President Obama speaking to the Turkish press:
I’ve said before that one of the great strengths of the United States is, although as I mentioned we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.
This is going to be fun.
Great! How long is it, do you think, until Obama gives it to creationism with both barrels?
So, what would Erdogan think?
Glen Beck’s tear glands! Paging glen Becks tear glands! You’re needed on the set!
Ha!
I’ll be in my un-used Millenium Bunker if anyone needs me.
Coulda, shoulda mentioned non-believers. We don’t consider ourselves a “non-believing” nation–allowing that such a thought might be reasonable.
Only a small complaint, understand. Overall, much better than Bush Sr.’s musings about how non-believers aren’t actual citizens of the US.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
I heard a large amount of “popping” sounds earlier today. It sounded just like a bunch of my relative’s heads had exploded. Now I know why.
When that happens, I’ll buy a Cuban cigar (which should be legal at the local tobacco shop by then).
Oh I hope this doesn’t go unnoticed! Can’t wait for the backlash.
I salute President Obama. American democracy has much more to owe to the Enlightenment than to religion, and our traditions and history and precedent confirm this.
I bet the crazies will also have fun with this quote;
Because I’m sure there were plenty of them that thought that was the point to invading Iraq.
Well, as we all know, evangelicals have been on the fence for awhile as to whether Christians are a persecuted minority in a secularized nation or a moral majority in a Christian nation. Maybe this will be a friendly nudge to pick one and stick with it!
Or not.
Good on the President.
I find it very curious when atheists express some kind of joy over him saying we aren’t at war with Islam. Personally I very much agree with Hitchens and Harris on this point. Islam should be fought against. Maybe we shouldn’t be bombing them but surely shaking hands and looking the other way while they stone people to death is not the proper reaction to injustice?
Shades of the Treaty of Tripoli!
I always thought the fact that they are both was supposed to be a miracle and proof of Jesus’s existence, like the loaves and the fishes, the wedding at Cana, and how you can park on a driveway but drive on a parkway.
While I applaud Obama’s statement, I think it’s important to note where he was making it – in Turkey. Most Americans, especially conservatives, don’t realize that modern Turkey has the most secular government in the Middle East, and Turks are very proud about that. Not that they don’t have their share of obnoxious kooks who weasel their way in, but their post-Ottoman secularism is something they identify with.
So I suspect that the statement was intended to remind Turks of their country – a large Muslim majority, but a secular government.
I’m a Deist, not an atheist, but still.
Well, there’s Islam, and there’s Radical Islam. Just like there are Christians and there are Fundamentalist Christians. Radical Islam is what we need to be fighting against. But if we don’t make this clear, it creates a feedback cycle where more of Islam turns radical because they believe they’re under attack as a whole. Which is why it’s so toxic for our President to get up and say we were on a crusade to stop Islam, rather than being very specific that we stand for the radicals that do this horrifying shit.
We get painted as the villains in this conflict, and the people who make grandiose suggestions like glassing the entire Middle East are only making things worse by playing into the propaganda that’s been spread about us.
Oh, the poor xians. One more proof that they’re a horribly downtrodden minority… that will crush anyone who gives them the stink-eye.
From the Treaty of Tripoli which was signed in 1796, during the term of George Washington and ratified by Congress during the term of John Adams:
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
full text: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp
we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.
we do not consider ourselves a Jewish nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.
we do not consider ourselves a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.
archaneus: the secular world and atheists specifically may be “at war” with Islam in the sense of bringing more rationality to the world by trying to marginalize woo, but the U.S. isn’t.
that’s what we get for watering down the meaning of the word “war”. the “war on poverty” is not the same as “the war in Afghanistan” or even that complete idiocy commonly known as “the war on terrorism”. but no one can tell the difference anymore, and everybody gets huffy when we’re not “at war” with everything that’s bad
and I take an issue with Hitchens desire to bomb them before they bomb us.
Don’t Muslim’s hate secular nations? If he’s trying to appeal to them, wouldn’t a message of tolerance work better? While this is good for secularist and is true, it seems likely to draw more ill will than good.
@Archaneus
I say we should be carpet bombing the whole region with blue jeans, rock’n’roll, pornogrpahy, cheap beer, and slyly critical science fiction.
Give them a taste of what fundementalists demonize, let them evaluate the evidence themselves. Rather than dropping the leathal kind of bomb, hit them with dogma-seeking smart weapons.
@#14:
“I find it very curious when atheists express some kind of joy over him saying we aren’t at war with Islam.”
That’s not the part we’re happy about. It’s this: “…we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation.”
@22: Don’t forget the War on Education and War on Science. The former being one of the few successes Bush managed to bring into fruition during his time in the White House!
Cool! Obama is channeling famous American Baptists, like John Leland:
I knew there was a reason why I kinda liked him.
Wow, this is incredible. Only a few months ago, it was ok (and fun, i admit) to laugh about the US still being stuck in the middle ages and now all of a sudden you have a President who is more secular and rational than most of our European politicians.
Look: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,617698,00.html (in German, sry)
The German (Christian) conservatives who are always vocal against Turkey joining the EU start bashing Obama for his supporting Turkey’s ambitions.
I’m jealous. Give me your president!
Here comes the stupid: http://mouthatroared-renay.blogspot.com/2009/03/despair-you-can-believe-in.html
Hitchens appears to be a Cafeteria Realist.
It’s a war on war.
@#14 Archaneus
“I find it very curious when atheists express some kind of joy over him saying we aren’t at war with Islam.”
However, war against Islam has the connotation of being the partisan of Christianity i. e. a crusade – thus, these particular words are not indicative of atheism.
what part of “Turkey is a secular country” did you miss?
I find it very curious when atheists express some kind of joy over him saying we aren’t at war with Islam
Having a “war on Islam” is like having a “war on Terror” or a “war on Drugs” – it’s a stupid thing to say because you can’t be at war with an idea any more than you can be at war with a battle tactic or a collection of pharmaceuticals. “War” has a meaning – and it means giving people weapons and having them kill each other. Using the word in other context makes the person doing it look foolish. It’s a rhetorical framework that leads to sloppy thinking and simplistic “solutions”. (And yeah, that goes for things I agree with like the “War on Poverty” – it’s still a stupid rhetorical device.)
I don’t care if other people have stupid beliefs, as long as they don’t impinge on my beliefs (or non-beliefs as the case may be) where Islam (or any religion) demands otherwise I am more than willing to fight against that. Where people use Islam (or any religion) to provoke violence against other people I’m more than willing to fight against that too. Buy anyone (like Christopher Hitchens) who starts to rail on about how we “need” to go in and fight some kind of “War on Islam” in other people’s countries deserves nothing less than a punch in the mouth and to be ignored. The way you fight against noxious ideas is to point out how noxious they are. The way you fight against silly ideas is to point out how silly they are. Creating some kind of “War Against Ideas That Are Noxious And Silly” only serves to cast the people who believe the noxious and silly ideas into the role of victims and generate sympathy for them.
Also on Monday, the Associated Press reports, “Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States ‘is not at war with Islam’ and called for a greater partnership with the Islamic world.”
I was referring to this part of the article Jadehawk.
Falk, considering the love-hate relationship that Germany has with Turkey, (especially since the Iraq war) makes this somewhat more understandable. still stupid, but understandable.
And why not indeed? Believing that should be a cakewalk after you’ve swallowed the holy trinity. Or indeed the holy cracker, although at least you get
frieswine with that.He finally said something true. I am so happy he did not call the US a christian nation. So happy. His atheist mother raised him right.
Please note that Obama said “a nation of ideals and values” which may or may not require a belief in the supernatural.
Falk @ 28
“I’m jealous. Give me your president”
No, get your own. We’ve spent the past 25 years suffering through 3 bumbling oafs and one oaf who seemed to be trying but couldn’t keep it in his pants. Were not giving this one up. Also, its very nice to feel something about our president other then blinding rage or sorrowful exasperation
I was in Turkey for three months in 1978 and can assure you they have blue jeans, rock’n’roll, pornogrpahy and cheap beer.
Tekel Birasi is quite good really and I remember it being cheaper than Gazus (soda) if a bit cloudy from yeast in the bottle.
Cheap beer has never been an antidote for religion.
Good on ya, heddle for agreeing with that. Does it bother you at all that Obama’s opponent and Obama’s opponent’s running mate, whom you supported enthusiastically, have both been quoted as espousing the opposite view?
One Tripoli fact-slap coming up. One of these days I have to get a bunch of “no motto” one dollar bills from eBay and see if they are accepted as a donation at a church. I suspect this might prove to become a minor setback for Obamas effort to split of a small chunk of evangelical voters from the “family”/GOP/casino money/arms money machine though.
@#14
And unlike hitchens but like Dawkins I try to be an equal oppertunity non believer. 9/11 Madrid Mumbai Bombay and London were all bad but so was the FDA idea of giving “last line of defense” anti biotics to every cow in the US. Not the kind of stunt one can pull of if enough voters understand evolution. All of these bronze age reenactment fanclubs have a decent shot at being the one that is the death of us all.
@Stephen Ockham 24
I fully support the war on cheap beer. It’s damaged our image to the rest of the world and turned the phrase, “American beer” into a punchline (see example).
How is American beer like making love on the beach?
Both are fucking close to water!
Americans can make some kick-ass beer when we put our minds to it and consider beer-making an art form instead of a profit center. It’s just too bad the markets are dominated by Coors and Buds that have to be quaffed cold so we can’t really taste them. Any beer worth drinking should be at least $5 a six-pack. Anything less indicates a watered down brew that’s only good for boiling brats.
Oh, boy. Cue the “America is SO a Christian nation!” kooks in 3…2…1…
This is gonna be great.
A few random thoughts.
The Treaty of Tripoli: there’s a lot of unintentional comedy at Wikipedia over some Christians who’s heads exploded over this. Back in the 1920s a christian wing-nut at the National Archives and Records Administration started going on about how there is no “original Arabic” version of the article of the treaty that dkew @20 quoted. If you’re bored you may want to chuckle over the bizarre arguments found in the “debate” over this. The Wikipedia editors had to lock down the article over editing wars resulting from this idiocy.
Historical context for the Leland quote (heddle @26): Once upon a time the Baptists were the ones being oppressed. Hard to believe now, but true. While on a tour of Providence with some colleagues one from the deep south wanted to visit the first Baptist church built in the U.S. I learned that it was in R.I. because of the founder of that colony, Roger Williams, was the one who came up with the idea of a place that actually practiced tolerance and as such many denominations that could not find safety anywhere else came to Rhode Island (at about the same time that the beloved puritans were lynching quakers). Providence also boasts the first Synagog in the U.S. as well.
I just heard this on the news and had to see if PZ had blogged it yet – glad to see he’s on the ball with this one! Oh, this will be fun indeed!!! It’s nice to finally see something on the news that makes me smile:-)
Thoughtful Guy, I’m still not understanding what your point is. Obama is in turkey, adressing (relatively) moderate Muslims, saying basically that since the U.S. isn’t a Christian nation per-se, it has no beef with Islam per-se. He’s obviously not addressing the fundies, to whom it makes no difference whether this is a christian nation or a secular nation
Alverant, I prefer my disrespectful children deboned and lightly sauteed.
I almost want to tune up FOX News tonight for Beck, O’Reilly, and Hannity to watch them froth at the mouth about this.
there’s absolutely no reason to insult water like that.
as a side note though, Sam Adams beers are usually good, except for Pale Ale, which is your standard-issue horse piss (well, maybe it’s above-standard horse piss, but does that really matter?)
Archie: Personally I very much agree with Hitchens and Harris on this point. Islam should be fought against
Yes — and then we can have a War on French and Impressionism and Postmodernism and Cyberpunkism.
Gah, you can always identify the idiots by their sweeping statements completely unhinged from concrete reality. They love Wars on Abstractions, empty of specifics.
There are specific Bad Things in specific forms of Islam. There are specific Bad Things in specific forms of Christianity. And some of those Bad Things (such as Neo-Platonism) aren’t the kinds of Bad Things you go to war against.
I proclaim a War On Stupidity!
Jadehawk,
Thank goodness for Anchor Steam. It makes even Sam Adams taste like a very average beer, IMHO.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2223632/posts
Just breaking on Freerepublic.
I’ve bookmarked it for the ensuing hilarity!
I was shocked when I went to Germany in the early 1970s and discovered there was drinkable lager beer. I have found decent American lagers, mainly from micro-breweries but a couple of larger breweries, like Anchor Steam and Sierra Nevada, make good lager.
However, I prefer ales (which is probably why I like Anchor Steam). There are many decent ales available in the US and even some good to superb ales. But given my druthers, I’ll stick with the Brown Dog.
