Ho hum. Another purportedly rational forum that thinks rape is a joke.
Would it be immoral to rape a Skepchick?
Post by Pappa » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:46 am
Not for sexual gratification or power or anything like that, just because they’re so annoying.
I’m really torn on this one. :dunno:
You know what’s really funny? The guy posting that crap apparently has some admin role there, and every one of his posts has this little postscript:
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.
Because professional fundraisers everywhere like to encourage people to contribute by joking about how they want to rape someone.
People like that understand neither rape nor humor.
So, it wouldn’t be rape for the purpose of gratifyingly putting one of those uppity wimmin in their place, eh? Wouldn’t be rape to show you had the power to shut one of those uppity wimmin right up…nah, just something you do when someone annoys you.
You’re annoying the hell outta me, dude.
Can this be reported to a host server? It’s basically a threat right?
That’s so funny I might choke on the laughter. Oh wait, that’s puke.
So punishing someone because they are annoying does not involve power. Interesting.
And bizarre.
Ogvorbis:
Dude’s way of saying “hey, I wouldn’t be a for realz rapist, cos I wouldn’t be doing it for rapey reasons.”
It’s just amazing, I can’t find my sense of humour anywhere.
How long until “Pappa” shows up here and complains about being bullied, I wonder.
And I thought RatSkep was a cesspit regarding attitudes towards women who disagree. *shudders*
This is extremely disturbing.
“I don’t really think rape is OK I just think it’s funny to behave as if I think rape is OK. Because there’s totally a difference.”
I’;m thinking “rationalist” is about as sadly lacking in qualifications as “atheist” or “skeptic”.
If nothing else, think about what this says about the prioritizing these people do:
*Surly Amy is completely inappropriate for feeling harassed at TAM, no matter what anyone said or did to her. Why can’t she control her emotions?
*Her response is so out of whack that it forces them to feel like suggesting raping her and anyone else associated with Skepchick. They are being 100% rational with those sorts of threatening comments.
*Anyone who suggests that they are out of line probably also deserves to be threatened with “joke rape” because sexual assault that can cause lifetime trauma is funny, but people criticizing them cannot be tolerated.
… I’m not sure how those people can live with themselves, but I’m sure glad I don’t have to live with them in real life.
Rorschach:
The nym “Pappa” makes it even creepier. I certainly hope this person isn’t a parent.
Oh FFS, what is wrong with these people.
Hmmm…
So… They’re like the rapist hipsters?
Yeah but both sides do it.
One side threatens rape, the other side claims to have been threatened with rape.
Even steven.
jeez.
And of course it’s one of those forums with the icons and gifs and banner-sigs and blinkey smileys.
I do not recommend reading the thread spawned by this rape…thing. (How is it even a joke?)
Improbable Joe:
You do live with them in real life. We all do. All these people are friends, relatives, neighbours, co-workers, etc. None of us gets to pretend we couldn’t possibly know anyone who would say such a thing or couldn’t possibly know a rapist.
Oh, come on now, PZ! Surely you can see that these fine men are just trying to help us women maintain our professional victimhood. If we aren’t raped, how will we be able to justify crying to manipulate men? It will be really hard, let me tell you! So we should thank these courageous men who work so hard to make sure that women are able to remain in their rightful place. With men like these backing us, the number of vaginas (er, uh, I mean WOMEN) will surely increase in the skeptical community, allowing men in the skeptical movement to get more fuck-toys/girlfriends/adoring fans (er, uh, I mean allowing women to stop being irrational . . . er, no, I mean allowing women to join in on the “tits or GTFO” meme, er, I mean . . . !)
Improbable Joe #12
You’re wrong, Joe. All of us have to live with them in real life. They’re thick on the ground. Pharyngula is one of the few places where their presence is not taken for granted.
Actually Caine, no I don’t. I don’t have any friends or co-workers! I guess I showed you!
I see Caine made my comment first and better.
So true and they are unrepentent.
From the website:
What a creep!
I don’t doubt someone from rationalia will appear on this thread sooner or later. I saw one saying that FTB bloggers should grow a thicker skin, so some of them are probably following Pharyngula.
Improbable Joe:
If you mean that you showed me what an asshole you are, I agree.
Jesus is it wrong to want to bash these people in the back of the head with a folding chair? Not out of anger or anything just because they’re so annoying?
‘Tis, that doesn’t change the fact that I only leave the house for food, beer, and to walk the dog, and I don’t wallow in the mess of people. Hell, I can go 2-3 days without saying anything to anyone but my wife!
Not to say that they aren’t out there… that’s why I stay in here, where it is safe, air conditioned, and it is where all my stuff is at.
Caine,
I guess “unemployed semi-disabled shut-in” is the same thing as “asshole” in your book. Good to know.
ell he achieved the “never grow up” part at least.
They should grow a heart
They don’t know they are on pharyngula yet. The comments are predictable (discussing if skepchicks are too ugly to rape, calling some posters humorless, etc).
what a bunch of fucking losers.
@pentatomid
Why not? Hipsters are the kings and queens of doing bullshit “ironically”.
Beatrice:
I can’t even begin to express just how tired I am of that sentiment. My skin is plenty tough. If it weren’t, I wouldn’t have survived six years of rape as a child. If it weren’t, I wouldn’t have survived the rape and attempted murder later, nor the two years of trials afterward.
The fact that I don’t find rape humorous in any way is not an indication of being a fragile flower. The fact that I don’t find rape culture in any way amusing is not an indication that my skin is so thin as to barely be there. I’m tougher than all hells and that’s not a boast of any kind, it’s the plain truth.
If these…idiots can’t even begin to cope with the reality of rape culture and can’t even begin to cope with the mildest of criticisms, it seems to me that the “tougher skin” problem is on their side, along with that whole “I can’t think!!1” problem.
Well, at least he isn’t using his admin powers for evil.
It’s not like Watson who hacked the JREF and banned people left, right and centre. She should be in gaol!!
Or so I’m told.
Personal story ahead.
Happened just yesterday. I lost at least one friend.
I was at lunch with two (male, atheist, skeptic) friends, and we began discussing the Deep Rifts (specifically, harassment policies,) and the subject of rape came up, and one of them said
I picked up my purse and walked out.
I don’t even have that many people I can talk about this with. I’m afraid most of my “skeptic” friends would side with the guy who said it.
FtB, PZ, regulars: thank you for existing.
Improbable Joe:
Just how did you think I was going to react to your comment? You didn’t say, “well, I’m a disabled shut in, I don’t really know many people.” You came across as an asshole and that’s how I took your comment. I’m not a mind-reader and it’s rather stupid of you to act like I should be one.
Regardless of your status, you still know or are acquainted with people who would say such things or commit rape. Attempting to deny that strikes me as silly, but don’t let me get in the way of your denial.
After the libertarians decided to call their bullshit wanktastic reality-free magazine Reason, I stopped believing that a title involving rationality necessarily means that the people responsible for said title are rational.
—
Caine #6:
And it should thus come to no surprise that there is a massive overlap between the misogynistic crew and Penn and Shermer’s liberturdian syncophants.
—
‘Tis #19:
I think it would be more accurate to say that Pharyngula is one of the few places where their privilege is not taken for granted, considering that they get away with the same bullying bullshit and gaslighting false balance, well…everywhere else, especially in the mainstream media.
—
Okay, seriously. I don’t know if I’m bordering on spam yet but everyone really should pop over to my blog and read the most recent post, half of which talks about me being harassed by an anti-choice asshole at a pro-choice counter-demonstration yesterday. This is war, and the regressive assholes who started it are just trying to blame us for it.
I can’t even… what is wrong with these cretins? What kind of person finds the idea of raping someone funny?
And since when was raping someone “not for sexual gratification or power or anything like that, just because they’re so annoying” suddenly not-rape-really? Does he have no conception of how many people have been effected by rape, or the sheer level of trauma it causes? I don’t understand how he can even bring himself to write something like that.
Sometimes I just really hate people.
Dick the Damned:
I just want to point out that this is a play on Galaxy Quest’s Never give up, never surrender.
Stacy:
Jesus, Stacy, I’m so sorry. And people wonder why women don’t feel safe. Yikes.
I just couldn’t stop myself from signing up to be able to comment on this. I guess one can only lurk for so long before the bile takes control of the mind.
The complete lack of empathy is just…. what the fuck?!
sidghljnqeiorsdjbnpd
Caine… I meant that comment to be self-deprecating humor, and clearly I failed miserably. I know that when I had friends and co-workers and family that I talked to, some number of them must have been rapists or sexual predators of some sort. On the other hand, I don’t even really have acquaintances right now. I have my wife, and I talk to my mom and dad occasionally, and there’s a lady at the grocery store whose line I wind up in fairly frequently, and the manager at GameStop, and I really don’t ever talk to anyone else on a regular basis in real life. I don’t “know” anyone outside of my wife and my parents.
I didn’t expect you to know that, but I also didn’t expect you to jump down my throat either. In any case, can we let it drop? We agree on the points that matter, which is that rapists are everywhere, and it isn’t remotely acceptable to joke about raping other people for any reason, let alone because someone is “annoyed” by them.
When you repeatedly reveal yourself to be irony-challenged hypocrites not averse to flinging pretty vicious insults at “your own” yourselves, you can expect both to be poked in your tender spots and just generally have the piss taken out of you in return. Expect more of it.
Not particularly well done, that site, but it hits a few deserving targets here and there.
Improbable Joe:
Yes, we can and I apologize for jumping on you.
Caine, as I was walking to the subway station I kept thinking about my best friend, who was gang-raped 42 years ago.
I was just gobsmacked at the remark. Not even conscious of feeling especially hurt just–horrified at the cluelessness, and felt powerless to fight it.
I just know they’re telling themselves and each other that it was unskeptical of me to react so “emotionally.”
~
~
~
Caine, I admire your strength.
I really don’t know how I would speak to these people.
The only possible way I could think of, would be to bring their family into it, i.e. “Pappa, if your mother revealed to you that she had been raped, would you say to her, ‘It was your fault; after all, you can be pretty annoying some times.’?” Maybe a couple of other examples of wife/girlfriend, sister, daughter.
Then of course they would say, “It was a JOKE, man, lighten up!”
And I would subsequently have to leave the room, as the urge to punch them in the face repeatedly might become overwhelming.
It’s not so much that they’re joking about rape — jokes in bad taste (rape, Holocaust, etc.) abound, and some can be really funny, in a bleak, black way — it’s that these people are using “joking about rape” not as humour, but as a bludgeon, specifically in order to terrorize and silence particular women. This is NOT about having a sense of humour, or of exercising free speech; it is all about maintaining, using, and abusing the existing power differentials between men and women to maintain the status quo.
Oh, it seems PZ has some fans there. When I say fans, I mean idiots who just love talking about how he’s ruining atheism and skepticism (together with skepchicks) and FTB and… who knows.
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=37971
Especially when raping someone “just because they are so annoying” is “for power”. How is demonstrating that you can impose physical consequences on someone who merely annoys you not all about power?
So some nasty little site makes jokes about raping people, and you’re here to chastise US? Guess what, jackrawlinson, you’ve been an asshole as long as you’ve been commenting here, and now you’re an asshole who has been BAAAAAAAAANNNED. Straighten out your warped, scrambled priorities somewhere else, because I’m done with you.
Jackrawlinson, where exactly is the irony in poking rape survivors in their “tender spots”?
jack dear, that site is so last week
also, are you ever gonna tell us if you’re ElevatorGuy?
I thought Rawlinson was confined to the TZT ?
OTBEd!
Caine,
Thanks… I didn’t mean to come off flippant about rape or rape culture, but I can see how it might have looked that way.
If nothing else, I would hate to give jackholerawlinson any Deeeeep Rifts ammo, right?
You know, a conversation could be had about the uses and limits of civility.
But if you’re on the side of civility, flinging crap won’t help.
And if you think people getting called names on a rambunctious blog known for attitude = joking about rape, or somehow makes rape jokes OK, you really are ignorant. That’s an observation, not a gratuitous insult
You’re apparently unaware that rape jokes hurt a lot more than the individuals you’re targeting.
Gregory Greenwood #38:
Daniel Tosh. /obvious
Stacy:
I know, I know that feeling. It’s a terrible one, too, because of the powerlessness it induces. It increases that feeling of being surrounded, of never being safe. The major thing people like that refuse to get is that for every “joke”, it’s one more trivialization of rape, it’s one more brick in sustaining rape culture and finding a way to excuse it as nothing more than “inconvenient sex” on the part of the person who was raped.
PZ, would you consider quarantining jackrawlinson to TZT? He’s been nothing except a douchebag troll who has had nothing at all to contribute and he’s been trolling for far too long.
Check out mozg complaining because someone altered their disgusting gang rape joke so it was NOT about rape. They’re real mad because the super important-to-them ~meaning~(i.e. rape) was totally lost… What the flying fuck?
Thanks for posting about this, I’d not heard of the site and I can happily avoid it now.(And to the people in that thread who voiced disapproval and faced the “omg SO PC” assholes, thank you too, you’re coolbeans.)
Whoops, late to the party. Thanks, PZ.
Improbable Joe:
Heh, that douchecake has been trolling every thread dealing with sexism since Egate, at least. He doesn’t need ammo, he makes his own up in his head.
Deeeeeep Rifts make the territory more interestin’ though, don’t they? :D
coleslaw @ 47;
Yup – I suppose that it is asking altogether too much to expect ‘Pappa’ to realise that, in addition to being horrifyingly misogynist and totally lacking in empathy, his comment isn’t even internally consistent. To any honest observer, this is obviously about power and the capacity to silence ‘uppity’ women.
Rock the fuck on Stacy. YES.
I suppose we could call them “rapesters.” I’m afraid they might like it, though.
Rapesters. They’re sort of like rapists, only…actually, they’re a lot like rapists, in that the concept doesn’t seem to trigger any sort of moral disgust.
They’re like the Neonazis who say that of course the Holocaust was terrible…if it had happened….also the Jews deserved it and it was awesome…if it had happened which it didn’t.
Darn!
I was looking forward to having two “jacks” on TZT.
Think of the joke potential!
Sadly, not only him. The internet seems to be crawling with his mini-me clones who seem to share his dysfunctional sense of ‘humour’.
I would like to believe that there is something broken in them, but I suspect that the vast majority of them are neurotypical – the scary part is not that they are some ‘other’ nothing like the rest of us, but rather that most people are entirely capable of such behaviour. That those who don’t find rape funny are, if not in the minority, then not in very much of a majority.
That would be too confusing. There can only be one. They would have to have a jack off.
Oh for the love of . . .
We should EXPECT people to joke about women being raped? What the ever damnable fuck?
I’m sorry, but the minute you’ve said, “Well, it’s SOMETIMES okay to joke about a woman getting raped because she totally deserves it!” is the minute you’ve lost any standing to talk about civility.
Ing, re: “They would have to have a jack off.”
You win an internets. A sniny one. Pick it up at the cashier’s desk.
I just wish we could have a deep enough rift that those people would be cut off from the rest of us permanently. I mean, I’m a sane human being, and when I disagree with people in ways that I believe are insurmountable, I don’t keep going back to argue with them, and read their every posting everywhere on the Internet. I’ve never gone out of my way to see what the racists are doing on the Stormfront forums, and once I realized that the JREF forums weren’t my style I just stopped going there and never looked back.
If these “rape is funny” idiots and pseudo-skeptics hate us so much, why don’t they go away and stop worrying about us so much? Why are they so emotionally invested or emotionally stunted that they follow other people around looking for excuses to threaten them with rape?
