I thought they went extinct. But here’s one from the debate on gay marriage in the Washington state legislature.
(Episode CCXCIX: Secular America).
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
I thought they went extinct. But here’s one from the debate on gay marriage in the Washington state legislature.
(Episode CCXCIX: Secular America).
Sheesh. 500 comments, and no-one mentions that this episode is also an initialism for The Campus Crusade for Cthulhu?
For shame. Do you all want to be eaten last?
Yes, yes it is.
Owlmirror, I was thinking that it could be the Council Of Conservative Citizens but found it to be just too depressing.
For Caine and everyone else: There’s a rat
BTW, I’m listening to Prairie Home Companion and My Brightest Diamond is one of the reasons I listen.
‘cuse me while I hug my guitar incompetently.
Libby Anne has changed her post in response to Ibis3’s comment, and it’s now much better. I’m still not happy about the anecdote (or the way she responded to some of the comments), but someone’s asked her for a link to the thread(s) in question so perhaps that can be settled.
Asking around in the ex-mormon community for jello recipes prompted this reply:
Wondering if jello could assuage some of the problems Rev BDC has been having with queens?
I am doing a new cooking experiment. I will post the recipe if it turns out positive!
No way I’m going to get caught up before Game time. *sigh*
–
Esteleth, congrats on the diplomisation and dissertationisation. :)
–
Oh, yes. You landscape around ’em. Big ass real ones, dragged in for the purpose, too.
It’s been a few years, but I remember a case where some guy stole a piece of stone with Native American artwork on it, out of a national park, if I remember right, and took it home to be his lawn’s centerpiece.
–
This.
–
You custom-make it to fit.
–
Game time!
:) :) :)
–
Event thought it was cold, SlutWalk was awesome, especially the part when I got the cops called on me.
INTERNET TEASE!
Having a criminal record (even one gained as a youth) can make the rest of your life … difficult.
I didn’t get arrested. The troll from the facebook page showed up. I hurt his feeling, so he called me a bitch and called the campus PD. It was funny. I didn’t even get talked to by the cops (because I didn’t do anything, you know, illegal). Anyway, he was way easier to upset than I thought he would be. I was disappoint.
Regarding the blasphemy law:
German judge decides that you can call the Catholic church a “sect of ch*ld-f*ckers” (Kinderf*ckersekte).
A German blogger had called the RCC that, which prompted the prosecution to bring charges of blasphemy.
While the judge agreed that this defamation of the church would probably indeed constitute blasphemy, she could not see how this would disturb public order, since the number of child abuse cases was so staggering and the church complicit in covering them up.
Accordingly the case was thrown out. (I guess a write-up for my blog is in order)
(The comments to the blog entry from the most popular German legal blog are encouraging. Many posters are saying that a blasphemy law has no place in a secular society, and the Islamophobes trying to derail the conversation towards Islam and Muhammad are in a distinct minority.
Also, during a party, we played “fifty states”, and we discovered that Maryland has two motti (mottos?), one in Italian which is sexist, and the other in Latin which is religious:
– Fatti maschi, parole femine (male deeds, female words)
– Scuto bonae voluntatis tuae coronasti nos (You have crowned us with the shield of your goodwill)
A special mention goes to Oklahoma, which managed to change “Love conquers all” to “Work conquers all” (Labor vincit omnia) (though apparently both can be found in Virgil’s work)
Whitney Houston is dead.
I’m trying to post something pertaining to a blasphemy court case, but the post keeps being rejected. Is there a list of filtered words somewhere? A very bad word is at the centre of the case, you see, directed at a religious organisation.
StarStuff
What powers do your Campus cops have?
also
“I hurt his feeling” (singular) is funny.
How big was he?
Regarding the blasphemy law:
German judge decides that you can call the Catholic church a “sect of ch*ld-f*ckers” (Kinderf*ckersekte).
A German blogger had called the RCC that, which prompted the prosecution to bring charges of blasphemy.
While the judge agreed that this defamation of the church would probably indeed constitute blasphemy, she could not see how this would disturb public order, since the number of child abuse cases was so staggering and the church complicit in covering them up.
Accordingly the case was thrown out.
(The comments to the blog entry from the most popular German legal blog are encouraging. Many posters are saying that a blasphemy law has no place in a secular society, and the Islamophobes trying to derail the conversation towards Islam and Muhammad are in a distinct minority.
Also, during a party, we played “fifty states”, and we discovered that Maryland has two motti (mottos?), one in Italian which is sexist, and the other in Latin which is religious:
– Fatti maschi, parole femine (male deeds, female words)
– Scuto bonae voluntatis tuae coronasti nos (You have crowned us with the shield of your goodwill)
A special mention goes to Oklahoma, which managed to change “Love conquers all” to “Work conquers all” (Labor vincit omnia) (though apparently both can be found in Virgil’s work)
@ chigau
Our campus PD is a normal police department, except they deal with more drunk people than most.
He was normal sized, I guess. I don’t know. Bigger than me (like most people). I really freaked him out because I knew his real name (he was posting using a fake name on facebook, but someone I talked to at the SlutWalk knew him and told me his name). I guess he can say shit just fine when no one knows who he is, but if we know his name, suddenly it’s not ok.
citation?
The link keeps getting rejected. Why?
If you read German and don’t know the name of the most important German legal blog, contact me for the link…
I’ll try a link from the offending blog instead whose owner was charged by the prosecution..
http://www.schockwellenreiter.de/blog/2012/02/09/gotteslasterungs-update-3/
http://www.schockwellenreiter.de/blog/2012/02/09/gotteslasterungs-update-3/
http://www.nytimes.com
StarStuff
I asked about CampusCops because the two Canadian Universities I attended had on-Campus Security that kinda looked like and kinda acted like Real Police.
They could hassle people but if anything more was needed they had to call the Real Police.
How does the link filtering on this blog work? Does it also bar you from posting links whose content has offending words, but not the link itself?
The legal blog link had the bad word in its URL.
The offending blog whose owner was charged did not have the bad word in its URL, but of course mentions it in its post (“the court has allowed me the right to call a sect of child-fuckers a sect of child-fuckers”).
sisu,
I forgot to mention that it was “Breaking News”. I don’t provide links to breaking news, because I often get them at a point in time where most news outlets haven’t reported on them yet (and I receive them on my iPad). But if you don’t believe me, feel free to check Google News.
chigau,
many US universities have sworn police officers in their police forces.
Maybe. I know that I couldn’t post a (corrected) URL that PZ himself posted (the Islamic “science” site about flys’ wings).
You could try tinyurl or other link-shortener sites.
Nerd, all the best to you and the Redhead. Take care.
JeffreyD, heal up well.
Walton, this lurker values your posts a lot. Though I see the point(s) of those disagreeing with you, please don’t vanish. Your evolving perspective and thoroughly researched posts are usually well worth reading and digesting.
OK, though otherwise rather thread bankrupt, i’ll offer hugs and chocolate as wanted.
I will say that though I am a very infrequent poster, I tend to read almost every post in the TET thread (ha! Take that! I use the automated ATM machine, too!). Though I don’t know any of you, I do have a fondness for many of you. I have used the word though far too many times in this post, so to the meat…
It’s sausage makin’ night! 5 lbs of venison sausage and 10 lbs of Jagerwurst. They’ll cure overnight and we’ll grind and stuff tomorrow. Then, I’ll fire up the smoker, cook ’em to perfection, and Mrs. G. And her rennie friends wil have sausages for the next few weeks, and i’ll keep my payment for breakfast and snacks.
Bacon, too. About 10-15 lbs to cure now and smoke next weekend. At least 3 different ways. Peppered, plain, and??? Maybe maple? Any suggestions? Rev. BDC?
Cooking success!
Cheeseburger pie!
1) Prepare pie crust!
2) Brown BEEF! (season as you like), cook with chopped unions
3) Drain fat form BEEF!
