On Saturday morning there was a knock on my door. This is unusual since the condominium complex that I live in is not on a through street and hence the only people who knock on doors tend to be delivery people and I rarely order anything. When I opened the door, there were two women aged 65 or thereabouts standing there and I immediately guessed that they were Jehovah’s Witnesses.
After saying hello, one woman (let’s call her A) asked me whether I read the Bible and I said that I used to but no longer. She asked me why and I said that it no longer made any sense to me. The other woman (let’s call her B) then asked me whether I stopped reading because of the way that the world was these days and I said no, that was not it, but that I could not reconcile the idea of a god with what the laws of science said about how the world works. B was curious and asked me what scientific field I was referring to and I said physics.
She then asked whether it was not possible that God had created the universe and the laws. I said that it was possible to believe in a god that created the world and its laws once and then did not do anything at all after that but that seemed kind of pointless. I said that it was not possible to believe in a God who intervened in the world and answered prayers and so forth. She then asked me whether God had created human beings and I said that we were just an evolutionary byproduct, with no supernatural intervention necessary.
B seemed interested and said that she had studied science and anthropology in college and asked me if humans were still evolving. I said that we were. She then asked why we did not see apes becoming humans or fish walking out of the water these days. I immediately realized that she was yet another person who had been misled by the common cartoon of evolution as a linear process, with a fish walking out of the water, later becoming a monkey then an ape and then a human. In that view, we evolved from apes and her question made sense within that framework.
I said that that was not how evolution worked. That what was correct was that humans and apes had common ancestors. They seemed a little doubtful as to what I meant so to clarify I asked A if she had any siblings and she said yes. I then said she and her siblings had common ancestors and that was her parents. I said that she and her first cousins had common ancestors who were her grandparents and that she and her second cousins had common ancestors who were her great-grandparents. As her cousins became more and more distant, we had to go further and further back to reach the common ancestors.
I said that we should view apes as very distant cousins and that we did not evolve from them nor they from us, just as we did not evolve from our closer cousins. We were just different branches of the family tree. I said that we had to go back a million or so years to get to the common ancestor of humans and apes and had to go back about 80 million years to get to the common ancestor of humans and dogs. And that all living things evolved from a common ancestor labeled as LUCA (Last Universal Common Ancestor) somewhere around 4 billion years ago.
A said that that was not how she had been taught evolution fifty years ago and that maybe this explanation was a more recent one. I said that actually this was the original model that Charles Darwin provided over 150 years ago and his book had just one figure and that was this tree that showed this pattern of descent with modification. If people taught something different, that was a distortion. I really wish the cartoon of linear evolution gets retired because it is the source of so much misunderstanding.
A asked a good question as to why, if we were cousins with apes we could not interbreed and I said that as each branch of the tree evolved independently, at some point we become so different that interbreeding becomes impossible.
The two women seemed interested in what I said but I think also realized that perhaps I was a lost cause when it came to their message. But Jehovah’s Witnesses are persistent and tend to return even when told that there is no interest. I am curious if they will return. Before they left, they suggested that I look at the Jehovah’s Witnesses website and then we said our goodbyes. The whole conversation was very friendly.
I’ve had a fair few chats with the proselytising types; JWs and Mormons are the most common.
Sometimes, for more than an hour. I never invite them inside, but I’ve given them a cool drink on a stinking hot day.
But I am not fooled by their demeanour. They are cultists, plain and simple.
JWs in particular seem to the general populace to be anodyne, but that religious cult is anything but.
On a par with Scientologists and Christian Scientists, they are.
[It’s quite sad to think of the children brought up by them; but then I remember I was brought up Catholic]
Friendly JWs you got in your area. The last two gangs showing up here were arrogant and condescending.
With the first group I actually tried to have a discussion, only to be told that I just has not understood the bible even though I knew more about the more disagreeable parts of thenold testament than they. (Does the JW bible maybe not contain the bits about rape and slavery?)
The next pair showed up when I was actually quite busy and kept on prattling about how I felt about the state of the world and stuff instead of outright telling me who they were and what they wanted. When I told them I did not have time for them and made to leave they tried to call me back and continued their stream of empty words. I finally had enought I told them I’m not interested and that they should call me back when their overdue saviour finally showed up.
The latter part was probably unecessary and a bit mean, but I was really annoyed at that point and I might be getting more and more angry at the religious types as I grow older.
