We keep talking about making appropriate responses to sexism — not just those of us who are strongly pro-feminism, but even the regressive thugs on the other side will say that, although we’ll argue about what level of response is appropriate. But this is where I lose patience every goddamned time: apparently no response other than silence and submission is acceptable.
We’ve all seen how “guys, don’t do that” was turned into cause for outrage. Here’s another instance: Adria Richards was at a tech conference when, during a presentation that was about women coders no less, a couple of guys behind her started cracking suggestive jokes.
The guys were clearly in the wrong. They were being rude, distracting, and trying to assert their dudely privilege in one of the few moments granted women during a conference dominated by men. So Richards turned, snapped their picture, and tweeted it to the conference organizers, asking them to handle it.
This was a measured response. It wasn’t a blast of anger, it was a request that the conference enforce its code of conduct. It disrupted the meeting less than a couple of chattering smart-asses did. This is exactly what we should want people to do: polite confrontation through appropriate channels.
The conference organizers also did exactly what they were supposed to do: they called the two men aside and asked them to stop and behave themselves.
I assume the two men also reacted appropriately. There are no tales of angry shouting or rejection of the admonishment. I charitably presume that they were chagrined and a little embarrassed, nothing more.
This should have been the end of it: a happy story of a minor breach of manners handled by grown-ups who moved on to do their jobs professionally. Lessons learned all around; don’t disparage or harass minorities (women were only 20% of the attendees), trust the organizers to manage hiccups smoothly, deal with problems through official channels. Except you know more happened or it wouldn’t be news.
A whole bunch of otherwise uninvolved people completely lost their shit. This is ridiculous.
But instead, the internet decided to throw one epic fucking tantrum. First, one of the men pictured in Richards’s photographs was fired from his job (his company was one of the sponsors of PyCon). Richards did not call for him to be fired, nor did she celebrate the decision, according to this post. Nonetheless, Richards’s company SendGrid—NOT the company that fired the dude—was subject to a DDoS attack courtesy of 4chan (their express purpose was to “ruin her life”). She’s also been subjected to the usual avalanche of violent harassment and rape threats that descends upon any woman who dares to criticize male-dominated tech culture (see: Sarkeesian, Anita; also everything else ever). Sidenote to tech dudes: GET A FUCKING GRIP.
SendGrid subsequently fired Richards.
Firing one of the men over a brief incident of inappropriate behavior: totally inappropriate and excessive. That would only be reasonable if there were far more severe breaches of courtesy.
4chan getting involved: disgraceful. Launching a denial of service attack against Richards’ employer: what the fuck is wrong with these people?
Worse: Richards’ employer, SendGrid, caving in to extortion and firing her. I hope she’s considering legal action. That was incredibly craven.
Worser, appallingly disgusting: the violent reaction by some assholes.
Richards has been called practically every name under the sun. Some Twitter commenters demanded she kill herself. A 4chan user allegedly released Richards’s personal information. But few reactions were more disturbing than this one, sent to her Wednesday evening: a photo (blurred but still NSFW) of a bloody, beheaded woman, bound and stripped, with the caption “when Im done.” Next to it was a home address and phone number, ostensibly Richards’s.
And of course the usual slymepitters are crowing over all this on twitter, taunting via the #ftbullies and #wiscfi hashtags, as they always do. This is the kind of behavior they love to applaud.
This is the heart of the problem. We can build all the protocols for reasonable responses we want; women like Adria Richards can use them; responsible people can implement appropriate reactions.
And then, beneath it all, lies the festering sewer of rape culture that rises in rage at any damned uppity woman who dares to speak out against our very own homegrown Taliban.
And one last bit of insult: the conference organizers retroactively revised their code of conduct to exclude public shaming.
Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect.
Cowards. Just remember, ladies, decorum must be maintained, and the proper young woman will be meek and silent in the face of offense. The men can’t build a strong community if women keep speaking out publicly.
I wonder how many women will now think twice before complaining about asshole behavior at their job or at a meeting? If they’re inhibited, congratulations, scumbags: you got what you wanted. On the other hand, maybe we’ll finally reach a critical mass of outrage, and the next time some dudebro starts with the sexist shit at a conference, a dozen people, men and women alike, will rise up and tell him to grow up or get out.
I know I’m even less inclined to let casual smears slide now. I hope you feel the same way.
Adria Richards did NOT do everything right…
You do not have a right to
Beatrice:
Hey! Meoooow and all that.
My god! It’s full of bars….
Amphiox:
Hahahahahahahahaha.
And your OPINION supercedes whose? Who the fuck are you that I should listen to you? There are indications of an MRA apologist, ergo, I should treat everything you say with extreme skepticism, expecting you to back up every claim with a link showing it is correct and pertainent.
Weak Ass Puerile Homophobia @1496
I’m glad to see you agree with Adria Richards and most of us that this shit is indeed everywhere. All over the place reminding women that their role is beneath men. That they should shut up and deal otherwise they’re being “oversensitive” or “humorless” or “just don’t have enough of a spine”.
You think women, recognizing that this shit is everywhere might be inclined to start taking steps to ensure this shit isn’t everywhere all the time, that the next generation won’t have to pick their battles and learn to smile and ignore because some douchey sexists don’t want to have to think for once in their lives?
Yeah, this shit is everywhere. It should be nowhere. The only way from A to B is through brave actions like Adria Richards, little spoons that stop it one act of painfully obvious douchebaggery at a time.
And that completely scares you to no end doesn’t it? The knowledge that the party bus has to stop and the oppressor class is going to have to grow up and be adults and accept that minorities exist and the same old tired lazy hack bullshit just isn’t going to keep cutting it.
I guess, like all incompetents, when the going gets tough, you join a secret society of bigoted anonymous assholes doing acts of terrorism to hide from their unmitigated fear of minorities existing in the same space as them.
How “brave”, how “manly” that makes you.
sorry Beatrice, I know you were getting off on my comments, but I fell asleep attempting to read Cerberus’ latest novel. Over my head in what? Are you asking me out sweetcheeks?
And the tag was made yet again and it’s a re-run who can’t even be bothered to finish out his thought (unless it was attempted snark, in which case apologies). Eh, tag again abuser lobby, tag again.
Benn Dover,
What, Cerberus is too much for you? Yeah, that’s an example right there of what I meant with “way over your head”. Reading more than two sentences at the time is hard!
I’m sorry, Comrade Cerberus, you’ll have to make do with this troll from Central Casting. ‘Fraid they’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
Cerebus,
Perhaps your comments are so long winded because nobody want to talk to you in real life. Or here, since none of us can get thru your posts without snoozing. Very understandable why you’re so bitter, pobre sito. Chin up luv.
ahh, now I understand your *spits* comment from before. That’s a good girl.
Weak Ass Puerile Homophobia @1506
Ooh, are we negging?
Let me try.
You look like you’re going to spend your life having one epiphany after another, always thinking you’ve finally figured out what’s holding you back, and how you can finally be productive and creative and turn your life around.
But nothing will ever change. That cycle of mediocrity isn’t due to some obstacle. It’s who you are.
The thing standing in the way of your dreams
Is that the person having them is you.
Rey:
I’m afraid they’re way past the bottom of the barrel. Past the bottom of the septic tank, even.
You know, I can mock fuckwits, but at some point it really gets nauseating. I think I’ve reached that point.
“Go to work at a construction site”
Trust me cupcake, we don’t put up with that kind of shit. Our policies are probably more restrictive than those in place at the conference. I go onsite occasionally because I need to discuss matters with clients, deliver contracts, replace lost lock-outs, do safety audits, and so on.
Some other companies don’t have clearly stated harassment policies and I’ve been subject to some odious crap from guys not working for my company onsite. My guys? They call this crap out. They respect me, not because I’m in a position of authority but BECAUSE THEY’RE DECENT GUYS WHO DON’T IGNORE MY BASIC HUMANITY.
We’ve had issues with some new hires making sexual jokes to other men who have complained about having to hear that kind of shit. We’ve had to let more than a few of these idiots go after it’s clear they just won’t respond to gentle conversations on the matter, disciplinary action or suspension.
That you think this stuff is just “How it is” is very telling. It tells me you’re a sexist asshat who is going to be very angry as society advances to the point where you’re going to have to answer for your bullshit.
Rage, rage, rage. That’s all you know how to do. You won’t learn, you refuse to change and you’re going to have a very bad time of it.
(Get)Bent, I don’t know about getting us wet / hard (I for one have never considered giggling at someone’s puny intellect particularly arousing – it’s just amusing) but YOU certainly sound like you’ve experienced considerable shrinkage. The thing is – when you elect to jump into a shark tank you’re in for far more than the effects of icy water, so good luck with that swim.
The latest troll thinks the blog is all about him. How devastating it will be for him if he realizes that he is not worthy of the adoration he showers upon himself.
Rapey Nym, we know when we see someone trying so very hard to score points, and missing every. single. time., that they are shallow, empty-headed muppets who think the view up their own rectum is grand. Don’t continue to waste our time with such awful attempts at gotchas and insults. Go away until you come up with something, anything, better. Or at least steal something semi-intelligent from someone else.
Adria Richards did NOT do everything right…
You do not have a right to control the words that come out of other people’s mouths because your sensitive ears are offended. It’s ironic that on “free thought blogs”, the rants condemning free thought are so pervasive. Adria Richards responded to a minimal, non-invasion of her privacy (sounds touching her eardrum) with a true invasion of someone else’s privacy (taking their picture without their consent). This is why feminism is so destructive and why the backlash is in full force and picking up steam. Feminism is all about limiting free speech and controlling other people with a nosy, busybody, control-freak disposition. You do not have a right to not be offended! Sometimes people will say things that you don’t agree with… who are you to control their words?
It’s disgusting to hear an ignorant feminist get on her soapbox and lecture about “rape culture”, as if words are equivalent to rape. You kidding me!? That’s disrespectful to TRUE victims of rape, both woman and man alike… and how much do you feminists care about false accusations of rape? The way you bandy those about on this forum and others… seems like you embrace it as a strategy. Ever hear of the boy who cried wolf? You wonder why rape doesn’t get taken as seriously as you want it to? It’s YOUR fault feminists! YOU’RE the reason! You toss about the word “rape” with such nonsensical impunity that it loses its meaning.
I don’t think either one of them should have gotten fired, but while I sympathize with the guy as he was victimized by the behavior/PC/thought police… I have no sympathy for Adria Richards, who brought it on herself by deigning to impose her will on others.
Feminism… STOP the victimhood mentality. STOP the demands for special privilege and treatment. STOP attacking free speech. STOP seeking to impose your will on the freedom of others. Until then, we’ll continue to roll our eyes in the knowledge that feminism is about “women’s rights” like the KKK is about “white rights”.
Blowjob jokes… a sure sign of superior intellect.
Jonathan Taveras:
I see you got that early submit problem under control, have a cookie. Now fuck off and do some reading, Cupcake. It seems to have evaded your notice that there are 4 pages of comments in this thread, over 1,500 of them. I know, it’s a lot, but what you do is find the “Previous 1 2 3 4” that’s above the “Leave a Reply”, and click on “1”. Then you shut the fuck up and read, because you limp-brained arguments have already been addressed, time and time again.
She deserves rape and death threats?
You are scum.
Jonathan Taveras, you should have just left the incomplete message on its own.
Well, at least Jonathan cut the shit and proved he’s a sack of crap right in his first post.
Jesus Jumped Up Christ, there’s no shortage of idiotic sexist fuckwads, is there?
later trolls, gotta run. remember, cry all you want for your fallen chick, but she was wrong, and now she’s gone. glad to be of service today, stay true. peace.
Oh yeah, godsdamned uppity bitch, daring to speak up to men, amirite? Gotta put those bitches in their place!
Go have a dance on a woodchipper, douchecake.
At least Benny realized he was being trolled back. Do let the door hit you on the way out.
I am not even going to pretend to be civil to this MRA fuckface.
Was it the feminists fault when rape was even more under reported? Or was that when it was ideal for the likes of you.
Are you fucking kidding me, fuckface? Rape culture is saying that rape is no big deal. Rape culture is the laughter that the passed out girl is so going to get it. Rape culture is the active attempt to dismiss rape because it gets in the way of the “more important things”.
Jonathan Taveras, you are fucking disgusting and a sick joke. Go find A Voice For Men. You can whine all about false rape accusations there. You will find it quite empowering for you.
Now, just go away.
That’s not what “deign” means.
Yeah, rape threats have nothing to do with rape.
Gosh, I had no idea that feminists were present through all of human history.
When did “free speech” come to mean “never having to grow up”?
POT, KETTLE, BLACK, LIAR & BULLSHITTER.
You sympathize for the guy who got fired even though he was on the chopping block already, but you don’t sympathize for the woman who got fired after an internet bully campaign directed at her and her company?
And in your mess, there’s this:
You either fail at reading comprehension, or you are a liar.
Fuck you. Seriously. Rape culture isn’t that. Rape Culture is made up of the parts of our culture in which a rapist is given protection, often at the expense of the victim. The sexist nature of our culture is part of that, but only a part. This interaction here is more about the sexism part of our culture, chiefly in the IT industry. It helps allow for the rape culture to exist, but it is also distinct from rape culture.
Fuck you and your stupid non sequitur. The false accusations of rape are low, and while a problem, this problem is eclipsed by the problem of victim blaming, and even how rape is treated in both the media and by the police.
If you want to talk about rape culture, take that shit to the Thunderdome. This thread is so you can make a jackass out of yourself as you attempt to be a harassment apologist.
Wow! I do believe we’ve been visited by a real life “FEMINISM IS EVIL!!eleventy-one!” walking cliche. You’ll forgive me for being slightly excited in a “Look, look, a
Jonathantapeworm!” sort of way, but it’s been a while since I last encountered a fella whose arguments are THAT simplistic. It’s like a blast from junior high.LOL…
“Now fuck off and do some reading, Cupcake… you limp-brained arguments have already been addressed, time and time again.”
“You are scum.”
“Jonathan cut the shit and proved he’s a sack of crap right in his first post.”
“Oh yeah, godsdamned uppity bitch, daring to speak up to men, amirite? Gotta put those bitches in their place! Go have a dance on a woodchipper, douchecake.”
WOW… is this what passes for intellectual conversation here? Apparently you reply with name-calling and shaming because you have no logically valid response. Bitter mockery is simply the last bastion o someone who has no argument left to make.
“Speak up to men”? I encourage her free speech, but why do you suppress the free speech of others? Let her speak up to men! But she shouldn’t try to silence them!
She got “threats”? You mean like how you people immediately threatened me here as soon as I spoke truth that you couldn’t refute? Suck it up and deal with it! Try to come up with a reply instead of silencing those that you don’t agree with. Free speech is a more important value than protecting your bruised ego.
You really don’t have to try to impress us with your idiocy. It’s clear you’re an idiot. Try not to talk about rape culture, Cupcake, because you don’t know what it is or what it means. Stick to subjects you know about, like what your colon looks like. Be on the lookout for polyps!
Actually yes: Sexual harassment. The offendee has the authority to make the decision, not you.
Surpise, anothing troll not knowing what
really means. Guess what? It doesn’t mean every thought is worthy or needs to be considered. Only those with empirical evidence, like Patriarchy exists, MRA fuckwits exist, and they have no evidence. Lots of attitude and words, but no evidence. Funny how that so isn’t free thought.
The invisible commenter was writing you rape and death threats? The bastard!
I’m all for reporting them immediately!
Beatrice:
Well, he was on the slow side and in the shallow end of the pool.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls…
“The offendee” does not have the “authority” to decide what words are allowed and which ones aren’t. The 1st amendment protects ugly speech that offends, not just speech you agree with. Suck it up and man/woman up! Try to come up with words of your own instead of silencing others.
How is expecting someone (or, in this case, two someones) to live by the rules of the professional environment they are in imposing her will on them?
Oh my. You should have told us you were incapable of reading, douchecake. Couldn’t even manage the original post, eh? Tsk.
There are pretty blue words all over in the OP, douchebiscuit. Those are called links. You hover your mouse over them, then click. Don’t worry, you’ll get the hang of it…eventually.
Fuckhead, those weren’t threats. They were insults. Which you deserve. A threat is either an explicit or implicit promise of harm. No one is going to hurt you.
You didn’t speak any truth. It was unsourced stupidity, nothing backing up your points, and all of which have been addressed, directly in this fucking thread. Further, the rape culture side-track has nothing to do with this conversation directly.
You have added nothing to the dialogue. Your points are nonsensical. To the shock of no one, you ignore what words actually mean.
