The voices of the Right in this country all seem to be this demented.
(Episode CCC: An empathetic, thoughtful Republican?.)
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
The voices of the Right in this country all seem to be this demented.
(Episode CCC: An empathetic, thoughtful Republican?.)
Shplane Cyborg Status: Repairs Ongoing
*Beep Boop*
It wasn’t a really bad trigger, it just triggered the memory. And made me laugh. But that church experience was about a 92 on the Weird-Shit-o-Meter.
It didn’t make my morning crappy (work has taken care of that), just more weird.
====
I actually find it refreshing to hear Breitbart speak what he actually believes for a change. No code. No dog whistles. No god whistles. Just the pure and undilituted hatred that the privileged have for anyone who was not born into money. He really does view American workers, students, the poor, the middle class, as animals.
Nice to see him being honest for a change.
Of course, I bet Faux News will show this and find a way to present him as a victim of the bullying of the evil labour unions and the Democrats.
New thread while old thread is still on the first page. Is this a new record?
Dammit, I got portcullised! Lost the whole thing.
I love Sundays so much now that I don’t go to church. So much nicer to sit and do whatever the hell I want until noon. The rest of the day I try to act like a responsible adult, but waking up time to 12 is now MY time.
I am starting to think the Humane Society pulled a fast one on us selling us this “cat”. It plays fetch for upwards of an hour at a time, likes to chew on shoes and notebooks and books, and likes to wrestle with socks. Cat, ha!
DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER DANGER
So she’s a self-admitted bully who is proud of it and thinks her victims deserved it. That is the point at which I would wash my hands of that friendship, and tell her I refuse to talk to her any more because she is incapable of having a humane discussion.
I linked to Daniel Fincke’s post about this video yesterday. I am, though, developing a rather strong dislike for him. As I say in the comments there, despite the fact that Libby Anne herself apologized and (kind of clumsily) changed her OP in response to some of the comments, he chose to present it today as though people were responding to the post as it now reads, which is completely different from its original version, as he well knows.
I don’t think she’s another Mooney. I think Fincke is rapidly becoming one, though.
I think Libby Anne’s policy is fine. I most strongly agreed with Clasical Cipher’s post there that the problem isn’t being accommodationist or worrying about tone, but only if in doing so one declares it to be the Only Best and Right Way and Those Others are All
HeathensPhilistinesBarbarians. I don’t think Libby Anne was doing that as much as her commenters were, and I think she does grok the problem with that approach.Right, re-posting this for the benefit of those who haven’t seen it yet. Oh and just to clarify Dr Bunsen, it’s the quoted person Sandra saying this, not me :) though I agree with you completely on your stance.
Well, Sandra got back to me. She at least stuck to discussing only gay marriage, but unfortunately she didn’t actually do any real quoting of parts of the email I sent back to her. So I’ll try and break it up into easier to read portions for you guys’ benefit. Once again, help would much appreciated on this :) :
So first she back peddles and says that the inequality promoted by Prop 8 is comparatively less so than other states, while still claiming marriage isn’t different to civil unions:
She then elaborates with how she thinks getting gay marriage legal across the entire US would be possible with an example:
She then goes after me for pointing out “Separate but Equal”:
Finally, she makes a defense of what I rightfully called her out on, for being a bigot, while also claiming to know transgendered people, and also defends the “polygamy being similar to gay marriage” stance she took before:
On that last one, I’m not actually against polygamy provided that a) it’s between consenting adults, b) women have equal rights to marry however many people they want as men, and c) they sort out a good system for sorting out exactly what tax breaks people involved in polygamous marriages are entitled to and that the participants doing it aren’t just trying to keep avoiding taxes.
But yeah, as much help as possible would be greatly appreciated in tackling this. :)
Also, while Sandra didn’t send me a full response to the “bullying” issue, she did send me this, promising that she’d do a full response in time.
Also, while Sandra didn’t send me a full response to the “bullying” issue, she did send me this, promising that she’d do a full response in time.
So yeah, help on this would be awesome too. :)
Much thanks,
James
Chigau, I’m also having trouble posting. Longer comments without links get eated. Short comments with multiple (though fewer than six) links go through. Go fig.
Sphlane, I’m glad to hear you’re healing so quickly and well.
Carlie, I was hesitating to tell James that, unless convincing the lurkers on that forum is truly critical, Sandra isn’t worth the effort. But I don’t have the patience for those sorts of debates anyway, so I’m not the best person to ask in that regard.
@james – then I still am not sure what your arguer is on about by slamming Prop 8 for not being the perfect-ideal-whatever test case. Therefore California should just throw its gays under the bus until a better case comes along? I don’t know much about laws but I know civil rights also need some degree of popular support and organization to foster conditions in which a test case can arise in the first place.
Except that 1) wasn’t she arguing that civil unions or whatever were just as good as marriage? On the federal level, clearly THAT isn’t true. And 2) federal-level arguments ignore that couples with rights via civil unions risk losing those rights if they travel to other states or if their families or jobs overlap other states. That in itself is an unjust restriction.
It’s also unjust to have rights-on-paper that can’t be accessed due to legally enshrined obstacles, such as in abortion obstruction laws, or voter disenfranchisement.
Re bullying: besides survivor bias as mentioned previously (hey, ONE person survived the tornado, therefore they ALL could if they prayed hard enough right?) she’s conflating cause and effect. Perfectly ordinary people develop PTSD all the time from external factors such as being victimized, imprisoned, tortured, isolated, or surviving an impersonal disaster. Bullying can be experimentally induced simply by providing unrestrained authority. That doesn’t make it any more natural or healthy than cancer.
Besides, one of the most substantive factors in surviving bullying (or any trauma) isn’t personality, genes, or anything attributable to the individual victim. It’s social support.
So do I. Vague, but fine. I don’t think anyone is arguing about that.
Well, she alternated between these two in the original version (and agreed with some of the comments). When it was pointed out, she removed parts of the OP. I think the post after the two major revisions is fine, but the problem is that it isn’t the post to which people were responding. So it’s dishonest of Fincke, who saw the original version and should have noted that she had altered it because she pointed it out, to link to it today like the response (including his own) was to this completely different version. (It’s also disrespectful to her, since it refuses to acknowledge her change of mind.) It’s reasonable to think pushback against the post as it now reads would be somewhat questionable, but this wasn’t the post people were responding to.
Oggie:
The 40-something lady orgasming in the aisle would have sent me running. :)
At the time, I did not understand. Later in life, it became really, really, really funny.
@ James (previous thread)
wrt to your discussion with Sandra:
Marriage is a basic human right. It is not a question of voting for or against Prop 8. All that waffle she is spewing is beside the point. It is embarrassing that we still have to deal with this insane shit in this day and age.
Also, consider what carlie says above. She justifies her abuse of others on the basis that she was once abused. What kind of reasoning is that? I am not sure you can solve so much wrong with a discussion on the internet.
The other thing that bothers me about Fincke’s post is that he frames it like Loftus leaving and another blogger saying she wouldn’t be comfortable here necessarily means that the community is doing something wrong and is and will remain a narrow, insular network. But not every blog network is the right fit for everyone, either, and a blog that’s welcoming to religious people in certain ways, even if commenters respect its rules, is probably going to face some challenges here. It’s the nature of the network: the same qualities that make these environments hospitable to and safe for freethinkers make it trickier for many religious people.
Oggie:
I think seeing a woman convulsing in church and not understanding what it could have been might have freaked me out even more.
This is total victory for the Occupiers.
They coaxed out his weird pure hate.
Deconstructing Breitbart:
We can infer from behavior some picture, however sketchy, of what may go on in another person’s mind. We can not observe the inner workings directly, but I can offer a suggestion.
In the right-wing “mind” for the last 30-40 years there lurks an unshakable belief in the existence of “The undeserving other.” The New Deal cut out non-whites from most of its benefits (see the exemptions for certain categories of agricultural workers) and therefore only triggered a “you’ll spoil the brutes!” reaction from the top 20% or so. But the Great Society Programs touched a nerve. Rank and file right wing people from all classes go nuts over the idea of some “lazy, freeloading” people, early on identified directly by skin color or ethnicity, as living large on taxes hard working people pay. When you speak to right-wing white people the sense of grievance is palpable. In private they will even readily identify the targets of their rage by color. We have progressed far enough that they no longer dare openly identify the “Undeserving Other” by color, unless, of course, you count Santorum’s statement about “blah” people as actually “black” people, but only looney liberals who can’t hear properly think that. Now and then, the truth spills out.
To clarify one bit in the video: Breitbart’s accusation that the OWS people are “raping people” actually makes a demented kind of sense once you realize the alternate reality in which he lives. The OWS people are made up of and support the “Undeserving Other” who are (in his alternate reality) living quite well on the dole. He feels raped and fucked over by them. Not. Kidding. The reveal comes when during the “you’re raping people” bit when he added one word once: “You’re raping the people.” That’s alternate reality Breitbart-speak for “you lazy bastards want to live off my hard-earned (or hard-inherited?) money.”
At the time Michael started to petition for removal of the feeding tubes, Terri had been in a vegetative state for 8 years and Michael had been in a relationship with another woman several years (3 or 6, depending on the source). His relationship with Terri was less “husband” and more “custodian”.
Despite the language used in a number of the Court decisions, not everyone agrees that Terri would have wanted to have lifesupport terminated.
—
fucking internet
The fail is strong with this one.
Christ, what was with repeating “Behave yourselves!” over and over again? Aside from sounding like a broken record, Breitbart looked even more like a loon than if he’d just shouted random syllables at the protestors.
For our Moment of Mormon Madness on this Sunday, we refer to the lesson plans for teaching young mormon girls and women what’s what.
Here are some expcerpts from the instructions:
[shudder]
[more shuddering, and not in delight]
You will notice that no single women are ever invited to speak, nor are they held up as role models. This is the point made by the author of the article in the Meridian Magazine.
I’m actually kind of surprised the magazine even deigned to publish something written by a single woman.
One of my right-wing friends and I used to have discussions about things like taxes and fairness. He had such a disconnect from reality that I just had to stop talking to him. He really believed, and stated explicitly, that in the USA anyone who works hard will succeed. He actually thinks that there are no other variables involved. Everyone who wants to can make six figures per year.
I also have a lot of friends who are working-poor republicans. It’s so strange to see the totality of the victory the rich have had in dividing the people against themselves. I can go out for lunch and spend an hour listening to (white) people struggling to make ends meet with government assistance complaining about all the lazy minorities who need government assistance.
And this:
This is a misrepresentation of CC’s point, which wasn’t a complaint about feeling excluded but about the suggestion, which he’s now making, that the same sort of environment is emotionally safe for everyone. It seemed to me that CC was saying that this might turn out to be an environment in which she didn’t feel safe or “liberated to speak freely and debate productively,” and that’s fine, but please don’t ignore that fact and claim that everyone will or should feel safe or liberated there. If it were that simple, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
The actions of Andrew Breitbart reminds me of one incident at a peace camp in Chicago back in 1991. A rather demented old man started throwing around the cardboard, blankets and sleeping bags that we used to sleep overnight. (In those days, we could actually stay on federal property. And many of the guards were very kind to us.) He yelled that we were are camel jockeys and should go back to Iraq. Most of us assumed that he could not come up with a new insult in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR.
(For all of you youngsters, some people liked to tell even the mildest of liberals that if they were not happy with the US as it was, they should move to the Soviet Union.)
chigau,
You would expect him to remain celibate? To give up custodianship? What? Because you cannot validly infer from him having a relationship with another woman, starting at least a couple of years after his wife entered an irreverisble coma, that he no longer cared what she would have wanted.
Of course not everyone agrees – that’s why there was a court case. The court had to make a decision on the evidence they had. How does this justify you dismissing her husband as “some guy”?
chigau:
Okay, besides the fact that legally Michael should have been able to make her medical decisions (‘cos, you know, that’s what spouses do), what the fuck is this argument?
How can you have a loving relationship (as opposed to a custodial relationship) with someone who is a vegetable? Are you arguing that he should have denied himself some happiness (by finding another partner), even though his wife was brain dead and totally not responsive?
He couldn’t have had a relationship with Terri, so how the fuck does this support what you’re arguing?
Well, a persistent vegetative state does tend to get in the way of ordinary marital relations.
Aa! Dammit, I have to not comment when I’m not caffeinated! I missed that he said that, somehow. Aaa.
Lynna!
I don’t know if you saw this in the last thread, but I wanted to let you know that I found an extremely similar recipe to the Mo’ Shrimp and Lemon Jell-o Salad that you sent me in my moms’ 1972 Better Homes & Gardens Cookbook. It uses unflavored gelatin and condensed tomato soup, but otherwise, yeah. Same deal. ;)
You do realize that you are cozening up to the “Micheal murdered Terri!” accusations.
Also, I have to ask this question, what makes you think that a couple did not talk about under what circumstances that life support should come to an end?
And this, what is the big deal about Micheal entering into a new relationship? Is he supposed to remain faithful to a partner who is not longer there?
Well, that depends on whether you view a woman as a human being, or as a womb on legs. I seem to remember, some years ago, a Christian minister claiming that a man could still have marital relations with his wife even if she were in a coma.
Shifting sea ice makes creeeepy noises.
Oggie:
*barf!* What the fuck is wrong with people?
Seriously, chigau, did you miss the freak show that the right wing made of this case and of the mass of deluded cultural warriors who crowded where ever her body was being kept warm.
You have been using these people’s talking points.
Necrophilia, how lovely.
“Two words, ladies. Clitoral stimulation.”
*shudder*
—
I hate James’s friend so much right now I cannot even translate my rage into words. So that’s nice.
—
I went to go look that up when you mentioned it. (What can I say? I was really not very smart last night.) Fuck! It was horrifying. What a gross response from her commentariat.
Yeah. If I’m already not in a good place, that place wrecks my brain, sometimes by making me feel extraordinarily shitty about myself. Not usually, but sometimes. Last night was not a good time for me to be there.
Yeah… I suppose. I just get really frustrated when I have trouble doing things. I know, it’s silly and I should stop, but it’s hard. :(
drbunsen:
A was a well known medical professional who was held in very high regard. She used her connections, along with the excuse of my father being schizophrenic to have me committed whenever the whim struck her. Started doing that when I was 7 years old.
james,
Reading Sandra’s take on bullying, two things strike me that haven’t yet been commented on. One is that it is simply not true that bullies “only go after weak or easy prey”, or that standing up to them will necessarily make the bullying stop. It’s a lie that places the blame on the victim. What if the bully is twice your size, or there are five of them and only one of you? (Incidentally, the cowardice attributed to bullies is not true of hyenas either: a pack of hyenas can and does drive a lion from its kill.) The other is that although she presents herself as having survived, she sounds to me like a severely damaged person, who lacks compassion, and justifies her own shameful bullying behaviour as a child by blaming her victims.
Bonus weird sounds: Seal calls underwater
(Both of the above courtesy wtf_nature, a Livejournal community)
Saw your PS. :) But I thought you covered everything in your post.
***
Oh, ew. I was thinking more about everyday conversation, hanging out together, and so on. I wish I’d said “married life.”
***
It’s not at all relevant, but I did miss it almost entirely. I was living in Europe and saw it in the news only very occasionally. When people talked about it later, I really didn’t grasp how major it had all been here in the US.
Janine:
Going by chigau’s reasoning, Patricia is an evil, horrible person for having the awful nerve to fall in love again after her husband died.
SallyStrange’s was the other comment at Libby Anne I really agreed with.
I didn’t realize at first the post I read was the changed one; it would be nice for there to be a convention for adapted OPs, maybe with strikethroughs instead of whole deletions and footnotes to an explanation of why it changed, along with a time stamp and a reminder that all comments made before x time were made regarding the original.
Forgot it was Darwin Day today. Happy Darwin Day! Enjoy some They Might Be Giants.
Random aside (but still pertaining to vintage foods):
One of my most cherished cookbooks is the American Woman’s Cookbook 1939 edition (I know I’ve mentioned it several times and I gave Carlie a marshmallow recipe out of it), which belonged to my grandmother. Anyway, I just got a fb message from Mr Darkheart’s aunt– she wanted to know if I’d be interested in The American Woman’s Cookbook 1945 edition, which had belonged to her mother-in-law (Mr Darkheart’s grandmother).
I said, “hells yes”. :)
drbunsen,
Horst Mahler
There is a streak on the German Left (though luckily a fringe) that says that fascism was a noble idea perverted by the Nazis (maybe reminiscent of the USSR’s New Man? Though I don’t know enough about the New Man to be sure).
Rainer Langhans, of Commune 1 fame and one of the most colourful characters of the 1968 movement, the most famous German polyamorist alive (until today he lives in his self-described “harem” with five women), for instance had this idea. Back when Mahler was pondering these things after he got out prison in the 90s, most leftist intellectuals understood Langhans to mean this relating to the individual, i.e. as individuals, leftists should aspire to “beauty” and “spirituality”, which implied all these virtues perverted by the Nazis. Though in recent years Langhans seems to have gone off the rocker completely.
But Mahler, in 1997, understood this with respect to the nation. So while Langhans had originally said, we as leftists, should learn from our parents and strive to be better individuals (last year he said “we should be the better fascists”), Mahler took this as “we as leftists, should learn from our parents and strive to be a better nation”.
After that he became a full Nazi though. After defending the NPD, a neo-Nazi party, he left the party because he felt that it was too much committed to democracy. Maybe democracy just wasn’t beautiful enough.
Labor vincit omnia
As I said, comes from Virgil, and was apparently used by the US labor movement.
Arbeit macht frei, was a cynical allusion to the medieval saying “Stadtluft macht frei” (city air will set you free) and relating to the custom that hiding in a free city for one year and a day would release villeins (note the E) from their servitude to their feudal lord.
Similarly, the Nazis were mocking the prisoners (or giving them false hope) that working in Ausschwitz would set them free.
Fuckin’ hell. Sometimes I do seem to bring out the shittiest in people.
Eh, well, that’s not true. I seem to bring out some mild to moderate shittiness in some people.
(Sorry. Mahler was an attorney, who apparently could never keep his distance from his clients. Originally he was Ulrike Meinhof and other terrorists’ attorney. Then he got involved with them, fled with them to PLO camp etc, and was convicted as a RAF terrorist and lost licence over this. Gerhard Schröder (later chancellor) and Otto Schily (later interior minister) were also RAF attorneys, but who never became criminally involved with them, they just defended the terrorist suspects. When Mahler got out, Schröder, then the opposition leader in the state of Lower Saxony, helped him regain his licence. Then Mahler defended the NPD in court, and became a member. He ultimately lost his licence again, because of his convictions due to incitement to hatred and Holocaust denial.)
