going to be recognized as equal in merit for the science class.
A slight majority questions, despite the establishments preaching, evolution and company accuracy in conclusions on origins. A solid majority believes both sides should get a hearing in the science class.
Christian interpretation of origins is of long precedent. In fact the intellectual foundations and progress of Protestant Europe, perhaps Catholic too, was all hand in hand with Christian doctrine. This is admitted by the constant claim of how this idea in science or that was counter to religious doctrine.
Freedom of though, speech, inquiry, criticism of big ideas, is the stuff of a intelligent free and progressive people. Creationism being banned and EXPELLED in classrooms is an absurity from old human concepts of thought control.
Genesis will find its back into the classroom as it is in the homes, hearts, and streets of America.
The bad guys should just try and make a persuasive case for students. On the merits of evidence and not degrees on the wall.
I just read the text of the law, and to me it looks good.
http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=482728
It only asks for “discussion of scientific theories…including evolution…”. Since ID is not a scientific theory, it can’t be discussed. No problem. Any attempts to show that ID did meet the criteria of ‘scientific theory’, with the inevitable massive fail, would be good education for the students, and when they try to settle that issue in court, it will be Dover all over, and the end of ID as we know it. Unless you’re a Louisiana taxpayer, what’s not to like?
The bad guys should just try and make a persuasive case for students. On the merits of evidence and not degrees on the wall. – Liar Byers
No, first the bad guys – the lying cdesign propentsists – have to do some actual scientific research; only science should be taught in science classes, and they don’t have any, can’t do any, aren’t interested. “Goddidit” is not a scientific theory. Nor is science a popularity contest; large numbers of Americans believe that aliens are abducting and experimenting on people, that astrology works, that crystals are magical – do you propose teaching those “theories” in science classes, Liar Byers?
I notice, by the way, that even though it tends to undermine what you were saying, you just couldn’t keep your racism under control, even for one comment.
Keith at #47:
A biologist from the big leagues questioning the evolanders? Yes and about 1,000 more qualified scientist types I am aware of,,, publically.
Ah, but how many of them are called Steve?
Creationists are making America into the laughing-stock of the Western World.
Robert Byers (Comment #74):
I know, it’s so redundant of him when you do it so well yourself.
Not by anyone with a bastard clue about science, it won’t.
More junkyards of irony. Creationism is excluded from science classes because (a) it isn’t science, and (b) in those areas where its claims are scientifically testable, it has been comprehensively shown to be wrong. The only justification for even mentioning it in a science class would be as a particularly egregious example of how not to do science.
Given this, the only other possible reason for teaching it would be to indoctrinate children into a fundamentalist ideology. But you’re against thought-control, right?
That’s precisely what we’ve been asking creationists to do for decades now. Instead, they try and sneak their claims into science classes by manipulating the law, rather than making a case on its own merits.
Incidentally, is English your second language? Or possibly third? Or was English composition just one of those classes you skipped out on, along with science and history?
Jindal is probably toast.
Regardless of the ID bullshit, this idiocy about him being a crusader fighting corruption is going to die down soon. Jindal already has his Republican constituency turning on him for not vetoing the legislature giving itself a pay raise. Some of them already introduced a (spurious) petition to have him recalled for it.
Also, people are beginning to remember other little things, like how he took $20,000 in donations to his campaign for switching sides, to oppose American recognition of the Armenian genocide. That might seem obscure, but this is not the behavior of a “righteous” man.
There is a great blog post on Jezebel from last month that breaks down Jindal’s “exorcism” to reveal that more likely, Jindal was just hung up about his own sexuality, the usual motive of religious zealots.
Oh yeah… and Washington Parish has more than the stinking paper mill. It has locally famous watermelons and Bogalusa is the birthplace of Professor Longhair.
Oh noose not Byers (#74) again !
This is another one of those creo-seagulls who will keep comming back and just posting his absolute crap from time to time. He’s not here for argument, just for poluting the threads with his nonsense.
