I’m a Bill Nye fan, so it was good to learn that he’s not reluctant to point out the foolishness of creationists.
The Emmy-winning scientist angered a few audience members when he criticized literal interpretation of the biblical verse Genesis 1:16, which reads: “God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.”
He pointed out that the sun, the “greater light,” is but one of countless stars and that the “lesser light” is the moon, which really is not a light at all, rather a reflector of light.
A number of audience members left the room at that point, visibly angered by what some perceived as irreverence.
“We believe in a God!” exclaimed one woman as she left the room with three young children.
Nye also was critical of what he said was governmental agencies’ lack of action, even lack of understanding, in protecting the Earth from global warming and wasted resources.
My kind of guy. I have to wonder why a fundagelical who is dedicated to a literal interpretation of an old superstition would even bother going to a science talk, though…and please don’t try to tell me that scientists and popularizers have to tread lightly on blatant idiocies.
Tread lightly and NO EMMIES FOR YOU! No guts, no glory. It’s true.
And from the article, this line is key, IMO:
Nye encouraged the audience to take interest in discovery and “change the world,” a mantra he repeated throughout.
This is a great thing to say. And say. And say.
And it’s also why the religious right is so afraid of science; those who engage in it can affect change.
They go so that they can walk out.
How many of these people just go to these events with the purpose of being offended so they can make a scene? Professional concern trolls?
1. If they’ve been raised by incompetent and dishonest people/educators, then they might not have realised they believe in idiocies peddled to them as science.
2. They might have gone especially in order to get offended. After all, some scientists deliberately go to creationist talks … and take notes … and blog about it in outraged tones … :-D
Incidentally, if anyone else round here is in the UK:
John Mackay vs Dr.Paul Marston
Genesis 1-3 is Literal History
7:45pm Friday 28th April 2006
Penketh Community High School,
Heath Road, Penketh,
Warrington, WA5 2BY
http://www.amen.org.uk/cr/update/index.htm
http://www.amen.org.uk/cr/debate/
“We believe in a God!” exclaimed one woman as she left the room with three young children.
Don’t forget to spit on the gay usher on your way out.
Great White Wonder:
Hey, I’ve BEEN to the House of Usher. And it was NOT a happy place AT ALL, nosiree.
Why do we have moonless nights? Why can we see the moon in the day? But most importantly, why are there PYGMIES & DWARFS!?
A number of audience members left the room at that point, visibly angered by what some perceived as irreverence.
I’m sorry to hear that. I wish I could have been there to offer them some comforting and maybe a hanky or something.
Is his show still on? I remember it fondly, although it came about when I was probably too old to be fully engrossed by it.
Now that I’m having a kid, though, I have a sudden interest in quality children’s programming.
Holy crap, I’m changing demographics!
So if you’re a fundament-alist you’re required to believe that the moon glows of its own accord and doesn’t just reflect light? Is the sun supposed to be the center of the universe still? I’ve lost track of which myths are still in effect…
Yeah, but walking out in the middle of the talk would defeat the whole purpose. You’re supposed to just make bigger and bigger exclamation points as you take notes.
When was Bill Nye on? I’m in college now, and I remember watching his shows in class every friday one year.
Well, that’s weird. On the Recent Comments on the front page, it says PZ has a comment between plucky punk’s and Zombie’s, but when I come here, I see plucky punk’s comment, and Zombie’s, but no sign of PZ’s.
Holding yourself for moderation now, PZ?
Heh, the world is like a tabernacle — it says so in the Bible. That means it’s flat. Next time someone tries to tell me otherwise, I’m going to run out of the room proclaiming my belief in the vengeful sky daddy.
My daughter and I watched Bill Nye for many years, starting long before she was up to understanding everything she was seeing. I figured she would at least enjoy the wackiness (she did), and pick up the idea that when you didn’t understand something, science was how you answered the question.
Bill Nye is one of my heroes, and I’m glad to hear that he’s cool in real life as well as on TV.
But, but…which one? How ever will we know who we’ve offended?
That hasn’t apparently stopped some theatre reviewers from doing it! Plus, while I was still typing, someone else noted the publicity potential of the huff approach. Anyhow, why should they magically be more competent at going to take notes than they are at the science itself?
Meanwhile, somewhat more along the “why are there still monkeys” line than the “PYGMIES & DWARFS” one: if some creationists leave early in a huff, how come others listen to the end? ;-)
“We believe in a God!”
But, but…which one?
Why, the only true one, of course.