CC:
Erm, what?
Yeah, she just apologized at CWH and said she should do a clarifying post. The reason I hadn’t jumped in there was that I didn’t see it helping given that she obviously meant well. I think she thought, “Yeah, you’re right! I’ll go fix that,” and did, which is admirable and did correct the problems (and was likely far better than opening up an argument about the claims in the anecdote by providing the links). She just didn’t think through all of the possible effects. I probably wouldn’t have said anything else about it had he not posted what he did this morning, and I hope if she does write a clarifying post it just puts it all to rest. I look forward to reading her blog, and I hope it goes well for her here.
SC 5 & 10 (is that like Woolworth’s?)
Like you, I’m happier with Libby Anne than Dan Fincke. John Loftus left because he didn’t think FtB was a good fit for his primary audience. I wouldn’t be surprised if Libby Anne comes to a similar conclusion.
Fincke pissed me off. I read his post as telling us nasty, five year old Pharynguloids that when we are visiting Auntie Libby’s blog we have to be on our best behavior, no swearing, no arguing and for goodness sake don’t pick your nose.
The whole point of the redacted email comment about the FtB hordes descending on a poor, helpless blog and beating it up in a misogynist way was for Libby Anne to say “don’t do this on my blog.” I can accept that part of it (although I have my doubts about how the invasion of the hapless blog actually happened).
I’ll see how her blog plays out. I suspect it won’t be one of my favorite blogs.
Oh, I was just having a dumb hyperbolic tantrum because I was irritated with someone saying a shitty thing. It was little and it’s better now.
Actually, the only time bullying became physical for me was after I stood up for myself. I think it was about Italian class. I didn’t want to give my workbook to this girl to give it to the teacher as her own. After class, she was pissed off. I was sitting in the corridor, on those elevated benches where the choir practiced. She told me to come over to her (I remember it being said in the way one tells a disobedient dog that just pissed on your neighbor to heel) and I answered that if she wants to tell me something, she’s welcome to come over. She did. And she dragged me down by the hair. Being twice as big as I, she was capable of pretty much swinging me around by the hair. Thankfully, people from another class came quickly to help, before she could land any actual punches. Those from mine didn’t want to get on her bad side.
The bullying did sort of stop after that, but I don’t think it had much to do with me seeming any less of an easy target. It was close to summer, so she didn’t have much time left to torment me, and she found another victim during the summer. I think this one ended up in the hospital, but I was never sure if those were only rumors.
SC, the political grandstanding would have turned your stomach. Here is The Pttttttt Of All Knowledge’s account of Terri’s Law.
I have no desire to dig up photos of people with taped over mouths (Because Terri was not allowed to speak for herself) standing as silent witness to the “murder” of Terri. And I was not exaggerating about the person who tried to break into the room that Terri was kept in, in order to give her a glass of water.
I took Terri Shiavo in her vegetative state to be the ideal form of christian identity.
Ogvorbis/Audley: There was a case in the last… few years, I think, of a man who was having “conjugal visits” with his comatose wife in a nursing home. I don’t remember whether he was arrested for rape or not, but I distinctly remember a comment thread full of people, mainly men, who could see nothing wrong with this “arrangement.” So, unfortunately, it’s not just the theocrats.
Caine: Dear lord. I’m sorry.
Hm. As I left the bedroom where the “cat” and I had been snuggled in bed, I jokingly said “Here, kitty kitty!” as I went into the front room. She obligingly hopped down and trotted after me.
I might have to start looking for the zipper to get that cat suit off of the new puppy.
P.S. I will make an effort to refrain from posting dumb hyperbolic tantrums in the future. Sorry.
Caine, I’m so sorry. I know you’ve spoken about it here in the past; I didn’t realise perhaps just how on a whim and trivial and punitive it was. That’s unbelievably horrible.
*hugs* if you want ’em.
Daisy:
Aaw, thank you. It’s all long over now.
Carlie, we’ve always had cats who would come when called and follow us on walks. Back when we lived in Idyllwild, we used to take the dogs and Thisbe, our cat out hiking with us.
Drbunsen, please keep in mind, many of the fine biblical based “Parents’ Rights” advocates defend the abuse that Caine when through. Right now, thousands of teens, be it because they are LGBT, atheist or just do not toe the line of their parent’s faith, are put through the same kind of torment.
The memoir, The Last Time I Wore A Dress is but one account. Ask Lynna about mormon boot camps for atheist kids.
I had a cat who would go for walks on a leash.
Janine:
Yes and it can not be excused under any circumstance.
All this discussion has reminded me again that I need to talk things over with Mr and to get those “patient’s wills signed.
And there’s one thing I want to hammer into his head:
1) I don’t want to exist in a vegetative state
2) If I should be reduced to the state of a babbling infant, either by dissease or by accident, I want him to do 2 things:
-Get me into decent care
–Move on with his life and become as happy as possible
I love my husband, I love my family. I want to spend some 60 more years with them. I want us to be happy. But if I can’t be a source of happieness for them anymore, I don’t want to be a source of misery.
The fact that my life will be over then is sad, but no amount of additional suffering on their side will change that. So, if he can find another woman to make him happy, and one who is willing to be a loving stepmother for my children, then that’s the thing I want the most.
This was one of the links the reader sent her. (As I said at CWH, Libby removed them and I don’t think ever knew the specifics, so she doesn’t see the anecdote as impotant and she’s not attempting to stand by it, but I don’t know why I shouldn’t link to it here).
Annoyingly, that post doesn’t link to anything it’s talking about, but the quote from PZ comes from here, where I had to go (see Ing’s comment @ #37) to find out what this was all referring to. Looked through many of the comments there and skimmed quickly through a couple of the other links and didn’t even see familiar nyms. I didn’t see anything “consistently misogynistic,”* and I’m sure on “disrespectful of religious people” this person and I are working with different definitions (I thought the piece by Froborr, which I also just skimmed, was disrespectful to religious people, in addition to being unbearably stupid and dishonest). Of course, if comments were deleted we can’t know what they said, but it’s looking a lot like “Exhibit B” to me right now. I can definitely imagine, though, that there were many comments in there about religion that would not be the sorts of things Libby would want on her blog (on the other hand, Froborr was specifically asking for evidence of the negative effects of religion, so it would be a fairly bad example to use).
*(which would be pretty strange if these were people defending Greta Christina)
If I ever end up brain dead, I’m gone, gone, gone. At that point, my wish would be for Mister to have me unplugged, donated, and the left over bits crispy crittered. Then, I would want Mister to continue on, living his life. If that means he was fortunate enough to find love again, I’d hope he’d embrace it with joy and happiness.
Janine: On one of the last few Mother’s Days, the New York Times ran a column by a psychologist or psychiatrist who treated parents whose children had cut all ties with them. He was obviously biased in favor of such parents and not very understanding of reasons their children may have had. The comment thread absolutely erupted with anecdotes from people who had had to cut their toxic parents out of their lives… and there were not a few from far-right authoritarians who opined that bringing children into existence should cement said children’s loyalty and “duty” to their parents, no matter how abusive.
(Oh, and there were one or two estranged parents whose comments made it quite understandable why their children didn’t talk to them anymore.)
‘Tis, did you train your cat from kittenhood to walk on a leash? I would like to take my ~10-year-old kitteh out in that manner, but when I’ve tried, she plonks her 12-lb. self down in the grass, and that’s that. She then has to be picked up and taken inside again.
Thus proving that you are better off here than commenting, at say, ChristianMarriageTradition.com (not a real site (I hope not, anyway) just tossed out as an example).
I have one or two older cookbooks. I love the things that are either unexplained or unmeasured. One recipe of which I am thinking has the line, “Add flour until thickened” with absolutely no suggestion as to how much that is; yet seasonings (other than salt) are measured to the quarter teaspoon. Also, is it my immagination, or do the mid-20c cookbooks underseason everything? I mean, 1 teaspoon of oregano for a pot of spaghetti sauce? And saute half a clove of garlic in oil and then remove the garlic? Hell, I’ve been known to use 50 cloves of garlic for four chicken breasts.
Back when I had my own blog, I posted on the Schatzi book, To Train Up A Child and I got a really scary commenter named Matthew who wrote this:
and this:
and this:
and this:
He was one scary and sick individual. (the exchange is still online on my now defunct blog at http://iambilly.wordpress.com/2010/03/02/wholesale-child-abuse/ if you want the full impact.).
Daisy:
Oh, it’s not just far-right authoritarians who hold that attitude. A former friend of mine, who knew the details of my childhood, used to harp at me all the fucking time with “she’s your mother, you should get back in touch with her” and so on.
A lot of people simply cannot conceive of severing family ties.
*facepalm explodes out the back of her skull*
Caine,
Yup, that’s exactly what I want, too. Take the feeding tube out, have me cremated, give all of my crap to whoever wants it/decent charities, then I want Mr Darkheart to move on when he’s ready.
I hate that fucking “true love”/”soul mates” trope. If you truly love someone, you should want them to be happy, not living in misery after your death*.
*Or persistent vegetative state.
Sorry, in my ~68 (the first digit does not show) the book was by Michael and Debbie Pearl (with No Greater Joy Ministries) and the Schatz’s were the ones who beat their 7-year girl to death with a plumbing hose. My bad.
Audley:
Exactly. As for that pesky persistent vegetative state, if I’m in one of those, I’m dead. Who “I” was is no longer there, she has left the brain. So to speak. ;p
Ogvorbis, I hope that his unfortunate children can somehow get away from such hellish conditions. That is an ethical monster.
—————————————————————–
I did not attend my father’s funeral. I do not feel bad about that at all.
Two of my brothers tried to maintain a relationship with him in the years before he died. Even they were frustrated by their attempts and all but gave up before he died.
Ugh.
That’s an infuriating mindset. My condolences at having to deal with such a pushy and ignorant person. And *hugs* with regard to your childhood itself… there’s not really words. It’s monstrous what happened to you. Is there anything that can be done to prevent that sort of confluence of horribleness?
Caine: True, that. Some people seem incapable of comprehending or dealing with others who do not follow a very particular script in life, and their need to pressure you into conforming to it overrides their common sense or compassion, if they had any to begin with.
Yeah. And no matter the subject, I could count on him being just as batshit crazy, cruel, and antiempathetic (if that is even a word).
Caine:
Some people just do not grok empathy. Or they substitute what they want for what someone else wants. Anyway, you have my ongoing sympathy.
I’m finding more and more stuff that society finds incredibly ‘romantic’ to be creepy and repulsive, the older I get.
If it’s not creepy notions of ownership and possession being mistaken for ‘love’, it’s the creepy message being sent in most ‘romantic’ media that love is a pursuit, and that if the girl rejects you, you gotta keep ‘Going for it!’. Instead of, you know, respecting her wishes and leaving her the fuck alone. And if not that, then it’s the absolutely creepy way women seem to be infantilised in many romantic ‘traditions’.
Teddy bears, flowers, chocolates, yeah, absolutely nothing wrong with them in and of themselves, but cute stuff like that is absolutely no substitute for support, listening, mutual respect, and all those things we grownups tend to cherish in good relationships.
In two days comes VD-day. *shudder*. THE most infantilising of romantic traditions. A shitty day perched right in the middle of a shitty month, a little metaphorical fly-couple fucking noisily atop a particularly fetid turd, like unto a cherry atop a sundae.
Why do you think that many of us share these stories and oppose those who advocate for the right to threat children in this way?
(Please do not think I am yelling at you.)
Caine:
Yep.
What initially got me thinking about death/end of life issues was when we bought life insurance*. I pay more because my job puts me into a higher risk pool than Mr Darkheart. Since then, I’ve made sure that he knows exactly what I want and it was a huge relief to know that we are on the same page.
*Small plans to cover the costs of dying.
And I think illness/death is one of those things that couples should absolutely talk about before they get married– like kids, finances, etc. I know no one (especially when they’re young) wants to talk about it, but that’s just too damned bad.
A was a well known medical professional who was held in very high regard. She used her connections, along with the excuse of my father being schizophrenic to have me committed whenever the whim struck her. Started doing that when I was 7 years old.
This is still horrifying to me, no matter how many times I see it.
The closest thing to it that I personally witnessed was the family friend who was named Woman of the Year in a certain small East Texas town in December yet wound up in a mental institution by April, because her doctor husband wanted to marry his piece of ass on the side. Having a spouse committed was one of the only ways to get divorced in Texas at the time, especially if a scumbag didn’t want to have to worry about who got child custody or what assets.
The first thing I asked my mother was, “Why did the psychiatrist agree to commit her?” And my mother didn’t know how to answer. So I’ve thought mental health “professionals” were suspect at minimum, and vermin at their worst, ever since.
CC:
It really is. I get it that she had a *wonderful* relationship with her mother and couldn’t imagine life without her. What I tried to get across, over and over, was that to allow A back into mine would have devastating consequences to me.
All I ever got from former friend was shit like “oh, your mother must be so sad”. Yeah, she just didn’t fucking get it at all.
♥ Yes, there is – to keep screaming at the top of our voices about the right of bodily autonomy. Education, birth control and safe, legal abortion are vital to prevent the type of thing that happened to me.
Those things don’t (and won’t) prevent all cases of abuse, but they sure as hell would cut down on them, primarily by preventing the birth of an unwanted child. Being unwanted is bad enough, however, it almost always leads to one type of abuse or another. Resentment is a powerful emotion and can lead to very bad shit.
When Sting wrote Every Breathe You Take, he meant it to be creepy and disturbing. Who this fucking is this person to be this obsessed. Yet, for many, they consider a love song.
What is fucking wrong with them?
Yeah. I know, raising awareness is an important step, and breaking silence about this kind of thing is huge. I guess it’s just a wish for direct policy fixes, you know? Because the “parents’ rights” mindset is partly to blame for this, but I’m afraid that a person with the kind of social power that A seems to have had might have gotten away with this even under better circumstances? I dunno. I never know what to think when it comes to parents’ power over children, because I know how many parents get away with things that are illegal already.
Caine #68
A friend of mine, a Jehovah’s Witness, who had a horrible childhood and is still being emotionally abused by her mother told me, when I asked her why she allows this still, that “the Bible says I have to honor my parents.” Apparently also, and maybe especially if, your parents didn’t honor you…because it glorifies God. Or something.
It’s a shame there’s still such a stigma on breaking family ties. It seems to be the source of much emotional pain.
This, this, this.
*sigh*
Did I ever mention that there’s no such thing as parental rights?
Talk about parental privileges and we have something to talk about. You owe them. After all, they didn’t ask to be dumped in this life.*
*yes, I know, lots of women in this world don’t have a choice either.
TLC:
Yep, you’ve nailed it one the head.
Or how about the one where you’re not a “complete” person unless you’ve got a partner? To me, that one is just cruel and ostracizing.
I think a lot of the “parents’ rights” stupidity comes from the belief in that omnipotent motherly instinct that miraculously kicks in the moment an egg is fertilized.
Aquaria:
They’re people, some good, some bad, some indifferent. I can’t fault A when it comes to her profession, she was unbelievably good. She didn’t have a problem there, or with anyone else. Just me.
Along with the various emotions engendered by my father, her family and all that crap, she did genuinely assume, for a long time, that I would end up schizophrenic*. I’m pretty sure that she knew, underneath, that she was using that as an excuse to lock me up, but I doubt she’s ever admitted that to herself.
*When I was 16, she summoned me to her house in Santa Monica and interviewed me for 3 hours, then stared at me for several minutes and said “I think you’ll be okay”.
Beatrice: I wonder how many of them realize that in nature, ‘Motherly instinct’ often involves eating their own young to ‘recycle the nutrients’ when conditions to raise them are less than ideal?
Maternal Instinct: Doesn’t always mean what they think it does.
Guess who finally got his New York photos off his memory cards.
Now to organise them …
I kinda suspected that that might be it. :/ I’ve been in a place somewhat like that recently, trying not to be ridiculously insensitive about a friend’s relationship with hir mother because I have such a relatively good one (a privilege which I’m now much more aware of). I think your comments about A more than anything else have gotten me to grok that sometimes parental love is not a given, and I’m grateful for it.
It’s always important to remember that it’s not just the women with the unwanted pregnancies we’re fighting for, it’s also the children who will otherwise be born unwanted. I sometimes forget that.
I don’t have a ‘maternal instinct’. I never had a ‘biological clock’ either.
Yeah, I know all about that.
It told me I was soon going to be the mum of a healthy, wonderfull child when indeed it was already dead.
My infallible instinct also told me several times that the next fetus had died, too, when indeed she’s sleeping in her bed at this moment.
I tell you what there is: primary caregiver experience.
That, and the biblical bullshit about how important it is to beat your children, sell your daughter into slavery, kill you son, because that’s what god wants.
I do not hate, I only warn you that God hates you and will kill you.
My father a few years ago made us kids agree to be the legal deciders of how to deal with anything if he became medically incapacitated. He so cares about my mother that he didn’t want to put her in a situation where she would have to make such hard decisions. He trusts us kids enough to know we’ll abide by his wishes (pull the plug) and didn’t want my mother torn between his wishes and an emotional pull to keep him on life support well after he was gone.
He also wanted his after-death ‘care’ to be left out in the desert for the coyotes…but recognized there were probably legal issues with that, so I think he’s made pre-arrangements w/ the Neptune Society or such.
Fuck, did I have a privileged childhood with decent parents.
janine, yeah, I am aware of the private
prisonmental health / bootcamp / cure teh ghey industry. It sickens and appalls me.PZ has inspired me to use my powers for good. I’m going to do a scientific literacy survey on my campus (and I can do it because I’m vice president of a student organization, muahahaha).
I was wondering if you all had any questions that you think should be on such a survey.
dontpanic:
My father-in-law decided on two of his sons-in-law for such a decision, as he didn’t want his children to face it or to end up fighting about it. He did choose the two sons-in-law that aren’t mormon*.
*Mister is the oldest of eight kids.
I hope this don’t sound privileged, but all these horrible-parent stories are making me really REALLY appreciate the way my ex goes about parenting. I firmly believe that one of the main reasons the Babby is so freakily well behaved is her policy of not physically disciplining or even yelling or making big displays of anger. She’s intensely protective that way.
Babby has this thing now, whenever she gets mad about not getting her way or something (as all babbies do, even the well behaved ones), she just goes off and finds herself a ‘quiet place’ to hang out and calm down in.
Everybody seems to have cats that act like dogs – am I the only one with dogs that act like cats? We’ve always had Golden Retrievers that love to chase string, leaves, ice cubes, rodents, anything that moves. Our current Golden adds some variety. She likes to lie on her back and use her front paws to play with her toys like an otter.
*****
TLC:
Thank you. That is such a perfect, eloquent expression of my feelings about Valentine’s day.
