The National Education Association is having their annual meeting in Philadelphia right now, and guess who’s there?
It’s rather like finding the Mafia has a booth at the police convention, but there they are, with lots of pictures, proudly peddling creationist dogma that is not legal to teach in public schools, and which can get school districts embroiled in expensive lawsuits, to teachers. This has been going on for years — there is a retired teacher who rents the booth, and AiG ‘donates’ huge quantities of freebies, so they don’t have an “official” presence, but they still have people advocating what, to a teacher, should be considered criminal activities.
I’m mystified why the NEA would allow this — any teacher in a public school who followed the advice of these clowns could land their school in very hot water, not to mention that they would be misleading and miseducating their students. Are there any teachers now at NEA who could let us know if there is any counterprogramming going on? Has anyone tried to inform the teachers visiting the AiG booth that teaching creationism in school spells big trouble? I’d also be curious to know what the attendee reactions are like: AiG is only saying positive things about their booth, of course, but I can’t imagine that no teachers are loudly arguing with those idiots.
I actually came across the blog of the person running the booth a week or so ago and called them out; they said that AiG is just “sponsoring” the booth, not actually running it. I guess they lied (shocking).
[Their original post can be found here]
Is the NEA only public school teachers or does it include private schools as well? If there are teachers around from Christian schools then I suppose this would be a time for AIG to target them.
I’d also like to know what kind of pro-science prescence is around. If they aren’t already doing so I think the NCSE should try to have some kind of prescence at something like this.
Figures. This is right in line with their “get in through the back door” approach to stuffing creationism into our public schools.
“Don’t work on the institution (the schools themselves); set to work on the individuals (the students, parents, and teachers), and they’ll find a way to get around the rules. And if things go wrong, they’ll be sued instead of us.
“In fact, that might even be a good thing. If school districts start getting sued into insolvency, that might make it easier for us to push our agenda. It might even lead to the downfall of the public education system. Then, once all our schools are private again, there won’t be an issue with having prayer, creationism, and all the rest taught!”
– The Trooth in Edukashun Manual, p. 666
It will be all taken care of. God appeared to me in a vision, and said that ALL AIG people will burn in hell for all eternity. Any teachers that fall for this crap will also burn in hell. Any school board that falls for this crap will get sued, and the members that allowed it to happen will also go to hell for all eternity.
Man, it’s times like this, that I wish I weren’t an atheist!
My next dream had better include some scantily clad females, instead of a smelly old tyrant…
I’m mystified why the NEA would allow this
perhaps they figure it serves as a valuable education on how creationists work?
I mean, watching someone shoot themselves in the foot over and over again speaks volumes.
saves money on the NEA having to prepare a seminar on how creationists work, too.
Wow, that AiG was full of worthless junk. I was annoyed, but found it a little funny when they talked about people they had discussions with and found humor in their anger because of excessive badgering they were doing.
McMillan –from NEA’s website:
I am currently pursuing elementary certification to teach public elementary school in the state of Arizona.
I have sent a comment to the NEA regarding this questionable decision.
http://www.nea.org/aboutnea/contact.html
PZ Myers wrote:
Perhaps the NEA may be at the bad end of one of those patented “moral outrages” orchestrated by the Concerned Wo-bots for America and Faux News if they don’t?
Thanks Thomas
For some reason I was under the impression that the NEA was a general teachers organization. Knowing that it’s limited to public school teachers does make it seem really bizarre that AIG would try and target this conference with material that is so obviously illegal to teach in public schools. Then again I’m too cynical to think that the fact that nobody should be teaching this in public schools means that there aren’t any teachers that decide to try and get away with sneaking in this kind of stuff.
My mom is currently in Philly at that conference. I’ll see if she can find out how AIG is able to get the booth.
The thing is, through her I’ve learned that teacher organizations like that consider organized religion to be the greatest threat to the educational process today. They ARE very aware of what the fundamentalists are trying to do, and they’re working to oppose it.
She’s told me a story about having a conversation with one of the people operating a booth like that before. It’s pretty much what you’d expect.. talk that more and more “real” scientists are starting to doubt evolution, mention of some professor at a college the person knows who is a passionate supporter of ID.. You all know how that sort of thing goes.
About the dumbest online test you will ever want to take.
http://www.needgod.com/004.shtml
What is cool is that at the last question “Have you ever broken the first commandment?” they have a link to explain what it is.
