Some journalists need to STFU


Editors seem to love to publish waffling centrist apologists for journalistic weaseling, and I hate it. Here’s some opinion columnist saying The media slant on Joe Rogan and covid has been wrong. Journalists must do better. He thinks journalism has been too hard on that hack.

In my experience, a journalist who admits uncertainty and owns up to mistakes is ultimately more trusted, not less so. (Even opinion writers should be accountable to facts and alive to the unknowable.)

I agree. So what misstatement of the facts did CNN make?

For this reason, CNN is wrong to double down on its smug reports that vaccine-skeptic podcaster Joe Rogan treated his coronavirus with “horse dewormer.” He did not, as nearly as I can determine. Rogan’s covid-19 was treated, he said, with a number of medicines, including the anti-parasite drug ivermectin — the same medication that former president Jimmy Carter’s foundation has used to fight the scourge of river blindness in Africa and Latin America. Like many drugs, ivermectin also has veterinary applications.

CNN reported that Rogan had treated his infection with a cocktail of glop — antibodies and ivermectin and vitamins, and who knows what else. That is accurate. That’s what Rogan himself announced. He was dosing himself with an anti-parasitic drug to treat a virus. This is a problem, because it spreads the word that maybe taking random drugs is an effective way to handle a specific disease, and maybe this columnist hasn’t noticed, but there are people refusing to take the effective treatment because they’re doping themselves with horse dewormer or betadine. We did not mock Rogan enough.

Further, talking about river blindness is a dishonest distraction. It’s irrelevant. Did Joe Rogan have onchocerciasis? He had COVID-19.

So far, there isn’t a lot of evidence that ivermectin is a good anti-covid therapy, and federal agencies have warned people who hear about the drug not to consume a paste intended for livestock. But that doesn’t mean Rogan ate horse dewormer. You don’t fight disinformation with disinformation. Not if you’re a good reporter.

A good reporter would explain that Rogan was misleading his audience by taking horse dewormer seriously as a treatment for a virus. They’d also mention that the evidence is in: ivermectin is not a good anti-COVID-19 therapy.

All we have here is a hack writing dodgy crap to sow doubt. Here he is talking about how the vaccines are “new” and might have “unforeseen effects”.

CNN’s pundits might not have sneered at Rogan if he had toed the line on coronavirus vaccines — even if it is a line that is underinformed and overconfident. I yield to no one in my enthusiasm for these vaccines. They are wonderfully effective, and the speed of their development was a scientific triumph. However: The vaccines are new. There are unanswered questions about long-term effectiveness and potentially unforeseen effects. And even vaccinated people keep dying — albeit at much lower rates. It’s understandable that some — such as Rogan — will air doubts. CNN shouldn’t be stigmatizing their natural skepticism.

What I learned from this is that David Von Drehle, the author, is a marginal crank and not a reasonable source (he got his start as a sports writer, and evolved into a political pundit — he has zero qualifications in science or medicine). I’ll remember that name.

Comments

  1. cartomancer says

    Isn’t it funny how all the right-wing pot-stirrers just happen to have “natural skepticism” and “justified doubts” that coincide exactly with the transparent misinformation campaign that the organised fascistosphere is orchestrating? I mean, what are the odds?!

    Meanwhile the overwhelming consensus of actual medical opinion is just an “underinformed and overconfident line”. Which is, nevertheless, so convincing that our esteemed author “yields to no-one” in their enthusiasm for vaccination. No-one, it seems, except for a manipulative podcaster (I think – is that what he does? Radio host? Something like that) with no evidence at all behind him.

  2. Dunc says

    Funny how these people never seem to exhibit the same concern that, since SARS-CoV-2 is also new, it too might turn out to have unforseen long-term effects (beyond those that we already know about). I know which one I’m more worried about…

  3. moarscienceplz says

    I’ve been thinking for some time that maybe I should subscribe to a newspaper to ‘support journalism’, but which one? I’m still furious at the NYT for the Judith Miller-Dick (DICK) Cheney shit, so fuck them. Maybe the WaPo? Then, they post this sixty year old toddler’s diaper contents as an opinion worthy of my attention. So, uh, no thanks.

  4. numerobis says

    The counter is that there’s historically been some reticence among worm sufferers to use ivermectin (there’s a lot of distrust of medical experts in the relevant areas), so disparaging it as horse dewormer is unproductive.

