This email was long and particularly vapid, so I’m not going into detail on it, but I do include the whole damn thing below the fold for your entertainment. To summarize it briefly, my correspondent is a friendly Muslim who wants me to know that he accepts evolution…for other organisms, but not humans. Humans are special. To make his point, he provides Evidence of the Divine.
This evidence consists of long, practically obsessive descriptions of how beautiful Mohammed was. His eyes were large, with deep black irises and bright whites, and his eyelashes were long
and how good he smelled, I never smelled ambergris or musk or anything as fragrant as the scent of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ.
Also, he knew that horse hooves could strike sparks when galloping over stones, but there are no stones in the desert! How can you not be convinced of the existence of god and the falsity of evolution when you learn this?
He concludes by telling me how persuasive his argument is.
I want to let you know that I’ve shown this to scientists and they were utterly convinced that God didn’t exist and that we evolved from a common ancestor with primates. But after I showed them this proof that the Quran has Divine origins. They started to rethink their whole world view regarding God and atheism.
I include the entirety of his “proof” below, despite the fact that apparently it’s going to convince all of you to leave this site and go running to your nearest mosque. After all, how can you resist when Mohammed bats his lovely eyes at you?
Hi dear Dr. Myers,
First of all, I want to thank you for your contributions to science and human excellence. Without scientists this world would not be where it is today and I am extremely grateful for your dedication and hard work even if others do not show this gratitude, you’re extremely valuable to society and humanity.
Personally I believe that God created the universe including us human beings. However science today contradicts that God created mankind. I’m not like the ordinary creationists or fanatical Bible believers that I deny evolution entirely. There’s so much evidence that life originated from a single celled organism either from a common ancestor or multiple ones. I didn’t always believe in evolution nor understand it. To me the answer that God created it was enough and didn’t pay much thought into it. One day I was contemplating and as I was biking one night I figured. What if animals and all lifeforms evolved through a slow process and turned into different kinds of animals? I was like yes, God created everything but he never does anything in a supernatural fashion that happens very rarely. I was stunned as I just discovered evolution by just thinking about it. I then started to think more deeply about God, religion and whether we evolved from a common ancestor with primates. However, I did not come to that conclusion. I believe all life forms except human beings evolved from a natural process called evolution. And human beings also evolve, that’s why we have different races and survival instincts. However I don’t believe we originated from a common ancestor with primates. The reason why I will explain this to you shortly, why I have this conundrum. But I also want to propose the idea that science shouldn’t and doesn’t have to conflict with each other.
A very long time ago the scientific consensus was that the universe was eternal, no beginning and no end. This was backed by evidence, data and the entire scientific community backed this scientific model and theory. Which had a lot of weight behind it. However as we build more advanced systems and technology we could see the cosmic background radiation and we received more data and better data. We figured out that the universe did have a beginning and the big bang theory became the more dominant theory that replaced the earlier theory that the universe is eternal. This shows us that despite the fact that you have evidence and data, if it’s incomplete or we lack crucial information then the theory could be incorrect. So science always revises itself as you receive more data, better data and advance in technology. Each field of science is basically a frontier and it’s just like evolution itself evolving over time.
I want to present you evidence of the Divine and present to you why I believe there’s a God. I’m a Muslim so of course I’ll be presenting you the evidence from an Islamic perspective. However let’s not forget the contributions Muslim scholars brought forth to science since the Islamic golden age, without them we wouldn’t be here!
The Torah was sent to Moses and the Gospels to Jesus. And Allah says that the final messenger Prophet Muhammad was mentioned in both Heavenly books.
Surah Al-A’raf (7:157):“Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel…”
The Quran says that the Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and Gospel.
In fact he is mentioned BY NAME in the Torah.
(Song of Solomon 5:16):
חִכּוֹ מַמְתַּקִּים וְכֻלּוֹ “מַחֲמַדִּים” זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלָיִם
Chikko mamtakim v’khulo “MACHAMADIM”, zeh dodi v’zeh re’i, benot Yerushalayim.
”His mouth is sweetness itself,
and He is “altogether desirable”.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.”But in the translation they translated it to “altogether desirable” giving the literal meaning of the name. They have translated it to HIDE THE TRUTH of the Final Messenger of God.
Surah Al-Baqarah (2:146):
“Those to whom We gave the Scripture recognize him (the Prophet Muhammad) as they recognize their own sons. But some of them conceal the truth while they know it.”MACHAMADIM = Muhammadim the “im” stands for plural of respect. Like “Elohim”.