Waiting for The Daily Show to get the highlights might save you some pain.
Wouldn’t a War on Islam be unconstitutional?
#48
I had the impression that even moderate Muslims dislike (or hate) secularist more than they dislike Christians. The idea is that at least Christians believe in God and share some of their basic beliefs. Maybe I’m wrong.
Don’t Muslim’s hate secular nations?
He’s talking to Turkey, which is a secular nation. As #17 said, many Turks are proud of that fact.
We had a tour guide, when I saw Ephesus, who was very proud to live in a secular nation, and very pissed at the rest of the Middle East for being insane. He was pissed that Turks have to be grouped in with them. They are trying to join the EU, but it’s not looking good right now.
I really like this freeper comment:
I wonder if he has actually read the constitution?
‘Tis Himself,
Looks like you and I are of the same mind concerning Anchor Steam. I haven’t tried Brown Dog yet, but am now interested. You’re right, Sierra Nevada is pretty good too, but I’ve had better.
Our nation values a diversity (hic) of beverages. We are not a Coors nation, or a Bud nation, but we do share a love of hops (hic) and malted barley (braaaap). As one of our Founding Fathers is alleged to have belched, ‘The United States is by no means a nation of inexpensive, watered-down lagers and pilsners. Stout-swillers, ale-inhalers, and even (gasp) non-imbibers are welcome.’
Who could object to that?
Archaneus, #14: Maybe we shouldn’t be bombing them but surely shaking hands and looking the other way while they stone people to death is not the proper reaction to injustice?
Dude, he made these comments in Turkey. A country that is predominantly Muslim, but where Muslims aren’t stoning people to death. In fact, a country that is predominantly Muslim that nonetheless takes the idea of secular government as seriously as France does.
Speaking of beer in the USA, anybody ever go into a restaurant, order a Hefeweizen, and have it come back with a lemon floating in it? I can kind of understand chucking a lime in a bottle of bad Mexican beer, but lemons in Hefeweizen? Weird…
well, I shall test this theory as soon as possible. which won’t be soon, because something tells me that such fancy stuff doesn’t get sold much in North Dakota liquor stores. I get weird looks for only buying “that expensive stuff” already, heheh
I love when Obama says things that’ll make wingers head explode.
That’s a rather… odd notion, isn’t it? To begin with, if you hate someone just for their ideas, could you really be called a moderate? But besides that, and going for some decidedly anecdotal evidence here (but I suppose that’s actually better evidence than some sweeping “impression”), the few Muslims I’ve discussed beliefs with have had no problem at all with me being an atheist, and I know that they take their religion at least somewhat seriously. Frankly those conversations were more pleasant than a few I’ve had with Christians.
People are people, and on a personal basis most people are actually pretty nice even if you disagree fundamentally with their world-view (I’m saying this as a deeply cynical person, mind). But there are always a lot of idiots around too. Generalizations rarely does anyone any favours.
I recently spent a week in Florida and was pleasantly surprised by the wide selection of craft beer in the Publix store. I simply wasn’t able to sample them all in the week I was there, but there were some excellent IPA and organic bottle conditioned beers and the dry hopped Michelob pale ale demonstrated what a large brewer can do to make a very drinkable, flavourful beer at a reasonable price. ($1 each)
The USA is not a nation of piss weak beer or mindless religion. There are intelligent people and fine flavourful beer – you just have to look a bit harder and avoid the megachurches and megabreweries.
Good Beer: From Canuckida: Labatt Blue
From US: Some Sam Adams flavors and various other microbrews
Haven’t been versed much, since I can’t legally drink back home (but I’m not theeeere now). I do enjoy a stout/porter, and when I go to England in a couple weeks I am definitely getting my hands on a cold Newcastle.
If it has to be watery, I go for Keystone, because at least it doesn’t taste like sewage.
And that children is why we are lucky to live in secular nations: booze.
Bacon?
I agree, the response to this is going to be fun to watch. I’m gonna pop some corn before the evening Faux News programs start.
Michelle Bachmann, that should turn her into overdrive. BTO.
http://wonkette.com/407591/update-michele-bachmann-does-more-crazy-stuff
Archaneus:
I agree but here is the distinction I make. The President of the USA responsibility is to promote the freedom of and from religion and not antagonize countries outright. Science, on the other hand, along with logic and reason should fight the supernatural in all levels of public and private discourse. So I think Obama is being diplomatic and leaves the “war” to us. I think we simply have to fight ignorance.
Just because you can find the good stuff here and there doesn’t mean we aren’t a nation of piss weak beer and mindless religion… we are still that! Getting better, for sure, but still…
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=87896
It has begun!
Well, this restores a little bit of my faith in The Pres after his marijuana town hall dis. A little.
I do hope this is shades of things to come.
There are a lot of great craft breweries in the US, and it is growing.
I spend probably too much of my time trying as many of these as possible.
If you are in a place that does not have them then that is a shame because most states now have relaxed their idiotic alcohol laws and allow beers to be sold that are brewed with a wide variety of styles and alcohol levels.
Good ones to try
Dogfish Head brewery
Sweetwater
Stone
Flying Dog
Bells
Great Divide
Oskar Blues
Rogue
Lagunitas
That is but a small small sampling of what is out there but every beer from any of the above that i ahve personally had is fantastic.
derail over
I’m as big a beer snob as the next white guy; I prefer ’em hoppy and strong, so I go for IPAs mostly, with the occasional stout, brown, or lager for variety (don’t truck much with hefeweizens, but according to ‘kipedia: “Kristallweizen (especially in Austria) and American styles of wheat beer are sometimes served with a slice of lemon in the glass; this is generally frowned upon in Bavaria.”).
That said, I was weaned on Iron City and I still think there’s nothing like a cold Bud or Stroh’s or 5 on a hot summer day playing softball or doing yardwork, or to wash down a garlicky pizza. These beverages are different from “good beers” but they are nevertheless useful, refreshing, and even tasty within their own functional niche.
I can vouch for that. I was recently in the Bay Area for a while and, although I mostly drank Anchor Steam (widely available and pretty good), I did visit Jack’s Cannery Bar in San Francisco one day, where they claim to have 80-something beers on tap (and they sure have a lot of taps), about half of them produced by local microbreweries; the couple of local beers that I tried there were very good. In/around Boston, I found a huge range of good beers widely available too. In fairness, the “American beer” jibes are really about the popular but utterly characterless macrobrews (Bud, Coors, PBR, etc.), which have been brewed for minimum flavour — nobody can dislike the taste if there isn’t any.
And that children is why we are lucky to live in secular nations: booze.
Booze, contraception, and being able to sleep in on weekends!
Jadehawk,
You can get a few fun beers at Old Chicago, and there’s a pretty good liquor store in Moorhead that sells some good microbrews (I think on 8th…across from Hornbachers). If all else fails, you can join the Microbrew of the Month club or something like that. :-)
@77: Oskar Blues! I literally just polished off a can of Dale’s Pale Ale.
FR hurts my brain to read.. please stop trying to hurt my brain
Let it be known that this time I was not responsible for this food/beer related derailing.
Just continuing it.
Guy @64,
here in Germany, it’s not unusual for Kristallweizen (Weissbier with the yeast filtred out) to be served with a slice of lemon; but to put a lemon slice (or anything else) into the more frequently served Hefeweizen would be a gross faux pas.
From the little I know of the US beer market, I have the impression that Belgian (and Belgian-style) witbier — Hoegaarden, say — is more common than German(-style) Weissbier. The Belgian stuff is fine in its way but not the same thing[FN1]. The Brooklyn Brewing Company make a very decent German-style Hefeweizen; it can hold its head high next to Schöfferhofer (indeed, can look down on it), and while it isn’t Paulaner, really has nothing to be ashamed of. Unless you stick a lemon in it.
[FN1] BTW, if you are looking for German wheat beer, beware of Berlin-style Weisse (e.g. Berliner Kindl). Though it has, as do the other sorts, wheat in its wort, there the resemblance ends. It is a different thing altogether, intended to be dosed with raspberry or woodruff syrup and drunk through a straw. I will not, cultural relativist that I am, say that this is necessarily a bad thing, merely that if you order it having expected something like either Schneider or Hoegaarden, you are going to be surprised and disappointed.
Booze, contraception, and being able to sleep in on weekends!
All three could make for a great Friday/Saturday night/morning/afternoon/brunch-ish time. That is, of course, as long as you’re not too heavy on the first, and don’t forget the second (this being easy, so long as you follow the first part of the morning).
@ 18,
So the stadiums are full of strictly fundamentalist muslims when they publicly execute or mutilate or flog women or gays? I doubt it.
Agree with the mangled usage of the term war as in “the war on xyz” though.We have Bush/Cheney to thank for that.
And yes,that should be an interesting Daily Show !!
first part of the morning
“Warning”! I meant “warning”! Dammit. must. get away from computer. and. sleep.
I would agree to that
another reason to move to fargo, it seems…
however, this thread is now bookmarked under “beer” :-)
Well, if you were taught that Iron City was drinkable, then it’s not surprising you can find Bud or Strohs “refreshing.” Personally, I think Iron City is a below-average cheap lager. There are worse cheap lagers (PBR and Schlitz come immediately to mind) but not many.
Once upon a time there was a beer brewed in Rhode Island called Narragansett (or ‘gansett to the cognoscenti). The Narragansett brewery was bought out by Falstaff and stopped brewing beer in the early 1980s and ‘gansett was brewed in a Falstaff brewery in Illinois or Indiana, I forget which. Everyone agreed that midwest brewed ‘gansett was terrible and sales plummeted. A couple of years ago, some Rhode Island businessmen bought the Naragansett name and started making ‘gansett. Their advertising slogan was ‘gansett doesn’t suck any more. And for once there was truth in advertising.
speaking of Weissbier: I have just come back from a trip home to Germany, and have encountered the interesting phenomenon of Dunkles Weissbier. the oxymoron was intriguing enough to order it, and once I got over the fact that there was unidentifiable goo at the bottom of my glass, I found it quite tasty :-)
Cool – a President who actually GETS that. Well done, Mr. President.
Have the wingnuts to start screaming about Obama being a sleeper soldier of Stealth Islam yet?
My usual. It’s a national brand (now), but it’s a good IPA
I enjoyed Sam Adams, and Shiner Bock is quite drinkable.
Sheesh, everyone knows the Preamble to the Constitution is where we acknowledged that our Creator has endowed us with various unalienable rights. Rush Limbaugh said so.
jadehawk @ 92,
Yes,used to love it,and it usually has higher alcohol content too,2 of those with a Sunday lunch,and you are switched on for the rest of the day..:-)
And,praise “Dan Murphy’s”(a liquor store chain here in Oz),some varieties are available here !!
I’m guessing that you probably can get bacon in Turkey. Not everyone there is a Muslim.
But pastirma totally rocks, anyway.
As I understand it, the reason for the US being keen on Turkey’s entry into the EU is the security issue – there are US bases in Turkey, and the US would like to beef them up, to fight more Arabs, for more oil. Or something like that. The only other guys who want Turkey in are the secular turks, to fight the religious zealots, and the UK government, probably for the same reason the US wants them in. The citizens of the UK are somewhat less enamoured of the prospect. I wish the US would butt out of that particular issue. It really is none of their business. It’s a bit like us insisting that Puerto Rico joins the US. Most of the EU does not want Turkey in. It’s a basket case economically, and a potential religious nightmare.
To address both sides of the thread…I don’t drink beer 99.99% of the time so have no preferences there. However, it is wonderful to have a POTUS who actually gets it! (and the fundies on Rapture Ready and the freaks at Free Republic are going nuts. A few sane minds on FR tried to point out the Treaty of Tripoli but their posts were just steamrollered over by the rest of the Freepers screaming about Zero and how he has ruined the country)
oooh… i can’t deal with freepers, but must go look at RR. wonder if they’re having another bout of “it’s the Rapture!!! now!! any second now!!!”
There are more atheists than Jews or Muslims in the US. Too bad he didn’t mention atheists.
And oh, yeah, in college I did drink me some Falstaff. Oh, my, yes. It was cheap as hell and came in squat little 11-oz. bottles (so a case shorted you 2 standard-sized beers) and they had little rebuses on the bottlecaps that were fun to collect ‘n’ trade. There was one that nobody ever figured out and I wish I still had it.
