It’s not encouraging or inspiring of confidence.
The mission of the Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.
The Center for Inquiry, including its CEO, is dedicated to advancing the status of women and promoting women’s issues, and this was the motivation for its sponsorship of the two Women in Secularism conferences. The CFI Board wishes to express its unhappiness with the controversy surrounding the recent Women in Secularism Conference 2.
CFI believes in respectful debate and dialogue. We appreciate the many insights and varied opinions communicated to us. Going forward, we will endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement to enhance our common values and strengthen our solidarity as we struggle together for full equality and respect for women around the world.
“The CFI Board wishes to express its unhappiness with the controversy surrounding the recent Women in Secularism Conference 2.” Jebus. Can you get any more waffly? What caused the controversy, gang?
Rebecca Watson isn’t very happy, either.
Weasel words. Fuck ’em
In summary: “We’re sorry that some people were offended.”
I wish to express my unhappiness with the CFI Board for being unhappy that there’s a controversy and not being unhappy with the fact that the controversy is about their CEO scolding women a a conference that was expressly for women.
Not even “we’re sorry”… “we’re unhappy”?!?! I guess the CFI board is the real victim in all of this?
Secular, sceptical, atheist ladies, have you put on weight recently? That’s because CFI just chucked you under a bus. Buses are heavy.
Louis
It’s way more vague than that. It’s more like “We’re sorry for something that may or may not have caused offense to some people that may or may not exist and are located at places.”
I wish to express my unhappiness with a number of controversies.
Thank you.
That receding sussuration of clinks and rustles they’re hearing right now? That’s money stampeding from their coffers.
Something happened, they won’t say what. But it made them feel REAL sad and they wish it would just go away.
That’s what I got from that.
This reads like a parody of a weasle-y nonpology. Who the fuck wrote this? Guess another letter to CFI is off in the mail today. I’m going to be off the books.
Mistakes were made!
The ending is a particularly weak point in a message apparently made up entirely of weak points. They say they will “…endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement to enhance our common values and strengthen our solidarity as we struggle together for full equality and respect for women around the world.” But significant elements of the secular movement are opposed to full equality and respect for women around the world. So you can’t do both, guys. Pick one.
I counted 126 words. To bad they didn’t actually say anything.
That last sentence sounds like something from one of those automatic mission-statement generators.
“this was the motivation for its sponsorship of the two Women in Secularism conferences. ” Was the motivation? This doesn’t sound promising for a 3rd one. This whole post is a great example of how language can be used to erase all actors and responsibility for something that happened. Look at the subjects in the sentences. The only reference to actual actors are the Board and the atheist movement as a whole (or just CFI, unclear) -“we”.
…wtf, is that _the entire statement_???!!! I thought it was an excerpt, but no… that is the sum of what they have to say. They are unhappy with the controversy.
Welp, I have just written off CFI entirely. Enjoy having to bend to the whims of the Slymepit, since they’ll be the only audience you’ll have left, you fuckers.
I feel sorry for the person who was told to write this.
I don’t even…
I wasn’t even there and I’m practically shaking with rage right now.
Dissing the reason for a meeting is “respectful debate and dialog”? I don’t think so Tim.
http://gifrific.com/jennifer-lawrence-sarcastic-ok-thumbs-up/
Gregory@4:
I disagree.
CFI did not acknowledge the nature of the problem. They show no understanding of the anger many people have. Indeed, they did not even offer an apology to everyone angry at Ron. Issuing the above statement was definitely one of the worst possible responses.
But hey, even if they lost the support of many feminists, they can take mantle of Clubhouse #2 for the Slymepit.
Okay, I think I just grokked how libertarianism and this “free speech” fetish work together. Libertarians _say_ they want freedom for everyone, but in practice their policies give freedom to people who have money and power, and everyone else gets screwed over. Likewise, the Freeze Peach brigade _say_ they want everyone to be heard, but in practice they want the people with the loudest voices, the people with the most stamina, and _the people who are talking already_ to be heard – and everyone else gets drowned out or silenced.
And so we get Lindsay seizing the stage to lecture everyone on the utter horror of ever suggesting that anyone should ever say “shut up and listen” – when his speech was “Shut up and listen to me”.
CFI are fine with that. CFI can wither on the vine now.
Dear CFI:
Fuck off.
Kindest regards,
Kevin
Duh. It was those pesky controversialist bloggers trying to drum up blog hits. If only you lot would just shut up and accept condescending lectures from the “leaders” of the movement, everything would be fine!
Typical corporate bullshit. They obviously don’t give a fuck, so they can now go searching for the fucks I don’t give about them.
@Tony!, #22: Clubhouse #3; Michael Nugent seems to be hosting clubhouse #2 for the time being…
If you can’t even tell from the statement what they’re making a statement about, it’s a lousy statement.
It’s puzzling — they have to have known what the reaction would be to such a vapid collection of words.
Maybe the board agreed on so little that what they could all say with one voice became virtually content-less.
What a non-statement.
I think it’s really nice of CFI to do fundraising for American Atheists like this.
Maybe it’s a lead-in to a name change. They can be the Committee for Free Inquiry About Bigfoot And Crop Circles But God Help You If You Question The Socioeconomic Status Quo, Bitches.
CFIBACCBGHYIYQTSSQB?
Damn! The only thing missing from that CFI announcement are the words “paradigm” and “synergy” for it to be perfect corp non-speak.
*snicker*
Well that was a minute and a half I’ll never get back. That statement said nothing, and it said so with blandness, boredom and more than a slight air of superiority.
@PZ Myers:
Maybe American Atheists needs to host the next WiS, cause you can be damned sure CFI isn’t.
And dear god but some are frustrating. I mentioned this to an atheist friend of mine, directed him to all the relevant blog posts (with links!) Reaction? I don’t want to read all that, I don’t see anything wrong with what Lindsay said, after all its humanist, isn’t it?