I have had the same experience with Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are generally polite and engage in conversation in good “faith”. Whilst it is clear I am not going to be converted and certainly I am not going to convert them we can say our goodbyes with no recriminations.
I remember one time the conversation topic wasn’t about biology or science but goverment; the polite young jehovah’s witness (shaperoned by an older fellow) asked me what I think about church role in the state. I automatically replied I think church and state should be strictly seperate (bear in mind this is in the UK, where there is no 1st ammendment and the head of state is also head of the church of England), to which they nodded along with.
It appears you can make common cause simply by having good manners.
John Morales: Good point about the JWs outside face and the way they treat their members.
Though I’m pretty sure my catholic upbringing was much better than growing up in that cult, I was lucky my folks were rather progressive, not believing that the old man in Rome spoke for god and even the local priest made it quite clear he believed good people go to heaven, not matter their faith or church membership. So leaving was no big deal for me.
Looking back does make me wonder why any of my progressive relatives and the priest with his rather heretic views stayed with that garbage fire of a church…
Interesting that these were older women instead of the usual young (male) “Elders”. I was just reading about how the purpose of door-to-door proselytizing is not to gain converts but to expose the young cultists to frustration, rejection and occassional abuse so as to reinforce the mindset of ‘us’ versus ‘them’ -- that the world outside the Cult oops Church is close-minded, intolerant and hostile. Chilling.
Damn, I slightly miss the says when door-knockers were somewhat prevalent in Adelaide, I haven’t seen any in perhaps ten years and I happily indulged them for as long as they were interested hanging out at the front door.
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#1 John
That reminds me of a very dismaying discovery I made of a friend of mine some 15-20 years ago. He was a nice bloke I met through a mutual hobby, he worked as a hospital orderly and had a young child or two. I considered him to be a pretty reasonable bloke until a particular evening having dinner at his place with several others.
At the start of that dinner, I was reminded that he was a christian when he said quite a reverent grace over dinner. Not a big deal, I was friends with various christians who occasionally said grace; this guy only stood out by the solemnity with which he delivered blahblah. And then during dinner this was reinforced a thousandfold -- his child of about 8 walked in and informed his parents (and of course the entire table) that he had failed a school biology. When prompted for details, he revealed that he had given ‘evolution does not exist’ and some stuff about Jesus in every question relating to evolution.
His parents responded with joy, praising him for his virtues while beaming with pride, while my opinion of the parents sank through the floor. They were young Earth creationists.
It’s always possible the kid recovered, but being soaked in nonsense that needs to be unlearned is not a good start.
It’s been a long time, but I sometimes got hit twice in a day. Not on a thru street,my dead end road ends just past my driveway.
The twice a day is probably because my driveway is in one township and my house is in another.
My only encounter with JW followers was at a bus stop. I did say that they were unlikely to convince me and when asked why -- I said because they teach things diametrically opposed to science and that I cant really reconcile a loving and just God with the world that we live in. Strangely enough they walked away instead of attempting to convince me otherwise.
These days I see them stand a little bit of distance from the entrance at the farmers market or at other events -- they dont seem to approach you , you have to approach them. I wonder if the laws have changed or they found this to be more bang for the buck. Dorr to Door canvassing also seems to have stopped.
In the past some proselytizers would get impressed when I said I read the Bible in Hebrew. They tended to leave me alone after that.
Three JWs turned up at my door once. Two of them were adult women. I assume one of them was the mother of the third, who looked to be about eight or ten. It was the child who addressed me, saying “Have you heard the good news about Jesus?”, or similar. I ignored the two morons grinning inanely either side of her, and crouched down to address her directly, smiling encouragingly.
“Yes, I have. The good news is Jesus is like Santa Claus -- a story grownups like these [wave to indicate adults behind her] tell to children like you to get them to do as they’re told. They really don’t want you to know that, but the good news is, one day soon you’ll hear it too, and you’ll be free… like me. I’m so happy I heard the good news. I hope you do too. Hang on, come back…”
Saw them coming round again in subsequent months. Never came to my door again.
Good dodge, sonofrojblake! I’ll have to try something like that.
Some of you seem very patient! I don’t know if I could have a long discussion.
