A Christian prayer group really doesn’t like the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.
Now for our prayer, we pray that the women who work in your MFRR and the women in your family will befall fast moving breast cancer which can not everbe cured. We pray this for Leah Bruton, and Becki Miller, Patricia Corigan, Chris Rodda, Edie Disler, Vicky Garrison, Kristin Leslie, Melinda Moeton and Joan Slish. And you evil clan too, we pray this for Bonnie Wiensten and Amanda and Amber Wienstein and the woman lawyers Cariline Mitchel and Katherin Ritchy and all women of all who work at with for Military Freedom Against Religon Foundation.
The women targeted have nothing to worry about — you can’t get much more ineffective than sitting around wishing a nonexistent ghost would afflict your enemies — but the sad thing is that the women in this prayer group really believe in the efficacy of their magic incantation, and honestly want other women to suffer horribly from a painful, disfiguring, and life-threatening disease.
You shall know them by their love. Their blind, hateful, petty love.
Ah, xian luuuuurve.
Nothing quite like it.
If we we as loving and compassionate as they are, we’d wish all of them would try to cure their cancers with prayer only.
*Sigh*
Would that prayer was the only hateful act these asswipes ever perpetrated.
Ah, I just loves me some imprecatory prayer. It shows the true love of the Christian far better than anything else.
Could they be sued for attempted murder? They believe that prayer actually works. They honestly believe (or claim they honestly believe) that their prayers will be answered and their gods will smite these sinners with a deadly disease. So, do the courts assume that prayer does not work, in which case there is no case? or does the law assume that prayer does work, in which case this really does sound like attempted murder?
Asshats, the lot of them.
Ah, look – a perfect example of the wonderful moral guidance the bible provides and the great love of neighbour and brother Dano the Fuckwit keeps telling us about.
Do these “people” really expect God to obey them?
“Ah, xian luuuuurve.
Nothing quite like it.”
But there are plenty of things like it! We just usually refer to it with… different terminology. At any rate we can be glad that these sociopaths are choosing to wave their hands at the sky instead of doing something actively harmful (other than writing nasty hate filled letters of course). Christianity… the great sociopath incapacitator (occasionally)?
Wow, they’re really going Old Testament on their enemies, aren’t they. None of that smiting the first born male child stuff however. They’re looking to wipe out whole generations of women with nasty diseases.
I wonder what they tell their children.
Holy shit. I’ve never actually seen a group be this blatant and direct. You, named personally, to die of this specific disease. I agree; this is a death threat, and if it isn’t, then let them back down in court and say under oath that they don’t believe that their God answers prayer.
Imprecatory prayer or voodoo dolls?
Toe-may-to or toe-mah-to?
Carlie:
I would actually find the money to pay to see that. Yes, I would.
Could they be sued for attempted murder? They believe that prayer actually works.
It’d be like that apocryphal Texas bar story: the legal strategy would pit atheists claiming potential injury from effective prayer and a bunch of Baptists swearing it’s worthless.
http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/prayer.asp
I already said this on TWiCN, but why breast cancer? Why not pancreatic or kidney or something (nearly) inevitably deadly? Probably because they want to make it clear that they’re specifically targeting women. Including uninvolved women (i.e. “the women in your family”.) Christian love, indeed.
Aw, how sweet of them. All that love and compassion makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Dianne:
Because that wouldn’t drive home that these are evil, atheist women. Women who have the nerve to use their brains and raise their voices. They aren’t doing godly works, like being submissive and breeding and running roughshod over the other women in the church/community.
It was either breast cancer or praying for their “wombs” to fall out, but the latter wouldn’t kill them. Also, breast cancer is much in the public eye.
Matt. 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Yet another of Jesus’ instructions thrown out the window. It is very clear that Christians do not believe the Bible any more than we atheists do.
What despicable wastes of DNA.
I have been a fan of Bloom County since it was available in the newspapers. One excellent story line involves everyone becoming born again. And one of the evils they attempt to stamp out is Penguin Lust! Which, of course, leades to one of the characters (don’t recall which) saying to Opus, “The bible tells us to love the sinner and hate the sin. And we do love you. Specifically, we would love you to leave.”
These asshats think they are praying for these women. Because they know that there are no true atheists, only people angry with gods. They figure that, faced with inoperable breast cancer, the women will return to the fold, be born again, and rise to heaven. And those who don’t will go to hell, but that’s what they deserve anyway. They are praying for the women. Not in a way that is moral or decent to most of the world, but they are praying for them.
So very many examples of xtian love, like this one. So hard to pick and choose the best example…
@silverbuttons:
See also Matt. 7:20 “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
In the exceedingly unlikely event that I ever have my own religion and my own holy book of scripture, I’d like to imagine it might include something along the lines of this:
It was either breast cancer or praying for their “wombs” to fall out, but the latter wouldn’t kill them.
Well, ok, but what about ovarian? It’s much deadlier than breast and, unlike breast, men don’t get it at all. Or even cervical or uterine.
Yes, I suppose it’s a little odd of me to be worrying about this, but it’s not like I’m going to stay up nights worrying that the prayer might be effective.
The only ill that I will wish these people is that they are actually obeying commandments and are loving themselves as they love others.
Oh yeah, it’s a total surprise she hung up on someone making threats (no matter how far-fetched) and spouting all kinds of hateful shit at her. And she was rude!
*faints*
Funding the lawsuit? Count me in. They can’t have it both ways.
Dianne:
Ah, but ovaries and cervixes (?) and uteruses aren’t visible. Breastes, however, are and those evil, godless wimmins don’t use them for the right purpose, why they don’t even hide them in properly modest clothing! The horror!
Is “witchcraft” still illegal? ;)
What a weird, twisted reasoning.
If I believed in god(s) and thought getting sick like that was some kind of punishment from it, I would despise and hate it for all eternity, and fuck that hell place. Spending eternity with such a disgusting asshole is already my idea of hell.
But PZ, the prayer group has a 100%* success rate, see:
*Success rate may be subject to cognitive bias.
really nothing amusing or funny about the frame of mind it would take to create this Prayer.
at best it sounds as though desperation has set-in at this “women’s prayer group”.
Could be a poe but is still quit believable coming from a christian group.
If there was some way to get the “prayer” into criminal or civil court would be interesting to see the outcome. Provided the court was reasonable. so many judges these days are part of a prayer group too!
Caine’s got it exactly:
Ovaries simply go about doing the proper duty god ascribed to them: creating tiny, unicellular, haploid human beings!
It’s those dirty breasts that go around violating all the laws of gods and nature by attracting sexual attention when they should be fulfilling their natural function: serving as a convenient way to partially support the bottle of formula when you’re feeding your baby and the phone rings.
I do not know that this is their reason for doing it. This was the explanation given to me by a fundogelical dominionist as to why imprecatory prayer was acceptable. Enough pain, enough horrible things happening, enough stress, and the god haters would return to the fold. Again, I don’t know that this is the goal of this preyer group, but it fits.
You don’t need to believe in prayer or a super being for it to have an effect. If a large group of atheists and non-theist offered a group “prayer” to the lord Satan asking him to work extra hard to corrupt the souls of those good loving Christians, they would spend a lot more of their time looking over their shoulders trying to figure out if that is sulfur they smell. That should keep them busy for a while. It would at least require a press release sent to their church to advise them of the Atheist love that’s on its way.
“Well, ok, but what about ovarian? It’s much deadlier than breast and, unlike breast, men don’t get it at all. Or even cervical or uterine.”
I’d be willing to bet they don’t have enough education to know how to spell ovary, cervix, or uterus, much less what they are and whether or not men have them also. And OBVIOUSLY only women get breast cancer becuz only wimen have evil bits.
Caine and Crip: I suppose that makes as much sense as any of this does…I think you must be right about the symbolism of breasts and the desire for visible mutilation of their enemies. Very traditionally Christian.
Crip Dyke:
:Snorts: That’s actually how it was when I was born, in late ’57. Breast feeding was frowned upon at the time, bottle feeding was considered to be much more superior.
Ogvorbis –
It was Hodge Podge, the rabbit that always hung out with Portnoy.
I remember that one, as well. Oral Bill, played by Bill the Cat, had recently come off of his high and mighty role playing ‘Electric Tongue’ for “Billy and the Boingers”, nee “DeathTongue.” He had faded out of the limelight after being caught in a prayer session with a popular nun, and reinvented himself as a televangelist to swipe money from the gullible masses. And everyone copied his hairstyle (except Milo and Binkley) for a while.
Ah, yes. The reference to the long-eared and the short-eared. In other words, the righteous and the unwashed heathens!
I wonder if they’d be interested in joining my Interfaith Service Group…
That is so “jesus-like” of them. Hypocritical jackasses. Seriously though–people wonder why I have something against Christianity? I mean, does any body other than atheists like us pay attention to this kind of shit? The level of nonsense that spews forth from Christianity alone in this country on a daily basis is mind-numbing…
This sounds just like some of the prayers I heard from some of the fundies I knew back when I was among their numbers.
Thank God I don’t believe in him anymore.
These people make me sick. I bet they go on about how “Christianity” is all about love and forgiveness elsewhere but their actions as usual speak louder than words.
I found the recent Global Atheist Convention in Melbourne similar. The Christians said they were going to come along and peacefully talk to atheists about why we were wrong but all we got was a bunch of sanctimonious loons yelling through a bullhorn (or singing annoyingly) not to mention the Muslims who were distinctly venomous yelling burn in hell. If anyone hasn’t seen either there are plenty of videos on YouTube.