Beatrice (looking for a happy thought)…
Have you seen the consistent exhortations for men and those that don’t tote the feminist victimhood line to “die” on this thread? To “go off themselves” and so forth? You’re all hypocrites. You make exactly the same threats that you condemn and lash out at others for making.
Try again.
.
Stupid fuckface is also dishonest. Stupid fuckface also thinks he was being logical.
Stupid fuckface is getting pretty much what his verbal vomit deserves.
Now, just go away.
Please contact your HR department and ask to see a copy of your workplace’s sexual harassment policy. In it, you will discover that there are limits to free speech. One of those limits, upheld again and again by the courts, is speech which creates a hostile work place — such as sexual jokes.
Holy Fuck! They just can’t leave it alone, can they?
I want to leave this article here. It’s from Salon and it’s written by Mary Elizabeth Williams.
Trigger Warnings apply, since it’s a meta discussion of Steubenville, Connecticut (not the school shooting, but the case of a 13-year-old girl sexually harassed by Football Players), and Adria Richards.
So yeah… trigger warnings:
Women aren’t even safe in the Twittersphere
I’d like to quote some relevancies from it, if y’all don’t mind:
Note this… Mary thinks Adria’s reaction to the guys was “immature and unnecessary”. And yet she is also fully aware of what the discussion is actually about, and focuses on that.
What is so fucking hard about this for the trolls to understand?
So yeah… I agree with Mary. I don’t think Richards should’ve tweeted that pic. Of course, she wouldn’t have had to if the conference had provided a cell phone number or email address people could have used for immediate contact.
But none of that MATTERS. None of that is actually important, because Adria didn’t do anything to deserve the response she got. AND THAT’S THE FUCKING POINT!!!!!!
Could someone please explain to me why this is so fucking hard for so many to get?
Also… if this article’s already been posted, please forgive me. I don’t have time to go over the last 200 posts that popped up since I last checked in, since I’m working on a presentation about chimpanzee aggression for my Primate Behavior class… oddly apropos, actually…
Idiot. The First Amendment protects people from facing government censoring. The comments she called out were against the policy of a private group, who can control what is said on their grounds, or at their event. Further, there are limits the Free Speech already. Which are well understood and documented.
Richards, the convention, and even the men involved all agreed that the comments were over the line.
No it doesn’t. And the fact you don’t know that is enough to dismiss everything else you say.
Freezed peaches for everyone!
Ogvorbis…
You said, “How is expecting someone (or, in this case, two someones) to live by the rules of the professional environment they are in imposing her will on them?”
She didn’t abide by the very rules of the professional environment that she was trying to enforce! That “professional environment” does not encourage taking pictures and making Twitter posts to shame someone for words they said!
glodson…
You said, “Fuckhead, those weren’t threats. They were insults. Which you deserve. A threat is either an explicit or implicit promise of harm. No one is going to hurt you.”
Scroll up throughout the thread and note the consistent exhortations to “die” and to hurt oneself… hypocrite.
Goodbye Enemy Janine
You said, “Now, just go away.”
See? When you can’t debate ’em, silence ’em. That’s the credo, eh?
@Johnathan Taveras
Nor do you have the right for other people not to be offended by what you say, nor can you expect them not to speak out in response. You people tend to forget that part.
Besides, this was a professional event. You sure as hell should be able to expect not to be offended at an event like that. You aren’t there to crack raunchy jokes. There’s a time and a place, dude. If you don’t get that, then I think you’re going to have a lot of trouble out in the real world.
Says the guy who’s having a fit over what someone posted on their twitter.
What are we supposed to “debate” with you? You haven’t said a goddamned thing we haven’t already ripped to shreds 87 times in this very thread. Have some originality and maybe you’d be worth it, cupcake.
No. The rules are no harassing picture taking. Like up a skirt, down a blouse, crotch shots, etc. And, if it was against the rules, why did the people in charge thank her for bringing the situation to their attention and not discipline her?
You’ve been silenced? Apparently someone forgot to tell your keyboard that.
Jonathan @1519
Oh, you managed to finish your “thought”. Congratulations, that must have taken all the effort in the world.
And it’s… a stream of MRA bullshit based on their fantasy idea of how the world works that they cling to like barnacles to avoid having to face that they are just cowardly misogynist bullies and proud members of the abusers lobby who can’t handle the fact that women are people and that sexist men are just going to have to learn to deal with that.
You were better off with your first attempt, honestly.
But thanks for once again delivering your “oh so important point” that bitches be responsible for everything and that good women should know their place and know never to call out entrenched sexism or else they will properly “deserve” a bunch of cowardly terrorists who get their rocks off abusing women unleashing their hatreds and vile ids upon them.
This will totally convince everyone that sexism is not an entrenched problem that people reflexively defend often to the point of violence, rape, and harassment.
I for one will never believe my lying eyes again about reality and will cease from this point on from ever being aware of the way the world works.
Thank you random abuser from the pissant MRA movement! Mange tak!
Weak Ass Puerile Homophobia @1510
And you suckers pay money to “learn” these “techniques”? Wow, you really are the marks everyone says you are. Say something about my shoes next!
Weak Ass Puerile Homophobia @1511
…
Really?
Reaction A: Bwahahahahahaha! Oh you’ve got to be kidding me with that weak ass shit.
Reaction B: Skeevy rape troll proves to be skeevy? UNPOSSIBLE!
Reaction C: Thanks. Thanks for that illustration to all the bad faith MRA trolls who’ve been flooding in to pretend that sexual jokes are nothing and never used to minimize women or make them feel excluded from participating in subcultures. Thank you for demonstrating that when your back is put to the wall, that the final refuge of cowards who are blanching from the way toxic masculinity fears female-heavy spaces is to throw up some “joke” that seeks to minimize and diminish women by reducing them to the sex class.
Cause this would be the thing that all of our misogynist trolls are trying to keep us from discussing.
How these “sexual jokes” work.
What the intention is on the part of the sexists who make these particular “jokes”. Why they are used to dominate spaces and feel so strongly to women like a locked door barring them out.
Because that is their intention.
Because that is the point of them, much like a racist talking about “entitlement issues” can make it sound like it’s got two g’s in it.
And they are fucking terrified of people just refusing to put up with it anymore. Either be calling it out or laughing in their faces or both.
The rape culture must die. This culture where hierarchy is maintained through the implicit threat of rape and sexual violence must cease. Today and forever.
Thank you, douchebag for bringing us back on topic. At long last.
No, douchecake. It’s the refuge of those intelligent enough to understand the reality of a situation, after being inundated with wave after wave of toxic, sexist asshole idiots, such as yourself, who, rather than read and at least try to think, dump the same limp-brained “arguments” over and over, somehow thinking they’ll change reality by repeating themselves ad nauseum.
You aren’t intelligent enough to understand all the very serious talking we’ve done about this issue and the larger, surrounding issues. You’re just here to parrot idiocies and to spill incorrect information all over and then roll around in your own shit and scream when we aren’t impressed.
Ogvorbis, glodson…
You said, “… see a copy of your workplace’s sexual harassment policy. In it, you will discover that there are limits to free speech.”
That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t excuse her violations of the very workplace rules she was trying to enforce, nor does it excuse the constant attempts to silence the backlash against her, nor does it excuse the assumptions and interpretations of the so-called sexual innuendo necessary for her accusation to hold any merit.
The so-called “limits” on free speech are all related to deference to other rights. So for example, you can call me names, but I can kick you out of my house if you’re doing so in my house. Likewise, I can scream “fire”, but the movie theater can kick me out if I do so in their theater. There are no limitations on internet trash-talking… as displayed on this thread.
You have a right funny way of displaying your being silenced, Cupcake. You’re doing it by not shutting up. Curious, that. Looks like you’re the one who can’t manage debate.
There is no debate without evidence. You have no evidence. Ergo, we are talking to a parrot, who talks only with memorized lines squawking out at random. No cogency behind them. Typical of ‘pitters.
EVERY argument you’ve attempted to advance was refuted long before you got here. Evidence to be found in past comments. (Which you predictably didn’t bother to read.) Nevertheless, there’s still a number of people here taking the time to address your special snowflake renditions of the same old same old, paragraph by paragraph. That being so, please spare us the “you can’t debate me so you’re trying to silence me” nonsense. They can and are debating you, it’s just that you don’t like how that’s turning out. It’s tragic, I know, but it isn’t this community’s problem.
Neither “die” nor “go off yourself” is a threat, for reasons that have been explained to you (by people who supposedly “can’t debate you”). A threat is promise of harm. “Die” / “Go off yourself” is not.
*applause*
It’s like, “Look at me! I’m a man! I know things! Listen!”
Then cite case law where first admendment rights (which is government supressing political speech), trumps a non-harassing work environment. That is why you are at odds with reality. You don’t understand reality. Where you and your OPINION are not wanted or listened to.
The people in charge of the conference did not think she violated the rules. They thanked her. Of course, her photography was not harassing — no crotch shots, butt shots, etc. But why let reality stand in your way.
You don’t think we should be trying to silence the backlash? The rape threats? The death threats? You think that is the right thing to do? You are sick.
Such as…?
Unevidenced OPINION of a proven liar and bullshitter, hence *floosh* dismissed as abject fuckwittery. Try reality for a change. You will find it third door on the left…
Asshole, quote me where I said anyone should die.
Further, find where we’ve looked for your address and posted it on line. Find where we’ve gotten ahold of your pictures and photoshopped those.
So far, I’ve just called you an asshole, because you are a sexist asshole. And ignorant, and stupid. I’m insulting you.
What violation? The tweet sent so that she could report the two guys, who admitted their wrong-doing? Reporting people for violating the policy is a violation of the policy?
Ooh, more OPINION from a proven liar and bullshitter. Here you have no free speech. PZ can delete your ass at any time. To claim otherwise shows you aren’t grounded in reality. What delusional fool you are.
Also…
No shit, figure that out all on your own? Congratulations. But the fuck does that have to do with anything? In fact, that kind of makes our point. Richards pointed out that the two men were violating the house rules, and it was dealt with. That was it. Death threats and rape threats aren’t protected.
She’s getting those for calling two guys out for violating the house rules. And you are defending the assholes harassing her.
Uh-oh. It would appear that Jonathan has gone off and done himself bodily harm on the suggestion of strangers on a blog on which he commented. Another important voice has been silenced.
Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man…
You said, “that bitches be responsible for everything and that good women should know their place and know never to call out entrenched sexism or else they will properly “deserve” a bunch of cowardly terrorists who get their rocks off abusing women unleashing their hatreds and vile ids upon them.”
But “entrenched sexism” is not whatever you want it to be. It’s not everything that you disagree with, nor is it subjective according to what pisses you off. It’s gotten to the point where “calling out sexism” is just a euphemism for “silencing men”. Women say all kinds of things in the workplace that may piss men off, but you don’t see them running to snap pictures and report and silence them.
You said, “What the intention is on the part of the sexists who make these particular “jokes”. Why they are used to dominate spaces and feel so strongly to women like a locked door barring them out.”
LOL… OR it’s 2 guys innocently cracking a joke between them that had nothing to do with any particular woman, LIKE IN THIS CASE!
You said, “The rape culture must die. This culture where hierarchy is maintained through the implicit threat of rape and sexual violence must cease. Today and forever.”
The feminist culture must die. This culture where hierarchy is maintained through explicit threat of rights and freedom deprivation and state violence must cease. Today and forever.
Yea, those women have all the power, enjoy a higher pay rate, and higher rates of promotion as well. It is like they run the entire show and have all the power, that’s why poor men like you have it hard.
Because you are proving to be really stupid, that was all sarcasm.
Jonathan Taveras,
don’t waste your time arguing with these pampered, spoiled see you next tuesdays.
in their empty minds they can’t be wrong ever; they’re women!
Your points are well made and accurate
@Johnathan Taveras
Was there a point in there somewhere? Your post seems to mostly boil down to “I know you are, but what am I.”
Ah, you know you are in good company when Benn Dover defends your douchery, and misgenders quite a few people as well.
Because only women will speak up for the women.
The men WEREN’T “violating house rules”. They were cracking jokes between them that WERE NOT explicitly sexual in nature, nor were they directed at Adria Richards or any other woman in a harassing fashion. The only one who harassed anyone in that situation was Richards harassing them. And whatever accusations were aimed at the guys were SOLELY based on Richards’ word, and nothing more. No one else filed a complaint against them, did they?
Let’s see what, if anything, the stupid fuckface was logical.
You do know that many conventions and job sites do have a code of conduction. And saying words that others find offensive is often part of the code. Not logical
Free Thought is a nineteenth century term for what is now called atheism. Not logical.
She was at a convention with a code of conduct. Not logical.
Non sequitor. Not logical
Non sequitor. And once more, code of conduct. Not logical.
And once again, code of conduct.
Words are not the same as rape. But words can encourage rape. And words can downplay rape. That is rape culture. Not logical.
What of all the people who claim that the young woman in Stuebenville is crying false rape. Despite all of the video tape evidence showing rape. Not logical.
While false allocations of rape should be taken seriously, it is still no where near as common as rape. Oh. Wait. You are going for equivalency. Not logical.
Was it also feminists who caused rape to not be recorded and not taken seriously? Not logical.
Never mind the fact that this person was already on notice at his former place of employment. This was just the last straw. Not logical.
Reporting a violation is now trying “to impose her will on others”. Funny definition. Not logical.
Working at ending victimization is not “victimhood mentality”. It is addressing an inequity. Not logical
And I repeat, not logical.
Even the free speech to counter the demeaning speech that you find so precious. Hypocrite. Not logical.
Funny, you seem to be trying to impose your will on the freedom of others. Not logical.
Yes, because feminists are trying to protect the traditional privileges of women. Not logical.
Fuckface, that was one pisspoor rant. Now just go the fuck away. You are not up to arguing your case. And the foundation of your case is made with shaving cream.
Neither is it what you, a proven liar and bullshitter, claim it to be. In fact your OPINION is worthless.
Wrong liar. They were overheard. And what they said was part of sexual harassment, which doesn’t require true sexist statements to be considered harassment. Again, your OPINION is irrelevant. In fact, the best thing you can to to consider everything you say about this topic is irrelevant to anybody truly understanding the situation, which is every here, and keep your lying and bullshitting yap shut.
They said their were. The con said they were.
Just because the complaint comes from one person doesn’t mean it isn’t valid. They were making sexual jokes in a public space in which a professional conference was being held. They don’t need be directed at Richards.
Again, they admitted it and apologized for it. Is that too hard for you to understand?
You know, I was going to respond to the new fuckwit (what the hell is this–a mythical Hydra? cut off one head and another grows in its place? FFS, the neverending line of sexism enabling morons is getting quite tedious.) until I noticed his (yeah, I’m going out on a limb and thinking this fuckwit is a guy) nym. Nothing sexually suggestive there. And in a thread about a woman being made to feel uncomfortable about the sexually suggestive comments made by a couple of d00dbros…
glodson…
When women in the workplace exchange disturbing commentary about certain bodily functions of theirs… the men do not tend to go running off trying to silence their speech or get them fired. The issue here is one of “minding your own business” and “letting bygones be bygones”. Feminists are, by nature, busybodies that have a compunction to control the thoughts and actions of others. THAT is the core problem.
Yep, blissful silence.
@Jonathan Taveras
The good news: There’s a cure for having a poor vocabulary: buy a dictionary. You clearly don’t know what deign means. The bad news: If you have no sympathy for someone being threatened with rape and murder, you have no capacity to relate to other human beings. And I’m afraid there’s no cure for that.
@Non-trolls
Did anyone else find it strange that in the XKDC-Tshirt thing the poster defended themselves with:
So while showing one clueless woman might be sexist, showing two isn’t? Am I missing something?
@Redhead
I simply love the *floosh*! :-)
The men WEREN’T “violating house rules”. Evidenceless assertion *floosh* dismissed as lies and bullshit.
They don’t need to be to be overheard, and therefore harassment. And they don’t need to be sexist per se. Just offensive at that time and place. Your OPINION is irrelevant due to not understanding harassment law.
Given that they acknowledged what they did, more lies and bullshit from you. This is why your OPINIONS are worthless, irrelevant, and nothing to be considered. You lie, bullshit, and ignore reality.
It was a convention, you empty-skulled muppet. It was not any of their workplace. It was a professional gathering and a certain level of decorum and professional behaviour is expected.