Then there is also this report on how some in the Church of England think that floods are evidence of god’s wrath.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/01/nflood201.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox
“The floods that have devastated swathes of the country are God’s judgment on the immorality and greed of modern society, according to senior Church of England bishops.”
I mean, I think that the world’s stupidity resources are increasing. Can we use them to replace oil?
Jeebus, one can not make these things up.
I wonder what the first book was in the public Schools,if you do the research you’ll find out it was the Bible.What has happen since the ACLU and liberals have removed the Bible and prayer; massive shootings, drug addition,abortions and kids going to school in fear of there life. How do you justify removing God from our schools?
Are you saying that through millions of years without a designer that by chance we became what we are today, you probably believe machines came by chance. Speaking of machines have you examined the bacterial flagellum which is a organelle that allows bacteria to swim, and is has a propeller that is rotated by a motor. Only an idiot(the word you used) would believe this motor in our body came about by random chance.
Awesome, Bill. A virtuoso performance if ever I’ve seen one.
And if you don’t think there is drug use and abortion among the kids at private, Christian schools, you clearly did not go to high school in Southern California. The rich kids at the Catholic high schools could afford all the best drugs!
I suspect that the NEA allows them simply because it is not worth the fight that would result from trying to keep them out.
It is a little sad. Thankfully most well educated people see them for the idoits they are.
We’ve got a live one!
phat
That’s high bit-rate misinformation, there, Bill. Quick question: what does the word “bacterial” mean to you?
Follow up: how’s it going at your booth? Conventin center’s springing for WiFi, I see. That’s nice.
I think “bacterial” would fit Bill well.
And bill, about that amazing flagellum.
Check out this link, http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html, do a little reasearch ou your own, and drop this compleatly busted talking point
I too am pursuing my Masters of Teaching degree in biology secondary education. Although I live in a fairly liberal “college town”, the surrounding areas are typical rural America (southern Illinois). From what I have gathered from the faculty and in service educators, teachers are unlikely to touch the subject of creationism; then again they are somewhat unlikely to touch the subject of evolution either. I’m not sure that it’s a fair compromise, but I would think that most educators would stay far, far away from AiG’s booth. For the most part, the due process court hearings aren’t worth the hassle, but there are always a few lunatics in every crowd! By the way, one of my professors just turned me on to this blog recently; it’s friggin excellent!
“The floods that have devastated swathes of the country are God’s judgment on the immorality and greed of modern society, according to senior Church of England bishops.”
Didn’t they just call their god a liar?
Genesis 9:11
I promise every living creature that the earth and those living on it will never again be destroyed by a flood.
Tsunami much? And just wait, someone will explain how this isn’t what is meant…
Ah yes, the God in school canard.
Wonder how Bill gets around Germany of the early 20th century?
Until 1937 it was mandatory that all schoolchildren recieve daily religious instruction. After 1937, it remained in the curriculum as an elective.
Ask the Jews, slavs, heck all of Europe what good Christian instruction did for the germans.
To Bill the Troll:
If you want to be taken seriously…
1. Thou shalt use thine checker of spelling before submitting comments in a public forum, lest you be thought of as churlish and lazy.
2. Thou shalt cite thy sources when quoting “research” and provide hyperlinks to said information wherever possible. Sweeping generalities and unsupported conclusions are not evidence, except perhaps of your own mental instability.
3. Thou shalt learn to use punctuation in the manner and style in which it was intended.
This is great! Now I’ve got a mental picture of a bacteria with a little outboard motor sticking out one end and a propeller slicing up everything around it. “I’ll show you survival of the fittest! Take that you mangy, ill-equipped Staphylococcus!”
You misquoted and misrepresented Genesis. It was a promise never again to kill/isolate all flesh and destroy the whole Earth with a flood, not a promise not to kill any people at all or destroy bits of the Earth with floods. The original was apparently a lie anyway since it hadn’t happened that way the first time for there to be a “never again”. There the Earth still was and the god was allegedly speaking to a bunch of the fleshy beings.
What has happen since the ACLU and liberals have removed the Bible and prayer; massive shootings, drug addition,abortions and kids going to school in fear of there life. How do you justify removing God from our schools?
Drug addition(sic)? (Two joints in a lid? He must be from California!)
What has happen(sic)…fear of there(sic)life(sic)?