4) Put BEEF! Into mixing bowl, mix in bread crumbs (about a hand full) an egg, 1 can diced tomatoes, and shredded chedder cheese,
5) preheat oven to 345
6) Put BEEF! mix into crust in a glass pie bowl
7) Cook for about 35-45 minutes. Ten minutes before the end sprinkle on crispy onions as a crust
8) Take out, drizzle on ketchup in a cris cross as frosting and let cool
Owlmirror,
I’m confused because the bad word was “child-fuckers” and it allowed me to post it. So it must be the links themselves? At least I was able to link to the New York Times…
But what’s the problem with a legal blog and a personal blog (I’m not sure if the blog owner is an atheist, but he’s an IT specialist and doesn’t like the RCC)?
*shakes head*
So obvious. So didn’t occur to me. D’oh.
Ing, not to rain on your parade, but Bisquick has had a recipe for cheeseburger pie for ages:
1 lb ground beef
1 cup chopped onion
1/2 tsp salt
1 cup shredded Cheddar cheese
1 cup milk
1/2 cup Bisquick baking mix
2 eggs
Heat oven to 400 degrees F.
Cook ground beef and onion; drain. Stir in salt. Spread in greased 9″ pie plate; sprinkle with cheese.
Stir remaining ingredients with fork until blended. Pour into plate.
Bake 25 minutes or until knife inserted in center comes out clean. 8 servings.
@pelamun I checked cnn.com and gawker before I posted and didn’t see anything. Now it’s been confirmed… how sad. Crack is wack, y’all.
Lynna:
Oh god, I just laughed so hard that I peed a little. :D
In other news, I went to my mom’s tonight and found out that she threw out all of her cookbooks with the exception of her 1972 BH&G*. So, no Vienna sausage/jello salad for me. :(
But! Funny story: her BH&G cookbook had a very similar recipe to the Mo’ Shrimp Jell-o Salad– instead of lemon Jell-o, it has unflavored and instead of ketchup, it uses condensed tomato soup, but otherwise it is the same recipe, right down to the “small can of shrimp”.
Thank you very much, Lynna! I will be making the version that you sent to me (the lemon Jell-o just piques my interest) and I’m gonna make Josh eat a HUGE piece!
*Quote from my mom: “I threw out all of my old cookbooks and bought new ones, but they all suck!”
I didn’t have the heart to tell her that, yes, cookbooks are really shitty right now. At least half of my cookbooks are totally and completely useless.
PS: I’ll post pictures of it, too.
Pelamun:
Nearly two people die every second, world-wide.
(Why should anyone care more about hers than those others?)
Appreciation of art?
*inches away from Jell-O salads* There are just some things I will not eat. No, I don’t care if you offer to pay me ten million bucks – not eating that stuff.
————————————–
Whitney Houston? Dead? There goes another piece of my childhood.
Fuck, I can’t even say, “At least she went out on a high note.” No pun intended. She went out with a whimper, or maybe a gasp. Um . . . I guess the most I can say is that I hope she didn’t die slowly and painfully. Because no matter who you are, dying that way has to suck big sweaty donkey balls.
————————————–
Aaaand on a more cheerful note, never had cheeseburger pie but it sounds tasty.
John, do you have to go so far out of your way to be an asshole? There are people who liked the music she made, they have every right to be sadden by how she destroyed herself.
#531 John, consistency is not nearly as important as you think. It is OK not to be an ass at times. Klunk/Flush
John Morales,
first, she was quite young, 48, I think. I’m always sad when I hear about anyone dying so young.
second, have a look at the news cites, or even freethoughtsblogs. Many people cared about her music. No-one says you have to.
Dr.Audley
lawks! Your Mom!
“threw out cookbooks”
fainting couch, here I come
John Morales
Some of the “lesser people” care.
chigau:
I know, right? I could have cried.
But the thing that really kills me is that she knows that I would have happily taken them, but she threw them out anyway. :(
John Morales:
What the hell is wrong with you? Are you a robot or some shit?
Implying that someone’s feelings on the matter aren’t valid is an extremely shitty thing to do.
But my guess is that you already know that.
pelamun, 48 years of age ain’t young.
—
chigau:
That wasn’t the issue, you know. The parenthetical was “Why should anyone care more about hers than those others?”
Others have provided their answer: one should care more if one liked her music.
(On that basis, I guess I get a pass)
Ing – I am pretty sure you just made a meatloaf.
Saw news about Whitney, not about how it happened – I’m guessing drugs were involved, given her problems over the last few years. Possibly not the proximate cause, but part of what wore her body out. It’s so sad that someone that successful can still have so many problems and not be able to get enough help coping.
No, form the beef and THEN drain the fat.
Given all of the music links I have provided over the years, do you think that I was a fan? Her death does not mean that much to me one way or the other. But I feel no need to belittle those who care, I feel sad for every artist that I like dies, even if they are not young.
Carlie–
All that I saw was that she died in a Beverly Hills hotel room (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/whitney-houston-has-died-20120211). So, yeah, probably drugs.
John Morales
Sometimes I find your absolute lack of empathy astonishing.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart:
There was no such implication.
—
janine,
To what belittling do you refer?
John:
Yes, it is young. I realize this is your asshole time of month yet again, John, but it seems you don’t. This is one of those times the lesser people are chatting. You might want to find a different place to chat for a bit.
Dang, looks like another talented but troubled singer died young.
*Pullet Patrol™ lowers the
squidchicken and crossbones to half mast**hears laughing from the Pullet Palace*
Well fucking excuse me, no belittling here. You are playing a different game; “Hey, I was just asking.”
Fuck you.
I did okay at bellydance today!
I did not get terribly upset at any point, and my body successfully did a pretty good number of the things I wanted to!
I still need some help and a lot of practice and I feel like I’m behind almost everyone else, but I’m counting today as a victory anyhow. And my translation practice is not even going that badly.
Tsk tsk, carlie, Impossible Cheeseburger Pie is not meatloaf! It’s Impossible Cheeseburger Pie!
I made a potato leek soup for dinner tonight. Well, that was the original plan. I thawed out what I thought were the last cubes of chicken stock from the freezer and poured them into the pot with the wilted leek. It was kind of thick, but I reduce my stock down pretty hard before I freeze it so I thought it was just cold and gelatinous, until I realized it had chunks of ham in it. What would chunks of ham be doing in my chicken broth? It wasn’t chicken broth, it was (THE PEA AVERSE SHOULD SKIP THIS) very thin split pea soup I had made before my dental surgery.
So we had cream of potato-leek-pea-and-ham soup, and it was good, not weird at all.
What was weird, now that I know about it, was the gravy I made for chicken pot pie last week out of that same “stock”. I thought it smelled odd for chicken stock. Split pea gravy.
Label your frozen food!
Caine:
Really.
At what age is someone no longer young?
I think I’m several layers of crazy – http://i.imgur.com/6pihi.jpg
That picture was gonna be a dragon… but then it looked more like a praying mantis head so I was like “screw it! giant praying mantis robot attacking a city.”
Caine, remember, John is just askin’.
Yes, John, really. I am so not in the mood for the nth instance of you having fun by playing asshole.
Audley, Jeffrey, Janine, let me know if anything interesting happens, okay? I’m out.
belittling:
“(Why should anyone care more about hers than those others?)”
—-
and 48 years old is young.
John,
I really shouldn’t have to explain this to an intelligent adult, but fuck it, I’m gonna. When you ask your “innocent questions” they are loaded, whether that’s your intention or not. You are belittling people, as evidenced by the responses that you got.
You should be able to figure this out for yourself by now, you know. I don’t believe for one second that you don’t understand when you’re being obnoxious or when you’re going to get a rise out of people.
You should also know that in the US, the life expectancy for women is 78 years old, so yeah, 48 is pretty fucking young.
