Here’s an odd correlation for you: whenever I take a swipe at the foolishness of Scott Adams, I get a major uptick in the usual trickle of Christian email. I don’t quite see Adams as a friend to Christianity, although he does seem to foster the kind of shallow thinking on which religiosity thrives. Anyway, for your delectation, I’ve put a couple of samples below.
First, here’s something we can expect to see lots of in the next year. I’m no fan of Obama myself, but this kind of silly slander is contemptible.
Who is Barack Obama?
Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita,Kansas.
Obama’s parents met at the University of Hawaii . When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.
When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia. Obama attended a MUSLIM school in
Jakarta. He also spent two years in a Catholic school.Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is quick to point out that, “He was once a Muslim, but that he also attended Catholic school.”
Obama’s political handlers are attempting to make it appear that Obama’s introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya
soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over his son’s education.Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham, introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta.
Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who re now waging Jihad against the western world.
Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking Major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.
Let us all remain alert concerning Obama’s expected
presidential candidacy.The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level – through the President of the United States, one of their own!!!!
ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office – he DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Quran (Their equevelancy to our Bible, but very different beliefs)
Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man leading our country?…. ..NOT ME!!!
I think he’s also confusing Obama with Keith Ellison in there, which is not a good sign of his concern for accuracy.
This next one…well, my name is not Mr Scott. You will not be surprised at this product of a muddled mind:
No God?
Mr. Scott:
In your writings about atheism, you appear to be a very smart man. I wonder where you got your brain from. It couldn’t be from a Higher Being now, could it?
Throughout your article filled with 50 cent words that I’m sure you gathered from a college degree (kudos on your hard work); it is sad that you are not on God’s side. You would make a magnificent warrior; but then I’m sure Satan is glad to have you on his side. I don’t remember the exact quote but it has been said that don’t worry about not believing in Satan…because he sure as hell believes in you. I say this because if you don’t believe in God, how can you believe in Satan? After all, Satan was a fallen angel from heaven.
As Jesus said to His desciples (again, no exact quotes) after arising from the dead: “You saw me and believe (that He is risen)…Blessed are those who have NOT seen me and still believe”.
I’m sure it saddens Jesus’s heart, knowing that this world is full of ‘doubting Thomas’s’…and it saddens my heart that you (and many others) are unwilling to remove your blindfolds and realize that Jesus suffered 5480 blows to his body before being so cruelly put to death on the cross. To further His pain, his arms and legs were ripped from His sockets as well. His knees would have been broken along with the two theives who were crucified beside Him but by then He had mercifully died. (You will find this mentioned in “The Pieta Prayer Book” in the ‘Fifteen St.Bridget Prayers’…whereupon Jesus spoke to St. Bridget).
What a magnificent country we live in Mr. Scott that we can not only believe as we so choose but put our thoughts on paper (or in this case, the Internet) as well…with no thought of being punished by our government.
How many times must Jesus die on the Cross before you believe in His (and the Holy Trinity’s) existence? Oh ye of little faith. Open your eyes before it comes time to stand before the One you say does not exist and He asks you to put your hand into his wounds. I’m sure you’ll believe then.
May God bless you and all other athiests of this world.
Mary McLuckie
And neither of these clowns can even spell “atheist” correctly.
Zeno is athey, I am athier, and PZ is the athiest!
Ther you go again, being all athier-than-thou, Matt :).
PZ, I know that your going to be annoyed by this, but the first is obvious satire.
People who take great pains to conceal things don’t quickly admit to things.
Also, the excessive use of caps is also indicative of satire. Or possibly, PYGMIES AND DWARVES!
Religion is just magical thinking, or no thinking at all. Sometimes people can compartmentalize their lives and can be actually intelligent and rational in their thinking apart from religion.
It seems that many of them, however, cannot compartmentalize. These are the poor devils who view all of the world in terms of magical thinking, empty religious dogma, and pointless rituals. These are also often the ones that drone on and on about praying for you, quote nonsense from their religious texts, and like to put several fonts of various colors in their communications.
Apparently, god loves bright colors and capital letters in the absence of lucidity and rationality.
My apologies PZ. On more careful reading, I am quite wrong. It isn’t satire, just really bad arguments… Um… I meant to argue that to begin with..
To show the incredible ignorance of Ms. McLuckie, her description of the crucification is totally inaccurate. I suggest to Ms. McLuckie that she read the acccount by Jim Bishop which was published some 50 years ago. For starters, Joshua of Nazareth did not die on the cross as a result of crucification. He was stabbed in the side by one of the Roman centurions before being taken down at sunset because the Jewish sabbath begins at sunset on Friday (he was only up on the cross for a few hours; victims were known to last as long as three days before dying of suffocation).