I guess the ACLU and liberals didn’t keep you from sleeping through English class.
Hasn’t Bill been around before?
I can’t remember if he’s the repetitive thick as Bush type or the drive by shooter type.
I think comment 5 is on to something.
————————-
Bill, forget spelling, forget punctuation — thou shalt know what thou art talking about.
Thou shalt know that, though mutation is random, selection is nevermore random. Thou shalt know that Europe is altogether lacking in school prayer and school massacres* alike, and hath fewer abortions and other abominations than the US of A. Thou shalt foremost know that even within the USA the red states have more, not fewer, abortions than the blue ones. It seemeth that the good people of the blue states tend to know what happeneth when a man “recognizeth” his wife.
If thou understandest not what thou preachest against, thou and thy preaching shall appear foolish to the utmost.
* OK, three school massacres have ever happened in Europe. The negative correlation still holds.
I think comment 5 is on to something.
————————-
Bill, forget spelling, forget punctuation — thou shalt know what thou art talking about.
Thou shalt know that, though mutation is random, selection is nevermore random. Thou shalt know that Europe is altogether lacking in school prayer and school massacres* alike, and hath fewer abortions and other abominations than the US of A. Thou shalt foremost know that even within the USA the red states have more, not fewer, abortions than the blue ones. It seemeth that the good people of the blue states tend to know what happeneth when a man “recognizeth” his wife.
If thou understandest not what thou preachest against, thou and thy preaching shall appear foolish to the utmost.
* OK, three school massacres have ever happened in Europe. The negative correlation still holds.
#28 – well technically in england we still have daily prayers it is just most schools ignore it.
although couldnt God just walk back into the schools?
#25 so destroying parts of the earth, any idea what percentage it is still ok for him to trash? 10% 20%.
and i dont like that “all” either, after all last time he left noah and his family alive
#29: Well, once was not enough. God is going to destroy every living thing on earth once more. So apparently the kill-percentage will be 100. See the book of Zephaniah. And of course, there’s the matter of Armageddon.
Here’s a humorous, illustrated walkthrough:
http://jaypinkerton.cracked.com/zephaniah.php.
Bill, separation of church and state is part of our constitution. It is the law of the land and has been since the constitution was ratified a few hundred years ago. The guys who wrote it in the late 1700’s thought it was one of their most important accomplishments. The last big school shooting was in the bible belt. Seung Cho was part of a fundamentalist christian family who tried to get an exorcist to drive out his demons. Zyprexa would have worked better.
You would know all the above if you had paid attention in school. BTW, you would also know how to spell. Drug addition=drug addiction there=their. Read an American history book and the US constitution and you won’t sound like an ignorant hick. Buy a dictionary or use spell checker and you can fake being a high school graduate.
For examples of highly religious societies, take a look at Afghanistan, Iraq, or Somalia. Life span in two of those countries is about 47 years. They are very religious and frequently kill each other. Your sort of place.
Here is the URL for the NEA contact page, in case anyone wants to express an opinion to them about this:
http://www.nea.org/aboutnea/contact.html
… just when I thought I didn’t have anything else to add to the Blog Against Theocracy Blogswarm… a continuation of the violation of our first amendment rights by IDiots.
Oh, Mark, sorry, you beat me to it. Good man.
This is why appeasers suck. I also blogged their ass.
From that NeedGod test:
Everyone else gets to live forever? Cool!
The only two I could answer in a proper “Christian” way were “Have you ever given to charity,” which apparently doesn’t count because I’ve broken so many others, and “Have you ever broken the first commandment,” (hey, I’ve put no gods before Jahweh, right?), and that was the wrong answer because I’M CLEARLY LYING!!!
Sweet…
There are several Bill’s around here, including me. I guess I’ll need another name.
Bill
This wretched alliance is not surprising in the least. The NEA is about political power, increased funding and preservation of the status quo. It is most assuredly NOT about improving education. Because a lot of fools in this country (a majority, according to some polls) believe this tripe, the NEA can score political points for pushing it. If a teacher gets busted teaching this nonsense in clear violation of law, do you think the NEA would provide counsel or even an amicus brief? I doubt it.
It’s hard to imagine what it must be like trying to teach science in a creo influenced area. Not only do they deny evolution but astronomy, geology, and paleontology. So what is left to teach for a science teacher? At least without ending up with a raging cultist or 3 upset because their myth isn’t in the course. I keep hearing about the shortage of science teachers for high school. Wonder why, duh.
