Comments

  3. Sioux Laris says

    This “creationists are trailer trash/hillbillies” take on creationists kind of bugs me: such people are ignorant for the best of reasons (they had no other source of information while immersed in a repressive social setting). I’d give them a chance – of anything other than violence – to at least get a smattering of why their folk beliefs don’t hold water any longer.

    The people I despise are the ones who INSIST on their ignorance, like Sarah “Utterly Insincere, Cynical and Greedy” Palin. They demand not simply the right to be an idiot (It IS a free country, after all – until they come into power.) but that idiocy be made the standard by which ideas are judged: their lies/prejudices musst be given privilege over any facts, and allowed exemption from any consequences.
    These sorts of creationists are the ones to oppose and ridicule. They qualify as “evil” in whatever sense that loaded term has meaning.

  4. Alverant says

    I’m with Sioux Laris, I don’t think the “creationists are trailer trash/hillbillies” stereotype does much help to our cause. For one it’s an insult to trailer trash/hillbillies. Second, the real threat to science aren’t the brain stem yokles, it’s the brain stem fundies in power.

  5. Kathy Orlinsky says

    I’ve laughed at plenty of Palin comments, but the maddest I’ve ever gotten is when she said the country might be tired of elitists who haven’t worked hard.

    Not work hard?!?!

    My fellow students and I didn’t work hard in grad school, putting in 12+ hour days? My advisor didn’t work hard putting in 14+ hour days to get tenure? Doctors don’t work hard at their residencies? Lawyers don’t work hard at their internships?

    So, it’s not only that she’s ignorant, but she has no idea that it’s possible to not be ignorant. She clearly thinks we ‘elitists’ have no better way to know anything than she does. It’s not like we worked hard to gain that information!

  6. Ol'Greg says

    Sioux Laris, thanks for that. As pwt that went to college, works in IT (not glamorous but not exactly the creation museum), and doesn’t believe with all her heart in mythologies, I have to say that you know what you experience. The only reason I am where I am is pretty much that my mother and father had big ambiguous dreams of better things and were more of the drugs and good times type than the churchgoing sort. For that reason in a community I’m the sort of kid that is supposed to find religion and renounce the “atheism” of my parents, which isn’t so much atheism as failure to comply with societal norms.

    I guess what I’m saying is there’s a lot more going on socially, and stereotypes don’t help that.

  7. tractrix says

    If only all creationists were hicks! I live in Virginia and I’m surrounded by creationists. They’re college educated, professional, and financially comfortable (or even wealthy). They have no idea they’re rednecks.

    Finding a preschool for my child was impossible. Almost all preschools are in evangelical churches, and trust me, every other car in the parking lot is a Lexus or an Acura. My rusty little hubcap-free Subaru made me look like the hick.

  8. raven says

    If only all creationists were hicks!

    That stereotype is only partially true.

    Not all creos are hicks.

    But partially true it is. Fundie xian cultists on average score lower in socioeconomic status and higher on social problems such as abortion, divorce, drugs and alcohol, and so on.

    I wouldn’t let the big pickups and nice houses fool you. Many of these people are in debt up to their eyeballs and a paycheck away from bankruptcy. A lot of them bought into the Bush, charge it, remortgage your house every time the value goes up, and spend, spend, spend. Being gullible about things like the age of the earth or how many dinosaurs Noah had has a habit of spreading into other parts of their lives.

  10. tractrix says

    Well, they have professional jobs (dentist, accountant, lawyer), so they likely do have decent incomes.

    I think you misunderstood my comment. When I said “If only all creationists were hicks!” I was saying, “I know hicks are creationists, but I wish all the suburban professionals I deal with every day weren’t also creationists.”

  11. Zeno says

    Good luck to little Aristarchus, who seems to be smart enough to want to get away (even if his only option is hitchhiking).

    I wonder if that’s how Bruce got away to Oxford.

  12. llewelly says

    tractix brings up a good point – there are plenty of creationists who are not “hicks”, even if they do not make up the majority of creationists.
    And we all know Jonathan Wells and Kurt Wise went to good schools.

  13. IanW says

    Wonderful. I wish I could send this to my parents and family, but they don’t know how to use the interwebs. Not much can be done about that, I suspect.

  14. tsg says

    Not work hard?!?!

    My fellow students and I didn’t work hard in grad school, putting in 12+ hour days? My advisor didn’t work hard putting in 14+ hour days to get tenure? Doctors don’t work hard at their residencies? Lawyers don’t work hard at their internships?

    There’s a common misconception that using your brain isn’t work, usually held by those who have never actually done it.

  15. tractrix says

    The video also make the assumption that the gay son at Oxford will reject his family’s absurd religious beliefs. From my experience, he’s just as likely to be evangelical as the rest of his kin, even if they do reject him.

  17. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    It’s not quite as heavy handed as you might think. The cartoon was showing a 22nd Century couple and offspring. If the creationists have their way, science will be outlawed, book larnin’ will be anti-social, and a person will be considered educated if they can slowly and painfully read the Bible. The standard of living in the 22nd Century will be similar to that of the 12th Century.

  18. Ol'Greg says

    Not work hard?!?!

    It seems to me that this concept has less to do with people really thinking the work is easy as people thinking the route to the work is something you’re born into. They face problems even getting to school, and when they do school is hard. It’s easy then to see that as a intentional opposition, a block, to keep “people like us” out while letting other people in to do work that they don’t understand because they perceived themselves as being the wrong class for it… etc.

    I heard this recently from a guy who’s going to go to Liberty to get his PhD. “I just think it’ll be funny when all them college snobs have to call me doctor.”

    Well if that was your motivation… but realistically it’s hard. They know it’s hard but they don’t see the actual work as hard, only the means to getting it and therefore cashing in.

    The sad reality, as far as I can tell, is unless you were born with a few billion to your name it’s hard no matter what you do :/

    Hell, that’s probably hard in its own way I guess.

  19. Pastor Farm says

    Wow, I was going to come on and complain about the stereotype that they’re hicks and that I know far too many successful creationists, but I got beat to the punch.

    Seriously, that made me feel like a loser since there are so many (at my work alone) above me in socioeconomic status.

    As much as I’d like it, I can’t feel even the slightest bit superior despite being more enlightened, since I’m too lazy to actually bother climbing that ladder.

