Come on, SCA. Exercise some care and vet your volunteers better. After Edwina Rogers, we need some confidence-builders in the organization, and learning that they’ve made this awfully stupid appointment does NOT fill me with confidence. Why would you want a guy who posted an op-ed on AVoiceForMen, a hate site, and who posts the home addresses of a woman he dislikes on another hate site, as a candidate to represent a state organization?
Of course, it could just be that the organization is so desperate for volunteer help that they’ll take the dregs. That’s not a confidence builder, either.
There’s a petition. Unfortunately, it’s already full of trolls using fake names — change.org really needs to tighten up their procedures. These petitions already reek of uselessness, and the fact that they’re so easily gamed makes them totally pointless.
Urgh. I already thought the petition was a mistake, and the fake names just confirm.
JT’s moved to Patheos?
Surprise, surprise.
… and he hasn’t softened his stance on theism a single bit. He’s following the money, and Ed Brayton supported his move and there’s no rift between FtB and JT that I’m aware of.
Justin is well known for his shameless self promotion it seems… Listening to his interview of Edwina Rogers and Kelly Damerow from the SCA I’d imagine he took every opportunity to smooze :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9iVvaZ0gku4
Also since there have been posts on FtBs about Edwina Rogers appointment not being a good idea I cannot see them reversing this decision. It will be those bullies from FtBs trying to harm a pure innocent sceptic again!
JT rather publicly posted he moved to Patheos for better money since he’s no longer working for the SSA.
I’ve seen him make various supportive comments about FTB even after the move. As Joe said, there’s no apparent rift.
(Granted, I’m a bit miffed at JT since it makes it a tad harder for me to keep up with blogs I like. :)
O_o
So did Dan Fincke and Libby Anne. Any words for them?
We learned how “useful” those online polls are with those 2 recent petitions asking for Rebecca Watson to be removed and not removed from the SGU podcast.
Apparently this Vacula guy has done activism for separation of church and state. As long as he doesn’t do anything related specifically to women I don’t really see the problem. I mean there are religious people working in the public sector in America despite the 1st amendment because they mostly keep their religion to themselves. At the weekend, when they’re not working, they can camp at an abortion clinic’s door and be odious for a while.
Analogously, he could help the SCA doing the separation of church and state thing and only publish personal information of people he doesn’t like on hate sites only during his private time.
It bothers me that the blog owner has not yet reconciled himself with the fact that 50% of the human race is of below average intelligence but still has IP addresses and can type. It is not really worth remarking on more than occasionally, or even once, as far as I can see.
The only solution, besides ending commenting altogether, that I can think of is a white-list, with its attendant maintenance hassles. Then of course it’s no longer a public forum. But we wouldn’t have to read PZ complaining any more.
@timanthony: I’m not entirely sure what you’re actually complaining about, but if these kinds of posts bother you so much, you do not need to read them.
A voice for men is a hate site same as Pharyngula is a hate site.
Which is to say it’s not a hate site.
PZ, wouldn’t a better use of your time have been to apologize to that redditor your erroneously slammed last week due to your own ignorance!?
Paul Elam showed up to the post in question to try and say that AVFM is not a hate site, despite being named specifically on the post at southern poverty law center regarding MRA hate websites. Other various MRA scum is going to flood in soon after, I am sure.
After you apologize to us for being an arrogant and ignorant fool who should shut the fuck up. It’s all in perspective, which you lack.
I’ve never formed an opinion on them.
I don’t even recall what it is specifically I don’t like about JT – I don’t keep detailed records of people I don’t like – but it’s most likely something about feminism he got publicly wrong.
So in that regard it’s good to see him go after Justin Vacuous. Funny that his first line of attack is self-promotion, though.
The petition isn’t useless. Every person who signs sends an email to the SCA telling them they want change and why. That I get more harassment in the meantime (which is a very small fraction of the signatures at this point) is simply to be expected. change.org has been cleaning it up, though, interestingly.
jose,
Odd, because I am finding that a lot of religious people in government seem to be wanting government to enforce their religion. While people have been able to separate their professional from their delusional lives before, we are seeing less and less of it.