Perhaps the first message is “obvious satire” to Archgoon, but “obvious” is in the eye of the beholder. This is the sort of stuff I get forwarded to me by family members who are deadly earnest in their desire to spread the word, sound the alarm, alert the troops (choose whichever urgent metaphor most appeals to you; they use them all).
Sometimes, in the dark recesses of my mind, I fear that most of today’s ills are based on the credulous over-reaction of paranoid idiots to satires they didn’t recognize. The first e-mail quoted by PZ is far from being the most extreme thing I’ve seen taken completely seriously by wackos who considered themselves “informed citizens”.
Yikes.
Obviously the first email is playing on fears of miscegenation.
“5480 blows to the body” Is that in the Bible?
Someone’s arm was pretty tired, I’m thinking.
Actually, the first one is NOT satire — it’s from a guy who sends me this kind of nonsense on a regular basis, sometimes several times a week.
Trust me, you’re only seeing a fraction of the daily crapwallow in my inbox.
Gosh I dunno what to say. After those two convincing arguments, i’m giving up atheism. It’s just a shame they couldn’t have made things this clear earlier……
Zeno,
Yeah, sorry :). Part of my belief was fueled by my incorrect reading of the entire post leading me to believe that Adams had written the first post. Yay for total reading comprehension failure!
I need more coffee.
Then Jesus should freaking do something about it. If you believe the Biblical account, Jesus was well aware of the value of providing evidence for his extraordinary claims; he walked on water and calmed storms in order to convince people of his divinity. And when that same doubting Thomas expressed his doubt, Jesus said “hey, dude, look at the holes in my hands. Doubt that.”
And yet, 2,000 years later, we’re all supposed to swallow our doubt and believe on faith? Why is it that when Jesus was confronted with doubters, even holdouts like Thomas who hung out with him and still apparently disbelieved, he’d provide them evidence, but his followers regard doing so as some grand sin against faith?
If Jesus is so upset about all us doubting Thomases, then he ought to get off his holy duff and start a worldwide “look at my wounds” tour. Otherwise, I suggest the faith-heads go back and actually read the passage that they’re basing their comparison on.
The Obama piece is NOT confusing Ellison; this is most likely a Rove-style dirty trick by the RNC, related to the Faux News-lead headlines last year shrieling that Obama went to a madrassa in indonesia.
Unfortunately, the knuckledraggers that comprise Faux News audience believe any sort of bullshit that gets put in front of them. I’ve received the same email.
Funny thing about Christians who always try to emphasize Jesus’ suffering is that his death was uncannily usual. There are much worse ways to suffer, including but not limited to the Brazen bull, impalement, lingchi, and hanging, drawing and quartering.
I’ll not have the good name of Wasabism slandered so! Wasabi is a delicious and necessary component of all manner of Japanese seafood! Wasabi is an excellent compliment to the pickled ginger! Wasabi is an excellent contrast to…
…oh. He said, “Wahabism”. Man, that’s nothing. I heard that this Obama guy smokes! He might even market cigarettes with ammonia additives to preschoolers. Whudafxup?
“5480 blows to the body” Is that in the Bible? [#10]
It is, actually. God pencilled it in in the margins.
Ironic that you would get mail like this after critiquing Scott Adams, considering that in Adams’s next post on Pascal’s Wager, he announces that he thinks Islam is most likely to be the One True Faith.
We need more power to the engines, Mr. Scott! Oh, sorry, wrong number… just in case, you might want to stay away from wearing red shirts, though.
“He asks you to put your hands in his wounds.”
Freaky. And poor wound care, it might end up spreading Messiah Resistant Streptococcus Aurelis.
“I’m sure it saddens Jesus’s heart, knowing that this world is full of ‘doubting Thomas’s'”
You made the Baby Jesus cry! Shame on you!
“5480 blows to the body” Is that in the Bible?
Nope, this was revealed to St. Birgitta of Sweden in 1346.
From the second letter:
“In your writings about atheism, you appear to be a very smart man. I wonder where you got your brain from. It couldn’t be from a Higher Being now, could it?”
At this point I couldn’t help but think of Dana Carvey as The Church Lady saying, “Who could it be? Hmmmm? Could it be SATAN?” That was the voice I pictured for the rest of the letter and I actually laughed out loud. Try it.
BruceJ: I’m sure PZ was just referring to the bit about taking the oath on a qur’an being confusion of Obama with Ellison (which is true re: Ellison, he used Jefferson’s copy), not the whole thing with the madrassas and all.
5480 = 2 * 2 * 2 * 5 * 137.