  5. raven says

    PZ is way too easy on this idiot crackpot.

    However: The vaccines are new.

    No they aren’t. Vaccines are centuries old. Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine in 1798. The newest vaccines are just variations and improvements on the older ones. The number of vaccination doses given are 414 million USA and a huge 6.9 billion worldwide. If there were side effects and hazards, we would know by now. Von Drehle isn’t very good at that numbers and counting thing we learned about in the first grade.

    There are unanswered questions about long-term effectiveness and potentially unforeseen effects.

    This is cosmically stupid. He has no idea whatsoever how vaccines work.
    .1. Vaccines work on an in, do their thing, and then disappear. They are antigens that produce a specific immune response. The antigen is a one or two time injection that doesn’t last long in the body because proteins turn over rapidly and part gets processed by the immune system.
    Vaccine side effects are usually followed for only 6 months because 2 centuries of experience has shown that if there are side effects, they show up in the first 6 months.
    .2. We have a huge data base now, that 6.9 billion vaccines given.
    .3. We also know what the potentially foreseen effects of getting Covid-19 virus are.
    It’s 740,000 dead USA with 46 million cases. 25% of those cases will be long haulers with permanent disabilities.

    And even vaccinated people keep dying — albeit at much lower rates.

    This is true but misses the point.
    The unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to die of the Covid-19 virus.
    The vaccines are a huge advantage for anyone and everyone.

    And mostly the unvaccinated are special cases. In one study the average age of vaccinated deaths was 81. In another it was 85. Your immune system declines with age.
    These are most likely people in which the vaccines just didn’t work very well or at all. It happens to something like 5% of the recipients.

  6. Reginald Selkirk says

    So far, there isn’t a lot of evidence that ivermectin is a good anti-covid therapy…

    “So far” – as if there hasn’t been enough time for the inevitable evidence to accumulate. That is BS. Ivermectin has been tested, and it has no effect on COVID-19. There is a curious correlation between ivermectin and poor quality studies, including fraud.
    Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid ‘miracle’ drug

  7. raven says

    The vaccines work well and do what they were designed to do.
    We all wish they would work better though. It is unfortunate that breakthrough infections are a thing and no one is 100% safe right now.

    Only very old and sick die of COVID if vaccinated, Italian study shows
    Reuters

    MILAN, Oct 20 (Reuters) – People vaccinated against COVID-19 are highly unlikely to die of the disease unless very old and already badly ill before getting it, a study in Italy showed on Wednesday.

    The study by the national Health Institute (ISS), contained in a regular ISS report on COVID-19 deaths, shows the average age of people who died despite being vaccinated was 85. On average they had five underlying illnesses.

    In this study, the average age of dead vaccinated Covid-19 virus patients was 85 with 5 underlying risk factors.

    I don’t find this constant mention of “underlying risk factors” very useful though.
    The large majority of the US population has “underlying risk factors.”
    They include being overweight (42% of the US population is classified as seriously overweight, obese), high blood pressure, pregnancy, cardiac, lung, and kidney problems, smoking, diabetes, old age etc..

  8. raven says

    This is what happens to the mRNA and Covid-19 spike protein in the vaccines. The tl;dr version.
    .1. The mRNA lasts a few days. The spike protein lasts a few weeks.
    .2. Vaccines mostly remain near the site of injection (the arm muscle) and local lymph nodes.
    This is one reason why vaccine side effects, if any, are only followed out to 6 months.

    Von Drehle knows nothing about biology or medicine. No big deal, many people don’t.
    He is an idiot though for not asking, the people who actually do know what is going on.

    https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go
    How long do mRNA and spike proteins last in the body?
    Published July 2, 2021

    How long mRNA lasts in the body
    The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by introducing mRNA (messenger RNA) into your muscle cells. The cells make copies of the spike protein and the mRNA is quickly degraded (within a few days). The cell breaks the mRNA up into small harmless pieces. mRNA is very fragile; that’s one reason why mRNA vaccines must be so carefully preserved at very low temperatures.

    How long spike proteins last in the body
    The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) estimates that the spike proteins that were generated by COVID-19 vaccines last up to a few weeks, like other proteins made by the body. The immune system quickly identifies, attacks and destroys the spike proteins because it recognizes them as not part of you. This “learning the enemy” process is how the immune system figures out how to defeat the real coronavirus. It remembers what it saw and when you are exposed to coronavirus in the future it can rapidly mount an effective immune response.