Meanwhile, it is my opinion that a man with those attitudes towards women will exude it all the time. He will have to deal with women in this position even if he is not working the MRA angle. And those women will feel his venom towards their gender even though he is discussing something else.
Religious people in government also know there are other religious people in government. They know there are religious people in society. And they can’t tell, in a work context, whether someone is religious or not.
This guy most definitely will be aware of when he is dealing with a woman and his contempt for women will be utterly apparent whenever he does so.
Right, because Pharyngula has suggested creating a registry of people who disagree with with as many personal details as possible. And we’ve suggested that violence against the people we disagree with is a good way to make them learn a lesson. And we always victim blame when the subject of religious persecution comes up.
Yes, I see how Pharyngula is exactly the same as AVM.
jose (#7)
Well, either you think women don’t exist outside of areas specifically related to women or you don’t see how women who would be working with Vacula might have a problem interacting with someone who’s an obvious misogynist, even if he doesn’t do anything overtly misogynist on the job. “Oh, he only writes for hate sites on weekends? He only encourages and enables the harassment of women in his free time? I guess I shouldn’t mind, then. There’s no way that level of misogyny will leak over into our professional interactions.” No. Fuck that. Anyone who thinks that’s how it would go is a complete and total fucking idiot.
The government has an obligation to stay out of its employees’ off-hours religious affairs because it’s the government. But the SCA isn’t the government and misogyny isn’t a religion, so the First Amendment doesn’t apply. The SCA is a group representing non-theists; to effectively fulfill its mission, it must avoid hiring odious people who make non-theist look bad or who make it harder for certain allies to interact comfortably with the coalition.
15 and 17,
yes, fair points both.
@ckitching! But YOU need to read them if you’re then going to criticize them! You misunderstand…
PZ VERY frequently complains about things that are just part of life, like unintelligent people saying things that smart people think are… unintelligent. It gets to a point of me wondering if PZ might be a tad, oh I don’t know, INTOLERANT? He’s university professor, why shouldn’t some people be less intelligent than he is? And why should he complain about it, if to begin with he is willing to post his (intelligent) writings in a public place that has a commenting feature?
And I don’t have to read them? The only way to find out if they’re not worth reading is to read them. Think it through, ckitching! I think it would be a much better use of everyone’s time if PZ held back on complaining about the mundane.
Oh, you have no idea, olivercrangle. Pharyngula is TOTALLY as much of a hate site as A Voice For Men. Want proof? Just look at the banner:
Chilling, no?
Compare and contrast with A Voice for Men’s stated mission and values:
You hear that? ALL levels in our culture! Especially the ones that are dominated by, um, men, which is, um, a lot of them.
Because you know that no woman is worth spending the rest of your life with, and therefore you will be screwed when you eventually divorce.
Why a marriage of a man to a man is not mentioned at all, let alone evaluated in the potential harm it would do to the men in question, is kind of a head-scratcher.
This one I’m actually in full agreement with. But probably not for the same reasons.
One man’s “antagonism” is another woman’s harassment.
You know, feminist governance. Like the U.S. House of Representatives (76 women, 359 men), the U.S. Senate (17 women, 83 men), the U.S. Supreme Court (3 women, 6 men) and the U.S. President (1 man).
1 out of 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape within her lifetime. 1 in 33 men has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape within his lifetime. The perpetrators of these crimes are overwhelmingly men, in both cases.
Regarding domestic violence “hysteria”, here are the numbers: Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime. Most often, the abuser is a member of her own family.
As long as they get to decide what’s equal.
Oh, the irony.
Do I need to copy and paste my numbers for U.S. governing bodies?
One man’s “interference” is another woman’s “legal recourse”.
Yeah, I can see how Pharyngula and A Voice for Men is exactly the same.
Nothing the banhammer couldn’t take care of–not that I’m recommending that or anything, just saying it would nip this little problem in the bud.
Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense unless the gay men that are part of AVFM are GOProud gay men; you know, the ones who want to put a Republican in the White House and shift the already extreme-right SCOTUS even further to the right?
I have to say, I really don’t understand all these men’s rights / woman’s rights people.
It seems the men’s rights people think the woman’s rights people are about hating men, and the woman’s rights people think the men’s rights people are about hating woman.