When there are things said in a workplace which a man finds to be of a harassing nature, they have a structure in place for reporting said behaviour, just like women. I’m sure this is news to you, douchecake, but men often do report inappropriate workplace behaviour, and if that news gets out, guess what happens? All the misogynistic, sexist, stupid assholes treat that man as though he were a woman and make the same kind of threats and do the same kind of bullying.
You. Are. An. Idiot. Figure out how to read – go back to that little lesson on how to click on the ‘1’.
The core of the problem is male privilege. We don’t get treated differently because of our bodies, because of our sex. We have the power. Look at this reaction. A woman was made uncomfortable and reported the problem. The issue was addressed, her post on the matter should have just been about how good the PyCon people did in handling it.
Instead, she’s been harassed further for sticking up for herself.
And what disturbing commentary about certain bodily fluids?
Bwahahahahaha. You couldn’t understand or find the core problem with hint book, a map, a compass and a GPS. The core problem is dudebros can no longer behave like they did in the frat house, and must mature to real adults. Who do respect women and watch what they say.
Your OPINION is still nothing to read or consider, as there is no reality behind it. Simply your delusional world where you don’t need to behave in a mature adult manner.
I love this because it’s so telling. In fact, it illustrates the entire point of why it’s so goddamn important to complain, loudly and often.
The lack of a complaint won’t simply be taken as a lack of evidence. It’ll be used as positive evidence that nothing wrong ever happened. Indeed, as we can see, if one complaint is made, the absence of any other complaints will be used to argue that the complaint was false, even in a case where the target of the complaint admitted wrongdoing.
It also demonstrates why taking a picture was needed. If she hadn’t, we would without a doubt have people in here right now arguing that she made a mistake and pointed at the wrong guy.
Tony:
You’re late to the party, Tony. Click back to page 3 for Rapey Nym’s performance. I’ll warn you, it’s stupid, shallow and not worth reading. Idiot can’t come up with anything remotely original. We are on the flounce count, though. Rapey has flounced once so far, couldn’t stick the landing.
@Jonathan Taveras
Compunction doesn’t mean what you think it means. Buy a dictionary! Really!
As for your meaning: *floosh*!
@Redhead: sorry, I can’t resist.
Glodson:
Only women bleed, haven’t you heard?
It is a nice situation they are making. No complaints must mean there’s no problem. Then you find a complaint, and it was that the woman was lying. Show the people confessed they crossed the line and apologized, she was still wrong for complaining in the first place.
It all comes down to the fact the want the women to just “toughen up” and deal with the dick jokes even if they might not be comfortable hearing them in a professional setting, in the context of the convention itself from men they aren’t comfortable with.
@ Caine,
Oh, I figure that’s going to be his answer. I just want him to say it directly. I want him to equate talking about menstruation with making dick-jokes.
You know, fuck context. Both have to do with genitals, so both must be bad!
Sorry, wrong link in 1583: second attempt.
Yes, women talking about their periods is the same as a bunch of guys talking about, say, some uppity woman needing a good fucking to settle her down.
Still not doing the logical argument at all, stupid fuckface.
glodson…
You said, “They said their were. The con said they were.”
According to HER WORD! And her word only!
“… they admitted it and apologized for it” after they were cowed with threats of unemployment! This reflects the neutering of the male population that is becoming endemic in society and the workplace.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls…
You said, “… keep your lying and bullshitting yap shut.”
LOL.. see? All you can say is, “Shut up ya dumb poopey-head!”
Goodbye Enemy Janine…
You said, “… saying words that others find offensive is often part of the code.”
Really? So if I, as a Yankee fan, find your touting of the Red Sox to be offensive, does that break the code? Your standard fails…
You said, “Free Thought is a nineteenth century term for what is now called atheism.”
And it’s a 21st century term for free thought. Your standard fails…
You said, “She was at a convention with a code of conduct.”
A “code of conduct” which she herself violated in her attempts to impose her will on others. YOur standard fails…
You said, “Non sequitor.”
This is deeply intertwined with feminism… see the rants of “rape culture” above.
You asked, “What of all the people who claim that the young woman in Stuebenville is crying false rape. Despite all of the video tape evidence showing rape.”
Are you seriously trying to equate multiple witnesses and video evidence with one sensitive woman’s offended word? Lol, your standard fails…
You asked, “Was it also feminists who caused rape to not be recorded and not taken seriously?”
Yes it is. Like the boy who cried wolf, every time feminists equate being male with being a rapist, or words with rape, or looks with rape… they debase the meaning of the word.
You said, “Working at ending victimization is not “victimhood mentality”. It is addressing an inequity.”
It is when there is no victimization. Who is the victim of quotas, divorce court, VAWA, criminal sentencing, and medical spending? Men. You just want special privilege, and cry “victim” when you don’t get it.
@Johnathan Taveras
OK, I’m confused. Are you arguing that the jokes were fine and shouldn’t be a problem, or are you arguing that they never made the jokes at all?
You fucking idiot. The two fucking guys admitted it. They said they were wrong! How fucking hard is that to understand?
So, two guys fuck up and admit it, and this is neutering? You are just too stupid. So making it so that women feel a little more comfortable, addressing the imbalance in society, that is neutering?
Goddamn, you are stupid. The rest of that post is nonsense as well. And you could at least learn how to blockquote.
What? VAWA is a problem? A law meant to protect the victims of domestic abuse is a problem? Medical Spending? Like that men don’t spend as much as women? Quotas? Again, there’s documented proof that men do better in the job market.
Further, the sentencing is a place were the men do tend to get it harder, but that’s also a function of the patriarchy at work, where we seem to hold men more accountable than the weak-women. That’s where it hurts men. Same with divorce court.
Which would be interesting topics, but you don’t give a shit about them.
We didn’t come to you, sourcakes. You came to us. Why did you come to us? Why, to indulge your compulsion to control the thoughts and actions we have and take.
It’s a good thing breathing is an involuntary physiological action, else you’d be in serious trouble.
Spoken like a true MRA. All attempts at trying to correct an injustice means that men are the victims of a lost of special rights.
My fucking black and empty heart breaks and bleed for you. Abused women who, fifty years ago, could not easily leave their husbands now have some options. A talented women gets to advance farther then a less talented man because of a change in society when, seventy years ago, she never would have had a chance.
Do I have scorn for you? Fuckin’ A, I do. It is not because you are a man. It is because you are a scumbucker of chum passing off a whine as an argument.
And you are nowhere near as logical as you try to present yourself.
I wrote this in the Ars Technica thread:
… and apparently it was a lucky guess! Do I get a prize for accidentally revealing the feminazimenhating agenda?
Delft @1590:
I lol’d. Still am!
I recently witnessed a young man indignantly getting up and leaving because 2 of his (female) classmates were discussing shaving their legs within earshot, and didn’t change the subject when he pointed out it was “disturbing”. (For the record, it happened outside the local university, they were all waiting to be let in for class.) My point being I can only imagine how having to listen to women talking about their bodily functions has affected Jonathan’s tender sensibilities.
For what it’s worth, Jonathan, if listening to such exchanges in a professional environment distracts or offends you, you should complain. If there’s one thing you can be certain about, it’s that no matter how publicly you choose to do it, the women in question and those supporting them will not be leveling rape, death, or any other threats at your door. And that happens to be the key here.
Remember, this is the stupid fuckface’s idea of a logical argument.
I hear HR personal around the world laughing at this.
Gee, what an irrelevancy from a proven liar and bullshitter. It would help if you cited case law in sexual harassement.
Gee liar and bullshitter. The conference organizer got the admission. They have no power to fire people. What a delusional fool you are.
Since you provided no link to a defintion, your standard fails, liar and bullshitter, and your OPINION *floosh* dismissed accordingly.
More non-sequiturs from a thoroughly refuted asshole. Last refuge of thae imcompetent. Your OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as there is no citation, it is out of touch with reality, and you are a proven liar and bullshitter.
@Jonathan Taveras
Well that would certainly help with the population problem.
Buy a dictionary! Seriously!
Obviously, the first 44 Presidents of the U.S were women. On average, women earn more money than men. The top executives in most companies are women. When a woman starts speaking, everyone pays attention to her over any men that may be speaking at the same time. Many inventions made by men are commonly credited to women. Ideas are only taken seriously when women propose them, and ignored when men do. Most menial and badly paid jobs are done by men. Men working full-time still do most of the house-work, and take on a disproportionate share of child care.
…err… Wait!
Guys, guys, guys! Dudes, hold up, Jonathan (the totally not a professional sexist who is so far off in his fantasy kingdom of how the world works he might as well be building sand castles on the moon with Princess Buttercup) has something really important to share.
Now, Jonathan, we have been very rude to you, what with not extending the red carpet and treating your half-hearted belated assfax like the true golden elixir of the Gods because of your God-given penis, but we’re here to apologize.
Cause, see, I know something about discrimination in the workplace. See, ever since I began being visibly out as transwoman, I’ve been undergoing a nonstop campaign of head games and direct attacks designed to make me so miserable and weak that I can’t adequately fight back, needling on weak points and even trying to drive me to suicide to “solve the problem”.
So, please, share your traumatic story. Your instance of on-the-job bigotry on the parts of those evil feminazis. I’m sure it’s much worse than the stories of actual bigotry that women and other minorities have reported on the job. Worse than having an employer try and drive you to suicide. Worse than being sexual harassed or raped by an employer. Worse than dealing day in and day out with “jokes” that diminish and minimize the class of people you belong to as part of a sick general culture.
I’m sure it is horrifying.
In fact it’s so horrifying, I’m sure, that I want you to tell your HR director about it, right now. Let them know it’s just not right. I’m sure it wouldn’t at all reveal you to be a sad and pathetic sexist trying desperately to justify seeing women as the real bullies in order to justify the abusive and sexist behavior you have undertaken your whole life.
C’mon spill, I’m dying to hear it. As someone actually going through bigoted discrimination at work, I’d love to hear what you Privileged P. Never Had to Deal With This Shit in His Life thinks is “discrimination”.
What you would claim as your example of women creating a toxic environment for you.
C’mon, after the endless parade of you abusers, we could use a good laugh, so why don’t you spit it out for all of us to enjoy, you MRA fuck!
C’mon! I’m just dying to hear it!
Gee, substitute your shaving, and how you expect to behave if women complained on overhearing it, and you might have a point. But you don’t. What else is new. You MRA defenders have nothing cogent to say. Inane non-sequiturs like this prove that.
So, if the guys deny it, the woman is lying. If the guys admit it, they must have been gotten to by the feminazi conspiracy. Why, it’s so logical. How could I possibly disagree?
Oh right. Because it’s FUCKING STUPID!
Jesus, Cerberus! Women have talked about…bleeding. I’ll just bet they’ve even gone to the horrendous lengths detailed by Lee Coye and discussed…the need to pee!!1!!
Really, couldn’t possibly think of anything more traumatic than that. Nope.
Goodbye Enemy Janine…
You said, “Yes, women talking about their periods is the same as a bunch of guys talking about, say, some uppity woman needing a good fucking to settle her down.”
Nay, it’s MORE offensive then the guy trash-talking about his sexual prowess, which is done in jest and good fun. The period talk is just as offensive to men, as the “good fucking” talk is to women. THE POINT is that how men react to offensive to talk, and how feminists react. Men “live and let live”, walk away and avoid those unpleasant discussions, while feminists rant and rave and stomp their feet and try to control words and silence people and get them fired.
glodson, LykeX…
When it’s her word against theirs, there should be no presumption in her favor. Even the Bible says to “make an accusation before two or three witnesses”. Why should her word be taken before theirs? How do you justify that other than as a demand for unwarranted feminist privilege?
Your references to the “target of the complaint admitt[ing] wrongdoing” is irrelevant, as he was coerced into an attempt to hopefully keep his job. Ever hear of “confession under duress”?
Delft…
“compunction”… “a pricking of the conscience” “to control the thoughts and actions of others”. YOU “get a dictionary”!
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls…
You said, “The core problem is dudebros can no longer behave like they did in the frat house, and must mature to real adults. Who do respect women and watch what they say.”
And yet why don’t feminists have to respect men and watch what THEY say? Why do THEY get to “behave like they did in the sorority house”?
There’s a reason why Mao Tse-Tung and dictators the world over have espoused feminism and female domination of the workplace. Because it neuters the men that might stand up to them, and because feminism promotes silencing dissent and eliminating free speech.
You said, “they don’t need to be sexist per se. Just offensive at that time and place.”
So see my Yankees/Red Sox analogy above. According to your logic, if I find your touting of the Red Sox to be “offensive”, I have the right to report you for a violation of the “code of conduct”.
glodson…
You said, “The core of the problem is male privilege. We don’t get treated differently because of our bodies, because of our sex. We have the power.”
No men DON’T have the power, SOME men at the very top have the power, along with their women. Men at the bottom have LESS power than the average woman. You are indulging in Apex Fallacy, whereby feminists compare a man at the top of society to an average woman, and lament the “inequality”. Tell men dying in war, mines, and at sea that they have “privilege”. Tell men that lose everything in divorce court and get forced to make payments to a woman that cheated on them while they live out of their car that they have “privilege”. Tell men that get thrown in a cage based only on the word of a woman that they have “privilege”.
Caine, Fleur du mal…
You said, “… men often do report inappropriate workplace behaviour, and if that news gets out, guess what happens? All the misogynistic, sexist, stupid assholes treat that man as though he were a woman and make the same kind of threats and do the same kind of bullying.”
Golly gee wiz? Ya mean it’s NOT “rape culture” directed to oppress wymynz??? Ya mean it’s just how guys talk and communicate??? Amen! So then how is it fair that male nature must be cowed in the workplace to be more like female nature? That’s what this is about… feminists neutering men to force them to behave like women.
;)
I’m Nerd, The Redhead is my wife of 35+ years. And as far as I am concerned, it is in the public domain.
@ Jonathan Taveras:
Until you retract this and profusely apologize for it, I’m not even going to bother responding to you substantively. I will, however, join with many others in responding to you personally.
You explicitly condone — no, you approve of — rape threats, death threats, the publication of a private address in connection with such, and when people challenge you on it? You double down. You celebrate your utter lack of common decency. Therefore, I form the following opinion of you:
You’re an absolutely loathsome person, Jonathan Taveras. Your outlook on life is vile, monstrous, and utterly without redeeming value. I can only speculate that you hide this raging lack of empathy and human understanding in real life, since anybody who really got to know you — at least, anybody not already as debased in their own humanity as you — would most likely run away screaming in horror, frantically scraping at their skin to remove even the slightest taint of having been near you.
But ultimately, you’re also rather pathetic. I pity you. Stupid and hateful is no way to go through life, m’boy, and I’m sure you’ll realize it sooner or later.
An elegant solution, you gotta admit, like a witch trial: drown-innocent, survive-guilty-burn. Witch dead, game over.
No, wait. Wasn’t there something in the whole rational business, that an argument has to be falsifiable?
Nah. Let’s just drop the rationality fad. It would destroy our argument. Let’s keep it simple: Bichez lie!
Right, Jonathan?
Remember, saying the word ‘vagina’ offends men and must be stopped, when said during a legislative session discussing forced transvaginal ultrasounds! (source)
Right, so I’ve almost caught up, and:
Jonathan. Your talent for histrionics notwithstanding, you’re an MRA. I suspected it, it’s now been confirmed and all that’s left to establish is if you’re going to own up to it which, to be honest, is of no interest to me whatsoever. A man who buys into that mindset is either very young or very stupid, either of which automatically makes him uninteresting in more ways than one. As such, I’m off to bed because it’s 11 PM here and it’s been a busy day.
FFS. “The neutering of the male population”…
Who says they didn’t grow up? Another non-sequitur in anycase.
More evidenced assertions, which are *floosh* dismissed as lies and bullshit. Why can’t you back up what you say with links to the academic literature? Oh, that’s right, you’re pulling all this out of your ass without regard to the veracity of what you say. And you expect your OPINION to be treated like it is carefully researched and backed up? What a loser.
Remember, this is the kind of logical argument that the fuckface is trying to teach we foolish busybody feminists. That men overhearing talk about menstruation is just as offensive as women hearing that some uppity woman needs a good fucking. Yes, hearing about a function of the body is the same as how a person needs to be physically violated.
If you ever wondered what it would be like to have a skull full of chum instead of a brain, just read the works of Jonathan Taveras.
Pteryxx:
I think I’ll go place my head under a pile driver now.
Jijoya:
Well, aren’t you keeping up your quota in humanely trapping men and taking them to the vet?
But it’s not. It’s her word, plus their word, plus the word of the conference against you, a person who wasn’t even there.