TLC, the goal here is not for how your child being raised is privileged but for it to be the norm.
I’ve got no idea who Breitbart is, so that video was extremely weird, but I got a big chuckle from the incredulous voice at the end: “I’ve never raped anybody!”
Yeah, because everyone knows rape is hi-larious!
“For the whole number of the ships of the Greeks was as high as thirty thousand, ten of which were selected and set apart.”
That’s all I have to say.
Interestingly enough, that “all I have to say” was incorrect, since there were only thirty times ten ships, not thirty thousand.
I have no idea.
Re afterlife wishes, notes and stuff. My only experience, which is enough, is after the suicide of my last wife. When I finally got over the despair and then rage (almost there), rereading her note to me that she wanted me to find someone and be happy meant a lot. Family has talked a lot about this in groups and just pair bonds and many of the kids have clearly articulated their desires, as have I. I hope it helps us all.
Hmm, do not really want to talk about this anymore right now, but thought it might be useful.
Later
Janine: I see what you mean. Good point. I just didn’t want to come off all smug or anything, while so many others have suffered through things I’d have a hard time even beginning to comprehend.
Nutmeg: We got an elderly golden retriever with a strange behavioral quirk I don’t really understand. She plays a weird ‘earth moving’ game with large rocks, where the drags them around with her forepaws, pausing to clear debris and rip away any plants or roots that might be in the way. There doesn’t appears to be any particular purpose, she just wants to randomly move large rocks around with her paws.
Also I’m glad you found my metaphor as beautiful as I did. :)
This was something I didn’t mention in justifying my perhaps hyperbolic fears of what might happen if the EU collapses. Of course it’s not absolutely unknown for people to switch from left to far right elsewhere, but my impression is that it’s more common in Germany. I also have the impression there’s a nasty xenophobic/antisemitic streak in parts of Die Linke, perhaps related to the way de-Nazification was handled in the GDR.
Link to story at The Daily Beast.
Exchange I just had on facebook:
Husband of friend: “… there isn’t a real man on the planet that hasn’t been told he’s wrong by a woman… some (novices) try to fight it but us ‘seasoned veterans’ just agree as a principle, nod our heads and forget it… afterall; we know we’re right and there’s a game on, why waste the time “arguing”…”
Me: “Right, why have a discussion with a mere woman when you can be condescending? Comments like that, even if they’re meant to be funny, contribute to The Patriarchy. It’s not funny to us. Don’t do it.
Husband: “Yes, it was meant to be sarcastic but having said that; my disgust is with the Womens’ Rights movements STILL trying to claim inequality and victimization. Women have PROVEN to be better than men in almost every situation tested BUT most (that fail to achieve their goals) fail to maintain their passion for their goal; fail and then blame the “male dominated world” or “the Glass Ceiling” or… pick a cliche… this is 2012 and Women have gone far and above “equality” in opportunity… the results are their own individual responsibility… the Nanny State isn’t gonna give them a free ride to the top… sometimes ya gotta work for it… like the men do…”
Wife: “Yikes Liv…anybody who knows my husband (and I thought you did) knows that he was just kidding…”
*sigh* Where do I even start? ‘Please don’t be condescending to women.’ –> ‘Waaaa! *typical MRA rant*’ And if women don’t reach the to of their chosen profession, it’s because they’re lazy?!
Help…
“if the EU collapses” – talking of which, there are large-scale riots in Athens, with several buildings set on fire, while the Parliament debates the latest diktat from the “troika” (European commission, European Central Bank, IMF) demanding yet further cuts when the economy is already in free-fall. Evidently a lot of Greeks feel they have nothing to lose.
firefly:
Any time you hear someone use the phrase real man, you know they’re an asshole.
Now I’m reminded of http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2011/07/20/is-it-cold-in-here/ and the ensuing discussion.
Aquaria:
I have met ones who were intelligent, compassionate, honest, helpful, self-aware, and not full of either crackpot theories or unchecked privilege. But they are in a minority.
TLC:
Probably roughly the same percentage who are aware of all the permutations of marriage that have existed across time and geography, versus “It’s been one man, one woman for 10,000 years!!”
Firefly: Eesh. And his wife thinks it’s all a big joke…
Callum, have you gotten tired of mansplaining to the rest of FTB how Penn Jillette isn’t really a misogynist for using the word “cunt”?
We’re watching the Walking Dead marathon that’s leading up to the new episode tonight and Mrs. BDC just said:
I have to agree.
Who raised these zombies? Shameful.
Well, it makes you wonder how cutting the minimum wage by a full 25% is going to fill the cash-box, reduce the debt and get the economy going again.
Simply a full-front attack on the lives of those who have nothing done but worked hard.
TLC
I don’t doubt that your Ex is a fantastic mum, but please don’t be so quick in chalking down the Babby’s wonderfull behaviour solely on that (and, implying that other parents must have done something wrong if they don’t). Kids are just different.
Romney
Not as good as Santorum, but it’s something.
It’s currently 9th on Google search for Romney.
KG,
I’m no friend of Die Linke, but your impression is mistaken. They have always been ardently anti-Zionist, probably a GDR legacy, and sometimes they seem to have crossed the boundaries into antisemitism territory (though I don’t have the time to examine all the incidents, they got into big fights with the Jewish Council, which accused them of being Anti-Semites. Sometimes Anti-Zionism is equated with Anti-Semitism by defenders of Israel, so I can’t say).
I don’t think they’re particularly xenophobic though, unless you construe their opposition to the “neo-liberal global world order” as such. Their party statements are often about the fight AGAINST xenophobia.
That said, there is a xenophobic segment of voters of the left, also among Social Democratic voters. Probably why Thilo Sarrazin (the guy, a former Bundesbank board member and finance minister of the state of Berlin, who wrote this book about how Jews are inherently more intelligent and how Islamic immigrants were dumbing Germany down) has only been “neutralised” in that he won’t have any meaningful post in the party ever again, but has actually not been expelled.
Giliell: Yeah, I think that’s what I was trying to get at. Some children have difficulties and issues no matter how many things you do ‘right’. I really hope I didn’t come off that way, all smug and shit. Luck has a huge amount to do with it, no questions.
TLC
I wouldn’t call it “luck”. Because although my kids can both be difficult in different ways at times (I sometimes nickname them “The Passion of Christ” and “The Wrath of God”), it is also what makes them great in other ways.
Thanks pelamun,
I’ll try and recall what incident it was made me think that about Die Linke.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart
I did see that. Interesting.
Without the sugary, mormon-preferred lemon jello the dish might be almost acceptable as food.
However, if you served unsweetened jello to mormons I think it might cause them to go into shock.
pelamun, thanks for the background info. I did watch a fairly good German movie dramatization of the RAF story (not the most recent one), and have been on a few wikiwalks through that period of German history. Fascinating times.
TLC:
So, what’s everyone doing for Valloween?
One of the most popular wedding songs, no less *spits*
StarStuff!:
Tide comes in, tide goes out. Explain that.
JeffreyD *hugs*
Janine @60
Good timing, Janine. One of the most infamous of the mormon bootcamps, the one dubbed “The Mormon Gulag” by kids who have survived it, is in the news again.
link
The Mormon Gulag used to call itself “Utah Boys Ranch,” but now calls itself “West Ridge Academy.”
On January 12th of this year, a former inmate sued the academy for sexual abuse. Systematic sexual and physical abuse has been claimed by several victims.
That’s right, boys from other states are being sent to Utah for that special, mormon-flavored abuse.
Scroll down at the link given above to view video.
There are also other links on the site that detail the gulag’s mormon underpinnings.
DrBunsen: I have no valloween plans. My ex hates the tradition as much as I do… possibly even more. So as usual, no VD-day date for me.
Oh how will I possibly stand not being expected to buy her something useless and shiny? My heart breaks into a thousand weeping fragments!
Mr. and I ignore V-Day and that is an contract not to be breached.
But my friends will be getting small fizzy candy hearts. I expect something like Jelly Beans in return. I think it’s much nicer to make it a day for friends.
Mister and I are coming up on our 33rd anniversary next month and we never did a single thing for Valentine’s day.
I have to meet with my professor on Valentine’s Day. So I guess my plans are… pulse-pounding terror.
I agree, Giliell. If VD-day was a holiday about showing our FRIENDS how much we love them, I might actually like it.
Great. Now I have But I’m a Cheerleader! in my head.
Hey StarStuff, how was the SlutWalk? I never got around to mentioning it, but I helped organize the VT SlutWalk and it was great.
There was an article in the NYT just recently about training an adult uncooperative cat to accept a leash.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/garden/training-a-cat-to-walk-on-a-leash.html
Basically: get the cat used to wearing it by rewarding the cat with a nummy treat (do it when the cat is hungry) for each step of acceptance. Get the cat used to just having it on at first, and move on from there in steps.
Mr Kristinc has taken Valentine’s day as a day to give me chocolate for many years now. Not the only day, just *a* day. And not cheesy valentine chocolate, nice stuff that I usually don’t get to enjoy. I guess he’s sort of converted it into Chocolate Day, which is fine by me.
SC:
Hee. There are worse things.
Documenting the mormon connection/domination at West Ridge Academy in Utah, a gulag where “troubled teens” are abused:
Note that Mitt Romney is a friend of Lavar Christensen.
@ SallyStrange
It was great, but cold. Lots of people showed up. And I got the cops called on me by a troll! But I didn’t get in any trouble (because I didn’t do anything illegal).
Videos exposing the lies told, and the abuse perpetrated by the Utah Boys Ranch/West Ridge Academy can be viewed here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/UtahBoysRanchNetwork/videos
The video Clearing Time: Fighting a Mormon is especially telling.
For Valentines Day, I send my lovely children gifts. I buy myself chocolate.
Wow, am I not surprised to see some of the tone trolls at Libby Anne’s. Purpleshoes pulls that shit semi-regularly at Pandagon. Tekanji‘s last two blog posts at Shrub.com were about how meeeaaaannnnn the feminist blogosphere has become. I’m sure the “ableism” to which they refer is the word “stupid” or somesuch.
I may read an OP over there once in a while but I think I’ll avoid the comments.
Rev. BDC: I LOL’d so hard at that.
Owlmirror: Thanks.
This is what happens when a poll doesn’t get pharyngulated.
Starstuff, real life trolls? How hilarious! Otherwise, glad to know it went well. Since then, my little feminist organizing group has gone on to make national news (they were the ones criticizing that University of VT’s fraternity “rape survey). Awesomesauce. :)
Now that I’ve moved, I need to make some new feminist connections.
I call bullshit. I’ve had more than one cat follow me around with utter devotion and at least one that practically collapsed with angst if I looked at him crosswise.
The basic idea of training is sound though. I really like clicker training. The clicker is a refinement that seems to help a lot in getting a specific idea across — oh, you want exactly this thing right here, okay.
As an extreme amateur I’ve used the clicker to teach most of my cats some basic behaviors just for fun and to keep their busy little brains occupied at something that’s not getting into mayhem. I don’t find them different at all to train than my dog. Boredom and frustration are pitfalls for both kinds of animal.
My current project is teaching my brainiest and most troublesome cat to walk with me on a leash. He didn’t understand he should follow where it tugs, he wasn’t used to it following him wherever he goes and he still doesn’t expect it to tangle around his legs. None of these are unique to cats, though — puppies who have never been leashed often respond the same way, and they learn.
Gah, Valentine’s Day. I wish it were possible to spend that day at home, lolling around, with no obligation to send candy or whatnot to anyone. Or, maybe, lightly buzzed so that all mention of VD goes over my head. I can’t even say the bright side is that candy goes on sale, because I don’t eat much of it anymore and besides, candy sales happen before and after Halloween, too.
——————————-
Soul mates? Well, if my parents and brother and SIL are anything to go by, it’s possible, but rare. Mom, I think, is still trying to break into online dating, but I doubt she’ll want to marry again. Or if she does, it may not compare to what she had with Dad. Brother and SIL haven’t been married long, but unless one of them dies early, I think they’ll be together for decades to come.
No such lofty goals for me. If I can just enjoy life and fill it with people I love and things I enjoy doing, that ought to be enough. I figure Mom and brother were flat-out lucky to have met people they could honestly see themselves being married to for years and years.
As for songs and other sources of romance, I find myself looking askance when I hear lyrics proclaiming “I’m all you’ll ever need,” and “we belong with each other” but aside from that, I haven’t lost my taste for many popular songs dealing with love. Romantic comedies are no longer welcome on my shelf, except for those very few I already have – I guess it’s because they’re the only ones I can bear to watch, however rarely.
Now, showing friends and family how much we love them, that I can get behind. Really, I think rather than do away with Valentine’s Day completely (mostly because that would be near-impossible and would face lots of opposition), it’d be better to make a shift towards the day being about love in general, not just romantic love.
I’d love to just get my cat out of the habit of suckling herself. I know it’s a comforting mechanism, but she’s spending all night doing it right next to my ear, and she’s slurpy and loud. Physically stopping her doesn’t seem to help much, nor does moving her to the foot of the bed every time she starts up. This is happening at least a dozen times a night at the moment, but I don’t have the heart to shut her out of the bedroom entirely.
This school year is turning into the year of protests for me. First Occupy, then SlutWalk, and now protesting the “Genocide Awareness Project”.
Caine, #115
Yeah, as soon as I saw that I dreaded the rest of his post.
Ms Daisy Cutter, #116
Depressing, right? Wishing to live in a world where being condescending to women is not considered a joke is too much to ask. And asking to not do it is obviously the same as attacking men. Of course.
(By the way, funny how this whole exchange got started in the first place. I posted that I told Alain de Botton on Twitter that he was wrong in his latest book, which is what prompted the ‘no real mean’ reply by the husband. de Botton now wants me to e-mail him why I think he’s wrong. And I will.)
@Carlie, #146
My cat used to suck her toes. :) It was kind of cute at first but did get annoying. I would just gently stop her and play with her for a little while. It took a few months but she stopped doing it.
drbunsen,
if you’re interested in that era, I can recommend – probably – the best book that has ever been written on the RAF:
Aust, Stefan (September 2008) (in German). Der Baader-Meinhof-Komplex. Hamburg: Hoffmann und Campe. ISBN 3455500295. (English translation The Baader-Meinhof Complex published by The Bodley Head, ISBN 1847920454) (Published earlier, but maybe it’s a new edition)
It has also been made into a movie, but the book is thorough and an enjoyable read.
Regarding Breitbart: That video is just screaming to be remixed, isn’t it? He’s yelling the same things over and over and over. Then there’s that hypnotic drumbeat created by the protestors.
Roger Ebert on dealing with creationists.
My most best beloved cat ever suckled on his wrist. He did it all his life and had a permanent yellow spot there.
My aforementioned brainy cat (his name is Two) has abandonment issues a mile wide, and he prefers to do his self-soothing by mouthing on me. I had to teach him to be gentle, so now he delicately nibbles my thumb or holds the side of my hand in his mouth. I’ve known him to fall asleep holding on to one of my fingers with his tail curled around my wrist to hold me in place, like a monkey tail.
That guy is incredibly annoying.
Dark context aside, this did make me smile.
Mrs M and I once peed in a toilet in Kenya which was notable for
(a) its immense mosquito population, (b) a complete lack of water supply (ours notwithstanding), and, (c) the casual insouciance of the cockroach that was sitting on top of the unflushed Mount Fuji of poo and paper.
Come what may, you know where the arthropods are going to be.
Wow. Looks like the politics tag editor at Tumblr has some issues when it comes to women. And Tumblr has a lot of feminist bloggers.
Ebert or Breitbart?
Previous Thread:
Ms. Daisy Cutter, you need not apologise to me; I am merely appalled and disgusted. It’s the Fabric of Reality that you are undermining. To say nothing of the moral and ethical underpinnings of Society
–
And particularly Horses bearing peas.
–
Sir Shplane, sorry to hear about your hip. Morphine is awesome stuff. Can’t recommend it highly enough.
–
Husband and I tried to make mead, once. For some reason, it didn’t ferment, even though we followed the instructions scrupulously. Way I figure it, the yeasty beasties detected my presence, and committed suicide. In solidarity with all the yeast breads that have kicked the Big One in my hands.
I do okay with cordials, though.
–
Great letter, Josh!
–
*gulping frantically and scrolling quickly past Jello Salad Nightmare Time*
–
And a surplus of chocolate is a “problem” that is easily taken care of. *burp*
Except for that low-grade, “wax-lips” “chocolate”. Feed it to the peas!
–
The Occupiers should’ve started singing Show Me the Way to Go Home at the drunken prick.
Hopefully Breitbart. Despite the fact he gets a few things a little off in that post, Ebert is good. At least in my not so humble opinion.
Oh, I understand now, the protesters are freaks, rapists and destroying the world while the bankers who collapsed the world economy are this guy’s big buddies … in his retarded wet dreams. Another religio/conservanut who worships at the Church of the Big Corporation.
Atticus Dogsbody:
Jesus fuckin’ Christ, lose the gendered insults.
Rev. BDC:
Yep. I enjoyed that post.
cicely:
It ain’t done yet!
My mother-in-law gave me this flyer of war-time Jell-o recipes that had been torn out of a magazine. It contains such descriptive gems as Jell-O’s strawberry, cherry, and raspberry flavors are “artificially enhanced” for flavor-plus! The recipes don’t look too bad, though– apple Jello-o mold, Jell-o plum pudding, Jell-o sunshine pie*, and crested banana dessert (banana slices in berry flavored Jell-o, served in a cocktail glass).
You know what I’ve learned today? Mention a fascination with old cookbooks and moms and grandmamas and aunties will come out of the woodwork to pass along old books. My MIL gave me the 1950 Betty Crocker’s Picture Cook Book and 300 Ways to Serve Eggs** published for Culinary Arts Institute (One of America’s foremost organizations devoted to the science of Better Cookery) in 1940.
*My next big pie adventure is making a really really real sunshine pie.
**It has a beverage section! Boo yeah!
Anyone else watching Bafta?
Hey, I like February. It happens to be both my brother’s and my own birth month. I turn 17 in 11 days.
Yes, I’m aware I’m a bit younger than much of the population here.
Rev,
I totally agree. I’ve always like his writing style and he’s smart. A little bit of an accomodationist, but I can life with that from him.
StarStuff, that wikipedia page needed a little edit :)
And older than other bits of the population here.
Well Chris Brown managed to not beat any women at the Grammys… so far.
Or at least that’s what I hear.
sigh.
Audley:
I recently read his memoir, Life Itself. I recommend it.
I dunno about that. I haven’t seen any 15 year olds on here – perhaps trolls who are 15 years old in emotional and intellectual maturity, but probably not too many people physically that age :P
drbunsen:
:D
Rip, you are not the only teen to comment here. I think reality enforcer is younger.