Me, I’m too emotionally involved to debate this right now, I’m stepping out of the discussion.
Him, but why are you offended?
Did I not just say I’m no longer going to discuss this with you? /rage
doublereed @18:
This is so badly written that it’s highly likely it was written by the person whose brilliant idea it was. I feel sorry for all the people who would never have written it who have had to see this statement go out under the name of the organization they’ve put so much into.
They just refuse to eat that humble pie, don’t they…
@Gen:
It’s basically “we are aware there’s a controversy” in more words than needed.
They suffer from the same Don’t Question Your Leaders delusion that the Slymepit does.
“Respectful dialogue” would actually address and respond to what other people say; this statement doesn’t do either. CFI’s words and actions belie their beliefs.
I also suspect that there was no malice intended in their disabling of comments. It was because any comment might have added a tiny bit of substance to it, marring the perfect vacuity of the post.
It’s a homeopathic statement. So little content as to be nonexistent, diluted among so many words.
You know what else really bothers me about this non-response? There are some truly stellar people working at CFI, people who actually believe social justice and equality are under the purview of skeptical thought, and CFI just told them to shut up or take a hike out behind the chemical sheds.
I have sent the CFI an email:
Hi,
The following statement has appeared on your website, dated 17th June.
“The mission of the Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.
The Center for Inquiry, including its CEO, is dedicated to advancing the status of women and promoting women’s issues, and this was the motivation for its sponsorship of the two Women in Secularism conferences. The CFI Board wishes to express its unhappiness with the controversy surrounding the recent Women in Secularism Conference 2.
CFI believes in respectful debate and dialogue. We appreciate the many insights and varied opinions communicated to us. Going forward, we will endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement to enhance our common values and strengthen our solidarity as we struggle together for full equality and respect for women around the world.”
Can you confirm that this in fact a genuine statement by the CFI ? The reason I ask for clarification is that it is so anodyne, so lacking in substance and so misses the point that it is hard to believe it can have been written by someone acting on behalf the CFI, and with the interests of the CFI in mind.
Regards,
Matt Penfold
LOL
This doesn’t even qualify as a not-pology. My heart aches for people like Hensley who’ve done such excellent work for an org that just basically said “Bitches: Fuck ’em”.
Yeah, they just threw Melody Hensley and Paul Fidalgo under a very large bus.
I’ve only been around these parts for a year, and I feel totally sucker-punched by this tone-deaf parody of a statement. Ironically, attending WiS2 was the first real contact I’ve had with CFI, and, with one obvious exception, I was really impressed with the CFI staff I met there. It seemed to me that CFI were closest of all the secular organizations to carrying out the missions that I most care about, so I only reluctantly decided not to contribute to them. I was hoping that the board would weigh in constructively about their CEO’s utterly unprofessional behavior and that I could go back to supporting people like Melody, Debbie, Simon, Paul, etc. Instead, my money will go to American Atheists and the Secular Student Alliance.
This is a clear sign that we need new institutions.
Instead of giving to AA consider Planned Parenthood
“A thing happened, and we feel obligated to comment on that thing, but we have nothing to say about that thing. Rest assured, however, that we believe in having respectful dialog about things that happen, so thank you everyone who commented on this thing.
That is all. Have a nice day. More dollars please.”
DINGDINGDING!
We have a winner people!
@ # 42
Tom Foss
If someone had cobbled that statement together yesterday as a _joke_ about how vacuous the statement was going to be, nobody would have believed it.
I got the same vibe. I may well be reading too much into that, but on top of that non-statement, I’m not so sure anymore.
A Hermit,
Let’s start a REAL controversy.
My #6 was objectively funnier.
;-)
Louis
Well, they can’t have a third, otherwise all those valuable MRAs might stop donating to them! Moneymoneymoneymoneymoney.
It sounds like it was written by a focus group. Like they just decided “this is the best possible time to issue a statement that basically just regurgitates our Mission Statement and offers up feel good bafflegab instead of addressing anything specific or relevant to the issues at hand”. What is it with the leadership of atheist organizations? Fucking embarrassing.
I’m fairly certain that the lack of specifics, the fact that you cannot tell what the controversy they are talking about actually is, is an attempt to save face. They want to sweep everything into the memory hole. They want to say BOTH SIDES were wrong without actually saying it and thus provoking outrage. They don’t want to bring up specifics because they don’t do so without drawing attention to things that they would rather just sweep under the rug and have people ignore. Actively dealing with the complaints, either by refuting them or lukewarmly accepting them, still brings attention to the complains and they can’t do that. They can’t have more people becoming aware of the issue. So everything is hush-hush with a non-specific notpology so Lindsay can continue to do his thing and the organization can pretend nothing ever happened.
Yeah, fuck CFI.
Tonetrolling. More shameless display of privilege. The good old tactic of using measures of respectability to … silence debate.
If they cannot manage “full equality and respect” for women in their own organization, how are they going to manage it for “women around the world”?
Sounds like a schism is in order.
It must feel really nice for all those who sent thoroughly thought out emails and letters to CFI, that the CFI board thinks they would be stupid enough to fall for this insult. I wasn’t expecting much after the last few years, but this is just a continuation of Lindsay’s rant.
It’s kinda odd not to explain why they are unhappy with the controversy around WiS.
This is CFI right? There’s controversy around pretty much anything they do in (american) culture, but suddenly now they don’t like controversy and most mystifyingly… they can’t even be bothered to say why?
Someone should start a clock on their site/blog, counting the days that Ron still hasn’t stepped back and CFI has issued an actual apology. Also, inquiring minds want to know, what they are going to do to prevent this kind of fuck-up from happening again?