    Where does the vaccine go?
    Here’s a peer-reviewed study that shows where intramuscular vaccines (which all three of the COVID-19 vaccines are) travel in macaques (a type of monkey). Vaccines mostly remain near the site of injection (the arm muscle) and local lymph nodes.

    This makes sense: Lymph nodes produce white blood cells and antibodies to protect us from disease. A key part of the lymphatic system, lymph nodes also clean up fluids and remove waste materials. Finding pieces of spike protein in the lymph nodes is completely normal, because lymph nodes act as the trash removal service for the body. That means the vaccine did its job (made spike proteins, which caused the creation of antibodies) and will be cleared from the body.

    Another peer-reviewed study tested exactly where an mRNA vaccine went in mice. Most of the mRNA vaccine stayed in the injection site muscle – where you get the shot. Look at Table 1. A lot of mRNA vaccine was found in local lymph nodes, which peaked about eight hours after the shot was given. A much smaller amount of mRNA vaccine went to farther away lymph nodes.

  9. marner says

    At best, saying that Rogan took horse dewormer is deeply misleading. Recognizing this is not being “soft on the guy”.

  10. wzrd1 says

    Well, ivermectin was shown to, computationally bind to a small domain at the base of the spike protein, so, blather. Blather being active, given its distance form the fusion protein region…
    I may suck at organic chemistry, but not that badly!

    Still, he went with antibodies, I’ll go with antimatter should I get infected. Lesee, 1 gram is equivalent to 38 KT, a kilogram should do… ;)

  11. jack lecou says

    At best, saying that Rogan took horse dewormer is deeply misleading.

    ‘Horse dewormer’ is at this point a well-established colloquial (pejorative) term for the anti-parasite drug ivermectin, particularly in the context of COVID-19 treatment. So a sentence like, “Joe Rogan took horse de-wormer” translates straightforwardly to, “Joe Rogan took ivermectin [to treat COVID]”, with the added connotation of “Joe Rogan is a conspiracy-addled idiot”

    Which is all literally true. The first apparently by Rogan’s own admission, and the second implied by the first. What exactly is even remotely misleading about any of that?

  12. snarkrates says

    To David von Drehle:
    So, David. Can I call you David? I just wanted you to know that I regularly flush things smarter than you, and we don’t keep goldfish. This UTTER BULLSHIT that there are going to be some sort of insidious “long-term” effects is the last refuge of the anti-vax moron. Let’s drive a fucking stake through it’s primitive little proto-heart, shall we?
    1) Exactly how is this long-term ill supposed to manifest?
    a) The vaccine only stays in your system for a few days.
    b) M-RNA in the vaccine, likewise lasts only a few days.
    c) The spike proteins in the cells affected by the vaccine last a week or two.
    d) The DNA in your cells doesn’t have the blueprints for replacing the M-RNA, so once those cells die, and once the M-RNA from the original vaccine is gone, there’s no mechanism for perpetuating this process. It’s over.
    e) There is zero evidence from the nearly 7 billion vaccinations that the vaccines pose a risk to liver, kidney or other vital organs.
    2) The damage posed by COVID is different entirely.
    a) It is long-lasting if not permanent in many cases.
    b) It doesn’t leave you with robust immunity to future mutations fo the virus.
    c) It does damage your vital organs.
    d) And a major reason to get vaccinated is so that you don’t kill off Grandma and the other folks for whom the vaccine might not be as effective.

    So, David, I say this in the most friendly way possible: Shut the fuck up when it comes to areas about which you are an utter and complete ignoramus. Joe Rogan got off way, way too light in this matter. He should have been laughed at so hard as to be totally expunged from the public domain.

  13. Frederic Bourgault-Christie says

    On the flipside, does Rogan acknowledge error?

    Looking up his retractions, he’s done a few, sure. Mostly about COVID. That’s after tons of podcasts, including with people like Peterson who say outright false things. Any corrections?

    Rogan’s position on transgender folks and on lots of other topics are thoughtless. Does he bring on people to really challenge him? No.

    Rogan does have some good interviews and some good guests, but he’s not teaching mainstream journalists anything about admitting error, doing retractions, or being diligent.