I probably wouldn’t have said much to the AIG booth people. These are paid, professional liars and hardcore cranks. Impossible to hold a rational discussion about weird belief systems. I see similar on the streets pushing shopping carts and having animated discussions with beings that don’t seem to be visible. It’s never seemed like a good idea engaging them either.
I am currently in Philly for the NEA annual assembly… in addition to the creationist !@#$, there was a booth on “ex-gay” educators and an “educators save life” booth complete with pictures of fetuses… that’s in addition to the significant corporate presence. This exhibit hall really pissed me off because they contradict the mission of the union.
But I have to say, I walked by several times, took pictures of these booths and saw NO ONE stop there to pick up brochures or flyers… I got some neat stickers from the booth from “Americans United for the Separation of Church and State”, especially one that reads “democracy, not theocracy”…
otherwise, this is a fun place to be: 7 democratic presidential candidates and 1 republican will speak at the assembly (HRC, John Edwards and Chris Dodd were here this afternoon… I have to admit, Hillary rocked compared to the guys).
And by the way, how many pharyngulites are in Philly? Wouldn’t it be nice to have a meetup over lunch or dinner or something?
It would be great to setup an “Evolution Exposed Exposed” booth. Additionally, they could give out lots of literature on evolution – not only exposing creationist misinformation, but the evidence supporting evolution.
The sap bill must be tired of trolling at Defcon. He is not equipped to be here, or there, for that matter. Let us feast.
If he keeps it up, I give him 3 days until he is either disemvoweled or quarantined.
His inanity can be quite bothersome and distracting. He’s been at it over there for many days now (at Defcon). Talk about tenacity. I think he’s in the second grade. For real. This is not an adult. But let mr. bill demonstrate his complete utter lack of sophisticated thinking and substantive reasoning. Don’t take my word for it.
You’re up dollar bill. Penny for your thoughts?
What I’ve seen of the NEA, and I was married to a school board member, the purpose of the NEA is to promote the interests of the NEA. Like the Mafia, they can be entertaining, even useful, so long as you don’t cross them. I suspect the AiG booth just keeps them on speaking terms with another constituency.
“Tell Michael, it was just business.”
#28, 29 (trying to ignore the troll…):
I guess for a properly representative test, we should look at the occurrence of school shootings and so on in truly godless places such as, say, Sweden and Denmark.
Pretty fair, wouldn’t you say?
I glad Bill dropped in, because he illustrates a common pattern with Creationists: they’re not just ignorant about science, they’re ignorant about everything. I don’t know if it’s a result of having attended the sort of schools that emphasize prayer over knowledge, or if they were simply poor students, but you can see that education never really happened for them.
Bert and others:
We can complain about the NEA and unions in general, and I’m sure from the perspective of a school board member, which is the exact body against which the NEA protects teachers, one might get a biased view …. (right?). The comparison to “the mafia” and so on are all part of the usual anti-union rhetoric. Yawn. But the truth is that teachers in Union schools get paid more (yet still not enough) than teachers in non-union schools, are not as badly screwed on benefits as those in non union schools, etc.
I know of many instances where the union was involved in a dispute or problem between a teacher and the administration. In every single case, the union provided valuable assistance to a teacher and the administration was acting in an absurd, arbitrary, mean spirited and often illegal manner. In every case the union helped. In every case the admin (which works for the school board) was wrong.
So, try to beat THAT set of anecdotes. 100% compliance with my own point of view. Not bad!!!
Bill:
To my knowledge, the first public schools were the schools that were part of the Great Zimbabwe culture, in southeast and southern Africa. They did not use the bible.
Greg L., all great points regarding unions. Also, we tend to forget how regulated and constrained unions are with respect to financial management, advocacy, etc. And, the NEA is one thing, but a great deal of education business is local business, left to states / regions to deal with, since the educational system is so decentralized here in the US.
When I look at my college, there is NO question whatsoever that the board is in a much greater position to screw up for the rest of the community (and god knows they do) than the NEA.
Ok, so, we disposed of the “no prayers in schools = savagery” canard. We disposed of the “unions = mafia” canard… what’s next, anyone wants to make a bet as to which nonsense we get to deal with next? :-)
Greg, re #46 I’d be interested in a cite/linky for that. (I spent some months in Rhodesia … and yes that name dates the era!)