@Gregory Greenwood:
The silver lining, such as it is, is that most people simply haven’t thought about it that much. And because it isn’t a sign of mental illness or injury, it means that it has been taught to them, and what is learned can be unlearned.
Wow… it looks like I’m never going to that website! What a load of crap.
Speaking of the conversation earlier, about such people being around in everyday life: When I worked at a call-center, not too long ago, a co-worker complained of a guy harassing her, and told of the things he said.
They weren’t threatening in the sense that he was making threats, but they were crass, inappropriate, unwanted and unstopping, and that was more than bad enough.
Of course I supported her and urged her to speak to HR about it. Luckily, my urging wasn’t needed, she planned on it anyway.
Still, shortly thereafter the guy was fired for sexual harassment. And I spoke to a few other guys, who had been his friends. The things they said were so clueless that I avoided them for the rest of my time working there.
Douche: “I can’t believe it! He was such a good guy! Man, it was a conspiracy! A bunch of women who can’t take a joke. I was there for a few of them, and he didn’t do anything that bothered me.”
Needless to say, since I’d heard some of the things he’d said… well, instead of the intended goal of making the fired worker sound better, it only made this douche-bag sound worse. I don’t think I ever talked to him again.
It’s this whole callousness towards the feelings of others, especially women, and it sucks.
Aw, PZ, you banned jackrawlinson?!
I heard he might be Elevator Guy, you know. (I see jadehawk heard the same rumor.) I keep hoping he’ll confirm or deny, but now…?
I cannot believe how fucking sustained this hatred is. This is the first time I’ve ever seen anything like it online (yes, I’m sure it happens, I’m talking only about my own experience). Do Amy and Elyse and Rebecca have to put up with this for the rest of their goddamned lives? How many years? 10? 20? 30?
FUUUUUUUUUCK.
Improbable Joe, exactly. I don’t go poking around the slimepit, I’m not interested. Same goes with other sites I find disgusting or wrong or offensive or plain old uninteresting to me.
The fixation on those who stand up for women and against toxic sexism is one of the things which is most disturbing.
Ing: Gerund of Death @ 65;
If only we could convince all MRAs that in the end, there can be only one.
Then we just need to wait for them to decapitate each other, and the last bigot standing gets the ‘prize’ – a lengthy prison sentence…
Because we are all hysterical!!111!!1!! and they have to tell us that repeatedly and yell more rape jokes at us.
I head heard that too! And he never denied it! Which you think someone would when directly asked!
Jadehawk dropped some good links on the effects of sexist jokes.
The first one here relates to attitudes about rape as well:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g451601664828vh1/
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsp.56/abstract
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1998-07621-003
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/34/2/159.short
I found a PDF for the last one:
https://anonfiles.com/file/1eae17b8e5eba7420f5be281bccc0994
The “rape jokes” thing isn’t about making jokes, it’s not about humour, it’s not about transgression, it’s just “Shut up bitches, shut up shut up shut up!” in slightly different words.
Once you frame it that way, it’s easier to understand these privileged, threatened, shivering-in-their-boots fucks. The rape jokes aren’t for humour, they’re not meant to make people laugh; they’re meant to reassure privileged males and their enablers that everything is A-OK and the mean-and-nasty vagina-havers will soon go away and let them play with their winkies.
The major difference between Rationalia and Rational Skepticism that I’m seeing right now is, while the rape jokes aren’t made on RatSkep, they will be defended there (including those made regarding kids like Lunam. Classy.) Not unlike reddit, the rape jokes will be made and the participants will stand by them at Rationalia.
I really don’t know which is worse. Am I supposed to have some kind of perverse respect toward the likes of Rationalia for practicing what they preach?
He’s a liar. His remark is certainly about power. Threatening other people with violence is about power.
Yet another lie. Obviously he’s not torn about anything. He published this tripe.
So apparently the so-called skeptic community has reached a point where the rule is “if you can’t beat ’em with logic, rape ’em.” Doesn’t say much for their skepticism, does it?
In the first third of the twentieth century, one equivalent-of-sorts to all today’s assault jokes was racial humor — blackface, minstrelsy, etc. It was practically the core of the whole American culture, and anyone who didn’t laugh Obviously Lacked a Sense of Humor. I wonder if any of the perpetrators of that stuff ever used the “irony” defense? It would have given them as much credibility as the assault-jokesters today.
Of course, even the awful racial humor exists today under the irony excuse, the “keeping it real” excuse, etc. I recommend Spike Lee’s film Bamboozled — it’s not a complete masterpiece but it has some real power.
My main point is, if you asked these misogynists about that anti-Black humor, what would they say? It seems like they couldn’t have a problem with it without being hypocrites, but they would probably come up with something. Like “Feminism’s already won so there is no damn rape culture.” As if white people in the 1920s didn’t think that the black civil rights movement was over and there wasn’t anything left to complain about.
@Marinerachel
No. When someone is consistently awful the key word is ‘awful’. Rather sick of the media and liberals praising people who are absolutely abhorrent, but were consistent in their beliefs.
I read the ‘nym Pappa, and wish they would all fall into the rift.
I hope it is bottomless.Bwa-haahaa-haaa! But that’s just me.
Note to all ironic hipsters:
Sticking it to the man, you are doing it
I’ve been taking screenshots in case they wipe the thread: http://imgur.com/a/NREAq
Angry Dome. I’ll be in the Angry Dome.
Gregory Greenwood #64:
I have long been of the opinion that “standard” socialization does not teach us decent behaviour, but rather teaches us how to project horrible, self-centered behaviour as decent.
Josh #72:
I’d put my money on “the rest of their goddamned lives”.
The difference between us and the regressives isn’t that both sides think that the other is incorrect. It’s that we think we’re correct, but they think they’re right.
When many people laugh at sick jokes, their mentality is the same as that which enables people to enjoy horror movies. They’re not deriving sadistic pleasure from human suffering. Instead, they’re enjoying a spectacle set in a fantasy world. Someone laughing at a rape joke certainly reveals something disturbing in the human psyche, but it doesn’t mean that that person is evil.
Unfortunately, some people do gain sadistic pleasure from human suffering. They’re not content to tell pure fantasy rape jokes, and to only tell them in very restricted circumstances. Instead, they like to make them as realistic as possible, by introducing real people, and by emphasizing the idea of rape as a means to punish and humiliate uppity women. Those are the people to scared of.
anthonyrosa:
There’s the voice of privilege.
Chrismorrow, I was thinking the same thing and marvelling at how little progress we’ve made on rape culture. It’s so disgustingly entrenched. It sticks around long past the time it’s acceptable to say such things about other groups.
But if we’re going to call it out I think we need to make sure we don’t disguise the ugliness. It’s not jokes about “assault” it’s “jokes” about rape. Here is the parallel; here is how SHOCKING this shit should sound to everyone’s ears (warning—this is ugly):
Why, why, why, why, why, why, why are people not immediately screaming and flying into action to smack down the very same kinds of remarks when the target is women? Why isn’t Pappa immediately socially untouchable, a pariah?
@Stacy:
Good for you! Your story made me want to punch your friend(s) in the face. Your solution was probably better.
I can’t get the “Sexual harassment/elevatorgate/rape jokes aren’t that big of a deal, so STOP TALKING ABOUT IT” people to actually respond to any of the numerous important issues (Krauss defending his child raping friend, a girl being threatened with jail time for naming her those who sexually assaulting her, someone telling Surly Amy to light herself on fire, someone telling a rape survivor that they have rape fantasies, etc) that I’ve brought up. I post them, and it’s like I’m INVISIBLE. Maybe if I randomly stuck “Rebecca Watson” into one of those posts, they would see and respond?
…”to be scared of” rather.
Erista (aka Eris)
Where was this?
If they believed you were straight, Josh, Official SpokesGay, then they would not think it was funny. But if that was said about someone who was perceived to be gay/effeminate , it would be hilarious! Cuz, you know, then you’d be equal to a WOMAN. Hahaha?
Has anyone reported this low-life to its Internet Service Provider?
Don’t I know it, Erista. As I’ve said before homophobia is not a separate thing, it’s a baroque subset of misogyny.
hyperdeath,
Part of the problem is that when “everyone” laughs at a sick joke, there’s possibly someone in the room who gets pleasure from the idea of it happening to real people. So when “everyone” laughs, they take it to mean that their sickness is socially acceptable, which makes them more likely to act on it. We know from decades of psychological research that people act in different ways depending on their surroundings and social pressure, so there’s no good reason for these “skeptics” to assume that their violent and misogynistic rhetoric is harmless just because they wouldn’t act on it. We know that this sort of rhetoric gives other people “permission” to act out their violent fantasies, and to trivialize it is unforgivable.
hyperdeath:
That would be over here
Also, thank you for asking. :)
Thanks Erista.
hyperdeath:
That’s missing the point. Every person who jokes about rape, every person who defends jokes about rape, every person who laughs at a joke about rape is not only trivializing rape and shoring up rape culture, they are enabling those who would rape, giving tacit assent to such acts.
They think to themselves “I’m not doing any of that! You hysterical cunts just can’t take a joke!” rather than stop for one minute and think about what rape is and why so many people don’t find it at all funny.
We’ve had plenty of people show up at Pharyngula to sing the rape apologia song; we’ve had plenty of people show up to sing the “hey, it’s a joke, lighten up!” chorus. They stick their fingers in their ears and sing lalalalalalalalala in order to prevent actually thinking about what they are doing. When they have been refuted, argued with, provided with one citation after another, educated again and again and again, they continue with their chorus. Perhaps, as individuals, they are not evil. However, they support, enable and encourage evil acts and they do it with glee.
I think this applies to “Pappa” as well as Daniel Tosh. (The tl;dr: you can make jokes about anything, but the more painful the subject matter, the more skilled the comedian has to be. By the time you’re making jokes about rape, you have to be exceptionally skilled, and Daniel Tosh ain’t.)
@Stacy – good for you for walking out. And hugs.
I used to be friends with fbzrbar jub vqyl snagnfvmrq gb zr ba gur cubar nobhg nanyyl encvat fbzrbar ng ure bja jrqqvat, va sebag bs nyy gur thrfgf, orpnhfr fur jnf “naablvat.”
To recount the other ways in which this person is a moral void would take too many pixels and too much energy, and would be a derail in any case.
Mozg on that forum (her handle is Russian for “brain” — another “if you have to say it…” nym) is the requisite Chill Girl™ in that discussion.
Yeah, all the women here and on Skepchick are “sweetness and fluff.” Also we totally are jealous of Mozg’s company.
Stacy: …and nothing of value was lost. You did well by walking out, and I hope you have been able to defriend the asshole who said that on all social media as well.
Hi, Rotato. Yeah… I hear you.
Awesome,
Elevator GuyJack Rawlinson’s been banninated. I had been about to ask him to please go diddle his stop button in private…Hairhead, the problem with bringing their relatives into it is that such men regard “their” “women” as their property and aggressions against them as aggressions against themselves. Women belonging to “other men,” or “unowned women,” are fair game. Until these men can empathize with women as fellow human beings, not possessions, they won’t change their attitudes.
Gregory and Setár, yeah, there’s nothing particularly “broken” about them in any clinical sense. They’re perfectly suited for our culture.
Oops, I mean to say
Well, the cutesy, pink Hello Kitty icon does add to the supposed ‘irony’.
But if they were real™ rapesters, wouldn’t they be bragging about raping skepchicks before it was cool?
Hmmm – I guess that does make jackrawlinson the original rapester.
Is there any way that anyone knows of to find out “Pappa”‘s actual identity? For general public safety’s sake, this information ought to be out there. People may want to know if he’s in their area, or what public events or functions he might be attending. For one thing, it would be useful in finding out if he’s on a sex offender registry. Not saying that people who make rape jokes have necessarily done it for real, but after shit like what went down in Aurora, let’s say I’m more willing to err on the side of caution when dealing with potential hazardous people in my community.
I guess I’m just a sucker for good conversation with bright people. That’s what I’d do with a skepchick, if I had my way with one.
Markita Lynda—damn climate change!
Vile as that forum is, attempting to get it shut down is going too far. Not providing a platform on your own property is one thing. Attempting to shut them up on their own property (i.e. the webspace they are paying for) is quite another.
Oh, bullshit, Hyperdeath. We have every damn right to contact their ISP and point out a probable TOS violation.
There’s an essay in Communications Theory about the functions of humor: Identification (confirming and creating group-identity), Clarification (distilling a social norm into a short, memorable phrase); Enforcement (punishing deviance from the social norm by making it the butt of a joke), and Differentiation (creating an ingroup-outgroup dynamic and ridiculing the outgroup).
The author of the essay was trying hard to put a beneficial, pro-social spin on these functions (strengthening social bonds, criticising without alienating, teaching/socializing children, etc.), but humor that punches down the power-gradient absolutely has these functions too, they just work out in a very toxic way. And rape “jokes” are a good example of this toxic version of the humor-functions.
Rationalia began as an exodus from the now-defunct richarddawkins.net forums. I used to post there quite a bit.
If this kind of thing was going on back in those days, I was oblivious to it. I’m glad I stopped paying attention to the forum years ago.
Amy has a post up at skepchick on how she deals with the hate. But the most important part to me is a sideline. If you’re an FtB Blogger or know someone who has a voice that carries weight please follow this advice and urge your peers to do so!
Sheila at 102
well put. I wrote that down.
Improbable Joe and Caine, I completely agree with what you’re saying. I wasn’t trying to defend such behavior.
Not funny. Why? Because it’s not even a little humorous to turn the subject, even abstractly, into what YOU would do if you “had your way” with a woman. Not funny, no matter your intent.
Don’t argue this, don’t double down. Seriously. DON’T.
Chill girls are so tedious. I don’t think anyone could (or would) ever, at any point in my life, describe me as “sweetness and fluff”, let alone “constant sweetness and fluff.”
fighting rape culture = sweetness and fluff?
that’s too stupid for words.
*smokes cigar*
Yeah get all sweet and shit *guzzles wine* Get on that or whatever *puff puff*
Also isn’t going TEHEHEHEHEHE at things and rubbing the shoulders of men who get mean things said about them by bitchy women closer to the “sweetness and fluff” thing?
Or am I mistake?
Jadehawk:
It really is. Now we’re back to the . If we aren’t a chill girl, we has them.
remember that the “one of the guys” thing is based on the “guy stuff = good, girly stuff = bad” dichotomy. so, being cool with crude sexist jokes is tomboyish and awesome, while not being cool with that kind of “humor” is to be a femme, dainty, girly, pink-ruffled-skirt-wearing girl; and therefore sweet and fluffy.
Caine:
Mm. Self-loathing that they project onto other women, topped with desperation for male validation. So appealing. They’re as pathetic as the d00dz who fondle their guns and fantasize aloud about how they’d have shot down James Holmes or Cho Seung Hui but who’d piss their pants if they were ever actually in such a situation.
Josh Seriously???? Whaddaya gonna do? Throw some pixels at me? I’ll call my mom.
Anyway, do your worst, I love a good flameWar. I gotta work on some Ancient Alien ridicule tonight. I’ll check back around midnite and see what ya got, take your time… Make it a good one, be succinct, no fucking diatribalectic monster manifestos.
Here, I’ll start out with an easy one:
Hey Josh, are you always this drunk so early on Sundays? Maybe you should try some morning Jesus for anger management. Just dump your brane out on the desk, you’re not using it anyway. Then pour in some bible until the pain goes away. No hangover, and the first one’s free….
Sorry, but his kind would claim to be the perp just as another “joke.” You’d never know.
