It wasn’t bad — not quite a great movie, the premises were too silly for that, but very entertaining and lovely to watch. OK, spectacular to watch. The whole esthetic was gorgeous and stimulating.
It was also good because it was one of Marvel’s more constrained, focused efforts, with nothing about a build-up to their upcoming blockbuster, Infinity War. I very much liked the fact that it’s about the people of this one African country struggling with decisions about their place in the world. It was a big but still manageable set of conflicts.
That it wasn’t just a set-piece to lead to a bigger movie also allowed the ensemble cast to shine. This isn’t just a movie about one super guy in a fancy costume. I left the theater wanting to see a heck of a lot more about Okoye and M’Baku (let’s see a movie wrapped around the Dora Milaje!), and all of the characters were interesting. Even the villain had realistic conflicts.
One thing that annoyed me: why is an enlightened, progressive country like Wakanda ruled by a hereditary monarchy? Why is kingship settled by a trial by combat? One minute I’m thinking this looks like an awesome, wonderful place, and the next I’m wondering what other ugly flaws are lurking to wreck this utopia.
Other than that you don’t want to cross the Dora Milaje. Or is that a good thing?
I have to admit that always bothers me as well. How does succession by combat determine if the validity of a candidates taxation policy? Or any of the other important policies. Charles Stross had an interesting piece recently about economics and how it affects his suspension of disbelief.
“why is an enlightened, progressive country like Wakanda ruled by a hereditary monarchy? Why is kingship settled by a trial by combat?”
Because Fantastic Four # 52 was published fifty years ago in a less enlightened era.
The hereditary monarchy and ritual combat means of challenging for ruler ship aspects did make for uncomfortable viewing. To this pasty soul at least, it felt like a sop to some very ugly stereotypes about African tribal cultures. Busterggi points out @ 2 that the source material’s initial incarnation came out in a less enlightened age and that is probably the reason, but isn’t that what adaptations, rather than direct conversions from one medium to another, are good at? Updating a narrative to a more modern and enlightened sensibility? I would certainly hope that any modern adaptation of any of, say, Lovecraft’s work would be absolutely sure to excise all the hateful bigotry he littered his prose with.
Why shouldn’t such a technologically advanced culture as Wakanda also have sophisticated political arrangements? Given the fact that the Wakandans all possess a very high level of education and societal awareness in the later incarnations of the source material, why not go for a system of direct democracy, where advanced Wakandan technology and well ordered social systems allow for important issues of policy to be settled by a direct plebiscite? It is nothing like the legacy of colonial governmental systems, but still allows for a democratic solution to issues of policy that makes a whole lot more sense than what appeared in the movie to be a system of absolutist monarchy. Obviously, that would necessitate a few changes to the movie’s plot line, but ***SPOILERS*** then you just have Killmonger leading a more conventional coup rather than taking power in a ritualised duel. It doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to do.
I live in a country where the head of state is a hereditary monarch. I would be only too happy to see kingship decided via trial by combat. The monarch has just enough influence to be indirectly important (sadly) but not so much as to be directly irreplaceable.
It’s not like we haven’t killed off a dynasty or two before. Let’s make the buggers work for a living.
why is an enlightened, progressive country like Wakanda ruled by a hereditary monarchy?
Gee, I don’t know. Check with Norway or Sweden. It clearly is much better to have an elected head of state as they do in the Philippines.
Succession by trial by combat does seem a bit strange.
*looks around at the results of democracy*
As it turns out, I don’t know if there is a good method. It seems every method of governance eventually goes to shit.
PZ:
I don’t have any trouble grokking that – it speaks to one of the biggest human flaws: the deep and abiding love of tradition. There is not one single governance model which avoids that one. Golly, tradition keeps the rethuglicans going. Thinking about the Tiny Tyrant, and you want to talk about qualifications? Well, Donny doesn’t have one single fucking qualification, and we don’t have any standing qualifications for the office that would restrict it to qualified people, so I don’t think we have room to talk. I’d be perfectly fine with ritual combat when it comes to Donny.
While I do enjoy a good (or at least half-bad) superhero movie, I can’t shake the feeling they are somehow part of the problem with our current society. It feels like they’re designed to be a weapon of mass distraction, supporting a mass delusion that keeps us from seeing just how absurd this world really is.
