The Black Skeptics have put out a call to sign a petition for Abortion on Demand and Without Apology. I signed it, so should you.
There will also be an abortion rights caravan that will be stopping in North Dakota on 1 August — I may have to make a short hop up the road to Fargo to participate in that.
I signed, though the whole “END PORNOGRAPHY & PATRIARCHY” conflation at the end is… debatable.
Yeah, I’m not 100% on board with their agenda myself…but if I waited for unanimity on all things, I’d always be marching in a parade of one.
The North Dakota event should be entertaining considering all the legislation they are trying to pass. I will be interested to see a report on that.
I would have liked to sign it, because I certainly support abortion on demand. But they’ve tied it into stopping pornography, and I think that’s bullshit. There is no proven link between pornography and rape. In fact, pornography may mitigate rape. Plus there are many different forms of pornography, and much of the effort to stop it amounts to slut shaming. So no, much as I’d like to sign a petition for abortion on demand, when they tie it into stopping pornography they don’t get my vote. Sorry.
It’s hard to take them seriously when they’ve somehow tied this to pornography…
The organization hosting that petition is associated with “END[ing] PORNOGRAPHY”, but the petition itself says nothing about it. Pornography is never even mentioned in the petition. Did you read beyond the organization’s headline?
I also have problems with that particular stance–and it often goes hand-in-hand with policies and efforts that end up harming already marginalized people–but the abortion petition itself is something I fully support.
If I lived in the US, and so had a ZIP code rather than a post code, I would sign this petition, even though I too am not entirely onboard with the association with the End Pornography group, that I think runs the very great risk of targeting marginalisied women and those women who don’t perform their sexuality in a fashion that the organisers approve of – toxic and dangerous ‘slut shaming’, as Darwinharmless accurately describes it, far from undermining the patriarchy, actually functions to reinforce it.
That said, the fight for on demand access to abortion is of overwhelming importance, and if that means that I must sometimes associate myself with people with whom I do not entirely agree in order to pursue that end more effectively, then so be it.
Signed.
I did read the petition. But there’s a huge sign saying END PORNOGRAPHY above it. Am I really supposed to think that this is going to be an effective organization?
Signing the petition doesn’t cost anything, so why not?
The petition itself has nothing to do with any action for or against pornography. I’ve signed.
There are problems that feminism (more specifically, some feminists) has had in the past with allying with religious conservatives in order to further an anti-porn agenda. This wasn’t good, and I wouldn’t want to make the same mistake.
I’m not going to pretend that I’m pro-porn, though. There is a lot about it that is problematic, but I try to keep my problem with the genre separate from the working people who, as has been pointed out, are already marginalized, and I’m keenly aware of how that marginalization contributes to unhealthy slut-shaming attitudes.
….
(Hi, Caine!)
Signed.
And yeah, I’ll stop being anti-porn the day that porn that doesn’t explicitly dehumanize one or more of the participants becomes more popular than clown porn.
Hi, Mythbri!
Signed.
The “without apology” part is excellent, but “abortion on demand” lacks limits, and none were stated. The tone is too shrill. It’s posturing much like what we see from the other extreme. And, of course, the anti-pornography silliness is a big turn-off.
I’ll pass.
@jennynumbers
“Abortion on demand” is intended to lack the strict and unnecessary limits that are already imposed upon female-bodied persons seeking abortion.
I am a person with bodily autonomy 100% of the time. Not just for 20 weeks. Not just for two trimesters. Not even 99.95% of the time.
100% of the time.
jenny6833a
What “limits” are needed?
Yeah, that’s the whole point of abortion on demand – women should be able to go get an abortion without dealing with any legal hurdles whatsoever, regardless of what stage of her pregnancy she’s at.
Come on. Using the word “shrill” unironically on Pharyngula of all places? I call shenanigans on jenny6833a.
@vaiyt
Jennynumbers has been here before. But your call of shenanigans is apt.
If signing up to support women’s right to bodily autonomy also meant signing away my right to look at nudie pictures, then I think I’d be able to live without nudie pictures.
I hope that any good person would see that access to abortion and access to pornography don’t require equal advocacy or status.
mythbri
Yes, this exactly. Thanks for putting it into words better than I could.
I have a problem with the pornography thing too. What’s the difference between healthy erotica and pornography? There is a difference that seems clear cut to me but the religious and some feminists insist that any depiction of sexuality is wrong.
The difference is misogyny. Does the woman in the film look like she’s having a good time? Erotica!
Is she being coerced, humiliated or otherwise abused. That’s pornography and I would ban that if it were possible to do so.