Is anyone in the right here?
Well, if you don’t treat people with ladybits as equals as the MRA’s espouse, you do hate women at the end of the day. Feminists don’t hate men per se, but rather the social constructs of patriarchy/male privilege that keep the feminists from being fully equal. But the MRA’s view any challenge to patriarchy/male privilege to be a personal attack on them. A bit paranoid be they.
Uh huh. So…you don’t see any problem with 50% of the population being treated as not quite human, eh? Lovely.
tehconz (#23)
It seems like the antivaccinationsts think doctors and scientists are trying to poison children for profit, and the doctors and scientists think antivaccinationists are so dangerously ill-informed that they’re destroying herd immunity and putting people at risk of dying from vaccine-preventable diseases.
Is anyone in the right here?
I think it would be a much less waste of everyone’s time if timanthony held back on complaining about posts he reads on Pharyngula.
Shorter words for you, simple one: shut the fuck up. Ta.
Good points. I know nothing about these “mens rights” organisations, they could easily be a bunch of misogynistic assholes.
In principal though, surely if it’s ok to have people who campaign for the rights of woman, its ok for people to campaign for the rights of men as well? I understand that men have had a privileged position in society and have historically had little to campaign about. But surely in an ideal modern society where men and woman are truly equal, don’t both genders need their advocates?
Also, Cane, I absolutely have a problem with 50% of the population being treated as not quite human. What did I say that gave you the impression I didn’t?
BWAhahahah…. *snif* I needed that laugh. Thanks.
tehconz
False equivalence concern trolls are in the right.
Oh, wait. Did I say “right”? I meant the other one.
In principal, if everything was kept on an intellectual and factual level. But the MRA folks don’t do that. They lie about facts, they ignore and ridicule what feminists and their supporters say, they engage in smear campaigns include rape and death threats against vocal feminists of both sexes. Read up on what Rebecca Watson has had to endure for simply saying “Guys, don’t do that”. They essentially throw toddler temper tantrums at the prospect of not getting their way. Compare this to how the other side operates. Lack of threats, etc.
In an ideal modern society where men and women are truly equal, no one would NEED any advocacy at all.
I’ll assume that you didn’t intend to give the impression that you think this ideal society already exists.
In a society like that, nobody would need advocates. But since we’re not in it, what’s the difference, anyway?
This?
Just for starters.
And those who are, for real, campaigning for men’s rights, for human rights, realize that eliminating our current Abrahamic patriarchal paradigm is the only way to do that.
I agree.
You don’t think the “techonz thinks women are less than human” thing was a little hyperbolic? I was wrong to suggest the men’s rights groups and womans rights groups were morally equal without knowing the facts. But, I don’t think advocating for men automatically means hating woman any more than the other way around.
That’s way too naïve. It’s like arguing we need a Civil Rights movement for whites, or awareness campaigns for non-disabled people.
It’s more hand-wringing to give the privileged people more room to make it all about them, at the expense of others.
This is not an equal society, so your hypothetical does not apply.
*facepalm*
What the fuck do you think that the feminist movement is about?
Holy crap people, I’m trying to agree with you.
tehconz (#37)
Good thing no one said it did. The rest of us aren’t talking in hypotheticals. We don’t have to suppose anything about MRAs. Maybe you have to because you know jack-all about the subject, but there’s no actual mystery about how MRAs operate or what their beliefs are. If you want to contribute something, go educate yourself. Your ignorant supposition is of zero value.
(#41)
Then go educate yourself, and stop blithering about “what ifs” that have no relation to reality!
Yes, you’re right. I have no idea what I’m talking about. I’ve waded thoroughly out of my depth on this one. Sorry about that, I’ll fuck off now.
This the rather immature and unnuanced thinking, or rather lack thereof, on your part. Learn something before you sound like you are just a concern troll type one. Which means don’t post again until you get some facts, not presuppositions, which is what you have at the moment with fallaciously thinking both sides are equally bad. That is crebot/godbot type thinking.
Based on some of you earlier comments, no, I really didn’t think it hyperbolic.