Very convenient. Any evidence of such coercion or are you just assuming that he was coerced because otherwise you’d have to admit you’re wrong? And what about the conference organizers? Are they also being coerced?
Besides, why are we talking as if this was a criminal case? The question at hand was whether the guys were violating the rules of conduct for the conference. The conference managers clearly decided that they did. They talked to them and the guys agreed to modify their behavior. Case closed.
The part where one of the guys was fired is not directly related to this. That was wrong, but it was a decision being made by the company he worked for. Take it up with them, if you wish. It has nothing to do with Adria.
So, what was you point, again?
Besides, is it very productive to compare the people at the bottom of one group with the average person of another? Seems to me the only reason you’d want to do that is to deliberately skew the analysis.
Oh, I see.
I wish these MRA “skeptics” would at least read up on the basics of skepticism. If they did that, we’d have a common vocabulary and tools we could use to have a productive discussion. As it is, we’re stuck with them making giant leaps with no evidence and us trying to give them a remedial education.
Stephanie Zvan just called it:
Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man…
I’m not trying to gain anyone’s pity or special treatment for supposed “oppression” I’ve faced. I’ve faced hardships that you know not of, and I haven’t demanded that the world stop and circle around me because of it. I am refuting YOUR demands for the world to do that, and the demands of feminists for the world to stop and revolve around their sensitivities and feeeeeeeelings. Suck it up! STOP trying to control the words and actions of others, and focus on your own words and actions.
Delft…
Women DESERVE to earn less than men, because they work less hours, less overtime, they take more time off for maternity care, they work less dangerous jobs, and they stay in their careers for less time and so do not see the same benefits of seniority. That “women get paid less than men” myth is the most bogus of lies. If you work less, you should get paid less! It’s economics, not oppression.
jijoya…
You said, “For what it’s worth, Jonathan, if listening to such exchanges in a professional environment distracts or offends you, you should complain.”
Men don’t complain… that’s my point. Feminist = whiner. How’s about we ALL stop complaining. Women can talk about their periods and leg shaving, and men can talk to other men about what THEY talk about… without some nosy busybody feminist butting into business that is none of hers.
Goodbye Enemy Janine…
You said, “Abused women who, fifty years ago, could not easily leave their husbands now have some options. A talented women gets to advance farther then a less talented man because of a change in society when, seventy years ago, she never would have had a chance.”
“Some options”? To confiscate money that they didn’t earn because they got bored in a marriage? What happened to “strong and independent”? Any feminist that supports alimony is an out and out hypocrite. A talented woman SHOULD advance further than a less talented man, but quotas make it so that a LESS talented woman advances further than a MORE talented man. Your acceptance of this proves how feminists are hypocrites that only want PRIVILEGE. NOT equality.
glodson…
You said, “What? VAWA is a problem? A law meant to protect the victims of domestic abuse is a problem?”
MEANT to protect? What a law MEANS to do and what it actually accomplishes are two different things. You can call a law the “saving puppies and kittens and unicorns act”, and next the thing you know you people will be accusing us of “hating puppies and being unicornophobic” for not supporting it. VAWA only serves to make a man “guilty until proven innocent” and allows the woman to throw him in a cage on a whim, not unlike a Muslim man in a Middle East country throwing his woman in a cage on a whim. It regards a man hitting a woman as domestic violence caused by the man, and a woman hitting a man over the head with a frying pan as ALSO domestic violence caused by the man. What happened to equality? You don’t want equality… you want privilege and special treatment.
LykeX…
I’m arguing that it was her word against theirs and that she shouldn’t get any presumption in her favor of her word being more valuable.
@Jonathan Taveras
You still don’t know what compunction means. You’re also having difficulties with prepositions. Try getting a dictionary with sample sentences. I think there is a learner’s edition of Oxford Dictionary of the English Language. Also any dictionaries for EFL should be good for you.
Caine @1619
I thought it was supposed to be endemic? You mean we have to pay for the vet?!
Jonathon, for a guy who doesn’t want to whine, you sure whine a lot. Have you considered growing a thicker skin? Because you are coming across a big giant crybaby.
Sorry fuckwit, your OPINION refutes nothing. It establishes nothing. Your OPINION isn’t worth the electrons used to post it. What you can cite to back up your opinion, on the otherhand, is what is worth something. But all you offer is OPINION. WORTHLESS UNVEVIDENCED DRIVEL.
More unevidenced, hyperbolic, and fuckwitted OPINON *floosh* dismissed as a person knowing they lost the argument, but has to try to pitifully get in a last and irrelevant word.
Delft:
Pffft, no. You just take the money or credit card out of the humanely trapped man’s pocket. After all, we are evil feminists.
I am shocked, shocked to see that the MRA privileged asshole is not willing to actually stand behind his bullshit about women totally harassing him just as much as work.
I am also shocked to see him still claim to be a truly victimized victim in a Feminazi-dominated world while whining his ever-loving head off about the so-called “victim culture” of women.
Oh HAI there, IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION, I almost missed seeing you with the flashing neon signs and all!
It is the same conversation we have with deluded creationists and their fractured up-is-down understanding of reality, but with the added benefit of deliberately attempting to diminish actual suffering and co-opt it because of the douche’s inability to handle the guilt that their chosen viewpoints arise in them.
@ LykeX…
Look up Apex Fallacy and see how feminism is based on it. The patriarchy is a lie… male privilege is a lie. Women have usually had it better than men throughout MOST of history. Who had it worse, the one conscripted to fight in the king’s war, or the one who (boo hoo) had to wash a little laundry by hand (until a man invented the waashing machine).
You said, “It’s her word, plus their word, plus the word of the conference against you, a person who wasn’t even there.”
Didn’t Adria Richards get fired? I think there’s some more to those “words” than you described. The ONLY one who supposedly heard their talk was her. The conference simply took her word unjustifiably.
@ Goodbye Enemy Janine…
“a good fucking” is NOT being “physically violated”. Get off your high horse.
@ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls…
Allow me to clarify…
The average man has LESS power than the average woman in today’s “you go grrrrrrrl” society.
@ jijoya…
I’m not a MRA, I’m an equal opportunity defender of rights and justice. If I saw women being oppressed, I would defend them, but for the most part, women in today’s society do the oppressing. The proper response to an injustice is anger and rebuke. How can you feminists lay claim to “wanting equality”, when you NEVER stand up for areas where men are denied equality? This PROVES, irrefutably, that feminism is NOT about “equality”, it is about female and privilege and faux victimhood as a means to that privilege.
@ Delft…
It’s very simple… when it’s her word against theirs, she should get no presumption in her favor.
@ PatrickG…
You said, “You explicitly condone — no, you approve of — rape threats, death threats…”
No I do not… you are either lying or unable to understand my points. I APPROVE of free speech and freedom and liberty generally, and I recognize the threat to those things by nosy busybodies who get offended easily and would seek to mold the laws and rules so as to accomodate their sensitivities. I see an internet post of trash-talking against Adria Richards, to be less of a threat than attempts to censor such posts.
Anyway, I’m done here for now, time to eat… it’s been fun diving into the lion’s den. I’ll leave off by saying that feminism is one of the greatest enemies of women… just see how the female happiness coefficient has declined steadily since the 1970’s. Women are more miserable than ever, and feminism is to blame.
Take care all… don’t hate me too much for wanting equality rather than PC female privilege. I hope you guys can one day come to embrace equality, as well.
Lie = untruth. Bogus lie = something that is falsely masquerading as a lie = truth. So that women get paid less then men is the highest truth.
Thanks for conceding that.
So you earn money by not being bored in a marriage?
And now they tell us!
@Jonathan Traveras
In case you’re wondering. This is the only response you deserve.
*floosh*
Work less hours? WRONG.
Work less overtime? WRONG.
Maternity leave (not “care”, you idiot)? WRONG. Men take paternity leave, Cupcake. Also, a significant percentage of women are childfree, which means they do not want and do not have children.
Work less dangerous jobs? WRONG. I suppose all those men in middle management, office and retail jobs are really risking it, eh? Christ, you’re stupid.
Stay in their careers less time? WRONG. There are reasons people invest in a career. Lots of men can’t manage to keep a job, let alone invest in a career, but hey, who cares, right?
Don’t see the benefits of seniority? WRONG. Gotta say, it would be nice if women didn’t keep bumping into that pesky glass ceiling all the time.
Cerberus:
Yeah, we’re real good at that silencing business, aren’t we?
You heard it here first. Bullying is “male nature”. It’s so weird that they accuse us of hating men when we don’t insult men near as much as they do.*
Ha.
So, the usual “I got mine, fuck the rest of you” attitude. The boat anchors of society.
Like monster trucks and bear wrasslin’, right? Woo! Wimmin be shoppin’! Hur hur! Can I have a sitcom deal now?
I should be getting other work done, it’s just too much a target-rich environment here. Just do a ctrl-F on this page for “Mao Tse Tung” and “frying pan” to get a good look at how completely loopy Jonathan is.
* Maybe because we actually treat people as people and don’t level accusations at entire genders?
Jonathan @1630
Fuck off, learn even a modicum of history and tag in the next one, cause, this tired pathetic shit is not going to go anywhere. You are arguing the equivalent of “well, you see when the unicorns stormed the beaches of Vietnam, Hitler’s snowcones were forced to become bunnies, therefore the Spanish Inquisition never happened.”
It’s entirely detached from reality and not only ignorant to facts that have been well-researched by people who know the fuck they are talking about and carefully compiled in great heaping stacks, but also ignorant to facts about the world you can see with your very eyes. You deny the existence of things that are painfully, mind-numbingly obvious in service to denying things that are less obvious but no more real.
Why bother treating you like a good-faith arguer, then? You clearly aren’t and you clearly are heavily emotionally invested in a transparent fiction, so why don’t you fuck back off to your cave, tell them the bitches wouldn’t listen to your man logic and we can move on to the next one.
What is the female happiness coefficient and why Jonathan Taveras can’t blockquote?
You won’t stop complaining. So, you aren’t a man then. Glad we got that cleared up.
What if you don’t? What if you work just as hard, for just as long, but happen to do it while being female? Should you still be paid less?
Incidentally, we just had a reference about how women who choose not to have children are looked down upon and denied promotions. Link. So, if women have children, they get paid less. If they don’t, they get paid less. Sounds really fair.
You’re doing it yourself, albeit with reversed polarity. You’re judging the group of men, not by its most successful members, but by its least successful members. That’s no less fallacious.
Incidentally, that was my point. You know, the one you completely ignored.
What does that have to do with anything? The conference didn’t fire her. The guys didn’t fire her. She was fired because hateful little shit-stains like yourself bullies the spineless boss of her company to fire her. The shit-stains weren’t there. The boss wasn’t there.
Can you give me a single example of someone who was there and dispute her side of the story? If not, we can, by your own standard, assume that she was correct. Nobody said she was wrong.
The people who were there all agree that she was right, so on what basis are you disputing it?
Your objections still come down to this: You, a person who wasn’t there and have no special access to information about the incident, feel perfectly justified in ignoring what everybody who was there is saying and substituting your own delusional version of events.
There it is again. They really get off on that, don’t they.
Goodness sakes, another moronic muppet. Such a surprise.
@Jim Butt
Is that it? That’s what you’ve got? Well, have fun masturbating all over this thread. It’ll probably be the most productive thing you ever do.
Sexist ableist troll is sexist and ableist.
Boring.
No troll points for you.
This is why we’ll win. The only tactic they have is throwing shit around. You can’t keep doing that without making it painfully clear to everyone that you’re both smelly and disgusting.
So, keep talking guys. Talk long and loud. Make it perfectly clear what you think and why. Make sure that nobody can avoid noticing who you are and how you see the world. Go on, hand us victory on a silver platter.
@Cerberus
Lol. Double-lol.
Could really be little Johnny, except you got the grammar right.
He’s ignorant, inarticulate, and completely out of touch with reality – but maybe he does believe all that rubbish? His self-pity certainly seemed sincere enough.
I don’t know whether there’s any way to reach people like that. And I’m sure he thinks the beating he took here is proof of his own delusions.
.
Btw. I really admire the way y’all can keep addressing the “arguments” directly. I need a minimum of coherence to argue against. When I read “… Hitler … snowcones … bunnies …” I can’t do that, my brain just goes into ridicule mode.
Jim Butt @1640
You’re the new
sockpuppet, I mean, tagged in misogynist?…
Well, I appreciate your honesty at least. Okay, little man, make some women suffer so you can feel more like a man. I’m sure that will at all fill the emptiness inside you or get you any closer to the homosocial support without constant strings and stress that you crave.
And when you’re done and the emasculating words of all us mean feminazis cause you to run off and hide don’t forget to tag in the next one.
Wow, they must be getting deep in their bench, because this one is a real snore.
Kitterbethe:
You aren’t kidding.
Cerberus:
I expect it’s Rapey Nym, who finally figured out logging in via FB was not particularly intelligent. This would be his demonstration of original thought and wit.
So we must be winning then, if you’re not entertained.
Gee, funny how MRA fuckwits offer nothing but attitude, attitude, and attitude. Almost like they know if they can’t fake it, the vapor their arguments are based on will be exposed to the harsh light of reality. Which has a feminist bent….
Jim, if you are Benn, you’d better cop to it – PZ will ban you for sockpuppeting, and I don’t doubt several people would be happy to alert him to check out your IP info to see if you are.
Naaaaaaaawww!
This toy is broken. It won’t even give a good squeek.
#1654 Caine, Fleur du mal
Yeah, it’s not like “Jim Butt” is all that different or far from the original. Just look at what’s in urbandictionary here. (What’s there is disturbing, Trigger Warning.)
Asphinctersayswhat?
Cerberus:
Hell Naaaaaaaaaawww! even. Hahahahahahaha.
Rey Fox – heh. Party on.
Jim – aw, so evasive! And so, so sure that you’ll be banned because we can’t handle your IDEAS, never mind that it’s sockpuppeting that you’d be banned for.
Aaw, look Carlie, he likes you.
This one is too boring and obvious to be interesting. *yawn*
Incidentally, this might be a good time to send a message out to all those guys who are supposedly “good guys”, yet feel the need to explain why women are totally overreacting and how there’s really no problem with sexism. Two points:
1) Look at people like Jim Butts. They exist. They’re real people and they really think that way. How do you feel about that?
2) If you’re such a “good guy” where are you? Why aren’t you fighting this fight? If you don’t speak out against it, don’t be surprised if we assume you’ve got no problem with it.
Hey, do you all hear something? Sounds like a fart.
Also sexual “jokes” are never used to minimize women and used to make them feel unwelcome and harassed. I mean, just look at all the sexual “jokes” used in this thread. Just at all the fucking innocence.
Bob damnitt these idiots just can’t help proving our points for us.
Dance! Dance!
UnknownEric:
Can’t hear a thing. I’m just kicking back with a fresh cuppa. Although, there was some whine about how I would be writhing by now. Tsk.
Hey everybody, we’re boring old Jimbo. We better start talking about monster trucks or something.
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 5
That’s your whole gambit. The stupider you sound, the less of a human you are. Nothing but bad attitude without an argument. Attitude =/= argument. And you will be gone and all your posts deleted when PZ does spy your game.
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 6
Rey:
What, we aren’t going to have a round table on menstruation and the perils of shaving?
Sorry. How about monster trucks on FIRE?
My apologies, 7
Missed the one tucked into a full sentence.
What say, Caine, is it time to ask PZ to check the IP addresses?
Can I have a shitty “I don’t actually understand quantum mechanics” quantum mechanics joke?
Being driven on a football field by Ted Nugent?
Oh, wow. The troll turnover is getting faster; they switched out before I even caught up with the page. The ‘new’ one is even more tedious though. Seriously, when this is the best you’ve got, it’s time to rethink your life, and either learn something or just fuck off somewhere where you won’t inflict your boring dumbassery on anyone else. I hear there’s loads of cheap land in Siberia; rugged he-men like you imagine yourself to be should have no problem hewing a living out of the raw land there, and you can be as stupid and bigoted as you like, with noone around to tell you off for it.
Umm, am I missing something?
Apparently everything that doesn’t include “men:gods::women:dogs” is boring and inconsequential to our guest, Butthead.
One must wonder why the fuck ever is he here then?
I hear it attracts bears!
#1692 UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama?
With lots and lots of crashes.
Better include Chuck Norris for good measure.
This one is boring and inconsequential.
Can we get a refund?
Well, sorry. I thought your style was to post short, disjointed passages. The fact that you wrote two full, connected sentences threw me for a loop.