Last time they came to my door, when they knocked I flung the door open and said breathlessly “I’m late for a wedding and I can’t find one of my shoes!” then slammed the door.
Which happened to be true! But, it’s probably not a permanent. solution, I can’t have a wedding to get to every day, and now I know where my shoes are.
It’s been a while since I’ve had any door knockers but I used to enjoy engaging with them if I had the time, especially the young Mormons. I was always polite and would never try to play ‘gotcha’, but would sincerely ask the difficult theological questions that caused me to abandon my religious upbringing. More than once it was them who ended the encounter and made excuses to leave. I hope I left them with seeds of doubt that would grow over time.
I used to work on film productions and once when we were filming on location on a city street there was a JW set up across the street in the background of the shot. Normally not a problem but she spent all her time staring directly at the camera which would have looked awkward in the movie. I had no right to ask her to move so instead I went over and casually stood in front of her to make it seem like we were having a conversation. She asked me what was happening and I explained that we were making a movie. She got very angry and said that there was absolutely nothing good in movies. I told there was one good thing in this movie. “What?” She demanded. “You are,” I said. She packed up and left in a huff.
Glad you had an enjoyable discussion. JWs are very good at humouring people. They are friendly, engaging, affable. There is a wall around their intellect though, and they don’t walk the streets to be converted away from their faith. The next time you speak to them their true colours will come out and you will realise exactly how wasted your reasoning was.
Noted file thirteen at #15. I can be quite intimidating when I want to be, which isn’t often.
I really hate when people try to insult my intellegence. It tempts me to become violent.
@15
A friend once had some JWs knock on her door and she made the mistake of telling them she was a lesbian and had no interest in their hateful religion. They spent the next month holding prayer vigils on the sidewalk in front of her house.
I have the impression that the JWs have given up door-to-door proselytising in the UK in recent years. Now, they hang around in twos or threes on the street, with a display offering “Free Bible classes”, but chatting to each other, so you’d have to interrupt them if you wanted to engage them!
JCL@6 is right about the closed and intolerant nature of the JW cult. One of the best events I’ve ever attended at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe (I live in Edinburgh) was a stand-up comedian who was brought up as a JW. She left years ago, but had to pretend to be still in the cult to help a friend (I don’t recall the details, I think it was somethnig to do with their practice of “disfellowshipping” anyone who leaves or challenges the cult authorities, who are all men, unsurprisingly). Her attempt at fooling the JW men she was dealing with failed, because she did not show the submissive behaviour expected of JW women -- she had got completely out of practice.
In Edinburgh the Mormons, Scientologists and some fundamentalist evangelical Christian group continue to pester strangers. I was approached by one young Mormon, who had a badge identifying him as “Elder” so-and-so -- I was in my late 60s at the time. “Elder?”, I said, “Who do you think you’re kidding, sonny?”.
Not entirely -- I’ve had them at my door once in the last year (also in Edinburgh). I think there’s a local group in my part of town who are a bit more active.
This religion is far more dangerous than it seems on its face and has been condemned by government inquiries in NZ. UK and Australia.
Why did you open the door?
If you were not expecting visitors, do not routinely get friendly unannounced visitors, and rarely order any delivery, then a random door knock is very likely to be trouble rather than beneficial-to-answer. At best, a pushy salesman or attempt at religious or political proselytization (as in fact was the case) likely to waste your time and at worst something more sinister, either private muscle (bad) or the kind who carry badges and guns and act under color of state authority (potentially much worse, especially if you are nonwhite, nonneurotypical, poor, or working class, so, in one or more of the groups they’re being paid and legally empowered to protect wealthy white neurotypical people and their privileged stations in life from).
Just be glad it wasn’t a couple of toughs waiting to shove their way in and start ransacking your place or something. Cops at least are (in some countries) constrained by a constitution, and in those places they’re a bit like vampires: if they don’t have a warrant they can’t just barge in uninvited, so you can ignore them until they go away, and you will probably be safe.
P.S. your “please fill in required fields: name, email” bug has come back, after a month or so of absence. Same fix as before: log out and log back in. Bloody annoying.
Such drama!
Wow.
Where I live, that would just be utter paranoia.
Pleasant suburbia, quiet neighbourhood, beautiful weather.
I grant there are places where that would be a reasonable stance; were I in one such, I’d think about moving.
People are people; I’ve learnt to speak to them person-to-person.
