They’ve got a new angle to crush the dairy industry.
Did I say new angle? I meant same old angle: histrionics, fear, and lies.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
They’ve got a new angle to crush the dairy industry.
Did I say new angle? I meant same old angle: histrionics, fear, and lies.
Their site doesn’t even provide sources for their claims. They must think everyone is gullible.
I think Autism is caused by climate change. Hey, it’s bullshit, but at least I can point to a correlation!
The things you learn at PETA! Always amazing. The problem is, next week I will have actual real parents in my clinic who will have read this and who will question me about it. #shitjustgotreal
Time we linked increase in autism to the rise of PETA.
Didn’t recent research pretty much put any postnatal causes of Autism, since the brain structure is different in a way that could only have formed during prenatal development?
Forget PETA, join PETfir
Let’s put them and antivaxxers in a room.
As much as I enjoy general PETA bashing, could somebody explain why their claims are wrong?
@barbaz
Because there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they are right. No one has ever proven a link between the consumption of dairy and the onset of autism, and as far as I’m aware no one other than PETA has ever even suggested it; though I could be wrong on the latter point.
I’m sure we’ll see some parents refusing to breastfeed their baby because they now think dairy leads to autism…
100% of people with any form of autism have drunk water.
Which is about what their claim amounts to.
Dairy? I thought gluten was the cause of autism. The “research” must have changed. Snark obviously intended.
@ barbaz
I actually read the PETA crap after I became aware of it. There is no evidence at all in the short article on their website, only a) saying there are studies showing improvement of autistic children when they skip dairy products (which studies?), b) mentioning an (unnamed, most likely non-existing) mother who´s son showed autism after she gave him cow milk, and c) saying that other illnesses show links to milk consumption (again which studies, the links to other PETA websites don´t give them either).
That´s it. No references to real research. No information anyone can use to get more and unbiased data.
And of course no possibility to comment on the PETA website and point this out because comments are disabled.
No evidence presented at all. We have a quoted anecdote and a couple of unsighted scientific studies. Well one was from the University of Rome… should be easy enough to find . The other? No mention at all about the source… but it did have 20 children in it! Wow, I’m convinced.
Seems to be a lot of confirmation bias going around these days. Peta want to believe drinking milk causes autism so they can pursue their agenda of eliminating (or reducing) dairy cow numbers. In many respects I can support the idea that the diary industry needs to change, especially given the brutal way in which the industry is run. But I wont support unreferenced assertions and accept anecdotes as proof the industry needs to change. Just because some poorly sourced information fits your narrative that doesn’t make it a fact.
The same applies to a lot of the armchair psychiatry that has been taking place on these pages of late.
To expand on my #8; some Googling found me the actual story on their website.
They mention two studies, neither of which is linked to or cited. So you cannot verify that the studies even exist, let alone that they say what PETA says they say, nor if they are half decent science even if they do exist and do say what PETA says they say. PETA then claim that: , and then go on to give an anecdotal sob story from a mother who claims that removing cow’s milk from her (potentially allergic) young son’s diet cured his ear infections, in the apprent belief that this somehow proves their point. No stories, anecdotal or otherwise, in which the removal of cow’s milk from a person’s diet has cured their autism are either linked to or cited, or even quoted. .
That is why they are wrong, and that’s completely leaving aside the rather problematic phrasing of the bit I quoted in Comic Sans.
borax, Somehow “diary” has been added-to the “gluten” claim. I don’t know when or why or by whom, but some trivial searching with, e.g., Generalissimo Google™, shows the two are frequently mentioned by the nutter sites (along with vaccines) as “proven [sic] causes of autism”.
I’m sorry, I have to quote their quote, because it’s so ridiculous.
Apparently, this proves that dairy causes autism. Because MEAT IS MURDER!11!! Or something.
People for the ethical treatment of animals? How about a little ethical treatment of people on the autism spectrum? Or of women? Or of the victims of fat shaming, especially if they are women who wish to maintain control of their own fertility?
Or is their capacity for empathy strictly limited to non-human recipients?
They don’t even want ethical treatment of animals. They want animals to be in the wild, or dead. As a veterinary technician, I hate PETA with an unmatched passion.
I think Autism is caused by climate change. Hey, it’s bullshit, but at least I can point to a correlation!
Can you? Is there any actual real evidence that autism is increasing? Most of the studies I’ve seen have suggested that it’s more about diagnostic substitution and increased awareness of mild cases than any real evidence of a true increase in incidence. So, sorry, but I’m going to have to question your correlation (but would be interested in any evidence that I’m wrong, of course.)
Gregory Greenwood @ 17:
Generally not, from my limited experience. They’re all about the fuzzy-wuzzy animals, but could care less for their fellow people.
There is a correlation between autism and dairy and gluten. Most people on the autism spectrum are intolerant/allergic to dairy and/or gluten. Here is just one link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3540005/
This does not mean that dairy/gluten causes autism. It just means that those on the spectrum function better without dairy/gluten.
@16 — oh good grief. The kid didn’t even have autism — he had milk allergies. The idiot mother switched him from soy to cow? She ought to have her parenting license revoked.
———
Mashed bananas and peas also are correlated with autism. And any other kind of baby food you care to mention. And water. And breathing. And wearing disposable diapers. And wearing cloth diapers. And wearing onesies. Or not wearing onesies. And using pacifiers. And teething. And potty training. And sunshine. And cribs. And circumcision.
Until we know what causes autism, everything is correlated with it.
A link between dairy products and autism? That’s fucking ridiculous. Every kid in my generation drank cows’ milk, starting as soon as they got off breast milk or formula. And by “drank” I mean “guzzled daily with every meal as well as between meals.” Our parents bought the stuff by the gallon, ferfucksake, and TV ads reminded us every ten minutes that it was good and necessary for proper growth. Then there’s those other perennial kids’ favorites, cheese and ice cream. If dairy products had any role in causing autism, chances are every grade-school in the country would have been at least half-full of autistic kids.
They’re all about the fuzzy-wuzzy animals, but could care less for their fellow people.
They don’t seem to care much more for real animals either. PETA are nothing but a bunch of relentless, desperate attention-whores with nothing useful to say.