Christ was allegedly struck a number of body blows that encodes the reciprocal of the Fine Structure Constant, which is also the average molecular weight (in daltons) of the 20 standard human amino acids!
God is great! Woohooo!
Scott Adams is not on God’s side therefore he is on Satan’s side therefore he must believe in Satan? Makes perfect sense.
Let me try:
Scott Adams is NOT Susan B. Anthony WHO WAS A SUPPORTER of UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE therefore Scott Adams SUPPORTS SLAVERY.
Man, that’s some serious ‘shroom trip thinking.
Wasabi is a delicious and necessary component of all manner of Japanese seafood!
And bloody marys
JVP: 5480 is actually the Goedel encoding for
The Bible = False.
Who knew?
I always find it funny that in letters like the Obama one that there is an underlying theme of fixation.
Whether there is any truth to the claim that Obama was en-rolled in a wahabi school makes no difference to me. I’m much more interested in knowing if he holds extreme wahabi beliefs today. It’s clear that he doesn’t, but to the composer of this letter, the suggestion (true or not) that he was exposed to wahabi teachings automatically make him anathema.
I see a similarity with the IDiots who claim that exposing children to evolution will indelibly corrupt their belief in god. Or to those who claim that the death penalty is an approprate punishment. Or those who claim that computer games create violent behavior.
There is this strange idea that once a person is exposed to an idea, they cannot critically examine it and accept or reject it. Instead, exposure means automatic acceptance. And the only way to reach a perfect society is through preventing exposure to unacceptable ideas.
Ted Haggard’s anti-homosexual rants are forgivable because he has recognized that he is corrupted (not my viewpoint, BTW), and thus while he is a miserable sinner who has to rely on god’s mercy to get into heaven he is actively trying protect other children from being exposed to the idea of homosexuality and thus become corrupted themselves.
The underlying theme is that people do not change. People cannot choose to act with kindness or hatred. People are good or bad, and nothing can be done to change them.
Clearly I don’t feel this way, and as far as I’m concerned the evidence is pretty clear that people can (although some don’t) change their viewpoints and opinions all through their lives.
i think the basic xtian/woowoo reaction to anyone writing about religion is thus:
xtian: “hey! someone saying something about my invisible guy! I must respond with ironclad arguments”
(hours pass. keyboard clicks slowly mark the time. “Send” is hit, with no sudden regret, confirming initial suspicion of idiocy)
msg body to whoever wrote whatever: FAAAAAAAAAAARRRT.
(caps represent sincere conviction)
flex: change is a sign of weakness!!1!
plus, reading wahabi all those times made me hungry for sushi
Wait a minute. First Jesus appears in a tortilla, and now they’re praying to pita?
Or is that Saint Pita now?
BruceJ @ #16 –
Rep. Ellison took his oath of office on the Koran. That’s the part that PZ is referring to by stating the author has confused Obama with Ellison. As far as I know, Obama did not take his oath on the Koran. We would have heard about it, believe me. We would still be hearing about it.
“Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who re now waging Jihad against the western world.”
In fact, this is completely false. Wahhabis are NOT the jihadists. The Saudi government is Wahhabi, and it is one of the major targets of the likes of Osama bin Laden, et al. Their political and ideological descent comes from the Muslim Brotherhood by way of Sayed Qutb, NOT from Wahhabism. The latter is a conservative ideology which has (in my opinion) a lot to be despised, but Wahhabis can barely reconcile themselves with the idea of a radio, let alone guns, bombs and encrypted cell-phones.
The first email has been going around so much it has an entry at Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
Delurking to add that the Obama letter has been posted at http://www.snopes.com for about a year now. You can read their discussion of the email at The Enemy Within
Katrina
Figures. My first ever comment here, and I’m beaten to it by five minutes.
Garth, et.al.,
You gave me an idea. I think I’m going to refer to all religous schools as wasabi-schools.
After all, horseradish is close enough to horselaugh to make it an enjoyable in-joke to me.
I hate to tell you PZ, but Scott Adams is a much deeper thinker than you will ever be. You’ve fought creationists for so long that you’ve begun to adopt their tactics of false certainty and ruthlessly attacking any idea that offends you emotionally. The arguments you laid out regarding Pascals Wager had been dealt with by Mr Adams in his post. Surely you knew that, but you chose ignore this fact and instead argued, somewhat childishly against exerpts the did not capture the true nature of his post. In this matter, you’re no better than Fox News.
I hate to tell you PZ, but Scott Adams is a much deeper thinker than you will ever be. You’ve fought creationists for so long that you’ve begun to adopt their tactics of false certainty and ruthlessly attacking any idea that offends you emotionally. The arguments you laid out regarding Pascals Wager had been dealt with by Mr Adams in his post. Surely you knew that, but you chose ignore this fact and instead argued, somewhat childishly against exerpts the did not capture the true nature of his post. In this matter, you’re no better than Fox News.