“I have to wonder why a fundagelical who is dedicated to a literal interpretation of an old superstition would even bother going to a science talk.” Because they’re so damned insecure in their beliefs, PZ.
It’s a smoke of another fire, all this needing science to “prove” religion, obviously a losing prospect. There’s a real defensiveness in a woman like that, a suppressed fear of her possible doubt in the very beliefs she claims to have. That and the utter humorlessness of these characters makes me think that Americans are going through a phase that has more to do with their inner, unacknowledged atheist than their faith in the old-time religion.
Is the sun supposed to be the center of the universe still?
Heretic!! Whaddaya mean, sun?? That sound Copernican to me!
A very long time ago, when I was in the Air Force, I confronted a fellow Airman about that Greater and Lesser Light nonsense. She just didn’t want to hear it. The other hyperChristians in my squadron learned not to speak to me at all after a while.
The silence was deafening.
I loved it.
Amazingly stupid though this likely sounds, I have a nearly-two-year-old daughter and I’d be interested in watching this for her if I knew when it was on and on what channel (yeah, I suppose I could look it up…)
We call it “moonlight” today. Seems we’re just as stupid today. According to PZ we should be calling it something like “sunlight from the moon”.
I love Bill Nye. My son loves Bill Nye (and claims that his science teacher is really Bill Nye in diguise). Unfortunately, only a few episodes are available – on VHS! There is a petition online somewhere, asking for all episodes to be made available on DVD. I hope that works – I’ll buy the whole set on the day of the release.
Anyone remember British science show “Don’t ask me” with Magnus Pike, Miriam Stoppard and David Bellamy? That was also a great show. My parents let me stay up late to watch it years ago.
Bill Nye the Science Guy went off the air in ’98, but I guess is still in reruns. His website, http://www.billnye.com, opens with a nice Flash animation of hominid development. So I guess we know where Bill stands on evolution …
As for the audience reaction, he spoke in Waco, Texas. Need I say more?
When I am out about in places where people commonly bring children, such as zoos, I am constantly astounded to hear parents make up answers when one of their children asks them about something they can’t answer. One day last summer, in just a few minutes, I watched more than one family learn that walruses are actually sea lions. The helpful signs provided at great expense by the zoo’s staff are apparently a waste of time and money.
I am lucky my parents were honest enough to admit it to me when they did not have an immediate answer for one of my interminable questions. Many of today’s children are apparently not so lucky. I think I just realized how Jim Pinkoski was raised.
I have to admit my father told us many tales about pre-historic “black and brown crawling bears” around the campfire, but my bothers and sisters knew he was making it up — he is a lawyer after all and he couldn’t help it.
I’m not sure what everyone else’s excuse is. I’m still proud my daddy taught me to embrace my inner fish (although that was not really his intention).
Seems we’re just as stupid today. According to PZ we should be calling it something like “sunlight from the moon”.
No, according to PZ, when someone does call it something like “sunlight reflected by the moon”, we shouldn’t become horribly offended, behave rudely toward a public speaker, or teach our children that belief in God implies rejecting even the most basic facts of science.
Glad I could clear that up for you.
We call it “moonlight” today. Seems we’re just as stupid today. According to PZ we should be calling it something like “sunlight from the moon”.
Not so stupid really. We call it moonlight because from our perspective, it is light from the moon. We also understand (most do anyway) that it is reflected light. “Sunlight from the moon” is moonlight whether it originates from the moon or not.
What it is not, of course, is a separate light source which is clearly what the bible passage suggests. This is another one of those intresting examples which points to human authorship. A human being writing at the time would most likely not be aware of this, but one would think that God that created these phenomenon and who supposedly was at least pretty influential in writing this text, would know better.
I am not really directing these comments at you Lurker. I assume you know this. Just wanted to make the point.
Amazon has several of the shows on VHS, as well as this Bill Nye t-shirt which I own (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AKZYP6/qid=1144380690/sr=8-27/ref=sr_1_27/104-6239231-5366303?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=1036592)
As far as why fundies would go to the talk: Bill Nye was on PBS, on a show directed at kids. They probably assumed it was ‘safe’.
I once saw a Christian t-shirt that seemed to understand his point about Genesis though. The front said “Be the Moon.”
The back read: “Reflect the Son.”
Har. Actually one of the more clever ones. And the world would be a better place if more Christians actually went by WWJD?
For a while there was a wonderful little series on PBS called The Eyes of Nye, that was basically Bill Nye for the high-school aged crowd, but I can’t find it on any more.
Their website still exists (http://www.eyesofnye.org/), and it claims that one of my local stations carries it, but I can’t find it in the local station listings.