Where is Mattir?
Rip Steakface:
I’m sure you don’t. One of the regulars is younger than you and started posting when they were 14, frinst.
Yes.
Janine:
PET, most likely.
Caine:
Excellent. I just checked and there’s a Kindle version that I will download after I get paid tomorrow. :)
Caught up at last to the point at which I wasn’t caught up yesterday! Hurray!
–
I heard about Whitney Houston at the Game last night. We spent a few minutes on reminiscing on her music and life.
Then we went back to toying with the Deck of Many Things.
–
In the by-gone years of my teen-hood, it was almost certainly turnips.
And you can’t make me. *sticking out tongue*
–
John Morales:
Try this:
“Celebrity” can lead to a false sense of familiarity, as if they were actually part of our lives, which in turn may lead to sadness when the “familiar” person dies. There’s also a bit of nostalgia at work, memories associated with the past wherein her music had personal impact.
And that is why we may grieve more for the death of a particular celebrity than we do for the other, likewise dead, people who we neither know or “know”.
</unintendedly-pompous-sounding attempted explanation>
–
Social “tone deafness”?
–
Onward to Teh New Thread!
Breitbart.
Don’t do this.
Speaking as the 17 year walking partner of a terrier-poodle mutt, I submit that they may never learn this.
Well, I do have t-shirts older than you.
Hope I’m not too late for the “things entombed in jello” thread, but someone I know has a recipe for beef liver and kidney aspic I could post if I can get my hands on it.
Dang, a little late for the actually discussion (but this is TET), fortunately, the Redhead and I have discussed some potential end-of-life issues, and we both agreed that with a reasonable prognosis for recovery, keep the other alive. It looks like “we can always hope”, write the DNR order, save the money, let nature happen, and go on with the remainder of the life you have left the best you can, including another partner.
If another stroke happened to her last month, I might have been faced with such a decision. But it didn’t, and she is still with us. Because of that, I will make a little more fuss on VD than usual. She already has her present. A sniny new sling for her weak arm with a thumb loop so her arm doesn’t slide out of the sling, causing wrist and other joint pains on her weak side. She was raving and bragging about it all afternoon on the phone and to visitors.
@Caine, Fleur du Mal: Jesus fuckin’ Christ, lose the gendered insults.
No. The cap fits too well.
a spiteful or contemptible man often having some authority http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prick
@Atticus Dogsbody
You know, flaming asshole works just as well, without the problematic connotation.
Atticus Dogsbody:
Oh, poor dear, can’t come up with a non-gendered insult. Tsk. We don’t do gendered insults here. You can get a clue, or get whacked with a clue by four.
Boots and Cats.
Classical Cipher:
Seriously. First we get the gendered insult, then the ableist one. Some people…
It does fit, and to be honest I think the main reason not to use “prick” round here is simply to avoid the extreme tedium of people who always argue that it’s just as bad as “cunt” and you’re the sexist and all that shitte. It’s not actually a dreadful insult in itself because sexism isn’t egalitarian. Kicking up isn’t kicking down. But… such fucking tedium. OK, I will not say prick lest I inadvertently summon the flock of MRAs.
“Retarded”, on the other hand – that’s just an insult to honest and decent mentally retarded people everywhere who do the best with the sucky hand life has dealt them. Try using “ignoramus”. Or perhaps “herpderp”, as it seems the kids nowadays are saying, dog love ’em.
Nerd:
If anyone deserves that, it’s you and Redhead.
Aaaaw, you’re a sweet and thoughtful husband.
Santorum is getting the santorum beaten out of him in Maine.
Alethea, gendered is gendered, full stop. There’s a wealth of colourful, creative insults out there, no need to stick with the body bits.
Good.
I’m partial to Ms. Daisy Cutter’s coinage (I think?) “shitbegonias.” (Ms. Daisy Cutter, you have been on a roll lately with the hilarious phrasing. Jeez.)
I personally like “sack of dried santorum” or “santorum for brains” (Notice that this not only insults the target, but also Rick ghey seks is like man on dog Santorum)
For someone like Breitbart or Santorum, I’ll go with putrid, festering, pus-filled ass pimple.
It personally hurts Ricky every time someone uses his last name to refer to a mixture of feces, semen, and lubrication.
That’s all the justification I need to spread the word about Santorum. It fits so nicely too… fits right up there with ‘Smegma’ and ‘vomitorium’.
Doesn’t it totally sound like it should be an ancient greek or roman phrase for something revolting and vile?
Yes, sure, “prick” is gendered and I don’t need it, and I don’t use it here. But while it is indeed gendered, it’s also not sexist. Like cracker vs nigger, they’re not actually the same thing at all, it’s just a false equivalence in the armory of racists. And, mutatis mutandis, sexists. I don’t actually think that calling someone a dickhead is notably worse than calling them an arsehole, but I simply prefer not to give them the weapon.
And, of course, shitbegonia is just so much more elegant.
Yeah, Santorum does sound like an Ancient Roman term… perhaps because of the similarity to sanatorium.
Oh that reminds me of something hilarious. I was talking to my mom and said “I don’t wish to be any person’s master, and I recognize no person’s mastery over me.” And she got that tittery sound in her voice, like she thinks she’s being all clever, and was like “Oh, you know who else said that? Let me think… RICK SANTORUM.” (with the implied HAHAHAHAHA GOTCHA! left unspoken)
“Yeah, I believe it when he says he doesn’t want to be anyone’s master, after all he just wants to be president of the united states!”
My mom instantly fell silent and retired to her room for the evening. I love you, mom, but fucking TAKE THAT!
That’s pithy.
A. R:
Of course not!
Okay, that sounds… frankly disgusting.
If you find it, post it!
*warning: possible trigger for people with body image issues, eating disorders, etc.*
I’d be very interested in hearing the threadizens’ opinions on the whole self-esteem movement. I was shopping (highly out of character for me) with a couple of female friends yesterday, and we talked a bit about body image and clothing choices and all that stuff.
When I was a kid in school, I usually encountered the concept of self-esteem in the form of teachers telling me to believe that I was good at things I wasn’t good at. This seemed highly illogical to me – there was no point in pretending that I was good at baseball, it just wasn’t true. As a result, I’ve always been pretty skeptical of the whole idea of just thinking you’re beautiful the way you are. There’s no point in pretending that I don’t have flaws, it’s just not true.
Once I got a little older, I realized that the only kind of self-esteem that made sense to me was recognizing the things that you actually ARE good at. Learning new skills made me more confident in those particular skills, but it didn’t change the fact that I’m terrible at sports. In terms of body image, on a good day I can appreciate my body for the things it does, but that doesn’t make my thighs any less chubby.
So I’m curious about what a bunch of skeptics and rationalists think about self-esteem, body image, and related topics. Thoughts?
Honest question: Can you explain how it’s sexist?
uh, no, I agree that it’s not sexist. Yeah, “pithy” is a good thing: ‘Concise and forcefully expressive’; ‘tersely cogent’.
My sister’s oldest friend often makes a jello-pretzel salad. It takes sweet & savory to a new low. People love it.
Audely: Yeah, one of my English cousins has the recipe. I believe she found it in a cookbook in the old servants quarters of their house. (Not that they have a massive home, but in the days of aspic, most people of even modest means had a small staff)
Well, part of it, Nutmeg, is that a lot of the things that people consider flaws in terms of physical appearance are often arbitrary, socially constructed, oppressive crap based on an overly narrow understanding of attractiveness, which is constructed in such a way that it is literally unattainable for everyone.
Sorry. Thought you were being sarcastic, for no reason whatsoever.
Since it strikes me that you’re contrasting a body that does things well with a body that looks good, I’ll point out that your thighs don’t have to be less chubby for you to feel more beautiful (as well as more competent/strong). There’s a lot of writing by the fat acceptance community on discovering and internalizing forms of beauty other than slenderness.
Chubby thighs are not a universal “flaw” set in stone, and the point of body acceptance is to understand that you’re not any more flawed than anyone else, and thus essentially okay.
My thoughts on body acceptance and self esteem are basically that they’re a tiny drop in a bucket versus the driving constant rainstorm that is the fashion-beauty-commercial-complex, which can’t survive without essentially making us feel constantly like shit so we constantly seek to buy solutions. The most body acceptance and self esteem can do is be a resource that hopefully enables us to keep swimming upstream and not drown. (Uh, mixed metaphors, sorry.)
Nutmeg: I’m a guy. But I know body image issues.
I’m still genuinely surprised whenever people who see my photo online find anything attractive about me at all.
I’ve always been skinny and boney and white. Pale white. I remember people in the locker room, whenever we’d go on an elementary school field trip to the pool, telling me I make them kind of sick to look at. I’m a guy. Guys are supposed to be big and musclebound… if you’re a guy, even being really fat is preferable to being a bag of bones.*
Worse, I don’t have much body hair either. I’m not manly. I still look like a teenager at 27. My facial hair is laughable as any 17 year old’s attempt at sideburns.
*Yeah, I know, pure horseshit, but these are the messages I grew up with.
It’s only recently I’ve learned to love being skinny. I’ll always envision myself as a horrifying sub-human wraith, no matter how many people tell me that I’m kind of cute, or that they think too much body hair on a guy is kinda gross, or that they love the way my hair looks. I’ll always feel subhuman and repulsive.
It’s just that now I’ve learned to like being subhuman and repulsive.
I wonder if this is part of why dating is so difficult for me?
Self-esteem is about having respect for yourself. It’s believing that yes, you should be treated with respect and dignity by others and that no one has the right to demean you or otherwise treat you badly.
Crap. I worded this badly at my 211:
A better way to phrase that would be, to understand that no one is without flaws, that the flawless bodies and faces we’re constantly presented with are impossible lies, and to come to peace with our human and realistic bodies.
Gary Oldman, on last week’s “Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me,” said that when he’s naked, he looks like “a plucked chicken.”
I think you’re in fine company, TLC.
As for self-esteem via believing you’re good at things you’re not good at, that’s silly and probably counterproductive, but I think it’s important to try to take some of the importance off “being good at things.” Personally, I’m working really hard on that with bellydance right now, which is even more weird and tricky when I’m practicing to get better at it. On the one hand, like, I like mastering things. I get frustrated when I have trouble with things. But on the other hand, as Giliell pointed out earlier, I didn’t join bellydance to become a pro bellydancer, I joined it to try to work on my coordination and get some hopefully stress-relieving exercise doing something I enjoy. What does it matter if I have trouble with hip drops? I acknowledge that I do, I work on it, but in the end it’s just a fact about me with no huge importance. Same with poetry – it’s clunky, I don’t “get” how to do it, but it doesn’t mean I can’t write it and have fun/get emotions out doing that. Whose business is it, really, if I’m no good? And those things that I have trouble with that actually do have importance to my life – like grocery shopping and eating properly – it’s important both to acknowledge that I have problems with them (and thereby get some help) and to not beat myself up about needing it. It’s all stuff I’m still working on psychologically, but I think I’m intellectually clear about it.
Mister doesn’t have much body hair at all. I like that. I don’t care for hairy bods. That, like most everything else in life is a personal preference.
Me, I have next to no body hair. I shave my lower legs maybe once every 6 months (never have shaved above the knee, nothin’ to shave) and under my arms, even less – about once every 10 to 12 months.
intellectual vs psychological is a good point to bring up, CC. Intellectually I know there’s absolutely nothing wrong with how I look. Enough people online have seen me in photos and on webcam and told me as such. I’ve even been called ‘Beautiful’. Strange but true.
Psychologically… I’m a gross subhuman sewer-mutant, the kindest thing I can do to girls is not make them have to see me or be around me.
I should stop now. Last time I started talking like this… something really nasty happened. I’m sure you all know what I mean. Eeeuughhh. *shudder*
FTR I’m slowly but surely getting better at this.
Caine:
QFT
This is a lesson I wish I had learned much earlier than I (eventually) did.
Intellectually I should have a freakin’ doctorate in this self acceptance stuff, at least body acceptance; psychologically I can make it only a certain number of trips to the mall before I break. (But that number is greater than 1! Which is an improvement!)
Focusing on the improvements is important. “2 steps forward and 1 step back will still get you there eventually.”
Classical Cipher
Word! All the fun comes from trying to do things well, rather than doing them well*. Maybe not all of it, but a lot of it.
Not for nothing, but I installed a ceiling fan in the bathroom today. Shockingly enough, the fucker works, and the house hasn’t burned down to my knowledge. Did I mention it has a light? Yup. Illuminates while vacuuming away unwanted smells and moisture. It is quite possible the only thing that I have achieved of any value in quite some time.
This may be small potatoes to many of you, but I have made complete and utter wrecks of simpler projects. The cost to me is lots of itchy fiberglass embedded in my arms and hands. And I think my right earlobe. Imma go home and take a shower in a comfortably lit and humidity controlled environment, and maybe I’ll itch less.
*The thrill I get from failure might not be completely beneficial for me. But I have fun.
Letting go of the need to be good at things, of course, has the side benefit of making it more likely that we try more, diverse new things — including things we do turn out to be good at.
Wow, thanks for all the comments! That’s exactly what I was interested in, hearing people’s takes on this. I’m trying to determine what a rational view would be (though I doubt I’ll reach any conclusions anytime soon).
CC:
kristinc:
If I’m reading both of your comments correctly, I can relate to the anger that I sense there. I hate how we’re treated as bad, inferior people for things that we can’t change. I got a lot of that in gym class for having asthma and being uncoordinated. A particularly horrible middle school gym teacher made me feel like I was a terrible person because I couldn’t keep up on the runs (because I couldn’t breathe!). On the appearance side of things, it makes me furious that people with acne are regarded as disgusting and laughable. Clear-skinned people can’t seem to understand that severe acne is a genetic predisposition, not because of poor hygiene, and not something that will clear up with a little over-the-counter facewash.
I’m lucky enough that I have minimal trouble controlling my weight with diet and exercise. But I’d guess that people who are genetically predisposed to be overweight feel the same way about fat-shaming that I feel about acne-shaming.
TLC: Thanks for the guy perspective. It’s good to be reminded that guys face pressure and unrealistic standards too. (And as a fellow pasty-white person, I feel your pain. My tan is other people’s “You’re really pale. Are you feeling all right?”)
Caine:
I can agree with that 100%. I don’t have a lot of trouble believing that people should treat each other with respect. I think maybe I have more trouble believing that I should treat myself with respect, and figuring out what that would mean. I doubt that I’m alone in this.
CC:
That is a good point, and something I struggle with. I tend not to do things, especially things someone might see me doing, unless I think I have a reasonable chance of being good at them. My one real exception is duck-hunting. I’m a terrible shot (no spatial reasoning skills), but I love being outdoors, and I’m good at other aspects of the hunt. I feel pretty bad about my shooting, but I try to focus on my ability to pick a good spot and set decoys effectively.
And yes, there’s a big difference between the intellectual and the psychological.
Aaahhh, hunting.
It helps to remember that even the siberian tiger and the african lion fail on more hunts than they succeed. For tigers I heard it was something like 19 out of 20 hunts that end in fail and humiliation.
Me, I mainly hunt rabbits, and remembering that the tiger fails 19 out of 20 hunts is immensely comforting when my legs are full of thorns up to the shins and my face is sticky and itchy with sweat.
But I don’t hunt to please anyone but myself. It’s not like anyone would see my technique to criticize anyways, unless they were stalking me. And unless that person is David Attenborough, that would just be weird.
Hunting: In my experience, about half of all actual (i.e. non-driven) hunts fail, especially when grouse or pheasants are involved.
@nutmeg, #224
You’re not, don’t worry.
It took me until last year (I’m 35) to really figure out what it meant for me. Body image issues induced by comments from my mother and sister, and being in an emotionally abusive relationship (which I escaped after 3 years but didn’t forgive myself for until last year) were the two main causes for low self-confidence. Learning to stand up for myself, and watching my self-respect grow as a consequence was really exciting. It still is! Now, I can be around skinny music stars all day and it doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I know who I am, like who I am, and make it clear I wish to be treated with respect. So far, so good. :)
A.R: If I could claim a 50 percent success rate, I’d feel pretty damn good about myself.
This year I’m gonna try to master the rabbit stick/boomerang, see if that gives me an advantage.
TLC: You’re using a stick? I use a 12 gauge double I inherited from my grandfather.
TLC, A.R.: Yeah, hunting has a pretty low success rate. I hunt with my dad, who’s a fantastic shot and has been hunting for 30 years longer than me, so I have to remember that I’m comparing myself to an unrealistic standard. I can often out-fish him, though.
I’d like to try hunting grouse someday. They’re not too hard to find around here, but I’d need to learn how.
I’d also like to try hunting deer, but I’m still living with my folks, and my mom doesn’t like venison. I think deer hunting would teach me a lot of different outdoor skills.
A.R: no, I’m just gonna try a stick this year.
Last time, I was throwing a railroad spike. Nailed a pretty decent sized male. It’s true, btw, that male rabbits have a pre-penile scrotum.
Nutmeg: Where do you live? (just a State, or even region would be enough) if that is not too much to ask.
TLC: Have you considered a firearm and/or bow?
A.R: Can’t use firearms or bows where all the rabbits are found, out here at least. Only weapons that don’t have a risk of killing innocent people or damaging property if I miss.
In some ways, I like what I do better anyways. Br’er rabbit gets a fairer chance to escape, and I don’t have to worry about oiling, maintaining, or keeping a firearm loaded.
Plus… who the fuck is gonna make me get a license for a stupid stick?
I think it’s less anger and more resigned bitterness, honestly. The fashion-beauty-commercial-complex is what it is. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon. Yay capitalism?
TLC: Ah, ok. Perhaps a blowgun with some form of poison dart? That could be quite fun, both to make, and use.
A.R: Maybe… though since I eat my kills (obviously)… I don’t think poison would be a good idea.
My ‘hunting territory’ is the railroad tracks. Already got kicked off there by a stupid cop once. If I could, I’d get permission from the local farmers to hunt their back fields, but I don’t think that’ll happen. No connections.
Pity them, not only would I hunt rabbits and not touch or interfere with their crops at all, I’d de-pigeon their barns for free.
A.R.: Given what I’ve said about my occupation, I probably shouldn’t be too specific about my location. I’m in Canada, but I’d rather not say more than that here.
Goodnight, all.
TLC: Somehow Amazonians use poisons on their quarry and are able to eat it. Perhaps the cooking destroys the toxin. (Th think they mostly use alkaloids) I’ll stick with my matched Purdeys though.
