Duh. Because even if there is no evidence for this, the FreeThoughtSkepchickBlog (??) must be responsible for GirlWritesWhat getting DMCA-ed. Also, for starving kids in Africa. Oh yeah, skepticism, yeah.
Duh. Because even if there is no evidence for this, the FreeThoughtSkepchickBlog (??) must be responsible for GirlWritesWhat getting DMCA-ed. Also, for starving kids in Africa. Oh yeah, skepticism, yeah.
Just something silly.
So 3 years ago I made a video on feminism which received a lot of support from most of my viewers. I filmed it virtually “in the heat of the moment”, after reading Warren Farrel’s “The Myth of Male Power”, also some online articles and blog posts expressing similar views while providing bogus statistics which I didn’t even bother to verify. Shame on me for that.
In the above embedded video I mentioned how those views hit close to home because (at the time) I felt they reflected my personal experience. I want to elaborate on that a little bit, because I think my attitude in that video was absolutely counter-productive.
I’ve been working in a variety of fields ever since I was 16 years old. At first I did some waitressing and bartending, then I worked for a little bit in retail, then in shipping, banks and insurance. In all that time I personally never FELT discriminated by my employers, who for the most part treated me and paid me equally to my male co-workers who were hired on the same position.
In a previous post I talked about the sexual harassment I experienced while working as a waitress. If you haven’t read that post yet, please do so for the sake of context. I have never seen or heard of male waiters/bartenders being subjected to the same type of treatment from their customers. In the interest of fairness, I must also mention that I and the other female waitresses/bartenders also made bigger tips. Again, this reflects only my personal experience, which I know is not much evidence of anything, but might be interesting to some of my readers.
My first “real job in a real office” was as a secretary for a small shipbroking agency. The only other employees besides my boss were 2 agents (both males) and an accountant (female). I worked there for some 3 years and my job description entailed doing all the paperwork for when one of our vessels entered or left the port, which included the Bill of Lading , Commercial Invoice, Certificate of Origin + the lists with the ship’s complete crew (name, position, etc), the merchandise, personal possessions on board and so on.
After 2 years or so when one of our agents quit his job, I asked my boss if I could be promoted as an agent, since I was familiar with all the procedures for when a vessel enters/leaves the port. On many occasions I had accompanied the agents when they were performing the arrival/departure procedures, so I pretty much knew all there was to know. I didn’t get the job. Instead, my boss hired a new agent who had no experience and had to go through one month of training in order to familiarize himself with all the things I already knew by heart. My boss never said I wasn’t qualified enough for the position, in fact he specifically said he would personally “love” to promote me. But he simply couldn’t, because – being a girl – I would lack authority and I would not be taken seriously by the other agents, ship owners and charterers – who were almost exclusively men.
At that point and for many years after, I didn’t see this as discrimination. I just saw it as “the way things are”. Sure, it may be unfair, but there’s nothing I can do about it so I may as well go ahead and settle for a “female job”, such as a secretary.
On the other hand, the secretary position at all companies I ever worked for, was specifically asking for women. No man could apply for the job, even if they were qualified for it and they wanted the post.
Many years later, when I started working in insurance, I was at first hired as a secretary as well. After almost a year I was promoted as an insurance agent, then later on promoted to be a leasing agent, then later I became a leasing manager. I was always paid the same monthly salary as my male co-workers who had the same positions.
However, most of them made bigger commissions than I did. Whenever a “big deal” was in talks (for instance the insurance of a big property, like a villa or a yacht or a chain of stores, etc), my company would send a male to handle the transaction. Every single time. And I never even saw this as a problem. Again, I saw it as “the way things are”, and I rationalized that this happened because most property owners were men and they would rather do business with another man. And no, there were no “written rules” about it, but everybody thought the same and everybody accepted this *reality*.
To be completely honest, I never stepped in and asked to be assigned on a deal like that. Neither did any other of the female agents, even if they were just as qualified as the men. Maybe if we did, our boss would have considered it. I will never know. He was (still is I presume) a very open minded guy who believed in giving his employees opportunities to prove themselves.
All this says something about the society I live in. Whether it’s the men who prefer to deal with other men rather than with women, or whether it’s the women who don’t feel confident enough to take on bigger tasks, we must accept that there IS still a problem, that our culture still promotes the idea that men are generally more capable and/or more qualified.
Just like the same culture is still promoting the idea that being a nurse, or a day carer, or a babysitter and so on is not a “man’s job” and women are preferred almost exclusively for these positions.