  14. landdownunder says

    I have a son who is anti COVID vax. He is not anti vax just having his youngest MMR vaxed the other day. Unfortunately he is a Joe Rogan fan, and in my attempts to get him vaxxed he puts forward many of Rogan’s arguments which I then have to spend hours reserching to counter. The fact that it was reported by CNN originally as horse dewormer has now been used as an arguing point by him. Had CNN properly used the term Invermectin, it would be a damn site easier, so in this ONE regard I am on the reporters side. I repeat I am NOT a Rogan fan. I wish he wasnt there.

  15. says

    I didn’t really follow neither CNN nor Joe Rogan here so my comment is not about those specifically.
    Joe Rogan is not intelectually great, however he is not a complete idiot, he has great emotional intelligence and is a great interviewer with a lot of natural curiosity about the world, that’s why he is very effective podcaster.
    He is not a conspiracy theory quack, he is just likeable (for many), convincing and misguided.
    I’m not writing it to defend Joe Rogan, just to paint more accurate picture.

    Why does it matter? After Republicans dismantled the New Deal they started the class war again. The only way to keep power was to redefine class. It is no longer about financial situation, it became culture war of “smug liberal elites” vs “people of common tastes”. That’s why in todays america Trump and Bush are seen as anti-elite while Obama or Elisabeth Warren are seen as elitists.
    It’s not about how much money you got from your daddy, it is about how long are words you are using, how many other dishes than steak hamburger and fries you like.
    College professors and blue collar workers should be on the same side against ultra rich, but instead ultra-rich sit on the Capitol on both sides of the aisle while “have-nots” fight each other over abortion and vaccines.
    I’m simplifying terribly of course

    The point I am trying to make is that it’s fun and giggles to joke about “stupid podcaster guzzling horse dewormer” but it will not convince anyone who needs to be convinced.
    There is completely different line of reasoning to prove to others from your smug inner circle, that someone is stupid and to convince them they are wrong.
    Yeah, I’m usually also going with the “look how stupid you are” because it is way easier but at least I understand why those idiots just double down on their stupid theories.

  16. logicalcat says

    CNN still lied about Rogan taking a horse dewormer. Its the most insidious form of dishonesty, the half truth. Because yea its a horse dewormer but its used on humans too. By being dishonest about it CNN created doubt in the audience and created legitimacy to Rogan which is a bad thing.

    Do not let CNN off the hook for this. Their actions actually helped Rogan peddle his nonsense.

  17. jack lecou says

    CNN still lied about Rogan taking a horse dewormer. Its the most insidious form of dishonesty, the half truth. Because yea its a horse dewormer but its used on humans too. By being dishonest about it CNN created doubt in the audience and created legitimacy to Rogan which is a bad thing.

    This is just one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

    Rogan literally took horse dewormer. That is, he took a chemical called ivermectin, which is a horse dewormer. Saying he took horse dewormer is not any less accurate than saying he took, say, a scabies miticide, or a whipworm treatment. Those would be fine too. The whole point is that while ivermectin has a variety of valid uses, treating COVID isn’t one of them.

    It’s kind of like how if someone took, say, sildenafil to treat COVID-19, we’d probably mock them for treating the disease with “dick pills”. Sildenafil has a handful of other valid uses as well, but “dick pills” is a perfectly accurate descriptor, and a person publicly admitting to taking it for COVID-19 doesn’t get to pick and choose how we characterize their particular brand of idiocy.

  18. Frederic Bourgault-Christie says

    @21: I have a soft spot for Joe too, because he can be a very good interviewer and because he helped hand MIlo his ass The problem is still that his emotional intelligence here isn’t helping. Precisely because it’s running up against where Joe is a stubborn, thoughtless asshole: When it comes to conspiracies that he believes in (or into trans people). Joe deserves criticism precisely because he’s smarter and a better journalist than this.

    And, yes, there is an artificially created partisan proxy for the class war. But not only do Republicans lie and pretend they are working with the salt of the Earth when in reality Trump supporters were on average firmly middle-class or affluent, but in any case it’s the duty of people like Joe (who happily challenges narratives) to nix that bullshit. Joe isn’t being attacked because he’s a brave rebel; people are pointing out he’s wrong, and arrogantly so. And everyone, irrespective of class, needs to be held to account when we’re incorrect and not learning.

    In other words; People aren’t just laughing at Joe. They’re actually quite scared. And the media is making it worse by giving his opinion a platform repeatedly, rather than realizing that “podcaster does medically inadvisable thing” isn’t a news story.