The Watson bashing thread at rationalskepticism forum is just as horrid. I’ve given up posting counter arguments on there, because the echo chamber in there will instantly howl you down; plus I feel I need to scrub my hands for hours after getting involved.
Scooter, stop being a douche. It’s pointless and stupid. Josh was right.
Josh #112: I think it should just be “encourages violence”, but…well, HELLFUCKINGYES. I’m still reeling after yesterday’s anxiety attack, and it’s purely sickening to see so many people so blatantly say — despite their weak attempts at saying it’s the oppsite — that whatever they do is okay as long as they’re the ones doing it.
We think we’re correct, but know that we have to live up to certain standards, as well as acknowledge when we are not correct, in order to be right.
They think they’re right, full stop.
And that means that no matter how much we would like a discussion, this is war, and we can’t be merciful because they won’t ever give us the same consideration.
idlemind:
You just wandered past an in-joke. Rawlinson had a history here.
scooterskutre, shut up and give it a rest. People give you and your particular sense of humour a wide berth here, but you’re over the line now. If you must persist, take it to TZT, so you won’t derail the thread.
Comment by scooterskutre blocked. [unkill][show comment]
It’s getting to the point where I’m being conditione to feel nauseous every time I read the work ‘skeptic’.
It’s like these fucking assholes have convinced themselves that, because they’re right to not believe in gods, they must be super-fucking-geniuses in regards to every other topic, too; ergo, if they say making rape jokes isn’t a bad thing, then it can’t be a bad thing.
“I can’t be wrong – I’m a skeptic!”
@Wowbanger
Skepticism==setting a low hurdle and spending the rest of your life congratulating yourself for making it
Phew, it’s tough keeping up with this comment explosion! I’m just happy everyone is getting this shit out in the open.
@#90, Josh, those kind of rotten examples are what crossed my mind when I read that damned thread. Can they not see themselves or others that they know/love in such horrible situations? That would be bad, yes? I am just a little worried that these people just… don’t think. Which seems like the opposite of what this whole skepticism dealy is about, right?
@#103 Ms Daisy, hello! I thought my first ever post on this blog would be buried under all of the awesome discussions. I spend too much time reading that 100 more comments pile on top of mine. To reiterate: akljdnlasghqwn rohi yrjqoyhikawernagl.
@Stacy… just excellent!
Being one of those male men things, I too was oblivious to alot of just what was going on. But speaking to alot of old friends (and even my own brother) after a bunch of time away from them, and some of the things they say… I’ve been told to fuck off for being “too PC” many times before, just for simply being against the idea of rape/racist/homophobic/WHATEVER “jokes”.
Just…. urgh. GRRRR. I shall join the queue for the Angry Dome.
Wowbagger:
You and me both. I’m firmly planted in the “humanist atheist capable of critical thinking” camp. I wouldn’t call myself a skeptic for all the tea & money in the universe.
I had to laugh at the name “pappa” . A person pretending to be a source of light and wisdom, who is perpetuating rape culture. A lot like the pope.
@llewelly
I admit I feel guilty because I chuckled imagining him as Papa Smurf :(
Rotato:
Um…we’ve been getting this shit out in the open for years. Welcome to the shark tank, Rotato. Our lounge is here, it’s an open thread.
If the ISP has an anti violence threats policy, we would be doing them a favor in reporting them. (And it would be the site’s fault for breaking their ToS).
If the ISP does not have such policy, then it would be nice to know what ISP it is so that we can recommend against it.
Oh, no, it wouldn’t be for power…more like “corrective rape”, only instead of trying to cure women of lesbianism, it would be to cure them of obnoxiousness. That’s totes acceptible!
*barf*
–
Stacy: .
–
llewelly:
:snortle: And, Llewelly! ♥
The term “skeptic” has become too toxic for me to touch. It used to mean “someone who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual”. Now it means “a misogynist who doesn’t believe in Bigfoot”.
Cicely:
That’s the term that I couldn’t quite get ahold of earlier – “corrective rape”. Thank you. Yep, that’s it in a nutshell.
Snorfle!
Setár:
Yeah. They are convinced that being right is better than being a decent human being, and that “winning” at any cost justifies any and every behavior that they engage in.
We don’t need to be merciful, but we DO need to be as fair as they deserve and in no case stoop to their level. As angry as they can make us, we cannot allow ourselves to wish harm on them or resort to the same level of threats that they thrive on. I don’t want them dead or hurt, I just want them to stop being so cruel or at least keep it to themselves.
scooter, what happened in your brain right then is called reactance: “Research indicates that some linguistic features seem to evoke the perception that free behavior might be curtailed, eliciting psychological reactance.”
This is not a reason to feel proud of yourself; it’s trivially predictable ape behavior.
If you want to be more interesting, may I suggest you instead try to engage your sense of empathy and understand why many women here, and/or those women at SkepChick, would not appreciate being talked about in this “if I had my way with one” manner.
Ing wrote:
That, and also using having cleared that low hurdle as a justification for retaining whatever uninformed opinion you might have about completely unrelated issues – e.g. those relating to social justice and equality – despite evidence to the contrary.
‘Tis:
Yes. It’s amazing how many things that magically doesn’t apply to anymore.
Look condescendingly on you for being the fucking idiot that you are.
Yeah, I guess I’m new to the trenches. I kinda meant I’m glad it’s STILL getting pushed into the open. Though it’s horrible that this shit continues to permeate society.
I’ve been missing out on the battle! Or something.
Time for this quote! This is for any male lurkers, from Rationalia or elsewhere, who think this kind of thing isn’t a big deal because they’re not really going to go out and rape someone. Bolding in original.
On Being a No-Name Blogger Using Her Real Name, by Kate Harding
Pt 1 Rebecca Watson, PZ and Scooter on ELEGATOR
http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner356.mp3
Pt 2 Tracie Harris with Houston Atheist Women, and callers
http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner356-2.mp3
Not my first rodeo on the subject.
Rotato:
Then those fangs need sharpening! Join right in. :)
Scooter, 1.) I’m not going to your links. 2.) The contents of them, and the fact that it’s “not your first rodeo on the subject,” don’t really reflect on the fact that you acted like a douche and need to stop.
ixchel has it right. Just stop digging, all right? It really is pointless.
Scooter, what do either of those have to do with your joke? Do they somehow make up for your implication that Skepchicks have no agency or personhood?
@149, thanks for that. Now perhaps I’ll be less gobsmacked when I next speak to those that see no problem in all of this, as I’ll have something to say to them.
Also, hey Scooter! Dig up, stupid!
scooterskutre:
That is not the point and you damn well know it. Knock it the fuck off, this is not about you and really, “not your first rodeo on the subject”? Fuck off, we’re hardly new to it, thank you.
Rotato:
Some good material on the basics:
Nice Guy™ 101.
Schroedinger’s Rapist.
Predator Redux
Things Happen to Men Too
The Male Privilege Checklist
Intent is not magic.
scooterskutre
You aren’t a newbie here.
What are you doing?
[only slightly on topic]
Ahem. *preens*
I would have been all excited hoping Caine or Daisy (both of whom are notably less sweet and fluffy than me) would put it as their secondary nyms, but both of you changed yours pretty recently, as far as I remember. So I stole it.
:)
Cipher
Sweetness and Fluff goes very well with your creepy avatar ;)
Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff:
It looks good on you! Someone would have to be the rankest newbie to believe sweetness and fluff attached to me in any way. You’re often polite to start, then the fangs come out and are buried in some unsuspecting neck before they’ve realized you pounced, so I think it seriously works for you. :D
What is the motivation behind these rape “jokes”? They can only be funny to bullies.
Non-Practicing Anarchist
I’d like to see what would happen if this wanker met a real anarchist.
Wait so are we fluffy skirt wearers (even the men) or are we big butch amazons with legs akin to the razor backs of wild boar?
*spritzes with spray bottle*
NO! BAD! WRONG!
Ing:
Both, I think.
Yeah, I’m not down with this, “Let’s reveal the personal information of people on the internet!” thing. A chunk of the reason that I feel this way is that if we get into a culture where that kind of thing happens, I’m going to have to quit posting online. I am NOT as strong as Rebecca/Amy/Jen/Greta/Ophelia/Stephanie/etc, and I am NOT up to dealing in real life with the crazy shit that’s been going down on the web.
@Erista
FFS, this isn’t “let’s reveal the personal information of people on the internet” it’s “let’s inform a host server of a breach of conduct and possible illegal activity” This is about protecting people who are threatened or harassed
Erista:
Who said anything about revealing personal information? Reporting someone for TOS violation has nothing to do with revealing personal info.
Ing, while in a moral sense you’re right, Erista’s concern is that the blowback will be too much for some people to deal with.
I don’t mind someone contacting the server. However, I do mind this:
What happens when the other side decides that our “actual identity” should “be out there” so that people can “know if [we’re] in their area, or what public events or functions [we] might be attending,”?
@Erista
Do you actually think they wouldn’t do that to hurt people just because someone else could do it to them and doesn’t?
You think that people who make rape and death threats wouldn’t do that if they could? The agency for their actions is not on people reporting bad behavior. Appeasing them is not going to make them nice.
@Cain/167
See post 106, which I partially quoted in my post 169.
Martin at 106 did mention trying to figure out the actual identity of Pappa. I rely heavily on my nym too, so in an abstract sense I’m not cool with that either, but I can understand, for instance, a Skepchick concerned that he might show up at a conference justifiably feeling differently.
—
Thanks! I’m glad it comes off as creepy, frankly.
Hehe. Frankly I think that assessment is one of the best I can hope for. :D
I’m not saying stoop to any level, but I am just pointing out that if they can drop dox and want to they will.
Apparently hitting refresh before I post is too difficult for my sweet and fluffy pink ladybrainz today.
lilandra #160
But that’s the whole point. Bullies get called out and they immediately respond with “it’s a joke, can’t you take a joke?”
Caine wrote:
As Erista (aka Eris) has quoted, Martin Wagner did mention ‘letting people know he’s in their area’, which is a bit closer to personal info than it is to reporting him to the ISP.
what I’m wondering is how many you have met, since the most likely answer to your question is “exactly what we’re witnessing him do now”, since deconstructing hierarchies is apparently rape-joke-worthy in his mind.
anarchist is not synonymous with violent punk
#170/Ing I’m saying that if we promote a culture that views revealing personal information based on things said online as acceptable, it’s going to happen more and more often, and we’re ALL going to have to deal with it. And I for one cannot take the backlash.
Scooterskutre, if this isn’t your “first rodeo,” then you ought to have a fucking clue that you’re in the wrong thread to be playing court jester and that past accomplishments don’t entitle you to do so.
Also, I hate to break it to you, but you aren’t nearly as funny as you think you are.
Joe:
I have seen years and years of that behavior from the self-important neckbeards of the internet. I have a feeling that, as with the GOP and mainstream political culture, they sense they’re losing their grip on internet culture, and they absolulely cannot handle it.
Cipher: ;)
I missed that, sorry.
Rape and death threats are acceptable? I’m sorry someone correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like these are people who are already looking for any avenue to shut up people they don’t like and exercise their power over them. Why wouldn’t they? In fact I think we have had trolls here do that to pseudonymous persons. Right out of the blue.
They already do that if they can
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/07/exposing-the-hate-one-woman-gets-for-examining-video-games/
Caine,
Yes, it was. He didn’t see nor care that the things he’s okay with might bother someone else. There are reasons I never spoke to him again.
Yeah, I totally didn’t say that.
@Erista
That’s not my point. My point was that these are already the types of people who would do that. Cause they do.
Erista:
Okay, I forgot about Martin. However, that was one person. You’ll note his notion didn’t get any support. Unless there’s something serious at stake, I don’t generally support outing people on the net.
That said, don’t mistake how easy it is for anyone’s real world info to be found. I’m not the only person here at Pharyngula who has had an internet stalker turn up in meatspace. I understand your desire and need to stay protected, I share those with you. Unfortunately, the reality isn’t a simple one. The best I can say is that people and incidents need to be taken on a case by case basis.
What Caine said.
Ing wrote:
No, but I think there’s a difference between what counts as an attempt at a joke and what is genuine threat. Without knowing anything more about this ‘Pappa’ idiot then what’s been presented here today, I’d say that it’s not a real threat – but he certainly needs to be yelled at good and proper, and made to realise that comments musing about casually raping someone is not a joke and that it contributes to rape culture and needs to stop.
Plus, as has been noted, there’s what happens if that door gets opened. Who decides what constitutes an offence worthy of having your details revealed? I know that even as we speak the slimepitters and their scumbag ilk will be dishonestly insisting that an invitation to porcupine oneself counts as a threat of violence that merits the same treatment.
We know it doesn’t – but can we count on everyone being that perceptive?
anthonyrosa:
Yes, that’s plain to see. Good for you, by the way. I think it’s often underestimated, the good it does when men speak up against everyday sexism. Many of these men wouldn’t pay the slightest attention to a woman protesting, they’d simply brush it off with insults and jokes, however, it’s not always as easy for them to do that when it’s another man calling them out.
183/Ing
Of course there are. But in a climate that says it’s okay to reveal personal information, MORE people are going to feel justified. If we as a culture condemn revealing personal information, if we instead notify servers or the authorities, we have a greater ability to justifiably argue that revealing personal information is wrong. But if we reveal personal information when we feel justified, then we’re letting the world know that we think it’s fine to reveal personal information so long as the individual feels justified. And people will respond in kind.
In short, yes I do believe that if we start revealing personal information, some people who previously did not feel justified revealing personal information will decide that we deserve what we are dishing out.
Oh please…
“Nice house you have, lovely family…good day sir,think about that ‘insurance”
FFS, that door is already fucking open! That’s my point.
They’ve noticed the thread is being watched and are getting all self righteous. Apparently suggesting people rape women is a funny, funny joke but suggesting it might be a good idea to find out who is the person making the rape joke/threat is “ignorant and terrible…”
Strange priorities for people who call themselves rational if you ask me.
Also the hermit in that forum is not me; he must be on of those hermits from the other side of the goat track…nasty bunch…whole neighbourhood’s gone downhill since that crowd moved in…
Rape jokes? Really? This is a rational, reasonable response? Apart from “flog these idiots with a cat o’ rusty caltrops” I can’t think of anything sufficiently hateful enough to express my hatred of this behaviour. I don’t hate a lot of things, but clueless, insulting, juvenile, entitled, empathy-deficient fuckwits making thoughtless jokes about victims of violence is definitely one of them.
Ironically, it’s one of the few things that gives rise to violent thoughts of my own. Good thing I’ve not encountered any of these fuckers in real life, I suppose. First, because I’m not sure my impulse control would function; second, because I’m pretty sure I’d get my arse handed to me if it didn’t!
Another thing: I reckon most people like this *know* such jokes are fucking unacceptable amongst most people, and so, when in meatspace, keep such “humour” confined to the snickering little gradeschool circles that “get” it. But as we all know and can attest to, the practically repercussion-less environment of the interwebs is a breeding ground for invincible fuckwittery of all stripes, spots and paisleys.
Anyway, score [1] for irony: these stunted, man-child narcissists would probably claim to be some of the “bullied” if someone called them out on their victimising and dehumanising brand of “humour”.
Wowbagger:
We know it doesn’t – but can we count on everyone being that
perceptivehonest?Fixed that for you, seeing as you were using the SPers to make your point.
When rationalization requires, talk about changing the culture and limiting opportunities to do harm.
When rationalization requires otherwise, there are just “types of people”.