Nutmeg: Hmmm, without knowing too much about Canadian hunting regulations, I can say that deer should be hunted with either a bow, or a rifle (slug guns in more populated areas). And that deer hunting involves finding where deer travel, hiding yourself there, and waiting for one to walk by without their noticing you, and within range or your chosen weapon. Success varies.
matched Purdeys? What’s a purdey?
I once ran down and caught a young bunny by hand. But I decided to release it unharmed. Sometimes, I just want to hunt… I don’t necessarily want to kill anything.
Once, in the woods, an idiotic black, gray, and white merganser-type duck came flapping and tumbling out of the trees. The thing was like Daffy, before he became a bitter asshole. I cornered and caught the goofy thing.
I consider that one a successful hunt… even though that assinine bird went half-flying and half splashing across a pond not ten seconds later. I wonder if that ridiculous creature learned anything?
TLC: Purdey is an English double gun manufacturer. I inherited a matched set of 12 gauges from my grandfather, who received them as a gift.
oh, and that is a very interesting duck story.
Good morning
re: body image
Sigh, can’t stand this fucker right now. There’s no point in denying obesity. And it’s letting me down health-wise. But I really have to push that to the back right now, there’s only so much you can tackle at one point.
But I can still enjoy things. I still enjoy dancing, I still enjoy other stuff. I only wished I could go back to archery sometimes.
Thanks, A.R.
I’m assuming, from what little I know of duck hunting, that being that this was a ‘toothy’ pointy-beaked ‘diving duck’ type, that it would have tasted kinda fishy if I had decided to eat it?
TLC: Yes, it would have been quite revolting. I’ve never been much for duck hunting myself, but I have a friend who is, and he actually carries a pair of binoculars to identify incoming ducks so he can choose the best tasting ones! I’ve heard Canvasback is quite good, but as they aren’t terribly common, as a conservationist, I am not sure I could take one.
Maybe, maybe not, but for sure there’s a big point to not letting it be the center of your life or your identity.
kristinc
You’re absolutely right, and, yes, I have pushed it back on the agenda. I really, really, really have more important problems. It’s like having an overgrown backyard when your roof is leaking. But it still bothers me and it bothers me healthwise.
I know somebody who simply has come to term with the fact that obese is what she is and she’s a damn attractive woman, just because she radiates confidence.
The fact that my health is letting me down in other ways is much more troublesome than my size.
A really, really upsetting story:
“Human experiments: First, do harm” http://www.nature.com/news/human-experiments-first-do-harm-1.9980
In the 1940s, US doctors deliberately infected thousands of Guatemalans with venereal diseases. The wound is still raw.
Thanks, cicely — precisely what I was looking for.
Possibly. I am not normal, that much I know, and yes, I am anti-social.
I wasn’t kidding when (some time ago) I indicated I have to make an effort not to unintendedly upset people.
I emphatically note that it is not the case that I generally like upsetting people; rather, the reverse.
(I’ll again note I really don’t like being disliked, but I dislike lying a lot more. I have at times myself been upset by the reaction to some of my opinions)
—
Regarding Daniel Fincke, I don’t share others’ low opinion of him; I quite like his blog and in particular his attitude to blogging, and it’s my third favourite blog here at FTB, after Pharyngula and Butterflies and Wheels.
(Close call, though, Alethian Worldview is up there in my estimation, too)
@ James
[the “Sandra” debate]
I did not respond to the issue that Sandra raised of gay marriage being equivalent to polygamy. For one, I think it so OTT ridiculous and also because it was addressed here already. What I would like to point out is that the idea is one that was held out by Santorum:
Link here.
If she is feeding herself on that dreadful stuff, I would just like to say:”Eeeuw!”
I think I’m going to sit in a corner and sob quietly:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/12/alleged-rape-victim-arrested-ireland
I would sob, I would rage, but I’m still… What the hell?!
I mean, if she keeps refusing to testify, how long can she be kept in prison?
I can’t imagine any world where arresting the rape victim for failing to appear at the trial of her rapists and proceeding to treat her like a criminal makes sense.
Isn’t it enough that they scared her badly enough to get away with it in the end? Why does she suddenly need to go to jail?
Dear Ireland
In recent years, you kicked some ass. You told those assholes from the Vatican that they can stuff it where the sun doesn’t shine.
I understand that you’ve come a long way in a short time. You were thrown into the 20th century quickly and unexpectedly. When it started with you in about 1980, it had been around for 80 years in the rest of the western world already.
I know it’s not easy.
I remember Miss X.
I remember that I double checked that it had indeed become legal for me to take a three months supply of the Pill with me and I wouldn’t be arrested on arrival.
You’ve done a good job catching up.
But now you need to do one more thing: Leave the 20th century and join us in the 21st where rape victims are not fucking criminalized and imprisoned.
Dear Ireland, I count on you. You know I love you.
Re: body image:
I can’t really comment to it, aside from the simple matter to say that the image foisted on us by the media and advertisements as the “proper” body image is completely nuts for many reasons (chief among them is that the “proper” body image is quite often Photoshopped, but I’ll leave that aside for now.) Women and men come in different shapes and sizes, and it’s all good.
My own body image I had problems with. I hated how I looked (tall, skinny, pale) and wanted to change it to the point of actually pondering protein powders. I realize now that was an attempt to force myself to accept “I’m a man” despite my internal mind saying “no, you are not.” Now that I’ve accepted my female identity, I absolutely love my body right now (except the lack of real breasts and my bum is a touch flat.)
I don’t really follow music awards, but since Grammies were mentioned yesterday, I threw a look at the list of winners.
The first article that popped up in google search was from Telegraph.
Adele was the winner of the evening. The only comment on the article was: “Adele, No more kebabs for that woman there. ”
Fuck the world.
My wife’s family who is, trying to say this without sounding like a complete ass, a little more “country” than mine makes something every thanksgiving called Watergate Salad.
It’s a mixture of pistachio pudding, pineapple, marshmallows, walnuts and cool whip.
I’m a self admitted food snob and my culinary background has me pointing to this as my go to example of food I just can not eat. But I never tell the family, just my wife. She of course tortures and threatens me with making it constantly.
It does give me the excuse to have the JB’s Watergate running through my head the whole Thanksgiving day while I’m smoking and frying turkeys though. So there’s that.
Ignore the last sentence linky, mainly because it isn’t one.
Bill Withers – Kissin’ My Love.
foonky
Hi, all. Happy Tuesday!
I’m glad you didn’t get in trouble. Be careful, though. Throughout history, law enforcement (or its equivalent) have always been able to create crimes for people who just need arresting even when they have done nothing.
Does it come with a defribilator inside the front cover?
You do that, and I’m agonna serve up 20 (count ’em, 20!) different recipes with peas!
Fine. Please don’t use them here. If others are happy and content with you using gendered insults, that is their problem (and it is a fucking huge problem). Here, the use of non-gendered insults is preferred. And, with a little imagination, even a shitstain on the sheets of life such as yourself should be able to come up with something useful.
That is good news. The Mainiacs have almost always had some of the sanest conservatives in the nation (the last gubernatorial election excepted — they elected a teabagger who wants to cut everything for everybody (well, except for the rich who need it because they create jobs (for investment bankers)).
They love it? For what? Pest control?
The cop may have been stupid, but the reasoning behind keeping people off of railroad tracks is sound. Railroad tracks are private property. Railroad tracks are dangerous — remember that trains cannot stop (and yes, everyone will claim, ‘oh, I’ll be safe, I can always hear the train coming,’ yet trespassers are killed every year on railroad tracks). Additionally, railroads are being hit very hard with theft for items that can be sold for scrap. Rails have been pulled out of the gauge, tie plates and spikes removed, and the copper wire for signalling sections have all been stolen and have caused derailments. You may know that you will not do any of these things, but the railroad, and their insurance company, do not. Stick with getting permission to hunt in farmland.
Well, they are brown and Catholic. Not like they’re real people, right?
(This attitude disgusts me no end. And it hasn’t ended.)
Kinda reminds me of Larry “Lonesome” Rhodes, less the talent, of course.
Signed,
An Ex-Republican
Dear Rev, I’m curious.
Why is it called ‘Watergate Salad’?
Because it’s so scandalous? Or maybe because of the harm that it’s done to the nation?
My understanding, if I remember correctly because I looked this up at some point, is that it was “invented” in 1975 by Kraft when they released pistachio pudding. The concoction was called pineapple delight. A columnist wrote about it but wanting to draw more attention to her/his article called it Watergate salad. And being that it was 1975…
Ha. Never mind. I looked it up on the Pfft and apparently, like all truly evil things, there is no reason.
Or what you said.
I’m sort of amazed at all the skinny guys saying that caused a body image problem. I’ve always been most attracted to thin men – spouse was 6’1″ and all of about 130 pounds when we started dating. It’s just surprising to me given that I see it so oppositely.
As for fat, ugh. I spent a few years hating myself pretty much every minute, then discovered fat acceptance, but then kind of let everything slide, then got disgusted with that and abandoned it for awhile and went back to hating myself, and then finally got the health at every size concept. So now I’m mostly ok, and my gauge of how my body is is whether I’m exercising properly for my abilities and eating more or less healthily. Except for when I go clothes shopping, which is still painful sometimes.
Oh and hey PZ. Got aa random suggestion for the title of one of your chapters for The Happy Atheist if you haven’t finished it already.
Irreducible Stupidity
@Katherine
That’s because you’re lovely – and have great legs.
Many of the great hotels had a ‘signature’ salad. For instance, the Waldorf salad (grapes, apples, walnuts and mayo). Perhaps this salad was developed by a chef at one of the Watergate’s restaurants? However, as has been noted, the PoAK says it was developed at Kraft, so nevermind.
Well, I had a friend who was disgusted by her own feet.
She thought they were ugly to the point of appalling and she hid them from her partner.
She would only take off the socks when her feet were already under the blanket. She’d put them back on first thing after taking a shower.
Until their first holiday at the sea he never ever saw her feet.
And the PoAK says I am wrong about the ingredients for a Waldorf salad, so I’ll just slink away and hide.
@Muse:
Yes yes. That’s exactly it. Loooong legs are awesome legs rather than gangly misshapen crazy things. I still need boobs and a butt XD but that’ll come in the future.
And womens’ clothes fit me better than mens’ clothes. These socks I’m wearing are a) warmer than mens’ socks and b) don’t have the heel at my ankle like mens’ socks.
Bacon and Van Gogh?
@Giliell:
I hate my feet but for different reasons – freak toes and eczema. My toes are all kinds of weird shapes and I have super-rough soles.
Maryam Namazie has written up on the case of Hamza Kashgari. He is the guy who stands accused of blasphemy and was deported to Saudi Arabia, where some rabid locals are baying for his head. BBC article here. Support facebook group via this link.
If you can make your voice heard, please do. The Saudi’s don’t want a big public outcry from the international community and may even back down in the face of one. (Which beggars the question as to why they do such dreadful things in the first place.)
On body issues: partner said they read a article on how cloth sizes were decided and formalized…apparently as part of a works program durring the depression so the models they gathered data from were often not well nurished…and they threw out the measurements of any people of color. Might explain something.
Good news, at least temporarily: following the deployment of hundreds of “redditbombs” by the Something Awful forums yesterday, reddit has finally come to the understanding that if they come for the pedophiles and you don’t speak up, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re coming for your cat pictures next.
Rev – that both wrong and right for so many reasons.
Caine:
I think I recognize Atticus from the AlicuBlog/Sadly, No! crowd. They’re, er, a lot laxer about certain terminology in that circle.
Thank you, CC. ^^ “Shitbegonia” is just one of those words that popped up in my mind. It’s entirely nonsensical, as you can’t cram feces into a flower. At, least, most flowers, and not very efficiently in the case of hollow flowers such as lilies. But it’s just kind of… lilting, I guess.
Caine:
Festering ingrown asshair.
Pyoderma-infected stoma.
Ebola-tainted pus sack.
Beef liver and kidney aspic.
Nutmeg: I think that the “self-esteem movement” as such as misguided. It’s important, of course, to tell children they’re basically good people and encourage them in positive ways, but the stereotypical “19th-place ribbon,” to the extent such actually exist, is a bad idea. The kids keep track of successes and failures among themselves anyway. And to let them coast on mediocre effort is a good way to encourage Dunning-Kruger.
OTOH, Classical Cipher and Antiochus have a point about trying things without worrying overly much how good one is at them, because some things should be about having fun, not competition. Or getting things done and not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Body image is a different, though related, issue to me. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having chubby thighs. If your weight is posing mobility difficulties or you have diabetes, by all means, take steps to correct it. However, one can be somewhat overweight yet quite healthy, healthier even than some thin people.
Our society is ridiculously fatphobic, while at the same time making it difficult for people to eat in a healthy manner and exercise in a safe manner. Because our society is also ridiculously misogynist, women get the worst of this.
A.R.:
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Birger Johansson: Tuskegee v.2.0. Jesus fucking Christ.
TLC: There’s a lot of prejudice against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe. I suspect that had at least something to do with this situation, as well as misogyny.
Sorry, hit “submit” too soon. In case my language was too cryptic, what all that means is that THOSE subreddits have apparently been closed.
One of my sons has weirdly-shaped toes which, endearingly, I realize came directly from his great-grandfather (ok, not directly, but you know what I mean). It’s interesting to me how they skipped over my dad and me and showed up in him.
Oh yeah. The amount of fat-shaming at a gym? *shudders* And then if you decide to go for a run in the neighborhood instead, you can expect drive-by mooing/pig/fattie shouts. Buy a treadmill to do it at home in private? If you’re fat, you have to make sure it’s a really solid one that can handle your weight, which of course automatically puts it in the $700 and up range, out of a lot of people’s ability to pay for it. Blargh.
Carlie: And then there’s the physical safety issues of people who live in very urban areas. I used to live about 2-3 miles from a subway and bus station. I tried walking home from it only once, during rush hour. I managed to cross main arteries without getting run over, but the dose of carbon monoxide I got from the passing vehicles left me nauseated and light-headed.
I think of Santorum as a portmanteau word for sanitarium & sanctorum, but meanings drift over time and of course we all know the current definition.
++++++++++++++
My Mom used to make a salad I think she called Waldorf:
grapes walnuts apples celery in homemade whipped cream.
Ebola-tainted pus sack: Yeah, hate to be a stickler, but Ebola is one of the viruses I do bioinformatics on, and I can assure you that if you had a pus sack tainted with Ebola, you wouldn’t be making any disparaging comments about “teh gheys” for long. /sciencey rant
Oh, and I called my cousin about that aspic, expect a recipe tomorrow.
@carlie:
I have big toes, and then a big ole gap between them and the next toe, and all the middle toes are thin and bulby, and then there’s a gap between the fourth and fifth toes, and my pinky toe is tiny and like… sideways with barely any nail.
Here’s a study I wouldn’t mind volunteering for:
Toward an understanding of the architecture of cannabinoid signaling in the mammalian eye.
I think I’ve done that with just a wink and a nod.
Oh, wait, that may not be what they meant:
Once again, helped needed. Sandra’s responded.
Re: The Federal issue with same sex marriage:
Re: gay marriage and polygamy comparison and the difficulties of polygamy
Re: marriage as a basic human right
Again, I really could do with help on tackling this stuff. Thanks. :)
James
You have been spying on my feet.
(Gaps are wrong, but that just means you are trying to obscure the truth of spying on my feet!)
James, am I reading her correctly? Is she arguing that DOMA somehow cements marriage as 1 man, 1 woman, simply by being a law that was passed, but if we change the law then we’re somehow being hypocrites?
@Beatrice:
I can neither confirm nor deny that I have been spying on your feet.
I’ve got that big gap between my first and second toes, and boy did my family make fun of it when I was a kid (everyone in my family needed something to be ridiculed about). But how many people really care? There’s nothing wrong with foot fetishism, but it’s a minority interest; personally, I barely notice feet.
@james, I concur with myeck waters there. This douchebucket’s gone from Gish galloping to full-on MRA-level obfuscation verging on gaslighting. There’s no good-faith debate here.
– Federal-level failures are no excuse not to improve the lives of same-sex couples IN CALIFORNIA as best we can. Neither is sighing after the PERFECT test case. Neither is going “well
Muslimathey have it worse in other states”. Screw that vicious, condescending claptrap. “I SAY these rights here aren’t good enough for you and your kind so YOU CAN’T HAVE THEM.”– Recognizing same-sex marriage IN CA will remove the so-dismissively-phrased “travel issue” and “overlap problem” FOR COUPLES IN CALIFORNIA. The hell with her all-or-nothing fallacy.
– I’m no expert on the legal side of polygamy, but historically (and currently) it’s a tool for powerful men in religious communities to collect harems of child brides. Not at all the same thing as two consenting adults seeking marriage who just happen to be the same gender. I would say polygamy’s a red herring in this discussion, because we’re NOT talking about three consenting adults. This society can’t even get traditional marriage right (see marital rape, child bride and adultery laws) so it’s got no business giving cover to community-sanctioned child rape.
– Re marriage as a basic human right: again, I’m no expert in the legal side, but she’s presuming her conclusion (namely that no legal benefits would result) and blaming you for not agreeing with her. There’s nothing sacred about “THE” definition of marriage any more than the definition of rape that the FBI just changed. When the law is unjust, the law should fucking well change.
My feet, or mostly that ugly pinky toe, only bother me a bit during the summer when I wear open shoes. I compensate by wearing flashiest colors of nail polish I can find.
Take that Barbie pink, you stupid toes.
Am I the only one who noticed with the idiots argument that apparently gay rights are accepted so well that they can’t just be the big boogie man? No no no, we could accept gays…if it wasn’t for this OTHER boogie man that they would open the door for!
@Beatrice:
Ehehe. I compensate by rarely, if ever, wearing open-toed shoes.
Stink Foot
Katherine Lorraine,
Well, even if it can’t be seen, some colorful improvement can make you feel good.
Signed,
Beatrice, possibly obsessed with nail polish
James:
In order (and just my perspective)…
No, because if same-sex couples get the word “marriage” in California, it forms a basis for legal challenge of DOMA under federal law. That’s a pretty big difference that “civil union” doesn’t grant. Aside from that, “that which is separate can never be equal.”
The Supreme Court doesn’t need to overturn Prop 8; it’s already been overturned. The point that Prop 8 denied only a name and nothing is a substantial thing: it’s actually the whole basis of overturning it. You can’t legally separate out a segment of the population for no benefit.
Group marriage isn’t wrong; it’s just far more complex. If looked at as a legal contract, there’s no reason why multi-party marriages can’t work. There’s just a lot more due dilligence that has to be done before we get there.
The definitions of terms change. “Marriage” as it exists today is far from a “traditional” meaning, unless by “traditional” you mean “only in the last 40 years or so.” Regardless, tradition is the worst basis for supporting an institution or definition as it assumes that the way things were done is always the best: it’s glorification of the past in a very real sense. This is patently false. Traditions are things of which we should be aware, but they should not be considered relevant for modern times.