@John:
You’re not young when you no longer draw pictures in crayon of giant praying mantis robots attacking cities.
janine:
Well, at least you’re not belittling me!
You get what you give, santorum-for-brains.
Sorry Caine, cannot rely on me to report. I looked at enough puke and mucus this week already.
Guess consistency is important to you, John.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart:
1. Is this always the case? :)
2. No, that people claim I am belittling others doesn’t entail that I was belittling them, only that they perceive it so.
John Morales – “At what age is someone no longer young?”
One year younger than me.
Hey, I was just askin’!
JeffreyD:
Is it not important to you?
kristinc
We store a lot of food in the freezer.
I am obsessive about labelling.
If something unlabelled comes out of the freezer, whoever put it in there is fucking well going to eat it.
Josh, would it be of any help for those of us outside Vermont to write to the bill’s sponsor, Bill Frank, to express our opinions?
I gather from this discussion that the motivation here isn’t Protecting The Children™, but money for the state. As is often the case with such legislation.
Kristinc: I strongly suspect, too, that there’s more than a little misogyny at play when it comes to the asschapeaux congratulating the father. If it had been a 15-year-old boy, I don’t think the reaction would have been as powerful, but lots of people love a “put the little bitch in her place” story.
James Michael: I typed up several paragraphs dissecting Sandra’s opinions, but I think everybody else here already said what needs to be said. She’s an asshole who is probably a bully, definitely an enabler of bullies. She’s also stupid as fuck. If you choose to argue with her, do it for the lurkers. Changing what passes for her mind is probably futile.
TheMatrix: Cheney’s daughter Mary is a lesbian.
WHAT?! Link?
Theophontes: There are a few different UD pages on TAA, depending on whether the “The” is included and on whether there are spaces between the words. His detractors, unfortunately, don’t seem to care about his misogyny; they’re mostly mocking him for being fat and for his banana-related activities.
Giliell:
This should be embroidered on a pillow. Really. It says it all.
Beatrice: Go for it.
Ing/HappiestSadist: The ZomBees.
StarStuff, 1; whiny-ass troll, 0.
John:
How the fuck should I know? I don’t follow you around reading your pithy fucking comments all day long.
What’s the quote that is always used in these situations? Ah yes, intent isn’t fucking magic.
So, in other words, you’ve got it perfectly backwards– your intention isn’t as important as how it’s perceived.
Jeffrey, Caine:
Hell, I’ve got nothing better to do tonight. Unless this shit gets really bad, then I’m going back to my book.
Ralph Waldo Emerson:
*snort*
Can I borrow your wand?
Also:
Also known as the “it’s not my fault that you were offended” defense.
Let me tell you how much I fucking love that one.
John Morales
Sometimes I find your lack of empathy absolute astonishing.
Question, John:
Would you be so heartless that if someone was mourning the loss of a loved one that you’d pull the same shit? Would you actually ask someone why they cared since “nearly two people die every second, world-wide”?
If not, then yeah, in this instance you’re just being a belittling asshole.
What’s the spell for that again? depreciare?
Ing:
What are you, some kinda’ Republican? ;^)
(Sorry; couldn’t resist….)
***
Made this almond chicken soup with collards, sweet potato, and ginger for me and my Lovely Bride® tonight, after getting the recipe from a coworker. Frickin’ delicious; highly recommended!
Lesson learned: It pays to say, “that smells wonderful; what is it?”
Josh, would it be of any help for those of us outside Vermont to write to the bill’s sponsor, Bill Frank, to express our opinions?
I gather from this discussion that the motivation here isn’t Protecting The Children™, but money for the state. As is often the case with such legislation.
Kristinc: I strongly suspect, too, that there’s more than a little misogyny at play when it comes to the asschapeaux congratulating the father. If it had been a 15-year-old boy, I don’t think the reaction would have been as powerful, but lots of people love a “put the little bitch in her place” story.
James Michael: Everyone else has taken Sandra’s arguments apart fairly well. Unless you’re arguing with her for the sake of lurkers, I don’t see the point. She’s aggressively stupid, and she’s a rancid asshole. You’re not going to penetrate the three-inch-thick concrete bunker that is her skull.
TheMatrix: Cheney’s daughter Mary is a lesbian.
WHAT?! Link?
Theophontes: There are a few different UD pages on TAA, depending on whether the “The” is included and on whether there are spaces between the words. His detractors, unfortunately, don’t seem to care about his misogyny; they’re mostly mocking him for being fat and for his banana-related activities.
Giliell:
This is an amazing sentence which should be embroidered and hung on walls.
Beatrice: Go for it.
IIRC, expelliarmus disarms, but it doesn’t necessarily bring the wand to you; I think you’d need to follow up with accio wand… and even then, “borrowing” seems like a polite word for it. I think the spell for truly borrowing a wand is… can I borrow your wand? </geek>
chigau:
Well, nice to know you have no lack of empathy for me. :)
—
I dunno — but you did make an universal claim as if you did know.
You’re claiming that if someone feels something is belittling, then that something is perforce belittling.
(Me, I think there’s more to it than that)
John:
Of course you do ‘cos you’re still making the “it’s not your fault that anyone was offended” argument.
Jesus Christ, that is some serious immature bullshit right there.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart:
1. I doubt it. I would know why they cared more about a loved one than about a stranger.
2. The parenthetical, as I’ve already noted, was “Why should anyone care more about hers than those others?”.
(I like her music is a fair-enough answer, if not particularly edifying)
John,
Still, it’s not terribly consistent, is it?
To Josh, in re your posted letter in comment 313:
Yeah, I know it was ~250 comments back, but one line in your letter bothered me. Nicotine is not a low addiction substance on par with caffeine. Many researchers have stated that it is about as addictive as heroin. (See e.g. http://www.springerlink.com/content/f758v682pu21j464/ ) In my not so humble opinion, the only reason that nicotine hasn’t been classified as a Schedule II drug (made illegal for use without a dire medical need and a tightly controlled prescription) is because (a) money, (b) so many people are already addicted and in denial, and (c) money. I could not let this correction pass, because no one else mentioned it, and this one error in an otherwise excellent letter seemed glaringly obvious to me. Nicotine is the reason why so many people are eager to pay to slowly kill themselves with horrible diseases, and why people who desperately want to quit either can not or relapse.
.
As far as those disgustingly nauseating 1950’s jello recipes… AARRGGHH!! Please, for the love of cat, stop. Same for the Mormon or Midwest version of cottage cheese or mayonnaise-based haute cuisine, I beg you, no more! (What cook-missionary is brave enough to show these people that spices, real spices, something more than salt-and-pepper won’t kill you?)
.
Oh yes, kristinc, I had to snort, chortle, and outright laugh at your humorously described split pea enhanced gravy. Not that *I* have ever (admitted) done anything (technically quite exactly) like that. Oh no. As any experienced cook knows, if it still tastes good when you’re done, then by definition it wasn’t a “mistake”. It was a ummm… daring culinary experiment. *grin* Fortunately, I have a (very) forgiving spouse. Besides, no one has ever died from my cooking (and complained afterwards).
John Morales
So, it’s really not an act.
You really do not get it.
[meta]
Do you read fiction (any kind)?
Oh for petes sake Morales. If ANY person were important enough for someone here to say “this person died” then I’d assume SOMEONE gave a crap. After all, they bothered to mention it, which they wouldn’t have done if they didn’t care or expect that other folks would. Sheesh.
Jerry:
Pfffffft, I won’t stop ’til I’m dead!
Okay, okay, okay. I already promised Rey Fox that I’d stop (and reneged, whoops!) and I’ve found my recipe, so I won’t torture you all any more. :)
You are such an asshole Morales.