Heaven forfend! Who will think of the thousands of unregulated abortions that will undoubtably occur in the last five minutes before inducing labor due to this lack of limits! Who will stop the thousands of women who will get pregnant every month or so just so that they can have some of those sweet, sweet abortions! Think of the abuses!
Tone! Will no-one think of the tone! Will no-one address the shrillness! Of atheists! Of women! Of women atheists especially!
*jazzhands* BOTH SIDES! *jazzhands*
I’m glad that you’ve found that comfortable middle ground on the issue of whether women have a right to their own body. Great work. Your accomplishments in the fields of the Golden Mean, Fencesitting, and Neutrality will be noted by political scientists and historians for years to come.
Or revenge porn!
My problems with porn are why I prefer my porn written–no possible exploitation and my imagination works just fine, thank you.
But I have to admit that the anti-porn bit bothers me quite a bit. Still, signed it.
@kevinalexander #22
The problem is that it’s not that clear cut, and there is a not-insignificant amount of people whose sexual preferences include consensual kink, which could include (consensual) coercion, (consensual) humiliation, or (consensual) “abuse.” Sexuality and erotica are not one-size-fits-all. In addition to that, your comment pre-supposes heterosexual porn, when gay porn is also a thing, and does not fit into your neat separation of “erotica” from “pornography.”
Again, I’m not pro-porn because of the problematic aspects (which is separate from the people involved), but what happens between consenting adults is their business. It’s just not as cut and dried just because what might be attractive and stimulating to one person is not attractive and stimulating to someone else.
In a debate about the ability to view porn versus free access to abortion, what weight should we place on masturbatory material versus the lives, health, and welfare of people?
Is it really a healthy instinct to worry about your access to pornography when someone is simply asking you to sign a petition to save lives?
Presumably, if this sort of thing is a deal-breaker for you, and you require absolute political purity, you never vote?
Not so. It’s limited by demand.
… Wait a second. I guess you meant no one else gets to make demands. It’s unlimited in the sense that it doesn’t depend on what a bunch of ignorant theocrats have to say. Fuck you.
Worst music review ever.
It’s “posturing,” because you personally don’t like it so it’s just not going to happen? They don’t really mean it because you wouldn’t really mean it?
What’s “the other extreme” anyway? It’d be enough if you just bullshitted us. You don’t have to make us read your mind too.
I’m glad you have your priorities straight, like not reading what the petition says, for example. Surely, that should come way ahead of women’s rights.
You would have to possess a very seriously broken sense of ethics indeed to place any desire to look at pictues of naked people you may have above, or on a par with, women’s access to abortion services. This much is, I would hope, clear to anyone with a functioning sense of social morality.
The troublesome part is not about a notional ‘right’ to access sexual imagery, so much as the risk that anti-pornography campaigns can very easily cause ‘splash damage’ against marginalised groups, and marginalised women in particular. In the past we have seen the baffling spectacle of some feminist groups actually being prepared to ally themselves with conservative christian organisations as part of an anti-pornography drive, and the language has begun to move ever more either toward a paternalistic concept that women need to be ‘protected’ from all sexuality, including their own, or alternatively has lurched into attempting to pass pious pseudo-moral judgement against the ‘fallen’ women who find themsleves working in that industry. The issue is in no way as pressing as the direct threats to bodily autonomy presented by the so called ‘pro-life’ movements, but it is still another expression of patriarchy that exploits legitimate concerns about the harmful character of the vast majority of pornography to turn the debate toward either ‘slut-shaming’ or removing agency from women sex workers, rather than going after the toxic structures of the pron industry itself.
Ultimately, however, this is all something of a diversion from what the thread is really about. The issue of clear and immediate import here is working to secure on demand abortion as a part of maintaining the fundamental bodily autonomy of women. The whole issue of the End Pornography group’s stance on sexually explicit material really is a side show that distracts from the main point. Supporting the petition in favour of on demand abortion should completely eclipse any concerns one may have about the group’s stance on pornography.
I would sign in a heartbeat, if I actually lived in the US*.
———————————————————————————————————————-
* Does anyone know if there is any way for non-USians to show their support for this petition?
“JennyNumbers-Still Bullshit After All These Years!(TM)”
Folks, just find a US zip (postal) code and use that. Super. Easy.
Hey everyone, I just moved to Chicago :)
Josh, Official SpokesGay @ 31;
Could you just assume that you are talking to a complete fool with all the google-foo of a week old kitteh (not a big feat of imagination when discussing your’s truly, I know), and explain how one would go about doing that?
Pretty please?
Try here: http://www.geonames.org/postal-codes/postal-codes-us.html.
Just click on the state of your choice and there will be a list of several zip codes for that state.