If you take the original Hebrew word “מַחֲמַדִּים” translate it. You will get Muhammad.
The Hebrew word מַחֲמַדִּים (machamadim) comes from the root ḥ-m-d (חמד), meaning “to desire” or “to cherish.” The word machamadim has a linguistic connection to the Arabic root ḥ-m-d (حمد), which is part of the name Muhammad, meaning “the praised one.”
What are the odds that the name of the man who, several thousand years later, would claim to be the final Prophet of God sent to all of humanity with divine revelation, would appear in the Hebrew Torah—and that his revelation would explicitly state that his name is mentioned there? What are the odds?
The Torah is 3000 years old. How is it even possible unless these scriptures are from the Divine.
However some will argue this is about Solomon and it’s not referred to Prophet Muhammad. Alright, then let’s see if that’s the case. Let’s analyze the text before.
Here there’s a description being made about a man:
10. My beloved is radiant and ruddy, outstanding among ten thousand.
11. His head is like the finest gold; his locks are wavy, black as a raven.
12. His eyes are like doves by streams of water, bathed in milk, mounted like jewels.
13. His cheeks are like beds of spices, yielding perfume. His lips are like lilies, dripping with myrrh.
14. His arms are rods of gold set with topaz. His body is polished ivory decorated with sapphires.
15. His legs are pillars of marble set on bases of pure gold. His appearance is like Lebanon, choice as its cedars.
16. His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely (maḥamaddim). This is my beloved, this is my friend, daughters of Jerusalem.If we place this description in ChatGPT what it has to say about such a description we get this result from it:
This passage paints a picture of someone with extraordinary beauty and nobility, with each description capturing both physical elegance and an almost otherworldly aura. If we were to visualize this person based on the description:Radiant and Ruddy – A fair complexion with a slight reddish undertone, giving a healthy, glowing appearance. This reflects a vibrant and lively look, with skin that appears luminous and full of life.
Finest Gold Head & Wavy Black Locks – Strong, regal features with thick, flowing black hair, shining like polished gold in the light.
Eyes Like Doves by Water, Bathed in Milk, Mounted Like Jewels – Deep, dark black eyes, clear and luminous, reflecting wisdom, serenity, and kindness. Their shine, like water reflecting light, gives them a striking presence, making them both gentle and captivating.
Cheeks Like Beds of Spices & Lips Like Lilies – A fragrant, smooth face, with soft yet commanding lips that are delicate and naturally sweet.
Arms of Gold & Body of Ivory with Sapphires – A strong, well-formed physique, smooth and radiant, with a noble presence that exudes both strength and grace.
Legs Like Marble, Set on Pure Gold – Tall, graceful, and solid, with an aura of dignity and elegance.
Appearance Like Lebanon, Choice as Cedars – Majestic and awe-inspiring, like the towering and noble cedars of Lebanon, embodying both strength and beauty.
Mouth Full of Sweetness, Altogether Lovely – His words and presence are irresistibly kind, wise, and full of charm, drawing people in with an undeniable grace.
This description reflects someone whose beauty and nobility are unparalleled. It describes a figure of both outward splendor and inward perfection, whose presence is so noble and striking that he could only be compared to a great king or a Prophet. Such a person embodies the highest ideals of strength, purity, and elegance—a rare balance of power and gentleness that commands both love and reverence.10. Prophet Muhammad is often described as white and reddish (ruddy) and radiant by his companions. “Outstanding among ten thousand.” When he conquered Mecca his companions were exactly ten thousand.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca
11. It refers to his hair as black and wavy. This is definitive proof that this isn’t about Solomon because he was an old man, every depiction of him you see him with curly grey or white hair and a huge large beard. Jewish people also genetically have always had curly hair. So this definitely cannot be referred to Solomon. However Prophet Muhammad was described in Hadith as having long wavy black hair.
12. His Eyes Were Dark and Had a Natural Liner:
Jabir ibn Samurah (رضي الله عنه) said:
“The Messenger of Allah ﷺ had a broad face with a slight roundness. His eyes were wide and had a reddish hue. His eyelashes were long.” (Musnad Ahmad 20829, Muslim 2339)His Eyes Had Depth and Contrast
Abu Huraira (رضي الله عنه) said:
“The Messenger of Allah ﷺ had a white complexion with a slight redness. His eyes were intensely black, and the whites of his eyes were very white.” (Shama’il al-Tirmidhi 7)His Eyes Had a Natural Glow
Hind ibn Abi Hala (رضي الله عنه) said:
“His eyes were large, with deep black irises and bright whites, and his eyelashes were long.” (Shama’il al-Tirmidhi)13. His Cheeks Were Smooth and Beautiful
Hind ibn Abi Hala (رضي الله عنه) said:
“His face shone like the moon. His cheeks were smooth. His mouth was finely shaped.”