His blog and his books are evidence that he is a complete facist creobot of the worst type, absolutely incapable of making any rational argument whatsoever.
http://watchmanswords.blogspot.com
(just take a look at his “random ramblings” on 6/18/08 to get a very quick preview of how severly damaged this loon’s brain is, actually he does call it a “brain dump”)
I strongly suggest ignoring this wackaloon, or ridicule, or insults. That’s all he deserves.
I should tell my medical students to come here and read creotard posts,its at times really a great example of scattered thinking and formal thought disorder,like currently on display by Mr Byers,they could really practice their psych skills.
//Creationism being banned and EXPELLED in classrooms is an absurity from old human concepts of thought control.//
WTF?? Those good ol human concepts of thought control,them were the good times….
Clinteas,
well the interesting thing you could show your medical students is that the creotard brain when it’s being used to think about subjects other than religious ones also seems to arrive systematically to nonsensical conclusions :
-I hate the Visa Olympic commercial. I do not and will not say “Go World.” I say Go USA. If Visa wants to be an American company, they should too.
-Recording TV shows and skipping the commericals rocks. The guy who invented that should win the Nobel prize.
-Global warming? With snow in Washington state in June? Yeah right. It’s a complete lie based not on the environment but on gaining control of people’s lives.
-The man most people expect to be Barack Obama’s National Security Advisor said (seriously, I’m not making this up) that Winnie the Pooh is a very useful treatise on international relations. Boy I just can’t wait for the second Carter term to start. Wonder how many Americans will die because of the Boy Wonder’s fabulist world view.
(this is just a random sample of Mr Byers Brain dump, when applied to non religious matters)
As one can see in the pathological case of Mr Byers, the creotard brain is affected for absolutely any kind of critical thinking process and it obviously doesn’t matter what the issue under consideration is.
Of course the subject is completely incapable of realizing how these delusions are affecting his brain and will keep giving his opinion on any issue, politics, science, technology, business, advertising, anything goes.
Neg,
I have been saying this before,but one hallmark of schizophrenia is the utter lack of insight,and we find that regularly in creationists or any other religious fundamentalists,the cognitive dissonance is sort of what follows later,to keep functioning in every day life..
Its all a lil sad isnt it !
Robert Byers @ 74 Does your imaginary shit god live in your demented brain or your rectum? If in your brain, will you suffer a subdural hematoma because of gaseous pressure, or if in your rectum, can you shit it out in one miraculous expulsion and then worship it? Inquiring and rational minds want to know! Can you get it to appear and beat the crap out of us, or is this just impossible because nothing will ever happen?
You know, Byers, you give Christianity a bad name.
You say:
After the Arkansas and 1987 Louisiana cases, the law was this: All creationism had to do to get in the biology textbooks without any special intervention from a legislature or a schoolboard, was provide some experiments, published in science journals, showing the science behind it.
Creationists claimed that they were prevented from publishing in science journals by bias. Recognizing that, if true, this would be the make-or-break argument, Judge Overton in the Arkansas case asked creationists to produce a few examples of the science articles they had submitted to science journals that had been rejected.
They could not find a single example. Why?
Because creationists don’t do science research. They have nothing to report.
That was 1981, 27 years ago, Byers. since that time I’ve earned a law degree, had two kids, graduated them both from high school, and got on with life. In that time more than 10,000 papers on evolution have been published in science journals, annually.
Do you know how many papers on creationism were published? Two, if we count the ID papers — and one of them was retracted.
Byers, there’s no science in creationism. You’re practicing false witness. Go see your priest and confess before you take communion.
Have any of you actually read this bill? I just read it (thanks watercat, #75) do not understand any the fuss associated with this bill, it is all blown completely out of proportion. The bill specifically states that it cannot be misconstrued to promote any religious beliefs. It’s designed to promote critical thinking for a variety of scientific theories…so what’s the problem??