  20. charley says

    This is like the Answers in Genesis cartoons that depict atheists as angry, snooty or overbearing. It’s kind of funny, but appeals to stereotypes and probably does more harm than good.

  21. RamblinDude says

    I watched it again and it made me laugh. It’s so over-the-top and stupid that it reminds me of creationists’ videos, but it’s the “Librul elites” fighting back. Go, go, science!

  22. Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom says

    Yeah, it’s important to remember that as much as atheism can retard scientific understanding, you don’t NEED that understanding just to get through college.

    How hard can it be to remember? The guy who runs Conservapedia is a lawyer (Why couldn’t it be an engineer?)

  23. Feynmaniac says

    The guy who runs Conservapedia is a lawyer (Why couldn’t it be an engineer?)

    If you are talking about Andy Schlafly he does have a B.S.E. in Electrical Engineering from Princeton University in addition to a law degree from Harvard Law School(Source). How the fuck that nut (see here for list of crazy statements he has made) was able to was able to get either degree, let alone both, I’m not sure. My guess is his mind was semi-functional in the past, but he has since lost it.

  24. skillcoyne says

    I was hoping to see the future of the world if creationists had their way compared to the 22nd century future they started with.

    As others here have said, the stereotypes aren’t funny and ultimately hurt us. There are in fact atheist hicks, and far too many white collar creationists.

  25. Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom says

    ffff-
    Creationism in my last comment, not atheism. Atheism is the default rational position, not the one that screws with scientific understanding.

  26. https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkD9oPuO_ZXJ3kp7Woq8jiLZTGNrn19t9w says

    Ah well.. We are doomed anyway. See, if the Tea Baggers don’t manage to change the mind of the President in February of next year, according their press release, they plan to time travel back to 2009 and do it again. lol

    Or, as was commented, “So… to undo all the ‘socialist’ stuff you don’t like, you are going to do all the stuff that liberals have tried, and failed at, like marching on Washington?” Guess it makes about as much sense as anything else they try/think.

  27. Rorschach says

    . Atheism is the default rational position, not the one that screws with scientific understanding.

    Plenty of irrational atheists around.Or atheists that hold irrational or unscientific views in other fields.

    Sadly, not believing in gods doesnt automatically make you a rationalist.

  29. eddie says

    Unfortunately, merkin culture seems to actively discriminate against free thinkers in general. No surprise that church going rednecks in suits seem to be doing so well. merit has nothing to do with it.

  30. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    I’d like to be a pill, but I agree with everyone else. Stupidity transcends class, race, education, and any other demographic barrier you can imagine.

  31. John Frum says

    Came to complain about the stereotype but you guys have got it covered. Keep up the good work.

  32. Hieronymus The Troll Braintree says

    1) I really wanted to like the cartoon.
    2) It was effing boring.
    3) There wasn’t one joke there that wasn’t 100% obvious and, therefore, a grinding dud.
    4) Haha. Myers keeps making the same squid joke over and over and over again. It never gets tired no matter how often he tells it. You must pretend to think that if you want him to like you.
    5) Zzzzz.

  33. amphiox says

    re: #27

    Nevertheless, atheism (the intellectual position itself as opposed to the people who hold it) IS the default rational position. Not believing in gods IS the rational position on this specific subject.

    In the absence of evidence, disbelief is always the rational null hypothesis.

    An individual atheist may or may not be rational in respect to any other given position or belief they hold, but the position that defines them as atheists – their non-belief in gods – IS rational. This holds true even if the reason they hold this position is not rational. The position itself is still the rational one.

  35. vanharris says

    Feynmaniac #23, there’s a guy in the UK, Andy McIntosh, BSc, PhD, DSc, FIMA, CMath, FInstE, CEng, FInstP, MIGEM, FRAeS. Professor of Thermodynamics and Combustion Theory – Faculty of Engineering – University of Leeds, who’s a complete nutjob.

    Andy McIntosh is probably the best known of the creationists in British academia. He is a Professor of Thermodynamics (basically chemical engineering) at the University of Leeds. McIntosh is also an uncompromising young earth creationist (YEC) whose work appears on the website of the YEC organisation Answers in Genesis (US) at http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/origin-of-attack-defense-structures

  36. vanharris says

    I quote from Nutjob Andy McIntosh’s take on theodicy:

    The biblical response to DAS (Defence/Attack Structures) is that the theology of Darwin and Attenborough has made a major assumption—the world is now what it always has been. The Bible, as early as Genesis 3, makes it clear that this is not the case.
    The world (and indeed the universe) was originally perfect. Six times in Genesis 1 it states that what God had made was “good” and the seventh time that “God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good” (Genesis 1:31). A perfect God would make nothing less. In fact, Moses, who also penned Genesis, declared in Deuteronomy 32:4 that all of God’s works are perfect.The original creation was perfect, but we can see by looking at the world around us that there has been a drastic change. The change was a result of the Fall of man—an event which fundamentally altered the world.
    The original world had no parasites boring into children’s eyes or any other part of nature being “red in tooth and claw.” The death and suffering in the past and in the present is a result of man’s sin and rebellion against God. When the first man Adam disobeyed his Creator, all of creation was cursed, bringing disease, sickness, pain, suffering, and death into the world.

    I’m perplexed that a brilliant mind can also be so profoundly screwed up.

  37. Knockgoats says

    @vanharris’s quote:

    Erm, Andy old chap, if the universe was perfect, how did such an unfortunate event as the Fall come to pass?

  38. hyoid says

    I think that the credulous mind is “trying” to evolve away, but we, tending toward fewer births due to our acceptance of birth control methods, aren’t passing on our “incredulous” genes on out into the pool at a sufficient rate. (Unintended consequence) I could be mistaken, but it would explain current car styles, certain types of musick (sic), increased warmongering, and other things like these.

  39. Kevin says

    Eh.. could have been better.

    Also, people really should step back and think before poking fun at homeschooling. I was homeschooled in high school and it was honestly the best thing my mother could ever have done for me.

    I was well above the grade level of the average student. In 1st and 2nd grade, my teachers would give me 3rd and 4th grade material to do – though they weren’t allowed to skip me ahead until 4th grade. Unfortunately, we moved to a school district that refused to skip me ahead because it would hurt the self-esteem of the other kids in my class (yes, honestly.)