Signed (and the site didn’t seem to mind that I don’t have a US Zip Code. In any case this is not only a national issue).
Very much so. Written for choice, and/or occasionally drawn, not photographed. And featuring only men; as I happen to be a straight woman, I enjoy certain examples of porn and erotica featuring only men.
Though I do of course realise that what is in question here is not the entirety of all porn in the world; it’s overwhelmingly exploitative het porn predicated on the humiliation and objectification of women for a male audience. In which case I’m with mythbri and Mellow Monkey et al. on this.
Also, since the petition itself was not actually tied to the statement on porn, I have no problem going 100% with the crucial issue – abortion on demand and no “compromise” on women’s bodily autonomy.
Purely coincidentally I’ve had two contraceptive failures in my life, and was and still am perfectly happy with having had two abortions. I’m just lucky enough to live in a part of the world where this was not turned into a major problem by RWAs. My kids also know themselves to be loved and wanted, no accidents involved, and they know that if either they or a partner were ever in the situation of needing an abortion they’d have my support.
There are people who prioritise porn over increasing abortion access? Seriously? Gross, folks.
Do you know what sounds like bullshit, darwinharmless? Your statement that ‘In fact, porn may mitigate rape.’
High-five, Nepenthe.
anteprepro @ 34;
Thanks for that. I have just popped up in New York and signed. Say hello to the latest addition to the citizenry of the great US of A…
:-P
@emilybites
I just thank the wide ranging sexual desires of humanity, since I would also have to refine my position if clown porn suddenly became much less popular.
I’ve seen this a lot of places, but never with any evidence that wouldn’t also support the notion that, say, open homosexuality may cause climate change.
Make up any five digit zip code. A handy tool to tell you where that is:
https://tools.usps.com/go/ZipLookupAction!input.action?mode=2&refresh=true
Coercion, certainly. Abuse…um, depends a bit on what you mean. The center one…um… no.
Bodily autonomy is an all-or-nothing proposition. I didn’t know there were any women in porn, though; that’s not sexy!
Shrug. I’ve never seen evidence that porn causes rape, so it’s not like it’s a double standard.
It actually seems like the same kind of argument against banning rap music or video games. “How do we prevent real violence? Get rid of fake violence! Even if it isn’t violent!”
Do people not realize the anti-porn movement wouldn’t only get rid of the ability to look at porn, but also the ability to work in the porn industry (legally)? The movement could well harm women (and men) who are already in the industry, or about to go into the industry, if it isn’t already.
A very dear friend of mine is a porn actress (and director!). She was nominated for two AVN awards in 2001 and is quite successful. And happy, and in control of her career. Yes, she’s lucky, but I would rather make it easier for other women to be as in control of their careers as she is, not harder.
It’s interesting that the only thing people have so far considered in regards to the anti-porn industry (whether it’s certain type of feminists, or right-wingers, that are anti-porn) is that it will only affect the ability to “look at nudie pictures”. It’s obvious the only thing people here are considering is the affect the anti-porn movement has on men and their ability to watch it and not much larger picture and, to me, far more obvious affects it has.
Also, I don’t think that the choice to do what you wish with your body, including making money by doing porn or prostitution, is all that far removed from other choices, like abortion or birth control access. Ant-choice is anti-choice and it can often become muddled.
For instance, how much harder do you think it would be for a woman in the porn industry to get an abortion if her career wasn’t legal?
I don’t know that I like this idea that one is more important than the other. They are important for different reasons. We can discuss both issues separately, although there are obvious (to me) links that could also be discussed.
This complete erasure of the WOMEN IN PORN is making me very uncomfortable.
If signing up to support women’s right to bodily autonomy also meant signing away my right to look at nudie pictures, then I think I’d be able to live without nudie pictures. <— 2011, not 2001, although that's not at all an important point and I am only correcting it because OCD.
I also can’t copy/pasta the right thing? LOL. HI Y’ALL, I am having a great day.
Personally, I just want to live in a world where if I say something bad about “Teen Slammed in Both Holes” or “I Can’t Believe You Sucked a Negro” (this particular popular series has 9 titles out) I’m told I’m being oppressive and should shut up and criticize objectifying Dolce and Gabbana ads instead.
I also note your conflation of anti-porn with pro-criminalization or whatever. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want to ban porn. I also don’t want to ban people being rude on facebook or cigarettes. I just want people to feel bad when they masturbate to videos women being fucked by a crowd and called racial and misogynistic slurs, and perhaps stop doing that.