(Shama’il al-Tirmidhi)His Scent Were Full of Blessings
Anas ibn Malik (رضي الله عنه) said:
“I never smelled ambergris or musk or anything as fragrant as the scent of the Messenger of Allah ﷺ.”Hind ibn Abi Hala (رضي الله عنه) described the Prophet ﷺ, saying:
“His mouth was finely shaped (واسع الفم), and his teeth were bright and slightly spaced.”
This aligns with the “lilies” metaphor, as lilies are soft, symmetrical, and elegant.
(Shama’il al-Tirmidhi)14. Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) said:
“The Messenger of Allah ﷺ had large hands and feet. His limbs were strong and well-built. When he walked, he leaned forward as if he were descending from a height.”
(Tirmidhi 3638)15. Anas ibn Malik (رضي الله عنه) said:
“The Messenger of Allah ﷺ walked with a distinct, confident stride, as if the earth folded under his feet. I have never seen anyone walk faster or with more purpose.”
(Shama’il al-Tirmidhi)If we analyze this entire chapter, it starts with a woman reciting longingly about her Beloved. It seems to be a conversation as someone starts answering her. Someone answers her and starts telling her about their Beloved. And it ends with “This is my beloved, this is my friend, daughters of Jerusalem.” It responds with “daughters of Jerusalem”, so this can’t be herself or another woman. As they respond with “daughters” as if to speak from authority like a father. The One answering seems to be God and he’s talking about someone who is Beloved to him. It clearly mentions Prophet Muhammad by name, and describes his physical attributes. But what’s also interesting is that it refers to him as “my beloved”. Which means Habibullah and that means the Beloved of God, which is another name for Prophet Muhammad. It also says “this is my friend” or Khalilullah (Friend of God). Which is also another title for Prophet Muhammad. This chapter in the Torah is clearly a reference to Prophet Muhammad in the Torah.
I also want you to see this video titled:
“Arabian Horse creates a beautiful spark using it’s Hoofs”
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ruRzHcphGyYAs you can see horses can create sparks with their hooves in extremely rare situations when it is done at the right angle and specific way and time. The Quran speaks about this.
“By the racing horses, panting, (1)
And striking sparks of fire (with their hooves), (2)”
– Surah Al-Adiyat (100:1-3)This wasn’t known scientifically until recent times. Also it’s an extremely rare occurrence as everything has to be just right for horses to create these sparks. You might argue perhaps they saw this and observed it themselves. But the Prophet Muhammad lived in a desert and there were horses but there was no stone pavement for the horses to create these sparks. This suggests that the author of the Quran could not have been Prophet Muhammad ﷺ but is Divine scripture as it had access to scientific knowledge unavailable at the time.
The Prophet also predicted the rise of terrorism and the Khawarij (outlaw rebels) who kill innocent people in the name of our religion.
An extraordinary Hadith that predicted the rise of ISIS. This hadith is from “Kitab al-Fitan” (The Book of Trials), authored by Imam Abu Abdullah Nu’aym ibn Hammad al-Marwazi, 843 CE, a renowned scholar of hadith.
The book in the image is titled “Kitab al-Fitan” (The Book of Trials), authored by Imam Abu Abdullah Nu’aym ibn Hammad al-Marwazi, a renowned scholar of hadith.
The excerpt on the page discusses signs and events that will occur near the end of times, as narrated in Islamic traditions. The specific text shown is a hadith attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه). Here’s a rough translation of the content:
“When you see the black flags, stay on the ground and do not move your hands or feet. Then, a group of weak people will emerge whose hearts are like iron. They will have no loyalty to any agreement, and they will call to the truth but are not of it. Their names are kunyas (nicknames), and their lineage is attributed to cities. Their hair will be long like women’s hair. They will remain divided among themselves until Allah brings the truth from whoever He wills.”
This is a warning against groups who falsely claim to act in the name of Islam but deviate from its teachings, and it describes certain traits of such groups.
The book is a well-known collection of narrations focusing on eschatology (signs of the Day of Judgment).