Maybe there is connection between autism and sex as in: if you have sex, there is a higher chance your children will have autism than if you do not have any ever.
Rowan vet-tech @ 18;
So they can’t even manage meaningful ethical treament of, or compassion for, animals? Which leads one to wonder what the purpose of the organisiation is, beyond the creation of misogynistic, soft-core shock ads that seem rather more interested in replicating pornographic tropes and sexually objectifying women than in actually advancing animal rights.
I would say that intent is not magic, or words to that effect, and that a good end does not justify unethical means, but the more I lern about PETA, the more I doubt that they are really motivated by a concern for animal welfare at all, since so many of their actions seem to be so utterly counterproductive to that goal. It seems more and more likely to me that their intent was not good in the first place, or at least has been so corrupted now that their original intent may as well hail from another world.
They have released animals from a different habitat into the wild, uncaring of the ecological damage caused or that the released animals will mostly die of starvation or an inability to adapt to that climate, or if they do prove well adapted will decimate local species and harm biodiversity.
They also advocate for an end to pet ownership without even bothering to consider what will happen to millions of domesticated pets that are ill suited to live in the wild. Mass killing would be the likely outcome, as would be the case if all domesticated livestock ownership had to come to a similarly abrupt end.
They do and say all of this, causing immense animal suffering in the process, and yet they expect us to accept that they should be viewed as the final authority on animal welfare issues?
What happened PETA? Are the ads with naked and barley clothes women not working anymore?
Have they no shame at all? No sense of honesty? Some things PETA advocates for I am a strong supporter of as well. Other things, not so much. But whatever your end goals, if you can’t get there without using blatantly dishonest and hateful tactics, the world would be better off without your efforts.
Xaivius (Formerly Robpowell, Acolyte of His Majesty Lord Niel DeGrasse Tyson I) @ 20;
They certainly don’t care about people, as you say, and especially women, but as Rowan vet-tech and Raging Bee say, they don’t really care much about fuzzy animals either.
@21: Thank you for providing the link to a review of the use of diet in autism. The study didn’t make nearly as strong a claim as you did. From their conclusions: “Experimental studies on the use of a GFD, CFD, or combinatorial GFCF diet for ASCs have suggested an amelioration of symptoms and improved developmental outcome for at least a proportion of people on the autistic spectrum. That being said, various methodological issues potentially biasing results remain which, combined with a lack of generalizable information on mode of action and best-responder data, have limited the impact of such findings over the years.”
In other words, the strongest conclusion that they’re willing to draw is that a limited diet MIGHT be useful in SOME patients with ASD, but that the data is not high quality and therefore it is of limited value in terms of making recommendations for medical care outside the experimental setting. They call for more controlled studies to determine if the effect is real. They also acknowledge the dangers of limiting diet in a population where there may already be significant nutritional difficulties due to sensory dysintegration and an already limited diet due to preference/tolerance of taste and texture (aka “being picky”.)
Finally, read the COI statement. This is a group of researchers with a vested interest in finding a connection. That doesn’t mean that they’re wrong, but the data should be considered in light of their probable biases (which may be unconscious.)
An article on Science Based Medicine by Steven Novella elucidates on PETA and their embrace of this pseudoscience.
Atterdag @ #21, try actually reading that article you linked to. I still can’t figure out where you find ‘Most people on the autism spectrum […]’ or that this, ‘It just means that those on the spectrum function better without dairy/gluten.’ is a reasonable conclusion to reach from that article.
The first bloody paragraph of the article you linked to specifically hedges against such an overreaching conclusion.
To quote:
The conclusion is essentially a case of ‘we need more and better studies’ and ‘there is not enough information that a successful (poorly defined in this case) for specific indications is likely given the lack of supportive data.’
God-dammit. It’s easy enough to read. UGH!
Oh, and here’s Steve Novella’s blog
PETA basically needs to die out, fade away. As long as they exist and continue to be as they are now, they are just damaging the reputation of anyone who actually does care about the welfare and/or rights of animals. They are absurd. Maybe they might wind up pushing the Overton Window but as it is now, I can only see PETA helping their own alleged cause entirely by accident. They are liability, not an asset.
That should obviously read, ‘the first bloody paragraph of the conclusion of the article …
Also, Dianne beat me to it and was nicer.
+bqAs much as I enjoy general PETA bashing, could somebody explain why their claims are wrong?
You don’t have to. What is claimed without evidence can be rejected without argument.
Oh I do hate PETA. They have to come out with utter lies to keep themselves funded by feeding on the hysteria.
From my own anecdotal observations, what once was called “mental retardation” back in the 70s is now called “autism”. It has struck me as a sop to the parents who have had the misfortune to have a child who is disabled intellectually. It allows them to blame something other than themselves and not always perfect biology. The way the diagnosis is thrown around, I’m sure that I would have been diagnosed as at least Aspbergers because I dared to be introverted and interested in certain things.
I should not rage-write, I become slightly incoherent. There’s a word missing. Those who are good at fill in the blank will successfully place the word ‘outcome’ in the appropriate spot.
God, but PETA makes me mad and for whatever reason the misinformation around autism and the spectrum make me irate.
hexidecima @ #35
You have two comments left to remark intelligently before I rip into that paragraph of stupidity. I will be mean about it.
For some reason, PETA always makes me think of the Brad Pitt character in Twelve Monkeys.
hexidecima
Your anecdotal observations are bullshit.
With love from a parent of a kid on the ASD range who started school early and reads about 2 years ahead of her age.
I have this idea that PETA are actually a false-flag operation intended to discredit those who are genuinely working for improvements in animal welfare.
call me mark, fantasies can be nice. The reality of PETA, on the other hand, shouldn’t be hid from.
Thomathy, you are correct, point conceded.
Gregory Greenwood:
What ridiculous sophistry. I know it isn’t original to you (heard this shit plenty of times before), but please do not repeat it.
There being an “end” to something does not imply it is an “abrupt end.” We could stop creating more and more of these animals every day, as we are doing now. And by “stop,” I likewise do not mean some sudden, catastrophic event that must happen simultaneously across the globe: the rate can gradually be reduced to zero. It takes zero imagination to recognize this, along with a shred of honesty.