    In 7th grade we moved again to a school where I was tortured. I mean, boys will be boys, and you’ll always deal with bullies, but those kids had no filter of how much was too much. I developed back trouble because of that school year – I was slammed into lockers and shaken off the gym ropes, thrown to the concrete outside of the school, knocked off park equipment. Plus I was still completely above the level of other students, and should have been skipped ahead to the high school in the area.

    So my mother home-(and later un-)schooled me and my sister (who was taken out for entirely different reasons.) It was honestly the best thing she’s ever done for me. I could take courses to the levels I felt like taking, I was doing college-level essays in tenth grade, and most importantly, I didn’t have to worry about being tortured.

    Course, that following summer I had a growth spurt that took me up to about 5’8 and I was taller than the bullies who teased me.

  40. aratina cage says

    Are you sure the joke isn’t on us? Building a dark matter-powered, self-programming, terraforming robot might just be the end of us all.

    Yeah, I agree with tractrix. It’s the Rick Warrens and the Rupert Murdochs in their Lexus mobiles with their H8 platforms and media empires that are the problem. Poor people are not ignorant and credulous solely by choice but also because post-secondary education is a luxury in the USA. Like Harvey Milk said, “You gotta give em hope”, and multimillionaires are particularly good at giving people false hope (in exchange for cash).

    And in another bit of agreeance with tractrix, gaytheists (gay atheists) are few and far between; even college educated gays fall for belief in the supernatural and faith in the cracker-dwelling Christian god in stupefying numbers.

  45. Sastra says

    I think the point of the hillbilly stereotype can be found in the moral at the very end: “Remember, it doesn’t matter what you believe … as long as you believe it with all your heart.”

    That isn’t satire aimed at fundamentalists: it’s aimed at a certain type of “liberal” — those who think fundamentalists and atheists are equally wrong — two sides of the same coin — because both groups try to argue their case. From the standpoint of someone promoting the live-and-let-live line, this is rude and intolerant. Instead, people ought to be allowed to believe whatever they want with no criticism — as long as their beliefs are heartfelt, and provide meaning to their lives.

    It’s a response to the argument that atheists shouldn’t be on the attack. Religion is basically personal therapy and art, and there are no dangerous social consequences to religious belief, as long as everyone just leaves everyone else alone. Relax: people will eventually come together, because they’re all following their hearts. It’s just a matter of time.

    I think the cartoon was responding to this attitude with an “oh, yeah” type scenario of the future. How bad can it get? How strong can the disconnect be? How resistant to change is fundamentalism? Sincerity is no guarantee of gradual progression to harmony.

  46. raven says

    I’m perplexed that a brilliant mind can also be so profoundly screwed up.

    Andy Macintosh might simply be fruitbat crazy.

    Scientists are as prone to mental illness as everyone else. Or more so. The mental hospitals and detox centers have their share of scientists.

    One of my professors had problems to begin with that morphed into amazingly serious heavy drinking. The university made him take a year off and detox because he had tenure and they couldn’t fire him.

    One shot himself. Another disappeared in mid-term and sent a postcard. He had joined a Buddhist cult in Asia and wanted a leave a absence.

    An MD was recently arrested for some reason in possession of many homemade pipe bombs.

    One person was…. well, you get the picture. This list could go on for pages. There are a lot of strange people in science.

  47. raven says

    Andy McIntosh babbling like an idiot:

    The biblical response to DAS (Defence/Attack Structures) is that the theology of Darwin and Attenborough has made a major assumption—the world is now what it always has been. The Bible, as early as Genesis 3, etc. etc..

    This god babble is the equivalent to some of the monologues of the guys down at the park pushing shopping carts around while clutching bottle shaped brown paper bags.

    It is boring. It is crazy. Who cares what a few pages of ancient mythology says? What relevance does it have for 21st century humans?

    If these clowns weren’t trying to take over our country and destroy it, no one would give a rat’s ass what they are gibbering on about. They would be lumped in with other lunatic fringers like the UFO, Bigfoot, elves, Birthers, Elvists, and ghost cults.

  48. wodenforce says

    I wouldn’t want to live in either imagined future.

    Did anyone notice how science and progress were lumped together? Like if only the politicians would listen to the scientists, then we could progress blissfully into our Utopian future. Or better, scientists should rule the world. Now THAT is funny and scary as hell.

  49. Glen Davidson says

    Oh, I like it. It’s not supposed to be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    But for criticism, obviously a real problem is that many of the anti-scientists believe in science until it bother Jebus, or anyway, his charlatans. Thus they can be engineers, physicists, chemists, maybe even biochemists, all the while spouting the most ignorant tripe regarding biology.

    So yeah, they’ll use science and technology emanating from science to attack the theory that happens to integrate biology with the other sciences. Which doesn’t change the fact that many young fundamentalists are indeed short-changed by their religion and learn little science, since Jebus is everything, meaning that even “proper science” pales in significance.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  50. raven says

    Did anyone notice how science and progress were lumped together?

    Good reason for that. They are.

    As you have failed to notice, the 21st century is much different from the Dark Ages. We drive cars, not donkeys. We use computers, not paper and pens. We go to doctors, not priests when we are sick. We live 30 years longer than even a century ago.

    If 21st century civilization is not to your liking, it is a free country. Drop out, grab your spear and head into the outback for a rewarding career as a hunter gatherer. Some people actually try this. They frequently last a few months and end up dead.

  51. sandiseattle says

    Watched it. Underwhelmed. Typical antireligion stuff. Only funny thing is the Jesus Tech sign, like that little mistake. It was a small chuckle.

  52. gothicgyrl says

    What’s sadder still is that there really is a book called “Homeschooling for Dummies”.
    http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Dummies-Jennifer-Kaufeld/dp/0764508881/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262194425&sr=8-1

    It isn’t like I couldn’t see the typical knock on homeschooling coming, but like every one else, even without that, this was trite, contrived, and just plain FAIL; for both sides even.

    And, in other news–I thought the plural of matrix was matrices? Wouldn’t it behoove them to properly pronounce what they are knocking on? Kind of like the grammar nazi correcting someone’s grammar, yet misspelling every other word themselves.