In my removed video I also talked about how in a family with children, the men are expected to be the primary money-makers, while the women are expected to be the child carers. I asked my audience how many women would be willing to have a stay-at-home husband while they are making all the money, how many would be willing to pay all the bills and also all their husband’s expenses (from his clothes and aftershave, to his get-togethers with his friends) – while still respecting him. I assumed the answer would be “not many”. And from what I’ve been witnessing (in my country anyway) for over 30 years, I would still say “not many”.
But this doesn’t mean that we should throw our hands in the air and say “this is just the way things are”. These gender-role models we are still holding on to are oppressive to EVERYBODY. And once we are able to see this truth and recognize it, we almost have a “civic duty” to make the rest of the world recognize it as well. Because awareness is the first and probably most important step towards change.
In your opinion, rape jokes are:
1. Never funny;
2. Sometimes funny;
3. Always funny.
Later edit: I made this poll because I’ve seen a lot of feminists say that “rape is never funny” (just google it). As a feminist myself, I find this to be very odd and I wanted to see how the FTB community feels about it. I don’t know how anyone can make a general statement about any given subject NEVER being funny. Obviously, rape itself can never be funny (I feel weird for even having to make this disclaimer), but I think that a lot of good comedy originates from horrible tragedies. I guess what I should have asked was if you consider ALL types of rape jokes offensive.
For instance this one:
I am currently in Minneapolis attending SkepchickCON/CONvergence. This is a panel I was part of.
The other panelists :
If this is your first time visiting my blog, please go read my previous post before you start on this one. Otherwise not much of it will make sense. Also, locusts will eat your brain while you sleep.
Now, assuming you’ve all read it, I want to start off by clarifying a few things regarding the incident I described last time. I will do that by responding to a couple of your comments.
It seems clear that the woman’s approach was unwelcome and sexually explicit. If you asked her to stop, or to leave, and she continued regardless of your expressed wishes, then it would be harassment.(…) Did AJ make it clear the advances were unwelcome?
To be completely honest, I don’t recall if AJ made it clear VERBALLY that the young woman’s proposals were unwelcome. I don’t think I verbally expressed that either. The situation was very awkward overall. I do remember that we both used the kind of body language which in normal circumstances would have been obvious: ignoring her, turning away from her while she was talking, not responding in any way. It’s possible that the woman was so drunk that she didn’t notice all this.
Btw, from the way I phrased myself last time, it may have appeared like AJ bailed on me by leaving the table. She didn’t. Her plan was to go say “Hi!” to someone at another table and then come back, hoping that the woman would take the hint and leave her alone. AJ didn’t anticipate that she would start bothering me after that. The entire thing happened really fast – probably in the span of a few minutes.
Timid Atheist says:
1. Was this girl or her boyfriend a part of TAM? Would that have been something obvious that you could tell?
I can’t know for sure, but my guess would be that they weren’t there for the conference. Neither of them had a badge and she never mentioned the conference (common ground comes in handy when you’re hitting on someone, so I think she would have mentioned if they were there for TAM).
Also, a few of you were wondering why do I have to ask YOU whether an incident which involved myself and my friend was sexual harassment or not.
You need to understand my attitude and initial reaction in the context of some significant cultural differences between Eastern Europe (where I was born, grew up and lived all my life) and what we call “The West”. So let me tell you about my experience with sexual harassment.
When I was 18 years old I got hired as bartender’s help. The club in question was pretty much known as a “singles” type of place, where people came to dance, drink and hook-up. Apparently, for some people this meant they can also hit on ME all night long. It was a given. If I were to guesstimate, I’d say that at least 40% of all the guys who bought a drink at the bar felt entitled to grossly “flirt” with me and the other girl who was also a bartender help.
Besides her and myself, the rest of the staff was all-men : four waiters, a DJ, a bartender and a bouncer. That’s because the owner of the bar was a cheap-ass, in reality we probably needed at least twice as many employees. This meant that everybody was over-worked and didn’t have time for anything else besides their own job. Which in turn, meant that I couldn’t bother the waiters every time someone was being a jerk to me, because the waiters hardly had time to take bathroom breaks. The bouncer was also overwhelmed in handling the people who would try to leave without paying, or would start a fight and so on. The bartender was the busiest of all of us and the DJ was just a kid.
The harassment I experienced in that place was not limited to unwelcome verbal advances … some men would grab my hand when I served them their drink, in an attempt to keep me there talking to them. Sometimes they would send me to fetch them more ice or napkins when they didn’t need them, just so they’d have an excuse to make slimy attempts at (what they probably considered to be) flirting. They didn’t care that I was working and I didn’t want their attention, they didn’t care how uncomfortable and frustrated they made me feel.