Now this was back in the day before Pete’s Wicked and Sam Adams et al. Stuff like Rainier Ale and Gennesee Cream Ale and oh-help-us Michelob were generally considered quality domestic beers, and for imports you could pretty much choose Heineken or Beck’s; maybe St. Pauli Girl or Bass if you were lucky. Not even Moosehead was on the scene yet. (Of course, just over the bridge in Windsor we could get all manner of interesting Canadian varieties with exotic names like Molson and Labatt’s, so there was some dim knowledge that there was more out there.) When I moved out to California in 1981 and tried an Anchor Steam I was amazed.
But I can countenance no further hating on Iron City.
Or otherwise. Some years ago (wait… that was actually more than a decade ago… wow, tempus fuckin’ fugit, eh?) I was on business travel in San Antonio and had Shiner Bock ice cream! I ordered it because it was too weird not to… but I was shocked by the fact that it was actually quite tasty.
I’ve forgotten the name of the ice cream bar, but it was locally famous, in part because of oddities like Shiner Bock ice cream, but mostly because the servers were cute girls who would, on request, get up and dance on the bar. Kind of a PG-rated ice cream version of Coyote Ugly, I suppose. Any of the Texican Pharyngulists know the place?
“Coyote Fudgely” should be a flavor.
No wonder I’ve been hearing (over Limpdick) a popping sound — either that or the server’s hard drive is crashing.
<>
Nope, must be the limbots.
Obama is the most dangerous man that has ever had power in the United States. Man, those FEMA camps are getting scarier all the time.
It seems like to me he needs to read his history book – not one written as revised history, but a real one. Go to the library and find one that was written around 1950 or before and read it. Forget it after that year. The libs invaded and screwed up history to gain political dominance.
Someone has never heard of Gary DeMar.
The Politcally Incorrect guide to American History may be a good way to start. It should be availavble to all high school students anyway along with the rest of the series.
On the beer sub-thread: an acquaintance of mine owns a brewpub/bar. There is a sign on the door declaring it a “lite-free zone.” He’s stopped selling mass produced American beers altogether, although he has lots of good American microbrews. But, back in the day when he still had things like Coors and Bud available, he had them in a special part of the beer list under the heading “Industrial Swill” and charged $8 for the privilege of drinking one. I really admired that. Still do, actually.
A couple of years ago, I had to take a business trip to Grand Rapids, MI (I live in Canada). I didn’t want to be one of “those” Canadians that go to the States and tries to find Canadian beers, so I tried some of the American standards while I was there (Pabst, Sam Adams, Budweiser – which is slightly different than the Bud we get in Canada). The only thing that saved me was finding a pair of pubs that had Newcastle Brown Ale, Guinness (which I had to teach the bartender how to pour properly), and a surprisingly good local microbrew named Sundog.
As far as good microbeer is concerned, give me Victory or give me death!
Karl Strauss is also pretty decent.
(New Yorker from San Diego by way of Central PA, who recently learned that there’s no homebrew supply anywhere in the boroughs! Saddened Monkey!)
Are you out of your fucking mind?
Araina: you said:
“Wouldn’t a War on Islam be unconstitutional?”
————-
Yes it would be, that’s why it is called the Global War on Terror. I know Hussein Obama chnaged it to a sissy politically corect logo, but that will fade away once he is defeated in the next election. Then it will once again be the Global War on Terror. To conservative slike myself, we still call it the war on terror regardless of our weak government minds.
Besides, isn’t the War on Christmas unconstitutional?
Are you out of your fucking mind?
Yes, he/she is, Watchmen. That is what Michelobe(spelling?) and budweiser do to the brain.
The only thing you can do is ignore it and move along, slightly more jaded than you were a moment before, and regain some of your faith in humanity with a nice, cold pint of real beer.
Sven (OM):
I can do you one better: I was in college during the initial heyday of generic products, before they morphed into store brands, and my roommate and I used to buy BEER. It came in a plain white can with no markings other than the word “BEER” and a barcode (I suppose it must’ve had some legally required labeling, actually, but no graphics or marketing words).
Mmmmm… beer!
Gennesee Cream Ale
Ahh, the Green Death! I attended graduate school at SUNY-Binghamton (as we called it then; it’s now Binghamton University), and Jenny Cream was the baseline standard for all campus beer parties. Good times! ;^)
constitution fail, reality fail. christmas isn’t protected by the constitution, and there’s no such thing as the war on christmas. you don’t even have the shadow of a point
Not fair, derender. One of my buddies lost his marbles during the War on Christmas.
So we just gave him another orange and more crackerjacks.
Watchman asked (of derender):
If his recent comments on the other threads are anything to go by…yes, yes he is. He’s an uninformed, closed-minded, woo-addled Jesus-freak of the least interesting kind. He’s ignorant, barely coherent and proud of it.
Another fine example of what religion can do to an already weak mind.
Also, I must admit that, despite being a beer snob… I’m actually not THAT fond of hops. I don’t like most IPAs, for example, as a result, and the most widely-distributed good brews tend to go in that direction.
I’m a big fan of Bocks and all subspecies thereof (doppel, honey, etc), but they’re hard to find in the States…
Most microbreweries, or at least those which last more than a couple of years, make good beers, ales, etc. If you want something a little exotic then microbrews are a good place to start. There’s a microbrewery in Oshkosh, Wisconsin called Fox River that makes a blueberry beer that’s actually drinkable.
Living near Christ Central (Colo Springs) I fully expect to lose my southern horizon for viewing tonight when Fuckus on the Fambly explodes with self-righteous wrath.
In other news, Flying Dog Brewery makes a great litter of beers with In Heat Wheat being a personal favorite.
Dawn (or Jadehawk) any chance of a sample post? Fundie meltdown, in moderation, is just my kind of thing!
And beer? Fucking Americans talking about beer? Purleaze. Oh yeah micro-breweries eh? Pfft. Here in the UK we’ve got macro-breweries. It’s a whole evolutionary step better! He he. I live near the Campaign for Real Ale’s pub of the year 2008 – and you tell me that the US has nothing worth losing you marriage over.
Nah. Budweiser. Fucking Budweiser! Why not boast about something the US is good at?
*like having a great, wise President. Remarks about Islam headline news on BBC world service*
Beer= Innis and Gunn
If it’s not Scottish it’s crap!!!
I googled Obama and Turkey and found some articles regarding his intinerary, etc.
One article mentioned the following which I found amusing:
Budweiser causes diarrhea,and that is where we get Michelob.
Drink European, kids.
Oh. Right. “Wingnut Meltdown Imminent”.
Sorry. I wasn’t thinking.
THe meltdown started when Obama was elected.
Bunch of whiney ass babies.
Derender is serious and yes he’s an idiot.
Quit lying Derender.
One more comment on beer. I LOVED XXXX and Victoria Bitter when I lived in Brisbane. You can’t get it here in the US though. :(
You see? You start discussing American beer, and now we’ve got a Vampire apologist….
“Wingnut Meltdown Imminent”.
If only they melted down into something we could use…
nothing too great yet, but here’s a few samples:
So, where again is that Birth Certificate? He is probably going to make himself World Leader soon. We will not have another Presidental Election in our blessed Republic I fear.
and
To: Obama
Read the Constitution!!!
derender, are you going to come back to the Iowa thread to show me why the evidence I laid out doesn’t point to humans sharing a common ancestor with chimpanzees?
Dahan wrote:
Dude, seriously? When was this? Did you try any other kinds?
XXXX is possibly the worst beer I’ve ever had. I was never happier than when I moved from Queensland to South Australia and was never offered another tin of that vile cat’s piss again.
Almost every other beer you get in Australia is better than XXXX.
Long time lurker, first time poster here. It took beer to drag me out into the open. I’ve been a beer snob for a while now, and there are TONS of good microbrews in the U.S. Whenever I go anywhere, I make an effort to find the local brew and try that. I’m just doing my bit to encourage small brewers.
There’s a discussion up-thread about Berliner Weiss; Nodding Head brew pub in Philly does an authentic one with woodruff syrup already in it. It reminds me more of the sour style
Belgians than a Heffe Weiss. I loved it, but it’s definitely not for everyone.
@Falyne, I had a Hop Devil in my hand when I read your comment.
As far as the actual topic of the thread goes, I’m waiting for the ‘sploding head noises too, but I live in a relatively liberal state, so I’m going to have to listen pretty hard. I hadn’t voted for a major party candidate since the early ’90’s but moments like this make me not regret voting for a centrist like Obama. (Let’s face it, the guy is barely left of center.)
On the beer sub-thread:
A marketing professor where I work once told me that in the 60s beer companies did extensive market testing. Blindfolded testing, large sample sizes, a variety of beers, real rigorous research. But they discovered that the majority of Americans could not tell the difference between one kind of beer and another. They could not even tell the difference between potato juice and mouse piss.
As a result, the big breweries, Anheuser Busch, Miller, Pabst (they were separate and competitors at this time before mergers) which used to produce distinctive beers with different (to the brew-masters) tastes, all gave up on quality then put their money into marketing. Voila! Tasteless beer.
Only in the 80s did the microbreweries find an ever expanding niche market (not so much a niche anymore?) of people who could actually taste the difference between beer and Bud.
So, does that mean there was something wrong with our parents’ and grandparents’ tastebuds?
Well you may not lsiten to me, but maybe you will listen to a fellow atheist and science man. take a look at the new video on Greg Laden’s blog about Michele Bachmann. this is what I am referring to when I say Barack Hussein Obama is a dangerous man and so is our congress. Also the NY Times had something to say in regards as well at
Charles Blow fears right-wing armed revolution
http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090406130729.aspx
NewsBusters is also a good source of such items.
I’m with Wowbagger on this, you were drinking rat’s piss. Coopers, James Squire, Boags, Little Creatures, Matilda Bay – now that’s where the good beer in Aus is.
Yawn, we don’t listen to village idiots derender. What part of reality don’t you understand? You are the village idiot.
ah yes, beers with sweet stuff in them: personally, I prefer schwarzbier and cherry syrup (more specifically, Schwarzer Herzog and cherry syrup, but that one is only available in a 15 km radius around my hometown, as far as I can tell). it makes a pretty good lunch substitute, heheh
Bacon Beer!
My local grocery store carries Goose Island brand beers. Any opinions? (I know, stupid question with this bunch.)
You must be listening.You keep replying.
Thanks PZ, I now understand the cause of the disturbance I felt earlier in the wingnut Force. BTW, it still hasn’t subsided.
What is that? Village idiot still not saying anything intelligent. Must be a reason for the idiot label.
No (and srsly) – what I think happens is that a subset of people, with taste and experience, realise that something delicious is being trashed. It nearly happened with beer in the UK in the 70s, but now we have some fantastic beer, as of course does the US and Europe. Japan also, interestingly – the story here is that around about the 1900s, for some reason, the Japanese decided that they wanted beer (around about the same time, they wanted meat too – to make them bigger, like the Europeans*) so they imported German brewers from…Bavaria, to produce great beer for them. Which they did. Hence…magnificent beers from Hokkaido, in particular…
It’s something to do with a decent consequence of the law of supply and demand.
*please disagree, enterainly, and with evidence – or at the very least anecdote!
Sven DiMilo
Agreed. You have to go into a bout of drinking Iron City and the like with the proper mindset. You don’t flare your nostrils and talk about its hoppiness in effete and dulcet tones. You knock that sucker back and wipe your mouth on your sleeve. Then you go weld something.
Derender allows:
Cool as fuck.
Frankly, Beehoven’s better.
derender has a very interesting argument. He’s saying that Obama is dangerous because people like derender go completly pants-on-head stupid at the mere mention of his (Obama’s) name. Says a lot more about derender than Obama.
My local grocery store carries Goose Island brand beers. Any opinions?
Buy or don’t buy, drink or don’t drink. Frankly, Nerd, it seems to me one of life’s less interesting dilemmas p;¬y
First I hated them but now….
Yay! Beer and wingnut meltdowns all around! Happy Monkey everyone!
Personally, I’m with the IPA crowd — Sierra Nevada is basically a staple in our kitchen. Dogfish Head is pretty happening, but I have yet to cough up the eleventy-hundred dollars they want for that 120-minute IPA of theirs. Anyone tried it? Is it worth it, or just a bunch of hype?
I think you’re going a little far here…
At best, it’s an intriguing thought. Totally caned by reality, however.
Sven DiMilo,
Damn straight.
Oh, and Sven: Check those box scores. Buy your World Series tickets early.
@FierceGeekChick 132
Heh, though I must say, Hop Devil is (as per my later comment about hops) the one Victory beer I *do not* like.
But of course a Golden Monkey is a Happy Monkey!
But does any of the profit go the World? Or to series? – the Binomial expanson is crumbling, mathematicians fear.
Heddle – you’re a Christian – could you pray for infinite expansions? If Pi stopped being Pi there would be circly hell to pay. And it would be your fault….