    ~~Toni

  53. Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom says

    “Like if only the politicians would listen to the scientists, then we could progress blissfully into our Utopian future. Or better, scientists should rule the world.”

    What? Whatever gave you that idea? The only thing that is stated or implied is that big advances happened. There’s no implication of a scientific oligarchy, only that technology continues advancing. You’re aware that happens, right?

    @41: The evidence is that Idiocracy was wrong.

  54. RamblinDude says

    Did anyone notice how science and progress were lumped together?

    How can they not be lumped together? Once we developed the technology to overrun the earth, we became dependent on technology. We now need it to keep from dying like yeast in a vat, drowned in our own waste. We need it to keep ourselves alive in our overcrowded condition — for disease control, food resources, power harnessing. Even if we don’t use it to escape the bounds of Earth, or create a race of robot slaves, we still need it and are dependent upon it to progress into the future—whatever your definition of that word.

  55. Anri says

    Speaking strictly for myself, and at the risk of sounding like a Tone Troll, I found the video disturbingly bigoted. it felt as though a great deal of the second half was, essentially, “Get smarter, or you might end up driving a PICKUP TRUCK and drinking BEER! ZOMG! You might even end up marrying a woman who WEARS CURLERS and knows how to BUTCHER A CHICKEN!! GADS! SWOON!”

    To put it another way, let’s change the race of the family in question – show a nice, well-dressed black family, planning on their son’s college future, then (record screech sound effect!) OH NO, they are doomed, doomed, I tell you, to scenes of poor black urban life due to lack of education. All those tacky low rider cars, drinking Night Train and Thunderbird out of the bottle, ratty apartment living, etc, etc, with a heavy rap beat playing in the background. All things that we good, clean people are supposed to find horrifying simply upon exposure.

    I imagine I’d find such a video very insulting and offensive.

    Most folks I’ve met who actually do live in trailers (including some of my relations) are reasonably fine people. Perpetuating the stereotype makes the animators look like terrible snobs.
    There are plenty of legitimate targets to be hit with visuals like this (grindingly poor people working a second job to pay for the Pope’s Pradas, for ecample). IMHO, they’d be a better choice.

    (Rant over)

  56. wodenforce says

    Raven

    I like living in my country in the 21st century. I consider myself lucky. However, to say it is better than any time in the past is ridiculous. If I were one of the 1 billion folks living now without proper nourishment, clean water etc, I doubt I would think it is so damn great.

    Life was pretty good for the few Romans, Greeks etc that made up the upper echelons in society. But as now, I doubt life was anything but misery for the majority of people. Until a few years ago, !Kung people lived pretty well without any of our science and technology. Look at them now.

    Does anyone really believe that by eliminating religion that somehow that would allow the flowering of a new human nature or culture? That we could live happily forever after?

  57. John Marley says

    I love how little Aristarchus seemed to be hitchhiking the hell out of there.

    (Maybe to join his more reasonable brother)

  58. John Marley says

    There’s a common misconception that using your brain isn’t work, usually held by those who have never actually done it.

    In “Time Enough for Love” by Robert Heinlein, Lazarus Long tells a story about a man who was “too lazy to fail” that lampoons that misconception.

  59. realinterrobang says

    Does anyone really believe that by eliminating religion that somehow that would allow the flowering of a new human nature or culture?

    Straw man, and false dichotomy all at once. Nobody said any such thing. However, do you or do you not agree that religion as it is constituted right now is a significant contributor to the amount of human misery in the world? If you don’t agree, I first of all don’t know what rock you’ve been living under, but it’s a big one, and I secondly think you don’t belong on this blog.

    It’s entirely possible that if we eliminated religion, new forms of authoritarian social control that serve the same function would spring up almost overnight, but considering that religion took thousands of years to accrete into its current form, I suspect that possibility is highly unlikely.

  60. raven says

    wodenhouse being stupid some more:

    I like living in my country in the 21st century. I consider myself lucky. However, to say it is better than any time in the past is ridiculous.

    Oh really? I suppose you think the pre civil war era was great. Average life span was around 40 years and a good chunch of the population were slaves. How about the 1900’s. Average life span was 47, no cars to speak of, no computers. The 1950’s. Most of the population, women, minorities were second class citizens.

    I admit some nostalgia for the 60’s and 70’s. I was just a kid then but the parties were great. Anyone who can remember the 60’s wasn’t really there. That Vietnam war thing and Nixon weren’t too cool though.

    The 21st century would have been a lot better with Clinton. Bush and the fundie religious kooks did some major damage.

    Does anyone really believe that by eliminating religion that somehow that would allow the flowering of a new human nature or culture? That we could live happily forever after?

    The fundie religious kooks are all Xian Dominionists who hate and fear modern science and the USA. Their stated goal is to destroy it and head on back to the Dark Ages.

    They hold our society back. Exactly like the Moslems hold their societies back. They are just being dragged along for the ride.

    Knocking down toxic religion would help a lot. It is no panacea but you take what you can get. People know this. Between 1-2 million people leave xianity every year. They vote with their feet for their own personal survival and that of their country. I was one of them. US xianity has been captured by malevolent kooks and it is shaking itself to pieces. No one sane will miss it.

  61. Gyeong Hwa Pak, the Pikachu of Anthropology says

    a good chunch

    Lol. Now raven, the voiceless velar fricative is not a suitable replacement for the voiceless velar plosive. lol

  62. wodenforce says

    Raven,

    You seem to think there are only two historic eras: Dark ages, and pre- 1950’s America. Jesus H Christ, who is being Stupid!?

    “The fundie religious kooks are all Xian Dominionists who hate and fear modern science and the USA” Do you really believe this? If you do, you are extremely naive. You seem to have an extreme kind of personality.

    realinterrobang,

    Of course I believe religion is a significant contributor to human misery, but how can you separates religion from language, race, ethnicity, nationality? You can say race contributes to human misery, or language, or nations. It becomes meaningless.

    Forget fighting religion. It is a lost cause and counter productive. Eliminate economic disparity and insecurity and you will go along way to eliminating religion. Don’t demonize people for what to them is part of being human.