“The bill specifically states that it cannot be misconstrued to promote any religious beliefs. It’s designed to promote critical thinking for a variety of scientific theories…so what’s the problem??”
Could you please name one criticism of evolution? Can you give even one example of a specific area where it fails to explain observed phenomena? From your tone, there should be dozens, if it merits changing classroom curricula.
For bonus points, can you conceive of an experiment to disprove even one tiny aspect of evolution? I mean… we are talking about a science class here.
I have to dissent on the suggestion that the bill be called the Bogalusa Bill. I think it does disservice to the Choctaw who gave us the word.
“FREE AT LAST”
Please. You’ve been free to babble your mumbo-jumbo in churches for thousands of years. Why isn’t that enough for you?
“Christian interpretation of origins is of long precedent. ”
Hindu interpretation of origins is of even longer precedent. So what?
“A solid majority believes both sides should get a hearing in the science class.”
Why the science class? Why not the science lab? Why does it always start with the children for you people? Is it because you don’t care if you’re right or wrong, as long as you have some silly answer that makes you feel special?
If anyone is still visiting this thread, you might want to see how the Louisiana legislature apparently loaded up their hearing witness with creationists. I tell the tale at my blog: Louisiana Legislature Used Creation Science Witnesses. (Shameless plug.)
scarshapedstar: “Could you please name one criticism of evolution? Can you give even one example of a specific area where it fails to explain observed phenomena? From your tone, there should be dozens, if it merits changing classroom curricula.”
If evolution is truly beyond dispute or critique, then classroom curricula need not be changed, and thus there is nothing for people to fuss over. If criticisms of evolution are taught, but the theory is as sound as you imply, that should only sharpen the student. Either way, sounds to me like a winning situation for the teaching of evolution.
Ed Darrell Post 85
Your misunderstanding. Creationism must be allowed because the separation claus was meant to be neutral. Today its used just to censor creationism etc.
The science class is used today to attack Genesis by way of teaching evolution etc.
The claim of creationism is that origin subjects are not ones open to the scientific method.
Therefore nobody is doing science in these things. Yet the evolution etc crowd claims, as you did, to be doing it. Therefore the people through their legislatures believe creationism should be given equal time with other origin theories in the science class even though neither side can apply actual science.
Origin subjects must be open too the great opinions on them. The long precendent biblical foundation and the small circles that study matters relevant to origins.
Creationism is as scientific as evolutionism etc. The great Dr Morris always streesed this.
The science class is to teach the truth, the journey to the truth, on truly great things in existence. Creationism criticises some present opinions in “science” and therefore should not be banned. In fact its banning is unconstitutional but is wanted by the establishment.
Creationism historically and now has won its spurs. In fact evolution should have to work harder to get a audience before the people.
Modern creationism is well equiped to present to kids or anyone viable and better explanations for certain origin subjects.
Louisiana sees the old cemsprship ways have not helped in interesting their kids in science and so the free market of ideas might once again be the way up.
Freedom of intellectual discussion is bad mostly for the folks who are wrong.
Probably not the only things they are wrong about.
Cheers from Canada to Lousiana.
P.S.
Some folk here think I have a webpage or something on which I talk.
Mis-identity. What is it with evolutionists and atheists and entry level error. Try harder.
Robert Byers said:
Nope, it is used to censor the teaching of falsehoods to children. As evolution is science and not religion, it is not affected by the separation clause.
Robert Byers said:
A literal account of Genesis (which one, by the way?), yes. That’s because Genesis does not comport with the facts of reality. That’s tough luck, I’m afraid, but it should be telling you something. In fact, it should be screaming out to you that perhaps, just perhaps, it’s you that is wrong, not God. Amazing, I know.
And why should there not be a scientific explanation for the diversity of species, along with all other aspects of life that M.E.T. attempts to explain? Because you say so? Because you have decided that a book that was written by numerous people and contains more errors (admittedly, many are not significant) than there are words in it, is more important than God, Himself? How arrogant is that?