  19. logicalcat says

    @23

    You are being dishinest as fuck right now. Calling Ivermecton a horse dewormer is loading the statement for an ignirant audiemce to ridicule. Its dishonest. Ivermectin is not just a horse dewormer. Its used on humans but what the audiemce hears is that ivermectin is JUST a horse dewormer. That it does not have other applications other than that. Its dishonest framing and anyone who supports this fucking strawman is a liar who cares more about the narrative than the truth.

    Its like if Rogan had a yeart attack and took nitroglycerin and stupid dishinest fucks like yourself made fun of him for taking an explosive as medicine. Nitroglycerine is an explosive. That us a true statement but its also heart medication.

    Taking ivermectin for covid is stupid but for other reason that are not related to horse deworming. I work in medicine as an emt btw ajd seen doctors prescribe it to people for covid. Those doctors are idiots and so is rogan but dismissing it as “lol he took a horse dewormer” is dishonest.

    Thats the problem with the left now adays. They care more about preaching the narrative than they do about the truth.

  20. jack lecou says

    You are being dishinest as fuck right now. Calling Ivermecton a horse dewormer is loading the statement for an ignirant audiemce to ridicule. Its dishonest. Ivermectin is not just a horse dewormer. Its used on humans but what the audiemce hears is that ivermectin is JUST a horse dewormer.

    Alternatively, it’s loading the statement for an informed audience to ridicule. The bolded in particular is very much facts not in evidence.

    Arguably, it’s also more informative. The audience takeaway the news should be aiming for, surely, is that relying on ivermectin to treat COVID-19 is an irresponsible thing to do. Openly mocking a celebrity for irresponsibly promoting that use is very possibly more effective than a technically correct but verbose and wishy-washy alternative like, “Joe Rogan took the drug ivermectin, which has not been proven in clinical trials [blah blah blah I’ve already tuned out]”.

    Its like if Rogan had a yeart attack and took nitroglycerin and stupid dishinest fucks like yourself made fun of him for taking an explosive as medicine. Nitroglycerine is an explosive. That us a true statement but its also heart medication.

    Well, except in that case he’d be taking it for a clinically proven, on-label use. There’d be no reason to mock that. If Joe Rogan had used ivermectin appropriately — e.g., to treat a nasty case of scabies — we wouldn’t be having this…ahem…conversation.

    The correct analogy is where he was taking nitroglycerin to treat some other completely unrelated condition. In which case, e.g., “Joe Rogan [that idiot] tried to cure his skin cancer with a mining explosive” would be perfectly fair. It’s just a way of pointing out that nitroglycerin is used for A, not Z. It might be the case that nitroglycerin is also used for B and C too — but you’re not obligated to list all the other things it is used for. The point is, none of them are Z.

    You see the difference? When you’re using something appropriately, you’re not going to have to worry about people pointing out that the thing is used for other uses. But if you’re using something inappropriately, particularly in a public, wildly irresponsible way, you don’t get to pick which of the appropriate uses people point to when they’re correcting you. Chances are they’re going to pick the most ridiculous one.

    Doubly so if this was a thing. Suppose there Facebook groups out there promoting the use of nitroglycerin for cancer treatment. And that thousands of people were endangering themselves (and others) by literally rubbing old dynamite on their tumors. And this has all already been widely debunked, with evidence widely available to someone like Rogan.

    It’d be completely fair to call him out for promoting the dangerous mining explosive fad — even if he himself technically got a bad doctor to prescribe him a bottle labeled as angina medicine.

  21. says

    You are being dishinest as fuck right now.

    Liar! Calling jack lecou “dishinest as fuck” is loading the statement for an ignirant audiemce to ridicule.

    For one, he’s also a commenter on this thread. You’re clearly trying to bias the audience by leaving out relevant information. Its dishonest framing and anyone who supports this fucking strawman is a liar who cares more about the narrative than the truth.

  22. logicalcat says

    @jack You are not an informed audience if you think thats a correct statement. Again its dishonest. Stop trying to defend it.

    You didnt use the statement correctly. Anti parasytics can he used for viruses. During covid anti malaria medications were also used and malaria is a parasyte not a virus.