Jerry:
What is it about the fact that it is not the nicotine that gives you lung cancer and accelerates heart disease do you not understand? Seriously? Is it that you actually don’t understand that it’s the nicotine that hooks you on a dangerous form of delivery, i.e. tobacco smoke, but that it isn’t the nicotine itself that is the major problem?
If you can get to the point where you understand this, would you still defend attempts to make it impossible for people to get clean nicotine and instead make them likely to go back to cigarettes?
chigau, you think if I “got it” I would agree with those dissing me and repent, and that therefore, since I disagree and accordingly do not repent, I don’t get it?
And yes, I read fiction.
(In my teens and twenties, I averaged around ten books per week)
—
My comment didn’t deny the assigned importance implicit in mentioning the deceased, rather it questioned the basis for such assignation of importance relative to others.
(Apparently, it is difficult for many people to distinguish between ‘care’ and ‘care more’)
I never said it was a low addiction substance. You made that up, probably not deliberately, because it’s what you wanted to read. Seriously. Go back and read what I wrote.
The physiological effects of nicotine are similar (not exactly the same) as caffeine in terms of being a stimulant. Yes, it’s much more addictive than caffeine.
So what? Why in the world would you think that’s a legitimate reason to make it a schedule II drug? Are you, like the rest of the drug policy people, incapable of understanding that it’s the the dangerous effects of drugs that make them horrific, not the fact that they’re addictive alone?
Seriously-what’s wrong with people about this issue? You’re a lunatic if you actually advocate restricting clean nicotine access in an environment where people are likely to return to smoking (you know, the thing that can actually kill you).
Yes but I made mine because partner hated the bisquick one.
Yes it is meatloaf…but in a pie!….also with cheese in it.
HURRAY I’M IMMORTAL!
Wait….what?
How do you do that and not pick up on any of the quirks of human nature?
Ah, actually I take some of that back. I did, in fact, write that nicotine was on a par with caffeine for addiction as well as physical effects. That was wrong, and it isn’t even what I meant to say because I’ve always known that isn’t true–it’s much more addictive.
Sorry about that, Jerry, you were right. I was so mad when I wrote that letter I was typing too fast.
On the rest of the issues, however, I feel the same. There’s no ethically justifiable or health-related excuse for treating nicotine in halers the way cigarettes are treated.
I’m sure there are lots of reasons why no one here likes you.
How do you know Whitney Houston was a stranger to everyone here? I’ll have you know she was my friend’s sister’s husband’s cousin. Or so I heard. No, I never met her, but for chrissakes, human beings care about shit sometimes, and we’re not discussing how the world works or what is moral or something, just noting the passing of an artist. And having a conversation about it. You know, social stuff.
Fuck.
Morales:
In other words, why should anyone care. Yeah, that’s dismissive verging on invalidating. And you didn’t ask “relative to others”, you asked relative to every random stranger in the world that dies. Unless you REALLY expect someone to post “Another 120 people just died” every 60 seconds, you’re not asking any reasonable question at all. You’re just being an ass.
Why wouldn’t you just presume that the mere fact that someone knows the name of one of the plethora of people who die that they care because they are simply aware of the event. The difference between an event and a statistic.
this will be late
John Morales
When you were reading all that fiction, did you feel a connection with (an understanding of) any of the characters. Or the situations?
Were you thinking,
“That’s stupid, unicorns don’t exist!”
or
“That’s stupid, they should ride the unicorns downstream!”
I like that. Yeah, the Rev has a certain je ne sais quoi.
younger than some of us, man
andrewbrown
Terri Schiavo
I’m over here!!
Josh,
I never addressed this point, but I can see where you might think otherwise. I AGREE with you. I think nicotine inhalers should be readily available, given that the much more harmful versions (tobacco in cigs, snuff, etc.) are ubiquitous. I should have phrased it differently: if discovered today, tobacco would have been classified as Schedule II (like marijuana). [Of course, that would not have helped, given that the War on Drugs(tm) has been proven to be a failure, as are most types of Prohibition that attempt to counter the human needs for stimulants and other drugs. See http://www.globalcommissionondrugs.org/Report ]
Because artists are special. They give to people they’ll never know.
There you have it.
Looks like we agree on most of it, Jerry. I’m four-square against prohibition and the Drug War. The cost in human lives is a horror. And the fact that we have to have political tussles over nicotine being available to people (!) is a direct result of the prohibitionist mentality.
I was not ever, and wouldn’t be now, an “apologetic” smoker. I refused to wear the Shame Shirt and talk about the error of my ways, or accept that I should understand why I should pay exorbitant taxes (which got funneled to the general fund or schools) to “help” me quit, or accept that paternalistic scolding and moral shaming were justified because I was A Smoker and we know they’re Not Human. If I could get away with it without killing myself, I would – I enjoyed it.
But I also enjoy being alive, and I like that I can take control over this part of my health (on my terms, as my own decision) in a way I wasn’t able to earlier. I don’t want to cajole anyone into stopping smoking/drinking/overeating or any other thing they do. But I do want to make sure harm-reducing alternatives are available.
artists and entertainers both.
Hi thread! I see John Morales has lit off a stink bomb in the lounge but claims he isn’t responsible for the stench.
Hi John…How is your spouse doing?
CLassical Cipher
Yay you! I love dance, but as far as belly-dance goes my hips simple don’t move like that.
You were seriously unable to deduce for yourself about liking her music?
There are other reasons I can think of, too:
-they could relate to her struggles with substance abuse
-they liked Bobby Brown’s music and are thinking about how sad Bobby Brown (her husband, in case you didn’t know) must feel
-they once lost a relative at the same age for similar reasons (body ravaged by years of addiction) (that’s me, BTW)
Tell me truly. You literally, sincerely could not think of any of those possibilities?
You do have problems getting inside other people’s minds then. This isn’t that hard, at least if you’re neurotypical.
chigau,
got back on i see, what was on your mind?
To die? 70.
John Morales
I want to continue (you and me) but I must to bed.
Are you still willing?
John, it’s simple: Your own argument implies that Whitney Houston’s death is no more important to you than any of the other numberless stranger-deaths you presumably don’t spend any time mourning, right? That being the case, on what grounds could how other people feel about it possibly be important to you?
If someone says “I feel bad about {X},” and {X} is something you don’t particularly care about or think is important, it doesn’t mean the person doesn’t really feel bad. Since {X} is not important to you, why would how someone else feels about {X} be? Unless, of course, what is important to you is sneering at others over what they care about.
It’s really hard to see posts like yours that started this as anything other than deliberately poking sticks in wounds.
In what world is “I’m saddened by the death of someone who made my life better” not edifying?
I’m genuinely unsure whether John Morales has an ingrained deficiency of empathy (such that he honestly has no idea how callous he is) or if he’s actively malicious and enjoys playing the sociopath because other people’s being upset gives him a charge.
andrewbrown
Thanks for coming.
My issue with Terri Shiavo case (sorry if bad spelling) was that somehow The Courts™ decided that the wishes of some guy (“husband”) were more important than the wishes of people who were actually related to her.
Bill Dauphin:
Bingo.
Shit, I’ve had too much wine tonight, my sinuses feel like they’re on fucking fire, and this entire conversation is about as productive as reading The Waste Land out loud to my turtle.
In other words, I’m giving the fuck up and going to bed. Have a good night(/morning/afternoon), everyone.
SallyStrange:
Doesn’t matter, anyway: Why should anyone have to justify to John why they feel bad about Houston’s death? Commenting about it in a public(ish) forum like this neither picks John’s pockets nor breaks his bones; he has no real reason for demanding explanations, other than to communicate that he thinks others’ feelings are invalid.
(I should note here that I was never a particular Whitney Houston fan, nor am I especially devastated by her loss, personally [anymore than I would be for anyone who died so young]… but I am possessed of enough human decency not to sneer at those who are.)