Why would God have given us the ability to reason — something that has helped us to create the modern world, saving and improving billions of lives in the process — only to fool us in to thinking that life evolved? Do you worship a mendacious God, Mr Byers, a trickster? And why are you denying God His glory by not accepting His method of creation? It would be nice if you had even bothered to look in to it, but I am almost certain that you haven’t. What if you have lived your life denying God’s methods? Have you even thought about that?
Robert Byers said:
Google Scholar only highlights 2,900,000 results for “evolution”! It’s clearly not science, though. Come on, you can do better than that, Byers.
The problem with creationism, as Ed Darrell has already alluded to, is that it hasn’t followed the basic requirements to be classed as science, and it doesn’t comport with reality (at all). You may not see that as a problem, but thankfully many other people do.
Robert Byers said:
No, science is not about truth. It can only falsify. The currently accepted (by mainstream science) theories are taught in schools. Anything in science can be overturned by new evidence. The fact that the T.O.E. has survived 150 years of intense scrutiny is a good indicator that we are on to something. That does not mean that we have a full understanding, however, and there are still many debates ongoing concerning the various mechanisms and interpretations of the evidence. Strangely, none of those include creationism.
And creationism does not “criticize present opinions in science”. It misrepresents them. I won’t accuse people of lying, although some are almost certainly doing just that. I would have to be sure that the creationists who are spreading these falsehoods understand that that is what they are doing. Make no mistake, this is a very charitable interpretation. But it does not lessen the moral burden. Misleading children, whether purposeful or not, is morally outrageous.
And it is this that has lead, to a large extent, to the skepticism about evolution. While it is basically an easy idea to understand, explaining it to the satisfaction of people who would obviously prefer that they were specially created, is not an easy task. In fact, just as it is highly likely that you do not have the first idea about how much evidence points to life evolving on this planet over roughly 3.5 billion years, nor do most of those who would claim to not accept it. If nothing else, that is intellectually honest. For those who actively fight against it being taught in schools, it’s scandalous to not understand the evidence.
Robert Byers said:
So too is racism, communism, astrology, etc, and any other bad or vile idea that you can think of. That does not make it science, however. And the “free market of ideas” only works if you are honest about your idea in the first place. I could invent something that is extremely persuasive to people, but if it is pure nonsense from top-to-bottom, how is that likely to help us? If you genuinely believe that we should be teaching nonsense to children, you have a warped sense of morality.
But you continue denying God His glory, Mr Byers. I wouldn’t expect anything less, to be honest.
A couple of corrections:
(1) “Nope, it is used to censor the teaching of falsehoods to children.”
I did not mean to imply that the separation of church and state was designed to prevent falsehoods being taught in schools. Only that, in this instance, that is what it
isshould be doing.(2) “If nothing else, that is intellectually honest.”
Yes, it should say dishonest.
separation claus – Liar Byers
Is that Santa Claus’ younger brother?
dubiquiabs:
There is no Bogalusa Parish. Bogalusa is in Washington Parish.
Byers: Learn about LA before you try to discuss it. The Catholics have been in the minority in most of the state for years. The Crazy Protestant invasion from Texas, Arkansas and Mississippi has pushed Catholic influence down into the south-southeast portion of the state. The idiots have even infected some Catholic churches which are now “charismatic”.
True Louisiana is south of the I-10 parallel and east of I-49. The rest is East Texas, South Arkansas and West Mississippi.
The only reason Catholic Jindal is governor today is the shame at having one of their own fail so miserably and the state fair so poorly because they wouldn’t vote for a brown person 4 years ago. Unfortunately, the interim four years in Congress have ruined Jindal. He’s been shown already to be a wishy-washy popularity seeker. Please let McCain take him away!
Warren #71
“I’m sure he has plenty of Pharyngula fans [in South Louisiana] who will be more than happy…”
Second.
Excs fr tht I ntrfr … I ndrstnd ths qstn. Lt’s dscss. Wrt hr r n PM.