Odd. Years and years of going to my parents’ conservative church while growing up (and I grew out it, thank Zeus), years and years of Easter services and evangelistic retreats and being told over and over how Jesus died horribly for my masturbatory hobbies–yet I’ve never heard of the exact number of blows inflicted on Jesus. You would have thought that his flogging would be important enough to expound upon.
Thank you, Mary McLuckie (is that a real name? Not a pseudonym coughed up while eating a bowl of Lucky Charms?), for edifying the rest of us.
Mary McLuckie?
She was Mary O’fuckwit before she married.
Why do these people make it their goal in life to endlessly quote that idiotic testament:
“As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….” “As Jesus said….” “”As Jesus said….”
Do they think we are illiterate idiots who can’t figure out, without the aid of a fundie nut, what Jesus fucking said!?
Leave us the fuck alone, quit with the broken record routine, stop imposing your idiot beliefs on others.
Thanks a lot Tom. I’ll have the image of the brazen bull stuck in my head for weeks now.
Hahahahaha!
Adams is a deep thinker! Ohhh. Dats a good one.
And Bush is a gifted Diplomat and Cheney a empathic
person who cares about the average man.
Yeah. Right.
Funny, as I read it, Adams did nothing except handwave away PZ’s arguments with more logical fallacies. He did it in a cookie-cutter fundie fashion.
That’s one thing that’s got me once again suspecting that there’s a ghost writer involved.
Oh, and Brandon, you obviously never read anything PZ had to say. There’s no false certainty involved. Certainty is something that we pretty much reject. You also obviously didn’t pay attention to the myriad of logical fallacies we’ve all pointed out.
We ruthlessly attack any idea that’s logically fallacious. The fact that Adams is maliciously lying just makes it a little bit more personal.
So, why don’t you bring up one of these phantom “true nature” bits?
Not only do I not believe in god, I also don’t believe in the line “i before e except after c”
It’s obvious our language doesn’t.
i before e, except as in e^i 2pi
Don’t know.. The problem with assuming that Wahabi are not Jihadists is that it presumes that just because they don’t like technology, and want to see it erased, means they won’t use the enemies tools against them. Things I have read from people in every place from Iraq to Syria imply that, within the bounds of the areas they do try to shove their ideology, they have no problem at all using a bomb or gun, with the express purpose of killing everyone that makes bombs and guns, that one day they won’t have to touch such evil things. Its the same sort of idiot hypocrisy you get from Christians who ignore their supposed 10 major rules, in favor of lying or killing everyone that won’t follow the right rules out of existence.
Are they in the same class as Osama’s bunch? No. But they are no less dangerous, within the limits of the places they act. And they *have* been known to cross borders occasionally and muck around with other countries. And just to be clear, the government itself “isn’t” Wahabi, but one of their princes founded it as a private army, with the belief he could control it effectively (one of their insane philosophies is that you follow your king, even if he is corrupt and evil, because not doing so is a sin, but nothing they order you to do is *your fault*, since you are just following orders, you don’t actually believe in the corrupt or evil acts they ordered you to perform.
Basically, they are even more nuts than Osama’s bunch, who at least are doing what they do, not because its been ordered, but because they think its right. Someone that will do anything at all, because following *your orders* is mandated by God that you follow them, no matter what that is… That’s a whole new category of insane.
Then again, I suppose the 4-5 identical descriptions from people living in the ME of what their philosophy says could all be identically wrong.
By the way:
LiveJournal goes after teens writing smut in private journals, yet ignores Dominionist promotion of actual and very real child abuse.
what’s the solution?
do you think if hard-nosed atheists everywhere committed a few hours of their time every week to seeking out online forums and trying to persuade people with simple logic, over time they would eventually get it?
it seems unlikely, since most people seem to have no capacity for following trains of logic or for critically evaluating evidence.
(thus, i think, the real long-term solution is better science education in primary and secondary school.)
but maybe it just hasn’t been tried? i mean, i know after even a single frustratingly futile attempt that i lose the will to argue. maybe if we stuck to our guns, all of us, consistently, then eventually some people would start to listen?
or maybe we should start a fund that could hire a few masochistic souls to take on this online rebuttal task as a full-time job?
So, if my intention is to join one of these Muslim schools but I have not yet done so, does that make me a Wannabe Wahabi?