I never said you should shut up and criticize objectifying Dolce and Gabbana ads instead. Could you specify where, exactly, I implied that you should shut up and stop criticizing porn? Because I didn’t. You are more than welcome to criticize porn and I’m not trying to tell you to shut up.
Also, I would imagine you should be able to criticize objectifying Dolce and Gabbana ads along with most mainstream porn, especially considering some of the discussion is related anyway. Isn’t it? I think it is.
I didn’t “conflate” the two — there are aspects of that within the anti-porn movement, although I’d agree that it’s generally not the focus.
Hmm. What if that woman made the decision to be fucked by a crowd and enjoys being humiliated in a sexual manner? Not so much my thing, but I know a lot of people really, really into the kink community and some of them like humiliation. Everything being consensual…
Yes, I understand the consumption of such porn can be problematic, but again we’re ignoring the woman/women having consensual sex.
Also want to clarify it’s not really my focus, either. Being blindly anti-porn, though, does affect women in porn and not positively.
Nepenthe
Do you understand that there are people who would get off on being the woman in that scenario? People right here on FtB? Should those of us into kink feel bad because we like group sex and degrading language? Or are we just poor broken things who should be pitied, while our partners willing to indulge us are the bad people who should feel bad?
There are a lot of problems with the porn industry. There are a lot of problems with most industries, because the vast majority of the entire world is built on exploitation in one form or another. Porn is particularly bad because of the open racism, physical risks and further marginalization of vulnerable populations who work in it. (Very few porn actresses end up being directors who are nominated for awards, so they aren’t a fair representation of the industry.) But there is nothing intrinsic about being kinky or pointing a camera at your kink that’s bad and should make people feel ashamed.
That bit right up there that you wrote? That’s my problem with the anti-porn stance. Because it so rarely stops at “this is an exploitative industry” (something I agree with). It all too often spills over into “…and everybody who likes a type of sex I disapprove of is a bad person.”
Yeah, that’s because, unlike many people believe these days, porn is not identical to sex. Porn is filming sex and selling the images, which is not merely consensual sex. If someone wants to have someone kick them in the stomach while shouting racial slurs at them, whatever. Both participants are explicitly consenting and fully aware of that consent. You film it and sell it? The people viewing are not part of that consent agreement, which changes it from kinkysexyfuntimeswithracialslurs to another racist video in a racist culture.
No, it’s generally not the focus, but it’s what porn advocates always jump to. Which is weird. It’s the same thing that every other media jumps to when criticized (“It’s okay that this book is homophobic: free speech!” “It’s okay that this video game is sexist: free speech.”) and that feminists are generally able to recognize as bullshit. But if it’s a video designed to get people off, boy howdy, THAT is protected speech.
Where were you when all those poor tobacco farmers went out of business?
Yeah, I understand that. Do I need to show my kink credentials or what? Because I really didn’t want to get into that.
@marilove,
I understand that people derive employment as well as pleasure from pornography, and I believe that ethical production and consumption are perfectly possible (but not generally the reality). However, if I was forced to make the unlikely choice between granting free access to abortion or granting free access to porn, it would be a very, very easy decision to make to ensure access to abortion.
I don’t believe that regulation or control of supply of pornography is realistically possible in the age of the internet. On the other hand, since they cannot be downloaded and because the political will exists to do it, abortion service can easily be curtailed, causing much greater risks to life and welfare.
Hey, my thanks, and thanks on behalf of Stop Patriarchy, and women everywhere to PZ Myers for posting this! And we’d love for you to join up with us in Fargo! Was reading through the comments, and since I’m involved with Stop Patriarchy, wanted to let people know a few things, and join in some of the political discussion that’s happening here.
This is an historic moment in the abortion wars, and when you read the statement, you get a taste of the level of emergency that women are to a large degree already facing, even before Roe v. Wade has been officially overturned. Eight abortion doctors and staff assassinated, those that are still alive and practising are hounded and terrorized by death threats. 97% of rural counties are without an abortion provider, clinics and the women that try to get to the clinics under constant attack by these anti’s, medical students entering the field are not trained in this basic and common procedure unless they decide to seek out that training, a religious takeover through mergers of secular hospitals that impose ‘ethical directives’ (notably a denial of abortion and birth control) on their patients, and there are 5 states that are down to one clinic for the entire state. Not to mention the legal restrictions and and in some places the state mandated, but medically unnecessary, vaginal penetration by ultrasound probe.
North Dakota is poised to become the first open slave state for women with the passing of the fetal heartbeat law, which outlaws abortion after 6 weeks: before most women know they are pregnant. And there is another law set to go into effect in ND that would require the abortion dr.s to have hospital admitting privileges at the local hospital- which they will not be able to get, since they travel from out of state to provide abortions to women in ND. Mississippi may actually beat North Dakota in being the first openly slave state for women, because the hospital admittance law that passed there is currently under appeal, and the clinic stays open only because of an injunction from the judge.