My non-autistic son drinks about 2-3 gallons of milk per week.
My autistic son has always hated milk to the point that if he has to drink it, it makes him vomit.
You are wrong about every part of that.
And fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Fuck you, you smug, ignorant sack of shit.
No, the diagnosis you’re looking for is “asshole”.
Hexidecima @ 35
Fail.
consciousness razor @ 43
All true, but in the case I was referring to PETA was suggesting a very abrupt end, along the lines of comparing animal husbandry to the nazi death camps and thereby strongly presenting it as an evil that must be ended immediately, without suggestng how that could be done in such a short time frame.
I am not suggesting that anuimal husbandry should not be ended at all, but rather that PETAs approach to the topic is toxic to say the elast
Yes, I did not read carefully. Try this one instead:
http://ariconference.com/enews/treatment.pdf
@Hexidecima
Nope. Mental Retardation, now called Intellectual Disability, is defined by a very low IQ score, impaired mental function, and impaired functional skills as relates to one’s environment. It is a general heading under which many different conditions fall; two of which are Down’s Syndrome and Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, and none of which are Alzheimer’s or any derivative thereof.
So you are factually wrong, as well as obnoxious, offensive, somewhat ableist, and downright lazy since it took me five seconds on Google to find all that out.
atterdag, no. Try reading the blog by Steve Novella. He links to good review studies there. The simple fact is that there is no good data supportive of the hypothesis that dairy has an effect on autism, either causative or behavioural.
I was naive enough to engage a PETA rep in discussion about sheep farming a few years ago> I live in North Yorkshire and the moors are grazed by what are essentially free range sheep. Most of the ewes are kept for wool, the sheep and the farmers manage the landscape, and I was struggling to find much of a downside. If this didn’t happen, then there would be no sheep – they would be extinct. Mr PETA said they would probably be allowed to run wild, or failing that, extinction was “better than being exploited”.
In other words almost any relationship between humans and animals, no matter how caringly, and sensitively managed is unacceptable to them
atterdag, the original criticisms to your first link still apply to this new one. One, it leaves little to no room to believe that the dairy causes the autism. Two, it goes out of its way to warn that these general trends shouldn’t be generalized too much. And of course, the most recent article also mentions increased food allergies to things like chocolate, peanuts, and artificial coloring. These are allergies and digestive problems. It is not Revenge of the Cows or whatever shit PETA wants to fearmonger people into believing
@52, I never suggested diet is a cause, but for a majority on the spectrum life is better without dairy/wheat.
You’re the one “suggesting” that for them. They’ve done no such thing.
If someone called attention to the Holocaust itself and how utterly horrible it is, would you then think they were saying we ought to nuke the site from orbit, just to be sure? No, it’s obviously a very bad thing — that much is certain — but there are many options. We don’t have to leave our brains at the door when deciding what to do about this very bad thing. And picking the least reasonable of the options, to project it onto the person calling attention to the problem (despite ostensibly agreeing with them), is not appropriate. Even if that person is acting like a total fucker, it is not rational or useful to start strawmanning them.
But go right ahead and say their general approach is toxic, if that’s all you actually wanted to say. They’re a bunch of fuckers. I wouldn’t disagree with that.
Citation fucking needed, because I’m on the spectrum and I personally wouldn’t consider that a “life” at all.
For instance, we could send everyone’s pets to PETA’s “no-kill” shelters, that’d gradually reduce their population to zero.
Also, atterdag, you might be interested in noting that the Autism Research Institute (ARI) is not regarded as a quality institute. The summary paper you link to relies on an informal survey of parents to assess the effectiveness of the reviewed treatments. The ARI also supports chelation therapy as well a other bogus and harmful interventions.
I’m suspicious of a review study that relies on resources of the ARI. It is also suspicious that in virtually every single case the parental review of the treatment shows around a 50% ‘Better’ (improvement) result after the treatment. This reeks of bias and is an incredibly weak tool to assess efficacy besides. The review also takes liberty at times with adjectives like ‘most’ and ‘significant’ with no citation to justify their use. The review also appears to overstate the quality of some cited studies as well as the conclusions of those studies.
It’s not a good review, even without the consideration of the obvious biases of the ARI.
atterdag @ #55
It is evidently untrue that, ‘for a majority on the spectrum life is better without dairy/wheat.’
Making non existent causation to autism is not the only thing PETA has in common with Jenny McCarthy.
Again, the current research does not support the hypothesis that a majority of people on the autism spectrum have dairy or wheat intolerance/allergy nor that a specific diet free of one or both will lead to noticeable or positive changes.
Your inability to assess the reviews that you’ve put forward do not lend you any credibility. You should stop to think why you care at all to put forth a confirming review of the research into the effect of a dairy- or wheat-free diet on autistic behaviour. You should also take time to carefully read other reviews on the subject that don’t have bias and that don’t directly contradict the hypothesis you support.
consciousness razor @ 56;
I failed to convey my point dismally. Apologies.
In the interests of abiding by the first rule of holes, I will have a little quiet time now, I think.
Which is not to say that you’ll find studies that don’t directly contradict the hypothesis that you keep putting forward. There doesn’t appear to be an unbiased review that supports a conclusion other than, ‘we need more research’ or ‘there doesn’t appear to be an effect based on current research.’
The problem with dairy/gluten is that for many people it produces an innate immune response, which makes it very difficult to identify the cause. You may have noticed that immune responses make people feel bad, which causes their behavior to decline.
@atterdag
I think, at best, what can be claimed is that “some people with autism may also suffer from celiac disease or have milk allergies”. Just like people without autism.
I have an anecdote of my own – I know a family where all three of the children are on the Autism spectrum, two of them very severely. They all function better when gluten is eliminated from their diets. (And fully eliminated, ie: not even a whisper of gluten in the whole house.) The children are much less screamy when they are off-gluten and better able to communicate. BUT one must also realize that their mother, who is not autistic, is diagnosed with celiac disease.
What part of “citation needed” did you not understand?
Azkyroth, and what part about the fact that there is no good evidence for that is so difficult for atterdag to understand?