PZ, you probably should have noted that the venue for the talk was Waco, TX. Texas is solidly in the Bible Belt, but Waco is over the top even by those standards. And Waco is the location of the Baptists’ own Baylor University, home to… William Dembski!
Someone said:
The comedian Steven Wright used to ask “How come, sometimes you see the Moon out in the daytime, but you never see the Sun at night?”
Is Dembski still at Baylor? I didn’t think he was…
There is a petition online somewhere, asking for all episodes to be made available on DVD. I hope that works – I’ll buy the whole set on the day of the release.
It’s already been done: http://tinyurl.com/s7pvh
Well, the online petition was asking for a release of AFFORDABLE sets. Those made for schools cost thousands!
Poor kids.
Not only is their mental growth being stunted in the long term, but in the short term, they were taken away from Bill Nye. I know I woulda had a shit fit.
I also discovered Bill Nye when I was in my teens, so I already knew most of the science, but still found him cool. I even vaguely remember a rather well-done bit on evolution he did with the giraffe’s neck as an example (he might have worked Lamarckism in there even).
It is scary, downright SCARY that this sort of thing happens today (the walking out because “We believe in God” thing). I am only a kid really; 19 years old and worried witless. What sort of world will I inherit… what sort of world will my children inherit?! Will I be surrounded by fundamentalists? (And I don’t mean just the religious sort: fundamentalism of any sort is dangerous.) The human mind is too beautiful for this, and has too much potential. Literature is beautiful, the Bible is poetic and its symbolism poignant… but we are intelligent beings! How can someone possibly be offended by the statement that the sun is one of many stars, and that the moon reflects its light? I am scared, and I feel helpless in the face of all this ignorance.
What it is not, of course, is a separate light source which is clearly what the bible passage suggests. This is another one of those intresting examples which points to human authorship. A human being writing at the time would most likely not be aware of this…
Oh, come on, the Persians writing that about 500 BCE certainly would have been aware that the moon reflected the sun’s light. You are reading a translation of a text outside of its cultural context, and you can expect to not “get” lots of subtle clues that the writer assumed the reader to know. How about a lesser ruler deriving his authority from a greater ruler? That was the reality of the Persian Empire of that time, which was ruled by the King of Kings.
It is unreasonable for anyone living today to expect to understand the original meaning of the text of the Bible, which points out the absurdity of an “omniscient God” using text to reveal His will for humans (especially when misunderstanding said text is supposed to send you to Hell).
My son knows the moon reflects sunlight, and he’s 7. How much do you want to bet that woman homeschools those three kids she was toting with her?
The sun’s a thief, and with his great attraction
Robs the vast sea; the moon’s an arrant thief,
And her pale fire she snatches from the sun;
The sea’s a thief, whose liquid surge resolves
The moon into salt tears. . . .
William Shakespeare, Timon of Athens (4, 3, 432–36.)
You can still write great poetry if you abandon the Earth-and-human-centered Universe.
I believe in Bill Nye and PZ!
Seriously though, I think someone who makes science fun and interesting for kids—and reaches a large audience—is one of the most important people there is (I’m also a fan of Doubting Dave). Unfortunately, I grew up on reruns of Mr. Wizard, so I’ve only seen a few Science Guy episodes.
FYI — Nye got married last month, so he was just off his honeymoon when he made his sun and moon blasphemies.
Does anyone happen to remember the name of the comedy troupe that Nye used to be a member of? They had a show on Comedy Central a looooong time ago (I think it was still the Comedy Channel or HA! at the time), and Nye played a variety of characters. The superhero “Speed Walker” springs to mind, but I can never remember the name of the show when I discuss Nye’s career path with people.
Oh, come on, the Persians writing that about 500 BCE certainly would have been aware that the moon reflected the sun’s light.
Really. That is somewhat surprising to me. I thought human interpretions of astronomy revolved pretty much around a geocentric model until at least Ptolemy in the second century. I would have also thought in that context that the relationship between the sun and the moon would not have been so clear to BC astronomers.
But you make a good point and I will take your word for it until I can look at that period a bit more closely myself. I will research it a bit when I get a chance.
A number of audience members left the room at that point, visibly angered by what some perceived as irreverence.
“We believe in a God!” exclaimed one woman as she left the room with three young children.
Wow. Such martyrdom. Sticking it to Bill Nye The Science Guy will surely be their ticket to Heaven.
I always liked “Beakman’s World”
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/4567/
Are you thinking of “Almost Live”, ranson? It was a Seattle-area show, but I think they did take it national at one point.