Although PZ and others here have opened my eyes to the true face and danger of religion over the last couple of years, the performance of these religious groups at GAC brought it home ( and I know their behavior was tame compared to what has been seen elsewhere). They fill me with rage – but rather than let it burn me up I use it as a reminder of how truly evil religion can be, and that by not standing up to it, that even the kinder, compassionate Christians are enabling their nastier brethren.
Exactly. They’re the sort of people who have to specify “the woman lawyers Cariline Mitchel and Katherin Ritchy.” Because their first names and the fact that the whole thing’s about women don’t establish that. Not legitimate lawyers – woman lawyers.
Couldn’t you charge them with attempted murder? After all it is not whether the attempt is successful or has any chance of success, it is the intent. Then we could hear them cry that prayer isn’t effective as their defense.
Randomfactor #11 (hmmm sounds like the name of a filk album)
I have to disagree slightly. What matters is what the attacker believes. I heard of a court case where a business man shot his partner in the back through an office chair. But it turned out the victim had just died from a heart attack so the man shot a corspe. Since the man thought he was actually killing someone, he was convicted of attempted murder.
But that’s with an actual weapon.
This would be more like a man who’s told his toy Spaceman Spiff ray gun has a real gun inside that shoots real bullets (the 50’s sci-fi ray gun is just a disguise). So he goes up to his ex-boss and shoots the ray gun at him. Nothing happens. Now it’s obvious to everyone else the ray gun is a toy and doesn’t work, but the man thought for sure he was going to kill someone. Would he be guilty of attempted murder?
Seems to me that prayer directed toward harm is a form of witchcraft, punishable in the usual fashion. And to Ogvorbis above, did you deliberately misspell prayer and “preyer”? Because this shit is a lot closer to preying than it is praying.
Had any of their targets ever got breast cancer, would they be hold liable for Homicide / Intentional Assault?
Weinstein actually took someone else doing this bizarre stuff to court on the grounds that the hater’s wide distribution of his “imprecatory prayers” motivated vandalism and threats that caused actually damages. The Judge ruled that he hadn’t proven his case. Appeal is likely.
http://wilmingtonfavs.com/2012/04/09/praying-for-god-to-hurt-someone-is-not-illegal-judge-rules/
Janstince #35
I remember that. That storyline was one of the first things that turned me away from religion. After Oral Bill is caught doing something unwholesome he tells his flock “God has forgiven me, why can’t you?” and a family watching on TV says, “He has a point. Dear, send him Billy’s college fund.” And I thought how stupid and wrong they were to do that. Of course I was pretty young at the time and thought there were people who actually did that. (Only to find out later things like that happened, just not that often.)
Randomfactor #11:
Exactly what I thought, too.
I wish I’d kept the address of that self-satisfied Christian blogger who told me that no Christian ever wished ill on atheists.
…or threatened them. Or gloated over their future afterlife in Hell.
It’s actually worse than a death threat – they’ve actively tried to “hire” a hit man to kill someone for them. I think that carries more severe punishment.
This is exceptionally disgusting, and I thought I was pretty jaded on the subject.
YellowSubmarine:
You beat me to it. I think the email proves it. Though to be serious I do agree with Caine, SC, etc. about the misogyny.
Nah, they’re much more progressive now. No more hurting men, women only.
From beatrice’s link:
So, the atheist was rude, but wishing her to suffer horrible and die slowly is perfectly acceptable.
Good thing my irony-meter is already broken.
As ever, immune to irony. Hard to believe they call another group evil while they themselves are doing an evil deed (attempting to do bodily harm to someone else).
It is pretty pathetic though isn’t it? If this is the best that they can do against us then we are laughing.
stonyground:
I wouldn’t get too comfortable. This sort of thinking is dangerous. It’s why a number of doctors ended up murdered.
Praying for harm may not be illegal but surely hate speech that motivates others to harm is–and that’s what we’re seeing.
I like the idea of arresting for trying to interest a “hit man” into killing their enemies. That the “hit man” doesn’t exist is no different than when someone tries to hire a “hit man” online when there’s only a policeman on the other end.
@57 –
It’s not criminal, but it can be the basis for a civil lawsuit. There’s been more than one successful one on that basis.
@ Katherine #27
I thought that too, so did a quick bit of research, turns out about 12% of women in the USA get breast cancer at some point in their lives. These lovely examples of the evil of religion have named 14 women by name, and many others through association. How many of this group would have to contract breast cancer to vindicate their claim of a perfect record of prayer answering do you think?
“We prayed for 800 women to get breast cancer and 100 did, fear our evil, vengeful god!”
Brother Ogvorbis@30: If “preyer group” was a typo, I think it might be the most fortuitous accident I’ve ever seen.
Thanks @46 crowepps
As evil (mean?) as it is to wish others ill, the real impact is the climate it sets. It telegraphs to violent folks that they might not get punished or that it’s not wrongful to go out and target people with real physical actions and words. The abortion provider murderers and the bullies at that school in MN both came from local groups with this degree and flavor of derangement.
These hateful idiots are so impressed by Luke 9:1 that they mentioned it twice, though didn’t quote it. In Luke 9:1, Jebus gives his posse the magic power to heal the sick, and sends them out to do good. Four verses further on, he says: And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. Nothing about smiting boobies as punishment. Of all the hateful passages they could have chosen from the bible, why this? Other than that it suggests that they are no ordinary Christians, but Jebus’s closest acolytes with magical powers. The sin of pride…
Janstince:
I think you’re missing some umlauts there, if I remember correctly.
You know, sometimes it strikes me that belief-induced terrorism stems from the perpetrator’s observation that actually praying for someone to die doesn’t work.
Unfortunately, their conclusion usually isn’t “God doesn’t exist”, or “God disagrees” or “God has different plans” or even “God wasn’t listening” but, somehow, that “God wants me to take care of it”.
By the way, can you be found guilty of attempted murder by asking a hitman to kill someone, even if your hitman doesn’t actually exist?
(in case someone else already noticed this, but I read the comments sloppily, sorry)
Well, I thought this rude Mickey is a woman with a male-sounding name. But then I realized she’s not listed as one of those who should get breast cancer. So basically, the main “offender” gets no punishment, all the women working with him (and women in their families) get the punishment.
I mean, the whole shit was already misogynistic as hell, but this just brings it to a whole nother level.
(And yes, I know men can get breast cancer too. I doubt the prayer circle knows it, though.)
Also, Mickey Wienstien is actually Mikey Weinstein. These geniuses didn’t even manage to spell his name properly.
source
I think it’s impossible to get a fair trial on something like this since the courts are manifest churches – at the center of which are sin, guilt, Judge, atone. Courtrooms even look like sanctuaries, pews, alters, robes, scribes, swearing on bibles, all rise, etc, etc…(big fukken sigh)
Breasts are sexy, at least if you’re a straight American man. Ovaries and cervixes and uteri are for baby-making, which is entirely unrelated to sex. Breasts have nothing to do with babies either–their only purpose is to entertain boys and men. All women are either mothers or whores, and whores are just walking breasts and vaginas and booties and vaginal cancer is actually just skin cancer anyhow. Also actual anal cancer? Only gay men get that.
I really hope this is just a Poe, and if not, just a random mean nutter.
All hail Tpyos. Sometimes my tpyos are amazingly apropopos. No, that was not intentional.
I knew a kid who lost all of his college savings that way. I think it was the Bakers who got it. And this was his savings account (with a parental cosigner because kids are not trustworthy) containing money he had earned buying calves and piglets and selling slaughterable hogs and steers. To the tune of about $40,000.
Mine broke over on TET.
Yes, it was a tpyo. Ranks up there with ‘strumpet solo.’
I think there is a special term for metal band umlauts.
And that is the scariest part. How many murders have been committed by someone who honestly believes that they are gods chosen instrument to carry out gods’ special plans?
Yes, it brings it to the Christian Love level.
Needless to say this is just witchcraft.
Begging or commanding a powerful supernatural being to do your will or fulfill your desires.
There is no difference between xianity and any primitive superstition.
PS And they aren’t doing it quite optimally. I think you are supposed to sacrifice a chicken or stick pins in a doll or something.
Has the term “Natural Disasters” replaced “Acts of God” in the legal lexicon?
I think there is a special term for metal band umlauts.
The umlauts are silent.
Each new display of xtian “love” gives me hope that more and more good people will walk away from xtianity. Xtians are the best advertisement for atheism.
You guys realize it could be a poe right? Some unsourced email claiming to be from a group of Christians that are praying for people to get cancer….seems fake.
Also, the focus on these “petty hateful” christians seems misplaced, since it’s definitely not the kind of prayers any christians I know would say.
Of course, I don’t live in the bible belt, maybe it’s worse there than I realize.
I think Brother Og got it right. The nasty creatures want to scare women. Pity a religon that only has fear and greed to motivate its followers.
As despicable as the prayer is, what’ worse is their open identification of the US military with Jeebus. The combination of militarism and religious fundamentalism in this country is truly scary.
It’s not at all misplaced. You don’t seem to know many Xians or know much about Xianity. The fuzzy wuzzy Jesus is luv types are a tiny minority.
