When the sides are divided, when they start making accusations, it’s always enlightening to look at what each side considers an insult. On my side, we see the other as agents of oppression, misogynists and racists, people who want to discriminate and maintain an unjust status quo. On their side…
What really made me think, though, was the terms that the sneering manchildren use to define their opponents: “white knight” and “social justice warrior”.
Leaving aside the baggage that has been heaped onto the phrases by shrieking adolescents, for a moment, there’s something amusing underneath, specifically about the irony of using the terms as pejoratives.
A white knight, fictionally speaking, is a protector, and defender of what’s good. The only things that are supposed to hate white knights are the horrible monsters who prey on the innocent.
As for social justice warriors, well; a lifetime of reading superhero comics has taught me an inalienable truth. There is a clear name for someone who opposes a concept centred around justice: the Bad Guy.
Think about the imagery used in that #GamerGate document. These are people who think Nazis look bad-ass and CIA covert ops sound like fun. Do I need to spell it out for you? Those aren’t the Good Guys.
HELL YES.
That’s what this comic book fan thinks too.
It’s the strangest thing-hearing people use SJW as an insult, when we’re advocating for better treatment of women, PoC, and LGBT people. Those on the other side of the rift are opposed to our efforts, which means they don’t want things to get better for oppressed people. Fucking idjits.
Don’t have to spell it out o me. Classic case of Snidely Whiplash trying to play the good guy. Just the performance smells like 10 day old garbage.
Hey now, let’s not conflate fashion with morality.
Hugo Boss designed the SS uniform.
So, yeah, there can be overlaps of fashion and (lack of) morality.
Feminazi, SJW, all of it, water off a duck’s back. I remember people saying “women’s libber” with such contempt they may as well have spat on me. Same with “ugly hairy dyke” and all the rest. What does get under the folds of my brain is people thinking that threats are alright. That there’s no big deal in sending out rape threats. That there’s no big deal in sending out death threats. These people know they are the bad guys. The problem is that they relish the role.
brianpansky @ 3:
Yes, because wearing a nazi uniform of any kind is simply a fashion statement, nothing more. It’s too early in the thread for this kind of fuckwittery.
And again, we see a man diverting the thread from the actual issue. Thanks so much.
But they have skulls on their caps.
Hans, are we the baddies? We have skulls on our caps!?
From Mitchell and Webb
http://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU?list=LLU5vx2Ai9vBPEhGgrmWVppw
This has always confused me – when they use the SJW label as a label for those that “oppose” them, they are pretty much admitting that they are against social justice.
The other thing is that in almost all stories the White Knight wins… So are they admitting that they are going to lose?
i have no idea what went wrong when I tried to c&p the link to the Mitchell and Webb video. Here it is. Sorry about the confusion.
http://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU?list=LLU5vx2Ai9vBPEhGgrmWVppw
I give up. And I am very sorry about the techno incompetence on my part.
sadunlap @ 7, here it is! Mitchell and Webb, Are we the bad guys?
@ Iyeska #11
Thank you. [hangs head in techno-shame]
This is the sort of people who think social justice is trivial and unimportant. The “warrior” label, to them, is an ironic exaggeration.
@sadunlap
Hopefully this will help. Either that, or it’ll be a third edition of our queen feminazi, which’ll be ok too. Not sure if it embeds automatically, though?
The left-wing Communists killed many more people in the name of “social justice” than the right-wing Fascists did in the name of inequality.
Nice evidenceless non-sequitur.
The left’s concept of social justice leads to degeneracy through the promotion of miscegenation and homosexualism and other perversions. Feminism likewise tears women away from their proper role as child-rearers, which lowers the White birthrate and creates more tension between the sexes.
[Racist. Bye. –pzm]
</OT>
Video embeds (if you really must; personally I’d rather see a link, but that’s maybe just me):
sadunlap, your problem was that the url was that of a playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=LLU5vx2Ai9vBPEhGgrmWVppw&v=yqMcOTlIxBc
(see the bolded part?)
You need to find the actual video, which will have a URL ending in /watch?v=[alpha-numerical-string] and paste that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
</OT>
lapouge:
Gosh, we’ve never heard that before! Troll better, dimwit.
Evidenceless?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
Thanks for the prima facie evidence you are a misogynist fuckwit who’s testament is bullshit without evidence, and therefore can be dismissed without evidence.
You can go home now….
Yeah, wow, that sure put us in our place and demonstrated how very, very wrong we are. I think I’ll go join the BNP now, thanks.
lapouge #17:
Well then, consider me a degenerate pervert.