There’s not going to be a citation. The supportive data that atterdag would like there to be just doesn’t exist.
atterdag
How does behavior decline?
What does that even mean?
That first sentence doesn’t even make sense. ‘innate immune response,’ is an incoherent string of words. Atterdag, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
As for the rest, it is trivial to show that when a person feels bad their behaviour is affected. That would be directly entailed by the ‘feels’ part; it is logically necessary. Of course, that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether there is any evidence that ‘most’ or some ‘significant’ amount of people on the autism spectrum have allergies to gluten or dairy (or enzymatic deficiencies leading to poor digestive function). There clearly is not such evidence.
@66 – For those with an innate immune response to dairy/gluten, the best way to determine if dairy/gluten is a problem is to eliminate it from the diet and rely on a subjective measure if it is a problem or not. Therefore, it is easy to say it does not exist because hard evidence is lacking, yet the subjective measures of those on the autistic spectrum show a majority to have an issue.
@69 – Seriously??? You are on your best behavior when you are sick?
@67 and @68 it is pretty easy to use a search engine and find plenty of reading on the subject.
atterdag#71
Dang, borked the blockquotes #72
atterdag#71
Gee, I can do a search and claim there are plenty of hits for a young Earth. But there will no proper and solid scientific evidence to be found in those hits. Why don’t you bring a few of what you consider the best here, and really show use this alleged solid and conclusive evidence. Or do you know it is all very weak and presuppositional BS?
chigau @ 69
I’m gonna take a guess* and say that the children are not following a strict, arbitrary and archaic list of behaviors that atterdag (and many others, I’ve met) feels are “normal” therefor they are declining.
*which, I suspect was your point (please correct me if I’m wrong).
YOB #74
I expect you’re correct.
I was thinking ‘decline in blood pressure’ or ‘decline in gas prices’ so it made no sense.
Right. That makes people cranky and irritable. These are the diagnostic criteria for autism:
Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Want to explain how feeling bad causes those particular behaviors?
Here are the diagnostic criteria for autism and for severity/type.
Re autism and impaired intellectual function: Severe autism can lead to people who can’t talk and can’t interact with others effectively and this can look a lot like IIF, especially if the evaluator doesn’t know much about autism or doesn’t look carefully. And, yes, there has been some diagnostic substitution (children who would have been diagnosed as IIF in the past now being diagnosed with severe autism) which has led to an apparent increase in severe autism (though the number of cases of SA + IIF is about stable over time, with one diagnosis decreasing as the other increases). But the change is occurring because of heightened awareness of autism, not in order to spare the parents’ egos or whatever else was being implied.The distinction is important since the treatment is different.
That is not the answer to the question I asked.
Really?
For those with an innate immune response to dairy/gluten, the best way to determine if dairy/gluten is a problem is to eliminate it from the diet and rely on a subjective measure if it is a problem or not.
Actually, the best way to diagnose celiac disease is to have a biopsy of the intestine while actively eating gluten containing foods. Eliminating gluten can lead to a false negative. This is important because celiac disease is associated with a risk of stomach and intestinal lymphomas and so making the diagnosis is important. Whether there are non-celiac disease gluten allergies is still unclear.
The hypothesis that autism is related to dietary sensitivity is intriguing, but at best unproven. And there are real risks to eliminating certain foods from one’s diet for no good reason. Especially an autistic child who is likely to be pretty difficult to get to eat a balanced diet in the first place. It’s not a benign intervention and shouldn’t be undertaken lightly. I’d suggest that it be done in the context of a clinical trial, if there is enough evidence to convince an IRB to allow such a trial.
Feeling bad does not = autism!!!
Like many I get hay fever. Running nose, watering eyes, negative feelings towards anything with chlorophyl, wheezy breath.
So I take generic Claritin. What I don’t do is suddenly come down with autism!!!
Other things that make me feel bad i.e. cranky are…internet trolls, quacks, and crackpots. Like atterdag. Go away atterdag. You are creating a nation of autistics just by posting nonsense on the net.
@81 – There is a simple blood test for celiac screening, and yes the biopsy is still the definitive test. However for idiopathic gluten sensitivity, there is no test other than an elimination diet available to a patient. Note the term idiopathic; gluten sensitivity is not fully understood. It is clear that it exists, some aspects are understood. I have never stated or implied that diet is a cause of autism; that is others comprehension failures. Nobody knows why the majority on the autism spectrum does better on a gluten/dairy free diet. No pharmaceutical will get rich off of elimination diets. Happily, there are still researchers investigating.
So, what is PETA’s take on Lions, Tigers, Hyenas and various other meat eaters?
atterdag:
Are you even reading the responses you’ve been getting? If you are, are you comprehending them?
No actually, that’s far and away the absolute worst possible way to determine whether there is a problem. Do you have any understanding of medical science at all? I ask because you say this:
If the hard evidence is lacking, and all you have it subjective evidence, then how can we know it’s anything better than a Placebo? The reason why we have double-blind studies in the first place is because subjective measures are absolute shit at determining objective reality. There’s a reason why we have to go out of our way to try and make sure every single drug/treatment/whatever is better than just wishful thinking.
@86 omnicron: I agree with you, but there’s even a further complication in the context of autism, at least severe autism: If the outcome measure is subjective (feeling better) in a non-verbal subject, then the evaluation of whether the subject is “better” is going to come from the caretaker. So, what constitutes “better”? A child with severe autism who is quieter and less prone to, say, repetitive behaviors on a gluten free or dairy free diet may be “better” because he or she is feeling better and is better able to interact with the world in a more normal way (i.e. their autistic behaviors may be lessened), but they may also be quieter and doing less because they’re very hungry after being deprived of food that they are able to eat and are quiet because their blood sugar is too low to do much.
For starters Idiopathic does not mean that scientists are throwing their hands in the air and saying “I dunno, stop eating wheat”, idiopathic means “We aren’t fully aware of where this is coming from or what brought this on”. Gluten sensitivity has a real effect on the body even if we aren’t always sure what causes it, and therefore people who are Gluten sensitive can be diagnosed because something objective is happening. We don’t need a completely subjective measure.