And while we’re at it,
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 8
I hear that one time, he lightly slapped a car door and the debris formed its own galaxy.
And that galaxy spawned Jim Butt.
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 10
#1700 Delft
I wish we could but the question remains, who the fuck would take this one back though?
Huh, I suddenly have this song stuck in my head, specifically the part 1:30 on.
And to the most honest troll we’ve had in days, I say this:
Oh please, I’m a trans* poly asexual gender-non-conforming atheist outspoken-feminist and one of my jobs is satirist of the worst the right-wing blogosphere can generate and am currently being illegally discriminated out of my job. That you think you can even hope to reach the level of hate I deal with every day or even that which any other woman on this thread does is cute to say the least.
You are small fry, wanting to be a big dog in a culture that will never respect you because it feeds off your desperation to prove yourself.
But hey, yap like a chihuahua if that makes you feel better.
I think he’s hitting on me. What should I do?
#1705 Jim Butt
HAHAHAH
Yeah, you may need to devote all two of your brain cells on us here to rub out your one note wonder mess, but believe me cupcake I’m not distracted or focused entirely on you.
Hit back?
Carlie:
Yes, I think so.
@JAL
They’d have to. Nobody’s chewed him yet. Not worth the trouble.
CITATION NEEDED OR *FLOOSH* DISMISSED AS HYPERBOLE AND FUCKWITTERY. MAKING YOU A PRIMA FACIE LIAR AND BULLSHITTER.
Aww… he’s terrible.
I bet he wouldn’t even splat good.
All boring brown goo…..
sad.
Rey @1709
Summon an eldritch horror.
Aw, you think you’re winning? You don’t seem to know where you are. Here, we like to bat the trolls around and feed thm until they explode. You’re well on your way – you’re down to nothing but gendered and ableist insults already; not much left in your arsenal but all-caps, I fear.
#1712 Jim Butt
The projection is strong with this one.
Rey:
Have a baseball bat handy?
I love that record. From the title on down.
Gee, can’t even prove one thing with a link to the literature. And his WORD/OPINION is considered nothing but lies and bullshit without a link to third party evidence. What an abject and irrelevant loser.
@carlie
He’s like one of those small children who are so desperate for attention that they’ll happily knock over the stereo just so the adults will look at him for five minutes. Who are we to disappoint the little tyke.
Rey:
Naw, it’s sharks you gotta worry about!
@Jim Butt
You’re falling behind on your “Boring and inconsequential” count. We’ve got a pool going and I’ve got money on you reaching 25 before you move on. Don’t let me down.
#1702
You really are a complete fool, aren’t you. Is it your belief that everyone else in this thread is female? I haven’t bothered to keep track of the times you’ve misgendered people besides myself, but I would have thought that to a literate adult familiar with modern American usages my ‘nym might provide a clue about my gender. (hint: swing and a miss; care to try again?)
Tell me how submissive I am again. It gets me hot.
We have a new troll? Who can magically determine the gender of posters?
LykeX:
Too bad ol’ Rapey nym isn’t familiar with a thesaurus.
Well, if by “magically determine the gender of posters” you mean “call everyone a cunt”, then yes.
Wowbagger@1732
Nah… he can’t. He can’t do anything right.
Troll of no distinction.
Wowbagger:
Pffft, we’re all bitches, haven’t you heard? Jonathan typed his poor fingahs off informing us that all men were neutered, ya know.
Well, he seems to have trouble with common first names. And pronouns. But other than that, magic.
LykeX wrote:
Oh, one of those. Yawn.
Clearly we need a new pool.
“Retarded” count: 16
Place your bets, people.
Oh, and has he threatened to kick all our asses in ‘the real world’ yet? I do love an internet tough guy.
#1738: Uh oh, we’ve made him mad.
Still three posts behind, Jim! Pick up the pace!
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 13
“Retarded” count: 18
And pardon me for trying to have a little fun, here. It’s not like there’s a hell of a lot of content in your posts. I’ve got to work with what I’ve got.
I just said something boring!
Rey:
Best prepare for the stomping of his widdle feetsies then.
Wowbagger @1732
Well, he apparently defines anyone who disagrees with him as female. And he really, really doesn’t like them. That appears to be what he came here to say, poorly. I wonder if the tag team program is running out of steam; this is the lowest quality one yet; at least the last couple could write a paragraph.
anyone for a pool on a custom troll bingo card? Squares for every use of ‘stupid’ ‘retard’ ‘worthless’ ‘inability’ ‘completely’ ; ‘entirely’ ‘me’ ‘cunt’ ‘submissive’ ‘boring’; ‘inconsequential’ ‘angry’ ‘shit’ ‘fail’ ; ‘fetch’ ‘wrong’ ‘blaming’ ‘delusional’ ‘denying’; ‘nature’ ‘childish’ ’emotional’ ‘drivel’ and ‘dumb’. ‘castrated’ goes in the center square for free.
Now I’m curious how long it’ll take him to provide a bingo on every possible permutation.
Yawn, funny how the bigger the attitude, the smaller the argument. This troll has infinite attitude, so zero argument. Nobody knows what it want, even it…
Now he’s gonna say “So you admit you’re boring”!
Dalilamma wrote:
Oh, okay.
Has anyone told him what killfile is yet? And that it means some of us have no idea what he’s writing?
I see the immature male mind doesn’t understand it is dealing with male minds. Real males. Not fake male like his….
I know you are but what am I?
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 13
“Retarded” count: 19
Another troll who thinks his possession of SRY makes him automagically better than 50% of humanity?
lolz.
What are the odds he’s just another loser trying his best to pretend to be superior to at least somebody.
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 13
“Retarded” count: 20
*BZZT* Ohh! You skipped #1749! No points.
Ahh, I was wondering when he’d bust out the M word.
Pteryxx:
You left out ‘vagina’ and ‘vaginal’. Apparently ol’ Rapey Nym thinks they are as insulting as ‘cunt’.
Wow, #1753 was four in a single post: ‘cunts’ ‘fetch’ ‘entirely’ and ‘me’.
Best anagrams:
Screech Eminently Tuft
Screechy Fluent Mitten
Tricycle Feet Huntsmen
Licence Unfetters Myth
and my favorite:
Tumescence Fret Thinly
Angry? Cupcake, you are far too clownish to make me angry. I get angry at people who I think are smart enough to know better. You’re just like one of those little sound keychains that have a bunch of buttons and each one has a little catchphrase. “Cunt!” “Retard!” “Boring!” “Please pay attention to me I have no life and no one likes me!”
Do you grade the trolls here?
What are the categories?
I mean, this one’s pretty low grade, has a limited attention span and a severely limited vocabulary, but he does know how to use the spelling autocorrect function. Does that count in his favour?
Jim Butts seems to feel that his efforts here are urgent in maintaining “the natural order”.
He also attributes to the Horde’s efforts what can be explained by the Horde’s muscle memory.
Pteryxx, you’ll have to add ‘mangina’ now.
Since it means so much to you, I’d hate to disappoint. Are you sitting down? *hhrhmm*
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 14
“Retarded” count: 21
#1738 Jim Butt
We weren’t trying in the first place. Why waste our best material on a chewtoy that won’t even squeak? That’s like asking for Romen Noodles in a 5 star restaurant. You might as well stay home. You’re out of your league here, cupcake.
Well, I really am well and truly bored now. Fortunately, I’m smart enough to go do something else when I get bored. Oh, and Jim, you missed at least two of my comments, so you’ll never get into my panties now.
Aah, clever girl.
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 14
“Retarded” count: 24
You’re one behind now.
I miss Johnathan. The Mao argument is the funniest thing I.du ever fucking heard. Oh man. Like the nationalist fascist regime was so pro woman they even adopted literally the Nazi Kinder Kirche und Kurche viewpoint. Just like Iran and Saudi Arabia and South Africa and Pinochetand Romania and Franco who all empowered women to maintain autocratic control.
It’s too bad because discussions of semi or fully autocratic regimes empowering women while suppressing their free speech rights is actually interesting in like the three times that’s ever happened. But arly it’s too c control the menz.
Delft:
No, I don’t think so. There’s been zero effort so far, no points for tech you don’t need to think about. I’m just waiting to see if he can figure out thesaurus, as he’s obviously vocabulary poor. Big word, I know, it will take time.
Best anagram for ‘retarded retarded retarded’:
Data Trader Deterred Redder
You don’t get to define the “male mind”, being a BOY. That’s the problem with MRA contingent. They never grew up, like real men do.
“Boring and inconsequential” count: 14
“Retarded” count: 25
Choosing to be a troll demonstrates a terrible personality, but being so tragically mediocre at it?
really sad.
Hey Nerd, would you leave off with ‘boy’? Too much splash damage.
You are such a tease, Rey.
Seriously, should we be worried that we hit Peak Troll? Jim Butt is reading like the stale troll in the MRA emergency kit in the garage.
Kitterbethe:
Mediocre? :falls over laughing: Oh, he could only wish to be mediocre.
That is the best sentence I’ve read in a long, long time.
Oh no, Jim. Trust me, I’m not mad. When I get mad, I get verbose. You’re not even worth breaking the top 1000 most common words list for.
Lets see what the “mature mind” of JB will come up on how to define a “real man”. I bet it will be the equivalent of an adolescent thinks a man should be, not that of somebody who has been there for over half their life and faces reality, not self-delusions.
This is really getting boring. I guess I’ll go browse youtube for a while. What’s the world coming to when you can’t even count on trolls for a bit of entertainment? I’ve had a hard day, you know. I need a few laughs.
*mumble grumble*
Kids! Get off my lawn!
Jim Butt, are you attempting to hurt my feelings?
That’s … marginally more interesting than the other stuff you’re posting here. But it’s a pretty thin margin.
Docfreeride:
Oh, I don’t think we need to worry about anything peaking here. Heh. There’s a good possibility that this latest is a sockpuppet of an idiot attempting to be clever and failing miserably, mostly on page 3.
And JB, the immature one, can’t define anything. Must be a character flaw in the peanut serving as its mental power.
So, I’m guessing ‘Jim Butt’ isn’t saying anything worth quoting. Seems typical.
Jim Butt @1801:
OK, this has to be performance art. Right?
(Except, when did performance art become so boring and repetitive?)
LykeX:
Yes, it is and has been. Time to check in elsewhere for a while.
AHAHAHAHAHA…
“mangina cunts inconsequential” anagrams to
“Malignant conquest in nuisance”
“boring and inconsequential” anagrams to
“Squinting noble on radiance”
the projection is awkward
Carlie:
Oh, now “Malignant conquest in nuisance” is fabulous. If only the poor, poor troll could come up with something half as interesting.
Mirror syndrome from the trolls again. Still not defining what it means. Because it is too unintelligent and immature to really argue a point.
Atta boy Jimmy! I can’t tell you how impressive your laser-like focus on every little post is. If only there were a word for it, that constant vigilance, that undivided attention, that single-mindedness…
carlie wrote:
Heh. Ain’t language grand?
C’mon, Jim. The only way you’re going to reach me is if you write something that someone else quotes. So, you’d probably better come up with at least a couple of decent lines.
Wowbagger
I’m beginning to suspect that instead of an incompetent troll who’s a horrible person, we’re actually dealing with a mediocre programmer who’s a horrible person. The troll has about the responsiveness of a python script written by a first semester CS student.
The immaturity of JB keeps dropping. What next? A Primal Scream?
Jim, let me see if we can get this through to you: you are being mocked. If anyone was seriously upset by what you’re saying, they would have already asked PZ to take a look at it, and you might have been warned, if not totally banned. It doesn’t appear that anyone has done that yet, because we don’t care enough to. You’re entirely toothless, and it’s simply idly amusing to watch you swim around your little pond in circles trying vainly to prove that you’re a bigger fish than you are.
Dalilamma wrote:
So you’re saying ‘Jim’ is not even capable of a paragraph of an argument? That’s pretty weaksauce.
..it’d be amusing to run MRA screeds through a Markov generator.
Prediction: the markov chains will be just as comprehendable.
Remember in the old days, when you could count on trolls to be able to pass the Turing test?
Aw man, we’re dealing with a bot? That would explain everything. Quick, Jim, prove you’re not a script! Prove it! Sound your barbaric yawp and show that you! are! alive!
Carlie:
Yes, indeed. Why I haven’t writhed in torment once! Terrible grade of trolls we get anymore.
I am assuming that Jim Butt is one of those below average men that Jonathan Taveras is out to defend from this feminist dominate society that we live in.
Also, who let in a YouTube troll?
Caine @ 1829
“There’s very little troll in this gym mat.”
/Lunchlady Doris
I’m so bored, I’m going to fix dinner for the Redhead. Planned over corned beef and cabbage, Irish soda bread, *lime jello*, a Killian’s red, with a half cup of Irish coffee and chocolate/pistacho cake for desert. I’ll check back it couple of hours and see if anything is said…(I doubt it).
Docfreeride:
Lunchlady Doris got that right. Aaw, did the bot time out?
Oh my fucking god.
Every time I check into this thread, it goes up a few hundred comments. I just…what the hell??!! Has anyone run a tall of all the sexist fuckwits and rape culture defenders we’ve had here?
tall=tally
Caine @ 1833:
I’m actually feeling morbid curiosity about the quality of trolling we’ll see if we go one deeper in the bench than Jim Butt.
I mean, we have to hit an asymptote eventually, right?
It’s worse than that – he’s dead! Jim!
Our script bot has ceased to reply!
Repetitive words
Shouted sans understanding
This one squeaks no more.
Lower quality than that might boil down to just posting random bad words in all caps.
*ahem*
POO.
thankyou.
not with a bang, but a whimper
mediocre all the way down.
Docfreeride:
You’d think so. I don’t think Jim will come through for us, though.
Carlie:
:wipes away tears of laughter: Oh, I love you.
Sex and weapons grade stupid is no way to go through life, fuckface.
Kindly flush yourself down the toilet when you leave.
Sexist and…
sigh…
Docfreeride:
…no, actually.
How can the weapons grade stupid butthead tell if the author of a given comment is a manly man?
Caine – I was hoping somebody would catch it. :)
I think our JimBot is stuck on repeat. That is, unless he thinks the pinnacle of intellectual superiority is saying “retarded” over and over again. Which, now that I think about it, might well be the case.
As I said, the immaturity level of the trolls is dropping, this troll will be a toddler throwing a temper tantrum in a few more posts…
Chris Clarke, I usually do not call for the use of a banhammer. But given the sheer inanity of Jim Butt, it is time. Being stupid and tedious is a ban-able offense.
And he has earned his merit badge for the pit.
That takes one post with attitude and run away as the craven cowards they are. This one is just cravenly stupid.
Having read some of Benn’s egregiously sexist comments at the beginning of this thread, is it too much to hope his inanity has been shitcanned?
Learn what censorship is, fuckface. Being banned from a blog is not censorship. You have the rest of the fucking world to alienate by insisting on calling everyone else a cunt.
But at least you have shown that you have enough brain cell functioning to pick up one of the prime Slymie meme. You family must be proud.
I think Jimmy should be canned for the high crime of boring us to tears.
Tony:
Yes, it is. I don’t believe anyone reported Benny.
Janine:
As hesitant as I am to use my moderation privileges here in PZ’s thread — read: under my agreement with PZ, we each moderate our own threads — it seemed like Jim was so far beyond the gray area that I’ve cast him into the spam bin in a method PZ can reverse if he chooses.
Well. One comment is gone. I was quoting the ever witty Jim Butt in my last comment.
Thanks, Chris.
Oh, that’s it, fuck Jim too. I just had to read one comment by this douchebag to agree with Janine. Freely tossing around gendered insults like that is ridiculous. Given the nature of his vacuous post at 1844, I get the feeling he is here to stir the pot, not to even remotely contribute to actual conversation.
Fucking douchebag ROCKSTARS in smegmarmalade sauce.
Thanks, Chris!
Thank you, Chris. Everyone needed a break from that.
While extremely illogical, Jonathan Taveras was at least trying to present an argument. Jim Butt, not so much.
Rule 1: Nobody calls docfreeride ugly and lives.
Chris:
Good rule. Now I’m off to do something truly amusing, play with the rats.
I doubt that the troll knows who she is nor would he care.
Just being a woman is enough to prove how uneducated she is..
Sorry about the delay, I had to change my socks, why is it that I can’t find a comfortable pair of socks anymore?