    Just stop lying. Its disgusting and it helps Rogan. You are his accomplice becaise now you gave him ammunition to call pro vaccine people dishonest which aparently we are because you insist on using this strawman. And it is a strawman. Its a reductionist strawman specificaly. Ivermectin is useless but not because its a horse dewormer or an anti parasytic. Because there is no valid evidemce in its use compared to preventative medicine like vaccunes or other treatments which Rogan actually did use as well like monoclonal antibodies. It could very well be that future studies show that it is useful against covid. Thats still a possibility but the responsible thing to do is not pretend its both a miracle cure and also “lol horse dewormer”.

    And the funny thing is? Ivermectin absofuckinglutely is useful for covid but only in a specific context. One of the most common covid treatments is a steroid that lowers the immune system which while useful im fighting the cytokine storm caused by covid can leave the body succesptable to parasytic infections. So its actually used for that. Especially in africa where parasytic infections are common. Saying its “lol horse dewormer” just shows everyone how disgustingly dishonest you are and those people stop trusting the institutions you are supposed to be defending.

    Seriously. Leftist discourse gets dumber by the minute. I still am left but damn this is getting depressing. Any lie is on the table as long as it gets you that dopamine of feeling superior to Joe Rogan of all people.

  23. jack lecou says

    You are not an informed audience if you think thats a correct statement.

    What’s incorrect about it?
    a) Joe Rogan used ivermectin
    b) ivermectin is a horse dewormer

    A and B are true, Ergo, Joe Rogan used a horse dewormer. It’s aggressive. It’s insulting. But it’s certainly not incorrect.

    I’m not going to say it’s impossible to be dishonest with technically correct statements, but you do have an uphill battle to show that it’s the case here.

    At most, I think you could argue that this is an unhelpful way to characterize what Joe Rogan did. You could argue that there might be marginally better ways for a newscaster to effectively convey the facts that 1) you shouldn’t take ivermectin for COVID, and 2) Joe Rogan is a dangerous idiot. But you’ve yet to actually say what that is.

    During covid anti malaria medications were also used and malaria is a parasyte not a virus.

    Wow. I assume you mean hydroxychloroquine. For someone accusing others of “lying” and “dishonesty”, that’s a very misleading characterization you’ve concocted there yourself.

    Hydroxychloriquine was “used” in almost exactly the same way that ivermectin is now being used: as a snake-oil cure all, promoted by dubious public figures, in the absence of (or in direct contradiction to) available medical evidence. As with ivermectin, there is not, and was never, any valid scientific or medical basis for using it to treat COVID. (Perhaps some justification for conducting preliminary medical trials to check it out — why not? But, also as with ivermectin, those were done, and didn’t pan out.)

    Just stop lying. Its disgusting and it helps Rogan. You are his accomplice becaise now you gave him ammunition to call pro vaccine people dishonest

    If Joe Rogan needed “ammunition” before spouting nonsense, we wouldn’t be here in the first place. I don’t know if you’ve noticed yet, but he’s been spouting nonsense for a long time, and, assuming the COVID, the ivermectin, or some dubious sports supplement doesn’t do him in, he’s going to be spouting it in the future.

    The fact is, he’s going to spout nonsense either way, and his gang of lackwits are going to slurp it up. If the idiots in his audience can’t figure out that “Help, I’m being oppressed by CNN! I didn’t take horse dewormer, I took human dewormer!” is a laughable non-sequitur, a CNN anchor using longer words wasn’t going to help them in the first place.

    Ivermectin is useless but not because its a horse dewormer or an anti parasytic. Because there is no valid evidemce in its use

    It’s not directly causative, but the fact that it is a horse dewormer and an anti-parasitic (and not, say, an anti-viral) should certainly be your first clue that it’s probably not a COVID miracle cure. It’s at the very least a highly relevant supporting observation.

    Like, if someone tells you Windex is great for curing baldness, the “honest” response is not to calmly reply, “sir, I would advise you that as yet there is no medical evidence that Windex is an effective treatment for alopecia.” No. The honest response is, “that’s window cleaner, you idiot.”

    And the funny thing is? Ivermectin absofuckinglutely is useful for covid but only in a specific context. One of the most common covid treatments is a steroid that lowers the immune system which while useful im fighting the cytokine storm caused by covid can leave the body succesptable to parasytic infections.

    This is even more of reach than your hydroxychloroquine gambit.

    You might get a MRSA infection after being in the hospital too. Or sprain your ankle on the way home. That doesn’t make vancomycin and ankle braces COVID cures.