The religious right want to define away MY marriage, I want to define it IN inclusive of theirs. There’s a big fucking difference.
But that isn’t what she’s saying. She’s saying that poly people are evil and thus letting them be married is wrong. Thus gay marriage is wrong because it opens the door to them. they should be addressing wtf their problem is with how other people want to live. Why would they turn down a poly petition for marriage that was sound and doable? It’s a boogieman game, they just switched the monster because pedophile and bestiality is so easily shot down on logical/legal reasons. Poly lets them do an argument from scary other deviants.
She also responded re: bullying:
I’m sorely tempted to tell this person to go fuck themselves, but I want to continue and correct them on what is blatant ignorance. Please help :)
James
Body image and self-esteem. Interesting (to me, at least) story, there; ‘way back in my teens and twenties (back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth), while possessed of no self-esteem or self-confidence whatsoever, I was convinced that I was hideously overweight and homely. I wore my hair long so I could use it to hide my face, and I wore this huge black fake-fur coat except in the warmest weather in order to hide my hippo-esque body.
A couple of months ago, I found a picture (taken under compulsion) from my prom, and ya know…I had a pretty good body, not too thin, not too fat. And I was…kinda cute. Huh. Who knew?
–
Hey, now, don’t do anything rash! Why should the rest of us have to suffer?
–
I’d been visualising a begonia made of shit; sorta sculpted. And available in big, big bouquets for the especially deserving.
–
your
puts a hurtin’ on my nose
There is no ignorance here. There is a failure to think at a foundational level.
Shorter Answer: Tell them to fuck off and if you want to go for the sting suggest that maybe they were bullied because the other people could tell that they were a violent, callous, unempathetic, antisocial little twit who they didn’t want around them.
… You know, every time I hear “that which does not kill us makes us stronger”, my brain (and sometimes my mouth) replies with, “yes, but that which does kill us makes us dead.” It’s only “character building” for the people who survive, and even then the “character” it builds is often violent and/or self-destructive (not ringing endorsements of the methodology, if you ask me).
Your “friend” is victim-blaming and perpetuating violence. Xe is a sick individual, possibly literally. If xe is using hirself as an example of the product of a bullying environment, xe is hurting hir own argument.
—
Ing,
I was just responding to the statements presented here, which didn’t include a qualitative critique of group marriage. You’re probably right (especially if you’re basing it on prior quotes), but that wasn’t in the quote.
If she could see herself the way we see her, she would realize that would probably be an improvement.
I was commenting on the statement presented as well.
And THAT is why bullying is wrong.
~Denzel Washington
WTF? IS atheism even associated with sociopathy?
James, are you having this discussion privately or publicly? If privately, I’m sorry but there’s no point. You can not correct her ignorance and misinformation. She won’t let you. This is a deeply dishonest and sociopathically callous individual, and rationality just isn’t going to work.
If publicly, you may need to accept explicitly that the value in the discussion is not Sandra, because she has no value, but witnesses/bystanders. It was witnessing other people’s debates that made me embrace feminism, general progressivism and eventually atheism because I did not have opinions on those things strongly enough held to get into debates about them; my hurtful opinions and ideas were the result of thoughtlessness rather than selfishness or cruelty. Those are the people you have a chance with. Mostly, people entrenched enough to argue (and certainly people entrenched enough to argue in the dishonest, ignorant, smugly stupid way that Sandra does) aren’t going to change. Their only value is as object lessons.
After reading a lot of the MRA shit over the last year, I’m not sure I want to know the answer to that.
@Rey Fox
A lot of MRA are Christians remember.
Is she atheist?
Stupid question: Is there in psychology a huge difference between someone who has a self centered myopic morality and sociopathy? I know in common usage they’re used equivalently but I’m actually curious if it is possible to be simply a selfish/selfrightous troll?
Kristinc – It’s a public debate via a forum. What would be particularly useful arguments to make in such a situation?
Can’t remember. Is a characteristic of sociopathy thinking that they are the most important thing in the universe. If so I can’t see them worshipping anything except themselves.
However even if all sociopaths were atheist, it does not logically follow that all atheists are sociopaths.
Yeah, maybe she would be a feeling individual instead of a damaged, callous waste of skin.
I wasn’t ever even beat up, but 3+ years of ostracism and emotional abuse changed me from an outgoing and vibrant person to someone who is fundamentally unable to trust people. My social abilities are irreparably broken. I don’t exaggerate at all when I say I’ll never recover, and I’m over 30 now. It permanently changed me. It does something deep to you when your peer community treats you as if you’re worthless and the authority figures around you let it happen. It’s not the same as getting in a couple fights that stop when you punch back.
Yeah because Christianity doesn’t at all inflate the ego and teach you that you’re awesome, the chosen anointed, personal friends with the incarnation of perfection, forgiven of all sins, morally superior than others, AND awesome because of how humble you are. That the entire universe was made JUST FOR YOU!
I can’t see how it would conflict.
My Yodas are here at this blog. The debates that made me sit up and think had sarcastic, witty people in them like the folks here. That’s what worked on me, although obviously it’s not true for everyone. When I argue for an audience I stick with repeating simple messages, bluntly pointing out bullshit, and mockery, but I’m not as good at it as a lot of other people here.
It’s critical to avoid longwindedness; when people see wordy arguments they’re already inclined to agree with, they skim and nod along to themselves but when they see wordiness in an opposing viewpoint they just skim. Don’t get caught up in arguing fine nuance and don’t let her Gish gallop pull you off track, just stick to repeating central points, for example that only the most inhumanly callous or damaged of people would argue that a child in enough torment to kill themselves should just toughen up. Or that marriage provides state benefits as well as federal, and every adult citizen is entitled to the same legal benefits under the Constitution.
Did anyone else respond to the threat of kidney and liver in aspic?
Wow. Who knew the GOP, Teabagger Party, and the Christian Right were all (usually) atheists?
So would I. For instance, I would probably be able to accept someone’s friendship without wondering when — not if, but when — they were going to throw me under a bus, or humiliate me, or some other wonderful thing.
=======
And Karen Handel, the ex-VP at the Komen foundation has a new job. Anyone want to guess?
You got it. She will be a pro-life martyr of Faux News.
But doesn’t her argument also suggest that there should be no attempt made to prevent murder, since children are inevitably affected when a parent is murdered (and grow up to be “completely different” people from who they would otherwise have been; that there should be no attempt to prevent pedophilia, since that changes the person they otherwise could have been; that there should be no attempt to prevent parental neglect, or child abuse of other sorts? Where does Sandra stand on these? Does she feel that these are acceptable on the same “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” basis?
–
Ahhh, my empirical evidences says “no”. Also, having the bully “move on to someone else” seems, ah, problematic in my moral calculus. Perhaps I was always the “someone else” at the bottom, with the entire bully hierarchy kicking down? Fighting back just meant that the big guys held me down while the littlest in the bunch wailed on me; all the more amusing when they could say someone 2/3 my size beat me up … ignoring the fact that there were four guys, each 25% bigger than me, holding my limbs. And this was before the stupid rules about “zero tolerance” where victim and perpetrator were punished equally.
Domestic terrorism. That’s what bullying is. And we damn well shouldn’t tolerate it.
Nietzsche was wrong. That which does not kill you does not necessarily make you stronger.
The IED that did not kill the Marine merely blew his legs off and left him blind and permanently brain damaged.
The heart attack can not kill, yet leave someone permanently in a coma (happened to a friend of mine).
Some cancer can be treated in perpetuity, to the detriment of just about every body system there is.
Emotional abuse leaves one emotionally stunted. Sexual abuse leads to becoming a sexual abuser (statistically speaking — it’s the number one factor).
In fact, in my experience, there are very few sayings for which there appears to less corroborating evidence, and vast amounts of data in the opposite direction.
Retract my last. Brayton’s article refers to a parody. But a believable one. I just got Poed. Sorry. I will now go hang my head in shame.
This. ALL her arguments, about bullying, gay marriage, ALL of it, boil down to “nothing will ever change so don’t bother”. I’d say bullying HAS changed her – it’s taught her the first lesson of being a victim, learned helplessness. The world is cruel, nobody will ever come to help you, nothing will ever get better. The ones who commit suicide choose that OVER going ballistic in their schools with projectile weapons. But she’s measurably, empirically wrong – bad as it can get, gay and lesbian people by and large are more accepted in the US than they’ve ever been, and there are even good people who have great parents and have hardly been bullied at all.
Does Sandra think that no one should ever get vaccinated, since what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?
She might admire the tough qualities she has in herself now, and attribute them to bullying (I wouldn’t admire those traits, but I’ll go with it for the moment), but how does she know she wouldn’t have them even MORE if she hadn’t been so knocked down to begin with?
Yes, this. This exactly.
A friend just grabbed this screenshot from Facebook. Image is SFW. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Yeah, respond to this with: “Sure, probably a much better person. That’s why I’m against bullying.” Or something like that. You can point out to her that she’s basing her judgements about bullying generally on her own experiences and that this is really short-sighted and illogical. Why would she think that her experiences with bullying should be representative of everyone’s experiences?
Make it clear that you’re not discussing polyamory or polygamy and bringing them up constitute evasion and misdirection. You’re talking about monogamous homosexual marriage because that is what’s up for debate. There are no big polygamy cases in the news and the most recent polygamy cases are child bride cases that are much worse for Sandra’s argument than for yours, but don’t get dragged into it regardless. You can tell her if she thinks polygamy is a worthy cause she’s free to fight for it but it’s not what the current conversation is about.
As far as “tradition” goes, just take the fight to her there. There’s plenty of awful traditions that our society has thrown by the wayside as part of moral progress, you can point out to her that in traditional Judeo-Christian marriage women are property and the husband is within his rights to rape his wife and that traditionally American women have not been allowed to vote. I’m a little worried about suggesting this because there’s fertile grounds for her to derail more here, but you can make sure you always bring it back to gay marriage: “Why should we rely on tradition to decide what marriage rights are like if we can’t rely on tradition to decide what voting rights are like?” or “Why should we rely on traditional definitions of marriage when those traditional definitions abridge so many rights women now take for granted?”
My sister is applying for US citizenship and it actually asks this on the form:
“Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with:
a. The Communist Party”
Really? In this day and age they’re asking “Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?”. I guess McCarthy’s mistake wasn’t being intrusive, but not picking his victims carefully. Immigrants can hardly fight back.
Daisy Cutter: bwahhh! That … that is art.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/13/pastors-daughter-accidentally-shot-in-head-at-florida-church/
Interesting article in The New York Review of Books:
Andrew Hacker reviews several books that look at income inequality.
Discussing the book The Spirit Level Hacker writes:
Discussing the book The Age of Austerity Hacker writes:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/feb/23/
@Ms. Daisy Cutter:
I’m trying to remember if it was a superhero or something… but there was a dude who like… exploded rays of death from his chest, and he’d clutch at his chest and pull aside his shirt or whatnot and BOOM ray of death… but I can’t remember for the life of me who it was. Maybe Havoc?
Goatse is god?
Questions are great. For Sandra’s sort, I’m also a fan of “why do you hate America?” or even, riffing on Mark 12:17, “why do you hate Jesus?”
http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/macomb_county/14-year-old-girl-accuses-19-year-old-fellow-parishioner-of-sexual-assault-church-pastor-suspended
How much do you want to bet the victim will be blamed?
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform #327
Beautiful. If the original FB poster is sincerely xian, that is the best religious icon ever!
But you’re talkin’ peas, man! Peas!
–
And this is worse than organ meat in collogen?
You know, even in public debate there’s also something to be said for just refusing to even discuss with certain people. It’s too late for Sandra at this point but the moment someone trots out something truly, deeply repugnant like “so what if some kids commit suicide”, responding with something like “omfg are you fucking serious” and refusing to even talk to them is not a complete loss.
You do give up an opportunity to make more specific and cogent points, but it can be thought of as doing your part to shift the Overton window.
Another interesting article in The New York Review of Books: Elizabeth Drew asks Can we have a Democratic election?
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/feb/23/can-we-have-democratic-election/
What the fuck is wrong with these women? If I think you are sexy enough, I will be happy to let you beat me.
Re Janine’s link: In case it needs to be said, don’t read the comments.
is how the article about a girl being accidentally shot in the head (link in #331) ends.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/13/missouri-spends-foreclosure-settlement-money-on-budget-gaps/
Hmm, I should have the aspic recipe tomorrow, but I’m debating whether or not I should post, given the threat of pea retaliation.
Anyway, I agree with whoever said “what does kill you makes you dead.” I’ve used that before.
People are being worked to death.
Link
Lynna:
Sounds like a Teabagger wet dream.
1. If the workers think the job is harming them, they can always get another job (and if they can’t, then they should be greatful for any job).
2. No retirement pensions (it solves the Social Security solvency situation!).
3. The profits of the employers are not brought down by silly things like worker safety which means they can produce more jobs (as long as there are no taxes on the company).
4. It encourages the miners (and minors) to bootstrap themselves up to owning the company before they die of kidney failure (and those that don’t? well, they just had no gumption).
And the most depressing part about writing that? I know people who would nod their heads and agree.
That is horrible.
And my next thought is, what churches are also profitting by working people to death?
Yeah, I am cynical.
In my experience, If you’re a skinny guy, and you lose even one fight for it even once, you will spend the rest of your life making sure that never happens again. Ever. At any cost. I’m not kidding.
Sandra’s right, bullying did make me stronger though… if by ‘stronger’ she means more wary, quicker to aggression, and with a significant loss of empathy.
One of my childhood bullies, though by no means the worst, got into a horrific car accident, got dragged under the car and skin shredded and everything. I’d heard he died, but I saw him alive on a bus all coated in purple scars, and I looked right at him and said “Aren’t you supposed to be dead?”
As you said, Ogvorbis.
Today in How Sexism And Objectification Ruin Everything:
There’s an article called The three laws of future employment. It’s by a chemist, saying how humanities degrees are going to be more important. Interesting viewpoint, something to talk about.
And then he has a set of bullet points he calls career advice. The last one is:
What. The. Fuck?
That takes an article I might have distributed to a lot of people and ensures that I won’t send it to anybody.
One of the odd corrolaries to bullying is what can happen to large people. I was always been one of the largest kids in my class (at least until about 9th grade). I also got to deal with undiagnosed (at the time) Aspbergers. Which meant that I was the object of bullying. Constantly. And when I did strike out at my numerous tormentors, well, how do you think the teacher responded to the kid five inches taller, 20 pounds heavier, pounding the crap out of another kid? I learned very quickly to never, ever, ever defend myself. Well, not that quickly, but I learned.
PFC Ogvorbis: I’ve conversed with a few human giants in my time, and one thing I found interesting was that being colossal, for them, meant every little shitweasel and fuckhead decided he wanted to try to prove himself on them. They were always having to defend themselves in bar fights.
And it’s not like they could REALLY win… they win the fight, and it’s like ‘Congratulations asshole, you beat up someone smaller than you. What a champ.’ They lose the fight, and it’s like “hahaha asshole, you got beaten up by someone smaller than you! What a champ.”
And most of them, in my experience, really and truly never wanted to fight anyone.
Ogvorbis – that’s the situation with my son, too. He’s 95th percentile for height and over that for weight, and on top of that we held him back from kindergarten a year because of his numerous (undiagnosed at the time) issues so he’s 6-10 months older than everyone else in class as well.
Sandra again. Just for the record, I told her to not send me another email on bullying, because I was feeling really fucking upset after her previous.
So yeah, here we go.
Re DOMA, the definition of marriage and how I’m potentially a hypocrite:
Re the federal issue with gay marriage and the rights of gay couples through marriage:
Re polygamy and its history, traditional marriage laws and the examples of faults with traditional marriage:
Re once more on the definition of marriage and her presuming of her conclusion:
Also, I need an internet group hug. That entire bullying exchange was just… *ugh*
James
james, you’ve been fighting the good fight, but some people are just intractable. ((big hugs))
*hugs* for jamesmichaels. Also *boozes* and *chocolates*.
–
I just got the news that I am to be co-author on a peer-reviewed article in a feature issue of Optometry & Vision Science. [/brag]
@James: *internet anklehugs*
She’s lying in order to personally attack you.
It’s dishonest to equate defending a definion with defending, oh I don’t know, actual fucking people’s actual fucking human rights. Let them find a definition of marriage that doesn’t screw people over, and they can say marriage is between two small rodents and a baptized banana for all I care.
I wonder how she felt about the legal definition of slaves or women as property, but I’d rather not find out.
The Dunning-Kruger is STRONG in this one. Is anyone else on this forum calling her out, or are they too baffled by bullshit?
From the department of “whoa”.
From sloppy attire to schizophrenia: How your cat [might be] making you crazy.
And the “parasites” aren’t the cats. :)
So, emmm, if restoring the right of same sex couples to marry in CA wouldn’t change anything, why is Sandra The Mental Giant against it? Did she think separate but equal worked out well the last time we did it?
@Changeable Moniker
If it’s what I think it is then I only had a chance to skim it…but it triggered my crank warning system.
Notably HOW far reaching the guy is claiming it goes; blaming everything from suicides to traffic accidents to schizophrenia on it, and dismissing criticism of the claim as “they just don’t like the idea that people can be manipulated like puppets”. It reminded me of the liver fluke lady.
Also, this is so stupid it stings my sensitive skin. The Conservative Christians can have their own definition of marriage all they want. But they are not entitled to dictate that the legal definition for the civil institution of marriage conform to their definition.
@CM:
Great… now I see sensationalist news media picking up on that story and causing a panick among the less skeptical, well-read members of society who’ll declare genocide against the common house cat…
Aaand, from the department of cognitive dissonance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/us/even-critics-of-safety-net-increasingly-depend-on-it.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
*sad WTF*
*delurks to vent*
Job hunting. Rejected by form emails. After having to borrow money for gas to get to the damn interviews because my job only pays minimum wage.
What the hell ever happened to calling people!?
Also, to James re:Sandra: #&$&#@&&$^#&*#@ No really, it’s just too much trouble to keep debating with her.
Re: Lynna’s link: *cries* I doubt very seriously there’s anything new about this disease other than better reporting methods. These conditions are not new to these areas.
James:
Hugs. Sounds like she’s doubling down on teh stupid. If you’re still going, tell her she’s trying to derail by bringing up polyamory and polygamy, that those are not what’s under discussion. Point out that derailing is a pretty good sign she doesn’t have a real, direct argument to defend her position on gay marriage. Tell her that suggesting that you want to repeal statutory rape laws is a form of ad hominem, trying to ascribe a view to you that you don’t hold to try to imply that you don’t have the moral high ground. Tell her that this is another sign that her case for her own position is so weak that she doesn’t seem to have any recourse but personal attacks against people who disagree with her. Gently suggest that as the person advocating for equality under the law you absolutely do have the moral high ground.