Caine,
To be fair, I didn’t speak up to him long. Just simple things like “You know, some men act differently around women than around the boys. Just because he’s nice to you doesn’t mean he’s nice to women.” That was what caused him to say the quote I gave above. I didn’t argue long after that. There was no point; he revealed that he had no problem with what the workplace itself considered sexual harassment, and continued on about it being a conspiracy.
I kid you not, he said this: “Doesn’t it strike you as suspicious that numerous women all complained that he sexually harassed him? If it was just one, I’d buy it, but a number? No… they had to be out to get him.”
I don’t recall my reply. It was something automatic such as “I don’t know about that,” but I didn’t pursue it. I just wanted to stop talking to the fucker.
I’m guessing you guys don’t like Louis CK either? It’s kind of ridiculous that people feel like they can sum up an entire person’s existence (pappa, who I don’t know personally) via one joke comment posted without context by a blogger (who doesn’t know the person either or understand the no holds barred, dark humor nature of the forum in question). Then you can condemn an entire community based on the same meager information. By these standards, Facebook, WordPress, and Yahoo are dens of Satan. This is not “rational” either.
@Ixchel
Sorry your point flew by me… what?
AHAHHAHA I hope you get hit by a car! Seriously! Play in the street!
I’ve never seen this Louis CK, but did he question whether it would be ok to rape people he found annoying?
Anthonyrosa:
Oh gods. It’s always the same, tired rhetoric. “It must have been a conspiracy! Wimmin, you know…you can’t trust them.” It’s rather astonishing that it doesn’t once occur to them “Well, yeah, it makes sense, if he was harassing one woman, he’s harass others. Part of the pattern and all.”
I might not have responded at all if Martin wasn’t one of the bloggers at FTB, but he is, and I feel that this makes his statement one that at least warrants addressing. Already people are running around saying “The bloggers at FtB are outing people’s personal info, so we should, too!” They are gaining a feeling of justification, and that spooks me.
@Erista
Why it’s almost as if they’re just looking for an excuse.
I doubt anyone gives half a fuck for your pathetic whingeing on behalf of the poor poor rape-joke-making piece of shit.
your attempt at reductio ad absurdum has been duly noted, but c’mon: the whole point of there needing to be designated “safe spaces” is that our culture’s “normal” is the promotion and maintenance of rape culture. and that this is exactly what pappa is doing would be obvious to anyone who’s bothered to read the research papers linked upthread.
FFS it’s not a joke.
hankmoody:
Yeah, ’cause he does rape jokes, man, and they are all, like edgy and stuff. And funny. Besides, he defended Daniel Tosh threatening a woman with gang rape, yeah, totes cool, bros.
Jesus Christ. Whatever the fuck you think of comedians doing rape jokes had nothing at all to do with someone saying they’d like to rape a woman because they find her annoying.
If you have a brain rattling around in that skull, try to use it.
Ing wrote:
I meant it’s not a threat in the sense that ‘I will carry it out’, because I can’t claim to know that. It’s definitely a threat in the sense of ‘I’m saying this because I want you to stop and I know this will upset you’, because that’s unambiguous.
I think they’re two different things.
And those people were wrong, too. Again, who decides what constitutes an offence worthy of having your details revealed?
Listen, hankmoody. Do you understand why we object to this joke? It’s not because it’s “offensive” and it’s not because it’s “dark.” Do you have even the slightest actual understanding of the context of people being irritated with this asshole? And besides, who are these people you think ?
That may very well be. But it doesn’t change my point; if they’re looking for an excuse, we don’t have to hand it to them.
We’re going to have a hard time selling, “Group X was wrong to reveal [formerly anonymous FtB individual]’s information even though we revealed [some other formerly anonymous person]’s personal information!”
@A Hermit
“They’ve noticed the thread is being watched and are getting all self righteous. Apparently suggesting people rape women is a funny, funny joke but suggesting it might be a good idea to find out who is the person making the rape joke/threat is “ignorant and terrible…” ”
Very few of the individual members who are not the same person as Pappa and should not be lumped in with anything he posts found it at all funny. And yes, actively attempting to destroy someone’s life because they said something stupid on the internet is DEFINITELY ignorant and terrible. Because at the end of the day, that’s all this is, as much as the PZ chucklefuck bandwagon here would like to make a mountain out of a molehill, this is quite obviously a case of a person making a very stupid, very poorly thought out comment that anyone with so much as a pair of neurons to rub together ought to be able to see is not an actual threat of any kind.
Erista, Wowbagger, I came here specifically to thank you for providing a voice of reason in the witch-hunt being mounted here. I’m probably throwing you guys under the bus in the process, but thanks and keep thinking for yourselves.
Er, my post 208 should have indicated @201
Ing,
I think Erista is making a cultural and situationist argument like the one you were making in the other thread. I think those kinds of arguments are almost always correct.
I don’t have a personal stake in the matter — it won’t be me whose powerword is released. But I think Erista accurately understands how these dynamics work.
Where did anyone “actively attempt to destroy someone’s life?”
Who the fuck is mounting a witch-hunt?
Look, actually read the thread, you monumental dumbass.
comeatmebro—If the upsets members of rationalia spent half as much time condemning the original post as they do getting offended at how other people (understandably, since, you know, they’re not really doing that much condemning) view them as a result. Sigh. Honestly. The best way to show that one isn’t a terrible person is to quickly, loudly, and decisively distance yourself from such an awful statement. You can bet the regulars here that you think so little of would have done so if it had happened here.
Erista:
I understand that. This wouldn’t be the first misstep Martin has made. I think making it clear, as people have done in this thread, that no one is terribly interested in outing anyone, is the best we can do.
The thing is, Erista, is that the rape joke people will take Martin’s comment and completely isolate it from the thread and run with it, in order to make inflated claims and to fuel their supposed outrage. There’s nothing to be done about that, because if it weren’t for Martin’s comment, they’d focus on a different one and do the same damn thing. It’s what they do. We’ve seen it time and time again.
I wish I could offer you better consolation.
The first thing that struck me was how they reminded me of the fuckwits I had to put up with in High School (Oh, there’s a bad flashback). I wonder if any of them have graduated (figuratively or literally) yet.
And what’s with those childish and idiotic animated emoticons – I didn’t think there was anything worse than emoticons rendered with full-color graphics until I guess someone thought “how do we make these worse?” then decided to animate them.
Along with the “level of discourse” the overall picture that site paints comes across as smug, adolescent, self-congratulatory – the sort of teenagers that have truly convinced themselves that they are smarter than the entirety of the adult world. Best hope is that someday some of them grow up enough to find this part of their lives extremely embarrassing.
evidence to the contrary is linked upthread. inform yourself or be guilty of willful ignorance. your choice.
The link didn’t go to any one comment so I didn’t get the connection.
It’s a moot point thought since I had missed Martin’s comment and we’re not arguing on the same thing. I think Papasmurf here had a good chance of violated terms and should be reported, if the host serve feels that it warrants releasing the info to the police that is fine and different from what martin said.
Is it worse than rape?
@Cipher
#106:
“Is there any way that anyone knows of to find out “Pappa”‘s actual identity? For general public safety’s sake, this information ought to be out there. People may want to know if he’s in their area, or what public events or functions he might be attending. ”
I’ve read the thread, it appears you may have missed some things. Now who’s the “monumental dumbass”?
this.
People like this are looking to silence people. They will find an excuse to justify it because they’re looking for one.
You because we established that ages ago.
No one is looking to destroy someone’s life and you’d know that if you read the damn thread. It’s not a “witch hunt”, either. FFS, try not to be such a Cupcake.
Really? Because that’s not the impression one gets from reading that thread. Perhaps you should spend more time with your “rape is funny, hardy-har-har” chucklefuck bandwagon, letting them know just how fucked up they are and just how much damage they happen to be doing.
Ing is right about all this. There’s no level of circumspection that will shield anyone from the bullshit. They will lie, distort, and harass no matter what. It sucks, but deal with it. Know that it’s real.
@Ing
Posting a fucking dumb comment on the internet about rape is clearly the same thing as actually raping someone. Are you fucking serious? There’s no way you’re actually this fucking stupid, I refuse to believe that someone who can put words together into coherent sentences can actually be this dumb.
You’re right cause I didn’t say that.
comeatmebro, being outed on the internet only “destroys” people’s lives in two circumstances. the first one is if someone used the pseudonymity of the internet to commit a crime; the other is if the person is either a closeted minority or speaking truth to power and therefore needs to stay anonymous for their protection.
there’s no evidence that pappa falls under either of these categories. so at worst, he’d be deeply embarrassed and inconvenienced. his life would not be destroyed.
Well. This makes me glad that I haven’t read Rationalia in years, and cancelled my RatSkep account at about the same time.
I think that’s when I stared reading here at Pharyngula, actually.
Thanks to all the regulars who have taught me so much about how to be a decent human being.
You are. It was one person, one comment. It was not supported by anyone else. Learn to comprehend what you read, fuckwit.
It’s just great to know you find that much more upsetting than your chucklefuck bandwagon making rape jokes.
comeatmebro, shut the fuck up just long enough to read the research on the topic of bigoted humor that was linked upthread. that way, you’ll not look like an ignorant dolt when responding to other people’s comments.
comeatmebro, you apparently think one person making a comment about trying to find out the identity of a poster, then a bunch of people saying “well, no,” constitutes a and “actively attempting to ruin [the stupid fucker’s] life.”
All I have to say to you is this: 1.) Get some goddamn perspective. It looks an awful lot like you have no fucking idea what a ruined life looks like.
2.) Get your dumb ass educated, because you clearly don’t actually understand what these kinds of jokes do.
As has been noted, that was one comment.
Read comment 209 for some excellent advice about extrapolating to an entire community based on what one or a few people wrote.
I agree that some are certainly inclined to do this (as, well, it’s already happening). Pretty much the only consolation I have is knowing that if/when that happens, I’ll be able to fight back against it. I will be able to say, “No, this shows that what you’re saying isn’t the case.”
It may not do much or any good for the person who is isolating and running, but at least I’ll be able to say it, and maybe people on the fence will be able to hear it. I don’t know.
@jadwhawk
well a third one is if they are engaged in behavior that is illegal or embarrassing enough to destroy their rep. Like posting someone visiting Ashley Madison or something like that.
“there’s no evidence that pappa falls under either of these categories. so at worst, he’d be deeply embarrassed and inconvenienced. his life would not be destroyed.”
Oh gee, as long as we’re only “embarrassing and inconveniencing” people in real life over dumb things said on the internet, go right the fuck ahead.
I’ve never seen such a concentrated mass of slimy pricks in one place, and I’ve seen footage of the Republican National Convention.
I am fine with this. :)
Is it worse than threatening rape?
You seem to have some selective reading problems.
Maybe you should get that checked out.
Rawnaeris:
Thank you. Your contributions on threads such as these hasn’t gone unnoticed. I’ve appreciated every one.
your attempt at goalpost-shifting has been duly noted.
your attempt at attaching a position to me that I do not hold has also been noted.
try harder.
@ Cipher, Brownian
Make up your minds you idiots. Either one person posting on a forum IS or ISN’T representative of the whole place. PZ came out and lumped everyone on Rationalia in with Pappa for “condoning rape” and it seems a good number of people here take the same fucking point of view. You don’t get to sling that sort of shit and then act fucking surprised when ONE POST by one of you fucking morons gets you all lumped in just the same.
@Everyone (including me) who is pointing out post #106:
It’s one post in a thread of over 200 posts. It’s easy to miss/misread/forget/etc one post in all of that. I myself didn’t see it until it was pointed out to me elsewhere. So let’s be calm if someone doesn’t know about it.
@Erista
“It’s one post in a thread of over 200 posts. It’s easy to miss/misread/forget/etc one post in all of that. I myself didn’t see it until it was pointed out to me elsewhere. So let’s be calm if someone doesn’t know about it.”
Pappa’s post was one in hundreds of thousands on Rationalia.
and considering that this is the person who whined about lumping upthread, this is highly hypocritical. or just stupid.
pretty sure I mentioned illegal. Or am I misunderstanding your comment?
So, is that the tu quoque fallacy, or are you admitting that you were wrong as fuck to throw your little tantrum about a that was one comment long?
Erista:
And you won’t be alone. The Horde is right there with you.
So making (bad) rapejokes on the Internet is enough to destroy someone’s life?
I may be misunderstanding something here, but wouldn’t the answer then be for people not to make bad rape jokes on the Internet?
What’s that saying? Can’t handle the heat? Get out of the bakery.
Well if he has admin duty then yes he is the fucking face of it, dumbass.
You’re not exactly providing a strong counter opinion that it’s a cornucopia of reason and empathy.
comeatmebro #234
One person suggested outing Pappa. Nobody seconded the motion and several people said it was a bad idea and gave reasons why it was a bad idea.
I’m getting the idea you’re trolling. Want to try to convince me you aren’t?
Caine,
Yeeeaaah… I fully agree with you. I mean, I know I’m not perfect, I know I have blindspots too, but this? This is so unself-conscious as to make me wince, just remembering it.
Most of the coworkers who I made friends with at that job were women. It was distressing how many of them were treated. Boyfriends, coworkers, whatever. One friend of mine got a guy to help her move her things. He started in on the inappropriate sexual talk in the car. She felt helpless there, because there was nobody else to help her move her stuff.
There were of course controlling boyfriends, too. And the at-work sexual harassment. I’m glad I didn’t have to deal with that in person, of course. But I hate that my friends, and many of my other co-workers, had to put up with it. I was explicitly told that the reason I had at least one of these friends was because I was the only guy there who WASN’T trying to get in her pants.
That part isn’t about me: It’s to make the point that if I was in the minority… then what the hell does THAT mean?!
@jadehawk
I skimmed and phrased it wrong but was pointing out there’s embarrassing but not illegal things that could hurt people. Like a gaysexfinder account or the like.
comeatmebro:
You still haven’t addressed the crucial question several people have asked you. Why, if you didn’t find the rape thread funny, are you here, jumping all over us, rather than jumping all over the morons in your own chucklefuck bandwagon who think it’s approriate to make rape jokes?
Rationalia is a place where such comments go supported and largely unchallenged. where are the commenters calling out pappa’s support of rape culture? where are the commenters telling him to stop? where are the commenters showing the research of the effects of rape jokes?
what there IS plenty of are further jokes at the expense of skepckicks, though.
so you’re bullshitting when you’re saying that PZ did what you’re trying to do here.
@comeatmebro/242 Yes, it is. But I’m not a part of that forum, so I’m not making comments on the forum about the objectionable joke. I considered joining so as to make comments, but ultimately decided that it wouldn’t do any good and would likely tire me out.
The consensus here is firm: if anything report to Server Host. if they view it as a violation or feel it’s bad enough that it deserves to be reported THEY can “out” him.
Though you know it is odd that apparently people are shitting themselves over being tied to an ‘innocent little joke’.
Use of quotation marks implies a verbatim quotation from the source. Maybe you can point out where PZ said that everyone on Rationalia is involved in “condoning rape” (as Pappa certainly is), but I don’t see it.
He did say that “the forum” thinks rape is a joke. That may be an unfair generalization, inasmuch as you read it to mean that all Rationalia posters enjoyed the joke, as at least one poster there criticized the joke unequivocally. But a much larger number found it hilarious. And Pappa does have an admin role of some kind, as PZ pointed out.
Contrast that with what you’re pointing to here, where one poster suggested making Pappa’s personal info generally known, and the rest of the commentariat shouted him down. Are these situations really equivalent?
Did you appreciate the joke? If not, did you register your distaste, in no uncertain terms? If not, why are you criticizing our reaction when you haven’t reacted at all?