  63. raven says

    wodenhouse being very stupid:

    raven: “The fundie religious kooks are all Xian Dominionists who hate and fear modern science and the USA”

    Wodenhouse: Do you really believe this? If you do, you are extremely naive. You seem to have an extreme kind of personality.

    Wodenhouse, have you been asleep for the last century. No I don’t “believe” that the fundie Death Cultists are all malevolent Xian Dominionists.

    It is just a simple fact. A well known one. The DI is funded by a nasty group of Xian Dominionists. The father of Xian Dominionism was a psychopathic theologian, Rushdoony who proposed killing 99% of the US population and starting over. He was also Pat Robertson’s mentor.

    The fundies really want to take over and destroy the USA. They say so often. It’s no secret. They hate and fear science. That is no secret either. We scientists get death threats constantly. I’ve been getting them for at least a decade. PZ Myers can get 100/day. They occasionally beat up and murder science supporters and MDs.

    For the fundies, “who would jesus kill” is not a rhetorical question.

    Talking about extreme personalities, you are a delusional moron who ignores any and all facts.

    Forget fighting religion. It is a lost cause and counter productive. Eliminate economic disparity and insecurity and you will go along way to eliminating religion. Don’t demonize people for what to them is part of being human.

    I can see you can read as well as you think. Polls show 1-2 million people leaving US xianity every year, dropping by 0.5-0.9%/year. Down to 76% of the population and projected to drop below 50% in a few decades. These are facts, google the ARIS survey. We don’t have to fight religion. It is destroying itself. When xian became synonymous with liar, moron, crazy, and sometimes killer, a lot of people didn’t want to be one.

  64. raven says

    How to identify fundie xian cultists. It is easy. They lie constantly. They are very, very good at hating. Dumb. They and their leaders frequently publish lists of groups they want to kill. They occasionally kill them.

    Pat Robertson: wikipedia
    Hugo Chávez“ I don’t know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we’re trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It’s a whole lot cheaper than starting a war, and I don’t think any oil shipments will stop.

    We will find you, we will try you, and we will execute you. I mean every word of it.
    [Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, at the Aug 8, 1995 U.S. Taxpayers Alliance Banquet in Washington DC, talking about doctors who perform abortions and volunteer escorts My note. Terry’s sympathizers have, in fact, murdered more than a few health care workers.

    “Pastor Jerry Gibson spoke at Doug Whites New Day Covenant Church in Boulder.

    He said that every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society.

    bcseweb.org Rushdooney:
    Our list may not be perfect but it seems to cover those “crimes” against the family that are inferred by Rushdoony’s statement to Moyers. The real frightening side of it is the interpretation of heresy, apostasy and idolatry. Rushdoony’s position seems to suggest that he would have anyone killed who disagreed with his religious opinions. That represents all but a tiny minority of people. Add to that death penalties for what is quite legal, blasphemy, not getting on with parents and working on a Sunday means that it the fantasy ideal world of Rushdoony and his pals, there will be an awful lot of mass murderers and amongst a tiny population.

    We have done figures for the UK which suggest that around 99% of the population would end up dead and the remainder would have each, on average, killed 500 fellow citizens.

    Chalcedon foundation bsceweb.org. Stoning disobedient children to death.Contempt for Parental Authority: Those who consider death as a horrible punishment here must realise that in such a case as
    ….cut for length
    Rev. William Einwechter, “Modern Issues in Biblical Perspective: Stoning Disobedient Children”, The Chalcedon Report, January 1999

    Rushdoony wanted to kill 99% of the US population and start over. A psychopathic wannabe killer. He was also a prominent theologian who founded US Xian Dominionism.

    All the fundie leaders are Xian Dominionists. Falwell, Hagee, Robertson, Parsly, Dobson, Palin, and on and on. They all plainly state they want a xian fundie theocracy. Which is equivalent to destroying the USA. Everyone knows how well theocracies work. The modern ones include Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, and Iran. Life is short and violent death is common.

    No thanks. I’ll let those evil scientists toil on and produce a better life for everyone instead. They are too busy discovering new knowledge to bother shooting someone because they have different ideas about the invisible and supernatural.

  65. RamblinDude says

    wodenforce,

    Does anyone really believe that by eliminating religion that somehow that would allow the flowering of a new human nature or culture? That we could live happily forever after?

    No. But then the goal is not to eliminate religion or even disprove god. The goal is to advance rationality, critical thinking, and knowledge. The discontinuation of superstitious, disproved ideas—whatever they may be—is simply a consequence.

    We have the technology and resources today to make the lives of those 1 billion hapless folk you refer to far better. We can eliminate economic disparity and insecurity, but it’s not science that is hindering the process; it’s human nature. The goal is to understand human nature for what it is so that through understanding we can do something about it. The more accurate our perception, the more intelligently we can act on problems. That’s why science is crucial. It gives us a glimpse into the nature of the real world in a way that no religion, or any other tradition of thought, ever has. Science has taught us that there are consequences to running roughshod over the earth; religion—especially Christianity—hasn’t.

    That, in fact, is one of the reasons why there is a war on science today, and you’re being naïve if you don’t think there is a war. That war on science is the reason why so much effort is being applied by the rational community in shining a light on the dangers of religion. People trained in traditions of faith don’t like what science has to say, and they are impeding the progress of all. Religion needs to be taken to task, but no one thinks this will be a cure-all.

  66. Anri says

    Forget fighting religion racism. It is a lost cause and counter productive. Eliminate economic disparity and insecurity and you will go along way to eliminating religion racism. Don’t demonize people for what to them is part of being human.

    There! That looks better!

    Or, worse. One of the two.

  67. Sastra says

    wodenforce #62 wrote:

    Of course I believe religion is a significant contributor to human misery, but how can you separates religion from language, race, ethnicity, nationality?

    By pointing out, again and again, that religions are based on claims about the role of the supernatural in the world. They are not like race or ethnicity: they are rational conclusions more similar to political views, or a scientific hypotheses. And, because they are rational conclusions, it is possible for them to be wrong.

    The belief that religion is — or ought to be — central to a person’s very identity is a very dangerous belief, because it entrenches dogma. Although all religions are mixed up with culture and family and community and secular values, what makes them unique, and identifiable as religion, are the supernatural claims.