I would like to de-lurk for a moment to recommend Black Butte Porter by Deschutes Brewery in Oregon. Or Lizard Head Red from Steamworks Brewery in Durango, Colorado.
heddle you are not suggesting the pirates are going to the world series are you?
“Then you go weld something.”
We’re talking after one beer, right?
flaq, I find the 120 a bit over the top. It’s like 20% alcohol, for one thing, and it smells like medicine. It’s syrupy and sweet behind the ridiculous hops and I have to say it’s not my cup o’meat. On the other hand, I’ll drink the 60 all day long (and sometimes I do!)
Derender said:
Well, OK then. But there isn’t a War on Islam or Christmas and I don’t see how there ever could be under the U.S. Constitution because of the First Amendment.
BTW, I just tried a Samuel Adams cream stout last night, I think it’s my first Sam Adams beer. Pretty good.
I just posted about this recently in another thread: I, too, was relucant to pay the price of a very nice sixpack for just a single bottle of the 120-min IPA… but I did, on the advice of this crowd, and I’m damn glad. It was transcendent!
Not necessarily. Remember, they are talking about the Weld series….
@flaq #148
I’m a big fan of Dogfish Head. I have a friend who works for them, and she always has more beer than she knows what to do with, so I benefit from that frequently. I really love the 90 Minute, but I think the 120 is a bit too far over the top. The alcohol content is over 20%, and I find the mouth feel too syrupy for my taste. It’s more like a barley liqueur than a beer. If you like that style, go for it. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother. If you like really big IPAs try to find Lagunita’s Hop Stoopid. I’ve only seen it once at my local beer bar, so I suspect it’s a seasonal. Hands down the best double IPA I’ve ever had.
@Falyne, I dig the Golden Monkey as well. Happy, happy monkey.
Bill Dauphin at #103:
Was it Amy’s Ice Creams?
http://www.amysicecreams.com/
Check the ’bout da ice cream link, List of Flavors. Shiner’s there (along with a bunch of other flavors that have booze of various kinds).
Amy’s is awesome. After a hot Texas day, when the sun goes down, and the heat starts to dissipate, stop in for a funky flavor, they make it on a cold slab and add all kinds of things you might want (or don’t, as you please), and the staff at the one in Austin on Guadalupe are great – friendly, funny, prone to the occasional ice cream toss.
No kings,
Robert
Well, by “interesting” I meant “absurd, deranged and stupid”. For that value of “interesting” I think I’m right.
Agreed.
Dogfish Head is hands down my favorite brewery right now.
Unfortunately they don’t sell in SC so I have to get what I can when i travel to NC and GA. I love 90 min ipa and have not had the pleasure of having the 120 min IPA.
But they have so many other cool seasonal and special beers. They really are artisans.
I’m pretty good friends with the owner of Sweetwater brewery in ATL. If you haven’t had their IPA try that, it’s really good too.
Well, heck: I didn’t realize I was going to be disagreeing with our newest Mollyist about the 120. I will agree that it’s not the sort of brew you drink all day… but as an occasional treat, I’m sure I’ll be back to it.
As for the main subject of the thread, I guess I’ve been talking beer to avoid it, because I’ve been thinking a lot recently that the wingnut meltdowns are a bit too scary to be funny these days. I don’t mean to make too much of this, but apparently the right-wing “Obama’s gonna confiscate your guns” scaremongering apparently played some small role in the Pittsburgh shooting spree last weekend. Add to that all the seriously whackaloon stuff Michelle Bachmann has been saying (yes, I know plenty of others have been saying stuff just as freaky, but she’s a damn member of Congress), and I’m beginning to worry that it won’t stay just talk.
I think that was his suggestion, Rev, yes. Of course they’ll have to get past the Mets first. (Disclosure: my baseball allegiances are split pretty evenly Mets/Pirates, with a small spot of nostalgic affection for the Dodgers left over from grad school.) Do not bother me with any prattle about Atlanta.
hahahahahaha
Desert Son:
That looks like the place! Although, at the time I didn’t realize it was a regional powerhouse: I thought it was a local San Antonio hot-spot (or should that be cold-spot?).
Hey derender, most people here do know Michelle Bachmann, her thoughtful advice to the media to do “exposes” on members of congress did earn her a thread or two on this blog. I would suggest the media should start with her.
Nice of you to put the meth pipe down long enough to write, and show us how racist you are, but you can go now. And watch for the door knob, it hurts our trolls real bad when it hits them in the butt.
VB is on my bucket list now, after hearing my Aussie lab mate Kurt go on and on about it, a pleasure he was deprived of during his stint in the Pacific NW. On his reco, I *will* get over there sometime and have it, before the big dirt nap.
Back while he was here, Foster’s was running this ad campaign with some semi-amusing vignettes, followed by the tagline “Fosters: Australian for beer”. Or, as Kurt always put it, “Fosters: Australian for piss”.
Good man, Kurt.
Plenty of room for good-natured disagreement about stuff like beers and baseball, Bill (for me, the transcendant brew of choice is Sierra Nevada’s Bigfoot barleywine, a journey of flavors with every swig).
But yeah, agreed: armed and violent wingers are not kidding material. Our side of the Culture Wars is going to be outgunned when things go fecoventilatory. Situation bears close watching.
No, you won’t take me on will you? Ameriacn beer? I am so concerned for you;-.
Guys seriously, if American beer is like American wanking, you are missing something.
And I speak here as a now deluded afficianado.
And blind, or at least, seriously spectacled p8)
You know it’s weird how under eight years of Bush the dems may have annoyed and frustrated, but kept their actions peaceful and civil. But as soon as the Republicans find themselves on the losing side? Assassination attempts during the election, every kind of manufactured slander they could think of, and now talk of an armed revolution?! Conservatives are quickly showing themselves to be the most undemocratic, unconsitiutional pack of violent, self-serving malcontents in America.
Although, I’m tempted to say that the US should allow the southern states to become their own country. Heck, pay for all the liberals there move north, and the conservatives in the US to move south. I give it three months before the new Fundie Nation becomes a dystopian theocracy that rivals Saudi Arabia, and a year before people start fleeing across the border to Mexico in search of better living conditions.
Did you guys see the article on Globe Gazette today? The ruling in Iowa has spurred some interesting thoughts among some conservative groups. They are calling for other states to use this event as an example as to why they need to pass marriage amendments NOW and not wait any longer. Take a look at
http://www.globegazette.com/articles/2009/04/04/news/latest/doc49d7e5e5792a7148960288.txt
Yes, Anthony, English Real Ale is fabulous stuff, really; I thoroughly enjoyed every pint of bitter I quaffed when I was over there many years ago, and I managed to quaff quite a few.
It’s fascinating to see the pseudo-patriotism of the Republicans exposed so blatantly. Geeze, Chuck Norris, who had some geek respect from me for working with Bruce Lee, is out there talking about forming a new independent Texas, with him as president. That is the essence of conservative Republican pseudo-patriots.
As for beer, I go for High Falls Brewery’s Dundee Honey Brown Lager.
Hey Anthony — if you keep insisting that Budweiser represents the state of American beer, I’ll be very tempted to start making tasteless remarks about meat pies and bad teeth.
Sven:
Re…
I know you had to be dragged into the Order of Molly kicking and screaming, but surely you’ll graciously accept my nomination of this as Neologism of the Week?
In the same vein, I’m fond of referring to weak and lame things as semigluteal.
Re baseball, I grew up an Astros fan, but I’m committed to the idea that one should support one’s local team, and now that I live in New England, that means I’m bound to think the Sawwwx are wicked awesome. Of course, I don’t have the same level of passion as those born and bred in Red Sox Nation… but I will note that in the 9 years since I moved to New England, 2 WS championships; in the 81 previous years, not so much! Patriots have done pretty well since I hit the area, too. I’m jus’ sayin’….
All that said, the heart and soul of New England sports will be on display tomorrow night in St. Louis, when Geno’s girls put yet another whackin’ on the misfortunate ladies from Louisville.
Meanwhile, Harold Koh is being slandered with the made-up story that he thinks sharia law should be applied in the U.S. He is President Obama’s choice for legal adviser to the State Department. The Slate is asking people to speak up for Koh and get the other side of the story out, before the U.S. is awash with hysteria.
May I request a little attention from the horde?
Yep, the RR people have still call Obama a “muslim”:
Well, that is pretty obvious. Look who our leaders are:
BO – an America hating Muslim Marxist
Nazi Pelosi
Bawney Fwank
Cheers Sven! Foaming tankard to the heavens! And of course, as you realise, my often silly posts are frequently related to the fact that, apparently randomly, the US has elected a Wise president.
I am so excited – as no doubt you are too.
What happens in the world when the US has a pres who is aware?
Luckily, we are about to find out….
I’m creaming m;y virtual jeans over it. As we all are. Wait till he makes his speech about creationism..
‘Cos if we’re right – he will.
To put some perspective on it, Obama is just playing clever politics.
Turkey became officially secular in the early 20th century after a revolution by Aturak (sp???) who is revered as the father of modern Turkey.
These days the secular republic is under attack by islamofascists. Sound familiar? Just replace Turkey by USA and islamofascists with christofascists.
What he is saying. You can still have a secular prosperous democracy with a xian or islamic majority. Of course, the fundies of both religions are desperately trying to prove that wrong.
Pharyngula welcomes the Limbaugh delegation. Please do not eat the paste.
Perfect, bad grammer and bad formatting. I rock!
(:P
Get it right, Reynold! It’s Muslin!
Re #185:
That’s not me, that’s the RR guy I was quoting. Check the link.
“if you keep insisting that Budweiser represents the state of American beer, I’ll be very tempted to start making tasteless remarks about meat pies and bad teeth.”
You can knock the Brits about their bad teeth all you want, but meat pies are awesome. I really don’t understand why they never took off in the states.
Beeeer…and the prez. Great combination.
I personally lean toward Anchor Steam (try their Porter Ale for a stand-up bitter!) and Guiness. Not to forget the Stone people and their Arrogant Bastard Ale, and the inimitable Double Bastard Ale.
But the best beer I ever had was at the Red Lion in Glendale, CA, about 30 years ago. Some kind of ritterbrau on draft, absolutely the best. Guess I should try a return visit.
@Reynold> yep..those are the reactions I expected…
BTW, the last comment, by the user named April, is priceless. It has to be hard to fit that much abject stupidity into one comment.
@IST:
Got that right…it’s amazing how religion can ****up a person’s mind, eh?
April is ignorant as hell about her own country’s constitution and history but I wager no one on the RR thread will correct her. That’s the scary part.
Ha – that April!
She’s got her current location set to ‘planet earth’…
somehow… I doubt it :)
Egads! A President with a sense of history?! Be still my heart.
Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli: “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” Signed, sealed, delivered, June 7, 1797.
Raven – please don’t write uniformedareposts like that. Although you are very fucking broadly right, in a rather dull way about Turkish history, the truth is much more nuanced than you suppose. And modern Turkey is nothing the the modern US.
Come on then, Pharyngula expert, tell us about Turkey, and Attaturk, and entertain us with your knowledge!
Not your best post, Raven. Never mind – no one cares ;o
It’s funny that he mentions this idea of secularism in Turkey, considering that both entities (Turkey and the US) have been polled to have the highest religious belief in the industrialized world. One thing that pops up is the income inequality between the two nations. The gap between rich and poor is much higher than that of most of the industrialized world.
Now the flood gates are open for morons in this country to mention how we’re a judeo-christian nation, and morons in turkey to mention how islam plays a big role, and in application is a muslim nation.
One thing that bothers me, is the continued coddling of Turkey regarding the Armenian genocide. The modern Turkish government is built upon the ashes of all the Armenians that were brutally massacred, and are now actively trying to remain forgotten by the modern Turkish government. Perhaps they aren’t indirectly responsible, but they sure are enablers and apologists for genocidal maniacs. Which brings us to the Israeli lobby that supports Turkey, and actively seeks to prevent Armenian Genocide recognition, so that Turkey will maintain close geopolitical ties. Yet, isn’t humanitarian what we strive to improve on? This kind of hypocrisy does not go unnoticed. At some point in time, Turkey will have to come to terms with their past, and as for the apologists and deniers, since history is cyclical, perhaps one day your time will come and few will care.
The meltdown is fully liquid; the only question is whether the wingnut right wing will proceed to evaporate.
I’m looking forward to that. It should be sublime.
Ah, you guys…we have a local ice creamery that has weird flavors like sage and lager…now I have to try it and see if it’s what it’s cracked up to be.
And no-one’s heard of Naughty Nellie’s? It’s a lovely brew from the Pike Brewing Company. Crisp, smooth, very nice.