There are lots of things that sound good when you hear the words (Heartland Institute, The Liberty Foundation, Freedom for the Family. etc) which, once you actually read what they stand for, what they espouse, and the tactics that they use, will scare the shit out of anyone who respects actual reality.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” for instance. I didn’t realize these MRA people I was defending actually do think women are less than human, because well, I’m an idiot.
You jumped head-first into a discussion you knew next to nothing about with a false equivalency, and you’re upset that people assumed you already were familiar with the subjects they were discussing? Just take your lumps, and don’t make the same mistake next time.
Dearest Caine, Divisitrix du mal
“Shorter words for you, simple one: shut the fuck up. Ta.”
Not very civilized, are you? Have you been badly mistreated and are now full of impotent anger? Sorry if that’s the case – wish I could help. Where do you live – I could come over there and sort you out if you like! Just kidding.
It may interest you to know I was really (hopefully and perhaps even in vain) addressing my comment to PZ himself, not to YOU! I just wanted to do it the easiest way, not expecting to be so “violently” disagreed with. So, Ta yourself, sir. Jerk!
No, that’s you. ;). Don’t like being teased, don’t tease others…
Who the fuck are you to have such an ego, that goes onto a public forum and thinks it only talks to one person. Somebody with their head up their ass, like you have. Try again later, when you stop being an egotistical asshole.
In other words, you are a delusional fuckwit who was brought up short by reality, which is that you are wrong.
Try again without the ego….
Not even close to funny. Threats, veiled or blatant, are not accepted here and should not be acceptable anywhere. Adding ‘just kidding’ to a threat does not make it a joke.
Don’t threaten me, Cupcake.
If you wish to address PZ and have a modicum of intelligence, you would avail yourself of his e-mail address right there on the main page. Those without an intellectual deficiency realize that commenting in a comment thread leaves their post open to discussion by anyone.
You think shut the fuck up is violent and threats of physical harm are alright? Goodness, you’re one fucked up Cupcake.
By the way, I’m not a sir and Ta is slang for thank you. Now please, run off and do something productive, like trying to get your brain out of low gear. Ta.
Ick, timanthony. Ick.
Your original complaint was tiresome. The repetition and the icky response to Caine is gross and stupid.
That’s some impressive dumbassery-to-wordcount density timanthony’s got going there. In ninety words he crammed: tone trolling, misidentifying anger, dismissing anger, being callous towards someone he supposes has been mistreated, threatening violence, pretending he’s not threatening violence by masking it as a joke, demanding PZ’s personal attention, pretending his comment should only be addressed by PZ, equating disagreement with violence (or “violence,” whatever that is), and assuming on Caine’s gender. Oh, and the name calling and condescension, while technically kosher by Pharyngula standards, are pretty hypocritical coming from someone getting on his high horse about civility.
Timanthony #48,
What a low act.
You should apologize and leave.
A. Noyd:
Heh. I guess between the -trix and my gravatar there just aren’t any clues at all! ;)
I’ve always found that -trix thing to be kind of annoying.
[present company excepted :)]
aviatrix, benefactrix, executrix, legislatrix, proprietrix
yuk
Although monitrix is kind of cool.
Chigau:
Don’t worry, it will go back to the standard Fleur du mal soon enough. Not that the Fleur provides enough of a clue to those of maximal density.
Yep, Guy Le Fleur, hockey great.
Nerd:
I just learned something new.
So some of Them™ think that Caine is an ex-hockey player?
With a pink atheist/feminist gravatar?
wait
Why not?
Chigau:
I imagine if someone actually thought that, they wouldn’t be so quick with the threat of physical violence.
And failing, that’s what’s baffling people
ATTENTION MONITORS. BAN MOST DEFINITELY NEEDED
You folks, particularly Caine, Divisitrix du mal (how about I call you beefcake?), can give it but you sure can’t take it. I’m not impressed. To answer a couple of your points:
First of all, I’m here because I’m a fan of PZ Myers, but not a blind deaf dumb stupid doting fan. I really do think he goes on a bit too much about the dumbness of dumb people. I find the dumbness of dumb people to be not worth discussing! (And I’m only using the term ‘dumb’ because ‘unintelligent’ is too long a word, and it isn’t as pointy as the word ‘stupid’. I’m only interested in offending beefcake here.