    A bona-fide post-treatment opportunistic parasite is certainly not why Joe Rogan took ivermectin, and you know it. It’s not why any of the people emptying the feed store shelves of apple flavored horse paste and bragging about it on Farcebook took it. They are taking it as a direct treatment for the virus.

  24. raven says

    And the funny thing is? Ivermectin absofuckinglutely is useful for covid but only in a specific context. One of the most common covid treatments is a steroid that lowers the immune system which while useful im fighting the cytokine storm caused by covid can leave the body succesptable to parasytic infections.

    This is cosmically stupid.

    Ivermectin is used for animal invertebrate infections such as worms and various arthropods.
    Just where is a Covid-19 virus patient going to get infected with roundworms, tapeworms, or scabies while they are also infected with and dealing with the Covid-19 virus?
    Especially if they are in the hospital.

    These infections are rare in the USA anyway.
    It’s going to be somewhere between very rare and never happens.
    And BTW, we don’t give medications to people before they get infected with rare pathogens just in case. We usually wait until they actually you know, actually need the drugs.
    There have been 45 million Covid-19 virus cases in the USA. I’ve yet to hear of a single case where worms or arthropods became a major problem.

  25. raven says

    Two people have died of ivermectin poisoning in New Mexico https://www.usatoday.com › news › health › 2021/09/23

    Sep 23, 2021 — Two people in New Mexico are suspected to have died as a result of taking ivermectin, a medicine not proven to treat COVID-19, according to …

    Just randomly taking drugs because some guys with tinfoil hats on Facebook said so is just dumb.

    Ivermectin has a long list of side effects and it’s possible to overdose and end up in the hospital and/or just die. It happens way too often.

    It’s also just a bad idea in general. This is a valuable drug for treating various worm infections, including serious ones like river blindness. With tens of thousands of people with zero medical knowledge dosing themselves for pointless reasons, you run the risk of eventually selecting out…resistant organisms.
    We knew this a long time ago which is why everyone is now a lot more careful about prescribing and using antibiotics.
    “Resistance to ivermectin and related drugs is an increasing problem for parasite control.” It’s already happening.

  26. numerobis says

    Ivermectin is a single dose once, and your worms die.

    For COVID, the quacks who charge $90 for a “consultation” and then write a scrip for a daily dose for a week, then sell you the pills. It’s extremely high doses that they prescribe — and they do it for profit.

  27. logicalcat says

    @30 Raven

    You missed the part where I mentioned Africa where infections are common and covid pt’s are given anti parasytics.

    Also you didn’t address the main point. That taking Ivermectin for covid is dumb not because its an anti parasytic, but because clinical trials show no real effectiveness. But go ahead and keep pushing the “lol horse dewormer” narrative. Its very helpful in convincing young healthy people to get the vaccine. Truly it is /sarcasm.

  28. logicalcat says

    @Jack Lelou

    Didn’t say Ivermectin was a covid cure but sure keep spreading that strawman to defend your original strawman that its “lol horse dewormer”. Dishonest dipshits will keep being dishonest.

    Remdesivir was a popular covid treeatment but clinical trials showed its not effective so its been discontinued for that purpose. Remdesivir is an anti-viral. Just because something is an anti viral or anti parasitic doesn’t guarantee success. Other metrics are used to determine what drugs to try in a novel virus or other pathogen. But keep spreading the idea that the general use of a thing barrs it from its experimental use on another thing. Totally not scientific at all. Lol horse dewormer amirite?

    Hydrochloroquin was used because the mechanisms in fighting parasytes can be useful in fighting certain viruses so it made sense to try these treatments initially. Clinical findings showed they do not work but they don’t work because “lol anti-parasytic”. No, they don’t work because evidence says they don’t. Initially the fact that it was an anti parasyte did nothing to stop scientists from considering it as treatment. Especially since even anti virals cannot guarantee effectiveness for viruses depending on the virus you are fighting. You saying it was used as a snake oil shows your dishonesty or ignorance on the subject. They WERE used as treatment. Not snake oil, but legit treatment. After their initial use the data was collected and they quickly fell out of favor because the evidence didn’t support their use. The snake oil salesmen didn’t come first. Scientists did. They saw promising work regarding the drug for covid that didn’t pan out then after that scientific research the snake oil idiots came to be. If you don’t know this fact you are ignorant on why these drugs entered the discussion in the first place.