Why are we are also focusing on “common values” and “solidarity” when it is clear that the movement contains people opposed to “full equality and respect”? As in, “full equality and respect” is NOT a “common value”. As in, “full equality and respect” will NOT be a necessary consequence of women focusing on gaining solidarity with teh menz of the atheist movement. Which is to say that we don’t need to “enhance our common values” or gain “solidarity” first and fight for equality second: We need to fucking convince people that equality is a common value and then work for solidarity and equality and respect from there. But that doesn’t fit into their whitewashed, face-saving narrative.
We at CFI have an ongoing unhappiness over-quota situation, possibly caused by a happiness shortfall. We are confident that, going forward, an input of generic struggling-and-equality clichées will eventually lead to a raise in happiness quotients, and a consequent relative drop in the unhappiness index.
Yours, in a state of ongoing sinceritiness
…
These institutions and organizations that want to waffle on cultural wedge issues never learn do they?
Take the BSA for example. They now allow gay youth, but not gay adults. Do they think that placates the religious haters? Do they think the gay community they are reaching out to appreciates them reinforcing the lie that gay adults are a danger to kids? No. They are alienating both groups.
Does this organization think there is a middle ground between the group that thinks women should be treated civilly and respectfully and the group that does not? There isn’t. The MRAs will hate any attempt to be welcoming to women. And women? We’ve been watching this debate and aren’t impressed by people who can’t figure out who the good guys and bad guys are.
When you are dealing with eliminationists who do not like the existence of the other (gays, feminists, whatever), there is never a compromise position. Compromising is always ceding ground to the eliminationists, who will never be satisfied until the thing they dislike is eliminated. All you’ve done is fooled yourself into thinking you haven’t picked the side of the eliminationists.
It’s actually even a worse statement than it first appears. The CFI Board is unhappy with the “controversy” surrounding WiS2. The implication is that all they’re unhappy about is that people were ticked off at Lindsay’s speech and wrote publicly about it and contacted the board to complain about it, but that they’re OK with what Lindsay said. I hope they have something else to say or PZ’s right and people’s feet and dollars will head to American Atheists.
Dissing the reason for a meeting is “respectful debate and dialog”? I don’t think so Tim.
Agreed. And let me add, a speech to a silent audience is not a dialog.
Why, those damn people who objected to his hectoring lecturing, of course.
Count me in on Watson’s boycott (a real, non-fictional one this time, albeit she isn’t demanding that one and all join her).
I think that it would be a tragedy if this board decision killed the WIS series, though. I would strongly support another organization continuing the annual tradition—under another title if necessary.
I think
1) this is an extremely well written letter
2) that someone invested significant time in writing this response, probably even more than one person
2) it says exactly what they wanted it to say
3) it sends a very clear message
I’m not justifying the content or it’s path but to believe that this was written in minutes after a board meeting is folly. My guess is the board has been informally chatting and this note has been written and revised since this incident happened.
dutchdelight #60
Ah well, see, they’re happy to be the Center For Inquiry. They’re not happy at all to be the Center OF Inquiry.
*quickly checks ticket for place in seething mass queue, realizes it is nowhere near close enough*
I can’t even imagine how demoralized Melody must be right about now.
I could understand this if it was the first statement they issued the day after the conference, before they knew anything. But now? After weeks of waiting, during which time they could have done a lot of research and opinion-making? Not even. Before I read this, I wouldn’t have believed there was something more weasely than “I’m sorry if you were offended”, but there is. It’s “we’re unhappy about this controversy”.
If by “well written” you mean grammatically correct, sure. But it’s still nothing but noncommittal fluff, and due to the lack of substance “well written” is not necessarily accurate.
Agreed. The evasiveness and the feel good tripe were intricate in their simplicity. Expertly performed.
“The CFI Board wishes to express its unhappiness with the controversy surrounding the recent Women in Secularism Conference 2.” amazes me, from an engineering perspective.. It a work of art; a statement that occupies every possible interpretation in perfect quantum superposition. A similar particle at least has the grace to collapse into a single state upon observation, whereas this sentence just gets more and more formless and meaningless the more I look at it…
I see that all the comments are condemning the CFI statement. I think that it is appropriate to the situation, and the best thing they could do. I think I speak for a lot of atheists/skeptics who don’t agree with either side of the current atheist furious infighting, and wish to get on with dealing with the outside world on these issues instead of continuing a lot of infighting. Hooray for CFI! Here is the letter I sent:
Dear CFI Board,
I am a CFI member concerned about all of the criticism directed at CFI’s CEO, Dr. Lindsay because of his welcoming comments at the recent Women in Secularism conference. I must say that the criticism is way out of line compared to the offense. I can hardly imagine comments less offensive, less controversial than to say that we shouldn’t tell each other to shut up, rather, we should emphasize listening.
But not only are the howls of protest way over the top, they are being accompanied by demonization. A man who has stood up for women’s rights in real world situations, including the halls of government, is being criticized as either a complete idiot or in league with the forces that wish to oppress women. The concluding sentences, the crux of Lindsay’s talk, which includes a reaffirmation of CFI’s commitment to women achieving “complete social and civil equality and equal economic and political opportunity” are completely disregarded.
However, I think we have to recognize and deal with the reality that there are some very sensitive people out there with regard to women’s issues. Many of them have been oppressed and harassed, and unfortunately but understandably get extremely angry when there is any disagreement even with the particulars of their world view. They do not admit the possibility that other reasonable points of view might be valid. Thus they have blogs in which care is taken to boot out any dissenting voices as not merely wrong, but evil. Everyone who disagrees even on the particulars or the tactics is lumped in with those that really do not want the complete liberation of women. This, of course, stifles any kind of free and open discussion in their fora, but it satisfies their need to have a place where their ideas can be constantly reinforced and it gives them a sense of community.