@ Philisyssis, we would hope that it was a fake email but unfortunately Christians have repeatedly done similar things and with plenty of evidence to demonstrate it. There is no good reason not to think these women are the good Christiasn they claim to be.
philisyssis:
You realize the only way it could be a Poe is if it’s indistinguishable from the real thing. It is frighteningly realistic. Although I don’t believe everything I read on the internet – in fact, I’m quite careful about what I’m willing to believe – if this is a true Poe, it wouldn’t matter, because that would mean by definition that Xians are doing this all the time.
The real concern is that it is a non-Poe hoax, something that we should be able to tell can’t come from Xians, but failed to do so. Given the incredible list of horrible acts by Xians and a long tradition of asking the tetragrammaton for vengeance (going back before Xianity existed), arguing this is a non-Poe hoax seems quite the Sisyphian task.
dianne:
If only the bands were.
If you don’t know any of that kind, then they must not exist!
Or… maybe every time you hear about some despicable piece of shit like this group, you dismiss it as a fake.
Not to mention that even vanilla Christians can be pretty harsh with their prayers and condemnations. They may not actively pray for someone’s illness or destruction, but they will gleefully say that the person “got what they deserve” if any misfortune strikes them. Since prayer works about as well as wishing on falling star, I don’t see much difference between wanting something bad to happen to someone or keeping quiet but then getting all smug over every bit of bad that happens to that person.
Also, the focus on these “petty hateful” christians seems misplaced, since it’s definitely not the kind of prayers any christians I know would say.
The Muslims I know don’t go around running planes into buildings, but that doesn’t mean no Muslim has ever run a plane into a building. Just because the Christians you know don’t pray for people to get breast cancer doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Beatrice:
Being tortured in hell for eternity gets mentioned a lot as well. Our resident godbots demonstrate that well enough.
Dianne:
All of the Christian anti-abortion crowd didn’t pull a gun and murder doctors or bomb clinics, however, enough of them did and their actions were supported and condoned by all the “good” Christians.
Also, as I said previously, this sort of thinking is dangerous. There’s always a theist somewhere who is willing to do “God’s work”.
Ovaries are on the inside. Godly men don’t allow themselves to learn anything about the insides of women’s bodies. Breasts are on the outside, everyone knows what they are, and godly men have thousands of pictures of them on their computer hard drives.
And given how few people know that men can get breast cancer, I wouldn’t expect these fundies to be aware of that fact.
Of course, that one too.
Although, I don’t hear that all that often over here, so that’s why earthly punishments came to mind first. People love to gloat over lost jobs, illnesses, broken relationships, etc. as God’s punishment. Must be because it’s more satisfying to see what they like to think of as God’s work right now, instead of waiting for death. I think you can only still hear very old people threatening with fire and brimstone.
All of the Christian anti-abortion crowd didn’t pull a gun and murder doctors or bomb clinics, however, enough of them did and their actions were supported and condoned by all the “good” Christians.
Exactly the point. I was responding to a poster who was (IMHO) making a “no true Scotsman” argument, saying that the Christians s/he knew didn’t pray for people to get breast cancer, therefore the person or people who made the threat to MRFF probably weren’t Christians. I was trying to point out that just because some, most or even the vast majority of people of religion X wouldn’t do horrible thing Y doesn’t mean that none would.
I’m tired and apparently didn’t convey this idea very well.
People love to gloat over lost jobs, illnesses, broken relationships, etc. as God’s punishment.
Except, of course, when it happens to the “godly”. Then it’s god’s test of faith.
@alverant #43:
Strictly speaking he might be guilty, but I strongly doubt that he would be convicted. Any witness would only see him fire the toy ray gun, and examination of the ray gun would show that there was no actual gun hidden inside. So, quite a bit like prayer and God.
Maggie #79 –
So. Much. Awesome.
This coming from a fan of the Blue Clam Cult (of Buffy fame). I’m not a fan of them because they’re great, btw. I’m also a fan of REO Speedwagon and Neil Diamond: sometimes what your older sister or parents play when you’re a young child just sticks with you. Like epoxy.
@Caine
Yes I know plenty about christianity. I was a christian till my mid 20s, my dad is a pastor, I went to bible college, and I even still sometimes go to church.
@Crip Dyke, that’s a good point you’ve made about “if it’s a poe that’s because it’s indistinguishable from the real thing”
As an atheist of only a few years, my biggest problem with the online atheist community is that they suffer the same pitfalls as religious people suffer. Someone posts an unsourced article about a group praying that people get cancer, and then 80 posts later people are still talking about how unloving and hypocritical those christians are. It’s called confirmation bias, you guys are selecting information that fits your world view and accepting it without question.
But if someone were to post an article about something bad that an atheist group allegedly did, you would look up the source, or be quick to point out that there is no source.
I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that. It’s like saying we shouldn’t drink because some people who get drunk beat their wives.
I know people who are christian who I would never try to convince them otherwise, because it works for them, even if it’s not true, what they are doing is just fine.
Dianne:
You conveyed it just fine. I was simply providing yet another example for our “No True Christian” visitor.
Westboro Baptist isn’t in reality?
philisyssis,
I linked to the source in my #65. Admittedly, I didn’t write it’s the page where this originated from, so I’ll repeat it here:
source
Now, you might still claim that the poster made it up. Obviously, I can’t prove that the letter is not a fake, but it was published on the page of the very agency of which the members were targeted and not at some totally unrelated place.
We know what confirmation bias is and we also know there are a lot of christians out there who live by hate because we deal with them first hand all the time.
Here’s your problem: christianity is exactly like that. You just don’t like that. Remember confirmation bias? You have it. Also, you’re deep into the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Yes, yes, how adorable. We tend to being noisy Gnus around here. You want a seat at the accommodationist table, where you can bleat about how nasty and wrong we all are.
My apologies for the missing umlauts. Umlauts are not my forte, after all; I prefer piano (yuk yuk).
Well, you see, there was this man on his roof in a flood, and…
No, Christianity is all puppies and fluff, there are just some mean folk doing it wrong.
Not gay puppies of course. And the bitches know their place.
Who gets to decide who is, and who isn’t, a Christian? Aren’t Christians people who believe that Jesus was gods’ son and died and was resurrected for our sins? That covers a lot of people. Some you don’t like. Claiming that they are not Christians is a really poor argument. Actually, it is a logical fallacy.
@Beatrice, thanks for the source. I guess my main problem was how it looked, an unsourced claim was met with a “stupid hateful christians” response. Now that you have sourced it it’s different.
@Caine, if you deal with hateful christians every day then maybe you should move out of the states. The rest of the world isn’t nearly so bad. Also, you can’t use the “no true scotsman” fallacy as a way to peg everybody with a label. It’s not considered a christian thing to do to worship Apollo. Is it a fallacy for me to say that someone who calls themselves a christian and worships Apollo isn’t really a christian? There are things that christianity isn’t. It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die. They may really be christians, but they’re actions are not. That is not a no true scotsman fallacy, it’s called understanding the things I don’t agree with.
philisyssis:
The source was provided, Punkin. Twice. As for atheists being bad? We’re experts when it comes to atheists being stupid, hateful or just assholes in general. We deal with a lot of those, too.
Reality is really going to hurt when you smack into it if you don’t start engaging that brain.
re: #98:
Caine, I defer to you… and will continue to defer to you while I get my popcorn.
**snack snack** [waiting to read 17 explanations of the No True Scotsman fallacy, none of which will be successful]
You would know how mean that is to say if you had any idea how often people from US write here that they would escape if they could.
What about God? He’s one mean bastard.
Condemning gay people isn’t hateful or are you just one of those who thinks “real” Christianity accepts homosexuality?
*similar examples for subordination of women, all those pesky rules about sex, abortion, other religions and the whole hell business… and so much more*
[waiting to read 17 explanations of the No True Scotsman fallacy, none of which will be successful]
Sigh….just because someone does something in the name of a religion doesn’t mean that it’s actually an action condoned by the religion. It isn’t a christian thing to do to pray that people get cancer. Could they have been christians acting hypocritically? Certainly, I would claim that they aren’t really christians, my point is that their actions are done in spite of what christianity teaches.
There are some things that christianity isn’t about.
Now tell me how that commits the no true scotsman fallacy.
This is the logical fallacy known as the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Not all Al Qaeda members have flown planes into sky scrapers or drove a car bomb into a crowd. So what. It just means that some are murderers and some are supporters and enablers of murderers.
Chris Rodda said:
Not much to go on.
But it’s a christian thing to pray to God to punish the sinners.
Yes/no?
Enough are to make xians a scary bunch that you have to watch for. Mostly the fundie perversion, which admittedly, bears no resemblance to my natal xian sect.
This group of wannabe witches is very tame compared to some xians.
On a good day PZ Myers has gotten up to ONE HUNDRED death threats a day.
A lot of scientists get them. Some xians toss off death threats like normal people say hello.
Xian terrorism has been a problem in the USA for decades. They occasionally murder people, mostly MD’s.
Phylis, your appeal to authority isn’t very convincing. Most of us, including myself, are exXians!!! Where do you think atheists come from anyway, the stork brings them? We know.