@abb3w:
Isn’t sublimation what happens when a solid goes directly to gas, instead of from liquid to gas?
(:P
that RR thread is painfully funny. they’re using the DATE on the consitution (year of our lord) as proof that the u.s. is a christian nation *epic facepalm*
Anthony, you are brilliant. You’ve identified your two main talents as drinking beer and playing with your penis. Keep on with the winning combo and we can assure you, no one will miss you or care. Sounds like you’ve had way too much beer already though, don’t even think about driving.
What is all this nay-saying about the War on Christmas!? I spent two years in the trenches at the north pole killin’ secular progressives and shittin’ freedom while Osama Hussein Obama was suckin’ at his mother’s teet in a terrorist camp somewhere, and this is the thanks I get!? What about all of the brave elves that died so that you folks can put up a nativity scene in a government building, and say “Merry Christmas” at Walmart!? What about all of the wounded and maimed – that fought under Santa Claus – who are now rotting in some veteran’s hospital while the Democrats take their guns and force their children to believe in the global warming and evolution conspiracies? Would a little, “thank you Mr. Veteran for fighting for my right to celebrate Christmas in this wonderful Christian nation of ours” be too much to ask!?
FierceGeekChick:
I agree that the Dogfish head 120 minute is to sweet (and expensive) for regular consumption but you have to love the fact that they don’t even put the alcohol content on the bottle. And the intensity of flavor covers up the fact that it’s halfway to being liquor. The 90 minute is near perfection as far as IPA’s go though…
Old Rasputin is my favorite beer as of late. Especially nitro.
Wowbagger and etc,
OK, in my defense, I’m going to say that that was back in my youth (early 1990’s) and I was drinking for volume then. All I remember is that I seemed to be able to drink stupid amounts of the stuff and not feel anything the next morning. Perhaps because it wasn’t actually beer? Lol!
Like I said, now I drink Anchor Steam and a couple local micro-brews. Perhaps my memories aren’t true…
AnthonyK #127
What is this a beer blog? Nobody gives a shit about your fringe wingnut opinions on beer. Next you’ll be shooting the next Irishman that says all British beer is piss and blaming it on the Pope.
That’s the trouble with you beer ideologs, its all burrrrrrp and barf, and bullshit.
This is a goddam science blog, take your drunken ramblings over to
“whatKindOfBlogIsThis.com and confuse them with politics or stamp collecting, or something.
@ Alverant
That’s why it’s good to live in WI =)
Great bit of news! I’ll have to share this with others.
Well, I haven’t melted yet. Maybe when I get put into one of those FEMA concentration camp in the hot summer.
If you don’t know what I am referring to, google FEMA camp Obama.
Fuck Ya, Derek! You’re a hero! A TRUE AMERICAN!
derrearender wrote:
Ok, we get. You don’t like Obama. Point made. What’s your views on beer?
Boy, the paranoia from the religious right is funny. Simply no brains that can be used to think logically.
derender, are you going to go and finish that discussion we were having on evolution in the Iowa thread?
What is all this nay-saying about the War on Science!? I spent two years in the trenches at the water of life on Mars killin’ Reublicans and shittin’ communism while Bush the fascist was suckin’ at his mother’s teet in a biology classroom somewhere, and this is the thanks I get!? What about all of the brave conservatives that died so that you folks can put up a statue of Darwin in a church parking lot and say “Evolution is real” at the Southern Baptist Convention!? What about all of the wounded and maimed – that fought under Darwin – who are now rotting in some veterniarian’s hospital while the Republicans take their hybrid cars and force their children to believe in the God and spirit conspiracies? Would a little, “thank you Mr. Darwin for fighting for my right to celebrate Winter Solstace in this wonderful Pagan nation of ours” be too much to ask!?
Derender, model paranoid of the religious
rightwrong.derender:
Um… What??
and Happy Monkey to you too. Who’s trying to take your Christmas, dearie?
I read through the RR Thread mentioned above, and found a big WTF? moment. It is regarding the constitution, where someone said:
Very good, and quite correct. The rebuttal:
This was met by an animated “laughing its arse off” smiley (the correct response in my opinion).
This is followed by several “What’s so funny” comments, then this gem:
Seriously? That’s it? That’s the big fucking proof?!?
I sometimes wish the rapture would come and take them…
It’s true, you know. Those three little words–“of our Lord”–at the tail-end of the Constitution make the USA an Officially Christian Nation. Hussein Obama knows this. Hence the FEMA boncentration bamps. Hope this helps.
“But anyone (like Christopher Hitchens) who starts to rail on about how we “need” to go in and fight some kind of “War on Islam” in other people’s countries deserves nothing less than a punch in the mouth and to be ignored.”
Punching Christopher in the mouth because in your opinion he’s too agressive…I dunno
Newfie :
Home owner’s associations, mayors, ACLU, and the like.
They are all Christmas haters. Grinches.
Are you a poe?
Bravo. Oh, congratulations. He ends the war on science, the one war were actually winning!
-John Oliver
Two? You flatter me. I do drink well, and my masturbation technique is almost universally satisfying however…
My point was precisely this – you know fuck all about Turkey, and your post was misinformed, and – worse – stupidly under-informed. The “truth” about Turkey, about which I am also ignorant – though clearly not to the extent that you are- is complex and difficult. Ataturk was a complex man, not a very “nice” man – if that matters, and the history of Turkey is far from the simple idea that you cut and paste from Wikipedia.
I didn’t ask you to restate your ignorant position, I simply asked you to understand that you – like me – are ignorant.
The history, and future, of Turkey, is fascinating. Let’s see what happens. It won’t be random that Obama spoke there first
And, personally, no hard feelings. If you find out that I’m wrong about something – please let me know. Now, find out about Turkey and educate me. If you can…..
And is therre not a Turkish pharygulite who can give both of us a verbal slap?
At least the war on the environment is still going well.
-recently spotted bumpersticker
Can you guys doing the RR thing, or generally the Xtian beat, please put more stuff on here? I love to listen to their anguish;)
I want to take my God pills and use my magic song brick too!
if he’s not, he should really watch National Geographic Channel on Friday
What is with it and the enviro nuts these days? Global warming is real, but not manmade. No amount of fake light bulbs and fake cars are going to do anything but mess up the light bulbs and cars.
Sure ice on the ploa caps are melting. Sure water is rising. Guess what? It happened before and it will happen again. it is a earth cycle. Back in the 1970s people were screaming about the coming ice age. Now we’re all gone fry to a crisp. Which one is it? Are we gonna burn or freeze? make up your mind people.
Volcanoes erupt and more carbon is spewed there than from man. whta are we gonna do? Plug up all of the volcanoes and ocean vents and tent the sky with solar tent?
This whole Al Gore (liar) green environment thing has been blown way out of proportion. The news media does a very good job of helping manufactured crisis along.
killfile, ENGAGE!
*facepalm*, the science didn’t support this notion then and it doesn’t now. Even when the media reported it, there was no science to support it. Yet AGW deniers keep using this as a trump card. It’s like saying “Ptolemy was the father of astronomer and he said that the earth was at the centre of the universe. Now scientists say that the earth is not even at the centre of this solar system. These scientists cannot make up their minds.”
More information comes in over time and hypothesises that better explain that new information are favoured over those that can’t. Even IF there was a push in the 70s that the earth would cool, it doesn’t mean that the current body of scientific knowledge in 2009 is wrong.
I see that our Freepland Cassandra is is raving again. Except that in the context of Greek mythology, Cassandra was right.
Oh sure, you’re all so tough criticizing American and Australian beers! I bet none of you have the guts to knock Taybeh!
#210 Derender (setting sail on the failboat)”
“I spent two years in the trenches at the water of life on Mars killin’ Reublicans and shittin’ communism while Bush the fascist was suckin’ at his mother’s teet in a biology classroom somewhere, and this is the thanks I get!?”
I am not sure if I have ever heard a libral making fun of Bush for spending too much time in biology class. If I were to do that one I probably would have went with something like “suckin’ at his mother’s teet at a KKK meeting.”
“What about all of the brave conservatives that died so that you folks can put up a statue of Darwin in a church parking lot and say “Evolution is real” at the Southern Baptist Convention!?”
Um… shouldn’t that be “brave liberals”?
Oh yes, Sven!
Reminds me of the Onion headline:
It’s about time I started going for the T-shirts.
Hmmm. “GOD IS A CUNT”
Or is that too strong for the office?
StealthDonkey @187
Is there a difference between a British meat pie and what’s called a pot pie in the US?
derender @217
I’m glad you brought that up. I need to remember to renew my ACLU memberhsip before I carpool with the mayor to our Homeowners Association meeting.
sorry ladies – not again – promise…but..never mind..
#233 Ciaphas:
“I’m glad you brought that up. I need to remember to renew my ACLU memberhsip before I carpool with the mayor to our Homeowners Association meeting.”
Where are they holding that meeting, by the way? Is it at the FEMA Death Camp For Republicans? Or is it at the Science Illuminati HQ?
#233
Mostly the pastry and the love of sticking vegetables in pot pies, I ended up eating Pot Pies last time I was in the US for a while but they have nothing on a good Mince & Cheese Pie. (I’m from NZ)
If derender is really lucky, he will on up at Darwin’s Plantation.
Sorry Patricia, the shit stain said you are worse than me. How could he say something so untrue?
“Back in the 1970s people were screaming about the coming ice age. Now we’re all gone fry to a crisp. Which one is it? Are we gonna burn or freeze? make up your mind people.”
LAME
Here, for your viewing pleasure.
Derek
It’s in the Commie Pinko Liberal Atheist University confrence room of course. They just remodeled it and it’s powered by enslaved christians on treadmills. Very enviromentally friendly.
I was on business travel in San Antonio and had Shiner Bock ice cream! I ordered it because it was too weird not to… but I was shocked by the fact that it was actually quite tasty.
I’ve forgotten the name of the ice cream bar, but it was locally famous, in part because of oddities like Shiner Bock ice cream, but mostly because the servers were cute girls who would, on request, get up and dance on the bar..
I’m not sure, but I think this has to be Amy’s, which had come to San Antonio after becoming locally famous in nearby Austin.
The reason I’m a little hesitant to name this as the place is that Amy’s opened in 1998, barely over a decade ago, and I’m not sure that matches with your timeline.
But I’m damned if I can think of any other place that could fit that description, and to have Shiner Bock ice cream…
Gotta be Amy’s.
I’ve seen JESUS IS A CUNT on a shirt worn by a goth chick before.
To rile up any freepers, let me just say that I think the RUSSKIE!-made Baltika #6 is the Tsar of beers. Absurdly powerful, dark porter which comes in an 11-time-zone-sized bottle.
(Maybe Helioprogenus should have some He’brew. It’s not the ‘chosen’ brew, but it’s not a huge conspiracy either.)
I’ve got nothing against meat pies as long as the meat in them is… y’know, meat. The goodness, OTOH, of steak-and-kidney pie is (IMHO, of course) directly proportional to the amount of steak and inversely proportional to the amount of kidney.
derender
My vote for kindergarden class clown!
CONGRATS!!
Aquaria:
Yep, somebody else said Amy’s as well, and I’m pretty sure that’s the place.
Matches my timeline perfectly: I spent huge chunks of 1998 in SA, working on a proposal to privatize portions of the engine overhaul work at the then-soon-to-be-closed Kelly AFB. I still have dreams about the tortilla soup and flour tortillas at the Alamo Cafe, not to mention a couple really great BBQ places whose names I no longer remember, and an all-night taco bar that saved me from post-overtime starvation on more than one occasion. And there was the dinner cruise our proposal manager treated the team to after we met a major milestone: For some reason, the waiters seemed to think they should fill our margarita glasses as if it were iced tea… and who were we to argue. My memories of some of that evening are a bit vague, but it was all good.
I saw a bumper sticker in Asheville NC a few months back
“Jesus is my copilot and were crusin’ for pussy”
Rev.BDC, KoT:
I hope the missing apostrophe (“…we‘re cruisin’ for pussy”) is your handiwork, and not original to the sticker; it’d be a shame if such a fine automotive statement of purpose were obfuscated.
;^)
yes that is classic KoT
too much whiskey and Parliament
Aqua Boogie
Derender is either a Poe, or just someone living under so many thick layers of delusion that it’s hard to feel anything but pity. The world is moving on without him, and in fact probably has been for many many years. I wish people would quit trying to engage him as if he had any good faith or intellectual honesty, and just go back to talking about beer while he has his wingnut meltdown.
Quote by Jadehawk– To: Obama
Read the Constitution!!!