    This has to be emphasized. All you have to do to stop being a Catholic, is think about the issue and decide that the beliefs are not true. All you have to do to stop being an atheist is conclude that the case for God, is persuasive and convincing. You go from one religious view to another by changing your mind: you do not die in the process.

    The cultural belief that it’s just fine — even exemplary — to maintain that changing your mind on an issue because you’ve been given new evidence would be just like dying or losing your entire selfhood — is one that needs to be fought, if we are to maintain intellectual integrity, and honesty. This is true in science, politics — and religion.

  68. wodenforce says

    Raven,

    Just stating that all fundies are dominionists who want to destroy America, doesn’t make it so. Quoting some public loonies doesn’t prove it either. The vast majority of Fundamendalist xtians don’t believe in any of that crap.

    You are creating, in your mind, a vast army of enemies that do not exist, and is no different than their claim that all scientists are out to destroy the values of their children with Darwinist relativism.

  69. Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom says

    I’ll be the first to defend moderate Christians, but the majority of Fundamentalists ARE that stupid. Some aren’t, but most are. It’s going too far to say they ALL are, but it’s not the dualism you’re claiming either

  70. raven says

    wodenforce wrong again:

    Just stating that all fundies are dominionists who want to destroy America, doesn’t make it so. Quoting some public loonies doesn’t prove it either. The vast majority of Fundamendalist xtians don’t believe in any of that crap.

    You are creating, in your mind, a vast army of enemies that do not exist, and is no different than their claim that all scientists are out to destroy the values of their children with Darwinist relativism.

    Got that wrong. Stop lying. It doesn’t work on us.

    Many say that Bush’s most successful war was the War on Science. As scientists we just hunkered down and hoped a lot. Two of my friends died in Iraq. Pretty hard when there are dead bodies and rivers of blood to claim it is all imagination.

    Who hates public education and wants to toss out 2 centuries of science for 2 pages of ancient religious mythology? The creationists, fundie morons all of them.

    Look at what happens in those few states where fundies have control, Texas, Louisiana and so on. They attack public education, attack science, while social problems such as teen age pregnancy go up and the fundies don’t care.

    Who are the terrorists in our society? Xian terrorists have been with us for decades and occasionally assassinate MDs.

    There is no doubt the fundies can and will destroy the USA if they can. They say so often. Everyone knows it. People leave the religion by the millions every year. Even their kids leave. According to the Southern Baptists, 70% of their kids drop out when they can.

    People vote with their feet for their personal survival and the survival of their country. The truth is ugly but it is what it is. You can’t handle it, that is your problem.

  71. raven says

    You are creating, in your mind, a vast army of enemies that do not exist, and is no different than their claim that all scientists are out to destroy the values of their children with Darwinist relativism.

    Yeah, I wish. Reading comprehension isn’t anything you ever heard of.

    We all get death threats and have for years. I used to call the FBI (death threats are felonies) and once they arrested two of them. I don’t even bother anymore. PZ Myers can get up to a 100 death threats a day.

    Fundies have god on their side and one solution to anything in their way. Kill.

    What is the difference between a xian and a moslem fanatic? Nothing. Religious kooks are all the same. We just don’t let ours run around loose. That is what the police, courts, and army are for. That is one of the defining features of a civilized society.

    You will never engage reality, that is obvious. Just so you know, no, you have no right to impose your malevolent fundie beliefs on the rest of us. We vote, we pay taxes, and we employ professionals known as the police, DAs, judges, and soldiers to keep you away from us.

    Sad times for religious fanatics since they lost the power to simply shoot people. Sad times for you.

  72. wodenforce says

    “everyone knows it” is not very convincing.

    You are a scientist? That is frightening.

  73. wodenforce says

    Raven,

    You are clearly nuts.

    I am not trying to impose anything, especially fundamentalist beliefs. I am not even a xian. I am a fucking atheist you moron.

    My problem is that you mash all these things things together and label everybody who is fundamentalist as killers, destroyers etc. You think you know everything about xians. Maybe your family was part of this america hating minority, and for that I am sorry. But don’t be so stupid and put them all in this category.

  74. raven says

    wodenforce the kook:

    “everyone knows it” is not very convincing.

    You are a scientist? That is frightening.

    You are an American death cult xian? Now that is really pathetic and frightening.

    I provided some statistics and cut and paste which you ignored because you are a liar for jesus.

    Why don’t you find a theocracy and join it rather than trying to force one on us? We Americans had one in Massachusets and it was pretty dismal. The Puritans hung 25 witches, hung a few heretics (Quakers and Unitarians), and drove many people out to found Rhode Island.

    That was the previous height of American theocracy and most of us hope it stays that way.

  75. raven says

    Raven,

    You are clearly nuts.

    I am not trying to impose anything, especially fundamentalist beliefs. I am not even a xian. I am a fucking atheist you moron.

    Wodenforce, you might as well convert to xianity. You are 99% of the way there. You are a disgrace and a total failure as an atheist. They don’t need or want nutcases.

    You may have the last word or 2000 words. I really can’t waste more of the day on lunatics.

  76. Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom says

    You did not provide statistics of the point in contention, Raven. It’s not an easy thing to measure, since some fundies are legit not crazy.

  77. wodenforce says

    Raven,

    Look in the mirror. You are fucking batshit crazy. An arrogant fanatic with a maniacal ego. What a great combination of undesirable personality traits.

  78. Sioux Laris says

    #73 wodenforce, you are likely someone who believes they are far more insightful and sincere than anything they are saying shows.

    You were answered, well, more than once. Increasing education, rational thinking, and (my addition, though I think others have implied it) a reasonable* level of cultural (and sub-cultural) relativism are what’s needed.
    Religion, as now understood and abused, will lose its power in such an environment very quickly.

    The world will by no means become a wonderful, perfect place, though almost assuredly a distinctly better one for many more, and various, people.

    (And, in case you continue your current tactics, assume a “so drop dead, you unwashed fecking creep” if this hasn’t gotten through to you. If it has, I never wrote this addendum.)

    *”reasonable” not “ridiculous”

  79. wodenforce says

    “Wodenforce, you might as well convert to xianity. You are 99% of the way there. You are a disgrace and a total failure as an atheist. They don’t need or want nutcases.”