    So that means you are full of shit yet again. You do not know what you are talking about but because the leftist narrative is “lol horse dewormer” you will use every dishonest justification in the book to defend it. You shouldn’t. It makes you look stupid and it gives ammunition to Rogan.

    Which brings me to your next point. I never said yours was the only ammunition he needed. I said you just gave him some. So nice strawman (yet again). Oh im fully fucking aware of Rogans bulshit. Like I said Im an EMT. A lot of my coworkers are rogan meatheads. And I had to fight against his rhetoric from day one on personal grounds. And now that fight is harder because of dishonest assholes like yourselves. I have to dismantle your bullshit before I can deal with theirs because they don’t believe pro vaccine people because we “politicize” the vaccine and here you are doing just that. Thanks. Oh and the worst part is that Rogan now actually has the claim that you are making fun of him for. CNN is oppressing him (although I don’t like using the word in this context). They did lie. They misrepresented the facts. And their medical correspondent had to show up on Rogans show for damage control and it looked fucking bad. Congrats I guess.

    And lastly I absolutely did say how you could communicate that honestly. Ive said it in almost every post, but you are so full of shit you missed it. Ill say it again. CNN should have said that Rogan taking a drug thats not clinicaly shown to be effective instead of getting vaccinated was dumb. There you go. Thats honest and not stupid. Embolding the phrase “Rogan takes Horse Dewormer” scrawling on the screen in bold letters and then spending 80% of the segment harping on this half truth until finally the actual medical professional came on screen to remind them its used on humans just fine was irresponsible since by then it was too late.

    Lets look at your dumb shit here:
    “What’s incorrect about it?
    a) Joe Rogan used ivermectin
    b) ivermectin is a horse dewormer”

    An informed audience knows this is a loaded statement meant to make Rogan look like an idiot by lieing through omission about how these drugs work. When ill informed audiences sees the statement “Ivermectin is a horse dewormer” they don’t know that its used by humans and that has actual scientific evidence against viruses (do some actual research) and that with right doses its safe to use. No, what ill informed audience see is “lol horse dewormer. What a dumb ass”. It should be that Rogan is a dumb ass for taking Ivermectin which is unproven over actually proven stuff. It being an anti parasytic means nothing.

    Thats why its a half truth. Thats why its dishonest. Because the statement is true, but misleading. Thats why its dangerous. Vaccine skeptics can do a simple google search and see that its used on humans. That its been used in the past against a variety of RNA and DNA viruses (although not enough evidence for its effectiveness if you ask me but thats besides the point) and they could see that you are being dishonest. Now it would be great for these vaccine skeptics to do this with Rogan too but thats their bias. Your bias is this dishonest framing. Your bias is enabling theirs.

    This is the last comment from me. If you cant see this then you are just dogmatic about your precious narrative. Like I said earlier. Dipshits who care more about the dopamine they get from feeling smugly superior to Rogan of all people like its an accomplishment and lack the humility and self reflection to admit that you are just as full of shit.

  29. Frederic Bourgault-Christie says

    @34: First of all, the fact that anti-parasitics also have pretty nasty side effects quite commonly should be relevant, right? That is, we didn’t just not use ivermectin because it doesn’t work, ivermectin has fucked up side effects. That makes Rogan dumber.

    Second: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7928734/ . The initial research into alternatives was based on specific properties of the drugs. “It’s an anti-parasitic, it probably won’t work as an antiviral, and you shouldn’t use it unless you have evidence to that effect” remains true. Rogan has no evidence. In fact, he is ignoring established evidence. He is taking a horse dewormer. That has no proven effect.

    Third: Rogan had by huis own admission thrown the kitchen sink at the problem. Including vitamin C, monoclonal antibodies, etc. The listing of horse dewormer in that context is even more accurate, because it points to what Rogan was doing: grabbing things that, yeah, are vaguely plausible as treatments, so fuck it, throw it all together, do everything except do what the doctors tell you. Worse, Rogan irresponsibly didn’t bother noting, for example, that you should only ever use formulations for humans, not animals. A doctor prescribing it didn’t make it any better.

    People can feel smugly superior to Rogan all they want. He still has a huge platform, and is now considering threatening to sue because of an unequivocally true statement that he, the big free speech warrior, views as unduly charitable to him. It’s not about making Joe feel dumb. It’s about stopping the misinformation. An objective you decided to not focus on, at all.

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