@Caine/245
:D
Louis CK responds to your hyper-sensitive garbage:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/louis-c-k-
ah, yeah, I suppose that’s true
Let me be firm. Louis CK made an ass of himself. He’s fucking over sensitive to people criticizing comedians.
I have a favorite comment from the indignant rationalians!
Some gomer made a crude rape joke that dehumanizes the skepchicks, and one is all offended because pointing out that it’s ugly and repulsive and barbaric dehumanizes them. Hilarious!
Louis CK is not smarter or more right or a better authority than the actual research on this topic. try again.
I wonder if now I should condemn PZ for not moderating his comment threads for proper “rational discourse,” and then at the same time condemn the the entire freethoughtblogs.com community for PZ’s inaction.
@hankmoody
IRONY. Thank you for stepping into it though.
When you do it it’s bad, when I do it it’s harmless.
Is co meating anything like cow orking?
“Another purportedly rational forum that thinks rape is a joke.”
There’s the direct quote. According to PZ, the entire forum thinks rape is a joke. A defamatory and ignorant generalization of a forum with 1000+ registered members based on a stupid comment by one person. I’ll admit, it was wrong of me to stoop to the low bar that PZ set here and lump you all in with Martin’s slimy attempts at organizing a dox drop. I will henceforth refrain from stooping to the low bar that PZ Meyers has set.
Louis CK’s brand of humor is definitely relevant to this discussion.
Also I’m not an admin. And gave no indication of wanting to do anything on my part to hurt you. And actually was kidding etc etc.
Yet somehow you see a problem with this and not with Papa. Thank you that’s just what I wanted to demonstrate.
PZ, 260:
Me, 191:
I guess I’m a frickin psychic.
Or is it just way too easy to predict the behaviour of empathy-deficient entitled perspectiveless fuckwits?
HOW DARE YOU SAY WE ALL AGREE WITH THIS! NOW STEP BACK WHILE I DEFEND IT!!!!
I understood fully your attempt at humor and irony. My points still stand, however.
Peterhearn, I know this is hard for you to understand, but try and keep up with me, okay? Comedians are not the authoritative source for how rape jokes (which, interestingly, this shit really wasn’t) can affect individuals and society. Rape survivors are a pretty good source for how they can affect individuals; you’re interacting with several of them right now. And there are people who actually study how they can affect society! Here’s a good start.
I wonder if you should condemn your community’s response to a crude rape joke. Have you done that yet?
Are you contending that this thread amounts to “condemning” the Rationalia community? To me, it sounds like we’re condeming a rape joke and the people who thought it was funny. If you think it was funny, I would be hard-pressed to say you don’t deserve what you’re getting. If you don’t, the poeple who need to hear that are at Rationalia, not here.
Have you condemned Pappa for posting the rape joke, comeatme? If not, why not? Why is it more important for you to lash out at us?
No it doesn’t. It properly displays your hypocrisy and what I was saying about looking for an excuse.
You don’t want to talk, you want to silence and you’ll find any reason to do so. Admit it, if I hadn’t made a joke you’d just be looking for someone else.
Oh and BTW is what I said as bad as saying it might be ok to rape someone?
hankmoody, I’ve asked you some questions above. Please answer them.
Hankmoody,
Do please explain to me the humor value in “Would it really be immoral to rape this specific group of women, who are fairly well known and have their real names associated with the name of their blog?”
Since you apparently think there’s some humor in it. No, don’t rely on Louis CK to explain it for you. You want to make your point, make it yourself. Quote if necessary, but do it yourself.
not in the slightest. and even if it were, it would still in no way refute the research cited above. Meaning, Louis CK is incorrect. You are silly and incorrect for thinking his comments are a meaningful argument, when actual research could be discussed instead.
Man, I just went back over the Rationalia (I went there before PZ’s post wen up after Surly Amy linked to it_, and the ratio of comments condemning the rape joke vs the number of people condemning PZ/Martin is depressingly skewed towards condemning PZ/Martin.
I have the saaaaadz.
@Erista
See what I mean. Looking for an excuse. If anything they’re probably mad Martin and PZ are men so they can’t do the same rape silencing.
@PZ Myers: Do you really think this comment thread constitutes rational discourse?
@Josh
I have repeatedly stated here and there that I think it was stupid, but I’ve also seen Pappa’s posts on there for a number of years and know that a lot of people there have met him in person and consider him to be a nice person. I absolutely do not condone what he said, but in the greater context I recognize it as a comment made in extremely poor taste, but ultimately nothing more than that. He made a fucking mistake, he posted something stupid on the internet. I don’t disagree with people wagging their fingers at him for that, but claiming that the entire forum thinks rape is a joke is WRONG. Attempting to get his personal information to “out” him in real life is WRONG.
@hankmoody
People had a disagreement and talked it out, found the point of disagreement and reached a synthesis of positions different from either previous starting position.
Yes. The fact that you are not part of that discourse is due to user error.
Did the majority of other commenters in that thread condemn Pappa’s words and seek to distance themselves from him, or did they circle the wagons and say “it’s only a rape joke ha ha and Skepchicks are whiny”?
Hankmoody—have you condemned Pappa for posting that joke or any of the commenters supporting it?
An admin make a vile rape joke, followed by several pages of comments, the majority of which agree, approve, and amplify on the joke? I think it’s perfectly fair to characterize the culture of the forum as being pro-rape.
The people there could change that, you know…by like calling out the thugs who spew that kind of slime and making it clear that it will not be endorsed. Instead, they’re now fortifying themselves behind a wall of misogyny. Not impressed.
Lying is wrong
Do you think that rationalia thread even fucking approaches it?
And exactly how rational does one have to be when discussing a pack of douchebags haw-hawing over rape jokes – especially given the current climate of sexist douchebaggery?
That’s one reading. It’s hardly the only fair one. And you still haven’t addressed how what you claim PZ has done is equivalent to what you have done here, where you inflated one post which was quickly repudiated to represent the whole Pharyngula commentariat, and PZ reacted to a post by a Rationalia admin that was met with almost exclusive approval.
“Defamatory” is a legal term with a precise definition. It refers to published, untrue statements that cause quantifiable (i.e. financial) harm. Do you have any evidence of that?
The generalization is based on the forum’s actual response to the joke. In what sense is it ignorant?
You’re not really suggesting that all those members are still active, are you? I’m a registered member, and I haven’t posted in years.
Which, again, was met with almost universal approval.
See above.
Yep, PZ is rational, and shows you and your ilk to be irrational egotistical monsters incapable of thinking clearly. You deliberately hurt folks, and fail to apologize for your behavior. That type of behavior isn’t expected from mature, rational, adults.
I have a request from all of you who are here form Rationalia:
Can you please go over to that thread and change the comment ratio a wee bit so that it’s less skewed towards condemning PZ/Martin and contains more condemning of rape jokes?
Pretty please?
. . . please?
But you know, you really can’t blame Martin too much. Look how quickly the narrative has morphed. Now it’s Martin AND PZ looking to drop dox. They’re definitely trying it!
In what…under an hour we’ve had history rewritten? History that’s recorded in text no less.
@Ing: I see an entire thread full of ad hominem attacks. Attacks not condemned by PZ Myers. Re: PZ blog post: Pot;kettle.
@PZ Meyers
“the majority of which agree, approve, and amplify on the joke”
[citation needed]
I’m disappointed to see a noted atheist doing the sort of fact-twisting that I’ve come to expect from the religious crowd.
I just did a search on the Rationalia thread. Nobody with the names of comeatme or hankmoody condemned Pappa for making a “joke.” They’re happy to come here and whine at us for being mean to Pappa and/or Rationalia but their complaints are purely one-sided.
@Erista
They won’t because they agree with it. They’re mad that people are criticizing them, those people must be silenced.
They are wright so we must be wrong. If they can’t find a reason why we are wrong and they have the moral highground it’s simply because they haven’t found it…it must be there, because they ARE right.
hankmoody and comeatme—have you condemned Pappa for posting that joke? If not, why not?
A) Define Ad hom and provide examples
B) Lying is wrong.
And I see utter and total stoopidity and irrationality by a blog. And it isn’t Pharyngula, but a blog too caught up in their own hysteria to say “enough of this shit, which is WRONG and hurts people”.
@Josh
I will repost for your reading convenience, but this is the last time.
“I have repeatedly stated here and there that I think it was stupid, but I’ve also seen Pappa’s posts on there for a number of years and know that a lot of people there have met him in person and consider him to be a nice person. I absolutely do not condone what he said, but in the greater context I recognize it as a comment made in extremely poor taste, but ultimately nothing more than that. He made a fucking mistake, he posted something stupid on the internet. I don’t disagree with people wagging their fingers at him for that, but claiming that the entire forum thinks rape is a joke is WRONG. Attempting to get his personal information to “out” him in real life is WRONG.”
If you are incapable of reading this after I have posted it twice, there is nothing more I can do to help you.
@comeatme
Read the thread for five minutes; you’ll see more people defending the joke than disapproving. There’s your fucking [citation], O Mighty Skeptic.
Well, there is that. Tepid condemnation. “Yes, but”. Just poor taste. That’s all. Not horrendous and vile. Besides Pappa’s a Good Guy.
Go take a nap in a deep lake.
@comeatmebro
So no you haven’t.
You also haven’t in your play house. So stop lying.
in that case you should do something about your vision problems. or your understanding of the term ad hominem
On the first page, comments #11 and #13 are the only ones that register a protest, out of 15. Majority approve and add to the fun; one exaggerates by making a gang rape “joke”. That’s not fact twisting, those are the facts.
I’m not going to dig deeper into the sewer pile.
And yes, a lot of people here are registering scorn at the scumbags on your forum, hankmoody. They are right to do so. Do you really want to pretend that calling people who make rape jokes mean names is worse than people making rape jokes in the first place? Odd priorities you’ve got there.
I encourage more people here to call the misogynists you shelter assholes.
Seriously, explain what is funny about speculating whether it would be okay to rape one or more of the women (and a couple of men) who contribute to skepchick.
If you post there, perhaps you can tell us if there are any specific Skepchicks whom it would be more or less immoral to rape, on account of their overwhelming annoyingness. If no one has been mentioned by name, perhaps you can speculate as to why not.
Bug_Girl (they only pseudonym on there)
Maria
A B Kovacs
Elyse
Sam
Jen
Amanda
Amy
Debbie
Mindy
Heina
Jacqueline
Daniela
Felicia
Will
Nicole
Mary
Rebecca
For those wondering why there isn’t a louder condemnation of Pappa’s comments, I can’t speak for everyone there (because, once again, we’re different people and not one Borg-like entity to be lumped together as all thinking rape is a joke), but my guess is that it’s a matter of how close-knit the community is. Many people there have met others in person, a lot of people have met Pappa in person. As he is a real person to many there, and not just words on a screen, they are more likely to understand that while it was clearly in exceptionally poor taste, it is not characteristic of Pappa and likely just something he posted without turning his fucking brain on. I’ve said a lot of dumb things in my time on the internet too, very few of which are actually representative of who I am as a person. The majority of people on the forum have agreed that it wasn’t funny, in poor taste, a stupid post to make, etc. But in the greater context of who he is as a person we understand it to be just an exceptionally dumb thing for him to say. His own WIFE posted to say that she thought it made her cringe.
How nice for you.
Now, I’ve already said that I’m not in favor of that happening. Please don’t take what I’m about to say as an endorsement of it happening. Like Erista, I really value an internet culture that tries to respect pseudonymity. But hear me out, okay?
The Skepchicks are real people. They have been harassed and threatened with rape from a variety of sources for quite some time now. They have very legitimate reasons to feel unsafe – even more than other women in similar demographics. And we have a lot of reason to feel unsafe. With me so far? Now, I know it’s not my place to ask you this, so don’t feel pressured to answer me, but just keep the answers in your head: do you know what it feels like to live in legitimate danger of being raped? do you know what it feels like when you already have been? I do. And in that context, knowing that someone, somewhere is asking whether it would really be immoral to rape me – me personally – and not knowing who that person was – whether he was the guy looking at me in the coffee shop, the guy sitting behind me on the bus, the guy in the car driving past just a little too slowly… Do you at least understand why someone might have the impulse to find out who that guy is?
Alright, alright, I’ll go start counting . . .
Page 1
Number of posts that condemn the joke: 3
Number of posts that do not condemn the joke: 12
Page 2
Number of posts that condemn the joke: 8
Number of posts that do not condemn the joke: 4
Number that seemed to both: 1
Do I have to count more? I started this and now don’t want to do it anymore . . .
I agree. I’m glad you think that.
Now if he were a really nice guy, he’d retract and sincerely apologize. Not a notpology, either, but an open recognition that you are quite right, and that that was an incredibly stupid thing for a “nice guy” to say.
@comeatmebro
You’re not very good friends.
You’re also idiots for making an idiot your admin.
There is the mature way out by apologizing, and if an admin, deleting the offending post. Then there is the irrational and juvenile method of doubling down and defending that mistake. Your choice cricket. Why not get he who must do the right thing, to do the right thing. Until then, your post is lies and bullshit, defending someone against stupidity they should act to change.
Shoot, I messed up the numbers for page 2. they should be
Page 2
Number of posts that condemn the joke: 4
Number of posts that do not condemn the joke: 8
Number that seemed to both: 1
You’re bullshiting us.
Those dumb things you did are representative of you as a person. Sorry if you don’t like what you see in the mirror.
“Judge me based on who I am! Not what I say or do!
Judge me not on how I act and I’ll do the same to you!”
there you have it. pappa is nice and had a nice wedding and his little contribution to the rape culture is endearing.
but we’re Teh Ebil for criticizing a forum where comments like the above quote are normal
@PZ
“Now if he were a really nice guy, he’d retract and sincerely apologize. Not a notpology, either, but an open recognition that you are quite right, and that that was an incredibly stupid thing for a “nice guy” to say.”
I don’t think he’s been on in several hours, but I suspect he will realize that the comment he made was in poor taste and apologize for having made a dumb comment.
I don’t suppose you’re planning to retract your claim that the forum as a whole finds it funny, while we’re on the topic of people apologizing for stupid things they said?
How sweet.
This is also a close-knit community. Many people here have met me, and many more have met each other.
If I made such a “joke”, I would be eviscerated publicly, no matter how nice they thought I’d been before. There would be a massive exodus of people I respect, because they’d see it as a serious betrayal of principles that are held very dear here.
Apparently, those principles are not shared with rationalia.
Oh yes we’ll get right on that.
Fucking idiot.
Maybe you assholes should extend your infinite empathy for Papa to the people he talked about raping you stupid fucking loads of shit.
comeatmebro wrote:
While there’s a certain amount of loyalty that can be (rightly or wrongly) ascribed to the sense of tribalism in an online community, there are some things that no ‘tribe’ should accept from one of their members – not, at least, if they don’t want to be called on it as Rationalia have been over this.
I’ve met PZ in person, and if for some stupid reason he posted a rape ‘joke’ I’d be amongst the hundreds of regulars here taking a number to tear him a new one over it.
@comeatmebro
Clean your own fucking backyard
@Nerd of Redhead
I absolutely agree that he should apologize. What he probably intended as an “off the deep end” attempt at black humor was truly in poor taste. I don’t agree with deleting the thread, but I am generally against covering things up and pretending they never happened. I am also not a member of the admin team there, and that ultimately would be their decision whether I agree with it or not.
The majority of the participants in that thread seemed to have no problem with it. Even now, many people are doubling down and insisting that it was a justifiable remark. “Pappa” isn’t apologizing yet, and if he does, it is only after he was publicly excoriated on other fora, this one and Skepchick.
I’m not going to apologize for an accurate characterization.