    Is it possible to be a failure as an atheist? Who is “they” that won’t want me Raven? How is it possible to fail at atheism? I have to swallow whatever bullsit comes out of your atheist mouth? Would that make me a good atheist? The problem with this blog is that because you bash religion with whatever retarded stick is your hand, nobody will challenge you. You can say whatever nonsense you want as long as it agrees with the general anti-religion theme.

    You are a living example of why getting rid of religion solves nothing. You have already developed your atheistic orthodoxy and no doubt would have no problem exercising me from your little clique if you had the power. (I would be willing to bet you have already emailed PZ in order to get me banned)

    You have left one religion and have found something else to replace it. You are still the same ol’ little fascist you always were.

  80. RamblinDude says

    I would be willing to bet you have already emailed PZ in order to get me banned)

    Dude, get a grip on reality. You cracking us up.

  82. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    The Christian Dominationists are a small but vocal group. Some well known people, like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Sarah Palin are Christian Dominationists.

  83. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    Damn, I hit submit too soon.

    Religioustolerance.org has a writeup on Dominationism and its twin, Reconstructionism.

    Reconstructionism represents one of the most extreme forms of Fundamentalist Christianity thought found in the U.S. Its followers are attempting to peacefully convert the laws of United States so that they match those of the Hebrew Scriptures. They intend to facilitate this by using the freedom of religion in the US to train a generation of children in private Christian religious schools. Later, their graduates will be charged with the responsibility of creating a new Bible-based political, religious and social order.

    One of the first tasks of this order will be to eliminate religious choice and freedom. Their eventual goal is to achieve the “Kingdom of God” in which much of the world is converted to Christianity. They feel that the power of God’s word will bring about this conversion peacefully. No armed force or insurrection will be needed; in fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan. People will willingly accept it. All that needs to be done is to properly explain it to them. If, as many commentators predict, conversion of the U.S. to a theocracy is met with opposition, Dominionists may have to revert to force.

    All religious organizations, congregations etc. other than strictly fundamentalist Christianity would be suppressed. Nonconforming evangelical, main line and liberal Christian religious institutions would no longer be allowed to hold services, organize, proselytize, etc. Society would revert to the laws and punishments of the Hebrew Scriptures. Any person who advocated or practiced other religious beliefs outside of their home would be tried for idolatry and executed if found guilty. Blasphemy, adultery and homosexual behavior would be criminalized; those found guilty would also be executed. [emphasis added]

  84. sandiseattle says

    Wasn’t the catagory supposed to be:
    Creationism • Humor ?
    (or lack of it as it appears from the early comments)
    How did we degenerate “shouting.”?

  86. Gyeong Hwa Pak, the Pikachu of Anthropology says

    Tis, those Reconstructionist sounds scary, much like the moslem they so hate. But even if they achieve their goal, they’ll probably section out and kill eachother over small differences. Got Jesus, but still no peace. :)(I smile because I know their god will let them down every time.)

  87. John Morales says

    wodenforce:

    You [Raven] are a living example of why getting rid of religion solves nothing. […]
    You have left one religion and have found something else to replace it.

    Your rant is incoherent.

  88. John Morales says

    sandiseattle,

    How did we degenerate TO “shouting.”? I meant, sorry.

    Doncha know this is the Pharyngula echo chamber, where we mindless fundamentalist nihilistic lackeys mindlessly agree with each other about our deep rifts? ;)

  89. wodenforce says

    Dominionists are a tiny tiny minority of Fundamentalists, let alone Xians. They are as likely to to try replace the US Constitution with the Hebrew scriptures, as Obama is going to create indoctrination camps for young people. It is a boogeyman.

  90. Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom says

    “Dominionists are a tiny tiny minority of Fundamentalists, let alone Xians. They are as likely to to try replace the US Constitution with the Hebrew scriptures, as Obama is going to create indoctrination camps for young people. It is a boogeyman.”

    Now, while I’m pretty sure you’re correct, you can’t complain about a lack of statistics if you’re going to keep not showing your work.

    Now, that said, I’m still pretty sure most Evangelicals are crazy, but I also know it’s not all.

  91. Sioux Laris says

    Wodenforce,

    Drop feckin’ dead, you useless, stupid, almost certainly entirely dishonest tool.

    Here’s hoping you are starved to death, troll.

    Have a nice day!

    Respectfully,

    — SL

  93. John Morales says

    wodenforce, is your intended point that religious fundamentalism is harmless and therefore not worth challenging, or is it that using science as a basis for informing policy is equivalent to using religion and constitutes ‘scientism’?

  94. wodenforce says

    John,

    Thanks for asking.

    I see some of the same demonization of the enemy here as I have seen on the rightie side. Labeling all fundamentalist Christians (and there are a lot) as crazy killers and wannabe destroyers of America, is absurd. And though all Dominionists may be Fundies, certainly not all Fundies are Dominionists, as Raven claimed. Most Fundies do not want America destroyed or run by a theocracy. I cannot believe I am the only one to have a problem with that argument.

    My other point about Raven was that he claimed I was a failure as an Atheist, and that “they” don’t want people like me. That sounds like some kind of organized group, with rules, and the ability to set policy. Maybe just an Atheist Club, of sorts. So I am one of “those” other kinds of Atheists.

    I suggested that trying to end religion was a waste of time and that decreasing economic insecurity might be a better way to fight religion. I have had some cool people show me why I am wrong on this, and perhaps I am.

  95. John Morales says

    wodenforce, thanks for the clarification.

    A few things:

    I see some of the same demonization of the enemy here as I have seen on the rightie side.

    “demonisation”?

    Um, others have complained that creationists are being stereotyped. Yet the video describes those who hold certain views, and you no less than others know exactly to which group those view refer to…

    “the enemy”?

    Here’s a partial transcript of those who are mocked in the video:
    … this family is skeptical about science and progress; they certainly don’t believe in the theory of evolution, and they want no part of the evil evolutionists’ war on American children …

    Labeling all fundamentalist Christians (and there are a lot) as crazy killers and wannabe destroyers of America, is absurd.

    Well, you’re being somewhat hyperbolic here; much as the video lampoons what might happen to America if the above-mentioned science-skeptics get enough influence on policy.

    Most Fundies do not want America destroyed or run by a theocracy. I cannot believe I am the only one to have a problem with that argument.