Johnny, Johnny, Johnny, no! I know I shouldn’t be disappointed, what with your damn near perfect record of telling it like it is, but you misunderstand me. I’m in complete agreement with you here. Your technique of fatal brevity is a breathless demonstration of the absurdity of your interlocutors. Sure, it’s a bit Phillip Glass for my tastes, but one as humble as myself shouldn’t question artistic genius when it’s so evidently displayed.
Anyway, stay focused m an, keep going, never let up and glory will be yours.
Annnnd, that’ll teach me to be hesitant in my sarcasm and tardy in my refreshing.
Jonathan:
Well what else do you call it when someone does nothing wrong and handles the situation in a suitable manner? Whatever you call that, Adria Richards did it.
Try reading the entire thread dear.
****
apologies to the Horde. I let this thread slip by my notice (after the first 3 pages), thinking it was going to die out. Apparently SIWOTI, and it was me! As I am on my laptop for a while, I think I shall catch up on all the NON fun.
Maybe, with jim gone, this thread will actually end? Anyone got a bet on how long it’ll take for another MRA troll to show?
Dalillama:
I imagine it won’t be all that long before
BennyJim, er sockpuppet #2 shows up.Jonathan:
and yet…
and yet…
that “professional environment” did not punish Adria Richards for taking pics and tweeting. Hmmm, I guess *maybe* they didn’t have a problem with her actions. Now why do so many other people?
Dang. I was sort of hoping we could get him through sheer mass. I mean, he got really sloppy and rushed in #1841. I highly doubt that he really gave all of those comments their due consideration before judging them. But this thread was starting to crash my browser.
*peeks in* Thanks Chris, I suspect his posts won’t make it out of moderation.
Possibly as Amanda Huginkis?
Also, thanks, Chris.
*bats lashes in the general direction of everyone*
What the fuck was that?
[I just got home.]
Now we’re all ‘female’?
Jimbutt, fusterclucker troll extraordinaire. Hyperhoggler. That’s some dangerous hate.
jerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerkjerk banhammered yay.
Carlie:
I think they’d find that one too scary. Then again, it’s on the right level…
Chigau:
An idiot.
Specifically, cunts and manginas.
Chris @ 1864:
Eh, I was actually sort of amused at the determined attempts to make me sad that trolls don’t find me aesthetically pleasing.
Me: not too bothered not to be giving trolls wood.
chigau (違う) @ 1877:
Maybe it’s like being Spartacus?
Caine
That I figured out for myself.
Is there any clue as to motivation?
Or do we hafta wait for the sockpuppet?
—-
docfreeride
ooooh
Spartacus!!!!
I could do Spartacus.
Docfreeride:
Personally, I always find it amusing that such, er, intellectually challenged types think we’re all going to have a collective swoon over remarks about our appearance or fall into a faint and pop a monocle over the use of cunt.
Chigau:
There’s speculation that “Jim” was a sockpuppet of one “Benn Dover”, who, on page 3 found out that we don’t scare away with sexist comments and had his arse handed to him. He was also stupid enough to log in via FB, and didn’t realize that he was linked until I pointed it out. Took quite a while for the penny to drop.
If I used a monocle, I would assuredly learn to pop it when I heard the word “cunt”.
—
Do women-folk use monocles or do we we use those glasses-on-a-stick things?
Monocle wearing wimmin. Scandalous!
Caine #1886
The use of ‘ and ” in your link confused me but I got this
and the consultation with the maiden aunt.
? This is the link: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3211354
You should be able to read the whole thing.
daaaam
These are fabulous!
lorgnette
Caine #1888
That is hilarious.
But in writings from that time, I sometimes can’t tell irony from sincerity.
[they sure wuz articulater than me]
Well, that was a clusterfuck.
glodson @1891
No… or rather yes, but it was also a sustained and intentional harassment campaign and terrorist action designed to try and burn out, scare, intimidate, and silence those who would speak out against societal sexism as well as continue showing off their “victory” over a woman in punishing her for daring to speak out in the hopes that the object lesson will scare the rest of us out of doing the right thing.
This wasn’t some random weird influx of douchebaggery, it was part of the harassment campaign and is a standard tactic of all oppressor-group terrorist actions against minority group members (cause the best way to keep a minority group down is to make them scared to speak up on their own behalf, because… gosh, I don’t want to be treated like that).
It’s worth remembering that, because this is going to happen the next time they decide to destroy a random woman for daring to speak out about something entrenched.
The sad part is that these idiots likely think they are making points and being logical. Sadly, the idiot who got banned in this thread was the most honest of them all.
The power of self-delusion is impressive to say the least.
I resent being so many hours ahead. I’ve been through the comments made after I retired, and it would appear we were visited by the MRA Boogieman. I suppose nobody informed the previously eviscerated owner of that alter ego (more than one troll shut up as soon as Jimmy walked in so there are options) that boogiemen aren’t supposed to be laughable at best and boring at worst.
Caine:
I do my best. By taking them to sinister FEMALE vets of the FEMINIST persuasion. (Evil laughter ensues.)
Jonathan:
I’ve been aware of that point since before you made it. It’s common among those who waltz in here with your particular set of complaints. Nevertheless, I am unmoved.
Btw, you don’t get to generalize about all men, no matter how badly you need validation.
Negative. YOU can feel free to not complain. Like, ever, about anything. “We ALL” will proceed doing as we see fit, and many of us will go in the exact opposite direction because keeping quiet in the face of shit ensures the status quo will stay the same. Contrary to your gut feeling, this is not a good outcome.
Btw, I have no doubt there are people out there who subscribe to your “Men don’t complain” motto (in this thread, you’ve made it obvious actually living by it is another matter entirely). By and large, however, grownups of either gender do not feel the need to mimic macho caricatures of the lumberjack variety as played by the likes of Clint Eastwood when he was young.
Good (if unsurprising) job assuming only women can be feminist.
Once more for the sofa I’m sitting on: The shit storm being discussed in PZ’s article was not caused by feminists butting in. It was caused by a mob of “men” who found it distasteful a woman complained. Sound familiar? It should. Also, I move for your next suggestion to be “How about men and women just don’t communicate with each other at all?”. That way there’ll be no chance for you to accidentally overhear ANYTHING women say, and have to leave in horror while chanting “Men don’t complain men don’t complain”.
Jonathan, if those are indeed the views you espouse, you’re an MRA (in addition to a selective reader of feminist comments that most definitely stand up for men as well). My condolences.
Maureen Brian:
Unless Richards is an accomplished mind reader (and I didn’t think that this site was supportive of those kind of beliefs), there is a possibility that she misunderstood why the guy was talking about forking. Yet people here claim to “know” that the words was used as a double entendre. I have occasionaly heard those words used in my carrier as a software tester, and there have never been any hints that the users meant anything besides the literal meaning of the words.
Tony:
Really?
JAL:
Caine:
Amphiox:
JAL:
Raging Bee:
Caine:
Tony:
You could have fooled me.
Oh wow, someone doesn’t know the meaning of “ableist”. Quelle surprise.
Oh my fucking god. Figure out what you’re talking about before you say anything. She let the initial forking comment go, then they kept on going until it was clear that they were using tech terms as double entendres. The men who made the comments admitted they were using it in a sexual way. No, there is no possibility that she misunderstood. We “know” that’s how the words were used because the men who said them said that’s how they were using them. Stop wasting time and pixel space writing when you don’t have a clue.
thedude,
Except that the Gentlemen in Question – I use the term gentlemen loosely – almost immediately afterwards agreed with a neutral third party that their behaviour had been inappropriate and unprofessional.
Are you not keeping up?
Well yes, technically they did admit that Adria’s account and interpretation of the events were accurate and that they had behaved unprofessionally, but probably they only did so because they were terrified that if they failed to confess, they would be taken to the torture cellars of the Femistasi, there to be subjected to the agonising horrors of equal opportunities training.
On the broader question of, “You can’t win, can you?’ …
For generations we are told that we women are no good at maths and cannot do spatial manipulation thingies because our brains evolved differently – we are after all a totally different species – so we should not even try, etc, etc, etc. We are offered the consolation prize of being ever so good at inter-personal communication, reading non-verbal clues and all that so we really should not mind etc, etc, etc.
So I look at a situation where I was not present, any more than thedude was, and I ask myself whether Ms Richards had information beyond the fact that two guys were making noises which seemed to include a bit of juvenile double entrendre. So I suggest, as a hypothesis, that a written account of the words said is maybe not the whole story.
And behold – I am accused of having or claiming to have magical powers!
No, dear! I am using the skills and knowledge I’ve been developing all my life. Not because they are inherent! Not because they are the only skills I have! Because such skills are useful (and equally available to men if they’d put in a bit of effort.)
I remember a couple of times at major shows where the techie people had rigged the lighting in the big hall as if every presentation was going to be a speech from the throne, so that all I could see from the podium was the feet – just the feet! – of the people in the front row. So there I was answering questions both complex and sensitive from people I could not see where the tone of voice was at least half the information I had.
I also know how to suck eggs.
thedude @1896:
Pteryxx way back @57 quoted Adria:
That’s an unequivocal claim that “forking the repo and continuing development” itself was “fine until the guy next to him… began making sexual forking jokes”.
(For the umpteenth time, I note that single “until” blows that stupid claim of misapprehension on Adria’s part out of the water, because it entails “before” the actual sexual joking)
Or, the claim that Adria misunderstood when tech shop talk crossed the line is what’s commonly known as implausible deniability.
Get over it, O you insecure men: she was their professional peer at that conference, not some ignorant rube, and her calling-out was upheld by the conference organizers. End of that part of the story.
It’s the mob reaction to that event that’s unedifying.
(Bah)
I spent a good deal of yesterday on a daunting pile of paperwork and trying to fight off some terrible bug.
I come back to this thread this morning and find nothing has changed, except that the trolls have stopped trying to pretend they want to debate an instead just want to fling around gendered and ableist insults in some effort to… I don’t know… piss us off? Get us to respond in kind?
The quality of trolls has certainly dropped off since this thread started. I mean, in the first two pages at least they tried to look like they had an argument.
This latest batch, though? Pitiful. Transparent. Boring.
If this is the best the MRAs have to offer after we trounced their “A” game (Which was pretty weak, anyway.) I have to wonder how much longer their “movement” can possibly last.
Gen:
I assume that this comment was directed at me. Why isn’t it ableist when the regulars do it?
thedude, you truly are a dolt.
It wasn’t, and they don’t without getting called out.
(Grats on achieving chew-toy status, BTW)
Yes, exhausted people slip back into oppressive habits. You don’t have that excuse (and it isn’t a good one either; what they did isn’t okay, so much as normal and expected. It takes a great deal of self editting to keep from doing it, because it’s deeply embedded in nerd and intellectual circles), and even if you did, it wouldn’t make it fine, just at most normal and expected. Stop trying to use anti-ableism as a means to deflect from the sexist bullshit you put forth.
carlie:
That she thought that it was “clear” that the forking comments were sexual doesn’t mean that her belief is proven. Where did they admit that the comments about forking were sexual? One of them denied that they were, while at the same time admitting that the “dongle” joke was sexual:
If he really made two sexual jokes, why would he admit to just one of them? Why did Richards decide to quote the innocent remark and not the one that she thought was sexual? Do you really think that no woman ever misunderstands anything? Why are you projecting your own cluelessness onto me?
John:
You have no sensible arguments, so you decide to use ableist slurs instead.
thedude @1909:
Julien Rousseau way back @342 quoted Adria:
(That’s an extract, the entire comment is much more comprehensive)
John:
So you think that because she didn’t misunderstand the first part of the conversation, it is not possible that she might have misunderstood the last part of the conversation. Your point of view makes no sense.
thedude:
Truth is its own defence.
(Hey, why do you quote yourself? ;) )
So thedude doesn’t know what ableist means. Colour me shocked.
He also doesn’t seem to know how to read the press releases from PyCon, SendGrid, Adria’s blog or anything else that would take away from his precious, precious fairytales and force him to deal with reality.
thedude:
Were you not a dolt, you’d realise that I was stating that (and I quote what I actually stated, with added emphasis):
“That’s an unequivocal claim that “forking the repo and continuing development” itself was “fine until the guy next to him… began making sexual forking jokes”.
(For the umpteenth time, I note that single “until” blows that stupid claim of misapprehension on Adria’s part out of the water, because it entails “before” the actual sexual joking)”
—
As to what makes sense, your own point of view (that she suddenly forgot to what forking referred and suddenly switched from following their talk to misapprehending it) is ludicrous.
Typical. Troll shows up. Troll makes sexist/misogynist remarks. Troll ignores any argument. Troll eventually gets a reaction that Troll thinks can be used to show one regular (and thus all regulars) are hypocrites. Will Troll declare victory and go gloat on a certain thread?
@thedude #1896
It doesn’t matter how the words were intended. If I go to the grocery store and tell the girl at the fruit stand that I’d like to squeeze her melons, it doesn’t matter if I’m really talking about melons. I have a responsibility to think before speaking in public and to realize that that was not a good phrasing to use.
Of course, mistakes can be made, but then the proper response is to apologize and try to do better; not to throw a fit about the fact that a woman had the gall to point out your error.
Consider what would happen if we use your standard; do nothing unless it’s conclusively proven that there was ill intent. We’d never do anything. It’s simply too easy for people to cover themselves and ensure plausible denial.
Hell, you’re even doing it yourself in this very thread:
How do you know? Can you read Gen’s mind? There was nothing in Gen’s comment that directly pointed at you, so it’s completely unreasonable for you to assume it had anything to do with you.
@TheDude
Idiot, dumbfuck and moron aren’t ableist, moron. Ableist slurs are slurs used to denigrate people with physical or mental disabilities, e.g. “Retard”, “Rem” or “Spastic”. There is an argument to be made for idiot and moron to be labelled as ableist, but they are not generally accepted as so and are not generally meant as such in modern useage. There is absolutely no way on Earth you could sensibly argue that dumbfuck was ableist.
thedude:
And you have never been a woman tech. I am. Sure, the users tend to be literal around me, but my male colleagues use double-entendres all the time, whether such usage is common or not. One thing I can tell you, from experience, is that it is important to control your working environment to make sure that power-plays and hazing don’t get out of control – and that includes innuendo. Quietly accepting whatever gets dished out is not a wise move – it gets dangerous, quite quickly, as people try to establish the boundaries of what they can get away with. Of course, pushing back has risks as well, but I’ll take that risk any time.
Dumbfuck thinks it must be sexual to be harassment. It doesn’t. Link to case law if you think you have a case Dude. Dude, your unevidenced OPINION will always be *floosh* dismissed as bullshit and lies.
You are not aware that a word can be used as a double entendre for a sexual act, therefore it is never a double entendre? Is that your argument? And argument of ignorance?
More like the old argument from assholishness….
Nono, Ogvorbis, you see The Dood never heard it, never heard of it, never seen it, never was exposed to it, so therefore it doesn’t exist, because The Dood is the entirety of the universe. QED.
kate_waters:
It would seem that it is you who are uninformed in this matter:
http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/01/01/ableist-word-profile-moron/
http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/11/ableist-word-profile-idiot/
Ogvorbis:
Your attempt of strawman tactics is silly. I never said that it couldn’t be used as a double entendre. I simply wished to refute the accepted “truth” around these parts that it is usually used as a double entendre.
What are you talking about? That’s not even within shouting distance of what’s being said here, which is that in this specific case, it was indeed used as a double entendre.
The men admitted that were in the wrong, accepting that what they were accused of doing — using it as a double entendre — was true. Richards, when she heard the comment, took it as a double entendre. So, the men who made the unprofessional remark admitted it was a sex-based joke (thus inappropriate in a professional setting and against the rules of the convention) and one person hearing it also thought it a sex-based joke ((thus inappropriate in a professional setting and against the rules of the convention). The ones in charge of the conference thought it a sex-based joke (thus inappropriate in a professional setting and against the rules of the convention).
So what is your argument again?
Who gives a shit about your asshole OPINION? Either cite some law, or shut the fuck up, as you offer nothing that hasn’t been said many times before. If you could be bothered to actually read the thread.
@thedude #1925
Apparently, there has been some miscommunication. We, in this thread, are discussing a particular case; that of Adria Richards. It would be helpful if you limit your comments to that case. So, do you accept that in this particular case, it was used as a double entendre? If not, why not?
Excellent, thedude. You just defeated your own stupid arguments. You feel idiot is ableist, you show where it has been considered ableist even though it’s not a widely accepted definition of ableist, and even though I state that I don’t feel it’s ableist you assert that YOUR PERCEPTION OF THE COMMENT MAKES IT ABLEIST.
So you gonna shut the fuck up now, cupcake? …Or are you just going to keep being a clueless, ignorant asshole?