@comeatmebro
BTW, link to where you posted disapproval, to Papa? Otherwise I’m going to assume you’re lying.
tribalism, therefore one shouldn’t call out things that support rape-culture?
weak.
also, the “real person” thing is interesting. are we only suppose to criticize and condemn actions by non-humans? the “real person” schtick doesn’t actually work. not unless you think that “real people” aren’t the cause of every single social problem in the world (which raises the question: if not real people, then who?).
You realize “I always thought he was a nice guy” is often said after someone does something heinous, right?
comeatmebro,
“In poor taste” isn’t actually the end of this. You know that, right? People have provided citations in this thread as to the effects of “jokes” like that. I provided a quote above. We have more resources if you need them. But that “joke” was not just tasteless – it was destructive. It did harm. You need to stop minimizing that.
I give internet happy cookies to soul_biscuit who is posting things that make me feel better on the rationalia post. Yay!
@PZ
“Apparently, those principles are not shared with rationalia.”
I don’t know how you people roll here, but I know that Rationalia is generally a very laid-back atmosphere, the majority of posts being anything but serious discussion. I expect very few of the posts I make there to be taken seriously by anyone. It is out of that not at all serious atmosphere that Pappa took the black humor thing too far, and, well, here we are all chewing each other new assholes over it. If I thought for a minute that Pappa genuinely condoned rape, this would be an entirely different discussion. If he made the comment he did in a serious discussion atmosphere, that would change things as well. Ultimately, as poor as his taste was in making that comment, I recognize it as simply having taken black humor MUCH too far, in a forum that doesn’t really take itself seriously most of the time.
Doesn’t this qualify as major league “feeding of the trolls who haven’t ever seen a woman naked outside the pages of ‘Barely Legal’ and probably won’t ever without paying a professional,” statistically speaking?
Also, I just looked at the last page of that thread. The majority are still approving of the rape joke, and more are making light of it. “Someone rape me”? Yeah, trivialize it more.
I think your group is doing its best to reinforce my point.
It was not poor taste of black humor it’s “I don’t like what those women are saying so I think it might be ok to rape them to shut them up, amiright guys?”
And you idiots said “yeah maybe dude”
How the fuck does “Someone needs to rape those bitches to shut them up” come up in a ‘laid back atmosphere’ Do you even listen to yourself?
comeatmebro: the “just joking” defense doesn’t cut it, guy.
@Ing
This is not my username there, and due to the stated intention of at least one person here to try to find personal information for a member on Rationalia, I have no interest in telling anyone here who I am there.
We don’t do gendered insults here, Cupcake. Quite the difference between our chucklefuck bandwagon and yours, eh?
However, most posts in that thread at rationalia still give me the sadz. *sigh*
Ing was right that people weren’t going to rush over and change the comment ratio. SAAAAAAADZ
You’re wrong in just about everything you said.
Which he knows because he got pissed at me for baiting him with it.
you didn’t read the research papers linked above. bad form.
FYI, whether your buddy “genuinely condoned” rape or not, he’s contributing to an environment in which rape happens more, rapists feel safer, and rape victims and women experience unneccessary physical stresses. and no, that’s not “wnining”, that’s what the research you didn’t read indicates.
What Ing said. Rape is not a light-hearted subject for a casual atmosphere.
You’re lying again
Oh btw anyone else love this
“Martin asked if there was a way to drop dox on them== Martin is trying to drop dox!!!!”
“Papa asked if it’s ok to rape women== Papa is most definitely not saying it’s ok to rape women! Why would you say that!”
Your double standard is showing.
one of the papers cited above even suggests that “jokes” have worse effects than the same sentiment expressed in seriousness. interesting, no?
I mean really, anyone who uses the “just a joke” defense needs to walk East until their hat floats. How the f##k does this qualify as civil, appropriate, “I’m not calling the cops” sort of discourse?
As has been pointed out already, it’s also a matter of the values that community shared. I am with the others: if PZ posted something as vile as Pappa did, and failed to apologize and retract it, I would drop this blog like a hot potato. Even if he did apologize I would still be cautious and would start seeking out sites where I could be reasonably certain that the blogger isn’t the type of person to make other people’s physical safety the butt of a nasty joke.
Apparently Rationalia’s values suck. Utterly. They see nothing wrong with threatening misogynist language aimed at a publicly identifiable group of mostly women. Therefore we deduce, reasonably, with ample supporting evidence, that Rationalia’s values are at least in part misogynist.
They said the same thing about Joe Paterno. So?
I have no idea whether it’s characteristic of Pappa. But since the majority of comments there revel in the “joke” which is really a threat, and fail to call it out, it’s obviously “characteristic” for more than one of the commenters there. Which supports my earlier point about the truly heinous values of that particular community.
That’s weird, because I’ve said some dumb things on the internet, but I disagree that they aren’t representative of me as a person. If they weren’t I wouldn’t write them. I don’t see how it’s possible to first conceptualize, then verbalize, then type something in a semi-public forum, and NOT have it be representative of who I am. That’s just not how human brains work. Even pretending to be someone I’m not (like when I posted in drag for a week) reveals something of who I am.
A majority? Citation needed. Links please, I am not going to sully my brain going in there. You want to defend it, you provide the evidence.
I do not care what OTHER people have to say about it. Until he retracts the statement and apologizes without caveat, the statement stands and is representative of who he is and what he was thinking at the time he wrote it.
Slimy weaselly cowardly lot you all are, in the end. Don’t want to be held responsible for your own words, don’t want your pals to be held responsible for their words either. How dare you call yourselves rational.
He should apologize AND retract the 100% of the statement. And YOU should apologize for defending him before he did so.
I want you to explain precisely where the humor is in the statement.
This is a laid back environment, if you knew Martin like we did you would know he wasn’t serious.
I don’t want to read that thread anymore :(
I just want to repeat this, for emphasis, because I doubt any of Pappa’s defenders are going to give it a serious go and I want the record to show what a cowardly bunch they really are.
I want you to explain precisely where the humor is in the statement.
@PZ, Ing
“comeatmebro: the “just joking” defense doesn’t cut it, guy.”
I’m not saying it makes it OK. I agree with you that it isn’t a light-hearted subject for a casual atmosphere, and as I have repeatedly stated, I believe that a sincere apology from Pappa is well-deserved.
Some things are taboo for good reason. Pappa made an attempt at the wrong taboo, which was poorly thought out (if thought out at all) to say the least. I agree that it can be genuinely hurtful and I sincerely doubt that Pappa intended any harm from it.
As a member of Rationalia who has not at all condoned what Pappa said, I’m still waiting for an apology for being lumped into the generalization that the entire forum finds it funny.
Do you understand how naive you sound?
Really. It’s kind of sad.
I can think of 5 instances where I have done so in fact. The first two were the hardest, after that it’s like ripping off a scab.
You’re lying. No one does intends no harm when they say “bitch needs to be raped”.
Again with the selective reading. Go back to your bullshit forum and tell the rest of the posters that their behavior is so embarrassing you don’t want to be lumped in with their destructive asses. Don’t blame us for them making you look bad.
comeatmebro
Maybe some assholes need to be chewed. Rationalia’s laid-back atmosphere doesn’t excuse its posters from responsibility for what they say.
Erista (aka Eris)
Yay! How many calories do they have?
I haven’t posted there for a few years. It’s weird. It’s nice to see some of the people again, which makes it a bit uncomfortable to be over there just to call some of the posters out.
Just a bit.
I also repeat myself (because I suspect you’re hard of reading), how is it OUR fault that YOU are the idiots who made a fucking moron (by your own testimony) an admin!?
For anyone who is interested, some of the research papers are in post 77. I’m still looking to see if there are more.
Your contribution here has been nonstop apologetics for a guy who made a disgusting rape joke — a joke about raping some of my friends.
You don’t fucking deserve an apology.
@soul_biscuit/352 They have 0 calories and are 100% delicious~! Mwahahah!
@SallyStrange
” if PZ posted something as vile as Pappa did, and failed to apologize and retract it, I would drop this blog like a hot potato. ”
To my knowledge, he hasn’t been online since to apologize and retract it. I suspect that he will, however, as Rationalia is not the “All Pappa, all the time” channel, I would not go so far as to vilify the entire forum based on one person’s comments.
O RLY?
If you want a laid back atmosphere, tolerating people musing about raping other people is counter productive.
It’s like saying it’s an inclusive lounge…save that the bar tender hands out Klan pamphlets.
here’s a deal. you’ll get an apology when you start working towards making Rationalia a place in which rape-jokes and other bigotries are quickly and thoroughly condemned, rather than supported or left to stand unchallenged.
Since the toothpaste is out of the tube, let me just say that I stand by my earlier post, though I respect those who disagree with it. I will note, though, that a lot of the people who think I’m out of line for wanting to know who “Pappa” really is have also made it clear that they consider his sick rape joke more than just a joke, and some consider it legitimately threatening.
So yes, I would very much like to know the name of the person who thinks it would be perfectly fucking awesome to commit sexual assault against friends of mine, because he finds them “annoying.” I would like to know that they are safe, that he is nowhere in their proximity, and if he plans to be, that they can be forewarned so as to give him a wide berth.
I do not consider this an unreasonable or inappropriate thing to want to know.
@carlie
Nice reading comprehension. I said that Rationalia is laid-back, but have emphasized that even in that atmosphere, Pappa’s comment was inappropriate.
Good thing we have more than one data point then! Or do you not get that?
If he said this and everyone said “dude wtf” we would be all like “Yeah right on, fuck that guy!”
since this line of yours has already been refuted several times, I have to ask. are you having troubles with reading comprehension, are you not paying attention, or are you lying?
And what will you do when he doesn’t?
Be honest now.
Stop it. It’s your buddies’ fault that you look the way you do. Not ours. They’re doing this. Not us. You want it to change, tell your friends to act more like decent human beings. How do you not get this?
Shut your fucking whiny mouth and go OVER THERE and kick some verbal ass!
Really. How would it be different? Because I am having trouble how saying this:
as condoning the rape of one or more of those people.
You know, real people. People you might meet in person. People who get married and invite people to their weddings. People who are genuinely nice when you meet them in real life.
Really, I’m at a loss. How DO you read that as anything less than condoning rape?
And what’s funny about it?
*giggles forever*
@Martin Wagner/361
For some reason, all I can think is tooooooth paaaaaaaste!
My brain gets hooked by odd things.
I agree that it’s not inappropriate to want to know. Everyone just agrees that the way to do that, if at all, is to report to server host for violation. If they judge it to be illegal or in breach they then can deal with it.
Your language really tells on you. “Inappropriate?” In what context would that ever be appropriate? It’s all down-playing with you: “poor taste,” “too far,” “inappropriate.” Look—what he said is as vicious and ugly as you are trying very hard to pretend it isn’t. If you’d just deal with that we could make some progress.
Then why did you even bother to go on about how laid-back it was and how people like to kick back and joke around, if not to try and soften the edges of that rape joke?
comeatmebro –
You’ve said that you comment over there but won’t say under what name. Fine. Just for yourself, then, go count the number of comments you’ve made in that thread in the last three hours, and then count the number of comments you’ve made here in the last three hours. Then try to answer why it is that you’ve spent so much more time here defending a rape comment than trying to convince your own buddies that rape jokes are wrong.
no no no see saying “What’s worse than ten dead babies nailed to a tree? one dad baby nailed to ten trees” in a forum for new mothers is ‘inappropriate’. Saying “Wouldn’t it be good to rape those bitches to shut them up?” is repulsive, threatening, and thuggish.
I have to second Josh’s comments. Stop complaining here. Go patch up Rationalia — you guys are the one with the problem, not us.
Also, I just checked the new last page, and again…the majority are still making excuses for the joke, rather than repudiating it. You have a big problem.
@PZ
But they’re laid back! You know…like mobsters at a titty bar!
Wow I never thought I’d see anyone here present evidence. Kudos on that. All of the articles except the last one you have to pay to read, unfortunately. The last one is saying there is a relationship between hostile sexism and responses to sexist humor. I don’t disagree with that. Do you think getting offended is a proper or effective way to respond to sexist humor?
For those asking to see posts which have condemned or disagreed with Pappa:
“I might say I wish I could find the topic of rape to be humorous–but I don’t and I can’t.
Some of us, and we may be a minority, can’t. Not ever.”
In reply to the post above, “This.”
“Yeah, I cringed at the title and hoped there would be a play on words somewhere…”
” I’m pretty sure you’re not a rapist Pappa. I’m willing to bet that actually raping is so far from your mind that you see it as absurd. But how might this look to someone who doesn’t know you? ”
“I’d describe the OP as extremely boorish”
“I am not the best person in the world to lecture others on how they behave towards the opposite sex, for obvious reasons, but if I can see where this is inappropriate, then so should others.”
“Fucking hell – what a stupid joke Pappa.”
“I’d hardly call the OP either humourous or endearing. I’d call it “WTF?” in fact, and rather wish Pappa will make some kind of a statement on it tomorrow. “
Er, yes?
It pisses you off, so yes.
“Rape is generally immoral. But I think, since he is being so annoying, it might not be immoral to rape comeatmebro. I’m genuinely torn about this. It is entirely possible that it would be within the bounds of morality to rape comeatmebro.”
———-
The above should be read at simplistic satire, not a literal endorsement of anyone getting raped. Rape is literally torture. Nobody deserves to be raped, full stop.
The fact that such a disclaimer is necessary reveals how much of a lie it is to claim Pappa’s statement was anything but condoning of the rape of the various contributors at Skepchick, whom I shall name again just to reassert their humanity: Maria, Elyse, Sam, Jen, Bug_Girl, Amanda, Amy, Debbie, A B Kovacs, Mindy, Heina, Jacqueline, Daniela, Felicia, Rebecca, Will, Nicole, and Mary.
Nobody has said that no one objected. What has been said is that a majority of commenters approved.
Heck, I had to ban a misogynist and a homophobe on Pharyngula tonight. You could dig up two vile comments here if you tried — you’d also find far more people fighting back against their stupidity than approving it.
*climbs out of the lurker seats after reading the forum and having a good puke to boost the signal*
Jesus fuck guy, are you incapable of reading words?
We’re not JUST getting shitty about the comment. We’re also getting shitty about the effective lack of a “dude WTF and STFU” on the forum.
Quit wagging your fingers at us for pointing that out and go scold your damned forum for being shitty for the love of fuck.
*storms back into the lurker seats*
That’s some really pathetic passive-aggressive bullshit you’ve got there. All it really demonstrates is that you don’t pay much attention – it’s not like it really insults us.
Depends on what you mean by “getting offended.” One of the papers – I’m not sure which one right off the bat – showed that men who had hostile sexist attitudes tended to perceive sexist humor as indicating a social norm of tolerance for sexism. If that’s the case, as the study would seem to indicate, then a bunch of people saying “THIS IS SEXIST AND THAT IS BULLSHIT” would seem a useful response, right?
…and of course I type too slow. Damnit.
Why aren’t you telling him that, instead of arguing here. That doesn’t show your good intentions, which is getting the person who made the error to acknowledge it. Until he does, we can complain appropriate all we want. And we will. Get your act together.
@PZ
“Nobody has said that no one objected. What has been said is that a majority of commenters approved.”
YOU said that in your blog post when you lumped the entire forum into your generalization, claiming that we all find rape funny. TWO commenters made posts that could be seen as directly approving of what he said. Others have leapt to the defense of “anything goes” black humor in general, which I’m sure many of you will characterize as a direct approval of what Pappa said even if it actually isn’t. Others have said that it was a stupid thing to say. There’s an entire spectrum of different viewpoints going on there, almost as if it’s an entire forum of different individuals with differing opinions who think for themselves rather than rallying around a leader figure.