However you have yet to provide any good evidence that diet has a significant effect on behavior for people in the Autism Spectrum. This is why you get pushback, you may not be arguing that diet is a cause of autism, but you conclusion that diet correlates with improvement of autism is unsupported by any evidence you bring to the table. Your line @71 where you tell others to get a search engine is a tell that you are not arguing in good faith, YOU have the made the claim, so YOU provide the evidence.
As so many others have said atterdag, Citation needed.
What does this even mean? Or are you suggesting that real scientists are being bought off by Big Pharma while the true, scrappy, totally unscientific falsehood peddlers are the true researchers?
No pharmaceutical will get rich off of elimination diets.
Seriously? Maybe no pharma firm will get rich, but they aren’t the only big corporate power around. Where do you think gluten free pastries come from? Do almond and rice flour appear on supermarket shelves through spontaneous generation? The “gluten free” diet is big business. Merck may not be making money off of it but Archer Daniels Midland almost certainly is.
And nobody’s attacking you for saying that. What you did say was “for a majority on the spectrum life is better without dairy/wheat.”, a statement that has corollary implications, whether you intend them or not, and for which you have been repeatedly asked for citation, and repeatedly refused to do so.
And don’t be so lazy as to ask us to do your fucking work for you. You make the claim, you present the evidence.
I’ll also add that I’m the step-parent of a 14 year old on the spectrum… and nothing pisses me off quite so much as using the increase in ASD diagnosis as a fear-mongering weapon for just about every fucking anti-this or that cause out there.
Timely.
Unevidenced claim, so it is ignored.
Ah, here we finally get to the NewAge/AltMed buzzwords. Explains your lack of evidence for your claims, and the lack of rigor and skepticism you show in evaluating data.
I believe that there is an inverse relationship with pirates, back when there were more pirates there was less autism. If we all become pirates, autism will disappear! Yarrrrrr!
.
At least that was one of the seven impossible things I tried to believe before breakfast this morning.
…can pills even own property?
Ray @93:
What were the other 6?
Or should we file that under “you don’t want to know”?
The link I provided @50 shows 68% percent report improvement on a dairy/gluten free diet. I don’t believe these are overly emotional placebo victims. What I am reacting to here is the assumption that because there are studies that fail to confirm a dairy/wheat issue with ASD, therefore, the problem does not exist. I believe that is a bad assumption, and that the problem is that science does not know how to measure it. There are too many reporting positives to ignore.
As for the research dollars, all I meant was that it won’t attract the big bucks.
@88 – As a patient, there is no test available from your doctor for gluten/dairy sensitivity. It took years of searching on my own before I figured it out, through an elimination diet.
Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) wrote:
Life without pizza…. *shudder*
atterdag wrote:
What’s a “placebo victim”? You know that the placebo effect is very real, and can affect you even if you are aware of it. In fact, there is research that shows that placebos that have noticeable side effects are more effective than those without. Drastically changing your diet often has side effects (some pleasant, some not).
Yes, life without pizza does suck.
The following two links tell you why pizza is such a great food:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9216246
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6099562
I don’t think you understand what the placebo effect is, or how it can result in bias, especially in studies that make use of self-reporting. Where do you get this idea that it requires people to be overly emotional? Reporting bias is a major component of the placebo effect and it does not require people be overly emotion, it creeps in everywhere and one has to be aware of it.
Atterdag, I looked at your “conclusive” report. Weak sauce, much of it self-reporting which I concluded was usually PLACEBO by proxy, not good solid evidence that anything was done. Also no link to the food problems causing autism, merely by secondary effects of food allergies exacerbating the problems of those with autism.
Still waiting for your smoking gun evidence.
These biases are part of human psychology, we have to be aware of them. It is not some horrible personal failure, and saying that self-reported studies suffer from this problem does not imply the subjects have a lack of emotional control. We have to be aware of it, we have to take it into account, and you cannot pretend it does not exist.
If I ever do another psychology study, I am totally naming the control group Overly Emotional Placebo Victims.
@100 – More comprehension issues. I never suggested that food allergies causes autism, and the report does not say that either. It says the majority do better on a dairy/gluten free diet. That means they feel better; nothing more.
I’m a scientist IRL. I’m also a skeptic, and when a paper gives off eau de alt med, I start looking for the biases of researches and how they present their evidence, and how they have controlled for self-reporting. Lack of controls is an obvious bias, but is typical of alt med.
Overly Emotional Placebo Victims would be a good band name.
I am not a scientist, but I play one on TV…okay no, but I do have a degrees in Physics/Computer Science and have a few papers to my name. Of course these biases do not generally play much of a role in the work I have done, however I have a strong interest in medical science, psychology and biology, and my girlfriend has a degree in medicinal chemistry and is going to med school, and I know a lot of people involved in these fields, so we talk about these issues a lot and one thing is very clear, one has to pay attention to this if you actually care about having results that can be taken seriously. All too often alt med studies brush these issues under the table, as do their supporters in the general public.
Right. If child psychologists evaluating the child, before and after, and reporting the improvement in autistic symptoms, I would be much more confident of the results than self reporting by the parents.
The only good I could see coming out of this is a parent who was either feeding their child raw milk (rare, I know, but it happens) and they stop, or they actually do a little bit of research on their own (outside of the “natural” blogosphere) and leave PETA permanently.
@ck #97
I consider life without pizza an unethical treatment of humans.
@84
Raise them on tofu?
When I was younger(late 80’s in the South),being a vegetarian and interested in animal rights was a very small group.I myself got into a literal fistfight with my dad when I told him I was becoming a vegetarian. Among our small group, PETA became something of a rallying cry, an example that others
in the world have concerns about animals are treated in an area that was hostile towards our ideas.
As I got older, I started to notice problems with my support of them. Not surprisingly, these problems
started becoming more apparent as PETA morphed from a smaller insular issue group to becoming a wealthy and powerful organization. Its abhorrent attitudes towards no-kill shelters, at the time when even cities were moving toward no-kill shelters was a bit of a shock to me. Using sex to sell the cause was just another example of their problems.