Wrong. Spectacularly wrong. The courts decided there was sufficient evidence that Schiavo had made it clear when she was still “there” that she wouldn’t want to live on in a vegetative state. The courts also recognized that—surprise, surprise—-when a person chooses to get married they do so because they trust their spouse to be their, for lack of a better term, “next of kin”. It is utterly uncontroversial that married people have the closest legal relationship and one that overrules what parents may want. Seriously, I’m surprised to see you appear not to know this!
Marriage isn’t relation?
Or the fact that the parent’s wishes were insane
Snap, Ing.
Shit sorry
I mean, irrational or unfounded, not insane
Chigau: try this thought experiment, please.
Imagine two gay men or two lesbians who live together as married people (whether the law recognizes them or not), share their house, their lives, their finances, and their pets. Their parents shun them because they’re sinners. They don’t talk to them, they don’t invite them to holiday gatherings, and they badmouth them to the world. You could well understand why this couple would desperately want the legal means to make decisions for each other in case of medical emergency and death.
I think you’d be sympathetic to that, and outraged to find out that homophobic parents could swoop in when one partner dies, and because they’re “actually related” to the dead person, snatch the body away, deny the partner the right to participate in funeral arrangements, and bury the body states away in a place the partner doesn’t know about and so cannot visit.
Guess what —it happens all the time.
Assuming you find that as outrageous as I do, why in the world are you acting as if Terri Schiavo’s husband was some illegitimate interloper?
Well for me, the dispute between parents and husband was one which was tragic and understandable up to a point, one party wanting to let her go and one not.
The thing that really got to me was the way in which nearly everyone attached themselves to it to create this massive media circus where it seemed the least important thing was what was actually under dispute, namely who had the right to make medical decisions on her behalf.
All the ghouls coming out of the woodwork and sticking their oar in turned a tragedy into something far worse, a sustained sadistic orgy where a family’s grief was used as a tool to bang a political drum with.
For the sake of my blood pressure, I’m going to assume you did not mean to make a false equivalence between the people who stood up for the rights of individuals to express their wishes in advance and to have them acted upon by their spouses and the religious nuts who actually used Terri’s corpse as a political pawn for their dominionist agenda. I’m charitably assuming you are not even close to making a “both sides were wrong” argument.
@619 Josh,
Oh Christ on a bike no that would be like equating Mother Theresa with MSF.
N.B.
NSF Médecins Sans Frontières
Thanks Andrew. I just wasn’t sure! I hope it pleases you to know I immediately knew what MSF meant:) I get a shit ton of appeals from them in the mail because I donate from time to time—it always irritates me that they have to put “Doctors Without Borders” in small type next to their name for fuckstick-stupid Mercans.
John, no matter how logically sound your questions or how self obvious your points seem to you, if you don’t want to belittle people’s feelings or come off as a supercilious ass you need to incorporate statements that go “not to dismiss anyone’s grief, I’m honestly seeking to understand” or similar.
This is not complicated, not difficult, and I am honestly astounded that a presumably otherwise high functioning and articulate adult (neurotypical or not) would not have picked up on it, to the point where I join the others who suspect you honestly don’t give a shit.
Somewhat related to the Shiavo case:
Calfornia enacted a law that, in the absence of an Advance Health Care Directive, allows the attending physician to determine who would be the appropriate party of making decisions on behalf of someone who can no longer make such decisions. This is explicitly contrary to many states where the laws about such decisions are set in a specific hierarchy, usually married spouse=>parent=>adult children. California did this explicitly because of so many non-traditional relationships in the state.
I recommend everyone, regardless of state of health, fill out an Advance Health Care Directive and explicitly name an agent. It takes a few minutes to do, a few more to get notorized or witnessed, and you’re done. It can, however, reduce the amount of distress felt by loved ones if the need arises. And you don’t have to be dying for the need to arise: if you’re merely unconscious after a car accident, your agent can still be contacted.
For the record, I named my best friend, and he knows it. This is because I explicitly don’t want my prone-to-emotional-overload mother making any decisions for me; I wouldn’t agree with her, probably, but I also wouldn’t want her placed under that stress.
Josh,
I don’t understand that MSF use their French name in the US at all? What advantage would it have?
MSF, German section: Ärzte ohne Grenzen
MSF, Hong Kong section: 無國界醫生
MSF, Japanese section: 国境なき医師団
MSF, Swedish section: Läkare utan gränser
also, in Indonesia MSF is known as: Dokter Lintas Batas
I gotta remember not to go to IBTP when I’m having trouble focusing and otherwise off and in need of a break :(
Great point Richard, and I urgently, enthusiastically second it.
Also important and usually overlooked—find out if your state has a law allowing you to name an agent to make your funeral arrangements/body disposition decisions. Most of them do, and it’s crucial that you fill out such a form if you don’t want your legal next of kin to have that right, or if you’re worried your kin will fight over your dead body (it happens a lot).
Common and dangerous myth—that your health care proxy will have the right to carry out your funeral arrangements too. Not usually the case except in a minority of states that build that power in to the health care power of attorney statutes. In most cases (stupidly) the health care proxy’s powers dissolve on death. So those very people you were hoping to take out of the decision-making loop are now back in deciding whether to bury, cremate, or tart you up and parade you down Bourbon St.
You might not care about that, and that’s fine. But if you’re a non-hetero non-married couple, you better care about it right fucking now. If you have a health care proxy form in your partner’s name you are not sufficiently protecting him or her when it comes to the funeral part.
@624 Richard Austin
Interesting, I think the Schiavo case is tragic, heartrending and does raise some complex issues surrounding end of life care, medical decisions for those incapacitated and unable to make them etc.
They’re difficult and need sensible nuanced discussion. Unfortunately the shrieking harpies who can’t tell the difference between Zachary and a zygote are demonstrating the old adage about why you should never play chess with a pigeon.
Here’s the “official” California form, btw, but, legally, as long as there are two witnesses and/or notarization, your signature, and an agent named, I don’t think the actual structure matters. There should be plenty of other samples out there.
And, sorry if this isn’t a fun topic, but I work at a comprehensive cancer center and this kind of thing is a Big Fuckin’ Deal. Families get torn to shreds over these decisions.
CC:
Jinx! I just got done reading the great Transphobia Wars of February 2011. My god. I can’t even begin to say.
I am truly gobsmacked at the different takes on Terri Shiavo.
but I am truly out now.
(I hope I can sleep)
You’re damned right it’s a big fucking deal, and if folks think it’s not a Fun Topic now it’s a lot less fucking fun the day someone dies.
Richard, when you get a chance, please email me at spokesgay at gmail.
@Josh:
The California form explicitly designates:
So, if you use this one, you’re covered on that. But good to point out.
Richard: California is one of the states in the minority I was referring to. Sadly, most of them aren’t yet that sensible.
Josh: yeah, but I think this form is legally valid anywhere in the US (and, from what I recall, most places abroad will honor it – or any other AHCD).
Anyway, email sent.
@629
We have similar things down here in NZ, although it’s culture rather than religion causing the grief.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10768285
I have immense admiration for people such as yourself who work in such sensitive and difficult circumstances.
andrewbrown @ 629:
I’m a techie and on the edge of such things, but I’ve done rounds (literally) with the staff. We’ve got some nice peaceful spots on the campus, and I’ve spent more than a few minutes sitting various places because life sucks sometimes and, even third party, you just need to reboot.
Still, if you ever want vindication of the notion that there is good in human nature, visit a place where people are actively dying.
Thanks for the email, btw, Richard.
Yeah, you’re right technically, but in practice they’re often not honored (I know this because I deal with this specialized area of law every day professionally). While the Supreme Court has set down precedent that a person’s written wishes are to be honored wrt end-of-life care, and while that case law makes such forms valid in any state, the practical reality is that they are routinely ignored. Many states have written ridiculously specific requirements into their statutes when it comes to advance directives—-some specifically disallow a woman to make provisions to save herself at the expense of a fetus, for example. It’s an outrage.