361342667_6827140713983109_8710295362244574271_n.jpg361143213_6827140690649778_3250448244284280830_n.jpg
This Hadith has been in our books for centuries roughly 1,100 years in written format and passed down via oral tradition before that.“There will be groups of people who will emerge from the East and will cause great harm to the Muslim community. They will be misguided and they will misguide others. When they appear, do not go near them, for they will be among the worst of people.” (Sahih Muslim, 1064a)
“Beware! There will be people who will come after you, who will recite the Qur’an, but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through the game, and they will kill the believers and spare the idolaters. If I meet them, I will kill them as the people of ‘Ad were killed.”
(Sahih Bukhari, 6924; Sahih Muslim, 1066)“Do not harm the people of the dhimmah (non-Muslim subjects in an Islamic state), for they are under the protection of Allah and His Messenger.”
(Sunan Abu Dawood, 3052)“Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor a non-combatant, nor an old man, nor a hermit in a monastery. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees, nor drown a goat, nor burn the enemy’s houses.” (Sahih Muslim, 1731)
“There will be people who will emerge from among you, and they will spread confusion and division. They will try to stir up strife and they will cause harm. Beware of them, for they will be the worst of people under the heavens.” (Sahih Muslim, 2917)
“In the last times there will be people who will speak with the best of speech, but their hearts will be the worst of hearts. They will be the worst of creatures.” (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 3055)“There will be people who will speak with words that are pleasing to the ears, but their actions will be corrupt and they will lead others astray.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Hadith 349)
“Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded.” – Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
I want to let you know that I’ve shown this to scientists and they were utterly convinced that God didn’t exist and that we evolved from a common ancestor with primates. But after I showed them this proof that the Quran has Divine origins. They started to rethink their whole world view regarding God and atheism. Because they know that every scientific model and theory has merit and it has weight but if it’s incomplete and we don’t have enough data we could have it all wrong.
History has shown us that scientific models evolve as we receive more data or better data. Other theories replace it and previous theories are proven to have been incorrect while the scientific consensus was that it was true according to the evidence they had at the time. So science always revises itself and corrects itself. That doesn’t mean that there’s no merit in evolutionary theory. I do not reject the idea that all life forms except human beings came from a single common ancestor or multiple ones. And later evolved into dinosaurs, animals, insects, trees, plants and mushrooms.
I find that type of writing absolutely impenetrable. Even if I wanted to read it, there’s something in it (Syntax/Grammatical construction?) that makes my brain freeze up.
Years ago, I tried to read the Quran and faced the same problem – There didn’t seem to be any there there. Nothing for me to focus on, just word after word after word. A bit like our new friend, generative AI.
I think the next line here is “get up in them woods.”
I was stunned as I just discovered evolution by just thinking about it.
That’s as far as I got. I am gobsmacked to be in the presence of such an out-of-the-box thinker. This once in a millennium genius figured it all out while riding his bike at night. God is indeed great.
rx808@1:
“Years ago, I tried to read the Quran and faced the same problem – There didn’t seem to be any there there. Nothing for me to focus on, just word after word after word. A bit like our new friend, generative AI.”
That’s not a coincidence. Biblical/Quran style writing – multiple authors putting incoherent contradictory oral traditions to paper on the assumption that they’re true and getting the results all smooshed together – is essentially the prototype for LLM “AI” writing.
Robert, exactly!
“Biblical/Quran style writing […] is essentially the prototype for LLM “AI” writing.”
God is Great! Islam is true!
LLM “AI” writing is in the Quran!
Proof of God!
How else could The Messenger of Allah ﷺ have possibly known about this?
(Take that, infidels!)
—
[More seriously, LLM is not actually multiple authors putting incoherent contradictory oral traditions to paper]
Ahhh, OK. I think we can all agree to that.
Oh for sanity’s sake not this
I didn’t expect to find our domestically produced bullshit reaching to your inbox PZ
Welp i guess this can be considered a sneak peek into the kind of logic being used here to propagate science denialism at cultural scale.. and the vast majority of the people here believe every word in this email to be true, head to tail
oh except for the part where he said he doesn’t deny evolution, this is mostly viewed as heresy too
it’s so hopeless here
Citations needed. Was there really a lot of scientific evidence for it? Then why did you not cite any? If this was a very long time ago, then isn’t it true that the idea of scientific evidence was not even thoroughly developed?
Isn’t it instead true that was a pre-scientific idea which went unchallenged until the accumulation of scientific knowledge, and the technology to acquire that knowledge, advanced to a state where people could even ask the right questions, and figure out which experimental data would address those questions?
‽⸘‽⸘‽⸘‽⸘‽⸘‽⸘‽⸘
The universe is eternal: this is a mind-boggling idea. If the universe was always here, then where did it come from?