Why is it that people who obsess over how other people have sex, and with whom, consider those other people to be the perverts? I think maybe they should look in a mirror sometime.
@15, 20, lapouge
Ah yes, communist regimes killed people…therefore they killed people “in the name of social justice”…therefore advocating for “socal justice” is bad? or something?
(With logic like that, we might as well declare that the nazis were also killing peoiple in the name of “social justice”. I mean, they thought they were making the world a better place.)
But you didn’t even try to stick to that logic, you completely dropped it in the next post! You just came here with your morally bankrupt views:
These are not perversions, tghey are morally good and opposing them is villainous.
No evidence of this consequence. No evidence of this declared “proper role”. Racism evident in the “White birthrate” nonsense.
I’m pretty sure feminism is kind of THE RESULT of “tensions”, called bigotry and inequality.
Oh my fucking Christ. Is lapouge seriously? Their post at 17 looks like it was cribbed from the fucking KKK. White birthrate? Proper role as child rearers? FUCKING MISCEGENATION? And random addition of homophobia for good measure?
Fuck the fuck off.
I’ve seen very few people more worthy of an insta-ban.
You got it, anteprepro. lapouge is heinous.
Hey lapouge…
I’m a white woman! I plan on never having children! BAHAHAHAHAHA
*waggles hips* no can haz, no can haz.
I’d be willing to believe that lapouge is just trolling, and vomiting out the most obvious trash just to get a response out of us and feel all special, but then I also know people who actually believe that trash, so… *shrug* either way, a pretty pathetic example.
@Rowan, 27
GASP!
@sadunlap
Don’t worry, it’s just an FTB thing, I think – all naked Youtube links are autoembedded. To link, you have to actually use html:
<a href=”URL HERE”>TEXT HERE</a> gets you TEXT HERE, where I’ve used # as a dummy URL
@lapouge
Wow. I’m amazed you’re capable of navigating your way around a computer. By the way, you probably shouldn’t, as the modern computer wouldn’t exist without Ada Lovelace or Alan Turing.
Obvious spelling error in my previous post is obvious.
Also, if lapouge is just trying to piss in our Cheerios, they are doing so in the most odious and slymetastic manner possible and it excuses nothing.
If they are actually a sincere and heartfelt bigot, they should learn to be more cautious. They have given the game away. Demographic Winter and all that shit about “oh noes whites are in decline and aren’t breeding enough!” was supposed to be Totally Not Racist You Guys. You are undermining your fellow Not Racists’ “plausible” deniability!
Dammit, now I’m torn between remaining childless and having a kid with my black boyfriend. Which is worse, to a Bad Guy like lapouge? Important information, I need to know!
Thinkin’ on it, what a great example of the point in the OP lapouge makes:
• Promotion of equal rights for LGBT people; good thing presented as bad.
• People being free to marry regardless of race: ditto.
• Promoting freedom from traditional roles for women (and, not coincidentally, men): ditto.
@SallyStrange-
Having the kid, of course, <SO MUCH SARCASM because then you've diluted the lily-white-ness of your blood with evil darkness. /SO MUCH SARCASM
If lapouge is some kind of “troll”, they should probably seek theraputic counselling for such antisocial and unempathetic behaviour, which is rather worrisome.
If the beliefs are sincere, that is also very worrisome.
I haz teh homosexualism?
Oh noez!
It’s kinda refreshing that the troll led off with the trifecta of bigotry. Usually they start with one, then lead to another, and we’re left guessing on the third.
Another term that’s been going around is Green Tea, from a Chinese report on GamerGate.
I think it’s a troubling term and shouldn’t be used myself.
Green Tea? The only slang use I know, of that, is as a term for cannabis.
Rowan @ 27:
I’m a woman. I’m childfree. I’m mixed race. I’m bisexual. I have been most seriously evil, in that I have kept a perfectly good white man all tied up in a relationship for 37 yearses. What’s worse is that I’m absolutely shameless about it all. Tsk.
ansatz @ 38:
How nice of you. Pity you don’t have a problem with all the misogyny.
Who cares? The only opinion of yours I have even mild interest in is this:
Are women your equal, and should not be subjected to rape and death threats because you shouldn’t ever get any yourself?
I’m having a very hard time imagining what green tea might refer to…
…inexperienced thieves?
<[OT]
@ Daz #18
Thank you. That was very helpful. FWIW I tried to post only the link but it auto-embeded. I also obtained the link by finding the video in my "likes" list then clicked on "share" from the video itself but for whatever reason YouTube included the bit you bolded in your response. A ha. Now I know what to look for in the future. Thanks for the patient and non-judgemental explanation.