They actually said this to an attorney whose specialty was—-the constitution? ‘heh, heh’ — snort—
those are the people who think it’s the rapture every time a train goes through town. what do you expect?
I still have dreams about the tortilla soup and flour tortillas at the Alamo Cafe
Alamo Cafe?
Seriously?
Tell me who sent you to that hellhole, so I can have ’em lynched. Places that make their own tortillas are everywhere in this town!
not to mention a couple really great BBQ places whose names I no longer remember
In town, it would have to be Bob’s. Out of town, it would have to be Rudy’s. Anyplace else, you were robbed.
and an all-night taco bar
If it’s fast food, there’s Las Palapas (conservatard religious loons), with awful food. If you were there on a Sunday, this isn’t the place.
Next would be Taco Cabana, which is what Taco Bell only wishes it could be. Not the greatest Tex-Mex, but not bad.
And there’s Chacho’s, a little higher quality than TC.
If it wasn’t fast food…
There’s Mi Tierra, but you wouldn’t have forgotten it. The bakery counter would stay in your mind forever.
Janine – Oh, cripes I’ve been in and out here on a chicken coop building project and I missed that shit for brains derear-ender saying I am worse than you.
Dammit! I SO hope he called me a vile, vulgar, viperous vixen…sigh, probably not.
and another RR gem:
Obama admits he is Muslim
I know I wrote this on another thread but here is the words straight from our commander in chiefs mouth.
I was watching BBC and caught the tail end of an interview where Obama was talking about the Muslim faith in America and he said “I know, because I am one”
the correct quote from the speech, in case you’re wondering, is:
“The United States has been enriched by Muslim Americans. Many other Americans have Muslims in their family, or have lived in a Muslim-majority country – I know, because I am one of them.”
yay! Quotemining for Jesus!
No. But you were called my bodyguard. Hours later, he spat out his judgment. Perhaps it was all of your respectful bible talk. Or perhaps because you are a hillbilly who does not agree with him? Not that it matters. But I did laugh and get jealous. Can I hire you?
Aquaria:
My turn to say “seriously?” Is there more than one Alamo Cafe, or has it changed hands since ’98? Because I’m quite sure the flour tortillas I had were fresh-made; there were those in our group who would go there for the tortillas alone, and not even bother to order a meal.
Pret’ sure one of the places I was thinking of was Rudy’s.
That’s the place, and your description is right on the nail. Judged against real restaurants, it was nothing, but judged against other fast food/casual places, it was great, and for the just-got-out-of-work-at-2:00am blues, it was perfect. And if the tacqueria I used to frequent back home — where I was often the only person not a working-class Mexican — is any gauge, Taco Cabana was pretty authentic, too.
I also used to pig out on Schlotzky’s sandwiches in SA. Pedestrian, I know, but they’re so much better than the standard Subway/Blimpies/Quiznos subs, and there was no Schlotzkys anywhere near my house back home. Funny the things you hang on to, no?
I got all the way to the bottom of the comments and realized that I must be the only Pharyngula reader in the home of the US microbrewing phenomenon, Portland.
So come to Portland. We have a whole chain of microbreweries — McMenamins — that are head and shoulders above what you get anyplace else in the States, and we Portlanders think that it’s pisswater (but ask for a Rubinator when you go). We have the New Old Lompoc. Bridgeport. Hopworks. Go up the Gorge to Full Sail. Deschutes is right over the mountain and is scrumptious. Rogue is 80 miles in the other direction.
I have nine different beers, from six different breweries, in my fridge, and a keg of homebrew on my porch. Seriously, it’s better here.
“Historical context for the Leland quote (heddle @26): Once upon a time the Baptists were the ones being oppressed.”
According to Bart Ehrman the early christians tried to sell the idea of an unreligious state to the Romans, that the state shouldn’t espouse any religion. After Constantine converted it didn’t come up again.
While I have generally been impressed with President Obama,
I have to admit that I was annoyed as a Dane with the deal he helped broker with the Turks so that they accepted the Danish Prime minister as Nato’s new secretary General. The by then former PM had to give what came way too close
to an apology for the Mohammed cartoons, in which he stressed how we must deebly respect religion. Furthermore he should start investigation into closing down a Kurdish tv station operating out of Copenhagen. This though will not happen as it stands now.
Of course the PM should have declined the position on these terms, but he did not. He lost all the respect that he built up during the crisis in my eyes. Good thing he was a former PM when he spoke.
Also Obama’s wish that Turkey some day join the European Union is not a wish many Europeans share.
Frankly I think it is none of his business.
Rasmus, secular and atheist freedom has suffered some severe losses, especially with that anti-blasphemy BS of the U.N. lately. That, in combination with what you’re saying, makes the meeting a lot more ominous, doesn’t it? Secular America, but with seething Christians + secular Turkey, but with seething Muslims (Harun Yahya anyone? The “believe in evolution” survey anyone?), happily making demands on actually secular Europe :-/
I’m glad the Kurdish station didn’t close. that would be just too fucking muck
Ciaphas at 233
From what I hear, Skanks is right. I think the main difference is the pastry.
Also being from New Zealand, I do love my meat pies. If you’ve never tried a lamb and mint pie, you haven’t truly lived.
Obama should not be pushing his hidden agenda by urging the EU to accept Turkey as a member. As long as almost every Turk reacts hysterically when the words Armenians and genocide are mentioned in the same sentence, and things like banning the website of Richard Dawkins can happen in Turkey, this country is not ready to join the EU. While Turkey may formally be a secular state, nobody can deny that a huge majority of its population is religious. This will inevitable influence the policies of their government.
The support for meat pies and IPA brings a tear to my eye. It is true … in England meat pies can vary from the frankly appalling to the sublime. So on that front let me call your US meat pies and raise you … a genuine Cornish pasty.
As for beer … on a seriously hot day there is something to be said for a seriously cold macrobrew. I like the odd Becks from time to time. But although we may be lacking massive scenery, oodles of space, Californian weather and other fripperies, we are spoiled for beer over here.
Visitors to our damp, sleaze-ridden land, try and find time to take the delightfully informal and exceedingly well-lubricated Friday evening tour of the Hogsback Brewery near Farnham in Surrey. It’s home to a range of very good bitter, including the all-conquering Hogsback TEA (Traditional English Ale).
It’s in the middle of nowhere (well, what counts as nowhere in SE England..), but you won’t regret it. Just make sure you take a taxi..
“We Hold These Truths to be Self Evident – that all Men are created ……. THIRSTY”.
I’d have to agree with #261.
I’d rather not have a country in the EU that has no freedom of speech, no recognition of human rights and all the other things that make Turkey a non-EU country.(Including genocide denial and murdering your own people, oh my mistake, obviously a Kurd isn’t a human being eh ?)
Mind you, Italy has been in the EU for ages and that is a fucked up country as well, sort of like Europe’s own banana theocracy/republic, with it’s own religious pestilence as well.
Maybe we should leave the EU and join our Scandinavian friends, which whom we have a shitload more in common with anyway :)
And on the subject of US beer:
American Beer is like making love in a canoe,
it’s fucking close to the water.
let me re-post my contribution to the RichardDawkins.net forum from last year, on the day Mustafa Kemal Ataturk died, for those who are interested in secular Turkey.
“The RichardDawkins.net webpage opens with a proud banner reading “Banned in Turkey.” For those not familiar with the issue, this is a preliminary result of a “libel” case opened by the Turkish Creationist Harun Yahya. The slow Turkish legal system is struggling with such cases involving internet, in a time when progressive Turks are fighting for freedom of speech on all media. We -as in progressive Turks- all hope this disgrace of a ruling will end soon.
What I wish with this post, is to introduce -and remind those who are aware- the ideas of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the founder of modern Turkey, who passed away 70 years ago today. After the war of independence against European forces who invaded Turkey after the world war, Kemal Atatürk started one of the most -perhaps the most- ambitious modernization projects in world history. In less than 10 years, the Ottoman regime, which was based on “Sharia” law and proclaimed to be the “caliph” of the Islamic world was gone. It was replaced by a secular system, in which women were given rights to vote, and participate in all walks of social life, in which education was science oriented, in which all sharia laws along with “madrassas” which harbored backward thinking and dogmatism were abandoned, to be replaced with modern laws, courthouses and universities.
After all, it is a shame that the progressive readers of Richard Dawkins remember Turkey with this ban, rather than the ideas with which the Republic of Turkey was founded. Ones that are reflected by the sentences of its founder:
-“I am not leaving a spiritual legacy of dogmas, unchangeable petrified directives. My spiritual legacy is science and reason.”
-“The most true guiding light in life is science”
http://www.ataturksociety.org/ataturk.html
is a good resource for those interested.”
Even though the first constitution drafted during the independence war was not secular, the constitution of 1926 removed all references to Islam in Turkey. There is a revival of political Islam, which started after the coup of 1980, as a result of the political vacuum left by banned left and right wing parties being filled by Islamists. The way the Islamists operate are very similar to the Christian fundamentalists in the states. The Turkish Anti-Evolution campaigner Harun Yahya -who is actually the leader of a religious sect known for recruiting failed fashion models and using them as sex toys- has good ties with the Discovery Institute.
The tragedy that the Armenian population went through in the course of the First World war pops up in every forum I post, whenever I say anything good about Turkey. So let me comment on this before angry answers come rushing.
Yes, millions of Armenians were deported from their homes, and died/killed on their way to Syria. This is a horrible incident, which I myself as a Turk, regret and ashamed of. There is a growing movement in Turkey, which confronts the official policy of refusal.
However terming this “genocide” is in my opinion is a bit far streched. Furthermore, it is a historical issue, and making laws on historical issues is as logical and rffective as making laws on biological issues. It should better be left to the professionals of the respective disciplines, with transparency to the public. Lastly,
As someone who lived in the States, and is living in Germany, let me make some comments on the beer thread. The commercial beers in the states is a joke, compared to beers in the old continent. The only good beer I had was in Colorado, from a micro-brewery.
So, you’re not a nation of Christians huh? Wow, that i going to be a huge shock to some people. :)
Excellent!
Thankyou – a Turkish contribution. Without trying to simply disagree (how could I) perhaps you could tell me what the real problem with “admitting” the genocide, or at least “acknowledging” it? As a visitor to Turkey last year I was struck by posters in English denying that anything had ever happened – official posters, it seemed.
I mean why not just say sorry and move on?
Britain apologized for slavery a short while ago, and I have to say it seemed remarkably painless!
And Ataturk is an interesting figure – a great man, but as one might expect flawed…
And someone said up-thread that Europeans didn’t want the Turks to join the EU, which is only partly true. The Brits have been broadly pro but other nations – such as Germany and, I think, France strongly against. The UK gets to be in favour of the Muslim country joining, without having to properly support it! And, as you say, Turkey does not seem to have full freedom of speech, especially where Armenians are concerned…
It is to me rather telling that Berlusconi is among the few leaders in the EU who agrees with Obama on the issue of Turkey joining the EU. It should be added that in this respect Obama is just continuing the policies of Bush and Clinton. No change there.
While there is an attempt by the USA and allies to tie Turkey to the EU as a buffer against the muslim middle east,which may sound very reasonable to some,the EU as a economical,social and cultural union has been stretched to the limit by the recent addition of former eastern block states already,and trying to add Turkey to the mix,whether its a secular,muslim or whatever country,is suicide from an economical and cultural point of view.
Lets be honest about the reasons why Turkey,a country with currently an Islamist government, is wanted as part of the EU,it is only as a buffer against the middle east,and its easy for Obama to support that,but for the EU countries,the matter is not so simple.
No we don’t. Both the “War on Poverty” and the “War on Drugs” long predate the Bush/Cheney era.
In Germany denying genocide (i.e. the Holocaust) is against the law, in Turkey admitting it is.
Tony Blair was in favour of Turkey joining the EU, but, as I said, this was a no-pain formulation. Current PM? Probably the same. It’s not accurate to say that all of Europe is against their accession (though no one seems very keen!)
I think it is inaccurate or, worse, not useful to call the current government “Islamist”
I note that Obama mentioned the Armenian bloodbath, but did not use the word “genocide”. The BBC claimed that he had not entirely avoided the subject but had referred to it while not using the “G” word.
clinteas @ 92,
Methinks that would more likely switch me off for the rest of the day. To switch me on I’d need like a double espresso ;-)
Of course O’bama says the US is a nation and that its citizens are “bound”, it is in his self interest that others think so. The next thing you know, he will be raising taxes, or imposing conscription or mandatory public “service”.
Biologically, “nations” don’t even rise to the level of spandrels, there is no “necessity” to them.
For beer fans in the UK, you may wish to have a look around here:
http://www.beersofeurope.co.uk
Not quite the same as drinking it from a pump, but a great way of sampling a variety of stuff!