Oh well, time will tell. I do have to commend Marvel on their current social profile. Characters like Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Black Panther has improved the genre immensely, Jones for not being a scantly clad supermodel and Cage & Panther for including the black community. Haven’t seen BP yet, and LC was a bit on the black side for me personally. Nothing wrong with that, but as a non-american white it’s a bit hard to relate to many of the story elements. Still, I imagine there are many who has waited for a couple of black superheroes, and I do like the more diverse world they’re creating.
The latest Spiderman movie was pretty *meh* in my opinion, but my major gripe was the absence of the guilt complex that’s so fundamental to the character. That and the “Iron Man Light” tech. Using more black and hispanic characters somehow felt quite appropriate even though it strays from the original comics.
Haven’t seen it but my main concern is whether Danai Gurira’s character Okoye eclipses Michonne as a hardcore f’in badass. That seems an impossible feat.
Ok, so something that’s bothered my about all the pictures I’ve seen, are they meant to look like they’re nipping out through boiled leather? Does that make more sense in live action than still shots?
In other movie news, Sampson is also out.
And if it follows the original mythology, Delilah is the true hero of the story, who sacrificed herself to stop a relentless mass-murderer.
Is there a Fred Hampton analogue in this movie? Someone who reaches out to poor white folk who today are represented by a different sort of Patriot:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Patriots_Organization
“The Young Patriots wore a rebel Confederate flag on their blue jean jackets and berets, and fought against racism.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Party_(1960s–1980s)
Need I point out the craziest of the lot on the radical white left were the Weathermen who were…ummm…very light skinned.
So if I don’t like comic book movies, I won’t like it then? I figured, since I didn’t even like Wonder Woman, but I was hoping this would be the one I could finally not hate.
Caine
Yeah. Perhaps a couple of years ago, I might have scoffed at all of these powerful, allegedly principled people shrugging and letting someone with zero qualifications come in and spit on all their supposed values because, well, the new guy did technically make it through their traditional way of selecting a leader.
But then the USA did the same damn thing. Campaigning for office doesn’t necessarily get you someone any better for the job than fighting it out in a waterfall.
About the ritual combat, I kind of interpreted it as “Ok, let’s do this part of the coronation ceremony. It’s maybe a bit outdated, but it’s traditional and… What!? Somebody actually challenged him? This wasn’t supposed to happen! I guess we just have to roll with it.”
It’s a good thing it’s just a movie, and no country with high-technological weaponry would ever actually end up with an aggressive and unstable head of state just because of outdated technicalities remaining in the rules.
Well it is from a comic book :) I’m guessing the writers wanted a superhero that is also in charge of a country. With a democracy he’d only be in for 4 years, so I guess they went with monarchy for plot sakes? I do believe in the comics they do deal with the downside of such a system.
Ah yes, here we go:
“As a group of Wakandan insurgents called the People began to agitate for social revolution with a number of extremist tactics, the Dora Milaje took the stance that T’Challa had abandoned his people – something that drove many of the Doras to turn their back on the throne as well. Though T’Challa was ultimately able to expose the People’s nefarious intentions, he also decided to move forward with the founding of a Wakandan constitution, which is likely to lead to the formation of a new Wakandan democratic government”
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/02/a-brief-history-of-black-panthers-wakanda-under-tchallas-reign/
I think the point is that democracy is obviously no guarantee of avoiding winding up with an incompetent, egomaniacal, warmonger in control of society (hi there Donald…), but it at least mitigates the risk, and puts some constitutional limits on their power. Sure, President Trump is bad, but imagine an Emperor Trump who came to power at 20 and was ruler for life. Imagine a Trump with no limits on his power at all, whose every petty whim was absolute law. Imagine a Trump who could simply kill his critics with impunity rather than sending them rude tweets. Imagine a Trump who doesn’t only boast about his serial sexual assault of women without suffering consequences, but is able to demand a tribute of young women to his specifications from every state in the US to be his harem, with defiance met by mass slaughter.
Imagine further that even after that Emperor Trump dies, you get Emperor Trump Jnr. ready and waiting to take power in his place and continue the nightmare for another generation.