Excuse me, instead of idiot that should read “moron”. … but either way:
YOU JUST ARGUED YOURSELF INTO A CORNER.
Indeed. Rarely has such a perfect auto-petarding been seen outside of introductory philosophy classes. My prediction: a textbook demonstration of special pleading will soon follow.
Ooooh, thedude performed The Petard Maneuver!
Caine & others:
You show your stupidity with all your assumptions about me. open your mouth: 8========D
This Booyah has been brought to you courtesy of the Paying Close Attention Foundation and the Having a Brother Who Has a Masters in Philosophy Dinner Theater Company. Special thanks to the Year of Auditing My Boyfriend’s Psychology and Anthropolgy Classes So He Could Pass His Engineering Degree.
Oh! Look! Benn Dover is back! Not that he has much in the way of fun to offer. He’s just so… predictable and boring.
Also: Isn’t he the one logged in through his FB account?
Bendy’s brain squirt just made his keyboard all sticky, what an MRA hero.
@kate waters 1930
I am willing to bet money that he will fail to see the paralells between this and Adria’s situation, and after having it explained to him multiple times will spend a great deal of time trying desperately to prove they are not analogous.
Either that, or he’ll ignore it. Or, if we’re really lucky, he could run away and stop commenting. Fingers crossed, eh?
@Benn Dover
If the “assumption” was that you are a misogynistic moron who enables rape culture, that last comment of yours just proved them right, didn’t it?
And such a thing of beauty and a joy to behold it was. Why, even the Estonian judge, well known for their philosophical reservations about awarding a perfect scores (The contention being that humans are incapable of perfection. A Catholic upbringing leaves marks don’t yah know..) gave thedude a 6.0 for technical merit.
@thumper:
Yeah, it’s possible he’ll just keep trying to argue the same points, but he seems to have some small grain of intelligence so I’m thinking he’ll probably just turn tail and run because even someone as thick as he should be able to see how they’ve made our point for us.
@kate waters
That’s the thing; he genuinely does seem to believe he has a point. Despite all the good arguments against that idea, and despite the fact one of those very good arguments actually came from himself. But still, the fact he believes that makes him marginally more tolerable than Benn Dover, who is clearly just here to be irritating.
Benn Dover is exactly the common kind of asshole who requires everyone to shout out in public when they act up. He’s also exactly the kind of asshole who gets banned here.
You could tell he was going for a demonstration of the irredeemable jerkwad right from his first comment, couldn’t you? He’s also the kind of guy who demonstrates that maybe I’m too tolerant.
@PZ: I think you’re the only one who gets to, or can, decide what to tolerate and not tolerate. But thank you for tossing that jerk out. He had nothing at all of substance to say except gendered insults and attempts to trigger people.
@thumper #1942:
Yes, he thinks he has a point. He just proved to everyone, though, that his point is just so much empty whining and misplaced ego.
Will he get that? Who knows? Would I be sorry if he never came back? No.
Am I sorry Benn is gone? OH HELLS NO. People like Benn belong on reddit or 4chan. Those assholes deserve to be saddled with the likes of him and he deserves to be saddled with the likes of them.
Despite my admittedly token effort, the Horde did its due diligence in shouting at Benny. Thanks for putting an end to it PZ.
@PZ
For what it’s worth, I think you’ve got it right. The others may be irritating, but at least they actually have an argument, or think they do. Benn was merely a deliberately offensive arsehole who did not even attempt to add anything to the conversation.
@Kate Waters
Agree with your comment completely. However the mere fact he thinks he has a point makes him, for me, just tolerable, because he’s not being a deliberately offensive derailing arsehole.
@thumper:
I agree with your assessment of thedude. You’ve got a really good point in that he at least provided something to chew on and a good way to exercise the old think-meats, even if it’s a low-impact aerobics kind of exercise. :P
PZ:
Thank you very much, that’s really appreciated.
“They were being rude, distracting, and trying to assert their dudely privilege in one of the few moments granted women during a conference dominated by men. ”
Must you exaggerate? They were making jokes to each other that they didn’t intend anyone else to hear. They weren’t asserting their privilege.
And no she should’ve just turned around and told them to stop directly. Would’ve ended the incident there, and with far less time than it takes to tweet a picture and wait for a response.
Plus I’m not sure but I think taking those photos violated the code of conduct (although I may be misreading it).
friedandburnt, take your tired shit, figure out how to click the ‘1’ on the ‘Previous 1 2 3 4’ and read. We haven’t been over this almost 2,000 times just to do it again for your benefit.
@1505
You’re asking someone to back up their opinion?
Yawn, another evidenceless apologist. Boring.
#1953
friedandburnt
When their opinion goes against facts in evidence (See previous pages), FUCK YES.
—
—
And what is with this invasion of jackwads who don’t blockquote and use the @ symbol. Do they know it’s not Twitter right? Or are they all just that dumb, like one who thought the comments were threaded?
(That “I thought the comments were threaded!” still cracks me up. How are you responding by email if you’ve never been here before? Surely they noticed when they came to sign up for email updates the way the comments were set up…..)
This thread is nearly exhausted.
Its trolls aren’t even pathetic.
The Arse Technica thread still has some life.
It’s true that that thread has Markku, who is drier than dust.
It does have JJ (John Jackson, or Jack Johnson, or somesuch), who is in a class by himself. His boasting is magnificent (ly horrendous).
An unevidence opinion can and will be *floosh* given due consideration as sewage. Your opinion is worthless.
“When their opinion goes against facts in evidence (See previous pages), FUCK YES.”
His opinion is that he handled it the wrong way.
What is the right and wrong way is entirely subjective hence asking him to back it up, is really stupid.
It would be like me asking you to back up your tastes in music and to back up that you favorite band is actually good.
Caine can you point me to a specific post?
I mean if someone already made a great argument it should be easy for you to use ctrl f and find it.
JAL:
I’m still in awe of the level of stupidity that took.
No one cares about your opinion. Once again, 1,900 comments. Go to page 1, start from the beginning. After reading, if you actually have anything cogent and relevant to say, then say it. Otherwise, you’re simply parroting the same shit we’ve heard hundreds of times already and refuted hundreds of times already.
We’ve been inundated for days on end with assholes who want nothing more than to trash Ms. Richards. It won’t catch anyone’s attention nor merit a response.
You don’t care so you wrote two paragraphs about it.
And I’m not going to go through 1900 posts trying to guess which one is the one you think will debunk what I said. Again ctrl+f.
You don’t care so you wrote two paragraphs about it.
And I’m not going to go through 1900 posts trying to guess which one is the one you think will debunk what I said.
friedandburnt,
You haven’t made a point yet. How can anyone direct you to a post which refutes a point not yet made?
You have hinted @ 1890 that you have misapprehensions about two points but even there you are ducking and weaving, quite apart from the fact that both instances of your confusion are matters of fact which were clarified long since.
Now, do you have any new facts, any hypotheses, any startling insights? If not then please stop wanking all over us. We are unimpressed.
Maureen:
To say the very least.
She should’ve just turned around and told them to be quiet that was my point.
Caine then said we’ve been over this and refuses to be specific about it.
Look, Caine’s 55, I’m 70. Do you not think that in 125 years we have tested the “ask politely” hypothesis? How stupid do you think we are? If it worked we’d be using it.
Melissa McEwan, who is also old enough to be out on her own, started a hashtag to which there’s a link here – http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/iaskedpolitely.html
Go and play there for a while and give us a break!
It does sometimes work, I’ve seen it work, so you can try that and then if it doesn’t work go to the organizers.
Maureen:
:laughs: One can hope, right? FandB is currently digging through one of Chris’s threads and the rape culture thread, saying absolutely nothing.
I’m trying to figure out if they’re worth an alert at this point.
“saying absolutely nothing. ”
Asking someone to cough up the scientific evidence they say they have is saying nothing?
Ehh whatever you seem to think assertion is proof of something.
Try reading this – http://scientopia.org/blogs/ethicsandscience/2013/03/23/naming-shaming-victim-blaming-thoughts-on-adria-richards-and-pycon/ – and, as a whole new experience try reading it for comprehension.
Caine 55, Maureen 70, me 65. So now we have a neat 190 years total. Let’s say 145 years of adulthood and late adolescence between us.
Just how many times do you really think we’ve tried the polite approach and had it cause more trouble than we started with. Add to that the times we’ve buttoned our lips because we knew we were beaten before we even tried to speak up. The number of times the polite ask + apologetic agreement + no fuss continuation scenario played out according to your prescription is a pretty small minority of all those occasions.
145 years of trying, arguing, avoiding, conceding, retreating – ha! there it is hiding in the shadows – succeeding.
In that scenario she loses nothing by trying it, even if they say no she can still tweet them to the organizers. They’re going to know who is complaining about them either way.
Hell it can even be non polite “shut up or I’ll speak to the organizers”.
Well, you’ll be going through them anyway, because you’re clearly interested in this subject and therefore, as a responsible adult, you’ll want to know what kind of discussion has gone before. So, just keep an eye out while you go through the previous pages.
I mean, it’s not as if you’re just some spoiled little brat showing up at the last minute, expecting everyone else to do your homework for you, is it? You wouldn’t show up in a discussion that’s been going on for days, telling people they’ve got it all wrong, without any sense of the history, would you?
I’m sorry but backing up your points is your homework.
You can’t just say “we have a point somewhere in those posts, we can’t tell you what it is though”.
Nobody’s forcing you to respond if you don’t want to go over it.
No, telling you where the answer to your “question” is backs up their points. You’ve been told the answer is in the previous 1900 posts on this thread. If you’re too lazy to do your own homework then don’t whine when people won’t do it for you.
Here’s a hint. Just below the last post on this page you’ll find “Previous 1 2 3 4”. Left click on “1” and start reading.
Hey, asshat who thinks he can come into a 1900 comment thread blatantly refusing to read it and demand everyone else do his reading for him:
Fuck you.
Sincerely,
Decent People Everywhere.
You’re not even telling me what I’m supposed to be looking for.
“We have a point, we swear, we can’t tell you what it is, but keep looking for it”
Yeah no, either bring up an argument or don’t bother.
Yeah no, either read the fucking thread where this was already covered ninety thousand times* or fuck off. You are not that speshul, snowflake.
Seriously, this is internets 101.
*might be slight hyperbole
@friedandburnt
You fucking child. You’re just like that creationist that demanded to see fossils of human evolution. Dawkins pointed out that the fossils were in museums. The creationist kept harping on, demanding that the fossils be presented then and there, as if Dawkins ran around with a fossil collection in his back pocket.
You know where to go. It’s in this very thread. All it requires is that you start reading. If you can’t be bothered to do that, it’s not our problem. Maybe someone will eventually take pity on you and spell it out, but don’t for a moment think that you have any right to that kind of hand-holding.
Especially since, if pointed to those arguments, you’ll probably play stupid and force us to go over them again, anyway. I mean, really, what are the odds that you’ll go: “Oh, that sounds reasonable. Sorry for the disturbance.”
We know what you are. We’ve been through this once or twice before, you know.
So you, friedandburnt, are setting how many years of active work against discrimination and harassment into the other pan of the scales? Against the 145 years we three can offer?
It doesn’t matter how many times you say that platitude. It still won’t be true. Are you even trying to grasp that because you are behaving as if, Sleeping Beauty-like, you just just woke from a 150-year sleep?
You are a parasite. You act as though it is OK for you to take over someone’s brain so that they can do your growing up for you, do the research for you, summarise all the work done on this and a dozen other blogs (and several hundred universities) then put it through the baby-blender and feed it to you one teaspoonful at a time. You also act as though other people’s time has no value beyond the fact that you can colonise it to save making any effort yourself. NO WAY!
There are dozens of links on these blogs and signposts to compendia of links in the sidebar of this one. There are blue-highlighted names you can click on to get to people’s blogs. There are key words and names you can search on google and on google scholar. There may even be a brain between your own ears.
You’ve only got me now because I’m prevaricating. My next task is to put 4 flat pieces of patched and quilted fabric together into a 3-dimensional object on a sewing machine – well within my grasp but not easy – and I keep having another coffee before I start.
You want links? I’ve already given you two links but, here, have another one – http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ – which has a date and a link for Prof McIntosh’s original essay in the first sentence and down at the bottom a link to the archive page which shows this post as beginning in 2004, which is when I first read it. It is also full of other links.
You do your own catching up, kid. We answer sensible questions here and entertain coherent hypotheses. We also recognise JAQing-off when we see it.
LykeX I have a counter to you but it’s somewhere on the internet, go find it. I can’t tell you what the point is, what it is, or how to know if you’ve found it, but I assure you it’s there.
You really don’t see the difference between not carrying fossils around and refusing to make an argument? You’re fully capable of typing out this point that you’re desperately trying to assert that you have.
The whole of the internet != this one comment thread that all of the rest of us had already read (and soe even participated in it!) and you childishly refuse to read.
The fact that you think that is at all parallel to this situation is very telling. You really have no fucking clue, do you?
We’re not talking about “somewhere on the internet”. We’re not even talking about “somewhere on this site”. We’re talking in this very thread that you’re commenting on. What you’re doing is to refuse to listen to what anyone is saying and then complaining that they haven’t explained things properly.
“The fact that you think that is at all parallel to this situation is very telling”
Can you not recognize an exaggeration? I could’ve given you a random thread of equal length, but it doesn’t matter it’s still a tactic whereby you don’t have to actually present an argument.
Oh my motherfucking god on high, do you really not understand this? This is not a random thread. It’s the goddamn thread you’re commenting on. It’s the very discussion that you’ve joined.
You’re like a person who skips the first three chapters of a book and then goes to a book reading with the author and complains that the story starts too abruptly and the characters aren’t properly introduced.
Yeah, it’s like trying to discuss Moby Dick when someone who hasn’t even moved past “Run, Jane, Run” kindergarden picture books (not because they can’t, but because they refuse to) insists on participating.
Or, you know what this reminds me of?
You know that person who’s always 15 minutes late for class at university, always arriving after all the admin stuff had been dealt with (stuff like when and where you’ll write test and about what) and the class already started, smiling a dopish smile as they slide into their seats? And then they do badly on tests and goes to academic support services to report the lecturer because the lecturer never told them that they’d also need to study X, Y and Z?
Even though the lecturer also told them: “If you’ve missed any of this vital information, you’ll find it posted on the wall outside my office,” and they never went to check.
Exactly.
Nobody is going to talk if you won’t do your homework. Typical OPINIONATED loser. Thinks their OPINION means something to other people. So not. I don’t and won’t give a shit about your unsupported opinion.
I’m cross posting this from Skeptchick:
http://boingboing.net/2013/03/26/girls-kickstarter-to-go-to-r.html
I’d like to note the parallel in the comment section about the little girl’s kickstarter program and the threats she and her mother have received and the comments being made about Adria Richards and the threats she has received. In both cases people (but mostly often men) are rushing to gloss over the horrific treatment the women involved were subjected to in order to scrutinize the behavior of those women. That’s sexism. It is so ugly and so obvious, yet the people doing it seem completely oblivious to it. To see people completely desensitized to women and girls being harassed, lied about and threatened while remaining hyper vigilant in policing the actions of the same women and girls causes my heart to sink. There is so much more cause for activism than I realized.
@fried and burnt
In that case, our homework has been done, you just haven’t bothered to read it. Read the thread before commenting; how is this hard? When you walk into a lecture late, do you ask the lecturer to start again?
Ah, I see Gen and LykeX have already used this analogy… and there was me thinking I was being original.
@friedandburnt
Oh fuck, yet another arseclown who hasn’t bothered to read up on what actually happened.
Who needs facts when you’ve got opinions.
Can we make it a rule that anyone who’d like to comment about this read a) her account, b) his apology, c) the Pycon statement, and d) the statements from both his company and her company?
Link to Geek Feminism for easy access of all of those documents.
And yes, this includes you, fried and burnt
I guess I’m confused; I apologize for my incurable maleness… I was born this way, sorry. In any case… Did she ask them to stop before she took such a public (tweet out to the whole world is, by definition, not taking the issue to the staff seeking redress) action? I ask because that’s not at all what I’ve read… and while I know I shouldn’t believe everything I read, I also have nothing else to go on, here.
The guys were absolutely being idiots doing what they were doing… no question. It’s also no question that the obscene level of attacks against her publicly is hugely inappropriate and potentially criminal (by some at least.) But seriously, this whole thing hinges in my linear testosterone-addled mind on whether or not she even tried to ask them to stop… it changes the entire narrative intensely.