I had to ask…
Kagehi,
well said. Check this story from dailykos today :
“Convert Or Die” Game Sent To Troops In Iraq w/Pentagon Blessing
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8/8/91955/84979
scary
The first e-mail misses the golden opportunity to point out the the United Church of Christ has been labeled “Gay Lovers” for their support for gay rights. Come on, if you are going to do a smear, make sure you throw in everything possible.
Why would we want an intelligent, charming President who is aware of countries outside of the US and is willing and able to talk persuasively to people who have different backgrounds and interests — when we’ve done so well with an insular idiot who can’t make it to the end of a simple sentence and views the rest of the world as either Christians or evil-doers?
BTW, no, this story (see my post #54) is not made up ! As unbelievable as it may be…
PZ, if you read this, please help make this mind boggling story out.
Thanks
This has always struck me as an argumental Catch-22. They try to convince you with a threat (good job), but it’s a threat that will only scare you if you are already convinced. It’s like the old joke “I’m not superstitious because it brings bad luck” taken seriously. You’d think they’d have seen that by now.
This has always struck me as an argumental Catch-22. They try to convince you with a threat (good job), but it’s a threat that will only scare you if you are already convinced. It’s like the old joke “I’m not superstitious because it brings bad luck” taken seriously. You’d think they’d have seen that by now.
The Biblical account is that Jesus was dead before being stabbed in the side by the Roman. From the English Standard Version, John 19:31-34,
Other accounts have Jesus dying after 6 hours of crucifixion, after saying “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Luke notes that Pilate is surprised to hear of Jesus’ rapid death.
In #58 I wrote:
Sorry, that’s while still on the cross, I should make clear.
“50 cent words?” I’ve only noticed a rather normal vocabulary, nothing stands out as a great big COLLEGE word. But then, I’m educated too, so what do I know? LOL
“Jesus suffered 5480 blows to his body before being so cruelly put to death on the cross. To further His pain, his arms and legs were ripped from His sockets as well. His knees would have been broken…”
And fundies whine about tv being too violent. At least the rest of us aren’t wallowing in imaginary violence to an imaginary being. Anyone else notice that every year, it gets a little worse. Last I heard, being crucified was really bad. Now its 5480 blows (but who’s counting?), limbs ripped from sockets and broken knees. What will they dream up next?
“How many times must Jesus die on the Cross before you believe in His existence?”
Oh, will there be a matinée?
flex:
I think that on some level these people must realize that their beliefs cannot stand up to critical evaluation. Therefore, any exposure to, and subsequent critical examination of, contrasting ideas will lead to the rejection of their ‘deeply held’ beliefs. I think that’s why they want total isolation from other ideas.
This has always struck me as an argumental Catch-22. They try to convince you with a threat (good job), but it’s a threat that will only scare those who are already convinced. It’s like the old joke “I’m not superstitious because it brings bad luck” taken seriously. You’d think they’d have seen that by now.
This has always struck me as an argumental Catch-22. They try to convince you with a threat (good job), but it’s a threat that will only scare those who are already convinced. It’s like the old joke “I’m not superstitious because it brings bad luck” taken seriously. You’d think they’d have seen that by now.
People die on the cross from suffocation.
The head fallen forward from exhaustion causes them to choke to death.
“How many times must Jesus die on the Cross before you believe in His (and the Holy Trinity’s) existence?”
That depends, Ms. McLuckie, how many times is he going to die in total? I’ll probably need all of them to fully believe.
That’s just a guess though, so let’s see what happens.
Ah, but why clutter a perfectly good scare tactic with anything resembling a “fact”?
Well, if he’s truly God, as many times as he likes, I suppose. Unless, of course, God isn’t truly omnipotent.
why’s everyone down on doubting thomas? i always had a soft spot for thomas in sunday school. he’s the only guy in the bible who asked for evidence.
John Marley wrote, “I think that’s why they want total isolation from other ideas.”
And to protect their children.
Because we know that unprotected exposure to ideas is dangerous. So to ensure your children get into heaven, innoculate them with a religious prophylactic early in their life and limit their exposure to unwholesome ideas during their formative years. The resulting rubber-like encasement of their minds will prevent critical thought and enable a protective denialism of reality sufficient to counter the most vigorous attacks of atheistic materialism.
Heh, I watched “The Magic Christian” again last weekend and I just recalled one minor bit between Sir Guy (Peter Sellers) and Youngman Grand (Ringo Starr):
Youngman, “Dad, do you think words corrupt?”
Sir Guy, pensively, “I don’t know, Let’s try. Agnes?”
Dame Agnes, looks up from television, “Yes?”
Sir Guy, “Nipple.”
Dame Agnes, “Shh.”
Sir Guy, waits for a moment, “Well, there’s no immediate physical change.”
Cheers!