You can also point out that it makes no sense to simultaneously claim that marriage is a sacred tradition but on the other hand it doesn’t deny gays any rights to have to call them “domestic partnerships.” Either it’s sacred or meaningless; if it’s meaningless then there’s no reason to deny it to gay people and if it’s sacred then denying it to gay people is indeed discrimination.
And you should straight up tell her if you haven’t already given up that it’s pointless to engage with someone who derails the discussion and denigrates those who disagree rather than arguing directly for or against the thesis under discussion on its own merits. Strongly imply that she knows she doesn’t have a leg to stand on and that’s why she’s deflecting (without saying so outright). Refuse to engage any further arguments that don’t bear directly on the matter at hand and suggest that if all she can do is derail that she has already lost.
If you’re still arguing with her, you’re doing it for the lurkers.
Re: marriage and Sandra
Instead of “sacred” you should probably substitute something like “important cultural institution.” Even if the legal consequences for “domestic partnership” and “marriage” are identical, it’s pretty obvious that marriage is just as important if not moreso as a cultural institution than as a legal one and to insist that gay marriage is not marriage is to exclude gay folks from the common culture in which marriage is an important institution. And you can also point out that anyone engaging in this sort of legal quibbling about “rights” and “privileges” is demonstrating that they’re not nearly so concerned about the spirit of the law — which under the constitution is equality for all — than about the letter of the law, i.e. finding the edge cases under which they can deny other people rights.
Ing:
There is one psycho-physiological test which seems to show a neurological difference, as I (unsourcedly) recall:
Show random slides to sociopaths and control group. Some of these slides contain images of graphic violence and cruelty to humans and other animals. Control group blinks; sociopaths do not.
(The Pffft! via my memory)
-=+=-
kristinc:
Argh, how to say this without negating your experience? Can I just put in a blanket disclaimer here, that the following is all my own opinion, not to be taken as a substitute for professional advice, and a reflection at 43 on my own experience with abuse, neglect, trauma and healing therefrom?
Those sound to me like learned behaviours, not something innate, fundamental, or irreparable. If anything were innate, I’d put my money on the vibrant and outgoing qualities you remember.
Yes, abuse does permanently change you – but change continues, constantly, albeit less drastically. I think there is hope that one can relearn/unlearn, not to recreate the previous condition of innocence, but to create something that synthesizes all your experience; before, after and since. It may never be as good or as simple as it was before, and Darwin knows it’s long and painful and frikin awful, and there’s not really a point at which you’re “done”, and the sense of raw grief for what you lost is both totally valid, and crushingly bloody horrible – but that maybe you can at least have something that works better for you than what you have now, and that you can one day look back on and say, “I made this. I made me.”
At least, I hope there is, for all our sakes.
*hugs*
-=+=-
Woah woah woah. Citation frikin’ needed.
-=+=-
Objection! Some of my best friends are composed largely of organ meat in collagen.
Yes indeed, daniellavine, one of the best things I learned from reading smart passionate people argue was how to identify bullshit and posturing in the absence of a substantial argument. If James does nothing else but point out her avoidance and derailing, he’ll still be adding to the net intelligence of the world.
This is a test of the “where the fuck are my comments going” broadcast system.
I’ve tried twice today to comment over at JT’s, just to watch one go through then disappear later and the other just go directly into the void (hail Sithis!). Just thought I’d try over here and see if this is happening to me across FtB, or if JT just doesn’t like me any more.
Giliell, in Finnish Valentine’s day is actually called “friend’s day” – ystävänpäivä. I think that’s quite OK, even if I don’t participate.
drbunsen: Yes, of course you’re right. I’ve actually made huge strides, the most significant of which was actually recognizing that I had been terribly damaged and that being unable to trust people was something I learned. The state I’m in now is one after improvement, and I try to recognize that, and remind myself how far I’ve come, and that I can go farther.
It doesn’t help much that like many if not most people in the US I can’t afford therapy or counseling. I’m sure that spending the past 5 or 10 years discussing these things with a really good therapist instead of struggling through them on my own would have yielded even more progress.
Yeah, most things that result from abuse are learned behaviors. That doesn’t mean people unlearn them. Or that they don’t keep messing you up.
I don’t think it’s realistic for me to ever expect to be without some of the issues that result from my past, either. The most critical part affected is my ability to form long term bonds and intimate relationships. I don’t think that we are so stable or constant. It isn’t as if there was a single unified “us” to begin with. What happens to us changes us, and there really isn’t any putting things back… just moving on.
I’ve heard that PTSD, as with learned fears in animals, can only be managed, not erased. Those conditions can end up being managed very, very well, so well that they cause no problems anymore, but they’re never gone. It’s like never forgetting how to ride a bike – even if you haven’t seen a bike for forty years, you’ll still ride one better than you did when completely naive.
So, not sure where else to post this, or what to do, so I thought pharyngulites might be able to help. John Loftus, or someone posting as him, Just threatened to go on an atheist shooting spree to me at Camels with Hammers:
When I expressed amazement that someone would say something that could even be interpreted as a threat to go on a shooting spree he said:
And then, for good measure, he threw in:
The links:
1st comment
2nd comment
3rd comment
Am I overreacting, or is this just fucking crazy? What should I do?
@Ing, I know what you mean. But he’s at least self-sceptical, which is unusual for the “this is it! this! this!!” types.
Who is the “liver fluke lady”, though?
http://lymebusters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rash&action=print&thread=1664
?
grung0r,
Report it.
grung0r:
It looks like the “already decided to do this” was in response to:
Still – anyone who talks about inflicting violence is treading on legally precarious grounds (aside from the, “wtf??” factor).
Therrin:
Yeah, but to whom? The dude had a blog at FTB for a bit(and the comments took place on FTB as well), surly someone in the administration here would be able to contact the authorites with more precision then I, and furthermore verify it was him posting in the first place. I looked around for a bit, but I was unable to find any other way of contacting someone at FTB, absent comments.
I am several layers of crazy.
I just held a fake cooking show in my kitchen, as if I were Homestar Runner…
Food’s tasty though.
Richard:
It wasn’t. Camels with Hammers has a goofy reply system that only lets a thread go so deep. Temporally, it came after the “guns on athiests” exchange.
@grungor: I *think* Greg Laden at The X Blog *points to sidebar* runs the mechanics of FTB in general. Um, also, wouldn’t what’s his name at Camels With Hammers be able to verify IP addresses, make a formal report and so forth?
Loftus has the same text on his own blog http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/02/some-atheists-are-schmucks.html
How so I call 911 from abroad?
so on this legal blog, about this case where a German blogger was acquitted after calling the RCC a “sect of ch*ild******s”, now the rabid Catholics are out in force. A popular argument was “so if you can call me a ch*ld*** because I’m a Catholic, I can call you a Nazi because you’re German (note: the poster was German too)”.
One of them brought out this rather puzzling argument:
“We could call all German Nazis because of a handful of Neo-Nazi idiots. Which is not too far off in case of the Left, back in the day, Hitler and Himmler showed much more affection for Islam than for Catholicism.”
Anyone know where this comes from? A combination of the Nazi dealing with the Mufti of Jerusalem and the debunked table talks?
Katherine: Apply LIBEWALLY.
Good bloody fucking grief.
@Rey Fox:
Pretty much XD
“Make suw you don’t ovowcook da noodows, cuz dey don’t taste so gewd aftaw dat.”
I still get in tears laughing over Kyle “The Yellow Dart”‘s Englilish paper.
There was one woo proponent years ago who advocated that all disease were caused by these toxic liver flukes IIRC. I remember she died and it was covered on SGU
———————————
What the fuck is wrong with John Loftus?
@carlie:
The virus episode always makes me die laughing.
I’m sure Loftus means his guns of intelligence, or guns of amazing wit, or whatnot. But he ought to know better than to use eliminationist rhetoric.
I guess I’ll just try to get Daniel’s attention about it at Camels with hammers. I don’t feel comfortable reporting it to police myself, especially since Loftus has the mind of the child and probably just thinks he’s being clever. Still, when he ends up shooting everyone at TAM, I’m gonna feel pretty bad that I could have done more.
I mean even without the gun comment, I presumed trolling. Why the fuck is he so nasty towards atheists?
grung0r:
First, blog owner.
Second, site administrator.
Third (if known), state/local authorities.
Fourth, FBI.
@Katherine: “I am several layers of crazy.”
You have a cat, right? It’s the cat.
Seriously, the plural of blog comment is Scientific Proof™. :)
Jamesmichael1 (sp?), one of her earlier emails IRT bullying was ‘you’re either bullied or you’re the bullier’.
This is pure bullshit. It’s not either/or. IME, most people fall within the spectrum, and most people aren’t at either extreme. We get out of HS and that stupid shit stops for the most part.
I usually was able to use my wits to get out of being bullied, and the times I took advantage I still feel bad for. Bullying, or abuse, as it should be called, is wrong.
I’m really sick of it being accepted on any level. Maybe it’s ‘natural’, or even ‘inherent’, but people should be better than this. ‘Don’t trust anyone’ is not a healthy way to go thru life. But so is trusting everyone.
I have an older sibling who is a bully. When it got unacceptable to do it physically he did it emotionally. He’s smart, an accomplished musician, and a fucking bully. And he wonders why no one in the family wants to deal with him.
The mentality to me seems to be if someone else is getting more that means I am getting less. He’ll never be happy so wants to make sure others are just as miserable. When he offers something for free, I know the price is more than I can afford.
I hate thinking like that. I’ve learned how to do it, but I hate thinking like that.
Because I’m kinda smart some people have accused me of doing that, seriously, I just don’t think that way, and I try to avoid people like that. HS may be about the bullying, but life isn’t, it’s about being happy.
Life isn’t a zero sum game except for the fact that none of us gets out alive.
+++++++++++++++++++++
I know the above was disjointed but once I started that was where it went.
If anyone wants to read some gorgeously blistering remarks on Abrahamic religions, I recommend this, this, this, and this from William, over on Feministe. He’s actually some kind of pagan or other, rather than an atheist, but he’s also one of the best commenters in that community, ever. Goddamn, I don’t even smoke and I think I need a cigarette now.
Carlie, that pinhead says in his comments that he also opposes “subsidies for education,” against which he wrote a screed on Forbes.com. Between that and his sexism, I’d feel comfortable ignoring any non-chemistry advice from him.
Anonymous report. Send an e-mail from a junk account or website form.
Not an excuse for repeatedly making violent threats.
I didn’t read the posts (too busy at laughing over how Nerd is too old to understand new “scientific breakthroughs” on the jabbergyre thread), but if he’s going to be at an event catering specifically to those he said he’s going to kill, they should without question be informed.
Here’s a federal-level reporting site. At the least, it’s putting a note in a file somewhere that can help to identify a pattern.
I hate to be “that guy/gal” but are we sure it is Loffty and not a troll attempt?
Heh. “Hustle and bustle”:
The meaning of “coil” in “shuffle off this mortal coil”. Fact! (Sort of.)
Ok am I crazy or did Nuttzonettle literally just repeat back to me what I corrected him with as if I was the one who got it wrong the first time?
*Long rambling post, skip if you want*
Body image: Well, ever since puberty hit, I’ve been buxom on top. This has always felt odd to me, in that “Hmm, things don’t feel balanced” way. Being raised on a hearty Italian diet with lots of pasta didn’t go a long way toward controlling the weight that I eventually gained. I had one short period where I tried to wear midriff shirts, and then realized that I really didn’t like the way I looked in them with all the extra fat I carried. And, I thought, “Er, OK, maybe this doesn’t look good to anyone else either.”
High school . . . shit, I don’t think I remember much other than not wanting to wear what lots of the girls wore because I didn’t think I looked attractive in it. So, pants and polo shirts, jeans, long-sleeve shirts, the usual getup. I wore the skort that was supposed to be the girls’ uniform maybe two times, the solid blue skirt for upper-classmen maybe once. For one thing, the skort was hideous blue plaid. For another, I just felt even bigger and fatter in it.
It wasn’t until college, when I was walking/running to class all day and was away from all the pressures and BS of life back in CT, that I really started easing up on my body image and getting into the swing of what really mattered to me. I had so much going on that eventually one day I woke up and thought, “Damn, I can run further and faster than I ever did before, I can dance, throw a good kick, AND I’m learning lots of interesting stuff in class. I’m on a roll.” I honestly think that if I hadn’t gone to college out of state, I’d be a mess. I doubt I’d be comfortable enough to lounge around in just my undies and bathrobe (not that I do that much now, but back then, yes, and more so when I finally got my own room).
I’ve come to like my body, and I know now that it’s not my fault if people can’t parse it into “what a woman looks like.” Things feel a bit more balanced, but I still would like a smaller chest, though not so much because of people staring anymore – I just feel like it’s so much extra weight I don’t need. Nowadays, running is a favorite way to de-stress mostly, along with an undertone of survival: “On the day I have to run for my life, I’d better be ready, rail-thin or not.”
—————————————-
Sociopathy and atheism: Not always bedmates. Plenty of the people quoted on FSTDT would qualify as sociopaths, I think, some especially so. My guess is that the nature of fundamentalist religion attracts these people because they, like abusers, can use the tenets to justify or hide their behavior. As for a link between MRAs and sociopathy, I don’t doubt that some MRAs would fit the bill. Not all of them, but possibly enough to warrant a closer look at what’s going on.
Fuckin hell.
Got … I wouldn’t say quite triggered, but deeply agitated and focus-y last night watching Buffy of all things. Had to go to bed because I had two exams this morning. Accidentally fell back to sleep this morning and woke up less than an hour before I needed to get to the exam. Missed the bus. Ran part of the way to campus. Fucking pro-lifers with their hideous signs on the square. Wanted to commit violence but I was already five minutes late for my exam. Ran to my exam. Went blank on a word, became extremely convinced that it was a verb I couldn’t remember, was unable to finish the exam because I couldn’t fit that sentence together. Next class was fine. Then the other exam. Couldn’t remember several words, including one from the locatives list I had reviewed multiple times. Then had a false recognition followed by panic attack in a coffee shop and walked home in a haze. Have to meet with my professor tomorrow to discuss something I was supposed to be working on but have been too overwhelmed to start.
Fuck today.
We are ing:
Yes, it’s him. He used similar statements on his blog after he used them with me.
No, which is why grungor’s trying to reach someone at FTB who can confirm – Fincke at Camels with Hammers and/or Greg should be able to.
So I got Skyrim.
Are the Stormcloaks massively xenophobic Nordic peoples? Cuz I don’t wanna be on the side of jerks…
…or that. Unless the hypothetical troll hacked Loftus’s blog too, it’s him.
Katherine Lorraine, yes, the Stormcloaks are xenophobic assholes.
@CC:
So a khajiit would probably not like them XD
Apparently both the Legion and the Stormcloaks are jerks to Khajiit. Their caravans aren’t allowed in the cities of either faction.
@CC:
Ah, true… but then again khajiit are well known for their skooma smuggling operations, so maybe a good idea on both their parts.
…incidentally, would anyone like to say how people make threats over the Internet because they can do so anonymously? anyone? /petpeeve
Ohnoes my computer just shat itself
New Breeding Program Aimed At Keeping Moderate Republicans From Going Extinct
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
James, if it’s a friend of yours, maybe you both should agree to stop discussing things that you don’t agree about.
There are many things that my friends and I disagree vehemently about, we just don’t talk about them. If I can do this with family I can extend it to friends.
If it’s not a friend, you have nothing in common, fight it with your hat. Grab it and run.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
et al; many people are willing to say, and be more hostile, in internet forums. It doesn’t mean they are sociopaths. e.g. me.
And, offtopic, one thing I madly admire about Brad DeLong is his ability to say “I might be wrong”.
Topic: conservatives and birth control.
An admission: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/02/delong-smackdown-watch-gene-callahan-edition.html
Vicarious vindication: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/02/delong-smackdown-smackdown-watch-by-digby-and-company-von-mises-as-patriarch-edition.html
From the comments:
Game, set, match, and Championship.
Pteryxx,
Great point, though on the other hand the fact that he isn’t anonymous and still went on with his threats is what really makes me think the dude might be seriously unhinged.
#20 Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan wrote:
It’s not hard to understand. He believes they’re animals (and even accidently said so) and out of control of a proper master (himself, naturally). In other words, he wants these people to “know their place”, but of course, saying “know your place” is not politically correct, so substitute phasing has to be chosen.
Dog whistles. So many damn dog whistles. Don’t say what you believe because what you believe is horrifying, so speak in code, and ambiguities. I almost wish I never learned to “hear” them. It seems that ignorance is bliss, because assuming these people are merely mistaken is far less unsettling than the reality of it.
Katherine re Skyrim,
There’s nuance to both their positions that make picking one side less straightforward. For example (going to keep it vague), in one area that supported the Stormcloaks, I decided to help the resistance movement against them. Afterwards, I learned some rather horrifying details about said resistance movement, and quite regretted my decision.
In Skyrim both of the sides are really just shades of grey. I have issues with both. I really don’t want to ruin it for you. I went against the Stormcloaks because of the racism issue though. There are intense discussions online of the issue, it gets pretty interesting taking in all the factors. Also, reading the info in game helps as well.
grung0r:
Again, this is an issue I take personally. Someone making anonymous threats on the Internet is still, y’know, making threats. It’s not reasonable to say anonymous commenters who make threats are more rational (and thus less dangerous) because they’re making efforts to cover their tracks. Generally the argument is that anonymous commenting should be banned because people wouldn’t make threats under their own names. That’s just not true. People make threats because they believe they won’t be held accountable. Whether they do that via ego, social status or concealment doesn’t matter as much as the fact that they made threats in the first place.
There’s another comment on Loftus’s blog on this topic at http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/some-atheists-are-schmucks.html#comment-438081397
That sounds like the GA Convention in Melbourne to me.
Pteryxx:
You are right, of course. I was trying to denote that I feel like there is a difference even though I know logically there isn’t one, but that didn’t come across very well and in the end it’s irrelevant anyway. Threats of violence are threats of violence, no matter their source.
There’s another comment on Loftus’s blog on this topic
That sounds like the GA Convention in Melbourne to me.
I tried to include a link, but it’s not posting that way.
Can I be both a Thief and a Dark Sister?
I think it’s real.
Yep! I’m both.
OFFS.
How the fuck is it that I work for a fucking MEDICAL SCHOOL and the employee insurance doesn’t include vision or dental?!