All of this is why Stop Patriarchy is determined to confront and rally others that agree with us to confront: the woman-haters in the heartland, and to rally support from across the country for those that have been courageously providing women with this right. Abortion is an essential right for women to be able to determine the course of their lives, and on a societal level makes the difference between women being reduced to breeders of children, or whether they are treated as full human beings- capable of full equality in every realm. Did the slave system of the south get defeated by those that abhorred and wanted to abolish slavery stepping back, and trying to win with compromise? NO. Did the original freedom riders want to see an end to Jim Crow segregation so deeply that they were willing to put everything on the line for that aim. YES. That is why we are launching these Abortion Rights Freedom Rides, this summer. If we wait any longer, how many women will suffer and even die needlessly? That’s what this battle is about at it’s core, and that’s why we say: Abortion On Demand and Without Apology. Forced Motherhood is Female Enslavement. Fetuses Are NOT Babies, Abortion is NOT Murder, and Women Are NOT Incubators!
In line with the aim to fully liberate women, those working on this initiative (the full name of which is End Pornography and Patriarchy: The Enslavement and Degradation of Women) see pornography as incredibly harmful and utterly dehumanizing, to all women, on a societal level. Pornography is different than sex, different than erotica, and please- if you use the free speech argument, recognize that you are literally turning women’s bodies and lives into the “speech” of pornographers. What of the rights of women to be free of pornography, and the ideas that saturate society with the sexualized degradation of women? What of the rights of girls and women that are prostituted, and those that are sold, tricked, kidnapped, or trafficked into literal slavery? What does it say about society when the most popular type of porn is GANG RAPE porn? And what does it say when the social phenomena of rape and gang rape includes posting of pictures and videos online, to the degree that people that encounter a woman being raped may be more likely to whip out their cell phones to capture the moment on film instead of intervening to STOP the rape?
If you care about the lives of half of humanity, than you should want to get into and analyse from an objective viewpoint what porn means in terms of the majority of women’s lives, and what choices society has already set up for women to “choose” from. See the documentary The Price of Pleasure, read what Gail Dines has written, read the book Big Porn Inc. And to clarify, our mission is NOT to lobby for anti-porn laws…Read the mission statement in the last few paragraphs in our Call to Action on our website: stoppatriarchy.org
And if you really are pro-porn, or if you haven’t decided what you think, don’t let that stop you from signing the Abortion On Demand Statement. The statement itself is not directly “tied” to being anti-pornography. We will not make the mistake of siding with the woman-hating christian fascists on anti-pornography grounds, and you should not make the mistake of not signing this because you think we are wrong about pornography.
Those who have signed already, THANK YOU. It does make a difference for people to sign, and please forward this statement widely. If you have connections to prominent people of conscience: actors, authors, musicians, atheists, scientists, progressive religious leaders, we want them to know about and sign onto this statement. Also, what we are able to do this summer depends on how much money we are able to raise….Double the THANKS to those that donated already! We are estimating between $80,000 and $100,000 is what it will take to buy ad space in the local papers in ND and MS to print this statement, to post our slogans on billboards, to fund those that are willing to go on this freedom ride, to cover legal costs as they arise, and to get lots of materials to distribute. We want people to travel in the caravan with us, to meet up and come out to protest in Bismarck, Fargo, Wichita, and Jackson, to do sex-ed and abortion teach-ins at the fake clinics, to defend the clinics, and rally support for providers. And all along the way we want to leave behind chapters of Stop Patriarchy to continue this fight after this summer, and until the tide is turned in favor of women. We will be announcing dates and locations, keep informed through our website and blog, and contact us if you are able to help with anything I’ve mentioned!
BTW- those not in the US, you can use whatever your postal code is, and while this is a statement concerning the abortion rights struggle in the US, access to to safe abortion is a global concern. It’s estimated that 70,000 women die every year from lack of access to abortion.
For those who scoffed at my statement that pornography may (please note I said “may”, leaving it an open question) mitigate rape, the opinion was not unfounded. http://www.springer.com/about+springer/media/springer+select?SGWID=0-11001-2-1042321-0
That said, your voices have been heard and I have signed the petition.
For the record, I am niether a fan nor a consumer of pornography. I am, however, sex positive and anti-censorship. Abortion on demand but sacrificing your right to wank to the material of your choice, it’s a no brainer. There is no equivalency here. I do think it’s a shame that this organization headlines both as if there is some kind of equivalency.