Is this a trick question?
It is.
And you continue to ignore the fact that your statement that Pappa does not “condone” the rape of Maria, Elyse, Sam, Jen, Bug_Girl, Amanda, Amy, Debbie, A B Kovacs, Mindy, Heina, Jacqueline, Daniela, Felicia, Rebecca, Will, Nicole, or Mary is a fucking lie.
I predict you will ignore this post too.
Nope, Niki M, you are adding to the signal ratio that the “joke” was not funny, in good taste, humorous, or decent.
At this point, there isn’t a “late to the party” on this topic. Anything that helps protest this ingrained misogyny is a worthwhile post.
@Sally
*winces*. I wouldn’t have gone there.
You’re wrong.
I’ve said a lot of dumb things in my time on the internet too. Some that I’m really ashamed of. You know what? They were absolutely representative of who I am as a person. I owned them, dealt with the self-knowledge, and, if I was ashamed of what I’d revealed about myself, I’ve tried to change.
Who was it said, it’s what you do when no one’s looking that reveals your true character? Same thing for what you say using an anonymous nym.
As for your blog friends being real people and not a borg, what do you think we are here? What do you think the Skepchicks are?
Who the fuck cares what a rape apologist like you thinks? Seriously? Who the fuck cares what someone who won’t take a rape joker to task and make him apologize thinks? Because you aren’t thinking. The apology from the rape joker is your only rational priority. Everything else is bullshit. And especially your apologetics here, which are utter and total irrational bullshit.
Why?
You know, I find it rather vexing that PZ’s post is even being put on the same level as Papa’s joke.
Papa’s joke normalizes rape and reinforces rape culture.
PZ’s post inclines people towards having a negative view of rationalia.
They are not on the same level at all.
Thank you to everyone who offered kind words & thumbs up about what happened w/my erstwhile friends yesterday. Your support is very much appreciated.
Irrational and unevidenced assertion *POOF* dismissed as the bullshit it is. Until you shut the fuck up, you can’t stop your bullshit. Take your views to Pappa, and shut the fuck up here. You trashed any credibility you had with your fuckwitted, stupid, and irrational behavior here. So, stop your behavior here.
@Sallystrange
Because I wouldn’t have even copypastaed the rape threat with his change.
A) they’ll go shit nuts with self justification now cooing hypocrisy, despite all you wrote
B) I just don’t think it’s appropriate even in return fire.
Page 3
1 post condemning the joke
14 that didn’t
Page 4
0 post condemning
15 that didn’t
Page 5
0 post condemning
15 that didn’t
BONUS: a post about “PZs minions … I can already smell the baboon shit”
Followed by several posts agreeing with the baboon-shit guy.
I’m done counting. They’re shits, all of them except for two or three voices, who are being completely ignored or outshouted.
Fuck those goddamn slime-y assholes. At least one of the Rationalia people used to be my friend. Sad, sad, sad.
@SallyStrange
No, it really isn’t. Some people feel that deciding what is “OK” and what isn’t for the subject of jokes sets a precedent that challenges any sort of off-color humor, and risks making anything that someone, somewhere takes offense to “off-limits” for jokes. I’m not firmly in that camp, I’m actually somewhat undecided on the logic there. However, what I do know is that taking this stance is decidedly different from directly agreeing with whatever joke is made.
If Pappa comes on and states that he actually does condone rape (when he has already stated that he doesn’t!) then you will be correct and I will be wrong.
And peterhearn, did you miss the part that I said about individuals?
Right now, at this moment, you’re interacting with a multiple rape survivor. I am telling you that this sort of shit – “joking” about whom it is acceptable to rape – directly does harm to me. No bullshit. That’s because, due to my personal attributes, the rapes committed against me are considered by some people – including but not limited to both of my rapists – to “not really count.” I had to give up some of my friends because it was literally both physically and psychologically unhealthy for me to be around people who make that sort of joke, and they refused to accept that. So when I react to this kind of “humor” – it’s not like I’m making a strategic choice to be “offended.” I’m being harmed, and I’m responding to pain. And in this case, I’m just splash damage – the actual targets of this joke have considerably more reason to react badly, and their friends – like PZ and Martin – have reason to defend them.
Actually, that’s exactly what it is. It’s a really wussy way of defending it, but it’s a defense nonetheless.
Again, why aren’t you over there scolding your fellow forum members instead of us?
While you’re at it, take this Passive-Agressive Bullshit Gold Medal for this whimpy bit of nonsense.
Oh and, it took a little while for you comment to sink in, Caine. *blushes* thanks :)
You’re done, comeatmebro. Go back to Rationalia and natter at them instead of us. You can come back after that rumored apology from “Pappa” appears. Show up before then, I’ll ban your sleazy ass.
Of course it is. A general statement approving “black humor,” in a context which makes it clear that “black humor” approves “rape jokes,” approves “rape jokes” directly. You don’t need a Venn diagram to see that.
Ok get this through your stupid fat bloated used condom bin you call a head: IT WAS NOT A FUCKING JOKE YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE.
If you replaced rape with “shot through the head” there would be no discussion, fucking reported as death threat.
Pappa stated that he thinks it is possible that it would okay to rape one of the contributors to Skepchick. He’s torn! But it’s within the realm of possibility.
Please explain how to read that as something besides condoning rape.
I agree with Stacy.
You don’t say things that are not representative of you as a person. They may not represent who you WANT to be, who you are STRIVING to be, but they do represent who you ARE, or the words would not have come into your head.
We all have both made offensive statements in the past and will say offensive things in the future. This isn’t because we are all acting as non-selves, but rather because we aren’t perfect. We’re all flawed and need to work towards getting better. The problem comes when we refuse to see our flaws because are enamored by the person we want to be. You can’t make progress if you think where you are at is perfect.
What Papa said was a reflection of who he is, and that is not a good reflection. But it is not a reflection of who Papa has to be; he is fully capable of gazing on his flaws and working to change them, if he so desires. He can change, but only if he works at it. If he insists there is no problem, there will be no improvement.
Should read “which makes it clear that ‘black humor’ includes ‘rape jokes’ . . . .” I’ll say this for Rationalia: they have an edit function.
@soul biscuit
Feature not a bug
@PZ
If you’re going to ban people here for disagreeing with you, go ahead and get it over with now. I’ll mark it in the same column as every pro-creationist Youtube video that disables comments to avoid the threat of those who would dare disagree.
I disagree. I won’t repeat it, though that’s probably cold comfort at this point.
They were going to do that already.
It was an attempt to drive home how frighteningly specific the implied threat was. The information is publicly available.
I’ll say this for Rationalia: the more I see of their advocates here, and the more I see them whine and rationalize and defend on that thread on their home turf, the less respect I have for them.
That was sad.
You were told the conditions of your permission to post here: that you take your outraged sense of injustice to the place where it would be more appropriately applied. You did not. Bye.
@Ing: “Who Are You?” “Skeptic’s Reckoning”
Fair enough. I’ll take it as an incentive to proofread.
comeatmebro, you are seriously going to take the banning=oh noes I lose my right to shit on someone else’s rug?
Fuck off, and come back if and when you can make sense.
There is an edit function here, too.
Think about what you type, preview, then post.
@soul biscuit
Keeps people from memory holing shit and retcon lying
@Ing: “Who Are You?” “Skeptic’s Reckoning”
Of course. Somehow I managed to maintain enough faith in humanity to forget that people do stuff like that sometimes.
This cannot save Pharyngula from my dreaded typos! O_O
I understand he’ll earn himself 72 virgins when he returns to Rationalia to brag about his glorious martyrdom.
[meta]
It takes a truly clueless person to disbelieve PZ when the banhammer is waved at them.
(Their loss)
Well this was a triumph…I’m making a note here ….huge success
precious. do you also have all sorts of creationists on your forum whom you can use to increase your “independent thinker” cred, or are you all just rallying around a leader figure by all together believing in Ebilution?
Comeatmebro:
Go ahead, cultivate your poor fee-fees about being banned, and please leave us alone. Thank you for doing so.
But really, I’ve been known to leave out entire sections of sentences, rendering my post unintelligible. Bad me!
oops. serves me right for commenting without refreshing first
Making rape threats as a “joke” is absolutely indicative of who you are as a person. The fact that you can go there at all indicates that you’re not a very nice person. There’s this thing called “empathy” that tends to keep decent people from treading all over other human beings for sport, and someone who would produce or support this level of nastiness is severely lacking in empathy.
This shit makes me sick to my stomach.
Why do people who get the PZ Red Stamp of Probationary Disapproval always feel the need to whine about being “banned for disagreeing” as if PZ didn’t just fucking tell them what would actually get them banned?
Is comprehending what was actually posted just that hard?
And I really need to stop reading that thread. It’s depressing me.
comeatmebro wrote:
He’s not banning you for disagreeing with him. People disagree with him all the time and remain unbanned. He’s threatenting to ban you for repeatedly making excuses and continuing to push the ‘but it was just a joke’ line.
Not the same thing.
Mine niether!
And its “tpyos”.
eh, at this point the thread will consist mostly of people congratulating themselves on PZ banning one of them.
At least we’ve now figured out comeatmebro’s pseudonym at rationalia: it’s wumbologist.
I’ve been a lurker here for quite a while, and I honestly have to say that the level of vitriol against women who point out misogyny and suggest courses of action to help mitigate it is nothing short of astounding.
The post PZ references at the top is just another example of the problem. It’s to the point that I’ve become ashamed to publicly identify with many of the communities I have classically identified with.
I once thought nerdy gamers were generally a pretty good group of people, and assumed that they would, as a whole, hold up to a higher standard than most people. I started to realize that they really weren’t worthy of this assessment years ago, and the sustained reaction of hatred by gamers to the ‘misogyny in video games’ kickstarter has just made me sick of people who identify as gamers as a whole.
It’s becoming the same with ‘skeptics’. The reaction against Rebecca Watson and Skepchicks has just made me entirely sick. I cannot imagine someone’s thought process that makes them think that this kind of behavior is okay, even on the internet.
That said, I have an honest question for the posters here, who probably have more experience with issues like this than I do. I don’t mean to derail the thread, and I’ll happily take this to another thread if it’s wrong to ask this question in here.
I count myself a feminist (even though I am a male), but I have been condemned by some female feminists I know, who claim that pornography is just as bad or worse than rape jokes, using some of the same rationales, while I defend it (not specific pornography, but rather, pornography as an abstract concept). I haven’t met many anti-porn feminists, but the ones I have talked with seem to use these same kind of arguments. However, I find myself rejecting them, in relation to that topic (though not in relation to rape jokes). How do I respond to these sorts of people? Where is the line drawn among the posters here? Am I in the minority here?
comeatmebro:
Oh, please. Pharyngula is a tight knit community, there are regular meet-ups, and if one of them made a rape joke, they’d feel the wrath of the entire community. Exactly what is your problem, bro, that you’d rather be here defending rape jokes than taking “pappa” to task?
Oh joy! Someone look and see if Wumbologist actually did a “dude not cool”
I’m betting not!
He did not. His only contributions over there are to complain about the “ignorant jackasses” at Pharyngula.
@Zarron
I believe Greta Christina did a nice piece or two on that. I’m going to see if I can find it.
Zarron, we have two open threads here. Since discussion of that one is likely to get nasty (not just at you!), I’d advise taking it to TZT, where people have the more involved, in-depth types of arguments. TET is our lounge, where we do other kinds of off-topic posts (the sweetness and fluff kind!). Suffice it to say for now that there are a variety of viewpoints among the regulars on the topic of porn.
comeatmebro:
So, he’s recently married. Do you think he’d appreciate someone making a comment about raping his wife because they found her annoying?
Come on. Get a sense of humor. Seriously you prudes.
@Zarron:
Found two so far
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/04/09/prostitution-is-not-sex-slavery/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/04/24/sex-work-and-a-catch-22/
Zarron, “porn in the abstract” may well be fine, but I think that usually, the folks in this community refer not to deal too much with abstractions, and deal more with realities on the ground. and in that context, porn (and sex work in general) is an extremely difficult concept. Because a lot of sex work, and pretty much all het mainstream porn, promotes extremely toxic and misogynist views of sex and women, and changing the culture to do away with that is arguably worthwile. OTOH, many sex workers are sex workers because they see that line of work as the best of their available options (and some privileged ones even enjoy those lines of work), and so it might not be the most beneficial thing to drive those lines of work underground or create an environment in which the workers themselves are viewed in a negative light.
IOW, porn and sex work are difficult issues with no clear solution to the problems therein. Bigoted humor OTOH presents no such difficulty, realistically speaking.
Please, can we take the porn discussion somewhere else? It’s not that I don’t want it to happen, I just think this thread still has value in its non-derailed form.
Skeptics: just as fucking big aisle of douches as Catholics, but with worse taste in clothing.
@Zarron
Your best bet is to stop defending porn, especially as an abstract concept. The problem with arguing abstract concepts is that there’s real people for whom the issues are anything but abstract or academic, and it is insulting and dismissive of you to treat their real thing like a meaningless puzzle for you to poke at. And ultimately, don’t put your desire to win an argument ahead of treating other people humanely. If you can see that your argument is hurting the other person, you should just stop talking except to apologize sincerely and then walk away. Whatever else, you don’t get to tell people how they should feel, and when you can see that you’re hurting another person the only thing you should care about it not hurting them any more.
@Zarron
A third
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/10/19/sex-work-and-the-power-of-choice/
A fourth
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/10/23/news-flash-some-sex-workers-like-some-of-their-customers/
Fifth
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/04/26/guest-post-from-sarah-van-brussel/
Sixth
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/10/20/more-thoughts-on-selling-your-body/
And with that, I’ll say I tossed enough links at you, and that I hope you don’t drown in my links. O_O
Caine @442, the quote is not actually from comeatmebro; it’s from a poster over on the rationalia thread. I just quoted it here because it was an extra-special sort of derpy
echoing Cipher
links at comment #441.
also, I see no reason to assume that wumbologist is comeatmebro. there are several individuals crowing about the banning, and there isn’t even a reason to assume that any one of them is comeatmebro.
okayjustonemoreIhope
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2010/08/02/why-porn-matters/
sorry, you’re right
Erm.
Apparently in rationaliaworld, we’re burning Whoeverthefuck at the stake.
<_<
So uh… that’s cool, I guess…
Thanks for letting me know, Cipher. I was under the impression that TZT was the walled cage where jackasses were penned in so the regular crowd could poke them with sticks every so often, rather than a serious discussion thread.
Thanks for pointing me at those articles, as well, Erista.
And finally, Jadehawk, I have to agree that most mainstream pornography is pretty bad in that respect, myself, but I also don’t think that necessarily means that ALL pornography is bad. I won’t go into my own personal sexual incongruencies, but suffice it to say that there’s all sorts of porn out there that isn’t dehumanizing towards the women (or men) acting in them.
And even as far as some of the more objectionable stuff, I also know people who are into more ‘out there’ things, and so I know that people are certainly capable of enjoying fantasies without actually thinking about going out and doing them for real. I’m not really sure if that justifies the more objectionable stuff, considering the fact that you can’t really screen based on whether the viewer understands the real life moral implications of what their fantasy and why it’s wrong. I guess it is a tough issue.
Huh. That shit originated with the slimepit. That tells me a fair amount about rationalia posters. Laidback forum indeed.
Sorry, that came out longer than I intended. I’ll take it to TZT, as Cipher suggested, since that’s apparently the proper place for this.