The universe had a beginning: this is a mind-boggling idea. What existed before that beginning?
The proper conclusion: the human mind is easily boggled.
MACHAMADIM – a type of nut.
None of the Gospels were written before Jesus’ alleged life and death.
Numbers, how do they work? When you say to someone, “You are one in a million,” you are essentially saying, “There are 1400 people just like you – in China.“
Well, the purpose is not to reason it out, just to lose one’s sense of self in endless repetition: godisgreat gratisgod godisgreat greatisgod etc etc ad infinitum (et nauseam).
Here’s an example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_of_Saint_Teresa
someone enjoying it a bit too much, ohlala.
I couldn’t read that email either. my eyes started skipping over sentences, then whole paragraphs then I gave it up as a waste of time. And it was a waste of that guy’s time too, although I guess he’s copy-pasted most if not all of it from someone else. It’s just so boring.
PZ you didn’t have to share the torment with us.
What do apologists think they’re getting from that line of reasoning? Well, other than some passing technological novelty that is already easily refuted and will ultimately date their apologetics firmly in the 2020s.
If we approach a simulacrum of a gullible individual who always tries to give nonconfrontational answers and we ask them what this means, surely we will get the inspired truth.
All I’m getting from this is that apparently Muhammad was fuckin hot. If I saw someone like way back when, I’d probably join his religion too.
As stated: “But after I showed them this proof that the Quran has Divine origins. They started to rethink their whole world view regarding God and atheism.”
As happened: “Yes, very interesting. I’ll have a closer look later.” (Leaves room, puts letter in trash.)
Ben @ #16 — I have only read what PZ quoted in the intro but those bits seemed similar to The Song of Songs (or Solomon).
Ah yes, proof from “dude he’s so fucking hot!”
Unlike some of your commentators I have read the Qur’an and in translation its not particularly heavy going and mostly boils down to one long argument for the existence of God. It does lose a lot in most of the modern translations and the original Arabic is much richer.
Your correspondent has overlooked a key verse in the Qur’an, chapter 29 verse 20, where Muslims are told “Say: “Travel in the land and see how (Allah) originated creation, and then Allah will bring forth (resurrect) the creation of the Hereafter (i.e. resurrection after death). Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.” It says God created but it also commands to see how, in other words to enquire. You could argue that is exactly what the great Muslim philosophers and scientist of the past were doing.
He also overlooks the proto-evolutionary ideas of Muslim philosopher scientists who saw man as an intelligent animal who came about in part by the implantation of human soul. This borrows from Greek ideas where a gradation of being came about by the infusing of first a “mineral soul”, then a “vegetable soul”, then an “animal soul” followed by a rational “human soul” which endowed man with the ability to reason and receive revelation. One Arabic classification hierarchy describes humans, (in transliteration), as “hayawan natiq”, meaning thinking or rational animal. At least one philosopher, Ibn Khaldun, also saw a potential for some humans to evolve beyond mere rational animals.
Some of them came close to Darwin’s ideas and certainly developed ideas which are seen in the early European enlightenment. Observations on food webs, adaptation to specific environments, adaptation to avoid predators ensuring survival. None thought of Darwin’s breakthrough idea of natural selection. One even produced a treatise arguing for the superiority of black men over white. No points for guessing his skin colour and his opinion of his Arab amd Persian contemporaries.
As for his use of arguments that the coming of Muhammad was predicted in earlier scriptures he is using a technique used by biblical scholars of reading current events back into historical scriptural accounts. Similar arguments are used to argue for old testament proofs that Jesus was the Messiah when in fact the later new testament texts were written using elements of earlier stories of the prophets as a framework. His claim that nobody knew that horses shoes struck sparks on stones is a case in point. You could argue on that basis that Stan Jones was divinely inspired when he wrote the famous lines about cowboys chasing the devil’s herd in Ghost Riders in the Sky.
An Islamic missionary that tries converting others by making them fall in love with beautiful ikemen Muhammad. An interesting tactic for sure
I will note there is plenty of stone in the Arabian peninsula including some hard enough to cause sparks (e.g., chert or quartz). A question might be when iron horse shoes were first used there (iron striking a hard rock is most likely to cause sparks).
“…I’ve shown this to scientists…”
Dunno about anyone else but I’m convinced…
Who, and where, are these ‘scientists’ to whom such pious twits (from whichever persuasion – they all claim it) have such apparently easy access? The ancient trope of the keen amateur stumping the learned men…
Er, I guess that means Muhammad or whoever here must have been an Aussie riding horses in Sturt’s Stony Desert then?