I’d have presumed China for historical precedence. Or even Greece – aren’t there student worksheet tablets in archaeological finds?
LOL @ Greg Laden #46. Great response…
@ Molly, NYC #44:
speaking of ignorance, the part I liked was this:
Wow, Bill. We’ve literally never heard of that one before, and are all, like, totally impressed.
I never cease to be amazed at the capacity of creationists to imagine that whatever long debunked argument they’ve just heard is original.
It’s all rather depressing, actually.
“What has happen since the ACLU and liberals have removed the Bible and prayer…kids going to school in fear of there life. How do you justify removing God from our schools?”
Because the time formerly devoted to God is now used for spelling classes?
This sounds like a job for… The Flying Spaghetti Monster! (Just as a ‘sponser’ of course) Can anyone get a booth?
cureholder: “Because a lot of fools in this country (a majority, according to some polls) believe this tripe, the NEA can score political points for pushing it.”
The NEA’s statement on teaching evolution makes it pretty clear it doesn’t support anti-science.
NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION
Statement in Support of the Teaching of Evolution
The National Education Association (NEA) was founded in 1857, two years before Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species. Although these two events remain unrelated, Darwinism and evolution came to play prominent roles over the next fifty years in the science curricula in our nation’s public schools.
But like so many scientific theories that challenge established orthodoxy, evolution is still being contested. The issue of evolution versus creationism, unresolved by the weight of case law, is still the subject of debate.
NEA’s position in this debate has been firm. Most recently, our 1982 Representative Assembly made clear that NEA opposes all efforts to alter the science curricula in any way that would place the teaching of scientific creationism on an equal footing with the teaching of evolution.
While the National Education Association believes that educational materials should accurately portray the influence of religion in our nation and throughout the world, we also believe that for American education to flourish, religious dogma must neither guide nor hamper the pursuit of knowledge by students and teachers in our public schools.
From http://www.natcenscied.org/resources/articles/3213_statements_from_educational_or_8_8_2003.asp#nea
Still puzzling, though, that the exhibitors aren’t required to show some evidence of supporting public education.
Really? Intriguing. Wasn’t that culture illiterate? Can you tell us more?
Really? Intriguing. Wasn’t that culture illiterate? Can you tell us more?
Greg and other oppressed workers.
I don’t think I mentioned unions. I support unions for any person drawing a paycheck, and go out of my way to buy union made products.
Our experiences have been 180 degrees out of sinc when it comes to the NEA. All I’ve ever seen, and admittedly it was in a rural area, was the local WEA chapter protect incompetents and burn-outs from an open and fair performance reviews. I have seen threatened incompetents use their power over the kids of school board member’s children to exact revenge. It could have just been small town politics, but it was brutal.
That’s enough off-topic for me. I was just pointing out that IMHO the NEA would cover its ass when it comes to what they perceive as an unsettled controversy.
Dave, I think our tentacles are being pulled…
The wikepedia’s sketch of Pre-colonial history of Zimbabwe outlines the early successful trading culture. It was prosperous and constructed the monumental Great Zimbabwe fortress(?) whose ruins are still impressive – but this was about 1000-1700CE, and the culture wasn’t remarkable for cultural innovations as such. Wiki doesn’t explicitly address literacy. Unfortunately I think that even the primary anthropological literature is now exceptionally contentious and politicized.
From the NEA statement:
This sounds rather weak to me. Evolution is contested by whackos, not real scientists, and the teaching of Creationism has clearly been seen by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. Maybe the folks who wrote this need to study a little harder.
David Marjanović: Being iliterate and having public education are not incompatible per se, though. That said, I thought public education was found first perhaps in what is now Mexico, though I could be wrong there. (I seem to remember that in Greece, India and China it was still all private.)
Yes, exactly right. Evolution is not contested by serious scientists but by cultists from the lunatic fringes. The case law is also clear, sneaking cult nonsense into science classes is illegal. I would say that the NEA has been infiltrated by the wingnuts. Not too surprising, they also took over the executive branch of the US government.
Keith, FWIW the wikipedia article on ‘compulsory education’ agrees with you:
The wiki articles on ‘public schools’ and ‘public education’ don’t discuss origins. Anybody have non-wiki sources?