It’s been long since I was a PETA supporter, and this stupid, unscientific poster is just another example
of how corrupt they have become. The organization that used to report cruelty to animals in factory farms are now flouting useless scientific claims, and building a huge pile of money for Newkirk to spend as she wishes.
It’s high time that people interested in animal welfare and animal rights take support from PETA and
consider starting a new animal rights group. One where reason, and moral ideas take precedence over
stupid publicity stunts and woo.
that’s not how the placebo effect works; that’s not how emotions work; and that’s not how being a victim works, either.
Conclusion: atterdag has the medical and psychological knowledge of the average pet rock.
or your average PETA representative?
Sigh… they’re REALLY getting desperate.
Look, if you are vegetarian or vegan because you have moral qualms about eating animal flesh, that’s fine. I may not agree with you, but we can come to different moral conclusions and act upon them so long as we don’t hurt one another. Besides, I admit that I could be entirely wrong.
However, when you make up bullshit to support your beliefs, you’re really not helping convince me of the validity of your claims.
Shadow @110
you mean something like this?
@starcatherus #111
I’ve had a relationship with PETA that is very similar to what you describe. Unlike you, I was fortunate in that my family was supportive when I decided to become vegetarian, and later vegan. But a good part of the impetus for my doing so was seeing the exposés of what was (and is) going on in factory farms, and it was PETA who was able to get that footage and put it out there for people to see. I fully supported them, donated when I could, and often defended them in heated conversations. They were an easy target for hatred because they were well-known and didn’t shy away from expressing what people saw as extremist ideals.
Sadly, they’re not defensible anymore. They’ve left the real cause of animal welfare by the wayside for the sake of maintaining that extremist reputation, it seems. I came to veganism by doing my best to be rational and morally consistent, two things which PETA has demonstrated it is not interested in, this autism-linked-with-dairy nonsense only being the latest example.
That said, even if they are unfortunately still the most well-known animal welfare org, they are far from being the only one. I haven’t donated to PETA for about a decade. Instead, when I get the chance, I donate to Compassion over Killing. And there are other organizations like them. There are some smaller more local ones where I live and probably wherever you are too.
Oh, and to all those saying they couldn’t live without pizza, I agree, I couldn’t either. However, I’ve found that one need not use dairy in order to have perfectly delicious pizza. I’d highly suggest you try some real quality vegan pizzas even if you have no interest in giving up dairy. You might be surprised.
Turns out, even gluten sensitivity is probably not real. Or, at least not actually about gluten at all.
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/05/gluten_sensitivity_may_not_exist.html
atterdag
I’m not an MD, and happy to be corrected, but immune reactions can usually be seen in the blood. That’s why the question whether I have just a malfunctioning thyroid or Hashimoto’s disease (an auto-immune disease where your immune system eats up your thyroid) was determined by checking my blood for certain anti-bodies. An immune-reaction that cannot be seen in the immune system is probably not real.
+++
BTW, from the point of effectiveness Peta might well do vegans a disservice. Inocculation effect: If you’ve been presented with bullshit arguments against something you will be less likely to believe non-bullshit arguments.
/delurk:
@70 Thomathy, Do Not Upset Me Ahead of World Pride
“innate immune response” is an actual term in immunobiology.
Unsurprisingly it’s used to describe the response of the innate part of the immune system, which includes for example the complement system, Toll-like receptors and acute phase proteins.
I have absolutely no idea how “dairy/gluten” is supposed to trigger an innate immune response (and only an innate immune response, since atterdag isn’t mentioning the adaptive part). Maybe atterdag can explain how this is supposed to work?
@118 Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-
I’m not an MD either, but of course you are right. However the detection of antibodies indicates a response of the adaptive part of the immune system and even though I’m pretty sure atterdag doesn’t know what xe is talking about, xe only mentions an innate immune response. Which could be even more easily detected, because CRP (c-reactive protein), an acute phase protein, is routinely used as a marker for inflamation and would clearly show an innate immune response.
Again, I have no idead how dairy products or gluten could trigger an innate immune response and even less of an idea how they could trigger an innate immune response, but no adaptive immune response.
Are you aware of multiple confounding variables? It takes an awful lot of effort to remove gluten from your diet. That adds in a whole host of other behavioral changes – closer attention paid to the food you eat, for most people a complete change to specific recipes, closer attention paid to the child, etc. How many of those people saying “everything got better” switched from a diet full of empty carbs to one with a lot of fruits and vegetables? How much change happens simply with better vitamin and caloric intake? How many of them started noticing and fixing other environmental triggers their children had once they started monitoring them more closely? Were these kids also in therapy for their ASD? How much of this might be correlated with changes due to therapy? How much might be change simply because of growth, as behaviors can wax and wane with hormonal changes? How many of them are experiencing the placebo effect, which you need to look up because you so badly misunderstand it? And how many are just wishful thinking of parents thinking their child *might* be doing better without gluten?
Really? Because the Celiac Support Association says that there are in fact six antibody tests for gluten.
@shadow #110
I shit you not…
carlie
Really? Because the Celiac Support Association says that there are in fact six antibody tests for gluten.
By now this sounds like “I have this disease and I’m completely convinced, no matter what the doctors say and that there is no evidence whatsoever.”
There is celiac disease (CD) and non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS). CD and NCGS are not the same thing; related, but not the same. Tests are available for CD. If CD has been ruled out, then the only option left for NCGS patients is an elimination diet. The following article does a good job of explaining gluten issues:
http://drhyman.com/blog/2011/03/17/gluten-what-you-dont-know-might-kill-you/
Regarding the innate immune system, see the following:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1954879/
The following is another interesting study on gliadin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16635908
@117 – There are plenty of contradictory studies and plenty of debate. However, to point to a study that fails to find a connection and declare it as proof that something does not exist is bad logic.
also from drhyman.com: “Why Diseases Don’t Exist and What Really Makes You Sick!” in which we learn that gluten can also cause depression, that doctors don’t ever care about what causes illnesses, and that standard medicine thinks everything is caused by “microbes” which you always fight with antibiotics.
such science, so source, wow.