Saw an Islamist (a Sufi) explain the corrupt, hedonistic Saudi ruling family’s use and financial support of Wahabism. Seems they were deeply shocked by Khomeini’s revolution in Iran and the support it got in the Muslim “street”. According to the expert (sorry, can’t remember his name), the Saudi fear of losing their supposed primacy as defenders of the faith coupled with a vague Arab inferiority complex vis. Persian history and culture led to the open embrace of Wahabism by the house of Saud in an attempt to maintain its exalted position in the Muslim world. A definite two-edged sword; they may maintain support because of their $$$ but be exposed by Wahabi purists as the hypocrites they are.
Sonja, last I heard, Obama was ready and willing to nuke Pakistan, an ally and nuclear power, because they are trying and failing to capture Osama bin Laden within their borders. I’m finding myself solidifying against him, and his faithiness doesn’t help matters.
The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level – through the President of the United States
If the past six years are anything to go by, they’ve already made a really good start.
How many times does Jesus have to die on the cross? Probably about as many as Christopher Lee rose from the grave in those Hammer films.
I’m surprised that after addressing you as Mr. Scott, she didn’t tell you that Jesus needs you to power up the photon torpedoes.
“Ready and willing to nuke Pakistan”? For sure?
A week ago, everybody was upset at Obama for saying he wouldn’t use nuclear weapons against Al Qaeda “under any circumstances”.
p.a.: The House of Saud has been synonymous with Wahabiism since the 18th century. They rose in power because they tied themselves to a modern reformation (like Protestantism) of Islam, rather than being simply one more local chief trying to take over the world.
Of course, application of Wahabi principles is for the serfs and not the lords. Just like in Europe’s reformation.
Anyone read Radio-Free Albemuth by PK Dick? A quick buck could be made re-writing it with Muslims replacing Communists.
And since almost no one saw The Manchurian Candidate, how about The Iranian Candidate?
The Gumby background is perfect for the Mary McLuckie nee O’Fuckwit email. It’s the attention to detail, Prof. Myers, that really makes your blog stand out.
PZ, would you please for the record explain precisely what Scott Adams does which is so wrong?
I like both PZ and Scott.
Scott strongly appears to be an atheist, no matter what silliness he posts in his blog.
I consider myself an agnostic, but we’re all still pretty much on the same page (I tend towards grouping ‘god’ with ‘santa’ and ‘the easter bunny’)
We’re all in agreement that there is no god- so now what is there to argue about?
Barack Sr. couldn’t have been a very good Muslim, if he married an atheist.
Sheesh Will, you make it sound like PZ issued a fatwa on him.
Flex (#31) – A fine comment.
Blake (#73) – Thanks for waving away some of the smoke.
That first email (about Obama) has been circulating for a while; I found it flopping around in my inbox at least six or eight months ago. (Hey, did all y’all know that Barak rhymes with Iraq, and this his middle name is HUSSEIN? I said HUSSEIN. Just in case you missed it: HUSSEIN.)
Sheesh.
Say, did all y’all know that George W. Bush’s first name is George? As in the tyrannical King George? How can we elect a man named after our former oppressor?!
Adams is such a timid lackwit that he thinks disagreeing with him on the interwebs is the equivalent of declaring a fatwa, so sure. Look how he crows triumph if anyone bothers to point out his logical fallacies — he’s supposed to be ignored, so rebutting him makes him indignant.
Can we change the term to “asatanist” to help the duller tools in the shed to understand? Not that they have any interest in understanding so it’s probably hopeless but it may be worth a try.
Besides, it isn’t atheism that makes the baby jesus cry (NSFW), is it?
Will asks:
PZ, would you please for the record explain precisely what Scott Adams does which is so wrong?
And answers:
…silliness he posts in his blog.
There ya go…
MR. PZ: Perhaps we are more alike than either of us realizes….Mr. Scott
(I get this stuff too, y’know)
I swear that same Obama rant has been posted to the internet movie database forums a hundred times in the past year. I read in comments above it appears on Snopes. Too bad the guy besides being a dolt is unoriginal.
The McLuckie mcemail is the one I suspect to be mcsatire.
Things I have read from people in every place from Iraq to Syria imply that, within the bounds of the areas they do try to shove their ideology, they have no problem at all using a bomb or gun, with the express purpose of killing everyone that makes bombs and guns, that one day they won’t have to touch such evil things.
Sorry, this is simply wrong. Can you provide citations? I would be extremely surprised if you could. Wahhabis (or, rather, salafists, as they prefer to be called – Wahhabi is considered a perjorative) are simply parochial and conservative in the extreme. They are opposed to minarets, for god’s sake, because they are too innovative. The dangers of Wahhabism have been greatly exaggerated. The only danger they pose is through the narrowness of their ideology; they are not violent jihadists.