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturt_Stony_Desert
Poor sheep and cattle!
Hmm.. are Gibbber plains found only in Oz? Er, nup :
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_pavement
Hmm.. although further googling finds that the stonier bits might be called Hamada rather than Regs?
Plus :
Source : https://desert-stories.com/erg-reg-hamada-types-of-terrain-in-the-desert/
(Bold original.)
Actually, from what I recall Rocky areas are pretty common in deserts and actually more typical of them than the dunes, sand seas / ergs we typocially imagine thinking deserts. Of course, that’s thinking hot deserts rather than actually typical desert which on Earth is mostly Antarctica meaning icy plain the odd dry valleys aside.
PS. Come to think of it if deserts are defined by lack of rainfall pretty much every planet and world with a solid surface is currently all desert with the exception only of some areas of Titan where it rains liquid (m)ethane..
I’ve heard it said that camels also have beautiful eyes. Does that mean they also have a divine exemption from evolution?
So this Muslim’s most convincing major argument for Islam is that
SolomanMuhammad was famously a very hot, sexually attractive man? I mean, nice but I’m not sure what the likes of the Taliban, Ayatollahs and Mullahs are going to make of that!Um, what?! Firstly, obvs Solomon wasn’t always an old man or depicted as such. See :
https://www.adverts.ie/children-babies/king-solomon-a-ladybird-bible-book/5184294
Plus
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1445696987/the-child-of-the-temple-ladybird-vintage
I had that specific one as a kid so can assure you it was about a young Solomon as a boy hearing God and asking for wisdom..
In addition to lots more :
https://www.shutterstock.com/search/king-solomon?image_type=illustration
Er, wait, why not? How does that logically follow? Women can’t say “daughters of Jerusalem” now for some reason?
Which species of lily? Lilies plural so multiple entire plants, roots, leaves and all allover his face? Some lilies are toxic if consumed .. so yeah, a bit like reigion there. Beds of spices? So ganular with different fine dried seeds or bits of bark or? So anyhow
SolomonMuhammad is according to that some sort of weird mutant Flora- human hybrid?Yeah, metaphor how does it work huh? Poetic language packed with allusions and metaphors and very much NOT literal but to be taken literally selectively when it suits and also stretched painfully thinly to fit whatever nonsense argument can be made becoz fundamentalists, sigh.
So, Muhammed was a stunning and utterly fabulous drag queen? Who knew? Upon hearing this, all scientists were suddenly convinced that he was absolutely divine and that the entirety of human evolution was false……And then everyone clapped.
garydargan@19–
There’s a ridiculously obsessive 1869 book by George Fleming, Horse shoes and horse shoeing: their origin, history, uses, and abuses (PDF) — 685 pages of it! — which goes into this verse of the Koran among other lines of evidence that Arabs at the time of Muhammad shod their horses.
The specific chapter of the Koran is a description of Allah blessing fighters before a battle, the panting of the horses, the striking of sparks (many translations add “from their hooves” but this is notin the original), the rising cloud of dust, the tactic of attacking at dawn. This passage is a description of experiences known to Muhammad and his soldiers. If it had described something unequivocally from the future such as, say, a helicopter or a bazooka or a drone, that would be impressive. But describing the use of a technology that goes back to at least 400 BC and was probably commonplace in Muhammad’s time and place is not exactly a resounding argument for prophecy.
Plus, Muhammad’s military campaigns ran up and down the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula because that’s where the settlements are. The geography there is stony. Very, very stony.
A very long time ago the scientific consensus was that the universe was eternal…
First, as others have already said here, “a long tine ago” there really wasn’t much of a “scientific consensus” on anything. And second, as for a non-scientific consensus, or consensus of learned people, I’ve never heard of any culture whose surviving writings or folktales didn’t include some sort of Creation story. They may not have all said the world was created from nothing, but they did say it was created, and not eternally pre-existing.
Also, most of the myths and folktales I’ve heard of include at least some talk of the world ending, whether or not they make a big deal out of it like Christians do with Revelation. So right there we know this guy has no clue what he’s talking about.
Oh and Daughters-of-Jerusalem is a rather weird and awkward name to call anyone let alone a man..
Oh and :
Is oddly specific. I mean, you can drown other creatures (& people?) but just not goats?* You can slaughter and eat and scape- goats but just not drown them? Huh? Why? People going round deliberately drowning goats was a big issue at the time that needed to be directly called out there? Sounds improbable.