@atterdag #123
Worst Western Blot of all times
And yes, there are paper claiming that gliadin induces an innate-like IL-15 response, however the exact mechanism and whether IL-15 overexpression plays a role in the developement of celiac disease remains unclear. Not to forget, that this only applys to celiac disease. Which can be diagnosed, as carlie has already described. And celiac disease is primarily caused by a response of the adaptive immune system (see HLA mutations). And celiac disease is not a food allergy. Neither is “non-celiac gluten sensitivity”, because allergies can be detected. And allergies are caused by the adaptive immune system, not the innate immune system. And how exactly is this all linked to autism again?
Terrible summary. Say rather “there are studies that fail to confirm a dairy/wheat issue with ASD, and none that confirm it, therefore, we have no reason to believe the claim that such a problem exists.”
Continuing from above, it is not the assumption that is bad, but rather your grasp of what that assumption actually is.
But they weren’t ignored. You’ve pointed to studies examining the hypothesis – which hardly seems like ignoring the hypothesis to me – but they came up empty. All you are doing is buying into the anecdotal nature of this claim and declaring that it must be true, in complete defiance of good methodology. Maybe next you’d like to buy into the anecdotal evidence in support of the purported immunisation-autism link?
All you are saying here is that the market of ‘gluten avoiding’ consumers is smaller (and thus has less buying power) than the market of the ‘gluten indifferent’. So what? It is still a population of shoppers with wallets to be bilked, it is still a market driven by money, even if it is relatively niche.
Almost any pizza contains cheese, which is disgusting, and tomatoes, which are also disgusting. I enjoy my pizza-free life, thankyouverymuch. :-)
I do, however, drink at least half a liter of milk every day, I eat plenty of butter, and I fit the criteria carlie posted (to varying degrees). The fun thing is that nothing happens when I don’t get to drink milk (say, I spend two weeks in China), and nothing happens when I come back and immediately drink lots of milk again. Similarly, I used to eat lots of bread, but when I drastically cut down on that because I moved to a place where good bread is hard to find, nothing changed, except that the dry skin on my elbows (said to be a symptom of wheat allergy) got better.
The study didn’t fail to find a connection. It found that there is no connection. That’s not the same thing. It should be obvious once you read the article…
Heathen! BURN HIM!
While it is possible to make pizza without tomato sauce and cheese…
I agree.
As a vegan I absolutely hate PETA. They have created the worst strawman for veganism and people are very quick to use the stupidity of PETA to paint all animal rights with the same brush.
@atterdag, have you actually read the papers you are posting? Or are these links you have found on a forum or other website? As others have pointed out, these are not particularly good and your first link is absolutely ludicrous. To have included a link to drhyman.com seems to make it clear you are not equiped to evaluate the evidence. That, combined with some pretty weak sauce papers makes it pretty clear you are just looking for anything to support your beliefs, it does not matter what it is.
I stopped taking anything said by PETA seriously a long long time ago. I in fact stopped giving to United Way because of tthem.
It addition, this paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1954879/
is just a pilot study with a rather poor Western Blot.
The last link is behind a pay wall so I cannot say much about it.
That is one ugly Western blot.
Thank you for finally, kicking and screaming, providing something that potentially answers to the label of “citation.” I’ll be interested to see what those more familiar with medical research have to say about the quality of those articles, though.
It is not necessary to prove that a thing does not exist. It must be proven to exist. This is the logic equivalent of “now I know my ABC’s…”
Worse than that is the fact that they are exactly as horrible as they appear to be. You wish that they were a strawman!
Does that still fit the definition of “pizza”?
*also: remebers what NOT to cook should DDMFM some day come to visit*
NCGS patients have tested negative for allergies, yet they still have inflammation. Nobody fully understands gluten sensitivities. Approximately 1% of the population has CD. Approximately 6% has NCGS. I would guess that those with NCGS and dairy sensitivities and a much smaller percentage. 68% of those with ASD report improvement with a gluten/dairy free diet. This is statistically significant. Eliminating gluten from the diet isn’t a big inconvenience. Eliminating dairy from the diet is a bigger inconvenience. Eliminating both gluten and dairy from the diet is a huge inconvenience, especially with family members resisting. Therefore, no one is going to have a gluten/dairy free diet without significant benefits. The only options available for NCGS and dairy sensitive patients is an elimination diet. I causes no harm, and at worst is an inconvenience, but has the potential to eliminate inflammation and suffering. However, the consensus here is that the problem does not exist because it has not been proven and it isn’t fully understood; therefore, take no action and let these patients suffer. Nice.
Overly Emotional Placebo Victims is the name of my new REO Speedwagon tribute band.
As self-reporting, only in your dreams. Show us the link showing the statistics, so they can be examined for rigor. Your word alone will never be good enough, since your word has been shown to be of dubious quality.
Which has nothing to do whatever with autism, and you should know that. Either show us the smoking gun links, or shut the fuck up as a True Believer™ should when the word is questioned, they can’t/won’t present the real evidence to back up their claims.
You are just repeating the assumption you made earlier, an assumption others already explained was incorrect. Are you actually reading what people write?
On top of that, you just wrote a post that completely ignores what everyone has said and just keeps moving on. It is almost unbelievable. Every time you have posted something people have found problems with it, and rather than address those you just keep chugging along by posting something new. Something new and dubious. Shouldn’t these issues give you some pause over your understanding of this topic and the available evidence? Just look at your post at #123. Rather than address your complete misunderstanding of response bias and the placebo effect, you just moved on to another topic like no one had replied to you.
Indeed. With extra penguins.
With lots of extra penguins.
(For those who don’t get the joke: (1) Congratulations on being sane? How do you function? (2) I’m not advocating combusing any penguins. For one thing, she’s disagree. Never good, that. And she’d also cut off my — or whatever’s left of me — supply of cheese…)
Now, all atterdag has to do, is to prove that every autistic child has one of those antibodies, proving the linkage, so cite that paper. We are waiting for the real evidence Atterdag, not your opinion of what is “evidence”.