Crip Dyke:
Oh man, I’m busy, can’t I just post a link? Pleeeeaaaase? I could just settle on telling our little Cupcake she’s seriously indulging in Ex equus pyga.*
*”From the horse’s ass” is a variety of argument from authority. The horse’s ass claims a particular status such as former military or government service to lend weight to their assertions or imperatives. It is a supremely ineffective strategy, resulting only in the inflation of the horse’s ass’s own chest. Anyone who has ever tried to cinch a saddle girth tight on an unwilling animal knows that the beast is not that hard to outsmart. All it takes is patience, since sooner or later he must exhale.
She’s a preacher’s daughter, ya see. She knows it all.
#102
Textbook example of No True Scotsman.
Way, didn’t this jesus guy also say something about he can’t do with people who don’t hate their brothers and such?
Looks like christianity is the big mix ‘n’ match stand you get at the country fair.
Something in it for everybody. And you don’t get to claim that somebody didn’T shot their because they didn’t buy the jelly-beans like you did.
philisyssis:
Fuck you, you pretentious, willfully ignorant Cupcake.
Yes it is, ignorant little dimwit. You’re yet another Cupcake who hasn’t managed to actually read the bible. You just believe whatever shit was shoveled into your head.
I studied the bible for 10 years, intensively. I know what it says, Sugar.
Luke 19:26-28:
That’s your Jesus, punkin. Here’s some more, from Luke:
Here’s a bit from Matthew:
A little more from Matthew:
I can do this all day. Don’t think you know anything, Cupcake.
Know who preaches love and happiness and doesn’t condemn people outright? Joel Osteen. Know who the leaderships of most christian sects hate? Joel Osteen.
Or there’s that guy who says there isn’t a hell, so people won’t get condemned to eternal punishment, Rob Bell. Know who else Christian leaders don’t like? <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05bell.html"Rob Bell.
Sorry, philisyssis, there’s a lot more Biblical evidence for mean Christianity than kind, and a lot more evidence that Christianity has trying to make bad things happen to other people as a basic tenet, not an odd quirk believed only by a few extremists.
And you can drop it with the “you people don’t know Christians” schtick. There are an awful lot more of us who are ex-Christians than you realize, and a good many of it were in it as thickly as you are.
Oh, excuse me, my code is showing. How embarrassing.
Rob Bell.
Ogvorbis #69
“I think there is a special term for metal band umlauts.”
Rock dots. Or, if you prefer, Röck döts. ;)
Dumlauts.
/derail
No
It isn’t my jesus, I don’t follow him.
Which of those verses implied that we should use prayer to give people deadly diseases? This is all just a red herring on your part.
Do you guys actually think that anything that christians do in the name of christianity means that it must be a christian act? Good grief, talk about not understanding logical fallacies.
Haven’t probed those loving xians very deep, haven’t you.
We’ve had a couple of those ghouls here in the last few weeks who boasted about their nicey-nice jeeebus, why, they loved even those nasty atheists, dontcha know.
While condescendingly implying that we were amoral beasts ’cause we don’t believe in their favorite fairy tale book. With a clueless double dose of misogyny.
Xians only “love” those atheists whom they think they might convert. Show them this won’t happen, show them what you really think, however politely, and you’ll get to see the nastiness of the godly.
And they think their “tolerance” of atheists somehow marks them as especially good, and that we should be so grateful for it.
The only way you can keep relationships with them peaceful is to keep your thoughts for yourself. I know, that’s the way I deal with the members of my family who still believe.
philisyssis, what do you think about the majority Christian response to Joel Osteen and Rob Bell? Their version of Christianity is opposed by the leadership of major denominations. You can’t handwave that away as a few extremists who don’t understand what Christianity really is, unless you want to go down the road that ends up with you and only you understanding Christianity and everyone else in the world is wrong.
It’s the “metäl umlaut”!
Phillisyssis, you don’t get to decide whether those people are ‘true Christians’. They say they are Christians, therefore they are, in all their mean-minded, self-righteous squalor.
The reason we don’t tend to doubt things like this is that they are far, far too common; also that parodies tend to have better spelling.
So, cupcake, who’s the ultimate judge on what is christian and what isn’t?
Only stuff that’s mentioned in the bible is christian?
So, beating slaves apparently is…
Christianity is whatever Christians want it to be, more or less loosely based on what’s written in the Bible.
How many Christians need to do something so that it becomes a christian act?
No comments on the second part of my #101?
Jesus fuck!
First, Caine gave you examples to disprove your claim that Jesus is a nice progressive guy.
Second, there are parts of the Bible lauding unbelievable acts of violence, but all you have to say is “it doesn’t specifically mention praying for breast cancer”?!
I never said they weren’t true christians. I said their actions weren’t.
This is still a red herring. It is not christian for people to pray for others to get cancer. What the bible says about slavery has nothing to do with that.
(and yes, the part about beating slaves is certainly disturbing and shows a subjective morality, that’s one of my problems with christianity. That still has no bearing on the conversation at hand though)
Are you sure you are over the whole Christianity thing? You seem awfully determined to defend it.
Well, somebody doesn’t know what “red herring” means!
How about “shifting the goalposts”, sweetpea?
It has a lot to do with you claiming that Christianity is fine and dandy.
Wrong. It shows the lack of moral underpinnings in the babble. Which you would acknowledge if you had ever read the book of mythology/fiction from cover to cover like many of us have. Are you wearing or have worn a cotton/polyester blend? When can we schedule your stoning? That is biblical morality to the present time.
Says who?
Those people think so, lots of other people think so and the bible is surprisingly quiet on this issue…
Says who, though?
And are you purposely avoiding my question about Osteen and Bell?
If christianity is following the teachings of christ then doing something that wasn’t taught by christ isn’t a christian thing to do. This isn’t hard you guys.
I asked before and I’ll ask again, do you guys honestly think that anything done in the name of christianity must therefore be a christian thing to do? ffs grow up
So then that’s a “no”. None of those said that people should pray that others should get a disease. I see you tried to change what I asked for into “specifically mention praying for breast cancer” but I made my question general enough by asking if any of those commanded people to pray that others should get deadly diseases. So now you’re twisting my words to try to make this conversation go the way you want it to. Let’s try to be honest here.
Praying for people to get cancer and die isn’t a christian act, even if someone doing so is a christian. No place in the bible says that we should do that. I don’t understand why this is so hard for you guys to grasp.
philisyssis:
That’s not even the tippy-top of the tip of the iceberg, Cupcake. Go get acquainted with Rapture Ready, with Truth4Teens, with a thousand other christian forums, right here on the internet. You’ll see all the ugly and hate your delicate brain can handle.
You haven’t read much of the New Testament, have you?
Hatefulness is a core component of Christianity, as is wishing for the death and eternal torment of others.
I think that criticisms of christianity should be more thought out. A mindless “oh look a post on the pz myers forum about an unnamed group praying for people to get cancer…let’s make general statements about what christianity is about and assume that they are all like that” doesn’t deserve respect.
Try real criticisms like Divine Hiddenness, or “theology and falsification” by Flew, or philosophical objections to qualia. The herd mentality of the new atheism can be mind numbingly brainless sometimes, it’s comparable to creationism.
Caine,
Nice roundup! Don’t forget the Christian re-education camps.
Why ?
Because you don’t like it ?
It’s an exemple of nastiness that comes straight from the book xianity is based on.
So is the story of that guy calling two bears to maul children who had mocked him. Wish that wonderful all-loving god does grant.
And the one about the guy offering his daughter for the town to rape.
And all that stuff about people like us suffering for all eternity for not believing their brand of nonsense.
Nastiness is part and parcel of xianity.
Audley:
Nuh uh, it’s all confirmation bias on our part!!1!
philisyssis:
FFS, you little dimwit, you wouldn’t know a logical fallacy if it bit you on the nose.
This is just so, so sick. It’s bad enough that these Christians are hateful enough to wish that their sky daddy would inflict such harm on others, but to make it such a targeted, misogynistic attack on women in the form of incurable breast cancer? Really??
One more item to throw on the mountain of reasons why religion is harmful.
But doing something that is mentioned in the Bible is ok then.
Now, where can I get me some slaves? Oh, that would have to be a husband with slaves. Damn.
You wrote this :
Caine gave you quotes that disprove it. Quit shifting those goalposts back and forth, you’re giving me a headache.
Until you provide science and us with a “No True Christian” meter, that we can use to determine who is and isn’t a Christian, we take the simple approach of those who call themselves Xians, are Xians until they renounce it. So, where is your evidence these folks are Xians? Put up or shut the fuck up. Welcome to science, not injured ego.
What about someone who does something in the name of a religion that follows from the traditional teachings of that religion?
So, philisyssis, who was sending Jessica Ahlquist those threats of rape and death? Who threatened PZ over the cracker incident? More not-Christians? My, there’s a lot of those not-Christians about – all of whom call themselves Xian, go to church, pray to someone called Jesus, etc.
Would you maybe like to enumerate which of the 25000-odd variants of Xianity are the true ones and which are not?
Wrong again. Phylis doesn’t have the slightest idea what is in the xian magic book. In the bible, this is called “imprecatory prayer” and it is found all through it.
BTW, Phylis managed to find another logical fallacy.
She doesn’t speak for all xians, or even her cult. Just herself. There is no xian central and no agreed upon spokesperson. It’s all just someone’s opinion.
Oooh, sniny, Carlie! Yes, we shouldn’t leave out what is done to the kids. Jesus Camp, anyone? Or all the good Christian parents who chose to allow their kids to suffer and die while they waited for god to pay attention?
Except gay people.