Given the choice between President Trump, and Emperor Trump, I think it is pretty clear which option is the lesser evil. I don’t particularly like quoting Churchhill, but I think he had a point when he said that;
I too had the thought of ‘a monarchy? hmmm…”
But there were a couple of other slightly bigger problems – we saw them fight a civil war. A short one, but also one that highlighted some drastic differences in the way they want policy to go. What is the fallout from that?
On the good side, it was very clearly underlined that a big part of the problem with racism in the world today is based on European colonial history and the slave trade. I had a lot of trouble seeing Erik (Killmonger) Stevens as a _villain_. I disagreed with his means, but not necessarily his ends, and – for a change – his entire motivation was well thought out and grounded in how people actually act.
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I would have changed the final scene with T’challa and Erik to have T’challa interrupt –
T: “No – there is no need for you to die, we will not lock you up.”
E: “?? Wha…”
T: “You are right that Wakanda needs to step out of its isolation. You are right that we are allowing injustice in the world to protect what we have. And we have deeply wronged you and are sorry. How would locking you up fix any of that?”
E: “But I fought against you and took your kingship!”
T: “Completely legally – and once king, you did not abuse your power, you did nothing against Wakandan law.”
…
T: “Work with me – together let us work to heal these problems across the world.”
Offers his hand-
T: “I am going to need all the help I can get.”
Allowing them to show a different kind of justice not based on locking people in prison.
Well nuts – I was trying to limit exposure to a minor spoiler… That didn’t work.
Apologies all.
felicis
Yeah, that might have ruined the poetic flow of that scene, but my heart broke that this wasn’t offered.
And from that very first scene we saw one glaring, awful flaw in Wakanda’s utopia: They are glorious Omelas and all the other peoples of Africa and descended from the continent (and, hell, all marginalized people period, as Erik points out all people originated from Africa) are the child in the cellar. Instead of walking away, Erik attempted to tear this injustice apart.
Imagine how different things could have been if that lost little boy were given protection and comfort instead of rage and could have directed his dreams in a less bloodthirsty way.
Superhero movies bore me to tears, but this one might actually have some positive fallout.
I found it to be pretty much the same as the other Marvel movies – entertaining action films with a consistently decent level of writing and cinematography. I probably won’t watch it again unless it’s on an airplane, but it was worth my ticket money.
I’m certainly going to give it bonus points for being a movie with a primarily black cast, though. I hope it helps pave the way for more diversity in genre movies in the future.
Don’t know if any of you have heard ,but some rightit wingnut trolls have been posting fake stories about white people getting duffed up bu black people if they try to see the film .
All right, you’ve convinced me. I’ll be going to see Early Man this weekend instead. :-)
davidc1: “Don’t know if any of you have heard ,but some rightit wingnut trolls have been posting fake stories about white people getting duffed up bu black people if they try to see the film .”
There are also prominent blacktivists telling black people to be careful while attending this movie, so as usual the bullshit flows from both directions.
@25
How is that bullshit, exactly?
Telling people, especially oppressed minorities, to be careful just seems like prudent advice.
@25 ,Can’t find any link to what you said, and wot @26 said .
@27: Then you’re not very skilled at using the basic function of a search engine.
I went to google and searched for “white people beaten up marvel black panther”.
Top hit was https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/2/16/17020230/black-panther-movie-theater-attacks-fake-trolls
That story showed a tweet from Questlove reading, “I want y’all to be extra careful in the theaters this weekend. CAREFUL.”
@ 17 Gregory Greenwood
A typical hereditary monarch, an “absolute” one that is, typically has far more limits on his or her powers than it may seem. There are always competing power blocks to be balanced, normal rules of justice must be followed, and so on.
North Korea may be an exception but we do not know enough about how the hermit kingdom operates. Still, it does seem to match your Trumpian dynasty is some ways though North Korea seems to have a political philosophy beyond “Grab the money!”.
What appears to be the real worry is the ascendancy of a demagogue to power (Stalin, Hitlar) who have destroyed the normal checks and balances that work in a sane, stable state. Oh, hi Mr. Trump.