Plus you can kill hermits but just not when they are in monasteries? Cut down gymnosperms eg conifers, cycads, yews, but not angiosperms, eg fig trees, palms, junipers. All of which is meant to prove, what?
Incidentally :
Not exactly :
Source : https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4261.htm
Its got some letters in common sure, but it ain’t Muhammad or even a name.
This is also debunked here :
Source : https://amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/q37_mohammed_bible/
Admittedly another religious source so possibly with own axe to grind but still.
Also here :
Also :
So NOT a woman addressing God as the e-mail writer wrongly claims.
Plus :
Source : https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/9484/is-the-name-of-prophet-muhammad-mentioned-in-the-bible
Notably, this shows that the emailers claim has already been circulated and debunked and isn’t new. (To be charitable I guess maybe that Muslim emailer might not have known that.)
Finally,
I’d like to know who those scientists (plural?!) were and what field of science they were practicing because I’m very skeptical about that claim! I will note that the Muslim emailer doesn’t say they then converted to islam afterwards but even leaving that aside, nah. Citation and specifics badly needed.
.* Hang on a sec, using th emailers “logic”here, does that Muslim prohibition on drowning goats explains why Kristi Noem shot her pet goat dead instead of drowning it like normal people do?! Oh noezz!!!1ty!! She must be a secret Muzzzlimmmm!!!1ty!!1!
.** So, Cardassian is Turkish then? Gul Dukat = Rose Dukat? Huh.
Come to think of it, I wonder whether they consider Yews as “fruit bearing” despite being gymnosperms and cone-bearing given their very berry-like and edible Arils? (Atleats some Yew species are found in SW Asia.)
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxus_baccata#Description
Scroll up for photo -does look very berry-ish if not technically a fruit.
I mean it wouldn’t be botantically accurate to callit afruit but incommon non-botanical usage.. anyhow.
Oh & dóh! I should’ve remembered that junipers are also actually gymnosperms with berry-like “fruits” that aren’t actual fruits as such too, sigh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniper
In fairness, I was thinking of that Monty Python – Life of Brian scene – with the hermit and the juniper bushes with juniper berries which were all he had to bloody eat which doesn’t sound like much of a diet but better than the Jordan Peterson all meat one.
Reginald Selkirk @ 10
Muhammed genuinely believed the gospels were written by Jesus because he knew nothing. He also said Jesus did not die, it was a trick Allah played on the pagan audience.
He also believed Mary -mother of Jesus- was Miriam (the names are written the same in arabic) of the old testament, from the family of Moses, more than a millennium earlier.
It goes on like this through the koran.
.
I had a period when I tried to learn about islam and understand it better, but it is even more disappointing in terms of coherence than christianity.
My favv religious tract is the Necronomicon, by Abdul Al Hasrad. Unfortunately, eveyone that reads it go permanently insane. The ‘Laundry’ tried to use AIs to process it, but it did not work either.
Oh, and another thing about this guy’s apparent fetish about Mohammed’s looks: didn’t Mohammed himself insist that no “graven images” be made of himself? Isn’t that one of the reasons why Muslims aren’t all that fond of Mohammed being depicted in cartoons? It sounds to me like Mohammed didn’t want anyone to think his hair or skin color was relevant to anything at all.
@Raging Bee #35
It’s funny really. Or rather sad. Muhammad forbade making images of him so he wouldn’t become an idol to worship. Now of course the believers completely turned that around to Muhammad being way too holy to make depictions of and doing so being blasphemy. They somehow managed to turn him into an idol anyway. Believers (and not just the religious kind) always crave something to project their belief on, banning the practice will never work. That’s why there’s factually no difference between Catholics, who cram their churches full of depictions of the holy and protestants who don’t, they’re idolaters at heart both.
“That’s why there’s factually no difference between Catholics, who cram their churches full of depictions of the holy and protestants who don’t, they’re idolaters at heart both.”
That’s about as bad a justification as one could essay. Very stupid.
That there is a (1) point of similarity doesn’t mean there are zero other differences.
(They both shit their digested food, too. So, no diff!)
—
FWIW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic%E2%80%93Protestant_relations
(Is Islam just the very same? People of the Book, after all…)
Nurse, grampa Morales’ is on the computer again, writing nonsense.
Not nonsense.
Topic is Islamic email.
You wank on about how Catholics and Protestants are idolaters and not different at all.
(One of us is surely writing nonsense)
BTW, has a hanging grocer’s apostrophe.
(grampa Morales notices these things, O pimply-faced youth)
Oh, come on.