Don’t get me wrong, he condemns them pleasantly. He even says they can go to heaven, even though they’re sinning.
philisyssis,
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
I repeated that a couple of times just in case you forgot that you wrote it and didn’t notice the dozen fucking times it was quoted and for some reason don’t notice it this time either.
Talking about that is not a red herring. You wrote it which makes it open for discussion.
One simple question that has been avoided;
Do you guys think that there are actions that can be performed in the name of christianity that aren’t really christian things to do?
It’s a simple yes or no question and don’t try telling me it’s a malformed question.
If your answer is “yes” then how would you determine it?
If your answer is “no” then there’s no point trying to have a rational conversation with you about religion.
I’d like an explanation of why.
No. Only the things that follow from traditional Christian teachings, including but not limited to the teachings attributed to Jesus in the Bible.
For example, praying for deadly misfortune to befall those people who don’t follow God’s will.
Ooh, that’s a difficult one.
I choose… asking a True Christian. They would know! Too bad you can’t find those in yellow pages.
none of the verses in post 111 told us to be hateful towards others. I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek, buy you guys all claim to have read the bible so I won’t bother posting them.
Now please respond to #145
Sorry philissis, you avoided mine first. No fair asking question after question if you’re not going to answer any.
truthspeaker – crap, I’m sorry. I didn’t know Osteen was against gays. All I really know of him is the backlash against him, so I dind’t know he was on their side on anything.
There’s a huge range of beliefs held by Christians and which Christians hold up as Christian. Some of it is fairly generic and positive stuff, like “Do unto others.”
I would ask to what extent is that Christian? It’s a sentiment common to many societies. Do you say that ten fingers and ten toes are “Christian” because the overwhelming majority of Christians have ten fingers and ten toes?
The hate is mail is characterized by the following:
It was written by Christians.
The Christians who wrote it claim to be behaving in a specifically Christian manner.
They claim to be upholding the beliefs of Jesus.
They have cited Christian scripture to uphold what they are doing.
All of these are specifically Christian. An atheist could not do them. An atheist can write hate mail, and an atheist could do unto others as she would have others do unto her, but she cannot cite the Bible as her authority. Likewise the examples cited by Caine. They are not representative of the majority of Christians, but they are specifically Christian.
Therefore, sorry. It’s Christian. It is a bad thing that people did because they were Christians and would not have done if they had not been Christians. Sure, maybe they would have found an excuse to do some other bad thing if they had been something else–but they didn’t.
That is assuming it’s not just a dumb Poe.
No, because if an action is done in the name of Christ, it’s a Christian action by definition!
Will you please leave us alone now? I’m sure you can find some nice Christians to have a circle jerk with.
I sure as fuck would if I could.
philisyssis
Live in my fucking world surrounded by religious fucking assholes coercing me to let them psychological torture my child with the idea of Hell.
Take your accommodating ass and stuff it with a porcupine. Hate is a part of Christianity, especially here in the U.S., if you are too fucking stupid to see then shame on you. Take your fucking blinders off and see through your privilege. Otherwise, GTFO until you come to your senses.
Jesus’s teachings are incoherent on a great many things. For that reason, the fact that you can produce “loving” verses doesn’t actually provide useful evidence that hate wasn’t among his teachings. What exactly is unChristian here? Which exact part? Is it the cancer, because the Bible never said anything about cancer? Is it prayers for people to die? Is it meanness? What claim are you trying to make, defined as specifically as possible?
The babble also consists of the Old Testament. Now, if you have worn polyester/cotton blends, or haven’t ritually purified yourself after your menstruation, when can we arrange the stoning? All or nothing on the babble. I suggest nothing, including the pick and chose from the new testament, as it is a book of mythology/fiction, and you would do better ignoring it.
No, not really. The Bible pretty much sanctions doing anything that God tells you to do, and once you assign the voices in your head the title of “God,” it’s pretty much wide open.
You have your idea of “christian things to do,” and others have theirs. And all find justification in the new and old testaments.
The reason why you have disagreements over the fundamental teachings that last for centuries is because religion and faith are an inherently faulty mode of thinking–when you put all that importance on faith, scripture and dogma, and retain beliefs in the face of contrary evidence, and consider it a virtue, you’ve disengaged your reality check.
Which basically removes any real limits on what you can do.
damn I miss the brunching shuttlecocks…
So, you are basically picking and choosing the nice parts and determined to ignore the blood and gore. Good of you to admit it.
Caine provided the passages, I’ll just repeat the last one.
And do I even have to comment on this? Really?
Raven:
Yes, something else all the flavours of christianity don’t agree on, however, plenty of them use it.
Ah yes the lazy atheism, don’t actually think about what position you are against, just make ignorant claims that aren’t even logical and continue to be mad at them all because of an unsourced email….
And I certianly wouldn’t want to have a circle jerk with christians, I tend to challenge them with legitimate arguments, not the ignorant nonsense that seems to be barfed into the comment section of this blog.
(Having said that I do appreciate a lot of PZ’s posts, as well as many of the “why i am an atheist” posts, it’s just some of the commentors here know as much about religion creationists do about evolution, and their ignorance shows in the way they argue)
I thought about this while posting today and wondered if anyone would bring it up. I think it’s a good point. It’s usually what I bring up when arguing over whether or not there are objective morals with god.
Examples of prayer for bad things to happen to one’s enemies:
Judges 5:
Judges 11:
2 Samuel 3:
Acts 13:
Psalm 35:
—–
I haven’t picked up a Bible in about 3 years, and it took me 10 minutes to find those. And that’s by no means an exhaustive list.
That is an impressive bit of blockquote fail there, if I do say myself. Now if I can just get an italics fail,/i>, I’ll have a trifecta.
philisyssis wrote:
‘We’? I thought you weren’t a Christian.
But, that aside, are you claiming Christians are only allowed to do exactly what it says in the bible? Guess there are going to be a lot of abandoned cars on the road tomorrow, ’cause I don’t ever recall seeing a reference to automobiles in there anywhere.
Define “Christian things”. Then demonstrate how you know that to be the correct definition.
We already know them, you dimwit. The point is, you’re ignoring all the verses which show you to be wrong. This is known as cherry-picking, Cupcake. If you’re going to believe the bible, you don’t get to toss out the nasty shit and threats Jesus said and issued just ’cause that make you wrinkle up your nose.
Those verses don’t cancel out the others.
You’re fantastic at arguing. Really, all you need are assertions and feigned incredulity. Don’t even bother explaining them. That’s very convincing and you should keep it up.
I am feeling SO IGNORED by philissysis.Osteen? Bell? Heck, you could even comment on why it took so long for anyone to criticize Richard Land.
Well it’s been fun fucking with you guys. LOL at Caine for getting his/her panties in a knot. You should probably go do some needle work now to calm yourself down.
CC:
Oh, now, Cassandra. This is like toying with the ever so lovely christians at RR, who often exhibit confusion as to why their god didn’t mention America in the bible.
Cancer, specifically, was unknown then. It would have been considered to be one of many “wasting diseases”. So much for that whole omniscience business. So much useful info just didn’t make it into god’s holy word.
Is this your idea of “challenging them with legitimate arguments?
Ah, yes. We can have a nice long, fruitful discussion about why you’re right and we’re wrong. Should be productive!
Really, there’s a reason why christianity, along with the other major religions, keeps diverging into innumerable sects and denominations. Because when you rely on things like ancient scripture and internal revelation for your information about the world, you have no means by which to test competing ideas.
And some, like the examples provided you, get really bad ideas, violent ideas. And they cannot be reasoned out of them, because they didn’t acquire them through reason.
Whaddya know…
A prominent US Catholic nuns’ group has said it is “stunned” that the Vatican reprimanded it for spending too much time on poverty and social justice concerns and not enough on abortion and gay marriage.
Let’s take, for a moment, for granted the idea that “American” is indicating the US specifically and not everyone/every nation in the Americas generally.
With that definition in mind, is it unfair to say that supporting the ousting Allende in a tide of blood was an American action, or since the constitution doesn’t mention supporting or not supporting coups in South American nations that it is fundamentally wrong and misleading to call this action, “American.”
Can nominating conventions for presidential candidates be said to be an “American” practice, or is that fundamentally wrong and misleading since no mention of nominating conventions exists in the US Constitution?
Saying that something is a Christian action only when you like it, even though the bible clearly teaches hate and violence as well as love and kindness, when there’s so much in there that is wide open to interpretation and can be taken as “teaching” if you wish, is what seems fundamentally dishonest to me.
philisyssis, if the specifics of Christianity are so obvious and straightforward, why are there so many different sects/denominations?
philisyssis, you are the ignorant, irrational one here. All you’re doing is parroting the shit that was hand-shoveled into your head. You have little life experience, you’re definitely lacking in the knowledge department and you show zero signs of any ability to learn or think.
I’m pretty sure you’re still a “christian”.
Silly carlie, pope isn’t a True Christian. You know what, let’s just scrap all Catholics.
Fucking with us? Sweetie pie, we love doing this. See, even if you think you’re just screwing around, we know that what’s happening is that a portion of the hundreds of thousands of visitors PZ gets really do believe like you claim to, and that they read the responses we give to you, and either it makes them change their mind, or it makes them shut up and not bother us all the time about it. Plus, it keeps us in shape for the real religious zealots we always get. You’re not a troll, honey, you’re our treadmill.