    Well, clearly not. Raven (and the video) are not arguing that they wish destruction or overt power; rather, that if their attitude and principles become policy, that will likely be the outcome.

    And though all Dominionists may be Fundies, certainly not all Fundies are Dominionists, as Raven claimed.

    Can you quote Raven as imputing that?

    My other point about Raven was that he claimed I was a failure as an Atheist […]

    Indeed, Raven extrapolated by assuming you would follow the implications through. Raven is, in a sense, chiding you by implying you’re smart enough to do so. Consider it a back-handed compliment.

    I suggested that trying to end religion was a waste of time and that decreasing economic insecurity might be a better way to fight religion.

    Re your first clause, that’s disputable; re the second, I doubt Raven or any of uswould dispute it.

    PZ is on record as saying he’d have nothing against religion, were it to be no more than a hobby or avocation (such as knitting).

    I think that is the Pharyngula consensus, too.

  96. Rorschach says

    wodenforce apparently hasn’t heard of the Family, and might not be american, maybe that would explain his/her ignorance or naivety regarding the political and social aspirations of organized fundamentalist christians in the USA.

    PZ is on record as saying he’d have nothing against religion, were it to be no more than a hobby or avocation (such as knitting).

    I think that is the Pharyngula consensus, too.

    Agree.

  97. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    wodenforce apparently hasn’t heard of the Family, and might not be american, maybe that would explain his/her ignorance or naivety regarding the political and social aspirations of organized fundamentalist christians in the USA.

    That or his naivete outweighs his ego.

  98. eddie says

    The problem is not that the stereotype doesn’t fit the majority of xtians. The problem is that the majority of xtians are blindly obedient followers. Judging the followers by their leaders is quite valid IMHO.

    If I ever see a congregation telling their pastor “fuck off, fundy troll. we’re having none of it”, then that’ll be the day wodenforce has a case.

  99. raven says

    Maybe the mentally ill crackpot has gone to bed by now.

    wikipedia:

    The term Christian right is used by people from a wide range of conservative political and religious viewpoints, for self identification and outside commentary. Some 15% of the electorate in the United States tell pollsters they align themselves with the Christian right, which serves as an important voting bloc within the U.S. Republican Party. In recent years, Christian right groups have appeared in other countries than the United States such as Canada and the Philippines. However, the Christian right remains a idiosyncratic phenomenon most commonly associated with the United States.[3]

    John C. Green of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life states that Jerry Falwell used the label ‘Religious Right’ to describe himself, until it developed negative connotations, such as of hard-edged politics and intolerance,

    Wikipedia states 15% of the electorate are Xian rightwingnuts. I suspect it is higher than that. They own the GOP these days. McCain and Palin polled 46% of the electorate. They control Texas and Louisiana and probably a few other states.

    No one would give a rat’s ass about these kooks if they weren’t dangerous. And millions of people wouldn’t be dropping out of US xianity if they weren’t appalled by these evil people.

    It is still an open question whether they will destroy our society. They had considerable influence with the Bush disaster, Bush being an evangelical xian. We are still recovering. Piles of dead bodies, rivers of blood, and a dead economy, banking system, and stock market. Just how obvious does it have to be before people catch on?

  100. raven says

    The problem is not that the stereotype doesn’t fit the majority of xtians. The problem is that the majority of xtians are blindly obedient followers. Judging the followers by their leaders is quite valid IMHO.

    Polls show the majority of the US population are sick and tired of the fundie cultists. Most of those are…..OTHER XIANS.

    You have to remember that when xians aren’t hating gays or Moslems they hate each other. The Catholics hate the Protestants and vice versa. The fundies hate everyone and everyone hates them back.

    It just so happens that US xianity has been largely taken over by the fundies. The mainline Protestants sort of look at them like a weird bug in the road and ignore them. The Catholics are more or less comatose since their church heirarchy fossilized in place. Something like only 35% of the RCC go to mass and there is a huge gulf between the clergy and members.

  101. grendelkhan says

    Like most everyone else here says, the video is tribalist pap. It’s designed to appeal to our desires to see ourselves as members of a much cooler group than the other guys, to identify with it and to congratulate ourselves on how much spiffier we are than the other bunch–none of which has the slightest relevance to the merits of the case.

    Science isn’t a good idea because poor people dress and talk funny. Had I standing, I would be offended.

  102. wodenforce says

    I did an informal poll today among a number of Fundies I know. I asked them if they were Dominionists. Most of them didn’t know what that term meant. I said, do you want to replace the constitution with the Hebrew bible. Do you want biblical rule? Most of them were perplexed. These particular folks don’t want to replace the Constitution. Just the opposite. Most want to adhere more closely to the Constititution. So maybe that is where the Reconstructionism comes in. However, I think these folks are no more radicals(reactionaries) than anyone else. If given power they would do what most politicians do. Look at Obama, most Fundies think he is a socialist. In truth, he is not as radical as most of us would have liked. It is called political reality. I think the Fundamentalist danger has been way overblown. Most are not crazy or as stupidly sheepish as some of you imagine.

  103. John Morales says

    wodenforce:

    Fundamentalist danger has been way overblown.

    Uh-huh…

    Sure. [2005 article]
    In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.
    Nabil Shaath says: “President Bush said to all of us: ‘I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, “George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.” And I did, and then God would tell me, “George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …” And I did. And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, “Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.” And by God I’m gonna do it.'”
    Abu Mazen was at the same meeting and recounts how President Bush told him: “I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state.”

  104. Non Edible Nacho says

    Painfully unfunny video. Awfully bigoted, too. And yes, I am an atheist.

    John Morales: those quotes are terrible, but I doubt God is the key to understand them. To me, history shows us that power concentration leads to groupthink from the leaders of the powerful groups -no matter if they are religious or not-, and this leads to the justification of what from a sane outsider’s perspective looks like hateful, violent, murderous policies.

    These are all done with close to 100% conviction that they were the right, even moral thing to do, but religion is only one possible kind of justification for them, and generally not the root of the problem.

    This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t say it’s wrong, because it is wrong and harmful, but to me the best way to go about this is to fight the root of the problem: power inequality, dominionism justified by money, God, race or whatever it is. It can even be justified by secularism, I think, which is something we non religious need to be especially alert about.