Ron Lindsay, admittedly, should have been more aware of the sensitivities involved before speaking. The best thing a male speaker can do at such a conference is say as little as possible and keep out of the way. However, I’m sure he’s learned his lesson on that by now! There really was no excuse for the tone of his blog entry attacking Rebecca Watson, but he apologized for that. I hope that CFI will continue to support Dr. Lindsay, and support the free expression of ideas. I look forward to calm, reasoned discussion on this topic in future editions of “Free Inquiry”, in the spirit of the name of the magazine.
Philo
philosophia
And
Pick one and stick with it, please.
@philo
No you don’t know any fence sitters stop bsing
@71…”But it’s still nothing but noncommittal fluff, and due to the lack of substance “well written” is not necessarily accurate.”
I don’t think it’s non committal fluff or inaccurate at all. I think they said very directly that they heard everyone and they are responding by not doing anything in a notably visible way other than this statement. That speaks volumes very loudly.
I can hardly imagine comments less informed, less clued in than to say that “we shouldn’t tell each other to shut up, rather, we should emphasize listening” is all ron lindsay did.
Oh, fuck off! That is a steaming-hot pile of dishonest garbage.
Jezisfuckinzombiechrist, this both sides bullshit… Gah! Fuck this “movement.”
An evasion if ever I read one. *sigh*
I really didn’t expect Lindsay to get fired but they didn’t even acknowledge that he was the reason for the controversy.
It should be possible for the membership to recall this board. I’m having trouble finding CFI’s bylaws, however. I hope such a move might get some traction, as it’s a shame to kill the organization, or abandon it to the status-quo-loving portion of its membership by just leaving.
For fuck’s fucking sake.
1. Context! He gave this lecture of his in lieu of welcoming women at a women’s conference!
2. It’s based on a fucking strawman! “Shut up and listen” ALREADY EMPHASIZES LISTENING. Tut-tutting the “shut up” part of it is just supporting the status quo: Where straight white males get a disproportionate amount of the speaking time on issues that pertain to non-straight people, non-white people, and non-male people. Where straight white males talk to other straight white males about issues relevant to disenfranchised minorities in an abstract, detached, academic fashion and rarely ever letting those disenfranchised minorities get a word in edgewise. They don’t give them the floor even when the subject matter is something relevant to their own fucking lives and experiences. Ron Lindsay opposes the very idea of “shut up and listen” because either he doesn’t understand that “shut up” isn’t supposed to be a life sentence or because he thinks that straight white males should never shut up, ever, because FREEDOM.
Yeah, those women and their irrational, emotional sensitivity, amirite?
Fuck off. Fuck right off. You are no fucking moderate by any stretch of the imagination. I’m so fucking glad that the vast majority of your letter was spent condescending and dismissing the pro-women side, though, and never once daring to even pretend to be interested in condemning BOTH SIDES like the real brain-addled, self-righteous fencesitters do. Yeah, you totally haven’t chosen a
“side”. Sure.
Shorter perplexed and philosophia : Pat us on the head now, Dr. Lindsay! We’re obedient! We don’t question! We don’t think!
Shorter philosophia: “bitches be hysterical and emotional and shit”.
Do I have that about right?
“Yeah, you totally haven’t chosen a “side”. Sure.”
LOL totally. I have a hard time believing they actually believe anyone will fall for their obvious defense of bigots and harassment and obvious disdain for social justice. I tend to think they are slymepitters who, post brainless, illogical drivel like perplexed and philosphia have done just to get flamed and banned. You know, for the slymepit Bigot merit badge.
That’s it? That is the entirety of what they wrote? They received piles of letters that were pages long and that’s what they came up with?
On the one hand, I know that sitting down and writing that letter was a waste of time when I wrote it. On the other hand, it still sucks.
Also, I’m going to express my rather painful humor over the fact that people are absolutely freaking out about the phrase “shut up and listen” and yet do not display a similar level of outrage when women in their movement get threatened with rape and have their heads photoshopped onto pornographic images. “Oh, of course we condemn that!” they (sometimes) cry, but do they? Did Lindsay take the time at a Women In Secularism opening speech to talk about the fact that women have been fiercely harassed over the last few years, some so much so that they have either severely curtailed their involvement or have left altogether? No. To him, the big issue was that these women who were being harassed might use the phrase “shut up” rather than “please deign to listen to me for a moment even though my words have no particular value and certainly can’t inform you of anything, as your skepticism clearly gives you complete understanding of minority experiences despite the fact that you aren’t a minority. Oh, and I completely am not implying that you need to be asked to listen; no, clearly you’re already doing that and maybe we can just forget everything I just said.”
Yes, clearly the first phrasing was vastly inferior to the second phrasing.
I’m actually kindof leaning to agree with perplexed’s above comment. I hope they do indeed have a followup statement planned. I do wonder if they read all the letters? I even sent a real live, paper, snail-mail one. Saying that I was disappointed would be a huge understatement.
It’d be nice to think that perplexed and yazikus are right, but I’m not holding my breath…
Philosophistrya
You can hardly imagine context, either, it appears.
Those words are simply bread buns on a shit sandwich. No one has a problem with such a sentiment. They only masque Lindsay’s criticism in the language of an ‘ally’ so as to deflect valid criticism of the other parts of his speech which were harmful. And you’re playing right into his narrative and providing him cover. Fuck off.
Ugh, philosophistrya again:
No, that’s rank bullshit and it shows you have the same mindset as some of the slymers. The best thing for a male speaker to do is to at least minimally educate themselves before speaking about things that concern the rights and treatment of women. And then to run it by women who are involved to see if maybe there is some privilege-blindness in their speech. And then correct such privilege-blindness. Ron Lindsay did none of that. It’s not because he has a cock that he is drawing so much well-deserved criticism. Again, fuck off with your lame ass oozing letter.