I know people who legitimately can’t have gluten. They can be felled for a day or more if there is a trace of flour in a gravy mix. Gluten can be found in ice cream, in yogurt, in bullion cubes, in processed meats, in herbal tea, in some lipsticks. Eliminating gluten doesn’t mean “don’t eat bread or pasta”. If you think eliminating gluten from one’s diet is “easy”, then you haven’t eliminated gluten from your diet
solipschism wrote:
I’m sure there are some good ones out there. But to give up both the bread crust (which admittedly is often the weakest point of many otherwise good pizzas), and the cheese seems a bit much. There are too many pizzas out there that taste like they were made by taking Wonderbread smeared with a thin film of ketchup and other toppings and finished by applying tasteless white rubber to the top.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls wrote:
Not necessarily all of them, but he does have to prove that a greater percentage of autistic children have then than the general population.
Or maybe just stop sciency talking about his undetectable, but totes real guys, ailment, “NCGS”. Or do some blind testing to make sure the effect actually exists even if the people with NCGS don’t know if they’re consuming gluten or not. Or at least disprove carlie’s incredibly reasonable hypothesis.
I have a friend who has allergic responses to gluten, dairy and fructose.
Unsurprisingly, she’s also intolerant of people who complain of undiagnosed food intolerances, and make unjustifiable claims about the range of vague symptoms that are “caused” by various foods.
For her sake, I’m glad she’s not seeing Atterdag’s opinions.
True, but the main point is that xe needs more than what has been linked to, to date, to show that connection, and I put forward the gold standard that should be met for xis idea to be accepted as scientific, as hard data, rather than self-reporting, is where his “evidence” needs to gravitate toward. Also xe need to understand, if xe can’t/won’t show that evidence, maybe xis claims aren’t supported, and xe should back off the claims.
does not compute.
pesto pizza.
seriously, I’ve had them on several occasions. Yummy pizza, no cheese, no tomatoes.
of course, at this point imo, it’s only loosely called “pizza”.
http://veganyackattack.com/2013/06/26/mediterranean-pesto-pizza/
cheese and tomatoes optional.
Vegan pesto is certainly possible, but most pesto has cheese in it.
I make and freeze various pestos every year.
Based on experience, the thawing and using is better if I don’t freeze the cheese, but, rather, add it at time of use.
Sometimes I forget.
It doesn’t seem to matter.
Did someone call for Penguins?
@Suido #146
Damn. What on Earth does she live off? That pretty much leaves her beans and pulses, doesn’t it?
@Ichthyic #149
Love pesto! I have had pesto on pizza, and it’s lovely. However, I also love mozzarella. And tomatoes.
Interestingly, I was just reading this: http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/05/gluten_sensitivity_may_not_exist.html
On the subject of people who claim gluten sensitivity when they cut out bread and pasta.
Basically, a scientist who had put together a strong study in 2011 which appeared to prove non-celiac gluten sensitivity was real (Double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled) re-did the same study with a stricter criteria, and … debunked his study. “In contrast to our first study… we could find absolutely no specific response to gluten.”
At least one of the scientists on the study suspects that a reduction in fermentable, poorly absorbed short-chain carbohydrates, which would be a result of even a half-assed ‘gluten-free diet’ might be an explanation. But they need a lot more science.
Good science on the subject is, of course, desperately scarce. Self-reporting abounds. http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/05/are_you_really_gluten-sensitive.html — another small trial, only 37 subjects, all self-diagnosed with gluten sensitivity.
Which is really interesting to me.
It actually reminds me immensely of Scott and Scurvy–http://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm.
An example of seeing an effect and misunderstanding the mechanism, and so putting you in a position to do yourself serious harm by extrapolating the wrong lesson from the effect you see.
@143 – What you fail to understand is there are no antibody tests for NCGS. I am one of them; every single antibody test is negative, yet the inflammation is still there, and it 100% goes away when I stay away from gluten/dairy. Yes, the 68% of ASD that do better on gluten/dairy free are self reporting, but the 6% of the population that are NCGS are self reporting too. The 6% are self reporting because there are no antibody tests. Diet does not cause ASD, but the interesting question is why 68% for the ASD population and 6% for the general population?
Good on Howard @156.
that’s not even true. It’s parent reporting. And parents of ASD individuals, are unfortunately too often classifying “less annoying” as an improvement regardless of wellbeing of child. Self-reporting would be if ASD individuals themselves reported improvement in their own wellbeing.
And the other study talking about autism & gluten (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15526989?dopt=AbstractPlus) is actually a study about immune responses (presence of antibodies), so therefore not this mysterious NCGS which supposedly there aren’t antibody tests for.
Where is the backing with antibodies, not self-reporting by parents, or PLACEBO BY MUNCHAUSEN? Until we see real scientific data that satisfies real scientists, your alt-med claims are dismissed as controlless alt-med. Why do you believe in alt-med anyway?
@160 Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
As far as I understand atterdag’s reasoning there are no gluten-specific antibodies because “The problem with dairy/gluten is that for many people it produces an innate immune response”, by which xe obviously means an exclusively innate immune response. This of course ignores that by definition all four types of hypersenstivity are “malfunctions” of the adaptive immune system (even though not all involve a humoral response). atterdag also ignores that the differential diagnosis for an inflamation of the gastrointestinal tract is not automatically “gluten did it”. Of course everyone is free to eliminate dairy or gluten from their diet if they feel better without it. But that doesn’t automatically proof the existance of a gluten sensitivity which is independent of celiac disease or allergy.
atterdag, until and unless I see good research backing that 68% I’m not even remotely interested in it; I’m not holding my breath waiting for the research, either. Besides, eliminating gluten and dairy from younger son’s diet would eliminate about seventy-five percent of what he’s willing to eat.
Of course, at the moment his most disruptive behavior is coming into my room and shouting “MORNING, MOM!” loudly before I’ve had coffee. I am pretty sure this has nothing to do with milk or bread.
It just sort of fascinates me, the idea that my children’s personality traits, and mine, are somehow pathological responses to something or other. What the something or other is changes constantly; today it’s gluten, tomorrow it’s – oh, let’s say it’s apples, pears and stone fruits, just to eliminate something else younger son eats. It is disturbing to be perceived as a sort of crank-battleground.
Here is another one on NCGS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4017515/
Here is another one on gluten and autism:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0066155