Phil:
Hey, fuck you! At least I’m smart enough not to misuse logical fallacies (what exactly was the red herring in Caine’s statement again…?)
Besides, as others have demonstrated in this fucking thread the bible is full of contradictory messages: “turn the other cheek”, but “I bring not peace, but a sword”. I recognize the fact that with literally thousands of sects, no one can actually determine what a “Christian action” is and have it apply across the board. You, apparently, do not.
Just because you are stupid enough to believe that “real Christians” are really nice and sweet people who don’t write hate mail doesn’t make it true. Real Christians kill people, bomb clinics, commit acts of terrorism, prevent LGBT people from having full civil rights, prevent women from seeking family planning services/abortion… I could go one, but you get the point.
So, dear, how about you define a Christian action and back it up with biblical sources? And we’ll see how long it takes for someone to tear your worthless assumption down.
Nerd:
Hey, if we’re going for disturbing, don’t forget about Revelation, which many people seem to want to ignore.
Wasn’t there a bit about “crushing unbelievers in the winepress of the wrath of God” or something like that?
Carlie:
Stop asking questions which require thought. I think they make hir head hurt.
Aww, Caine, you gave it away! :C
But I guess trollikins is flouncing anyway. And with a parting shot at you, no less, with the always-charming self-important assumption that you’re Dreadfully Upset by hir behavior. I’m not sure what xe means by mentioning your needlework in what seems to be an attempted insult of some kind, but well, the mysteries of the troll psyche…
read post 169 nooblzaurus
You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog. I suggest you call some people up and get out tonight.
Let’s have some more New Testament examples, just to round things out:
Galatians 1:
Revelation 11:
dangerously close to failing to stick the flounce. I leave it to others if 169 was calling the flounce or not…but it sure sounded like it to me.
Oh Carlie, I love you. ♥
Phil:
You really are an idiot, Sugar. You are a fine example of christian “thought” in action. I’ve been laughing and chatting with Mister during this whole exchange. By the way, I’m commando. You couldn’t get my panties in a knot for love or money, Sweetpea. *smooch*
Aaaaw, such a failure, even in attempts at insults. Needs work, Sugar.
Aw, I still haven’t gotten an answer to my question about hating gay people. I kinda hoped philisyssis would pull “hate the sin, love the sinner” on that one.
philisyssis wrote:
Meh…I only give you 6 out of 10. You forgot the trollface.gif and the “lol u mad?!”
Wow! That’s incredibly clever and original! I bet you are the pride of whatever rock you crawled out from under.
And with a parting shot at you, no less, with the always-charming self-important assumption that you’re Dreadfully Upset by hir behavior.
philisyssis wrote:
Oh, you’re one of those people who doesn’t seem to realise there are other people reading the blog who may take on board what gets written, even when the troll getting stomped turns out to be a poe.
How…ignorant.
What I said about myself was true, I was a christian most of my life and in the last few years I’ve left it.
I really do think that there are a lot stupid arguments against religion. Buying into unsourced articles is confirmation bias.
As for the details of the bible, I was arguing for the sake of arguing. I know that it teaches horrible stuff and that’s part of the reason I left. Whetehr you beleive me or not I couldn’t care less about. You are a faceless poster in a comment section of a blog.
If you were just trolling, it proves both you and your fellow Xians are nothing but liars and bullshitters. Show some morality the next time you think about trolling, which isn’t in the babble. Not bearing false witness is, and false witness is required for trolling.
And ignoring my question while failing to stick the flounce! It’s almost as if phil doesn’t want to admit that their out-of-their-ass definition of Christianity doesn’t hold up in the real world.
Well, since praying for someone’s survival tends to make them die faster, I’ll presume that praying for someone to die, will ensure them a long and happy life.
Would somebody like to call for a fair catch, or should we let that punt bounce out-of-bounds?
Wow! That’s incredibly clever and original! I bet you are the pride of whatever rock you crawled out from under.
Caine’s derhogatory use of the word cupcake was meant to get a rise out me yet I’m the one that crawled out from under a rock….
Beatrice:
It’s not at all fair, the way you and Carlie are being ignored and dismissed.
Hey, Phil! You’re being all stupid and nasty and definitely christian to Beatrice and Carlie. Try a little honesty, Sugar and answer their questions. (Yes, we know you actually can’t. We’re just polishing our fangs, Hon.)
But you do care, don’t you? All you trolls and poes do. It’s the whole reason for your being here.
Oh, you’re a tone troll too? This is fantastic. Imma get the popcorn going.
Damn, my comment got cut off.
CC:
Yes, the psychic-defense so they don’t have to consider their own stupidity.
BTW, I called first on Cupcake being a christian, I demand cookies.
Caine – thanks. I’ll put extra butter on your popcorn. :) And also some extra for Beatrice, to salve the pain of not being paid attention to by phil.
philisyssis wrote:
Considering how much effort you went to to defend it, I’d say you’re not as far from it as you’d like to think you are.
Phil:
Get a spellchecker and learn to use it, Cupcake. No, I didn’t use it to get a rise out of you. You didn’t deserve any other consideration after you showed yourself to be a liar. Cupcake is a meme here and it is used when it’s merited.
This also has nothing to do with you ignoring all the hard questions aimed your way. You’re the one stinking of rotting fish*, Cupcake.
*That would mean red herrings for the hard of thinking.
And some Psalms, since those are apparently a “nice” part of the Old Testament that cafeteria Christians are allowed to read:
Psalm 58:
Psalm 59:
Psalm 69:
Psalm 109:
Psalm 140:
—–
The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible really is an excellent resource. I didn’t even have to go to the basement and dig out my old Bible.
Caine:
No cookies, how about some still-warm muffins?
So are you, honeycakes. What’s your point?
philisyssis wrote:
For someone who holds so much disdain for so petty and unsophisticated a forum as a blog comment section (*gasps, adjusts monocle*), you sure spend a lot of time reading and posting in one…
Well, not reading, obviously. You clearly haven’t learned anything.
Khm, #123.
Only a suspicion, not an outright claim, so I’ll satisfy myself with that extra buttery popcorn from carlie (thanks!).
Audley:
That’ll work. ♥
I am actually laughing out loud. Cute lil trollikins. Cry more about how Caine is super mean to dishonest, unoriginal trolls who think pretending to be stupid Christian apologists is the laff riot of the century. What a sad, boring, predictable little shit.
“…and the lamentations of the women!”
I think philisyssis meant this to be two words, the first of which is “der.”
Damn, I missed another troll. But maybe it’ll come back for more whining and sneering at us.
So, Phil, you unsticking your reflounce?
Carlie I have plenty of popcorn from up near comment 100.
I use non-dairy margarine though I do give it a light sprinkle of garlic – try some!
Start making some sense, or you shall be thrown into der hoggletory!
CC:
Hey, it’s working for Phil, let’s them out of having to pay attention to Carlie, Beatrice, Feralboy*, Wowbagger**, Nutmeg, you and a host of others. Not that this is winning the dishonest little dimwit any points.
*Spellchecker suggestion: Ferryboat
**Spellchecker suggestions: Carpetbagger, Waggery, Swaggerer.
@Tis himself –
I don’t think Phil knows what a flounce is, frankly, though ze likes to think ze knows everything…
feralboy12:
:falls over laughing: Oh, man…
**Spellchecker suggestions: Carpetbagger, Waggery, Swaggerer.
Well, I could arguably qualify for the first, seeing as I did move from a northern state to a southern one – though there wasn’t any post-war reconstruction to profit from by doing so.
You should warn people before projecting that hard.
Some of us are photosensitive.
Oh, the witty comeback from a troll commenting on a blog about how those who comment on blogs have no life. And without irony.
So far you’ve behaved a lot like a xian troll.
If you aren’t one, congrats, you’re doing a very good impression of one.
Hey, I learned a word!
Waggery:
1: mischievous merriment: pleasantry
2: jest; especially: practical joke
/derail
It appears that phil has decided to go elsewhere, probably to impress the peasants with its knowledge of something or other.
Audley:
Yes, it stems from Wag, a person given to droll, roguish, or mischievous humor; wit.
Adding to derail. ;p
You despicable, lying, shit-stain. Has it ever run that through that microscopic pustule that you laughingly refer to as a “brain” that a significant portion of us were Christian? I certainly was.
I believed in a god, an afterlife, and the “miracles” that surrounded the faith I was baptized into. I dutifully went to Mass on weekends and “holy days of obligation,” took communion, went to confession, attended CCD, and believed exactly what a good Catholic boy was supposed to believe. I believed that abortion was murder and that all birth control was immoral. I believed that homosexuality was an “abomination” and it should be punishable by law. In my high school health class, I was sent to the principal’s office for calling a class mate a “slut” during a debate on the morality of pre-marital sex and at the time I would have insisted that she was in the wrong because I was on God’s side. I was taught all of these things by other Christians both Catholic and Protestant. I was told that they were exactly what God (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit) wanted us to say, think, and do as a prerequisite to our faith. You were not a “real Christian” if you didn’t believe these things.
Therefore, don’t you fucking tell me that I or other ex-theists don’t know what we are talking about when we bring up religion. I knew it, I lived it, and I’m still recovering from it.
Face it sewage-breath, the only time when you’re pile of ancient delusions “isn’t Christian” is when one of the flock makes the rest of you look stupid and/or evil. As other’s have pointed out, you cherry pick the “nice” (albeit entirely unoriginal) portions of the Bible to vindicate the Christian Cancer, but ignore the illogical, hateful, and superstitious remainder.