Also, you’re incorrect regarding how Wahhabism started – it was not created by the house of Saud; Abd al-Wahhab merely converted the head of the Saudi clan back in the 19th century, and it flourished as a result of that tie.
I have to agree. I keep getting this kind of garp forwarded to me from my fundy aunt. She takes it very seriously and also seriously thinks that I should be persuaded by it.
Usually, I just delete the stuff, but just this week, I tried to explain the fallacy of the argument from authority and why her last forwarded missive was unconvincing to me. I immediately got more of the same for my trouble.
*bangs head on table repeatedly*
Is it any wonder that I flee here immediately after checking my email?
Stogoe #71,
Obama was criticized for saying he would NOT nuke Pakistan. He did say he would use the military to go after Bin Laden in Pakistan if there were actionable intelligence as to Bin Laden’s wearabouts. He said he would do this with or without Musharraf’s permission.
The Bush administration’s policy is to treat any country that harbors terrorists as an enemy of the US. However, in Pakistan, they’ve left it up to Musharraf to get Bin Laden because they don’t want to put his regime in jeopardy. The catch-22 is that Musharraf stays in power BECAUSE he is not going after the terrorists within Pakistan.
A little more in the same vein as Mr. Stacey with reference to Stogoe’s claim of…
Sonja, last I heard, Obama was ready and willing to nuke Pakistan, an ally and nuclear power…
That just plain did not sound right or match my recollections of recent news stories. So a little digging turns up this news snippet that is the most concise…
I made a simple proposition that I’d like anybody here to challenge me on,” Obama said of his Wednesday speech in which he said that he would use military force in Pakistan, a U.S. ally, if necessary to root out terrorists.
Obama also sought to clarify his assertion, prompted by a reporter’s question, that nuclear weapons would be “off the table” in such an attack.
The Obama alarm email is not satire. The wingnut websites that argue that he is definitely (“definitely, definitely”) the Antichrist are also not satire. Neither were the emails circulating three years ago claiming that that foreign chick with the funny elitist accent, Theresa Heinz Kerry, was using her great wealth (which was of course all earned by her late Republican husband) to fund leftist terrorist groups all over the world.
There are no depths to which these people will not sink in their efforts to smear; there is no thought too stupid or outrageous to be disbelieved by those predisposed to believe.
(I know — I can spell Musharraf, but I can’t spell whereabouts.)
What else was God telling us with 5480 blows to the body of Jesus? Let’s look at the Online Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences.
We find 5480 in:
A003306 Numbers n such that 2*3^n + 1 is prime.
A061277 Numbers which have more different digits than their squares.
A025410 Numbers that are the sum of 4 distinct positive cubes in exactly 3 ways.
A112576 A Chebyshev-related transform of the Fibonacci numbers.
and a few other things.
http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/?q=5480&language=english
Isn’t that amazing! I mean what are the chances that any random 4-digit whole number means something to someone?
Remind me: when Jesus went to Grad School of the Essenes, majoring in Comparative Religion, what Math courses were required?
Do see Scott Adams arguing with Mark Chu-Carroll at the Good Math Bad Math scienceblogs archives. Mr. Adams is an intuitionist. But there are LOTS of numbers in the Bible. For example, the Book of Numbers.
QED
Re El Christador
Mr. Steve_Cs’ comment is absolutely correct and accurate. A healthy individual who survived the initial shock, could last as long as 3 days before suffocating to death. Joshua of Nazareth, who was certainly a fairly young (~30 years of age)and healthy individual was only up on the cross for a few hours. Furthermore, the biblical statement can’t possibly be correct. If he was stabbed in the side and was already dead, there would not have been the outpouring of blood as described. It is a well known fact that dead bodies don’t bleed profusely when stabbed because there is no beating heart to pump the blood. I would strongly recommend that Mr. Christador get ahold of Jim Bishops’ book, “The Day Crist Died.” I have to warn Mr. Christador that the descriptions therein are pretty gruesome and not for the faint of heart.
Is it wrong that I almost envy some of PZ’s crazy religious email? I used to have one or two Creationists who turned up at my (tiny, tiny) blog, including one who was convinced that Kent Hovind would never go to jail, but at the moment I’m completely out of people to expend my wrath upon. Personally, I find a little righteous anger good for the (for want of a better word) soul.
The best I’ve had recently is someone who half-assedly believed in the 9/11 conspiracy. Pfft. :(
MAJeff Post 29
You get my vote for the Molly. I lived in Japan for a year, love Wasabi, love bloody marys, and never thought to put the two together. You rock!