The worst was when I was sent to clear off a table. Being behind the bar at least gave me some protection, but having to go into the crowd and find my way through all the drunks was a nightmare. Every time. In fact, each night (morning really) when the club would close, me and the other bartender help would share stories about all the assholes who bothered us during the night.
Later when I started working as a waitress (at another place which was not so much a club, but a pub), things were not very different. Here it was a bit quieter, but all the employees were women and we had no bouncer, so again we had to deal on our own with the customers who crossed the line.
During all this time (about 2 years of waitressing or bar-tending), only twice I asked someone to help me out when I was harassed. And on both occasions I asked for help only when I literally feared that “this person might try to hurt me”.
When I first started looking for more “serious jobs” (to me that meant working a 9 to 5 job in an office) I learned fast that employers sometimes feel within their right to hit on you during the job interview. Sometimes they are perfectly professional during the interview, but not so much once you’re hired. Once I had to quit my job at a very respectable shipping agency (the second biggest in my city) because one of my superiors kept pressuring me to go out with him. Yes, I told other people about it. No, no one did anything. Because I was replaceable and he was not.
There are many more stories I can share, but I think you get the picture. In all this time, I had to not only remain silent when someone harassed me, but to also smile while it happened. Because my job depended on me being nice and polite to people. Because “the customer is always right”. Because “the employer is always right”. Because “my superior is always right”.
In the spirit of fairness, I have to mention that I also worked in places where I was never harassed and I was treated as a valued employee. But from my personal experience with harassment, you may understand why right now I have a thicker skin – and maybe sometimes I am even unable to recognize *mild* sexual harassment when it happens.
To give my personal criteria, I would identify as “sexual harassment” any type of sexual advances which don’t stop when you make it clear you want them to stop.
Also, I find flirting to be inappropriate when there is any type of power imbalance (either obvious or implicit) which favors the person making the advances. Like when someone is being hit on by their employer, or by a co-worker who is also their superior, or by a teacher, etc.
Another example more in the context of the TAM meeting, is when someone is trying to collect money for one cause or another, and they’re being hit on by the people they’re supposed to collect money from.
To quote Rebecca here : “Guys? Don’t do that!”. No matter how sexually attracted you are to someone, refrain yourself from making a move if you hold power over them. The kind of power that would make them obliged to be nice to you. The kind of power that would make them fear the consequences of *not* being nice to you. Oh btw ….being physically stronger is also a power imbalance when the other person has no means to escape if they wish to. (e.g. a closed space, like, say, an elevator?)
In the example I gave on my first post, my *personal criteria* of sexual harassment was not met (not to the point of reporting it anyway) not only because the woman did not have any power over me (there would be no consequences to me rejecting her proposals), but also because she was about half my size. I simply did not regard her as threatening. But what if instead of her there would have been a very buff, very drunk dude acting in the exact same way? Probably neither I nor AJ would have felt as safe.
I’ve also come to understand that even if I personally didn’t perceive that situation as threatening, someone else might .
I really don’t want to see sexual harassment policies become so strict that they begin to interfere with normal, healthy interactions and flirting. But you know what ? I don’t think ANYONE who chimed in on this subject wants that. This is not a case of “fun OR safety”. We can easily have both!
If a while ago someone asked me if I think it’s necessary for the TAM organizers to implement sexual harassment policies, I might have said “no” – and if I did, I would have been dead wrong. Just because I always felt safe at TAM, it doesn’t mean that everybody else did, and it also doesn’t mean that I always will. These policies are not meant to take the fun out of the event, but to ensure that if someone needs help, help is available.
I want to end this topic by showing you another case, this time it’s a fictional one. The clip below is from one of my favorite romantic movies : “A Room With A View ” (1986) starring Helena Bonham Carter as “Lucy” and Julian Sands as “George”:
CASE NO. 2
To give a little context for this, there has been very minimal interaction between Lucy and George before this point. I want to follow the clip with an excerpt from Roger Ebert’s review of the film :
Lucy meets George and his father in their pensione. A few days later, while standing in the middle of a waving field of grass, the sun bathing the landscape in a yellow joy, she is kissed by George, most unexpectedly. He does not ask her permission. He does not begin with small talk. He takes her and kisses her, and, for him, something “great and important” has happened between them.
Lucy is not so sure. She catches her breath, and Miss Bartlett appears on top of a hill and summons her back to tea.
To this day, this kiss appears listed among the most romantic scenes in a movie. And I have to say I always loved the scene too.