LOL,Fernando Magyar,
we seem to have different definitions of “switched on” !!
I’m afraid that the more the E.U. keeps denying membership to Turkey, the more this country will sink into a nauseating mixture of religious and nationalistic xenophobia – a perfect self-fulfilling prophecy. The only long-term method to make Turkey “seriously” secular and democratic would be to admit it into the Union.
Except they are engaged in human rights abuses that would probably get an existing member of the EU ejected. To have automatic membership waiting for them if when they meet certain preconditions would seem to be the way to go.
No kidding on that one, Walton. Wasn’t the War on Poverty a 50’s-60’s issue? The War on Drugs was a 70’s-80’s issue. Doesn’t anyone remember the godawful Nancy Reagan slogan, “Just Say No”?
They must be getting lax in their hiring. Every Amy’s I’ve ever been at (usually the one on Westgate / Lamar), they always toss it.
Dammit, you’ve made me want Amy’s and it’s too cold lately.
Obama is the Artful Panderer.
Derender’s link @134 leads to the Times Watch article, but the interesting sidelight is the right column where products like this are advertised:
TASER® & Stun Guns Sale
For special St. Patrick’s Day deal use 15% Discount Code TFSP09.
http://www.taserforce.com
My brother, who lives in Alaska, said that as soon as it became apparent that Obama would be elected the stores were inundated with buyers of guns and ammo. The shelves were emptied. Wingnut meltdown was a boon for gun dealers.
@#133
“Only in the 80s did the microbreweries find an ever expanding niche market (not so much a niche anymore?) of people who could actually taste the difference between beer and Bud.
So, does that mean there was something wrong with our parents’ and grandparents’ tastebuds?”
With the resurgence of microbrews and craft beers, I’d say our tastebuds have evolved.
(See what I did there?)
Also, another vote for Newcastle Brown Ale here – yummy! If I can’t get that, the place I’m at had better have a suitable replacement, like Summit EPA, or they’ll have one pissed off atheist on their hands. (Like there are any other kinds?) ;-)
Admittedly it happened here in SC as well. The local large gun-shop said sales exploded during November.
AG, put the Sterno down. You’re not even coherent anymore.
Newky Brown is weird. It’s like beer, but cold.
To the Rev @284: My bro says that at the same time that guns were being bought Palin started inventing new government posts so she could give more jobs to her fellow wingnuts. Also, land managers and politicians involved in giving money to land managers stopped even pretending to take the relevant science into account when reviewing management plans.
Palin is creating her own kingdom.
Meanwhile, my Mormon neighbors are passing around email “newsletters” that say one can tell just by looking that Obama is influenced by Satan. His gestures give him away. You don’t even need “facts” like the birth certificate coverup and his Muslim background, just watch the man.
Bleh.
I would prefer a war on Scientology.
Lynna, I am curious. What are the visual cues that gives away Obama’s Satanic influences?
@#282,
Actually it is a good investment since the resale value on AK’s and SKS’s shot through the roof during the misnamed AWB of the 90’s. Pick some up now, it is not like they will spoil in a few years, and if new firearm laws come down then they have a nice investment that will pay off well. If no new laws then you can still resale them and have inflation protection as firearms hold their value well.
Guns? Now unlike beer, this is a product clearly superior in the US!
But tell me – what is the recommended level of firepower for a family in the US when a black president is elected?
No doubt a Libertarian will know ;O
Anybody else around here get off on lambics or barleywines? Sometimes you just need a beer made of hate.
My favorite swill is PBR, or Grain Belt.
Rogue is always, always excellent, and I’ve had a lot of luck with Breckenridge.
Drat it, I have to go to work & can’t read the whole the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been said.
Can we bomb us with that instead? It might help us forget the economy, & we’d have new clothes.
@#291,
See I am not so sure. I prefer firearms made in Germany and Austria and I know many that prefer Eastern Bloc for theirloose tollerences. There is even a YouTube video (look for AK on fire) that shows you can fire so many rounds through a full auto AK that the wooden grip will catch fire and it will still function. Don’t try anything like that with an M-4gery.
As to the recommended level of firepower, I would presume that would be one long rifle and or shotgun per member of the household plus one pistol per adult. I would avoid 10mm as they over penetrate but then I am old school. People buying 10 rifles at a time are doing so for resale later and not for personal use (generally speaking).
The best place to ask that question would be AR15.com. If you want to have fun go over to that board and ask which is a better rifle the AR-15 or the AK-47. Far worse than the arguments over PC vs Mac or XBox vs Playstation.
Thanks Ben. Sometimes you get a great answer to a silly question. One thing which I suspects supirzes Americans is that there no guns in Britain (apart from shotguns) – I’ve never even held a revolver! So all your names seem exotic to me…
Me. I love Barley wines.
I buy a couple cases of Bigfoot Ale every winter to store just so I can have them through the year.
In full disclosure (not sure why I need to but..) I am a gun owner and felt no need to go out and stock up.
Raised my freakflag for Bigfoot above. So, Rev, how ’bout that invitation over to your well-stocked place? (Even though I dislike your dog.)
If we’re talking real world, then the AK series is nice because you can pretty much pull them out of a mudpuddle and still put rounds on the objective. And if you end up having to scavange ammo (not really likely), then of course everyone and their brother carries shit that fires a 7.62, so it’s plentiful. But I still like the M4 as a primary weapon. Contrary to popular opinion, you can hit targets a long way out with a 5.56 if you know what you’re doing, and M4 mags are comparatively small, so you can carry a lot of them. Downrange–every cubic inch matters.
Any time.
My friend just handed me a ticket for Greensboro this Sunday to see the Dead. Told me I was required to go.
And you like my dog, you just don’t know it yet.
@#295,
I have a lot of friends in the UK (I am a Warhammer nerd strangely enough) and many of them have never had the chance to actually handle a firearm. They are not nearly as scary once you are comfortable with them. You have to respect them as any weapon but they are only as dangerous as you let them be. Speaking of “exotic” my dream weapon is the full auto P90. It is so sexy. It shoots a very rare caliber and has a clear magazine on top. Google it. That is some serious gun porn. =)
@#297,
I am sorry if I in any way implied that one should. I was just pointing out that there was a very good opportunity for income down the road.
@#299,
I agree that there are very good reasons for either the AK or AR. I just know that those “conversations” tend to get heated and it is always fun to have people discuss the merits of penetration or muzzle velocity.
AnthonyK –
Sweet monkey-spanking jebus but you are one fatuous twat.
Whilst handguns may be illegal, there are literally tons of them in use here. Never mind the roughly 20,000 crimes involving fire-arms per annum, spend an evening on the streets of Peckham or Manchester and watch the posturing and threats with guns that are hardly ever reported.
You’ve never held a revolver. Wow. I’ve never been to a greyhound track but it doesn’t negate dog racing.
And if you’ve never heard any of those gun names I can only guess you watch nothing but disney movies* and never get beyond page 3 in the papers.
Grah!
Time for a relaxing pint of Guinness. There is not SIWOTI, that’s how it’s meant to be.
*though obviously not Bambi.
another gun-free European. I’ve never even seen a bullet until I was 17. I also don’t think I’ve ever even held a gun in my hand.
on a hypocritical note though, I’m glad the boyfriend’s family has guns. it means deer and duck meat galore during hunting season, hehe
Nerd of Redhead @139 – Yes, Goose Island is great! Try the 312. I miss it so…
Our local dive bar in Tampa has started featuring Gordon Beirsch on tap. It’s bizarre. I love the stuff, but it’s pretty steeply priced compared to the usual fare. Normally, I’m not looking for fancy stuff when I’m at Skippers – just need to wash down the wings and the week.
I’m definitely looking forward to the raving responses of the Rush crowd on Prez Obama’s statements.
What a rare delight to hear the President of the United States plainly and simply declare that this nation has no official religion. His implication, much to the horror of the fundy crowd, is that US government neither defends nor supports any one faith over another. Wicked cool
I want to hear him say it some more.
Now, about the beer.
If you have an opportunity to visit the seacoast region of New Hampshire, be sure to stop at the Portsmouth Brewery. Pretty good food, a wide selection of brews and a gorgeous brewery behind glass adjacent to the dining area. And while you’re in the area do try a Smuttynose Ale.
Janine @289: As it was explained to me, it’s the way he mates one finger (or sometimes two fingers) with his thumb when he gestures forward from the chest to make a point. No, I don’t get it. I don’t think I want to. But I did get the impression that this was also an expression of elitism, which is also Satanic.
Then there’s the way he lifts his chin when he’s taking a moment to think. More Satanic elitism.
Same True Believing Mormon that judged Obama to be influenced by Satan on the basis of observed gestures and body language, also loved Einstein and thought he looked “kindly” (this when she was under the impression that Einstein was a True Believing Theist). When shown quotes from Einstein in context, the TBM changed her mind immediately, and without a hint of irony, said, “I think he looks sneaky.”
Thanks Lynna. That falls under the category of Funny/Scary. Funny if the person is powerless. Scary if they are in a position to act on it.
Has any one shown any of your neighbors The Shocker?
Apparently there is an ammunition shortage in America, in part due to the nutters who have all gone out to buy guns.
Ducky
Am outing myself as also a gun owner. More of a keepsake really, a pistol my father gave me. I did appreciate his gun-handling and gun-safety lessons he gave all his teenage children. Among these: Always assume a gun is loaded, even if you’ve checked. Never point a gun at a human being unless you intend to kill him/her.
He hunted to provide his family with meat during our poverty-stricken days in New Mexico, Idaho and Alaska.
I have a concealed-carry permit just because I don’t want to feel like I’m breaking the law if I carry the pistol under my jacket when I go out to kill paper-plate targets.
My father appreciated finely-machined German-made weaponry, and was also into the history of gun-making. I admit to a poetic affinity for gun-metal blue.
Janine, “the Shocker”…wha? I musta missed something.
Never been to a gun show, but the whole subject seems to just beg for Obsession.
Nice brewery/restaurant right on the Snake River in Idaho Falls. Darks and Pales and whatever else’s.
Haven’t noticed an ammo shortage in Idaho, but then it’s been awhile since I bought any. Takes me about three years to get through one box. Or maybe it’s a sign that Idaho is way overstocked with gun and ammo stores — enough to get us through Armageddon.
The Shocker.
I guess I’m a gun owner, too, on that score: I have the double-barreled shotgun my grandfather used (according to what he told me) to hunt squirrel for the family dinner table, in the woods that have since become part of Jacksonville, FL.
The gun itself is, AFAIK, not in working order (there’s a largish dent in one of the barrels), but I suppose I’m a gun owner in the strictest sense.
I’ve sometimes thought about taking it to a gunsmith to see if it could be made functional (and safe) without spending a huge amount, just because it’s a sentimental object and I hate owning machines that don’t work… but dog knows what I’d do with it if it could be fired: I don’t hunt myself, and I have no idea whether this gun would be suitable for trap or skeet shooting (I’m so clueless about guns that I don’t even know what gauge it is).
@314 — Oh, well crap, I didn’t know it had a name. I could demonstrate for the neighbors. This is such an educational blog site.
And some thought the subject of beer was derailing the blog.
Good beers that haven’t been mentioned:
New Belgium (they make Fat Tire and other delicious things)
The brewery that makes Spotted Cow
Summit, but only their seasonal beers. The standard beers kind of suck, IMO.
Great Lakes, which is sadly not available in my state.
I cannot say enough good things abuot Bells. I started drinking many of their varieties when I lived in Ohio, but since I moved back to MN I can’t find the Consecrator. Regional distribution can really
aratina @ 278 – The War of Poverty was one of LBJ’s programs, so mid sixties at the earliest.
As to the mystifying popularity of cheap swill in the US, I think it dates to much earlier than the 60s. For one thing, I read a lot of WWII-era advertisements for a research project in college, and the only type of beer ever advertised was domestic lager.
I have heard/read that the ultimate reason the US is so in thrall with crappy beer is Prohibition. The 18th amendment forced most US breweries out of business. Only the largest companies could afford to make 3.2 (“near beer”) and those were the only companies that survived. So when alcohol became legal again, that’s what we were all stuck with.
Several years ago I saw a neat segment of Antiques Roadshow that was devoted to pre-Prohibition memorabilia. Nearly every brewery they mentioned by name had been out of business since the 30s.
The business of judging Obama’s gestures as showing him to be influenced by Satan ties right into the longer post about emotion and reason. Now there’s a good example of “knowing” without engaging one’s powers of reason. Intellectual discernment should be coupled with emotion. It’s a balance issue. Moderation in all things, which you’d think would ring a bell in certain quarters. Don’t indulge emotion for the dubious pleasure of having someone(s) to hate or fear.