Who is your nurse, Augustus, and why do you appeal to them?
(Are you suggesting you are somehow in a managed-care facility? Sure seems like it)
I don’t not got that. Could you please wrote another ten timeses and tell me where my grammar’ and choice’ of words goned wrong?
Not any of that. Your supposedly clever claim that Catholics and Protestants are just the same, as indeed are all believers, because idolatry is a thing.
How a verbal description constitutes idolatry (which was your point of bebouchment) leads to that claim is not actually specified.
But sure, care to provide an inference chain to try to sustain that?
From weird Islamic email to how idolatry means Catholics and Protestants differ not at all.
(To go wrong, you’d have to have started right, no?)
—
Anyway. Fine.
Catholics and Protestants and Believers (and not just the religious kind) are all just the same.
That’s your point.
Got it.
No, that’s not my point. But I know you are not here to actually discuss anything, you are just here to be a childish contrarian. so whatever.
I think the take-home point here is that the hotter the men in your books, the more holy they are.
Someone send this guy a link to the oeuvre of Chuck Tingle…
AugustusVerger.
Could you give your definition of ‘idol’ please? I got down my 8th edition Oxford Concise Dictionary and it gives four meanings 1) an image of a deity etc. used as an object of worship. 2) Bibl. A false god. 3) a person or thing that is the object of excessive or supreme adulation . The fourth refers to a phantom.
I believe that the Abrahamic religions would use ‘idol’ in senses 1 and 2. You seem to use it in sense 3 inasmuch as Christians ‘idolise’ Jesus. Catholics distinguish between most saints, whom they venerate, Mary, who is intermediate and gets something that they call hyperdulia, and their god whom they worship.The holiness of images varies and I’ve seen High Anglicans with images which their Low brethren would consider idols in the first sense. The eastern Orthodox churches definitely see their icons as objects of worship!
Personally I believe that most people worship what they see in a mirror.
Congratulations to anyone who has the patience to read all of this!
In my preference for bacon and realization of false consciousness as a Marxist fetish, I see idols in a different light though confined within my cave…an ideological light flickering from behind. I feel language bewitches if one focuses on forum idols as in @46. The mind plays many tricks. Degrees of Bacon would land on 4 such tricks, a very Jungian number that!
Suffice to say “idol” may mean more than mere graven image sorts of things, though such a disdain by Muslims may harken back to Musa inventing the first instance of Goldschläger. Yeah that was a thing. Look it up in your Torah.
Christians love their gilded fish chains and crosses, with or without a dead tortured dude. That’s a sort of idolatry. Not the broader shades of Bacon kind.
@26 StevoR – So this Muslim’s most convincing major argument for Islam is that Muhammad was famously a very hot, sexually attractive man?
I guessing there aren’t any virgins left in heaven. Muhammad sounds like the type of guy who wouldn’t be sharing his virgins. All those martyrs are going to be very disappointed when they get to heaven.
And I would like to commend all those who read through that dribble and I hope it didn’t cause anyone to suffer dain bramage.
If we had instead evolved from some sort of octopus, this guy would have written an equivalent ode on the beauty of each and every sucker of Mohammed (and his eyes!) and how it proved God.
[So at least we should be thankful that the above is as “short” as it is.]
I think this guy just followed me on Mastodon, or someone just like him. He goes by @NoDesign@mastodon.social. His account dates back all the way to February 9th of this year and has a whopping 3 posts so far, all of them hawking his free ebook.
tl:dr
@50.Big Boppa : Dare I suggest sending him the link here or at least to the links debunking him from eg # 30? Morbidly curious about what he’d make of it here.
.***
Plus Pluto which at some parts of its orbit and some time its in 248 of our years long year gets massive snowfall as its nitrogen atmsophere freezes and snows out onto its surface or so I’ve heard. How could I forget that?! Although, for most of the time Pluto would still count as a very cold desert indeed.
.***
@49. ahcuah : His divine(~ly hot) beak made of Crinoids in that case maybe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crinoid
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t horses’ hooves only strike sparks when they’re shod?
He is correct that the -im suffix indicates a collective noun, but the rest of those assertions are pure nonsense. Moses did not get the Torah, he got ten commandments. (Or eleven depending on how you count) Jesus did not get the gospels, seeing as they were written after he was dead.
The Song of Solomon is about a woman in a walled garden receiving oral sex from her beloved, not macadamia nuts or Mohammed.
That homoerotic description of his prophet sounds very similar to Misirlou.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3REQDifCXxw&pp=ygUIbWlzZXJsb3U%3D