<[/OT]
Umm, wasn’t the asshole banned?
Oh, I see xe renymed himself. Oh PZ will love that.
Yo, lapogue2:
Are you that desperate for your voice to be heard? You’re not going to get anywhere spreading your hate here. This is a progressive blog and I don’t know a single person here (and I’ve interacted with a fuckton of them) who is going to agree with your views on pretty much anything.
So from this fabulous “creature” to you: Fuck the fuck off. Please let the door hit you. Don’t come back, bc you’re not wanted.
Toodles (with extra sprinkles)
If we “deal with it”, will you go away?
I’m feeling extra gay today. Being gay is wonderful. Just like being heterosexual, asexual, and bisexual. It’s all wonderful.
I see lapouge2 has gone terminally stupid and ignorant.
Show me gays are not your equal. Personally, due to your ignorance and bigotry, they are your superiors.
All you have is presuppsitonal fuckwitted ignorant opinions, not links to the hard evidence found at places like Google Scholar, and they, like you, are dismissed as such.
Otherwise, bring on the real scientific/academic evidence…
Sorry to tell you lapounge, but you have wandered into a veritable hive of Teh Gays. Why, I’m a queer woman myself! Who is also white and childfree! Are you sure you want to engage with such diseased individuals? Your computer might get a virus.*
*I’m assuming lapounge is as knowledgeable about technology as they are about race and gender.
Oh, joy, a true bigot, headed for his banhammer patch. Where’s the hushfile patch?
Nerd @55:
That would be the *second* banhammer patch. Xe didn’t want to deprive us of hir insightful comments.
lapouge2:
Did you know this is a den of atheists too?
Lapounge has already been banned due to spouting vile racism. Please do not engage with banned troll horde, and could a mod send up a flag to alert PZ to the morphing please.? Nobodies eyeballs need to be assaulted with that filth that is being dumped in this thread.
Has anyone alerted PZ about this douchebag? Since banning isn’t enough it may be time to wipe their offensive and evidence less screeds.
Nothing of importance will be lost when PZ is done power spraying this thread.
An alert has been sent.
And anti-Semitism is added to the mix. What’s next I wonder?
@DAZ #39
绿茶婊
Er, I had a post that linked to an article explaining what it meant, but the url contained the word b-tch so it was caught by the filter.
I’ll just put it through a tiny url:
http://tinyurl.com/ox7n4n9
The website is, http://www.whatsonweibo.com/.
The title of the article is “The ‘Green Tea B-tch’ – Stereotyping Chinese Women”.
So yeah, it’s pretty bad.
Thanks Mellow Monkey!
And posted a ton of inept posts
And copy-pasted a wall of text like it was some porn stolen from his dad’s closet he was eager to show his middle-school classmates.
And proclaimed his inherent intellectual superiority to an audience much more erudite than him.
And indulged in crude apologetics of racial determinism bordering on fetichizing inbreeding in a fucking biologist own fucking backyard.
Isn’t he sweet? Weeks, months even spent getting angry blog rants decorticating the downward spiral of educated, successful, can’t-believe-they’re-being-that-stupid-in-public media-darlings like Maher & Dawkins & Harris… And suddenly here comes one genuine, Honest to God, pure, beautiful intellectually cack-handed old school bigot.
I still suspect lapouge2 doesn’t believe any of that, and is just a-trolling (it’s a rather perfect tour de force of horrible). But then, who names themselves after a 19th century eugenicist? Or is reincarnation true, and has he finaly figured out the internet? If so, that’s an impressive resume: Georges Lapouge, asshole of the 19th, 20th, and 21st century.
gakxz1 @70:
There’s no reason not to believe this fuckstain is anything other than a racist, misogynistic, homophobic, sexist, anti-Semitic stain upon humanity.
We judge people based on their comments on a regular basis, so there’s no reason not to do the same to this new specimen.
lapouge2
Give it up.
You will be purged.
They used to call us n****r-lovers, too. Can’t say I’m in favor of the racial slur, but sure, I’m generally in favor of all humanity.
I wonder what the words were in earlier eras, or other cultures. The ones that you got called if you were of the privileged class and gave two flips about people when that was clearly not the proper thing to do.
Tony @73
Ohh, I’m not saying he not be judged and nixed either way. At best, he’s snickering away at the horrible comments the internet has granted him the freedom of posting (and in being fine with disseminating horrible things, believes them on some level). At worst, he’s actually a card carrying KKK member. Nix either way, but for his sake (and everyone elses), I optimistically hope it’s the former.