OK, I know, way off topic, expecting to be deleted in 5…4…3…
Just don’t waste it on a virgin mary–they’re not worth much.
Obama is a MUSLIM????? If we elect him, he’ll probably take orders directly from the Ayatollah!
(Anyone done that joke yet? Anyone? Anyone?)
The key word is “could”. What you are arguing requires “would necessarily”, not “could”.
You mean apart from the prolonged beating/flagellation and dragging the cross to the place of execution? Not to mention heat and dehydration.
Yeah, it doesn’t actually say there was arterial gushing, only that blood and water came out immediately.
To what purpose? ‘Cause, it’s not like I actually care.
Actually, regarding taking the Oath of Office – I understand that here is no requirement, and that the actual Oath for Federal Office in the USA is NOT taken with the hand placed upon any particular sect’s holy book. However, for the photo opp AFTER the Oath is taken, many Xians stage a picture with their hand on the Bible- I presume to modify reality to suit their expectiations. Ellison staged his photo opp with the Qu’ran, as he is a practicing Muslim.
Re El Christador
1. If Mr. Christador doesn’t care, why is he engaginging this discussion. By the way, it is my understanding that the beatings were administered with switches which would have inflicted surface wounds. I don’t recall that there is a description of beatings being administered with clubs which could have caused some real damage.
2. Mr. Christadors’ refusal to refer to Jim Bishops’ book is typical of the born again mentality, vis my mind is made up, the facts are irrelevant.
“You may not believe in Satan, but he sure as hell believes in you”
Gee, I never thought about it that way. I might have to change my whole opinion. If he believes in me, he must exist. Hmmm..
(takes tongue out of cheek and goes to get another beer)
SLC: It’s my understanding that the link between the literary object called the Gospels and any historical reality is tenuous at best, more likely wishful thinking. This argument is like attempting to ascertain the historical facts about 5k BCE floods in Mesopotamia by reading Gilgamesh. It tells you nothing other than that the Mesopotamians were reasonably well-acquainted with the concept of floods.
Are we to start arguing about which kind of rose led to the Man-to-Ass transformation in the Golden Ass? Or the age of the cherry tree that young George Washington cut down?
“Open your eyes before it comes time to stand before the One you say does not exist and He asks you to put your hand into his wounds. I’m sure you’ll believe then.”
So before Jesus tosses us ahtiests into hell, he’s going to prove that he’s real by grossing us out of existence?
frog,it is rather humorous (but ultimately time-wasting) to read arguments about whose version of Mel Gibson’s version of the “passion” was the more accurate. Oh, and wasn’t it Ass-to- Man transformation (via Venus on a half-shell), or has it been too long since I’ve read Apuleius? cheers
5,480 blows? No more, no less? I think someone’s watched The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre too many times!
Seriously, though, why is it that some believers are so obsessed with the blood and gore in that legend? Why does it matter how many blows Jesus supposedly suffered, or whether or not his knees were broken, etc.? Is that the point of the story, or are these people into S&M or something?
But what do I know; I’m just another heathen…
Having seen a number of these folks talk about, in almost orgasmic ways, what jihadists would do to queers, I’m gonna say they’re getting off on all of this. Maybe not all of them, but there’s an eroticism and fetishism of the beaten body, and of beating it into submission, that lies at the center.
@105 & 106:
A lot of nonconformist sects’ hymns show a great deal of sexual imagery about christ’s wounds. Try this one:
O precious Side-hole’s cavity
I want to spend my life in thee
There in one Side-hole’s joy divine,
I’ll spend all future days of mine.
Yes, yes, I will for ever sit
There, where thy Side was split.
(I’m not making this up, I copied it from E. P. Thompson’s “The Making of the English Working Class”. It’s from late C18)
Sick, sick freaks.
Blessed be the Lord Jesus Christ and His Divine sockets (not to forget the plugs). *lol*
I love Dilbert! Is this the same guy that writes Dilbert??
baryogenesis:
Lucius goes both ways. He first becomes an ass at the hands of a witch (or is revealed to be an ass), then Isis/Venus/Hot Heavenly Chick helps him become “born-again”. The Golden Ass is very interesting, in terms of its intersections with Christian theology.
“I’m sure Satan is glad to have you on his side”
You got that right! I like to have guys like PZ on my team. How else can I accomplish my goal of world dominion?
Cool, thanks for the answer PZ.
I guess I can let it lie now. He gets up your nose. Fair enough.
When did they say that? I thought it was the Soviets who said that. I remember my 6th grade teacher telling us that the commies promised to destroy us from the inside out.
Hmm… Maybe the Muslims are working for the commies! Neither group believes in the One True God!