Well, I have news for you, cum-cake…
It doesn’t matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Orthodox, or Coptic. ‘t doesn’t matter what passages you pull out of your rancid holy book. It doesn’t matter if you believe that JEEZ-us was wholly god or wholly man. It doesn’t matter if you accept transubstantiation, pre or post-tribulationism, gnosticism, or another other moronic minutia the the various demotions quibble over. It doesn’t matter if you think the Messiah was born of a virgin or stepped off the gangplank of a flying saucer. It doesn’t matter if you think that JEEZ-us was a proto-Marxist who wanted to feed the hungry and ban handguns or a right-wing crusader who wanted to pillory LGBTs and nuke Iran. The only thing that matters is this:
As long as your religion includes a 1st century itinerant rabbi named “JESUS CHRIST as your founder/teacher/leader/central figurehead, YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN!
Deal with it, then kindly go fuck yourself!
‘Tis:
Oh, they might come back. They often do.
And usually showing no signs of having read any of the comments directed to them, sadly.
Darned right, Akira. Know why I took evolution as a sophomore in college? Because I wanted to know what they were teaching so I could better argue against it. Yeah. I don’t want to hear about how we don’t understand the religious viewpoint.
[meta]
Akira @223, a most excellent righteous rant!
(+1)
Carlie:
Neither do I, yet that’s assumption, every. single. time. Dano did this for the nth time in the got to stand up to the experts thread. No, no, you couldn’t possibly know what the bible says. No, no, you couldn’t possibly know what it’s like to be a moderate christian/evangelical/catholic/calvinist/whatthefuckeverist.
I’m honestly sick of that. My years at Calvary Chapel, living at Mansion Messiah? I believed. I wanted it to be true, so very badly. I lived it, I studied and studied and studied. So yeah, I don’t appreciate the assumption we don’t have a clue.
Pharyngula Labs has been working on a TruXianTron™ for years, in order to determine the real from the pseudo Xians. Unfortunately, we have to set the parameters so wide, due to the 30,000+ varieties of Xians, that if the person claims to be an Xian, the TruXianTron™ says they are one. Only those who renounce Xianity, like GnuAtheists, are rejected.
Every time I hear that I want to smack them upside the head metaphorically with my literal 1987 faux-leather name-embossed well-thumbed and bookmarked NIV Thompson Chain Reference Bible.
[meta]
So, I’ve just read this thread.
<snicker>
(Typical — nothing left to chew)
I would suggest that not only are a significant proportion of us ex-Christian, but also that a significant proportion of us cared deeply about our Christianity. It is the betrayal of trust that turns those of us who believed into Gnus, rather than accommodationists. But of course, we don’t lose our knowledge in the process of becoming atheists, only our faith.
[meta]
PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
He didn’t have to know the bible though because he’s not a bible scholar…to refute it though you have to know it inside and out.
Phill, affinity trolls are not appreciated
As far as I’m concerned, one of the best arguments against Christianity is the sheer number of (often wildly) different interpretations – and that’s just the extant ones; when you factor in those wiped out by competing faiths (including the gnostic version, which – to me at least – makes a heck of a lot more sense than ‘traditional’ Christianity) it becomes ridiculous.
What kind of god is so incompetent as to make its message so ambiguous?
Oh no, we turn into typical ignorant atheists who know nothing about Christianity. I don’t remember anything about being a Christian. I don’t remember all of those Bible verses I memorized, or the convoluted way they were strung together across books and time periods in tracts like the “Romans Road” and the “if you died right now, what would you say to God to prove you should get into Heaven?” ones. I don’t remember the feeling of relief and wonder washing over me when I prayed for salvation. I don’t remember the nervousness that made me want to throw up when I felt I had to go up in front of the congregation and admit that my first baptism had been when I was too young to understand, but I did now and wanted to be rebaptized. I don’t remember the feeling of community and acceptance as I rose dripping out of the water at the front of the church. I don’t remember being taught that homosexuality was wrong and that we had to be abstinent until marriage. I don’t remember VBS or summer youth camp or going from house to house in rural townships asking if anyone was interested in a church being built in their town, sometimes at the end of a shotgun because what the hell was I doing at their house in the middle of the day. I don’t remember regularly interrupting people having their relaxed Saturday morning breakfast in their nightclothes by showing up at their door and asking them why they hadn’t been to church lately and we missed them. I don’t remember spending weekends in college singing glurgy Christian pop rock songs with a group of people wearing matching clothes in tiny churches. I don’t remember teaching Bible studies to college groups and children’s groups, and poring over various Bible study materials to find just the right ones with just the right message. I don’t remember nervously, raggedly catching for breath as I tried to tell a good friend that she was going to hell if she didn’t know God, not because I wanted to tell her but because I had been taught that I had to. I don’t remember being guilted into every decision I ever made about my life because it had to be in accordance with what God wanted. I don’t remember feeling unsure and afraid and upset the more I realized each little chunk of what I believed was simply untrue based on the facts. I certainly don’t remember how easily and quickly an entire group of people dropped me as if I were dead the minute I stopped attending their church. Nope, becoming an atheist made me forget everything about being a Christian. Gotta have people like phil explain what it’s really about to me now.
But if we really knew Jebus and really knew the Bible then we’d be fundamentalist, evangelical, pentacostal Christians of the most bigoted and persecuting type. Just ask phil or Dano or any of the many Christians who come to show us the way.
[meta + OT]
Ack, carlie!
:|
Why not the official Pullet Patrol™ Clue-by-four? With taser like electrodes to jump the start the thinking in any slightly ajar minds. Works for all but the most hardened minds, like liberturds and popes. 5 e-ducats with a purchase of any grog or swill.
Carlie:
Mmmm, just as I don’t remember, all these decades later, the feeling of being reborn, of community and acceptance being baptized in the ocean at Corona del Mar. Nope, don’t remember that at all.
Sorry John, I got a little carried away there.
‘Tis – one holdover from my upbringing is that I still cling to the idea that only the most fundamentalist, evangelical Christians of the most bigoted type are the true Christians, because at least they are following most of the Bible rather than just the happy bits. I’m still working on eradicating that concept.
Caine – ooo, being baptized in a natural body of water gets you extra piety points, and making it an ocean I think gives you a Badge of Authenticity™ on top of that! Jealous. I had to stand on an upside-down plastic milk crate in a tub between the organ and the piano.
Carlie, I was pleased that you elaborated perfectly what I had meant in my one-liner.
Carlie:
Wow, I had no idea! It was beautiful, we were all in a cove, surrounded by high cliffs, right before sunset. After the baptisms, there was a huge fellowship around a fire, with food and fun, went on until midnight.
It’s hard to give all that up.
Well, personally, I don’t have a clue. About what it’s like to be a Xian, I mean, I may have been vaguely deist at one point, as well as a half-hearted pagan, but never Xian. (I owe my parents bigtime just for that.) But I’m cool with it. Puts the onus on Xians to explain why I should want to have a clue about Xianity. So far they’ve all failed horribly at persuading me why I should give a fuck about what their musty old tome says. All the Bible learning I’ve done has been on my own, out of curiosity or in response to some controversy, like when I wanted to figure out what the bible says about gay people.
But here’s the thing: if I hear about an atheist doing terrible awful things, my first impulse is not to deny that that person is an atheist. Instead, it’s like, “Well, fuck. An atheist is doing awful things. That sucks.” I have to own the fact that there are some people who identify as atheists who are hateful little pukes, and/or mass murderers like Stalin (though if you think you are a god, does that still count as atheism? anyway). Their lack of morality doesn’t make them less atheist. Just makes them immoral.
But I don’t really care because nobody has ever claimed that being an atheist makes you a better person. Whereas with Christianity, the claim is that by becoming a Christian, you get this moral guidebook and you live a better life. Therefore Xians are heavily invested in denying that people who to terrible things, even if they specifically claim they are doing it in the name of Christ, are not True Christians.
It’s pretty easy to see from prison stats that Xians are just as likely as anybody else to go to jail for committing a crime. You see Xians trying to justify this or that type of bigotry, from slavery to homophobia, using their scripture, throughout history. What the fuck do I know? I don’t care to read the Wholly Babble, much less try to parse which verses are meant literally and which are metaphorical and which are true but only in the context of the Bronze Age semi-nomadic primitive culture that gave rise to the religion. That’s for believers to do. Realistically speaking, with thousands upon thousands of Xian cults proliferating, it is completely impossible to say which ones are “real” and which are not. Each one of them can point to this or that piece of scripture, because that’s the way the Babble is written. As someone else observed, there’s something there for everyone.
In the meantime, I do Christians the same courtesy I do fellow atheists: if they say they are a Christian, then that’s what they are. I think that’s fairly basic level of respect, to not contradict the labels people choose for themselves without good reason.
In Phil’s case, s/he has given a pretty large body of evidence for why s/he might be lying about not being Christian. The real kicker was the statement that s/he was just fucking with us. Okay, if you’re really just fucking with people then why should we believe any of what came before? And vehemently defending Christianity isn’t something that atheists normally do. But hey. You might be an atheist who still has an irrational attachment to maintaining your positive image of the belief system you sunk years of your life into. Either way, you’re still wronger than broccoli on pizza.