Evolution IS “established orthodoxy”. Even the educators are playing pretend like it’s some scientific controversy? Ridiculous.
thwaite: Schools or schooling (tutors, formal schools) absolutely do predate the Shona/Zimbabwe tradition, but they would always have been for the elite. The Shona/Zimbabwe tradition, which goes back to ca 1600 in the southern part of the range and to a few hundred years earlier in old “Rhodesia” were public schools. Everybody attended.
I do not know if there were home schoolers.
The best and most accessable source may be the work of Tom Huffman, whose work centered in Botswana near the borders of Zim and S.A. This is mostly in fairly obscure literature but this is my field area, so for now you can just use me as a source. (I don’t have time just now to run down what you would probably need).
Scotty: re FSM … that is EXACTLY what should happen. FSM needs to have a booth at the next NEA.
David Marjanović: Someday I’ll blog on the topic. I don’t like the term illiterate. That terms comes from a model that is not workable in this sort of thing. The Zim/Shona people are at present very much involved in literature. I don’t know how far back that goes. I don’t think these early schools stressed the written word and the schools probably existed prior to the use of the written word in later centruies. So all of their literature had to be done in their heads. (I’m not joking, though it may sound like it).
Bert: The NEA is the union. This is not a metaphor or anything, it’s just what it is.
I’m sure my anecdotes can beat your anecdotes. Your wife is a school board member, my wife is a Union Negotiator. Someday we’ll have a beer and swap horror stories!
Mmmm. Beer!
Every organization has its jackasses. NEA or no, I’m in favor of what is good for public education.
AiG is all jackass through and through.
Thanks Greg. Fascinating references. My quick diversion to google and library catalogs shows that most aspects of Zimbabwe/Shona history are as obscure as I found them some decades ago, and possibly even more contested.
This does seem OT for this thread now. But it remains a fascinating set of genuine historical mysteries.
I think the suggestions that the NEA chose to have the creationists there and are using them for political power are absurd. If anything I’d imagine that it’s more a case of them being unable to deny them the use of the booth, some sort of anti discrimination thing or something.
Anyway, I have a report fresh from the convention. It seems that people are giving the creationist booth a very wide berth, passing around it in an arc, as if repelled by an idiocy force field. They know that if you pass even somewhat close to the booth the fundies try to engage you with their traditional opening moves. The problem is that these people are teachers.. they’re aware of the current scientific status of evolution, when they’re told that more and more scientists are starting to question it they realize what sort of person they’re dealing with.
I know they’re trying to squeeze ID into the educational system to work on other people’s children, but.. trying to get the teachers, who generally know better, to teach it for them, after it already has a legal precident against it, seems like a waste of time and resources.
Nomad: I would bet on the side of this being a case of a policy that simply avoids trouble, as you suggest. Just let them all show up and it will all sort out later.
Which is why it is essential that there is an NCES booth. There is one, right? And maybe there should be a science blogger booth. Even scienceblogs.com … let Seed put its money where its mouth is.
Thanks for the report from the field, that’s mostly good news. And I agree with most of what you say but let us not forget that about a third of the teachers teaching biology, at least here in Minnesota, classify themselves as biologists.
Yet this is also true: I’m aware of what has happened in a few recent interviews for teachers i bio positions, and the teachers were asked if they knew about this issue and so on. In other words, the awareness of the legal issues is becoming part of the job. That has not always been true, and it is good to see it!
Lack of interest in the AiG booth at the NEA is probably more a function of the crowd attending. Secondary school science teachers are much more likely to attend the national or regional meetings of the NSTA (National Asssociation of Science Teachers) or the NABT (biology teachers). Those meeting focus on science (or biology) and that alone. They don’t spend time on strike tactics, negotiation strategies with school boards, etc. In other words they’re not unions but professional teaching organizations and of the many, many science teachers I’ve known over the years they wouldn’t be caught dead at an NEA meeting, but wouldn’t miss an NSTA.
The NEA was originally an association of primarily elementary school teachers, but wiith the rise of educational unions and pressure from its competitor, the AFT, the NEA became a traditional militant union, concerned about power, money, and protecting its membership. Concerns over education became secondary.