Why do so many who wish to say “I can hardly imagine comments less offensive, less controversial…” then go on to paraphrase a small section of the talk? It seems that there was a preconceived message that they were hearing rather than the actual words of the talk. To what were they “listening” if instead they were busy formulating their own words to give in response? There should be some sort of warning we could give to others: “Stop projecting your current mindset in order to take on new data”? Naw…needs to be snappier.
Presumably, philosophia, you’re here for substance, not rhetoric.
Rape threats, death threats, harassment that continues for YEARS, doxxing, DDOS attacks, inviting the Westboro Baptist Church to harass the convention….
These are “reasonable points of view” that you find “valid?”
Maybe one day, a conference devoted to women in secularism can be organized by people who actually respect women in in secularism. Or at least want to hear what we have to say. Sigh….
Well, maybe not, but they hardly bear mentioning compared to the utter atrocity that is IRRATIONAL FEMINIST HIVEMIND GROUPTHINK ECHOCHAMBERS DEVOURING FREEZE PEACHES. And men being told to listen to women about women’s issues. Can you really expect someone to not confront such horrors first, and then deal with all those lesser, petty issues?
Anyone know if/when Secular Women will be making a counter response?
Rawnaeris: I’m not sure this warrants a response. How do you respond to nothing?
A mini round-up on this subject:
Brute Reason
Almost Diamonds
Lousy Canuck
There seems to be a general trend in the responses.
More and more, I cannot help reaching the conclusion that when doods in leadership positions in the movement want diversity so they can say they have diversity, not to actually welcome it. In the case of wanting more women, it’s for entertainment purposes only.
I think that is actually pretty common. Saying you want “diversity” is good PR, makes you seem like good guys. Diversity entirely for the sake of looking good. Of drawing in a larger market. They don’t actually want different viewpoints, don’t actually care about women’s issues, don’t actually care about LBGT issues, don’t actually care about racial issues, don’t actually about religious discrimination. They will pretend they care, but they don’t because they don’t see notable benefits to themselves or their bottom line, and that’s all they really care about.
Medivh, hmm, you have a point. I guess I just want to see a “well thanks for nothing” considering the well written Objection.
Philosophia @74,
Until the third paragraph of your letter you were just someone I disagreed with. Now you’re someone I suspect of disingenuousness:
Please do tell which blogs are these, with examples? You’re full of shit, Philo, and I think you’ll find quite a bit of disagreement to your comment. Let’s see if you get banned for it. When it doesn’t be sure to remember that Pharyngula is not one of those blogs you accuse of stifling dissent.
I just removed myself from their mailing list, with a bland note to match their bland notpology.
Too enraged to rant.
I may be overly optimistic but I have a very different perspective on the CFI response.
I understand why there is a very real sense of disappointment up to and including apoplexy regarding the response from CFI. Mainly, many didn’t get what they were looking for, the CEO getting his ass fired for being an ass. However, this is a response from a corporate entity and a large one at that relative to what they do. They were not going to fire their CEO for intemperate, misguided or even stupid remarks. Not the way corporations work. You can be pissed at the system but it is what it is.
I come out of a corporate environment and am reading this note very differently than most on the thread based on the responses.
I think that what PZ and Greta and many that have written letters about to CFI has in fact been heard.
I think the board said we know Ron fucked up. We are not going to fire him but…
How do we get to the next step. We want to be part of the solution. Tell us what we need to do to move forward with you and advance the cause of women.
This is a moment in time right now with CFI and potentially a broader group of organizations.
You can continue to be pissed off and lose the opportunity or take advantage. I’d bet real money that CFI and Ron would be very open to a dialogue of a cross section of the movement to discuss moving forward with women’s equality issues.
I think the crafter of the apology was aiming for the equivalent of a cold reading – commit to as little as possible, and be so general that you hope a lot of your audience will read what they want into what you say. But I don’t think that will work with a sceptic audience.
Gee, category error. CFI is a non-profit organization. Contributions are tax deductible. An organization allegedly dedicated to rational investigation and thinking. Do a reality check.
Perplexed, where are you picking up that they do think Ron fucked up in that statement? I personally, didn’t expect him to be fired, and heard very little in the way of people wanting him fired. But he did indeed fuck up, and I’m not getting any acknowledgement in that short statement, nor even another delay in acknowledging such. You don’t have to fire someone to discipline them and it seriously behooves CFI to acknowledge that at the very fucking least Lindsey is being sent through another round of diversity training. It’s true corporations often gloss over any mistakes. That is however, to their great detriment.
ethicsgradient (#105)
It certainly worked on perplexed. See the comment right above yours.
Correction. Nobody got anything. CFI’s statement acknowledges some unhappiness but fails to address the source or even the nature of that unhappiness, and mouths a few platitudes about working together for a nicer world, “going forward.”
It’s corporate-speak gobbledegook designed to look good whilst saying nothing.
Notice to fence-sitters: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice, and can be faulted for it.
There’s the key phrase in your comment, Perplexed. You think that’s what they said. Anyone can think whatever they want to about the board’s statement, because it says absolutely nothing. If they actually wanted to convey all the things you wrote in your post, they would’ve simply said them. They didn’t. Because that wasn’t their goal. Their goal was to say nothing and hope this all blows over. It’s simple ass covering.
@106…Not the way corporations work.
Gee, category error. CFI is a non-profit organization. Contributions are tax deductible. An organization allegedly dedicated to rational investigation and thinking. Do a reality check.
Gee, non profit 501(c) 3 are corporations. You can google it if you get a moment.
Is it even possible to bail on CFI and still support Melody Hensley, Lauren Becker, Debbie Goddard, and the CFI staff who did all the hard work of putting on WiS and have earned folks’ trust? Can they even speak out about this and still keep their jobs? (Or did they try, during the board meeting which culminated in that… patheticsauce weasel statement? Were they able to sign the speakers’ letter along with Stephanie Zvan?)