Hey:
NPR arbitrarily denies people from posting, and deletes posts without reason. I Had this happen to me on the response thread to this article;
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/02/13/146817253/pew-poll-good-news-for-santorum-better-news-for-obama
I swear on the head of a fuzzy kitteh that I never came close to “violating'” policies. I used no abusive language, I engaged in no personal attacks, I never attempted to sell or buy anything. My posts were simply labeled “inappropriate” and dustbinned. The posts that stayed up are my attempts to get their attention.
Please help me get their attention.
Because vision and, especially, dental insurance is expensive.
wow
psych evaluations are really really different now from (say)~26.5 years ago.
Need … new …thread.
600 is the bare minimum.
Yes, yes, I know. Still.
Relatedly, WTF is this shit:
(note, incidentally, that the HPV vaccine is not included in the list of immunizations they pay for)
Also not covered: hearing exams and hearing aids, quit-smoking care, or anything at all related to gender identity disorder.
On the other hand, they do pay for birth control, mammograms, pap smears, and abortions, all without co-pays.
Whee.
Our vision insurance is so bad, I skip it as it costs as much as would be covered for the two of us. Dental insurance is good though. Helped to pay for my titanium fang.
They asked about my teeth!
Free Dave J!
Television – Blank Generation
Pixies – Gouge Away
Patti Smith – Gloria
Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but not mine.
Fortunately (for some values of “fortunately”) my father went from senile to coma to vegetative to dead, rapidly.
So we never had to make a decision.
Thank you for your support™.
chigau, I’m speechless. *hug*
Love Patti, kissed her once, kissed her twice (in my dreams), but Laurie Anderson took me away . . .
The latest on the John Loftus “guns” buisness:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/camelswithhammers/2012/02/13/kirk-cameron-gapes-admiringly-at-monuments/#comment-244720
tl;dr Apparently FTB bloggers don’t think he was being threatening, so that’s that. I still think he was, but short of reporting him to police, I guess I don’t see where else this could go.
grung0r: I would report the fuck out of him. Report him to anyone who’ll listen. Especially law enforcement. And piss on his defenders.
If anyone wants a laugh at the expense of the Catholics: http://www.rev-know-it-all.com/2008/2008—09-14.html
I also agree he needs to be reported. It didn’t sound very metaphorical to me, to sounded like repeated threats.
Totally unrelated to anything: I found out today that my father did have cancer in his throat (actually, it was lung cancer in his throat), but they seem to have gotten it all and it hasn’t spread. I am so foolishly happy, y’all. Been worried sick for weeks.
Laughing Coyote:
I’m not particularly comfortable doing that for a variety of reasons. If he was making a threat, he was making it towards all atheists, not just me. You are free to “report the fuck out of him” if you are more comfortable then I in doing so.
grungor: definitely keep a paper trail. Keep screenshots of the comments, including the ones where Fincke said he doesn’t consider it worth following up on. Keep links to everything. And, it’s up to you if you want to fill out a report to the FBI or to conference organizers or whatever. Probably, but only probably, nothing will come of it.
Happiestsadist
YaY for the cancer-gouge on your Da.
hoping for the best
Catching up, but first:
grungor:
a) HELL NO b) YES c) FBI, NOW
a) precision is the FBI’s job b) so’s verification
Please ignore if redundant.
I’mma just cosign drbunsen @ #451’s comment, because seriously. That shit is worrisome, the sensible thing to do is to send it to the people whose job is to ascertain the threat level of this stuff and deal with it appropriately.
Fincke is gonna feel like a big ol’ horse’s ass if anything DOES happen…
I don’t get it. More people than you are being threatened? OK… is this not MORE of a reason to report the fuck out of him?
Also, I just had my pre-surgery consult today for the “Let’s dig around in Happiest’s pelvis and fix all that nonsense!” extravaganza I have coming up. I am going to not be in pain all the time (hopefully) and have periods like a normal person who has those (hopefully) in nine days! This is incredibly exciting. Today’s been full of good health news for me and mine. An unusual, but pleasant circumstance.
TLC @ #453: Yeah. At this point, it’s a death threat against lots of people. I mean, even if not for oneself, at that point, you kind of have to speak up.
and if grungor doesn’t want to report, then at the very least, several of us should keep the paper trail (so to speak) just in case. I don’t see how reporting would cause any damage or bad consequences, but I could be missing something, neh? It’s no hardship for us to make a mental note to watch Loftus.
Good thinking, Pteryxx.
These are not fucking metaphorical guns he’s talking about. This isn’t fucking Rhetoric. It’s a damn threat.
There’s a chance he doesn’t mean it, and thinks he’s just psyching everyone out, but if so then let’s hope he feels double-stupid when it comes back on him.
Intent isn’t fucking magic, and even so I’m pretty sure the intent here is a threat.
Grungor, I’ve posted there as well with my impressions. Loftus made a threat against atheists who hide behind pseudonyms, directly after he had criticized me for exactly that. His vagueness about what he meant fits a very familiar (to me) pattern, where threats are made, but then the person can hide behind vagueness. It’s when vague statements are repeated, and emphasised, after clarification is asked for (such as his response to Grung0r’s comment) that it gets scary.
IMHO, folks shouldn’t be pressuring someone else to make a formal report, if they have reasons not to.
The FBI tips site that Therrin linked @401 asks for full name, address, contact info, and 3000 words of tip information; and a warning that false information could lead to fines/imprisonment.
I’d also say, in my very humble and nonprofessional opinion, that this *probably* isn’t a serious threat of physical violence. Maybe it’s for attention, or trying to provoke some shitstorm or other, or maybe it’s just a particularly vicious way of getting at another commenter. He might be in the process of losing it, and we’re just lucky enough to witness the beginning of a multi-year slide. Usually actual assassin types have to psych themselves up over time before they can actually carry out a public act of violence.
However, none of that obviates the need to keep a record of the threat and be vigilant, because we can’t assume any of it. And that of course makes it a particularly effective ass move.
I note he specifically threatened pseudonymous commenters; maybe he’s trying to force someone to reveal their identity via a law enforcement complaint.
Pteryxx,
I thought about about that, but reached the same conclusion. Even if he is “just joking”, he needs to be aware that making threats (fake or real) is not ok.
And I do respect the desire for anonymity, if something were to develop the reporter could end up involved in the process. Unfortunately, searching for anonymous reporting leads to stories about the group.
Catching up on the Loftus stuff, and yes, I see that as a threat too – saying he’s already decided and it’s just a matter of time… Sounds a little too determined to me.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
One of my oppressed Christian friends is upset that this poll is currently 80% FOR removing ‘under God’ from the Pledge of Allegiance in Mass. Aww, there there… :)
Acton family: Remove ‘under God’ from Pledge of Allegiance
James:
It’s way past time for you to cut the crap. You’ve been going around the mulberry bush with this stupid, ignorant woman for days. You’ve been here half a dozen times asking for advice on how to convince her and you’ve been doing yeoman’s work in your attempts. But she’s not getting it.
So stop it.
1. Tell her—PUBLICLY—that she’s an ignorant ideologue who will stop at nothing to justify her emotional and tribal allegiance even if that means shitting on the basic dignity of fellow citizens.
2. Tell her you suspect she has a moral compass buried under all those layers of Christian tribalism, but if she can’t bring herself above the watermark just enough to see other people and their happiness as even slightly more important than her Fairy Book there’s nothing more to say to her.
3. Make it clear that you find her “morals” repugnant, vile, and evil. If that upsets her then tell her to go think on it quietly by herself until she understands why, because you’re not about to put up with her destructive bullshit anymore.
If you lose her as a friend, then honestly, what did you really lose? At this point you’re merely enabling her bigotry and closed-mindedness by molly-coddling her in conversations. And in doing so you’re supporting her in her identity/voting against civil rights for all.
Some people can’t be reasoned with, James. Some people will wake up when they get a rhetorical slap in the face, but some won’t. But please don’t keep going on with the melodrama and begging us for advice dealing with this asshole. Grow up and tell her what she should have heard from you months ago.
Y’know, folks IN that thread called Loftus out for the “guns” comment, so he could’ve bothered to say it was metaphorical if he actually cared. He could’ve even been a douche about it and continued to attack people by saying “You people really are paranoid, politically correct little weasels aren’t you? Only an idiot would think I meant LITERAL guns…” and go on from there.
That he didn’t, can only mean that he doesn’t WANT anyone reassured who saw a potential threat in what he said.
And I say that even though I’m 99% sure it’s only a metaphor.
*addendum to myself: Unless, going by the timestamps, Loftus hasn’t read the responses yet. Fair enough.
Mind you, if the Australian conference is the one Loftus is talking about and he’s actually not metaphorical about the shooting, then that would imply some very shady connections in Australia. Guns are not easy to get here. They’re not easy to bring here. If you don’t need one for your work (and it has to be a good reason, law enforcement, military, and some for farming (but not handguns) are the only things I can think of) then they are not something you can obtain legally.
Algernon:
Exactly. People who imagine, or worse, insist on someone who has been terribly damaged getting over it or fixing it or what not are full of shit, and they often cause harm. I wasn’t just damaged. I was shattered, along with many other people. I will never know who I was supposed to be.
Life right now isn’t terrible, I’m relatively happy and content, however, I will live with what happened to me every day of my life and I will live with the fallout of what happened every day. The problems and issues are manageable, not gone. It took most of my life to reach relatively happy and content, too. Most of those years weren’t great.
In a nutshell. Moving on, that can be accomplished. There’s no help at all in thinking that the past, or its myriad effects, can be changed or made to go away.
This is the paradigmatic example of what’s wholly fucked up about FtB’s comment system. And it’s way, way fucked.
Folks, please, please, please do away with nested (and confusingly numbered/time-stamped) comments altogether. Some of your crew are incapable of grokking how it’s IMPOSSIBLE to follow a conversation on their blog because you can’t tell who’s responded since your last visit, and it’s impossible to know who’s talking to whom when the fucking reply thread narrows itself down to two characters at a time vertically. Jesus.
At the very least, please implement a system that allows us to sort comments by date. Your bloggers—who are frakkin’ awesome. . . I love FtB—can’t be trusted to shut off the maddening nested bullshit. So please do it for them?
Thanks and love,
SpokesGay
Happiestsadist:
Brave news, I’d be foolishly happy too! Best of luck with the pelvis digging party, too. If there’s pain, yell for morphine, that stuff is wonderful. :D
…Do comments from TET get passed on to the FTB backchannel just by PZ himself, or do other main bloggers read here? It seems like an awful lot of work either way…
…
*suddenly feels like it’s being watched*
O_O
Loftus *always* reads responses, even in nested threads. He’s usually very keen to get the last word.
Happiestsadist:
(hug).
Chigau:
(hug)
I used to assume this was a set-and-forget type thread for PZ until one day he commented in it. Even accounting for his experience reading quickly, I can’t imagine how he keeps up on everything here plus work plus travel (plus BOOK!).
Maybe he’s evolved a USB port to his brain? 3.0 of course.
(No wait, Mac user, gotta be IEEE 1394.)
PZ, any chance we can get post specific comment rss feeds rather than just the blog specific comments feed?
From http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPress_Feeds
Therrin:
PZ doesn’t read every comment, he’s said as much, even tried to explain how he sees the comments – it’s not like we do.
There’s no reason whatsoever to assume PZ “passes on” any comment.
@ james
Wow, you have held out well. I would have commented more but kristinc beat me to everything I would have said, and said it better. I see Sandra has resorted to lying and misrepresenting your position. Obviously you are rattling her cage. (I cannot really see you getting through to her, but your fangs are starting to look really sniny.)
@ pelamun
Rather quiet at Maryam‘s blog, so I will cross post here. I would also like to share with the horde.
The Malaysian government has done something really atrocious and should be called out as loudly and as often as we can muster. They are spending millions on their international image and this is really a weak point for them. If they spread information on the internet, so can we. If they window-dress their country, we can subvert that message.
Animated gif: Malaysia, Truly
AsiaBetrays ya!Indeed he is. In this case though, the responses apart from mine came several hours after the fact. He honestly may not have noticed.
Indecently, Thank you Echidna and Coyote, for backing me up in the thread responding to Daniel on Camels with Hammers. I was beginning to feel a bit…oversensitive replying all by myself.
Beer-related question: I’ve heard from multiple people that hops are related to cannabis.
That being the case, has anyone ever tried brewing beer with cannabis in place of hops?
Just how good would this hypothetical cannabeer be?
Thank you for blazing a trail.
You’re welcome, of course.
If it had been an atheist saying something similar on a christian blog, could you imagine the shitstorm that would erupt as they nod and go on about atheism and sociopathy?
BTW, I think the word you meant to use was ‘incidentally.’
Goddammit.
HA!
Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon
Anyone got some pointers/link suggestions of rebuttals to the claim that Jesus’s ideas were unique (or at least unusual) for his time?
I know there were various other messianic sects around that time, but I don’t know of a good essay describing them and showing how Christian ideas are very clearly part of a larger stream, not unusual or unique. Maybe something from Ebon Musings, Loftus’ Debunking Christianity, or Cline’s About.com Atheism pages…?
grung0r, I’ve popped in a reply, too. I find it very alarming.
Jesse, Richard Carrier’s blog has some good stuff on that.
Jesse:
How’s about an essay regarding a near contemporary of Jesus'(not that Jesus really existed)and fellow stoic Musonius Rufus, who’s philosophy the essay argues is not only similar to Jesus’, but all together superior?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/musonius.html
Nicely done, Alethea.
(Now having re-read the thread, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned Loftus. But, I suppose his work is still useful even considering the current problems.)
Cool, I shall look into Carrier’s work, and post what I find. (sorry for all the short comments…) Thanks!
Coyote:
Can you please git out there and kill me a rabbit, or show me how to git one (some fowl would do as a substitute)? I’m hungry as shit and I could use some fresh critter up in this cast-iron pan.
Thank you.
@ Jesse W.
ALL of the year-gods are grafted onto the same stock myths (this extends far beyond the Levant). Specific religions you will want to look up (relevant to that time and region) are the following: Attis, Dionysus and Adonis (though there are many others). The jebus tropes are largely plagiarisms of jaded corn-god myths.
Standard fare for corn-gods was the whole death/rebirth fairytale, as well as the idea that the sacrificed god would act as scapegoat and die for our sins.
When early xtians where asked to explain how it could be that a near identical man-god in the form of Attis could do all the things that jebus was supposed to do, they managed to work out that Satan (PBUH) could travel back in time by inverting the course of nature and planting the tales in history. (Yeah, I cann’t make this shit up… and don’t ask me to try and explain how this was supposed to work.)
If you need specific citations, you might have to wait until I can dig them out. (The old brain is getting rusty. I have posted this on TET before, but can’t recall when.)
If you want to look up on Zeus being ransacked by the xtians for slogans, there are also a lot of expressions among the evangelists that have been around a very long time. “Living Waters”,… that kind of crap. Dionysus (one translation gives: “Son of Zeus”) was the “twice born” (ie: “reborn”) son of Zeus. “Saviour of Mankind”, yadda, yadda. There is nothing new under the stars.
Aahhh, but what about Wheat God(esses)? Do they not rise on the third day?
Josh: Bunny season is just around the corner. How to get one? well there are multiple options.
1: Snaring. Pros: Saves energy. Works while you sit on your butt. Cons: I will NOT, I repeat, NOT, risk strangling someone’s kitty by accident just to get a bit of meat.
2: Stalking. Pros: I enjoy it. You get exercise. It’s fun? Cons: Requires skill, technique, stamina, both for stalking, and for accurate kills. Can be hard to find truly productive bunny habitat out here that isn’t a public area where, let’s face it, acts of predation would be downright traumatizing for any who aren’t into it.
3: “The professional way”. Pros: a 22 rifle takes the difficulty level down several notches. Cons: You need a license. You need a rifle. You need an area where rabbits are found, AND where there’s absolutely no risk of tragic hunting accidents involving the general public.
As for fowl, young pigeon seems to be a fairly plentiful standby. If you can climb and access pigeon nests, and you’re lucky enough to get a bird that’s just pre-fledging, supposedly the meat is really nice. I know from handling fledgeling pigeons that they actually weigh more than an adult. From what I heard, they fatten their young up, then abandon them for a while to exercise their wings and lose some weight before taking their first flight.
The cons here are obvious. I don’t know how in shape you are, but raiding a cavity nesting bird like a pigeon requires determination, creativity, and dexterity. Be as the orangutans: Try to always have three limbs gripping something.
Yeah… hunting’s a challenge, dude. The supermarket is easier.
Coyote, I think I’d enjoy number two. May as well have a fun challenge.
Oh yeah, also, maybe try for gray squirrels. I dunno about the situation wherever you are, but here the gray squirrels seem to crowd out the native douglas squirrels, which I find to be charming, endearing, and hilarious animals. Gray squirrels are fairly meaty, and can probably be safely taken with a pellet gun if you know there’s a solid backing behind it in case you miss.
It’s all gray squirrels here in New England and the North Atlantic. If you don’t get ’em for meat, they’re in your atticz making are your floorboardz are belong to them.
Believe me, I know you can stew any critter and make it taste good. I have a slow-cooker and I’m not afraid to use it.
Josh: Ah, nice. OK. If you’re in the country: Barns. Get permission. Most farmers want them gotten rid of.
If in the city: Try overpasses, and any general areas you see them hanging out. Um… in cities, I think pigeons tend to nest more on high buildings. I most definitely would NOT go there myself…
Fair warning: Pigeon nests are a kind of masonry made from straw, shit, and the occasional mummified pigeon corpse. Try not to breathe if it’s really bad.
I suppose, any information I have for you from here might not be the kind of thing everyone on TET wants to see, so maybe we can take this to email if you want?
Oh, hell, why not, TLC. You know my email. Spokesgay at g mail. I’m total crap at anything that needs hand-eye coordination but I wouldn’t mind trying out some stick-hunting-things for shits and giggles.
@ Josh
As it was written in the Book of Phoenicia (KJV): 1 Theo 2:12 “And Loh, did She go forth to the Ends of the Earth. And there was She lain for three days within a jar of the Finest Crystal. This within a cave in darkness was She kept.”
See also: 1 Theo 20:1 “And Her Acolytes did give unto Her the Wheat of the Land which they had cut asunder. And verily also of the Living Waters and of the Salt of the Earth. And for Three days did she lie there in Death, but on the Third Day did She bring forth Life. Verily She is the Living Goddess.”
If you ever need Revelation of the Truth ™ then you must but avail yourself of Her Munificence.
…..
* (KJV = King Josh Version)
I stop by long enough to offer the gift of Heartless Bastards.
Parted Ways
Got To Have Rock And Roll
Low Low Low
Down In The Canyon