Second of all, Caine, Divisitrix du mal, you really are a little extreme, and over-the-top offensive yourself, and so you got some “extreme” back, didn’t you? Hurt much? BEEFCAKE :)
PZ is, imo, a tad annoying in public (i.e. his blog) so I commented right in the same forum and I can see nothing wrong with that. Believe it or not, there are others who are turned off by PZM’s tangential stridency – I’m not alone.
Lastly: Apologize and leave??? I already said “just kidding”. That’s already more than beefcake deserves for an apology. As for leaving, no. But I don’t think I will bother replying to any more of your witless babbling.
Maybe PZ himself wants to chime in? He could probably ban me if he thinks I’m so bad. Maybe send him a private email, beefcake.
Ok PZ, or someone needs to ban…and possibly do an IP trace and file a complaint over this because this asshole needs to GTFO.
just…kidding..
Hey, timanthony, winner of the most ableist comment this week (I’m sorry, it’s only Monday and the race is already over), just take your ass and leave.
If you don’t like what PZ posts on his blog, just leave. If you have an actual opinion on the matter at hand, you could share it, although by now most people would be glad if you just left.
Caine
Hehe, for me names in -ix will always indicate Asterix characters.
I understand that the troll uses “beefcake” as a form of insult? Can a native English speaker enlighten me as to why, or is it just trollspeak?
Beefcake is slang for heavily muscled man I think. I presume it is an extension of the gender mistake. Like being witty but without the wit.
Yes, Koshka, you are correct. It was my direct and in-her-face retort to “Caine, Divisitrix du mal” for her referred to me as Cupcake. Since I use my real name my gender is apparent and so her use of the term amounts to an sexual epithet – specifically one that would appear might be banned, from my reading of the Commenting faq.
But in reply to your comment, “what a low act”, I think that you are totally wrong to criticize me but not Caine, Divisitrix du mal, and that you invalidate your own criticism in failing, somewhat pointedly!, to address that.
Speaking of the Comment faq: Looks like I then broke it too by referring to “Caine, Divisitrix du mal” as “beefcake”. To be frank, I cannot bring myself to apologize to “Caine, Divisitrix du mal” because she’s so darned divisive! not to mention reactionary, provocative and bloody rude. But I will apologize to everyone else – sorry about using a term (beefcake) that could be seen as a sexual slur no better than “Caine, Divisitrix du mal’s” was when she called me “cupcake”.
As for the “threat of violence”, I was careful to add “just kidding”, and to precede it in the same paragraph with stuff that was pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek. She seems to be British as she said modicum, ta and lovely, all Brit. dialect, plus she uses other language typical of football hooligans, and they are all British (so am I, for that matter, so don’t get yer knickers in a twist I’m not being racist here) and she’s safe from me – I’m nearly 5,000 kms away and will stay that way for a while yet.
And I’m still not leaving! Not voluntarily. But I don’t want to get on the wrong side of the blogger by breaking his rules which is the main reason I’m pulling back, a LITTLE, now. However, “Caine, Divisitrix du mal” started the insults. She lives up to her online name with style. Really bad style.
timanthony
Stop digging.
Well, you are showing us you don’t think. Think about that if you can. Besides, why do newbies who don’t undertand the “cupcake” meme act surprised when it used against them?
The “cupcake” meme isn’t sexist, as it used against both sexes. Basically it mean you are an intellectual lightweight who pretends to cogent when they are not. And they have an attitude like you do. So, where is your problem? You are a lightweight.
timanthony, you have no idea what you’re even talking about.
Since I use my real name my gender is apparent and so her use of the term amounts to an sexual epithet – specifically one that would appear might be banned, from my reading of the Commenting faq.
and what a precious little cupcake it is, too!
I could come over there and sort you out if you like! Just kidding.
less kidding, more flouncing.
For the fuckwitted Cupcake: Cupcake.
Seriously, why the FUCK is this not an instant ban?
Don’t insult me with such bullshit.
Please take a pair of hedge clippers to that useless deflating speed back you have hanging between your legs and then please kindly go tea bag a pool of lye. JUST KIDDING