It’s even worse when it comes to after-death funeral decisions. The weight of historical inertia and deference to the next-of-kin devolution has resulted in states either not recognizing a common law power of attorney, or taking the position that absent an explicit, notarized, “my funeral is to be conducted by,” then the deceased’s wishes and those of his proxy dissolve into the ether. Even in states that do recognize such rights they are routinely ignored in practice.
Yes, it’s unconstitutional and unconscionable, but I’m just reporting what actually goes on.
@josh:
*sigh* Yay for legislating one specific form of morality.
Tonight I baby-sat StrangeNiece for the first time while Sis and BIL went for a massage and a date for Valentine’s Day. It was nice.
They brought me chocolate cake from the restaurant.
Chigau:
Fuck you twice over with eight decaying porcupines. Seriously.
Josh:
We’ve decided to rule funerals out altogether, we’re going to go with body donation. At most, the bits not used will be cremated and returned to the survivor. Now we just have to decide which place will get the corpses.
St. Valentine’s Day, eh?
(I’ve not heard calls to put the saint into it, in the manner of Christmas)
I want my skeleton stripped and mounted for display when I die.
Is it possible to do this?
Those who were related to her allowed the likes of Bill Frist, Tom Delay and Jeb and George Bush to grandstand over her brain dead body. And they call called on the stupid and the demented to defend her “life”. One of my favorites was the person who was arrested trying to break into her room, he wanted to give her a drink of water. That would have drowned her.
Sorry, I think “some guy” knew better what she wanted and was vilified for it. (Like you just did right here, pretty damned dismissive there.)
@TLC
I think there are places to donate your body to…not that if you can have your estate keep the display though
Look up the story of Jeremy Bentham. That should answer your question.
Random… Does not Carl Sagan sound similar to Obama? I am watching Cosmos now… and it may just be the pauses he uses..but wow he sounds VERY similar. No real point to this observation….
It occurs to me that a link in a comment that has that word might be seen as being to a site that caters to those who have a prurient interest in that sort of thing.
I think that the system has a scoring system, in addition to a word blacklist. Some words — like the names of certain pharmaceuticals, or the name of a certain French seer, in the case of Pharyngula particularly, will go instantly to moderation. But in other cases, the word raises the score (but not to 100%), and the link pushes the score over whatever limit is set by the system.
Or something like that.
I am reminded of the case of Harry Eastlack, who donated his skeleton — one of the strangest in existence — to science.
Of course it is possible. But is it a good idea?
1) Call a local taxidermist, museum, and/or medical institution (depending on how you want it done).
2) Find out how much it will cost.
3) Arrange with next-of-kin/lawyers to have it carried out.
Pharyngufoodies.
All this talk of jello and aspic has got me into the kitchen, to redress the cosmic balance and appease the gods.
Spelt/white sourdough is bubbling away under the influence of a rather vigorous Phoeniciatje.
Pot of beetroot bubbling away in preparation for making beetroot chutney and for pickled beetroot. (Beetroot has hit the market if anyone asks why.)
The Courts™ decided that the wishes of some guy (“husband”) were more important than the wishes of people who were actually related to her. – chigau
WTF is wrong with you? You think ties by descent that a person has no choice about should be deemed more important than a uniquely close tie that they chose themselves?
Well, The Big Questions had a predictable response to the decision in the high courts to stop prayer being on the agenda of a local council… it’s yet another blatant example of the marginalisation of xians in this xian country of ours. Yeah right. It isn’t as though they don’t say prayers before every session of parliament starts.
Alain de Botton was peddling his latest piece of woo… I think he really, really wants all of us UK atheists to go to church and adhere to xianity’s message of peace love and community, we don’t actually have to believe in the god thing.
The best bit was the member of the clergy who was both black and female arguing in one section that 2000 years of tradition of male only clergy was eminently disposable and then arguing that the traditions of the UK are built upon xianity and they shouldn’t be thrown away to please the secularists. The nice atheist sitting next her (who made the valid point that the high courts were actually upholding the law of the land, not marginalising xians) also made the sensible point that her view would be interesting to the ancient Britons.
I think it’s time the prodisestablishmentarians got busy and removed the whole edifice from public life.
RIP Whitney, 48 is too young to die.
I am saddened whenever anyone dies who has made a positive impact on the world, because they will no longer be able to continue making that positive impact. That may be through philanthropy, creative works of art in any medium, advocacy for better living conditions for others, or serving as a role model for how to be a kind and decent person. There is enough badness in the world that when a force for good is lost, it is a bad thing.
What’s with husband being in scare quotes?
She chose him to become a member of her family, but suddenly he’s just some guy and only the wishes of her family by blood matter. WTH?!
StarStuff:
What did he tell the cops? “Arrest that sarcastic slut”? Being snarky to idiots isn’t yet illegal. I suppose it’s too much to hope that they chewed him out for wasting their time.
Well, FTB 503ed on me when I went to post last night, and then there were Things, so here’s some ketchup:
… the hell? How is that any of their business?
The payback to the nosy tutt-tutter in the Post Office was a thing of glory :D
Classical Cipher:
Nobody knows how to respond. We’re all of us making it up as we go along. I don’t mean to minimize the atypical difficulties you may be facing; just want to let you know that improvising is a thing we all do, and it’s OK.
Wait, what?
Wait, what? How does one go from fighting actual (or at least, perceived) Nazis to Nazism?
Caine (I think):
Wait, WHAT??
That seems the only sensible course of action.
+1
They specifically exempted hating on teh gheys? *BRAINSPLODE*
Do they do tours?
Related, sorta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brisbane
Sir Shplane; D: Glad to hear teh drugz are treating you well.
Arbeit macht frei? ??
Cheeseburger pie sounds delish. Needs moar bacon, pineapple and beetroot.
Oh Chthulhu. Let’s not talk about my grandmother’s complete Super8, 8mm and 16mm film, broadcast quality Beta video & audio editing studio which was disposed of after her death without anyone even mentioning it to me.
Classical Cipher:
\o/
I Blame The Patriarchy?
Josh, would it be of any help for those of us outside Vermont to write to the bill’s sponsor, Bill Frank, to express our opinions?
I gather from this discussion that the motivation here isn’t Protecting The Children™, but money for the state. As is often the case with such legislation.
Kristinc: I strongly suspect, too, that there’s more than a little misogyny at play when it comes to the asschapeaux congratulating the father. If it had been a 15-year-old boy, I don’t think the reaction would have been as powerful, but lots of people love a “put the little bitch in her place” story.
James Michael: Sigh. No, children and teenagers do not have the same cognitive development that adults do, and people’s character can change throughout life.
However, conscience starts to form fairly early, around or just after toddlerhood, if I’m recalling correctly. And, insofar as we can predict the future, the past is the best possible method. If I knew an adult who as a teenager had bullied another teenager to death, I would not want to be friends with that adult unless they had changed profoundly and demonstrated it (e.g., become an anti-bullying activist).
In any case, I don’t think Sandra is worth your time to argue with. She isn’t just misinformed; she’s an asshole and she’s stupid. She believes being “just a child” gives a pass to bullies but not suicide victims. She believes bullying helps kids “toughen up” and that cliques are “important to high school development.” She thinks that kids who commit suicide due to bullying were somehow broken anyway.
In other words, she enables bullying and she’s probably a bully herself.
And she compares equality marriage to polygamy. Next she’ll be comparing it to bestiality. The only value I can see in arguing with her is “for the benefit of lurkers,” but you’re not going to change the mind of this waste of carbon.
TheMatrix: Cheney’s daughter Mary is a lesbian.
WHAT?! Link?
Theophontes: There are a few different UD pages on TAA, depending on whether the “The” is included and on whether there are spaces between the words. His detractors, unfortunately, don’t seem to care about his misogyny; they’re mostly mocking him for being fat and for his banana-related activities.