But what we need to fully understand is that this scene is romantic BECAUSE we have an insight into how Lucy is feeling. We KNOW what she really wants. We KNOW what she thinks. We feel this kiss is romantic and implicitly consensual BECAUSE in a movie, the characters and their intentions and desires are revealed to us in ways we’d never have access to in real life.
In real life, you will NEVER have this insight into the other person’s mind. You DON’T KNOW how they really feel and think. In my opinion, this is the most important thing to keep in mind when you feel the urge to do something that (to you) may seem “fun” , or “romantic”, or “sexy”: the other person may feel the exact opposite of what you’re assuming.
Hello everyone. As a disclaimer, you are likely to be subjected to some pretty bad writing. If you feel the need to lament about recurring typos, poorly phrased sentences, crappy grammar and overall lack of talent, please send your complaints to the FTB admins. They brought me here, thus are responsible for any eventual traumas caused by reading my posts.
Now that we cleared that up …
You may have noticed that the subject of sexual harassment at skeptic conferences is still burning hot among bloggers here, and I for one am a bit conflicted. Conflicted as to what exactly should be considered sexual harassment. On paper, the short definition of harassment is this :
harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.
Also on paper, the generally accepted definition for sexual harassment (by courts and employers) is as stated below :
Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when
- submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual’s employment,
- submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individuals, or
- such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual’s work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment. (29 C.F.R. § 1604.11 )
For the context of this discussion I think it’s necessary to replace “working environment” with “social environment”, but other than that things should be fairly clear. Only as it often happens with any kind of human interactions, sexual harassment seems to be an issue far more complex than the words in its definition might predict.
For this reason I will present to you a series of cases, and ask your thoughts as to weather or not these incidents belong in the “sexual harassment” category. The case I will put forth in this post is my own.
CASE NO. 1
About a week ago a friend of mine from US called me on the phone to ask me (what I thought at the time to be) a very peculiar question: “Would I like to report that couple who harassed me at TAM last year?”. This baffled me. “What couple?” “To report what?” “To who?” “Why?” “What’s going on?”.
You see, lately I’ve been a really bad “Internet person”. Due to some family issues which needed all my focus, I’ve neglected pretty much everything Internet-related, so I was completely unaware of this discussion.
To keep it really short, my friend explained that DJ Grothe said in a comment on Facebook that no incidents of harassment were reported at last year’s TAM that he is aware of. And this generated a series of reactions, one of them being that now there are women coming forward and reporting that they have been, indeed, harassed while attending TAM. Ofcourse, there is a lot (LOT!) more to this which I don’t have time to get into, so for a detailed timeline of everything that happened you can click HERE .
But back to that call. When my friend mentioned the “couple who harassed me at TAM last year”, I initially had no idea what he was talking about. But when he started reminding me about the incident, I began to realize that we may have different perceptions of what classifies as sexual harassment. First, let me tell you what actually happened.
Those of you who’ve attended TAM before may know that after the “conference part of the day” is officially over (as in, all the speakers are done for the day), there’s almost always an un-official hang-out at this bar inside the hotel, where skeptics gather together for drinks and interaction – sometimes until very late in the night or even early in the morning.
On one of these late nights at this specific bar, I was having a drink with the very awesome AJ Johnson, when a young woman approached AJ and started making sexually charged “compliments” . She and her boyfriend were apparently looking for a threesome. She was the one doing all the talking, the boyfriend was sitting in a corner looking too drunk to talk, or too high, or both, or maybe even having some mental disability. He just looked completely out of it. The young woman was noticeably intoxicated too.
AJ had to literally get up and leave in order to get away from her. Fortunetly for AJ, the young woman didn’t follow her. Unfortunately for me, I became the replacement focus of her attention. She was very sexually explicit in her language, very persistent and not very coherent. I was very uncomfortable. After enduring a few minutes of drunken babbles about how awesome a threesome would be, I got up and left too. (I forgot to say there was only AJ and myself sitting at that table when she approached us).
I mentioned this incident to a few of my friends that night, but it never even crossed my mind to report it to the TAM staff as sexual harassment. Nobody else suggested this either at that time.
And when my friend asked me recently if I would like to report it now, in the light of the newly surfaced controversy, I again said that I don’t feel I should report it.
So here are my questions to you:
You see, the title of this post is in no way ironic. I am very interested to know and understand what are your thoughts here, and I would very much appreciate some detailed answers instead of just answering “yes” or “no”.
Here’s my main 2 reasons for *not* reporting it to the TAM staff:
I’m looking forward to reading your comments.