I’ve got no particular love or hate for CFI as an organization (up till now anyway…) but maybe what needs to happen isn’t a boycott so much as a coup. IMHO it wouldn’t hurt Lindsay at all to be reduced to a mere figurehead…
This is them being “open to a dialogue”? In that case, I recommend sacking the entire board and bringing in some people who know how to communicate at least on the level of a three year old.
Dialogue involves listening to what people are saying and responding to it. They haven’t done that, nor have they indicated that they’re going to. They’ve done nothing but delay, deflect and ignore. If this is their idea of dialogue, I’m not impressed.
@107…Perplexed, where are you picking up that they do think Ron fucked up in that statement? I personally, didn’t expect him to be fired, and heard very little in the way of people wanting him fired.
The way they couched the first line of the second paragraph. They are speaking for him. Fairly unusual for that to happen and they are telling you their (CFI) and his view.
Who are these people on the CFI Board?
Anyone we know?
You’re a slow reader.
And what view is that? That they don’t like controversy?
@111…17 June 2013 at 2:13 pm (UTC -5)
I think the board said…
@111…There’s the key phrase in your comment, Perplexed. You think that’s what they said. Anyone can think whatever they want to about the board’s statement, because it says absolutely nothing. If they actually wanted to convey all the things you wrote in your post, they would’ve simply said them.
Of course it’s only my opinion and I could be incorrect. But it’s how I read it since I’ve written so many of these types of notes during my career.. And maybe they will wait for it to blow over but again in my opinion it doesn’t seem like the community allows things to just blow over and they would know that. The board couldn’t write anything else or it would have looked like they knuckled under to the pressure. Pretty much no board in the world is going to allow itself to be dictated to.
Whut? here’s the line in question:
That doesn’t express a view. It expresses an intention, but in no way provides evidence that they’ve achieved that intention. And note the very next sentence:
It specifically doesn’t lay any blame, or show that they’ve put any thought into what caused the controversy; it merely says they’re unhappy about the controversy itself, not about the cause.
Try reading for comprehension.
Perplexed: First, stop pretending you can read minds. Second, go choke on your condescension. Third, your condescplaining is tedious, irrelevant and pointless. (cue: “I don’t have any idea why you’re being so hostile! I’m so Vulcan rational after all!”)
I, personally, don’t care what happens with or to Lindsay. He’s just another useless coward who can’t admit to an error in my eyes. Therefore, I don’t care if he keeps his job or not.
What I do care about is the total lack of leadership CFI showed with this non-response. THEY had the chance to be real leaders, to do something – anything – even if it was to more clearly side with misogynists. They could have done SOMETHING. Instead, they chose the chickenshit path. And that’s a path I don’t follow.
For those looking for somewhere else to offload their cash, Everyday Sexism is looking for funding so they can start doing outreach. http://www.catapult.org/project/fighting-everyday-sexism
Thanks Perplexed. I for one believe that sentence, or at least I believe they as an organization believe it of themselves. But, I think the second sentence right afterward is a re-hash of Ron Lindsey’s tut tutting, in it’s way (corp-speak, I mean). Perhaps if they had actually elaborated on the nature of their unhappiness (note how I assumed their unhappiness was meant to chastise those angered at Lindsey’s speech). Netflix bravely (if the second time out) said we are a corp that has fucked up. And I think that’s what kept them afloat. The public is too sophisticated for corps to always deny culpability no matter what.
@120…The Center for Inquiry, including its CEO, is dedicated to advancing the status of women and promoting women’s issues, and this was the motivation for its sponsorship of the two Women in Secularism conferences.
“That doesn’t express a view. It expresses an intention, but in no way provides evidence that they’ve achieved that intention. “”
Actually, it’s a view. They had the conferences so the intent became a reality based on their view.
Philosophia:
It is ever so nice of you to tell all the targets (primarily women) of the harassment, bullying and threats of rape and death that how they have been treated is not that big a deal.
If you have not faced any of this, I am glad for you.
But don’t you dare tell the victims of such abhorrent behavior that their concerns are not significant.
This is NOT a two sided debate.
Group A)
Advocates equality for all and wants harassment policies in place at conventions.
Has not sent rape or death threats.
Does not employ dehumanizing slurs and recognizes the significant difference between calling someone an intellectually dishonest asswipe and calling someone a ‘cunt’.
Does not bully, threaten, stalk, or attempt to silence their critics. In fact this group condemn these tactics.
Has not twisted events to suit their purposes, nor lied about events to make themselves look better.
Has actively spoken up for humanist values, and recognizes that feminism is one of those values
Roundly condemns Mens Rights Activists and does not knowingly provide support or encouragement for people who are affiliated with MRAs.
Understands that free speech is a right all people have, while recognizing that free speech can be abused, especially if one is pseudonymous online. These people also recognize that no one is free from criticism simply because they can speak freely. They also acknowledge that free speech has limitations.
The other group:
Continues to use offensive slurs, conflating insults like ‘fuckwit’ with gendered slurs like ‘twat’
Has told lie after lie and twisted events to suit their purposes.
Stalks the people they do not like on Facebook and Twitter and continues to email vile, sometimes violent messages to their targets.
Has not criticized MRAs and considers a known MRA associate to be one of their allies.
May speak up for humanist values, but does not recognize many of the foundational principles in feminism , preventing them from understanding, let alone supporting feminism. Specifically, I speak of the refusal to acknowlege privilege or patriarchy.
Has used rape and death threats, as well as threats of violence to intimidate their opponents.
Does not support harassment policies at conventions.