In my years in text book publishing I visited countless schools, public, private and parochial. Many were great, some were mediocre and an appalling number were atrocious. It’s always difficult to sort out how the latter became atrocious, but coincident with most were highly restrictive union rules that forbade the administration from removing incompetents from the classrooms. I can’t begin to tell you how many classroom teachers I watched in action who were completely inept but who had seniority and tenure and therefore couldn’t be moved, even to a non-classroom job. I met more than one principal who was ready to bomb the union.
I’m not about the argue that the NEA is no good–they have fought for better pay and working conditions–but along the way they’ve often lost sight of the purpose of schools and the students suffer. On the other hand I’ve watched some school boards behave like buffoons with the teachers, students and tax-payers all paying a price.
I would like to point out,however, that even though the NEA may be “stuck” with this policy at least for the time being, the presence of AiG at the conference is still unacceptable in the present age. Maybe before some of the major court decisions and other events, like maybe before Kansas and Dover. But not now. This is why appeasers suck!!!! Even though AiG is getting ignored for the most part, symbols are important and their presence at the NEA is a kind of tolerance that is what we would expect from an appeasement strategy. I don’t like it…
I think the earliest schools in the U.S. (during colonial period) didn’t use the Bible anyway, they used the vastly more depressing New England Primer.
No sex, wars, kings, visions, prophecies, none of the most interesting stuff in the bible, nor any comfort or inspiration; the whole thing is just drab puritanical claptrap:
Thus end the days of woful youth,
Who won’t obey nor mind the truth;
Nor hearken to what preachers say,
But do their parents disobey.
They in their youth go down to hell,
Under eternal wrath to dwell.
Many don’t live out half their days,
For cleaving unto sinful ways.
Keanus:
Let me start out by agreeing with you: The fact that the union uncritically and unquestionably protects all teachers no matter what … while there may be some advantages to this for various reasons … is probably the number one down side of the union.
However, it simply is not true that the fact that the Union will protect a bad teacher caused the following to happen:
1) The administration hiring practice. For instance, hiring less tried and tested teachers, going for inexperienced ones that you can’t be so sure of, because it simply costs less;
2) The admin simply being incompetant in hiring practices
3) A significant lack of sufficient training and professional development, with such fund reducing annually (on average);
4) Effective drop in teacher’s salaries … i.e., benefits that were nearly free suddently costing a few thousand a year while salaries go up a couple hundred a year, and so on, which right or wrong (but understandably) promote bad attituded in teachers;
5) The job being so tough with so much extra work added with no pay, and so much extra-circ work needed for a teacher to pay his or her bills, that teachers simply burn out. Many, many of those teachers you are talking about started out pretty good and had great potential but were crushed by the system. It is not good that they are there, but having a union did not cause this.
The cause is a combination of incompetent administration policies, bad conditions, a union that overindulges the incompetant, a community that does not support education, and a national system to guantee that resources are shunted towards middle and upper class areas and away from areas with real needs.
So while the down side of the union is real, exactly as you say, it is 1) still true that the union is maintaining basic rights and benefits that you KNOW would be taken from the teachers the very second there was no union to protect them and 2) why do we see blame foisted on the union first, and often as the only scape goat, so often. I’m not speaking here of your comments specifically … you mention the union because the union was part of the conversation … but you do see this all the time. People go out of their way to attack the NEA. The NEA has become a Republican Pinnata.
The teachers union and those who support it DO need to take more responsibility for this down side that you speak of.
Mojo3:
I was thinking the same thing. I did a little poking around to see if I could find any evidence as to what the earliest schools did have. Bill could be right, after all (that does not make what he said anything other than moronic and irrelevant).
But I see no mention anywhere of bibles at all. Always primers and workbooks and such, as you say.
…sorry, Piñata. Republican Piñata.
… just as an aside. This is how I noticed, some years ago, that my relatively liberal father was making a hard right turn. First he started spouting stuff about the NEA and how it had to be illegalized. Then I discovered that he was listening to Rush, and that is where he was getting his NEA rhetoric. This from a man who was a staunch Democrat of some repute and power in the party, who grew his sideburns long during the Viet Nam war, and who spent his career fighting racism and inequity in housing. But then he retired and this thing happened and he became a Rushie.
I’m going to have to send the NEA an e-mail about that ridiculous dance around evolution they did. If enough members complain will they change it?