I just don’t understand why the exchange wasn’t:
(inappropriate joke);
“Hey! That’s completely inappropriate.”
(blushes) “Bleep, we’re sorry…” (shuts up.);
If they hadn’t, that would make them knowingly complicit in making someone uncomfortable and she could have brought charges to the staff against them (and to higher authorities had they been less than fully cooperative.) Instead, by any well laid out account I can find, she’d already dropped a bomb on the pair, without having confronted them at all before doing so, and only ~then~ told someone on staff about it… by which time, the staff was completely out of their depth to achieve any kind of minimal damage scenario for ALL parties (including Adria) involved.
Are these accounts wrong? If not, then they make an idiotic mistake, she did something calculably wrong, and the community attacking her is doing something nigh on criminal (threats, etc.) If someone has been dishonest in their accounts then were all at a loss to ever know the actual truth (since there’s no video recording forthcoming it seems) and PyCon’s code of conduct is more needed than ever, in spite of the backlash against they who are the only party to have even TRIED to do the right thing here.
Sorry… I’m just bothered by the whole thing. Faith in humanity is fading
Joshua, this thread is over 1900 posts long. There is a spinoff thread that is over 1500 posts.
Go read those posts, because your comments have been made and addressed over and over and over and over…
No, she didn’t. Your thinking she did doesn’t mean that any such calculation is correct or applicable. Have you read the thousands of comments of this so far? Because it’s been made more than clear that having direct evidence is crucial, often indispensable, to a woman getting any kind of recognition of a wrong done. Much less actual rectification.
Except the nearly 2,000 comments in the thread before yours, at least 300 of which answer your precise question.
Joshua:
This was covered in the article linked from the OP. Often, when women politely ask males to cease inappropriate behavior, they are treated … well, let’s just say poorly. Adria Richards had apparently done exactly that earlier in the day to another attendee, and was treated, well, poorly. So instead of making a scene during an actual talk, she decided on the action she took.
But y’know what? None of that matters. What you are doing here is attempting to make this about her actions, and not the actions that precipitated the whole event — the poor judgement of the men. The problem wasn’t her actions (which is exactly what the linked article discusses).
So, yes, you do have a lot more to go on. You could’ve read the linked article, for starters.
This is all exactly true, except the part I’ve bolded. There are reasons she did exactly what she did, the way she did it. All she expected was the PyCon staff to talk to the people involved. There was no way she could’ve predicted one of the might get fired (and there’s nothing indicating this was the sole reason he was fired).
So, no, she didn’t do anything calculably wrong. She did was she determined was the best possible option under the circumstances.
Followup:
Sorry, Joshua, I thought this was a different thread on this same subject. The article I mentioned can be found in this thread.
But as Chris Clarke points out, it’s not like your very questions have never been asked and answered in this and other threads.
Being treated poorly is absolutely justification for going to the authorities is precisely the sort of thing you go to the staff and or higher authorities with, though… that constitutes harassment. So, by your description, an actual harasser from earlier walked while two guys never asked to stop get the axe. Unless I’m misreading you.
As a fellow male, your failure to do you homework and read the 3600+ posts on both threads to date before putting out and ill-informed and unevidenced OPINION disgusts me. That isn’t male. That is ego. That is you being too damn important to actually behave as decent human and get the facts before shooting off your mouth. READ BEFORE POSTING AGAIN.
JT, your uninformed and fuckwitted OPINION is *floosh* sent to sewage where it belongs. You mature and do your homework. Then you might have an informed opinion that someone else hasn’t express fifty times before. Quit boring us with your drivel.
I have been, though, and from not just this (admittedly overwhelming and full of contradicting information) source. And so far it appears lopsided on the side of her not having asked them to stop. And thats crux.
Why? Why do you believe she owes them any smidgeon of politeness, when they were so very rude to her? Despite the fact that it simply doesn’t work to be polite, she shouldn’t HAVE to be the “lesser” and just “take the punch for the team” and try to “be nice” first.
There’s a great post earlier about how much you can tell about who’s got the power if you look at who must be polite to whom, regardless of what the whom did.
So why?
Joshua Turcotte
This is a really stupid comment of the well-poisoning variety. Nobody here thinks that there is anything wrong with being male, and a large percentage of the horde is in fact ..male.
Unless of course you are going to use your gender as an excuse to act like an asshole by claiming that having a Y chromosome makes men incapable of being decent people. We will have a large problem with you if you continue to do that.
You know what would be an even better scenario? If the two men in question had not made any jokes at all as appropriate for a professional conference.
It is not Adria’s job to teach manners 101 to dudebros who are being aggressive towards her.
Joshua Turcotte,
The comment immediately above your first urges people to read the relevant documents before they start making pronouncements. Clearly, you didn’t read that comment and it looks as though you did not read any of the now 4 OPs on this blog, any of several thousand comments or any of the documents and accounts linked in them.
No! You’re a bloke so you can just open any orifice at random and let whatever will flow from it.
And you expect to be taken seriously? Not here, matey!
It’s interesting to me how the sentiment: “I don’t understand, it might be because I have a privilege-induced blind spot in this case.” so easily gets twisted into “I’m so sorry I’m privileged, and you’re wrong, and you’re going to accuse me of wrongness because of my privilege.” It’s…obnoxiously preemptive. (Oh wait, that’s what ‘poisoning the well’ means, isn’t it?)
Joshua
Please do your readings before you attempt to continue in this discussion.
She and one of the dudes were fired.
The other one is still a “valued employee”
Joshua Turcotte:
This is a public place. You’re being asked to stop propping up the social framework on which sexual harassment rests. You’re being asked to stop insinuating that the victim of a massive campaign of harassment brought it on herself.
Are you stopping? Because we’re asking you to stop. Is it working?
A little kid wandering into a movie? Somebody out of their element?
Why? I guess because everyone owes everyone else a chance to redeem themselves… or at least have a fair trial prior to prosecution, much less execution. None of us are purely rational creatures and I can fully understand having a terrible day and lashing out at someone in anger (who is otherwise merely being an annoyance) without even intending to… and then immediately feeling bad for having done it… often presciently to the point where I under-react and just ‘let it go’ by ignoring it outright.
You are right; the best possible scenario was that the two guys had been polite and listened to the lightning talk and had a better sense of appropriateness and contextuality. The next best possible outcome, though, would have been if they’d been confronted and asked to stop (and presumably, possibly in err, had done so.) And absolutely can be no justification for the level of vitriol leveled against her in the aftermath, since even if she did lash out against the wrong people for a minor crime, that is not worthy of massive over-reaction either.
No one, woman or man, should have to be afraid to confront someone else who is harming or offending them… but yes, I also think everyone deserves equal access to remedial opportunity as well. Which goes right back to the original and (despite people insisting it has been, unanswered) question… that that happen. By her own words, it doesn’t seem that way.
Here’s the thing, Joshua.
In a perfect society, Ms. Richards would have felt 100% comfortable with saying “Dude, not cool” to the guy’s face, and feeling that he would have accepted her criticism and stopped making those jokes.
But.
Ms. Richards is not a naive child. She is aware of the all-to-frequent effect of a woman saying that to a man in regard to a man making sexual comments.
Maybe mr-hank would have accepted her criticism graciously and everyone would have gone on to be best friends forever.
But that did not happen.
Want to be angry?
Be angry at those other men, who taught her that saying “not cool” to his face wouldn’t work, and would just get her called a bitch.
Also, the next time you hear a man making comments like that, object. Seriously.
I realize, I’ve no proof it this, but I have… I hate body humor and sexual humor. Not enough, but maybe 1 times in 4 (the other 3, I just leave, since I have a sense of, well, I can’t control other people) I let it be known that it bothers me… but maybe it’s just because I’m male and people are inherently sexist, respect me inappropriate more, but they’ve always stopped… and so maybe my impression is colored by that experience.
But there is an unfortunate mirroring effect here… if, as you say, women can and do just presume that they can’t stand up to or otherwise reason with a man, then inevitably men will be taught to inherently distrust women. There are no winners in these kind of scenarios. General insensitivity is not intrinsically male, but instead intrinsically extroverted. I’ve heard insensitive wisecracking from women not-quite-almost as much as from men (but not that far behind)… and to be self-incriminatingly honest about it, I am more afraid to tell them to stop than I am to tell a man to stop in part because I perceive men (while stupid) as more predictable in their response to me (and I’ve no reason to be afraid of them.) Sure I feel bad about that, but is saying it’s okay to skip every ideal step toward attempted resolution a rational price to pay?
Btw, apologies for all my typos… I think faster than I type.
Actually, allow me to rephrase a bit;
How does not being naive and skipping the most immediate and least expensive steps of conflict resolution help anyone, man or woman, bridge this divide?
So, if men are taught (by society) that women are hypersensitive ball-busting bitches who make mountains out of molehills, and women hesitate to complain one-on-one about men’s behavior (lest they be ignored on the grounds that it was nothing) – preferring instead to gather lots of evidence and complain loudly, and get labelled hypersensitive ball-busting bitches making mountains out of molehills, and men learn that women are hypersensitive ball-busting bitches as a result…?
Does the phrase self-fulfilling prophecy come to mind?
Also, how to help fix the problem?
Maybe teach women that if they raise a valid concern privately, that this will accomplish something? Maybe then they won’t think that public shaming is the only thing that will work?
How do you teach women this? Well, by changing the culture to one where a woman who raises a valid concern privately gets a fair hearing and reply, not “get over it, bitch.”
How does being a privileged blind male make you have an accurrate OPINION on how women deal with real world situtations. Your privilege is showing. Shut the fuck up and listen. But then, you aren’t mature enough to listen to anything other than your own ravings, pretending to be thoughtful *snicker* opinion.
It’s certainly appropriate; a downward spiral yin-yang instead of an upward one. In the end, though, it comes right back to both parties having misstepped. I’m really striving for the upward one, but I’m not getting it here and I only just not saw someone (sorry, the way this site bounces around doesn’t make every reply obvious) quite explicitly ask me to leave… which is too akin to what I’ve been arguing should have been done in the debated event. Might as well act on that and acquiesce. If anyone actually ~wants~ to try to debate this elsehwere, my only-just-joined level of credentials are plastered all over this thread now. I’ll make an honest effort of it anyways.
Joshua:
You’ve highlighted and acknowledged that asking politely works for you because you’re a man. I’m asking you politely to shut the fuck up and listen. Please.
No, you’ll pontificate and won’t do what you need to do. Shut the fuck up and listen to what the women tell you about such situations. Which is why your OPINION is *floosh* treated as sewage to be detoxified.
Fine. You want to break the cycle. Great!
Blaming the person with less social authority and support is a crappy way to do that.
The effect of doing so is not “dudes, don’t be sexist asshats,” but “women, don’t complain.”
See how that’s different?
Nothing good comes from an opening like this.
Portia:
Hell, I’m a man, #IAskedPolitely for Joshua to cut it out, and he didn’t even bother to fucking answer. Just plowed right on with his victim blaming.
Chris:
You mean, some people are just intentionally obtuse and lacking in empathy or compassion to the extent that they ignore the harm they’re doing til they’re drawn up short and confronted aggressively?!
What world is this you’re describing, it sounds familiar…
Joshua,
Please read this excellent piece and the comments – http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/12/29/why-yes-but-is-the-wrong-response-to-misogyny/
Then, please, look again at what Chris Clark said @ 1953 and at what nightshadequeen has had to say twice already and at what Esteleth has said.
Now, would you be good enough examine everything you have written in the light of all that?
Thank you.
Joshua Turcotte @1962
Only one party misstepped. The two dudebros who kept making sexual innuendos misstepped. The woman who complained to the proper authorities did NOTHING WRONG!
Go read the preceding 1900 or so posts on this thread. Then you’ll know that, as the thread title proclaims, Adria Richards did everything exactly right. Until you’ve done your homework, you don’t get to pontificate on things which have already been answered and explained on this very thread.
@Joshua Turcotte
Why don’t you take your fake outrage and shove it where it belongs. From this, your first sentence, I immediately suspect that you’re just another full of shit MRA asshole, trying out a new strategy.
For the record, many of us are men. We seem to be getting the point just fine, and we’re not ostracized or vilified. The issue here is not that you’re a man, but being a man, your past experiences might be colored in such a way that you have to work a little harder to understand the concerns of women. Rather than getting upset over this fact of life, you should recognize it and deal with it.
So, why are we discussing her behavior? Your focus shows your real intent, perhaps even more than you realize. Go read this and in general: talk less, listen more.
LykeX:
<snark>But shouldn’t the women have to deal with it, too? Why is it always the menz that have to work at understanding?</snark>
Oh. I think I just made myself sick.
Have some grog to settle your stomach.
Nerd of Redhead:
Don’t mind if I do. It’s kind of necessary after the last couple of days, innit?
I used to think diamonds were the hardest naturally-occurring mineral on earth. My teachers were way wrong. Turns out it’s the heads of MRAs.
Snarkiness aside, there’s an important point hiding underneath there. Women do have to work at it. Women work harder than any man, every day of their lives. Much of the victim-blaming ties back into “she should have understood men well enough to know that she should have done/not have done X.”
Women are expected to know what kind of behavior, words, clothing, makeup, hairstyle and locations might trigger a man to attack her. If she fails at this, she will be blamed for the attack. Even if people recognize that the man did wrong, they’ll often just add in that little “…but she should have know that X wasn’t a good idea.”
Women are expected to be able to do this, perfectly, at a moment’s notice, every second of their lives. Fail once and people will call you a stupid slut as they dump your body in the ground. Look at the Steubenville case. This girl’s rape was caught on video tape. By her rapists. There’s simply no doubt in the world about what happened and who’s to blame, yet still people are trying to turn it back on her. Because she was drinking. She should have know that if you start drinking, people will take advantage of you.
I’m sure you’ve heard the ones arguing that “She must have wanted it because otherwise, she wouldn’t have been with those boys in the first place.” That argument only makes sense (to the degree it makes any) if you assume that she had a perfect understanding of how those boys would act in that situation. She’s being slut-shamed for her grievous crime of not being able to predict that her school mates were rapist scum, only looking for an excuse.
In comparison, I think the request that we guys take a minute or two out of our busy schedules to listen to what women have to say is quite small indeed.
LykeX @ 1975, that was a sterling post, and among so very many outstanding posts recently, yours is being bookmarked for a molly nom. Thank you.
Joshua Turcotte mansplained thusly;
Stop equating sexual harassment with interpersonal conflict.
Documenting the harassers and reporting them is in no way naive, and your insistence on blaming Adria Richards for the incident shows just how much you view the world through male-privilege tinted glasses.
I suggest you spend more time educating yourself, and less typing thoughtless opinions.
Well, gee. Thanks, Caine. Coming from you, that means a lot.
LykeX @1975 – Excellent post. Thank you.
Well, at least we have here an open acknowledgement that the way women have to negotiate professional and social interactions is not fair.
You’re absolutely right. No one should have to be afraid of speaking directly and plainly, even politely, when other people’s behaviour is inappropriate or downright annoying. If you’ve read the rest of the 3000+ (have we hit 4000 yet?) comments on these 3 relevant threads, you’ll have noticed that several of us have commented on the unlikelihood of the “Oh, OK. I’ll stop now” response.
Though, it is ok for her to make dick jokes…
http://i.imgur.com/EDlyky3.jpg
eraserheaddf @1981
Your complaint has already been answered on this thread. Do some reading before you do the tu quoque accusations.
#1981Another dumbshit MRA apologist unable to read the comments prior to an inane and irrelevant post. Who gives a shit about uninformed opinions. Learn, then post.
I read till about halfway through page 2 of the comments before I became too exasperated to continue, so apologies if this has already been said, but here goes:
No, Adria didn’t “do everything exactly right”. Nobody does everything right; not me, not Adria, not PZ, not anyone. That’s part of what makes us human. Maybe she should have talked to the guys directly, maybe not. Maybe she misunderstood their comments, maybe she didn’t. I can’t say for sure, because I wasn’t there. What I can say for sure is that none of that matters. What matters here is that the response she got was completely disproportionate to even the least charitable interpretation of her actions. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that none of their remarks were sexist at all, and that there was no reason for her to post their picture in the first place. That doesn’t justify rape and death threats. If the only fallout from this event had been the guy getting fired and the Internet Hate Machine hadn’t gotten involved, then centering the discussion around whether publicly calling the guys out was the right way to handle the situation would make perfect sense. As it stands, it feels like arguing about whether the cellist of Sarajevo was playing off-key.