Believe free speech is a right all people have and that no one has the right to prevent others from expressing themselves in whatever venue they choose. These people di not recognize limitations on free speech and views criticism, mockery or ridicule of their ideas to be attempts to silence or intimidate them.
The two groups are vastly different and nothing done by Group A comes close to matching the heinous tactics of the second.
(Please note that I recognize each group is made up of a diverse array of people. As such, some individuals may make statements or take actions that the rest would not (example for group A include telling someone to die in a fire. Examples in the other group are writing for or doing an interview for a known hate group. The key difference is Group A will criticize an individual who uses violent rhetoric. More importantly, violent rhetoric has been apologized for and not used again. This lies in contrast to the other group who do not condemn asdociates of hate groups. This group has not-to the best of my knowledge-recanted any of the threats of physical violence or sexual assault. Nor have they criticized individuals who associate with hate groups)
Now, get out.
Ah. That explains everything. You’re a professional weasel word author. Pause for a moment and consider this: if you’ve written notes anything like this one in your career, you might be a terrible human being. Yes, I’m sure that’s not a pleasant thing to think about, but if you’ve ever penned a statement like this to people who have been mistreated, you’re probably a scumbag.
perplexed
Your talent for wilful misunderstanding is noted. Well done. You can stop now.
I wish to express my unhappiness with…well, just my general unhappiness.
Thank you.
Gee, with a ‘nym like perplexed, incorrect is the default when reading your posts.
This does bring up the question; are devious, newspeak-spouting corporate types really the ones we want in charge of our organizations?
Perplexed:
neither CFI, nor Ron Lindsay has shown an inkling of understanding why people are upset. How can you be so hopeful that they are willing to listen to women when they cannot acknowlege wrongdoing?
It also brings up the answer: No.
[Can we please get a how to blockquote guide]
@130…I actually think they know just how upset people have been and are. Let’s not forget they are the organization that sponsored the 2 conferences in the first place. I think they want to move forward with the equality issue and said so in their statement.
Okay, perplexed. Let’s all pretend you’re not painfully naïve and stipulate that CFI does, as you say, “want to move forward with the equality issue”
Please explain how one moves forward on the equality issue after writing this: “Going forward, we will endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement to enhance our common values ”
when all elements of the secular movement do not see treating women with respect to be a common value?
WTF does this corporate-speak mess even mean? “Move forward” espouses no stance on the subject, expresses no views, addresses no specific issues. It’s just space-filler.
You put your [blockquote cite=””] in.
You take your [/blockquote cite] out.
You put your sentence in,
Then you snark what it’s about.
Change square brackets to the angled ones
Press submit and then shout.
“That oughta show that lout!”
Perplexed – part of making a good statement is to not insult your audience. They know that there are an awful lot of people who are enraged. They ought to know that the first way to defuse anger is to acknowledge that the anger exists. They did not do that. And on top of that, they broadened the scope to say that there was “controversy” about the conference, not that there was “controversy” (itself a weasely word) about the talk that the CEO gave at the conference. In phrasing it that way, they left it wide open to interpretation that they were unhappy about the controversy that people at the conference dared to complain, rather than the controversy being about the bad talk in the first place. They specifically worded it so that people on “both sides” of the “controversy” could read it as a slant towards them, which is insulting to anyone with a rudimentary grasp of rhetoric.
I’m trying really hard to not start singing that out loud. Made my day! Thank you, Anteprepro!
at first, I thought this statement was completely content-free.
then I noticed that they managed to contradict themselves (“we will endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement” vs. “struggle together for full equality and respect for women”).
Since you can’t have a contradiction without content, I guess there is some content in there; it’s just so bland as to be near imperceptible.
All they have to do about “the equality issue” is nothing whatsoever, and they’ll “move forward” as time continues to flow. Alternatively, we could make a time machine and move backward on it. Of course, that’s not very feasible, so moving forward is probably the better option. It takes the least amount of work.
I always get amused by sentences like “We wish to express our unhappiness.” Why do you need to wish for that? What’s preventing you from expressing your unhappiness that you need to wish away? Just express your unhappiness already.
I think they want to move forward with the equality issue and said so in their statement.What the hell does that mean? Seriously, explain to me exactly what that means. I fucking dare you.
Why the hell is it that we’re expected to hold supposedly fellow skeptics to a lower standard than anyone else? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
If some corporation had fucked up and sent out this statement as an “apology”, we’d rip them a new one. Nobody would stand up and explain how they really “want to move forward” and we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
THIS IS BULLSHIT. They fucked up and now they want it to all go away without having to admit they were wrong or change anything about how they act.
Goddammit, this just pisses me off. I really wish someone from the board would agree to talk, even anonymously, and explain what the hell this is supposed to be. Seriously, can we have someone from the board contact a reliable source and give an interview? I’d sure love to hear this one explained without the corp-talk.
I’m calling it.
MachinIntelligence reveals in comment #110 a distinct liking for progressive rock.
Obviously, that first sentence was supposed to be quoted. I’m too annoyed by all this to get my tags right, apparently.
Um TRIGGER WARNING here:
If anyone wants to know why we need to raise the consciousness and attack sexism immediately, frequently, and viciously, check out http://www.salon.com/2013/06/17/why_didnt_anyone_help_nigella/?source=newsletter
TL:DR version: Nigella Lawson, white, rich, famous, successful woman choked by husband in public, no-one does anything.
Fuck me, but this gets old.
Perplexed, we have seen what leadership looks like and it more closely resembles John Scalzi’s response to the recent kerfuffle at the SFWA, not this piece of puff. In his case at least he admitted a problem that had a cause and an effect and which he was ultimately responsible for. That’s a first step. The CFI statement avoids responsibility completely.
Looks like they’re telling people to “Endeavor to Persevere,”
What a load of … bureaucrats
Okay, I have reached the end of the thread. Anything new to add, I ask myself?