Oh, look, this one thinks an IQ test means anything more than how well someone answers a bunch of questions (certainly not a measure of intelligence).
Bless thy heart.
Just a reminder, do not put a number on your responses in this thread. Some of these comments will be deleted at some point.
lapouge2
From the very beginning IQ test have measured the ability to perform on IQ tests.
“race” has always been less relevant than economic class.
Our insane racist interloper has been banned and purged. I imagine he’ll be back. #gamergate’s bedfellows are a charming bunch, aren’t they?
I wonder how inventive the next nym will be…
Heh.
I just hit boingboing, and the 2nd post up is this one:
Social Justice Warrior (and more) badges
Cuttlefish is obviously a Social Justice Bard.
Tony! The Queer Shoop @70, I’m betting it will be something Pinker-related.
Interesting…
I just got a comment on my blog (which isn’t released from moderation, and will be deleted in a second). It was in response to my comment @62. The comment said “right back at you shit for brains”. Guess who it was from…eric atkinson…racist douchebag extraordinaire.
@Owlmirror
I’m definitely a Social Justice Ranger… though I might try to aim for Social Justice Dread Pirate by level 15.
sadunlap #44:
To create a link:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzcpUdBw7gs">YOUR LINKY-TEXT*</a>
produces:
YOUR LINKY-TEXT*
*technically known as the anchor text.
You’re welcome, and I hope that helps further.
Eric Atkinson? That is a putrid past from the past.
Tony (upthread)
According to Lewis Carroll, that should read “fabulous monster“. ;) (What matters is that you’re fabulous, hey? Right?)
Rowan @27
Best laugh of the morning.
I want to be a social justice owlbear. :(
You can a set of Social Justice Class buttons at GeekGirlCon next week.
http://www.themarysue.com/social-justice-pins/
Tony! 36 and 47.
Me too. Every time i have to endure the existence of one of these homophobic shitstains, i get a real urge to slap them with all the gay i have and this pops into my mind:
It’s Friday night.
I’m putting on my highest heels.
My shortest skirt.
My best device for concealing my penis,
and I got everything I need.
OW!
I got my body,
got my lips,
got a pocket full of Hawthornes,
p-p-p-pocket full of Hawthornes.
Get called a “White Knight”: Still illegal to stab them with a lance. Now that’s unfair.
Eh. Isn’t a white knight just some rich guy who rescues damsels in distress in exchange for a vagina-based reward?
http://oglaf.com/princess/
SFW, unusually for Oglaf. Best not to browse the site if you’re unfamiliar with its usual material, though.
laurentweppe @ 9:49pm
Gauche of me, I’m sure, but your ugly reference to left-handed people does not impress me as the best way to call someone else a bigot.
Cack is an old British term for shit (Latin cacare) and cack-handed is a reference to cultures that require everyone to eat from communal dishes with their right hands and reserve their left hands for cleaning off their asses.
Anymore @82, to paraphrase Ghostbusters, if someone asks if you’re a princess, say yes.
JohnnieCanuck @83, are you sure about that? A quick google shows a couple of definitions citing old words for ‘awkwardness’, which is certainly the association I’ve always had for the word. The first definition that cited ‘shit’ was the Urban Dictionary, which I’d trust far less than Mirriam-Webster.
I can understand the use of ‘White Knight’ as an epithet. I (and this is just me) see a white knight as someone who jumps in to save someone or something with, sometimes, no clue what the actual situation is. Or jumps into a situation uninvited. A white knight seems to be about saving someone, an individual (who will hopefully be most thankful (physically or monetarily (think of the term ‘knight errant))).
And I have been accused of ‘white knighting’. And I thought it odd as all I did was ask why a particularly odious troll was ignoring Iyeska’s comments.
As for social justice warrior? Can anyone think of any better reason to be a warrior? Not in the literal sense — killing people — but in the sense of changing society and altering the body politic. If my writing, my monetary contributions, my participation in protests, my choices regarding who and what I spend my money on — which companies get my moolah — if it does not promote social justice, what the fuck is the point?
I don’t think I have been called a social justice warrior in any of the comment threads but, if I ever am, I will wear that as a badge of honour.
Athywren, #14
That’s precisely what I immediately thought of! Mitchell and Webb skits are applicable in so many situations.
Whenever I hear the term feminazi, my first reaction is, “Were the Nazis known for their feminist views?”
I dislike “social justice warrior” because war is unjust and immoral. Militarism makes matters worse.
I used to want to be an “atheist paladin” but … Deep rifts.