445 Jadehawk:
Agreed. It’s complicated, and I know next to nothing about it.
Extremely weirdly, it’s both! PZ sometimes quarantines jackasses to there, but at the same time there are ongoing discussions of the sort that people consider would, for various reasons, detract from the lighter socializing in TET. Sometimes that’s because they’re excessively vitriolic fights, sometimes it’s just because they are very involved and ongoing and spawn many long posts.
I anticipate the porn issue to become both! *cheerful*
Jadehawk:
Ah, sorry. Trying to read and catch up in hurry* and ended up showing my idiocy.
*Mister got home tonight and wanted to play with the popcorn.
jesus. someone will need to explain to the folks over at rationalia what “all it takes for Evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing” means. They’re whining now because they dont want to be made to feel bad because they saw the comment and decided to remain silent instead of calling it out. they don’t “appreciate” having it pointed out to them that their inactions have consequences, you see.
Apparently PZ posting this has made some of the people over there who didn’t approve of this sort of joke ashamed of themselves for not saying anything.
I do feel for them – there have been times I haven’t said things when I should have! In the past, there were more of them. I’m working on it. Because I recognize that it’s wrong to stand by while people hurt other people.
Really, folks? You’re complaining about PZ? It’s not PZ’s fault that that thread was left mostly to people who thought the joke was funny, and that SurlyAmy had to see someone speculating about whether it was maybe okay to rape her because she was annoying, and a bunch of other people chiming in, with very few people saying “Don’t do that.” It is the fault of every one of you who saw the joke, said nothing, and are now standing up to say “We’re not all like that!” You feel bad? Called out? Shamed? That’s on you.
Oh haha, isn’t it clever of them that they have met Papa and like Papa and don’t see this as that big of a deal and knew that it was all a joke!
It’s not like someone who didn’t know Papa/didn’t like Papa/are personally impacted/knew that even jokes have consequences (oh, I don’t know, like Skepchick?) would be IMPACTED by it! It’s not like Surly Amy might find it jarring to have people joke about raping her! It’s not like rape survivors might be impacted by the joke! None of this is important; the important thing is that we all understand that we shouldn’t view anyone on the forum, including Papa, in a lesser light based on his jokes and the reactions to his joke. We have to understand that this isn’t about how women might react to someone joking about raping them.
What. The. Fuck.
I think a lot of people at Rationalia keep quiet in controversial threads because they’ve seen what happens if they do. I don’t blame them, tbh, they want a quiet forum life, and for the most part they get it.
I used to post there but I noticed that when people went against the grain the main people there used to batter them in to submission. There was a thread a year or so ago joking about a girl in the UK who was abducted, some members got really upset about the humour but they were made to STFU (called out as hysterical whingers) and that was that. So I don’t blame existing members for just keeping quiet in the hope that things will just blow over and they can go back to enjoying themselves. Who wants to put themselves in the firing line if they can avoid it?
I just had enough and stopped posting.
Most of the people who would have complained seem to have left Rationalia over time, that’s perhaps why there was no backlash. It does seem to be very stable and full of happy campers – it will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.
O_O
You know what scares the hell out of me about that line of reasoning?
The number of people I know who would subscribe to that exact same line of reasoning if I were to tell them what my last rapist did to me.
“He’s such a great guy, we’re all friends with him, he loves his mother, he’s nice to animals, he’s so funny, you said he was your best friend, look at all the other people who like him, he’d never do that. You must be
lyingcrazyhystericalvindictivemistaken somehow.”lovely. O.o
Thanks for the first big laugh I’ve had in two days, Brownian. :)
That’s why I’m in The Line.
Yeah, that’s what the cops said to my friend when she reported her rape. He was such a nice guy! From such a nice family, a family that been here for years! He was in the boyscouts! He couldn’t possibly have done what she said he did! What was WRONG with her that she was LYING about such a WONDERFUL YOUNG MAN?
Okay, my bitterness showing.
But seriously, in regards to this joke, I wonder at someone who calls themselves a “friend” but insists on covering for their friend’s misdeeds. Maybe I’ve spent too much time reading Socrates, but I think if you are really someone’s friend, you want to help them grow into a better person, and that means acknowledging and dealing with their mistakes. If they do something wrong, you call them on it so that they’ll be able to work towards fixing the problem. You DON’T gloss over and excuse bad behavior; that only lead them down the road to doing more bad things, thus diminishing their character.
Besides, how can you ever even claim to know someone if you won’t see them for who they are, warts and all?
Apparently you can.
Dear person who wrote this, assuming they are still reading:
Um, WHO is doing this? WHERE? Please be more specific.
You know what, never mind. I’ve had enough of this absurdity (Oh look, they’re saying we condone rape! Because it’s not like saying that we are contributing to rape culture is something different! No, they’re saying we’re all rape lovers!). I’m going to bed.
dear stupids at rationalia. please learn to distinguish between demonstrating how a particular argument (“but he’s so nice“) is used in real rape-situations, and comparing (not even equating, comparing; those two words mean different things) a person to a rapist.
please, be less dishonest. for your own integrity’s sake.
Poster who is feeling shamed by PZ’s post here,
First, please understand that the entire reading “PZ says every single person on that forum condones rape” is some serious bullshit.
Second, you are not being singled out. I know you feel that way, but you’re not. The people around you? Those other posters there? They’re responsible for helping keep that environment safe too, and for making sure that someone can call out “jokes” that silence and harm you. They ought to be better allies to you. The people here? They’re better allies than that. That’s why I feel safe posting the sorts of things I have here – the people here have my back. That’s also why I feel okay to go to bed right now! I know that the people here have it covered. Because that’s what the culture here is like. The culture there? From here, it doesn’t look so good.
I do. I fucking blame them for it. Fight to change the culture there, or fucking leave. It’s not like there aren’t millions of internet hangouts to choose from. Some of them are even welcoming to those with an elementary sense of empathy for their fellow human beings.
Fucking cowards.
No, you know what, I have one thing to say before I go to bed.
I was abused by my father, sexually. I do not have a memory of a time before the abuse because it started when I was incredibly young.
I am fucking tired of being told that I’m not allowed to get upset, REALLY upset, about someone joking about that kind of shit. This is fucking serious: A man just made a joke about raping a woman who he’s never met, who never did him any harm, who he doesn’t know at all, and he did this without considering how the fuck it might impact her or people like her. Or if he did consider it, he came to an appalling conclusion.
But no, the people who are truly bad are the people who are upset. We’re not being fair (as if Pappa WAS)! We’re too upset (about having our experiences minimized and used as degrading humor). It was just a JOKE (because jokes don’t carry power)! Why aren’t we being NICER (to/about someone we’ve never met who is more than comfortable saying terrible things about people he’s never met)? It wasn’t that big of a deal (because they get to tell us how upset to be when a joke is made about raping women)!
FUCK that. I’ve had to bear more than enough of that in my life. I am so completely and utterly tired of the fact that it’s so often the person who is on the receiving end of bad behavior is scrutinized. At no point did Amy or any other women gave a say in whether or not she was up to having people joke about raping her, but somehow the important person is the one who had 100% control over whether or not Amy HAD to deal with someone joking about raping her.
No more, no more, no more. Stop asking us to hold in the highest esteem the feelings of someone who just acted in a hurtful way with complete disregard for our feelings. Just STOP. Can you, for just one second, try to stop other people from lashing out at us even when we don’t know them at all? Can you, for just one second, make this about how rape jokes impact the woman and not about how the woman’s anger and hurt impact the joker? We’re not robots and we’re not inhuman. We have feelings and limits and burdens, too, and we didn’t ask you to come and make jokes about raping us, and we certainly didn’t make jokes about raping you.
I can’t deal with this, can’t take it, can’t stand it. It’s too fucking much. Here we are, trying to get through the day, and CRASH! in comes the unexpected pain tossed at us from an unknown source, but we’re not supposed to flinch, because our flinching will make people uncomfortable. We have to be endlessly polite, endlessly calm, endlessly “logical” instead of “emotional.” But we’re PEOPLE, and our reactions and emotions mean something, too.
So, please, stop treating us like we’re something foreign, something alien, something that doesn’t care when people casually joke about hurting us in a way that many of us have already been hurt. The thought of our pain should not be amusing to you. I don’t know what else to do than say PLEASE care about if you hurt me, to beg you to stop insisting that I have no right to be hurt, because there’s a time when even anger isn’t strong enough to serve as a shield. My ability to take blows is not endless, but the number of people who have the ability to inflict blows when I’ve never even seen them is very nearly endless. To you it might be just one little smack, but to me, it’s a blow that’s falling on an already bruised and broken body. If you throw enough stones at me, even little ones, I will die.
So, again, please STOP.
responding to comments there:
you wouldnt’ need to make yourself look like the ignorant dolt that you are if you ever bothered to honestly look at what’s at issue. which is none of the bull you’re strawmanning here, but rather the well-supported phenomenon of sexist jokes supporting rape culture. we have linked to the research on that, and i know you know that, because a commenter over there mentioned the research.
you are whiny. you have in no way suffered harm from me pointing out that you’re whiny. OTOH, rape jokes cause harm. and if you weren’t so fucking cowardly to only read what others quote and came here to see what the big deal was, you’d have the opportunity to read the research on that.
but a very nice trivializing strawman you have there if you think this is merely about “the feelings of everyone who doesn’t like rape jokes”.
because it just wouldn’t behoove posters on a board called “rationalia” to actually find out whether it’s really “nothing”, by reading the cited research. Because that would actually be rational, and we can’t have that.
you are, of course, incorrect, as I pointed out in my last comment.
incorrect. we’re telling you that you should have called Pappa out on his rape-joke and condemn his behavior. stop being dishonset, folks.
no, not hard to understand at all. which is why the community as a whole carries the responsibility for condemning these jokes, so that rape-victims alone don’t have to bear the burden. That is the fucking point. YHere, people who can’t deal with rape-jokes rarely if ever have to face that pain, because we’ve made sure that that’s the kind of community we have. You’ve failed to do that. By your collective silence. You have no herd immunity against promotion of rape culture. And this is why:
you prefer tribalism to making sure rape-culture doesn’t get promoted on your forum.
read the fucking research before you run your ignorant mouth.
prison rape jokes. stay classy. and keep on telling yourself you’re not harmful.
I suspect they’d be in less of a kerfuffle over a male rape joke, and then we could admonish them for keeping silent and letting evil triumph.don’t project, asshole
– – – –
and that’s as far as I got before they made the forum for members only
*rolleyes*
blockquote fail at the end
prison rape jokes. stay classy. and keep on telling yourself you’re not harmful.
don’t project, asshole
Prison rape jokes make already sad woman even sadder. :(
I read to page 15, closed it, and upon trying to re-open the page I see it requires a login. Oh well.
Rationalia people, I hope you can see past this being some kind of forum-on-forum war. I’d never heard of your forum before, and understand that the thread referenced is actually in some no-man’s-land sort of subforum that a lot of people have on ignore anyway. That being the case, I hope you can still understand how horrible it is to make a thread “joking” about raping anyone. Maybe reading this post will help. Maybe not.
I don’t nearly believe that every one of you, or even most of you, agrees with Pappa. You just (maybe) think he’s a good guy and don’t think his intentions were bad. Still, this thread wasn’t simply a joke that fell flat– it was a really nasty and hurtful error in judgment. It’s okay to call it that. It is, I’d say, actually obligatory to call it that. But whether you do is of course up to you.
or the thread got deleted. either way, can’t see it anymore
[meta]
Erista @477, you lay it out straight and the truth shines from your post.
(I can’t comfort you, but I can diss the scum who don’t care that they hurt you and who feel no shame at your ebullition)
*Offers hugs if wished for to Erista*
Jadehawk:
Jesus fuckin’ Christ. Shouldn’t they have learned that ages ago?
gonch:
FFS, people who know to stand against what is obviously fucking wrong? What in the hell is the matter with them? What is the matter with you?
No, it’s not fun to put yourself on the firing line, however, it’s what every person with a conscience and awareness of social justice does. Full stop. Jesus, this isn’t about “hey, I just wanna enjoy myself, don’t harsh my mellow by making me say something about douchebags who make rape jokes, man.”
If you’re part of a community which purports itself to be rational, thinking human beings, there’s a bit of a follow up there.
[meta]
Jadehawk,
Just clicked the link at the OP, and yes.
Bah. Cowards are cowardly.
Thread is still there, not getting any better. I’ve been a member of Rationalia since the very first; I’m logged in and I can see it.
IF anyone is curious, I can copy some more of their posts to here.
IF anyone has any suggestions for things I should post over there, I’m up for it. I already said the only thing I wanted to say of my own.
I’ll be awake for another half an hour or so.
Re : OP, and the reaction to it.
No, it wasn’t funny. Yes, we’re yelling at your forum, because your forum’s population approved of the rape joke by a 3 to 1 margin (7 disapproved vs 21 approved in the first 2 pages alone)
When you’re wrong, you own up to it and take responsibility for it, and take corrective action. I’ve been wrong here before, been corrected, and accepted those corrections.
As for “outing” people. That has long been viewed as the internet (and usenet and online services before then) version of a nuclear weapon. It’s always been used by the scummier versions of flame warriors, not as a “warning for people who might live nearby” but as a threat to silence people. I don’t want to silence anyone. Not even Mr Rape Joke. I want Mr Rape Joke Papa to realize his errors and correct them! Learn where and why you did wrong, apologize for it, and correct yourself. Then move on.
Oh. and a hasty post script: No, I don’t refer in my 488 to making someone’s homosexuality public, but of “dropping dox” on people or publishing their real name and location or contact information.
and they complain because PZ banned a single individual for having misplaced priorities AND not being able to follow simple instructions, while blocking all of us from seeing what they’re saying?
hypocrites.
If I had any hope that the lot would actually read them, I’d post the links to the research, maybe even suggesting that if they want the full-text versions they can e-mail me. But that’s probably futile. *sigh*
Erista:
I’m sorry, Erista. In my case, the rape started when I was three. Went on for six years. There aren’t words strong enough for those who commit such acts. There are words for you – you’re stronger than you know, you have empathy and care for others, they matter to you. You’re a force for good and what is right, always remember that.
hotshoe,
Presuming it was an open post before, that it’s no longer so implies their admin(s) felt it necessary to remove it from the public domain; if you care to, you could ask why so?
(An honest repudiation would have been the go, but that would require some integrity)
Oh, well, the very idea of admonishing someone for being so insensitive to the plight of victimized women! You’re more than a bit of an idiot, whoever wrote the tripe above. This isn’t about the “plight of victimized women”, it’s about victimizing women, you fuckwit. It’s about shoring up rape culture, making sure those who would rape have your tacit assent and encouragement, ’cause it’s funny, you know.
It’s about making sure that women don’t feel safe, anywhere, ever. No, you couldn’t possibly stand up for what is right! Goodness, that might lead to a better world! Can’t have that, amirite? Idiot.
As to the moron who made the remark about prison rape – shut the fuck up. There are a number of male victims of rape here at Pharyngula and no, we don’t think that sort of joke is funny either. Christ, what a bunch of broken crayons.
I can see why they named the forum rationalia. It rhymes with genitalia.
Jadehawk, John Morales –
Done and done.
For whatever good it will do, which is none at all.
Aaaaand … we have the official answer! Here’s Pappa’s newest reply:
Okay, that’s it for me for tonight.
Sorry, y’all.
hotshoe, thank you!
(I am not surprised at the recalcitrance there)
hotshoe
Thanks.
Now we know.
Pappa doesn’t practice what he preaches. Quelle Surprise.