Giliell:
This is an amazing paragraph.
Beatrice: Go for it.
Shorter Rorschach: The importance of people’s “sensibilities and vulnerabilities” are directly proportional to their tenure on Pharyngula. Therefore, someone like Happiestsadist, who has actually been queer-bashed, just has to suck it up if Walton feels like saying something that comes off as insensitive to HS’s experience. To criticize Walton’s words is to “fuck him over” and to enact “a weird hate trip” against him.
Morales: So, presumably, the next time a TETizen reports that a close relative of theirs has died, you will be challenging them to defend their grief, because more than a hundred thousand people worldwide die every day?
Kristin: I sense this is not a matter of ASD vs. neurotypicality. I do not know anybody with an ASD who would persist in the sort of game John plays, because the people I know with ASDs are not assholes.
Dr. Bunsen: I know that some countries have laws about what one can and cannot name their children. I don’t know if the UK in general or Scotland in particular have such laws. Perhaps the culture is such that the registrar feels entitled to ask such questions. Or perhaps she was just a nosy bigot who had never been bested by a parent nor reined in by her superiors.
The clause was added at the same time as that forbidding incitement to hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation (prior to 2008, the law referred only to inciting hatred on racial or religious grounds), under which the Derby bigots were convicted; the quoted clause obviously did not prevent this prosecution succeeding. The government, which introduced the amendment forbidding incitement to hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation, did not want the quoted clause added; it was probably entirely unnecessary, as incitement to hatred has always been interpreted very narrowly, but was added in the House of Lords, supposedly to preserve freedom of speech.
Josh and Caine:
Mr Darkheart and I have discussed this as well– since apparently it’s illegal to float a dead body on a flaming wooden raft into the middle of the Mohawk river (god damn New York) we’re both going for organ donation, then cremating the rest.
I’ve already got a pretty red urn.
I don’t really give a crap what happens to me after I die, but I don’t want anyone to fight over what happens to my body; it’s just not worth it. The good thing is, my parents know my wishes and are cool with it*, but I’m wondering if I should put something in writing anyway.
*My mom has very similar plans for herself when she dies.
John –
Actually, no. Being consistent is too often an excuse for being hidebound and is a convenient cover for dickish behavior. I prefer trying to be right or at least not harmful. That does not allow the luxury of relying on consistency or complacency.
But them again, you know all of this, care nothing for the exchanges, and were just in your usual, dare I say consistent, pose of aloof ass boutonniere.
Goodbye, John
Of no import other than “whaaa?”
John Hodgman just retweeted Rebecca Watson. WORLDS COLLIDING, PEOPLE.
Hi there
Yay, Sunday afternoon, floor-sweeping time (and you’re wondering what I’m doing on TET..?!)
CC
Hey, didn’t we just all agree that having fun is the important thing? Unless, of course, you’re considering a career in that field (which actually is possible)
What, wait, you’d rather give my alcoholic mother who is clearly unfit to make her own medical decisions more rights than the man I married?
You know, the only person whose legal relationship with me is completly voluntary?
The one person who knows my troubles and woes?
The person who actually knows that I want to be cremated (after the good parts have been used) and burried in the “wood of peace”?
For what, blood-relations?
Would you give the birth-parents who never saw an adopted child greater rights than the adoptive parents who cared for that child all xir life?
I don’t know what’s up with you relationship-wise, but it’s fucked up to dismiss the most intense relationship most people have in their lives because they don’t share genes.
When I was following the Terri Schiavo case at the time nothing made me think that Michael Schiavo knew better than the Schindlers what Terri’s wishes were.
Reading some of the court decisions now still doesn’t make me think Michael knew better.
Reading this one makes me think the conflict between the Schindlers and Schiavo was about the money.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf
Hey janine, thanks for Jello Biafra/DOA before. I’d never heard of his work with that particular group before :)
Here, have his Pledge of Allegiance, everyone (NSFW language)
I am totally threadrupt. I skimmed through (John, really?) and will basically keep up from where I now stand. Er, sit. Type? Anyway, all of this Jell-o talk (er, writing) has brought up a really strange memory from my childhood. Well, actually, my teenagerhood.
One of my good friends (hell, he was my best friend) was a universal deist (again, in high school, I know we didn’t know term, but he viewed the universe as God) who was also a member of a severely fundamentalist Christian church. During our friendship, I managed to avoid his various attempts at getting me into his church. Actually, it was his mother who tried to get me in there.
He and I went skiing up at Ski Liberty in Pennsylvania (crappy little ski area, but it was the closest one) on a Saturday. We got back late, so I just sacked out on his couch. The next morning, his mom made a big breakfast (home-cured country ham, eggs, home fries, scrapple, toasted home-made bread, home-canned cherry preserves, raw milk, home-made sausage, and fried hominy (and that was for five people)) and then announced that I would attend church with them.
I demurred, insisting that I needed to get home. She insisted. I tried to get out of it. She insisted. I said no. She said yes. I went. She found a shirt which fit (pink striped), a necktie (wide and striped (1970s tacky)), and insisted. I resisted. Futilely.
The church was a cute little wooden building in a grove of sycamore trees. And attached to the cute little church was a large cinder block monstrosity complete with a corrugated aluminum roof. The effect created by this juxtaposition was architectural chaos (the Church in the Wildwood mated with industrial crappy).
Inside the cute little wooden church were rows of burnt orange plastic chairs (the stackable ones you find at bowling alley lounges). The podium was cheap veneer with a giant silver plastic cross. Behind the podium, on the wall, hung another cross. This one done in gold-toned plastic.
I sat with my friend and his family about 1/3 of the way back. I quickly noticed that I was a topic of conversation. Nothing obvious, but everyone who came into the church looked my way, quickly looked away, and began talking amongst themselves while stealing furtive glances my way. It was obvious.
A few minutes before the service started, a cute little girl (age, about 5), in a miniature brides-maid outfit with way too much taffeta for a dress that size, came through and handed out Bibles to everyone there. I opened it and confronted, for the first time in my life, the tortured beauty of the King James Version Bible. Under the Bible was a stack of papers with the words for today’s songs. Well, I thought, at least there will be music so it won’t be that bad, right?
Wrong. The music was bad (and keep in mind that, at the time, my girlfriend was a twice-born and had taken me to Petra and Stryper concerts). Big time bad. The organist (and it was not and organ, but a Casio keyboard set to ‘organ’) was almost competent. The choir (seven women and one man, all in their 90s (or older)) managed to be 1/4 step out of tune (both directions) the entire time, while still missing the beat by just enough to be annoying.
The sermon, however, was worth the trip. The sermon of the day was a discussion of sexual sin. He (the pastor) never actually said what, exactly, the sins were (other than being sexual in nature), but he breathlessly described the punishments. Eternity in a boiling lake of blood, eternal heat, eternal thirst (I suspect he had been exposed to Dante’s Inferno at some point). For eternity. For all of eternity.
I watched (without being too obvious about it) the reactions of the flock. Some sat, slack-jawed, following his every move about the foot-high stage. Some were breathing hard. Some had a look of joy on their face. One older woman (she was about 40 (which is, of course, no longer old to me)) actually began panting and, as the sermon reached a climax, she suddenly thrust her clasped hands into her lap, held them there, and shuddered. In retrospect, I think she had an orgasm.
After a few more songs (still bad), a couple of prayers (including one asking for the death of Tip O’Neil (my first experience with imprecatory prayer)), a collection (I tossed in a dollar (which was a lot of money for an eighteen-year-old)) and a prayer for someone’s grandmother. Then, out to the Church Community Center for some food and drink.
The drink was weak iced tea made from powder, with pieces of mint (dried and re-hydrated in the tea) floating in amongst the ice cubes. The food was saltines, cheeze whiz (no, I am not kidding), a Jell-o and marshmallow salad, a Jell-o and fruit salad, and a Jell-o and fruit salad with nuts. I had a couple of crackers. No Jell-o. No cheeze whiz. No iced tea. Just crackers.