Greg L,
Your arguments for unions and about the collective disregard for education at so many levels of our society make me smile. :)
I do get very tired of hearing how evil the NEA is, especially from educators. Here’s a little anecdote from my mother, a card carrying NEA member:
One day a fellow teacher came to my mother with a problem. It seems there was some sort of legal dispute between the teacher and the administration (regarding discrimination I believe). This teacher asked my mom what she could do about it, so Mom said “Are you a member of the union?” The other teacher said “No, I didn’t want to pay dues since there aren’t really any benefits.” To which Mom replied, “Get a lawyer yourself then. If you were in the union they’d provide one.”
This other teacher didn’t see any point to joining the union because she got the same contract the union negotiated for its members. To her, paying dues was a waste of money, that is until she had a problem. Now, that other teacher is a union member because she realized that legal fees were much greater than union dues.
I come from a family of hard core union people. Though I realize sometimes unions protect the incompetent or become part of the problem, the benefits far outweigh the negatives for most workers. And, like the teacher who came to my mom for help, too many people don’t understand what unions do for their members until the shit hits the fan at a personal level. I was so proud the day I got my card from the NEA. The first thing I did was e-mail my mom an image of it!
I’m also from a hard-core union family. Heck, I’m from Seattle, land of the Wobblies, and I grew up confusing Joe Hill with Jesus.
Foolish old people become conservatives. Foolish young people become liberals.
Something to keep in mind as the country greys further. All those ex-hippies are going to become even ex-hippier.
PZ,
I knew there was a reason I came here.
OT are the NEA meetings only for primary and secondary school members or can those of us in higher ed attend too?
One more thing about the unions then I’m done for the night. If you look at the position a union may take, on behalf of a member, you have to realize that the role of the union is to be an advocate, not an adjudicator. The alternative to having the unions sometimes “protect incompetence” is not to eliminate the unions. It’s for the administration to aggressively pursue the cases they feel strongly about.
China had a non-religious educational system well before the CE.
“Unlike in many regions of the world, education in China began not with organised religions, but based upon the reading of classical Chinese texts, which developed during Western Zhou period. This system of education was further developed by the early Chinese state, which depended upon literate, educated officials for operation of the empire, and an imperial examination system was established in the Han Dynasty (206 BC-220) for evaluating and selecting officials. This merit-based system gave rise to schools that taught the classics and continued in use for 2,000 years, until the end the Qing Dynasty, and was abolished in 1911 in favour of Western education methods.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education
As for ancient Greece,
“For most of Greek history, education was private, except in Sparta. During the Hellenistic period, some city-states established public schools. Only wealthy families could afford a teacher. Boys learned how to read, write and quote literature. They also learned to sing and play one musical instrument and were trained as athletes for military service. They studied not for a job, but to become an effective citizen. Girls also learned to read, write and do simple arithmetic so they could manage the household. They almost never received education after childhood.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Education
I know that wikipedia is not the authoritative source, but it can be a starting point if one is really interested.
For Bernarda:
http://gregladen.com/wordpress/?p=1058
(No one else go there…)
Well, I can imagine public schools in such a society, I just have trouble a society that doesn’t read or write would bother introducing public schools.
The 1774 date for Austria is most likely correct, BTW: compulsory public education was introduced by the “Empress” Maria Theresia who reigned between 1740 and 1780, and the fact that the date given by Wikipedia is close to the end of that range makes it plausible enough that I don’t bother actually looking it up.
Well, I can imagine public schools in such a society, I just have trouble a society that doesn’t read or write would bother introducing public schools.
The 1774 date for Austria is most likely correct, BTW: compulsory public education was introduced by the “Empress” Maria Theresia who reigned between 1740 and 1780, and the fact that the date given by Wikipedia is close to the end of that range makes it plausible enough that I don’t bother actually looking it up.
I can’t imagine why you can’t imagine that. You probably have the same deeply held and very erroneous bias that most people in “literate” societies have about societies that don’t have the written word.
Not your fault. You are hampered by this culture you are part of, you can’t really do much about it. There are many things you can never understand, or ways of understanding that you can never relate to, if you are literate. Literacy does not add something. It changes things. Do not assume that all is better with the written word!
(Personally, I like the written word, but there are a lot of things one can enjoy or use that have very significant down sides.)
AiG’s presence there reminds me of an academic archaeology conference I attended a few years ago. To my surprise, I found the publishers of Forbidden Archaeology, a great big woo-fest, exhibiting their wares in the book room.