Results vary, but it’s really quite satisfying when they respond as human to human.
I get such regularly.
Mostly, to “raise awareness” for some charitable cause or other.
Next most likely, batteries/solar.
Next, the religious types.
(Never a couple of toughs looking to ransack, and never a worry about that)
I think I had JWs knocking on my door yesterday (there’s a Kingdom Hall only a couple of blocks away), but by the time I disentangled myself from my work computer and actually got to the door they had already moved on to the next house.
The last time I got into an extended discussion with JWs I introduced them at length to the concept of the Anthropic Principle. I doubt I made any inroads, but I can play the passive-aggressive ‘nice’ card to folks as well, and we can see who cracks first.
Bekenstein Bound @#21,
Why did I open the door?
Because I like to think of myself as a good neighbor.
I have elderly neighbors with serious health issues to whom I have said that they should contact me if they need any help. I have also had another neighbor knock on my door to ask to borrow some small items they had run out of. Yet another person had come to my unit by mistake looking for someone else and I was able to point him to the right place. Another neighbor came to my door to give me mail that I had accidentally left near the community mailboxes.
So there are many reasons to open the door, even if the need for it happens rarely. Having unwanted callers can be a nuisance but not enough to overcome my desire to be helpful to my neighbors if they should need it.
My JW visitor told me “but evolution is just a theory”.
I said “true, and so is gravity. Both effects are very well understood, both work every day, and both got us to the moon and back safely”.
(OK, I like to think I said that so succinctly. But what I less cogently said at the time was close enough.)
Well, I probably didn’t convince him, but I hope maybe something stuck with his young-teenage offspring who was dutifully accompanying him.
Hey, there’s some class privilege on display here, folks …
Mano Singham@24: It’s like your area is still how things were a few decades ago. If so, treasure it. While it lasts.
[OT]
Huh? Not any more than Mano shows.
(His area, my area… how you think mine is classier is left to the imagination, since we both answer the door without dread)
On a much lighter note, I heartily recommend “Everyone Else Burns” to anyone who can stream Channel 4 (UK commercial TV).
“Meet the Lewises: your average, everyday Manchester family who belong to an ultra-religious order. Oh, and they reckon the world’s going to end in the next 10 years.”
The protagonist is a child stuck in a Mormon family — though Mormon is almost never quite confirmed. Trying to grow up a good Mormon in a very secular society is so difficult with so much sinning and hypocrisy.
Honestly, it was amusing to mess with the JVs when I was younger. As I aged, the entertainment value wasn’t worth my time, so I politely dismiss them, unless they persist, in which case I become much less polite. The last time I saw them, I was in the process of treating the house for a stubborn flea infestation that was tormenting our poor dog, dressed in mask, goggles and gloves. That’s how I answered the door, and was the easiest JW dismissal in history.
Location privilege, actually. Some places are just… safe.
One of my favorite childhood memories is of the visit from some evangelist, probably not a JW but similar, who showed up at the door when my mom was at home. She was one of those people who knew her stuff and had short tolerance for fools. A doctor of Philosophy in later life, and the sort of person who reads stuff and remembers it. He started up on his fundy rant, and she countered not only with common sense but biblical references. I don’t recall the whole exchange but remember that she could, off the top of her head, remember enough chapter and verse to flummox him at every turn. The main memory is that, after a while he became quite agitated, and it ended with him literally red faced and in tears, flouncing down the path shouting that she was a wicked person bound for Hell.
For years I had a sign on my door gently warning evangelists that they would be wasting their time, and they tended to stay way. Every once in a blue moon one comes around here, and I firmly shoo them away. My wife just lies and tells them that she’s already a Catholic (she was until some time before adolescence) so it’s too late.
But we’ll never top my mother on this one.
Years ago I worked a contracting gig at a local newspaper. There were quite a few JWs who also did the same as it provided a good balance of work life with still having time to “witness” to the rubes. They were very polite and I enjoyed interacting with them as long as religion wasn’t the topic. I did have a few religious-based conversations and it was clear that they were cultists.
One of the folks I chatted with from time to time ended up being shunned by the community due to problems with gambling (at least that was what I was told). He ended up murdering his wife and three children and fled to Mexico. The did end up catching him and throwing him in prison. I often wonder how much they tried to help him before shunning him and if his family would still be alive if they had.