-Well, not in terms of analysis.
Okay then, don’t comment.
-But I so wanna say how awful it is, I just can’t say anything about why it’s awful that hasn’t already been said.
You are why we get 500 comments on posts about the simplest of moral issues.
-So, I have to be accountable for adding redundant condemnation to list-form condemnations of deplorable behavior?
Yes.
-I can live with that.
@110 machineintelligence and 145 Crip Dyke
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill. I will choose a path that’s clear.
Does anyone think the next statement from CFI will be no more WiS because every time they do one a controversy erupts? That would be the ultimate weasel move I’ve come to expect. Before this statement was issued, I was thinking the next one better clear up some stuff. It didn’t.
No, they’ll just quietly not have another one. Then refuse to respond to anybody who asks why.
@152 UnknownEric
You’re right. That would require the least effort.
Eh, it might be for the best if CFI didn’t try to do a WiS3. Let some other organization that doesn’t have all that baggage step in and fill that niche. I mean, already you’d have the problem of at least some speakers not wanting to participate in a CFI-run event.
@154 screechymonkey
” Let some other organization that doesn’t have all that baggage step in and fill that niche.”
We’ve come too far, to give up who we are. So let’s raise the bar, and our cups to the stars. Did you see the post over on Skepchick about setting standards? I agree that they probably should move on from this, but it’s disappointing to see such a pathetic display of leadership. I think it’s a shame to get to this situation to begin with.
Maybe they will have a third, but wonder wh.y so few women attend. TAM all over again.
CFI didn’t “do” WiS 1 and 2. They provided institutional support for a conference that was all Melody Hensley’s hard work.
This is the really hard part about this problem: the leadership seems to be a concatenation of assholes, but the real face of CFI is represented by the good people doing the actual work of CFI. It’s hard to see how to peel away the assholes from the faces, without harming the people who count.
Well, that metaphor got a workout.
Deen@143:
One thing phrasing it like that does it bring to mind John Cleese in The Parrot Sketch – “I wish to register a complaint!” In fact, it puts a good deal more life into the whole thing if all parts of it are read in tones from Monty Python:
Michael Palin in the Spanish Inquisition sketch:
The mission of the Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.
Michael Palin as the Constitutional Peasant from MP & the Holy Grail:
The Center for Inquiry, including its CEO, is dedicated to advancing the status of women and promoting women’s issues, and this was the motivation for its sponsorship of the two Women in Secularism conferences.
John Cleese in the Parrot Sketch:
The CFI Board wishes to express its unhappiness with the controversy surrounding the recent Women in Secularism Conference 2.
John Cleese as the leader of the People’s Front of Judea, from Life of Brian (amphitheatre scene) :
CFI believes in respectful debate and dialogue. We appreciate the many insights and varied opinions communicated to us. Going forward, we will endeavor to work with all elements of the secular movement to enhance our common values and strengthen our solidarity as we struggle together for full equality and respect for women around the world.
I was aware that Melody was the driving force behind it, but I guess I assumed that she was still doing it under the banner of the CFI, so to speak. Especially when Lindsay was giving the “welcoming” speech, a role usually reserved for the host, plus I had the impression that it was CFI who made the call on whether to allow Vacula to attend.
When you say “institutional support” PZ, do you mean that basically, Melody did all this work more or less as a side project and CFI was ok with her using “company time” to do it in exchange for getting some credit, or is there more to it than that?
In my eyes, these people are the biggest victims of Lindsay assholish incompetence. All the work they did – which made HIM look good – and he took a big shit all over it, destroying all the progress and good will THEY achieved for CFI.
Not intended to be an actual statement.
QFFT
that… sounds sickeningly familiar.
from last August
July 2011
“We are unhappy that you forced us to pay attention to this issue.
Please do not do so again.”
(OT)
@147,
This woman did something.
J.B. @82 wrote,
Fair enough, if they want to do their own housekeeping. But I’m not going to continue to support the organization on the off chance that something will change their mind, when the well-reasoned and articulate outcry that they have already experienced did not.
Don’t forget Secular Woman.
So, having calmed down (and gotten some sleep), I went a-digging and found this:
CFI by-laws
There doesn’t appear to be any way of recalling the board, but they are up for yearly elections:
Note that “‘Associate Member” is a distinct category. I’m not sure how many there are or who qualifies, but “General Members” don’t get a vote (see section 46). I assume that donations only gets you a General Membership, though the donate page is not explicit.
Finally, there’s the question of which board members are pulling in which direction. Here’s the List of Board of Directors.
Honestly, though, I think it’s much more likely that nothing will happen. Ron Lindsay has dug his heels in from the beginning and now the board has supported him. I don’t think it’s very likely that they’ll change their current course; lots of lip service, no self-awareness. They’ll continue to alienate people and sit wondering why.
I’m not convinced of the utility of brick and mortar secular advocacy groups, though I totally get the motivations for conventions.
But I’m tempted to join CFI just so I could quit.
@168
Are you sure these are the bylaws of CFI – Transnational? Did you notice that they are labeled Centre of Inquiry. I think what you found are the bylaws of CFI – Canada, which is in fact an independent organization. Though CFI – Canada began as a CFI – Transnational affiliate, it is now totally independent of the U.S. organization. Might want to check to see if the two organization’s have identical bylaws.
Well, the pdf is hosted on the CFI main site and CFI Canada has its own, separate site. On the other hand, I did get to it by some creative googling. The by-laws are not directly linked from the site, so…
I’m not actually sure :/
@171
The by-laws are co-titled in both English and French, define “arms-length” with a reference to Canadian tax law, and state that the home office will be located in Canada.
I don’t think these are the by-laws you are looking for.
Your creative Googling was better than mine; I didn’t find any CfI by-laws, US or Canadian.