It is not necessary to assume that the woman who walked out came for the purpose of walking out. (I know that that was not explicitly stated in that fashion in these comments, but it’s implied in several comments. [Or I just have my head up my ass again.])
Many people do not take the trouble to learn what a lecture, TV show, movie is about before they attend. I watched a father who brought his three young sons to see, “Team America: World Police” who had the same problem. He didn’t know he would be offended. He removed himself, and his sons, after the first five minutes.
I am far more likely to attribute behavior like that to ignorance and incompetance over a deliberate attempt to express dissapproval. After all, I’m certain that much of the audience, even in Waco, thought that she was nuts.
That being said, I’m still at a loss to understand how someone could become so fixated on an idea to not only refuse to question it, but to refuse to entertain thoughts which only approach the core belief at a wild tangent.
Although, in this case it’s probably not the idea that the moon reflects light that bothered her. It’s the implied insult to the bible by pointing out that genenis 1:16 could not be possibly correct.
Is this just a reliance on authority to the point of insanity? If Unca’ Pat Robertson said that moonlight is reflected light from the sun tomorrow, would she change her mind? Maybe a new translation of the bible, with as many corrections as possible….
…Genesis 1:16 And God made the stars; he placed one star nearby to rule the day, and called this the sun. And he made the moon as a reflector of the sun’s light to rule night. And he used to moon to create tides as well….
Maybe I should leave this stuff to the experts. Anyone know where we could find one?
Gabriel?
Gabriel?
Bueller?
Happy Friday,
-Flex
Welcome to the “Culture Wars” kiddo…..praise Darwin and pass the ammunition…..
Bill Nye the Science Guy went off the air in ’98, but I guess is still in reruns.
Looks like he has a new show, but in limited distribution.
http://www.eyesofnye.org/
Uh-oh, Dark Matter, now Dembski is going to report you to the FBI.
Here’s hoping those kids eventually comprehend the fallacy of equating “God” and “bible”, if not reject the nonsense entirely.
Don’t know if there are rules governing posting links to Torrent sites but there are 13 episodes of The Eyes Of Nye here…
http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3355201
I propose the Waco Conjecture: .
I saw Bill Nye give a talk in person a few years ago at my alma mater. I was quite surprised to hear him make a bold anti-pro-life statement near the end of the session, talking about how we define human life and that, with what we know today about gestation, stem cells and the like, that the definitions of life our culture has been living with for centuries need to be amended because they don’t make sense anymore.
I had already been a huge fan of his, but the fact that he was willing to say, in the middle of his science popularizing talk, that rationality dictates that embryos shouldn’t have human rights, just made my opinion of him skyrocket.
If I may give hope to science geeks everywhere:
I think Bill Nye is hot.
“We believe in a God!” exclaimed one woman as she left the room with three young children.
And…?
It’s superfluous to say this on this board, but criminy, what’s her problem? Are we to believe then that the Sun isn’t a star? That rabbits chew the cud? That the Earth is flat? That rain happens when God opens a window in the heavens, rather than as condensation in the clouds overhead?
And if we’re to take the Bible as literal fact, which creation story should we believe? Chapter 2, where man is created first, then plants, then animals, then woman? Or Chapter 1, which says God created plants, then animals, then man and woman simultaneously?
I would like to express my agreement with Mnemosyne. *Nodnods*
Waco, TX huh?
I’ve always considered Waco to be more of the butt crack of the bible belt…and I’ve been there far too many times.
Cheers.
brent: The Persians might not have been aware of it, but the Greeks figured it out about that time. (I’m away from my Presocratics volume at the moment, but I recall it being mentioned.) Note that it is independent of the geocentrism etc. issue
Several people have commented on early knowledge of astronomy. For what it is worth, Aristotle used the shape of curved shadow observed during a lunar eclipse to infer that the earth is spherical. This arguement relies upon a good many assumptions about the solar system and assumes that they would be shared by the intended audience. One would therefore conclude that by the 4th century BCE such ideas were already old hat among the educated. Most likely Keith could give us more details.
But…oh, never mind.
It is interesting to see that the reporter characterized Nye as “criticizing” the Genesis rendition. Most of us don’t criticize it, we understand it.
Knowing that reporters get it wrong about 60% of the time, I would like to know what it was that he said.
Bill Nye married by my church pastor. I love it! http://www.pbase.com/image/55837599
I think I saw the newlywed couple at church the other week. Maybe not.
Bill Nye and Rick Warren??? Worlds colliding… fabric of the universe rent… I think I need to go lie down.