Ogvorbis #86:
Not necessarily ‘no clue’, more that the the only important thing is the presence of a damsel. The details of a the damsel’s distress aren’t important… it is just an opportunity to show what a paragon of virtue and honor you are by rescuing her!
Rowan, thank you for that – you gave me such a happy laugh :-)
I think “skeevy self-declared nice guy” is an accurate description of the sorts you’re thinking of.
I think the meaning of “white knight” is also context sensitive. It’s common in some places for someone to stand up for a woman being abused in some fashion and immediately get labeled a “white knight” as people crack jokes, “She’s not going to have sex with you!” in an attempt to poison the well. There might also be a conscious or unconscious campaign of mutating the sarcastic use of the term to refer to those who jump in with good intentions but are counter-productively ignorant of the situation as Ogvorbis describes @86 to associate any sympathy for women with the false “niceness” of such self-declared nice guys.
A commenter and arguer who does that may be trying to manipulate the situation so that they only have to argue with a single person. It’s a very weird appeal to “fairness” almost.
I’m going to level up my social justice pixie. :-)
Bad example of a “white knight”: People who insult Princess Toadstool because she never gives Mario a “reward” (meaning, going out with him).
Good example: People who think Mario’s a cool guy because he saves the kingdom because that’s what heroes do. (Also, who think it’s cool when every now and then that Princess saves those plumbers, as in Super Princess Peachy Keen.)
A lot to come out of a series that started out as a graphics designer’s cheap rip-off of Popeye in game form (on a system so limited it couldn’t even store data for any more sprites than the game already had in it).
Well, that doesn’t really matter. What matters is that they can call me Polly Anna or say I’m crazy as a loon, but I think I’ll keep on thinking of being a “hero” as a good thing. I should hope that if I lived in a place where homeless people were often on the streets, and where I actually walked to get from place to place, I might actually stop to help them. At least some of them seem to be ditching the bandwagon… though not in enough numbers to make a significant dent yet. Keep it up, eventually this movement should fade like bubbles in sea foam.
I know that traditionally the stories of white knights and samurai were a lot more heroic than the reality, but I’m okay with the inspirational parts of those stories, as ideals, and also with removing the sexist parts of those ideals.
Marcus @88:
All wars are wrong. Sometimes fighting a war is just and moral, though the war itself be wrong.
I apologize, though. I was not trying to invoke a militaristic view of a warrior — I even wrote “Not in the literal sense — killing people — but . . .” so not sure how that got lost. Sorry. My bad.
anym @86:
Which is what I was aiming for with the “sometimes, no clue.” Again, sorry for my writing.
Saad @#87:
Considering the existence of things like the Mutterkreuz, a medal given to German women who raised four or more children for the homeland, with a gold version for eight or above… I’m going to say ‘not particularly, no’.
It’s worth remembering that the most famous white knight, fictionally speaking, is a not-very-effective would-be protector and defender of what’s good. See Carroll’s Through the Looking Glass.
Is there a character class that embraces pacifism (with the occasional sneaky-but-non-violent shenanigans)?
My own biggest issue with “white knight” is the “knight” part. Well, now that I think of it, “white”, too. I really *like* that more and more of the terrible people use “SJW”, I’d much rather be called that one.
@WMDKitty
There is a Pacifist class. I can’t help but feel that they don’t exactly fit in with a game that gives you experience mostly for killing things, but they do exist. There are also “technical pacifist” Clerics, who aren’t really pacifists but took a feat that increases their healing at the cost of becoming dazed if they injure a bloodied enemy. Then there’s the Combat Pacifist prestige class, mostly drawn from the stabbier classes, which basically makes you knock things out rather than kill them… I wonder if they can still use cleave?
The term doesn’t specify what the warrior is fighting for.
The video in comments 7 and 9 may not have been intended, but everyone should watch it anyway. It fits in with this thread.
Athywren
Thanks. SJCombat Pacifist it is! Clonking things over the head with a big stick is kinda my style. (But that’s only if I can’t talk my way out.)
Yeah, about the whole SS “skulls on their caps” thing…
What about a military unit whose logo features the grim reaper with glowing red eyes, which receives executive orders to kill people who are unarmed, outside of active combat zones, in foreign sovereign states who are not even at war, with no judicial oversight.
I think anyone on the same side as a group like that probably has good reason to take a long hard look at themselves, and seriously deliberate on the question “Are we the baddies?”
My standard statement: If you are aligning yourself with those in power to attack those without, you are by definition a villain.
sc_numbers @ 105
OT:
If you look in the upper right of your screen, you should be able to click your name, go to your profile page and set a display name that’s intelligible.