Which actually summed up my reaction to the entire church experience in my friend’s congregation. On the way home, his mom positively gushed over the music, the organist, the sermon. I kept a straight face. Crackers.
Anyway, thank you so very much for bringing this particular piece of my youth to the top of my mind where it will reside until something even worse displaces it.
Ogvorbis: This is me reading your tale:
D:
Literally. Well done.
After the breakfast that is: that part was awesome.
Sorry, Oggie.
:(
And if you want a really good laugh, check out this possible moron: http://peace-de-resistance.blogspot.com/ . I have no idea if this is a Poe, or if this is an actual example of how hir mind works.
Well, Sandra got back to me. She at least stuck to discussing only gay marriage, but unfortunately she didn’t actually do any real quoting of parts of the email I sent back to her. So I’ll try and break it up into easier to read portions for you guys’ benefit. Once again, help would much appreciated on this :) :
So first she back peddles and says that the inequality promoted by Prop 8 is comparatively less so than other states, while still claiming marriage isn’t different to civil unions:
drbunsen:
I always enjoyed breakfast at his house.
Dr. Audley:
No need to apologize. I didn’t realize Jell-o would trigger me.
Aargh, I screwed up on the HTML on the last one. Let me try again.
Well, Sandra got back to me. She at least stuck to discussing only gay marriage, but unfortunately she didn’t actually do any real quoting of parts of the email I sent back to her. So I’ll try and break it up into easier to read portions for you guys’ benefit. Once again, help would much appreciated on this :) :
So first she back peddles and says that the inequality promoted by Prop 8 is comparatively less so than other states, while still claiming marriage isn’t different to civil unions:
She then elaborates with how she thinks getting gay marriage legal across the entire US would be possible with an example:
She then goes after me for pointing out “Separate but Equal”:
Finally, she makes a defense of what I rightfully called her out on, for being a bigot, while also claiming to know transgendered people, and also defends the “polygamy being similar to gay marriage” stance she took before:
On that last one, I’m not actually against polygamy provided that a) it’s between consenting adults, b) women have equal rights to marry however many people they want as men, and c) they sort out a good system for sorting out exactly what tax breaks people involved in polygamous marriages are entitled to and that the participants doing it aren’t just trying to keep avoiding taxes.
But yeah, as much help as possible would be greatly appreciated in tackling this. :)
Also, while Sandra didn’t send me a full response to the “bullying” issue, she did send me this, promising that she’d do a full response in time.
Help would be appreciated here too :)
Much thanks,
James
Andrew Breitbart completely loses his shit.
Mind-Blowing Charts From the Senate’s Income Inequality Hearing
1) That is entriely different to the grounds you were giving before, which bizarrely characterised Schiavos’s husband as “some guy”.
2) I’ve read the document you linked to; the court clearly came to the decision, based not only on the husband’s testimony but that of the brother and sister-in-law, that he did.
3) The parties had argued about money. On what grounds do you deduce that the husband was more motivated by monetary considerations than the parents? The court did not attempt, and did not have to attempt, to determine this.
Oggie:
*hugs* to you, anyway.
I feel bad about making your morning crappy.
Trigger warnings for these stories:
200 priests suspected of abuse living in California, according to a lawyer for victims.
A British website for “university lads” is shut down in the wake of rape jokes.
CNN gives Kenneth Hutcherson a platform to tell its readers that gawd “will kill” GLBT people who do not “repent.”
A Minnesota prosecutor is railroading a poor trans woman of color who stood up to a bunch of homophobic, transphobic white supremacists in a fight that led to the death of one of them.
A comment from a FireDogLake diary:
That last one might sound like tinfoil, but consider the case of John Paul I.
Chigau, I can only speak for myself and not for Terri.
Discussing the Terri Schiavo case with my parents was one of the factors making me realize how important it was for me to get legally married, rather than simply continue living together (and I am very aware that my straight privilege even made that an option). My husband knows far, far better than my parents what my wishes would be, and I absolutely would not want my body to be kept alive once “I” was gone.
Dr. Bunsen: Ah, CPAC, where they’re not even bothering with dogwhistles anymore.
Actually, it is not basically the same issue. Currently marriage brings with it certain benefits, not least of which are widow/widower pensions. Allowing same sex couple does not make any difference to such provision, except extending those who stand to benefit.
However it is not the same with multiple partners. Which of the surviving spouses would get the pension, or should both get it ? But if both get it, do they each get the rate a single surviving spouse would get, or should it be split between them ? If they both get the full rate, who pays for it ? Pensions are often a combination of employee, employer and government contributions. Which of those should pay the extra ?
It is not only pensions of course.
So, sorry, it is not the same issue at all. It would require substanial alteration to existing laws, whereas same sex marriage only requires the law to allow them, with a clause that says same sex marriage should be treated as identical to existing marriage in law.
chigau:
OK, but surely you do understand how different arguing that one particular husband might not have his wife’s true interests at heart is from arguing that “husbands” (or spouses) in general don’t deserve the same rights as blood relatives, which is what you clearly appeared to be doing in your original comment.
Given all the people here who have told horror stories about their own parents, together with all of us who are hoping and fighting for marriage equality, you can’t be surprised that “‘husbands’ don’t count as much as real family members… like parents” got a… shall we say, less than friendly reception?
Also, whingeing about “The Courts™” is a hardcore right-wing trope that’s similarly unlikely to be well received here. In this case, the real problem was asshat right-wing politicians and commentators who chose to turn a family tragedy into an ideological platform.
James: sooo… Tradition + Survivor bias = yay for bullying?
o_O
Shorter Rorschach: The importance of people’s “sensibilities and vulnerabilities” are directly proportional to their tenure on Pharyngula. Someone such as Happiestsadist who has experienced anti-GLBT violence should just suck it up if an old-timer makes a comment that sounds insensitive to such experience.
Josh, would it be of any help for those of us outside Vermont to write to the bill’s sponsor to express our opinions?
I gather from this discussion that the motivation here isn’t Protecting The Children™, but money for the state. As is often the case with such legislation.
Kristinc, regarding the laptop-shooting story: I strongly suspect, too, that there’s more than a little misogyny at play when it comes to the asschapeaux congratulating the father. If it had been a 15-year-old boy, I don’t think the reaction would have been as powerful, but lots of people love a “put the little bitch in her place” story.
Regarding Morales, I sense this is not a matter of ASD vs. neurotypicality. I do not know anybody with an ASD who would persist in the sort of game John plays, because the people I know with ASDs are not assholes.
James Michael, unless convincing the lurkers in that forum is really important, I wouldn’t even waste my time on Sandra. She’s thicker than a fucking plank, and she’s a bully-enabling asshole to boot.
TheMatrix: Cheney’s daughter Mary is lesbian.
WHAT?! Link?
Theophontes: There are a few different UD pages on The Amazing Atheist, depending on whether the word “The” is included in the entry title and on whether there are spaces between the words. His detractors, unfortunately, don’t seem to care about his misogyny; they’re mostly mocking him for being fat and for his banana-related activities, neither of which is any of their business.
Giliell:
A concise gem of moral clarity.
Beatrice: Go for it.
Dr. Bunsen: I know that some countries have laws about what one can and cannot name their children. I don’t know if the UK in general or Scotland in particular have such laws. Perhaps the culture is such that the registrar feels entitled to ask such questions. Or perhaps she was just a nosy bigot who had never been bested by a parent nor reined in by her superiors.
me
KG
Me neither.
I’m having trouble posting.
I’ll continue reading
This healing is going really fast. I must assume it is due to atheist well-wishes being magic. Thank you for your Godless Wizardry, Pharyngulariat.
NEW THREAD!