Ah, shoot. That’ll teach me to skip preview!
Well, personally, I don’t have a clue. About what it’s like to be a Xian, I mean, I may have been vaguely deist at one point, as well as a half-hearted pagan, but never Xian. (I owe my parents bigtime just for that.) But I’m cool with it. Puts the onus on Xians to explain why I should want to have a clue about Xianity. So far they’ve all failed horribly at persuading me why I should give a fuck about what their musty old tome says. All the Bible learning I’ve done has been on my own, out of curiosity or in response to some controversy, like when I wanted to figure out what the bible says about gay people.
But here’s the thing: if I hear about an atheist doing terrible awful things, my first impulse is not to deny that that person is an atheist. Instead, it’s like, “Well, fuck. An atheist is doing awful things. That sucks.” I have to own the fact that there are some people who identify as atheists who are hateful little pukes, and/or mass murderers like Stalin (though if you think you are a god, does that still count as atheism? anyway). Their lack of morality doesn’t make them less atheist. Just makes them immoral.
But I don’t really care because nobody has ever claimed that being an atheist makes you a better person. Whereas with Christianity, the claim is that by becoming a Christian, you get this moral guidebook and you live a better life. Therefore Xians are heavily invested in denying that people who to terrible things, even if they specifically claim they are doing it in the name of Christ, are not True Christians.
It’s pretty easy to see from prison stats that Xians are just as likely as anybody else to go to jail for committing a crime. (Actually atheists are underrepresented in prison but I think that’s a correlation to education, not a reflection on the belief system itself.) You see Xians trying to justify this or that type of bigotry, from slavery to homophobia, using their scripture, throughout history. What the fuck do I know? I don’t care to read the Wholly Babble, much less try to parse which verses are meant literally and which are metaphorical and which are true but only in the context of the Bronze Age semi-nomadic primitive culture that gave rise to the religion. That’s for believers to do. Realistically speaking, with thousands upon thousands of Xian cults proliferating, it is completely impossible to say which ones are “real” and which are not. Each one of them can point to this or that piece of scripture, because that’s the way the Babble is written. As someone else observed, there’s something there for everyone.
In the meantime, I do Christians the same courtesy I do fellow atheists: if they say they are a Christian, then that’s what they are. I think that’s fairly basic level of respect, to not contradict the labels people choose for themselves without good reason.
In Phil’s case, s/he has given a pretty large body of evidence for why s/he might be lying about not being Christian. The real kicker was the statement that s/he was just fucking with us. Okay, if you’re really just fucking with people then why should we believe any of what came before? And vehemently defending Christianity isn’t something that atheists normally do. But hey. You might be an atheist who still has an irrational attachment to maintaining your positive image of the belief system you sunk years of your life into. Either way, you’re still wronger than broccoli on pizza.
I have to admit, I’ve forgotten a lot of what I learned when I was a Christian. That’s probably because I’m now so mortified by what I believed that I try not to think about the specifics. And I’m in a field where at least 80% of people are atheist/agnostic, so I pretend that I’ve always been a good little atheist.
I was kind of shocked when carlie mentioned the Romans Road and I realized that I no longer remembered the exact verses for that. I don’t really need that knowledge any more – I only argue with Christians on the internet these days.
But the experiences are more vivid in my mind. All those nights at Bible camp, as a camper and a counselor. Sitting on the beach doing daily devotions. Morning and evening prayer meetings. Teaching my campers about basic Christian doctrine. The 12 girls who accepted Christ in my cabin the first summer I was a counselor. And somehow people think I never truly believed?
Sally,
We’re in the same boat– I wasn’t raised in any faith*, either. And I have yet to see any compelling argument from a Christian why I should follow their god-man.
I’ve gotten threats (“You’ll burn in hell!”) and pity (“I’ll pray for your soul!”), but that’s about it. They don’t have an argument, just empty promises. So sad.
*My Mom tried Unitarianism when I was 10 years old or so, but that only lasted about 6 months.
from the original email:
you hung up on us and were rude to our leader.
Right Wing Authoritarianism FTW!
I pretend that I’ve always been a good little atheist.
you feel the need to do that?
you feel you would suffer persecution if you told your workmates you were religious at one time?
wow.
Is this in the US?
So has syphilis been dispatched already? You folk are penicillin for stupid ideas..
Carlie, “you’re not a troll, honey, you’re our treadmill” is an absolutely brilliant and spot on response.
I’m not entirely sure, but I feel like this might be motivated more by embarrassment than by fear of persecution. That’s a hunch.
Huh, delurking because this particular topic raised my rage levels to VERY far above eyeballs. I just fucking love how this targets women specifically, and breasts specifically. This could not be any stronger of a statement about their true intentions, and their desire to punish disobedient women specifically. I mean, let’s not target soldiers (because everyone knows women can’t REALLY be soldiers in this worldview, no matter their actual role in the military…). Nope, gotta be the ladies, and their evil, heathen, unsoldierly breasts that are only used to tempt men!
I was born with a serious milk allergy. I’m alive today thanks to modern medicine and soy formula. There is an awesome picture of my older brother’s stuffed animal propping up the bottle for three month old me (a fat and happy little soy drinking baby). I was also the six year old who was kicked out of bible school for asking why god killed EVERYONE during the supposed flood. These people would probably think my allergy and my parent’s struggle to figure out what was wrong and keep me alive was some kind of evidence that their god wants atheists and their kids dead (my parents are atheist but felt we should be exposed to church for cultural reasons).
Well, fuck them. Science kept me alive, and science saved my aunt and grandmother from dying of breast cancer. To emphasize – FUCK THEM. My cousins have a mother today thanks to science, my grandma lived to see all her grandkids thanks to science. What have they ever done for other people? Nothing on that level, of that I’m completleyl sure. They only want to cause pain and hate. So fuck them. They can only bring ineffective words of hate and destruction to the world. So here I am, alive and about to become an engineer in the hopes of giving those alive and not yet alive a better life. Their hate pales in comparison to what the rest of us can do to make sure their vile wishes never come true. Love all of you pharyngulites, please keep on fighting this disgusting hate, I know I will.
Oh, no! I’m just embarrassed. Especially since I was the young-earth-creationist fundamentalist variety of Christian, and now I’m a biology grad student, with an evolutionary biology focus.
People in my department do tend to mock Christians without stopping to think about whether anyone in the room might actually believe. My classmates who are believers report that there are some awkward moments, but nothing worse than that. (This is in Canada.)
My close friends among the grad students know that I used to be a serious Christian, but I haven’t told any of them I was a creationist. That’s my dirty little secret, and it’s staying that way.
@ eight8bit8bus
That was an awesomely righteous rant.
Philisyssis, how do we know that your version of christianity is the “right one”? Seems to me these “not quite christians” are living in the bible belt, have been christians all their lives and go to church every Sunday.
and they say that prayer has a physical effect. Perfectly in line with the teachings of the bible. Smiting your enemies is hardly a surprise find in the average holy book.
Sorry, but I doubt you think of yourself as anywhere near as christian as these people. You are also not as well read on the bible as others.
I think YOU are the no-true scotsman.
Shorter Philisyssis
Caine, Fleur du mal
I don’t think Philisyssis understands yet that the effect xtians have on you is similar to viagra to one with ED.
Is it just me, or did philisyssis’s flounce (and re-flounce and re-re-flounce) boil down to:
“Strong reactions to hate? Meh, who cares… they don’t hate me, (or, at least, they haven’t gotten around to telling me they hate me), after all, so I can’t be bothered. It’s almost like you actually care about people or something. So uncool.”
…or am I off base here?
Speaking for myself, I have never noticed any functional difference between “too cool to care about (X)”, and “too dumb to care about (X)”.
philisyssis:
Looks like Christianity did its damage, though. It’s designed to take away your humanity and self-respect, but you can get them back.
Can I sue sillyphyssis? My eyeballs rolled so many times my visions gone funny.
This is what caught my eye in all of Phil’s drivel.This is NOT a red herring
This is actually precisely what makes her entire argument pointless.
She’s admitted on two posts that the morality is entirely subjective.
Which is a tacit admission that it’s impossible to define what’s moral to a christian(that is, what a ‘christian act’ means)
Yet she seems to be able to judge what is and isn’t a christian act.
Even though others have a biblical justification for their actions.
She can argue whether their interpretation of the bible is correct(good luck by the way, since she’s admitted to the contradictory nature of the bible) but not whether the act is christian.
What else isn’t a christian act?
The Crusades? The slaughter following the Reformation?
Anything that makes you uncomfortable with the selective use of the scriptures you chose to follow?
And what makes her determination of what christianity entails a more legitimate collection of beliefs than Reverends Graham, Hagee,Warren or the Westboro Church for that matter?
Oh, and speaking of herrings and strawmen, that bullshit about “using this example to paint all religionists with the same brush”( I paraphrase)…I could be wrong, but I didn’t actually see that anywhere on any post.
For someone asking for logical consistency, well….
coffeehound:
Actually, xe didn’t. Phil seemed to conclude that lovey-dovey Jesus verses canceled out I’ll kill ’em Jesus verses.
Hey, did that once, calling religion bullshit when one very nice guy admitted that he was a practicing evangelical xian.
I was the one who was a bit embarrassed – this is quebec, and if the person in front of you is not obviously an immigrant you tend to assume he/she is an ex- or a cultural cat-o-lick.