A suggested improvement: “Perhaps you do not search using the same phrases as I do, and / or Evaluate the ‘hits’ differently.”
A friend ended up paying for me. I was pleasantly suprised to find it pretty good. But yeah not radical and it’s center-left. It’s not a bad version of its politics but I don’t get why it’s being hailed as a cultural milestone. It’s not even the first Marvel superhero to feature mostly black people in the hero roles.
The Shape of Water is a far, far, far better social justice-y movie and Get Out was far, far, far better at capturing the zeitgeist of race.
But pleasantly surprised that I actively like the movie.
@ Dave Grain, #25
Huh. I saw the same sort of thing after the Aurora, Colorado theater massacre. People telling other people going to see The Dark Knight Rises to be careful. Considering a white supremacist just murdered 17 people 3 days ago, telling people to be careful when they go to the theater to see a movie white supremacists really hate seems like an entirely reasonable thing to do.
But sure, BOTH SIDES YOU GUISE.
Overall I really enjoyed it. Aside from what’s been said, it had a ton of excellent female characters and a really good villain. The latter is especially noteworthy because the Marvel movies tend to have rather disposable villains – anyone remember Ronin the Accuser or Malekith?
My only real complaints are minor nitpicks. Act III felt a bit rushed and could have used another 15-20 minutes, Martin Freeman’s storyline feels kind of odd (I bet he had a bigger role in an earlier cut of the movie, given his presence in the trailer), and so forth.
@30 .Thanks for that ,saves me saying it .
@4 i would not like to get into a fight with QE2 ,she is said to be a dirty street fighter .
@32 vucodolak: “Considering a white supremacist just murdered 17 people 3 days ago,”
I am having trouble finding proof that he is a white supremacist. Got any links?
Seems like a bit of a irrelevancy. Racialized violence is a thing. Normal street violence is a thing. Telling people to be careful when going out, especially if they belong to an oppressed minority, is never bad advice.
David Grain,
So, there’s this great new tool on the Intertubes. It’s called Google. Maybe you should try it. Took me all of about 6 seconds to find this:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
#38: Perhaps I do not search using the same phrases as you do, and / or Evaluate the ‘hits’ differently.
The kid hated women, Jews, blacks…I wouldn’t call him a white supremacist, I would instead suggest he has mental health problems which manifest in whole or in part as hatred and anger towards people. Generally. All of us. He sure doesn’t seem to have been trying to leave the white gene pool any less empty than others judging by his victims.
I had the same misgivings about the monarchy, and about trial by combat. Though I would buy tickets to see Joe Biden mix it up with Donald Trump even if nobody was running for anything.
But so much was stripped from the continent of Africa by colonizers. I couldn’t hold the thought of saying; “Your institutions are flawed, why don’t you take advice from us?” Also I thought that Wakanda was right on the cusp of political change on its own. They will come up with something, and they didn’t ask Europeans.
Maybe they’ll continue as a monarchy, with some kind of moral test added to the ritual.
In all it was a magnificent movie.
#38 part 2: dear a-roy-in-dilbert_space: my name is not David.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
Everyone is giving rave reviews so I’m being tempted. However, last time this happened, I watched the “Watchmen” and I was pretty disappointed so I’m proceeding with caution. The only superhero movies I watched lately were the ones I was certain I can go in and laugh at the cheesy lines and the cheesy plots (e.g., the last Terminator with Arnold and Emilia Clarke).
#39 Dave Grain “The kid hated women, Jews, blacks…I wouldn’t call him a white supremacist, I would instead suggest he has mental health problems which manifest in whole or in part as hatred and anger towards people.”
Bigotry is not a mental health issue. Please don’t conflate those with mental health issue with assholes.
Dave, #39
my name is not David.
Maybe not, but at least you stand corrected.
I haven’t seen the movie yet, but I just finished reading de 2016 run of the comic, beautifully written by Ta-Neishi Coates, and with some amazing artwork by Brian Steelfreeze. It revolves around that very same conflict of how can a progressive nation be ruled by monarchs, and how troubled T’Challa is about it, and about being a King and/or the Panther. Highly recommended for anyone intersted :)
ThanX! Now I don’t have any reason to see the flick.