Did someone order the “two in the pink … ?”.
LOL. Too funny. Unintentional irony, gotta love it. Now this discussion is officially OT.
@264 Ahmet Toker,
I understand your reasons for doubting the massacres of Armenians as a Genocide, but if you look at the sheer facts objectively, it falls under the definition. Although it was not as well organized as the Nazi Holocaust, the fact that practically no Armenians live in Eastern Turkey, part of their ancestral homeland, attests to the systemic nature of the Genocide. Although there are Armenians in Istanbul today, as well as others scattered in Western Turkey, almost none exist in their ancestral lands.
Mind you, I am not holding modern Turks responsible for committing those acts, but for enabling a tragic segment of history to remain hidden and obscured. Acceptance is ultimately what we Armenians home to achieve. I know that some wish for financial retribution, and others geographic changes, but for us rational thinkers, our hope is that the death of our ancestors was not in vain. We helped build what you now call Turkey, and yet, in many ways, we’re the elephant in the room that cannot remain hidden. The graves, churches, and cultural exchanges over the course of hundreds of years of cohabitation cannot be easily expunged. Although the Armenian Genocide was effective in ultimately purging Turkey of its ancestral Armenian inhabitants, the memories still remain in our collective consciousness.
Further, although I know where my ancestors originated in Turkey, I will never know their geneology because it was completely annihilated during the massacres that you refuse to recognize as a Genocide. My grandparents with origins from Kayseri, Adana, Van, and Bitias (in the Musa Dagh area) never knew their grandparents because their parents were orphans. Yet, I do not hate Turks, because I know that there were many who housed Armenians during the genocide, even under threat of retribution and punishment. The fact that the Armenian Diaspora exists, has much to do with kind neighbors who helped prevent an even greater tragedy (where no Armenians would have survived the deportations, massacres, and forced labor).
Another argument that frequently comes up by Turks is that the reason Armenians were so harshly treated was they were viewed as collaborators with Russians and were willing to circumvent Turkish rule. The few that were active in that, were overshadowed by Armenians who were absolutely loyal to the end. That is ultimately another tragedy in the making. Armenians who couldn’t imagine the country that they lived in, deciding to massacre as many as possible.
Other arguments I’ve heard was that the massacres were mostly handled by Kurds, meaning the Turks were not culpable of the Genocide. Yet, the Young Turks did not commit genocide in absolute darkness. The orders were clear, the West knew what was happening, but they were unable to stop the events. Although roving bands of Kurds did cause much destruction, their actions were not done in the shadows.
Finally, there is a little known fact that most of the leaders of the Young Turks were in fact not Turks at all. They were in fact converted Jews, called Donmeh. Many of them originated in the area of Thessaloniki (Salonika) known as the Jewish Quarter. Their reasons for committing those atrocities were numerous, but it doesn’t take much thought to realize that with Armenians gone, someone had to take control of the Mercantile and Banking industries within Turkey. Well, who benefited most from the Armenian Genocide? In essence then, I do not hold modern Turks responsible for the Genocide committed by their ancestors. Yet, knowing that a tragedy so great, where a whole population was erased from their ancestral homeland, was committed on their soil, and continuing to deny the truth is just blind ignorance.
Lynna #313: “…maybe it’s a sign that Idaho is way overstocked with gun and ammo stores — enough to get us through Armageddon.”
I agree. Maybe even enough to push everybody right straight into it too.
Well, to contribute to the beer section of this thread:
Saw a beer I hadn’t tried before at the German deli today: Aventinus Wheat Doppelbock Ale. Very nice. Smooth and it went very well with some nice, very smoky Black Forest ham on fresh dark bread. And don’t get me started on the Tilsiter… I’ll save that for when a cheese thread erupts. Despite all of religion’s faults, I must admit I’m grateful to an awful lot of monks. Christianity’s greatest achievement may well be it’s contributions to the world of beer. ;)
Someone mentioned Baltika. I guess I’ll have to try that. There’s another deli I go to that has a lot of Russian, Baltic, and Polish stuff and I’ve seen it there. I normally go for a Lithuanian brand from there, but I’ll have to pick up a Baltika brew or two next time.
This isn’t supposed to be proactive. or nasty, but why so some people on Pharyngula own guns?
Why do you have such monstrous weapons in your house?
Fucking why?
Mistakes – but still fucking why? Bet PZ doesn’t….
Well, the wingnut meltdown has begun over on the Vermont thread. Is it safer over here?
Safe, cool and sorted. Miles Davis – Kind of Blue, none better. Unless, of coutse, you have a gun…
AnthonyK, there are long histories of hunting and self-defense here in the USA, and a lot of people own guns for one or both of those reasons.
…on account of it as the Jooz all along.
was.
Was the jooz.
OK, going to bed now.
@324 Helioprogenus:
So the Young Turks were really the Old Jews? Hmm, sounds logical. Great argument to gain sympathy for your cause.
I’m not sure that hunting is a good reason to keep a gun, and as I understand it you are less rather than more safe if you have one in the house. I iamagine that the real reason anyone here would own a gun is simply that they want to – and that’s just a desire I don’t understand.
Anthony, I like to gather my own food from the wild when I can. I own fishing equipment, knives, scissors and a trowel (for plant gathering), a shotgun for grouse, and a rifle for deer. I regard these things as tools (for killing) and treat them as such, except that the guns are in a gun safe.
I admit. There is little rational reason for me to own a gun other than I want to and I enjoy occasionally taking it out to my friends land and shooting. I don’t have any real belief that I would or could use it to protect my wife or property (though I have been trained in its use). I know the risks. And I still own one.
I’m not a gun nut. I don’t have gun fantasies. I don’t read gun magazines or belong to the NRA. But I do own a Glock 23.
I don’t have kids so I’m not worried about the horrible accidents you hear about involving kids and the gun is locked up when I’m not using it.
Yes there is no real reason other than recreation and a (probably worthless) feeling of security for owning one. Yes there are risks and I understand that but I believe I’m minimized them as much as is possible besides getting rid of it. My wife knows where it is and how to use it as well.
I’ve climbed big walls in the South West where I’ve nearly died, I’ve skied avalanche prone chutes in the Tetons, I’ve ice climbed in terrible conditions, I’ve done thing to and put thing in my body that are inherently risky. Owning a gun for essentially the same reason, recreation, admittedly does not “feel” nearly as risky because of the precautions I take.
But again, and I’m sure people will tell me how it is impossible it is to be this, I consider myself a responsible gun owner.
So I admit. I have a bit of irrationality.
flame on.
I have no closets, so I must admit that I am a gay atheist pistol owner. I go regularly to to the firing range to maintain my skills and maintain it under lock and key when not in my hands.
We will burn together when they come for us, Chimp.
yeah we’re hated on both sides.
I have no problem with gun owners per se. As long as they follow range rules, and are properly trained, everything is fine. And, like our responsible owners above, keep the gun locked up when not in use.
My problem is with the idiots who say keep a loaded gun in the nightstand by the bed 24/7/365, especially if children are in the house. Totally irresponsible.
I wonder where I fall on the hated scale. I don’t own a weapon, but I spend time putting rounds downrange with a government-owned M4.
Thank you. I have an honours degree in fatuity from Twat University, and as you can understand this was not easy come by! Where did you study;p
I remain baffled by the American love affair with guns, which goes far beyond mere utility to the point where it is clearly a national problem. Here in the UK a few crimanals have them, a few police, and a few hunters – but there are no legal revolvers or rifles, to the extent that British Olymic shooters had to train abroad (I think). So while they seem almost omni-present in the US they are effectively non-existent here.
I’m not really anti-hunting either, although I was always repulsed by the tradional Country House game massacre as I suspected that many of the participants would happily shoot people, if they could. And our continental cousins slaughter songbirds in their millions for their pleasure.
And I do apologise to psyclist if my views are not to his liking – I do give you, and anyone else, full permission to ignore them completely (though I could say that if you’re trying for a take-down, that was mediocre). But I have found out something more about gun culture in the US, simply because some people here are talking about it. Which satisfies me and hurts no one.
The part about this that makes me sad is that my dad (life-long atheist) is no longer alive to bask in having Obama as a president.
Nobody euphemizes like military euphemizers.
And the sad thing is I didn’t even see it…
@Drosera,
You may not believe it, but it is what it is. I’m not saying all the Young Turks, but a significant proportion where Donmeh. Some of them had converted from Christianity, while other’s from Judaism. If you look through Greek Government records of their origins, you’ll find more information than you care to see. The problem in this instance is the revelation that maybe there’s more information than some people can deal with. This isn’t some wingnut conspiracy, but based on actual family records. Unlike Armenians, who have very little information they can trace back thanks to the Genocide, many of the Turkish leaders, Young Turks included have origins that aren’t exactly mysteries. Ataturk himself was Donmeh from his mother’s side. Now, don’t misappropriate what I said and assume that by Donmeh, I mean his origins are Jewish. I don’t know what the shock is regarding the background of these individuals. If you look at the average Turk, although linguistically you can link them to Central Asia, very few actually have neither the genotype, nor the phenotype to link them to that region. Turks are mostly a conglomerate of the people of Anatolia, regardless of origin. It just happens that some conversions took place closer to our modern era, whilst others happened hundreds of years prior. Looking at the Y-chromosome haplotypes, most are indicators of Anatolian origin. What this indicates is cultural dominance, and linguistic shifts to the indigenous people of Asia Minor. My point being that Armenian history is as much a part of Modern Turkey as Greek, Cappadocian, Pontic, Hittite, Phrygian, Luwian, etc.
@Helioprogenus,
You can try to wriggle your way out of it, but in the final paragraph of your first post you clearly seemed to imply that the Armenians were murdered because Greek Jews were after their jobs in the trade and banking sectors. The problem with people like you, it seems to me, and in general with people in most countries in the Middle East and Africa, is that you judge others by their ancestry, not by who they are as a person. In a civilized society it should not matter if someone’s grandparents were Jews, Armenians, Hittites, Kurds, Indians, Papuas, Phrygians, Hutus, Tutsis or Pharyngulites.
You know I have not fired a weapon in years. I just know a lot about firearms. I was a Navy SEAL for 8 1/2 and only left because my injuries in Afghanistan were such that I was discharged.
I don’t understand the fear of firearms. Sure people die because people are stupid with firearms but a lot more peolpe die because people are stupid with autos. There are about the same number of both so it is not like comparing them to pools which also kill more or comparing them to high school football which kills more high school age students.
Firearms are unique I suppose in that you can’t pretend it is not perfect for killing. There is a lot of development that goes into weapon design. I can just appreciate that even if I have not pulled a trigger since returning to the United States.
@Drosera,
I stand by what I said. I’m not condemning all Jews just because some Donmeh instigated the harshest years of the Genocide. The sheer fact is what they themselves were thinking. They felt the need to push Armenians out so they can control the financial and mercantile areas of Turkish government. That is simply stating the truth of the matter. When it comes to the Young Turks, don’t take my word for it. Why don’t you go research it thoroughly yourself, without clouded and biased interpretation.
Ben,
Though I strongly disagree with the missions the US Govt has generally tasked the armed forces for in the last eight years (less so Afghanistan than Iraq) I want to thank you for your service. I also hope you haven’t suffered the injustices that other wounded service personnel have endured.
I’m pretty “Liberal” and in favor of many restrictions on guns here in the US, though not necessarily an out-and-out ban on all. Still I will admit there is a bit of hysteria on my side of the aisle.
Just keep in mind that the guys in uniform never get to pick where they serve. I went to lots of garden spots that I never would have picked. I don’t know if I had injustices but I was in Bethesda back before they cleaned up (thanks to Walter Reed) and I did have to wait for over a year for the VA to figure out I was out. Such is life.
As far as firearms, if it were not for hysteria then it wouldn’t be as much fun to talk about. =)
Hey Ben, what team were you on?
I’m glad you raised that point. It’s one I often make; not usually in relation to firearms, but rather toward the other ways people die that Americans tend to get all fired up about. The numbers are actually rather staggering. In 2007, more than 1000 people apparently died on the highways of Illinois alone:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/08/illinois-traffic-deaths-d_n_124948.html
Jon Stewart Nails it again…
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=223862&title=baracknophobia-obey
@ Josh,
My first tour was Team 8 and my second and part of third was SDV Team 1.
Ben:
Ben, you sound very reasonable about all this, but I have to tell you: that particular stat is an egregious distortion of the truth, and a typical example of the kind of dishonesty the gun lobby is apt to cough up. The relevant fact is this: High school football is responsible for more deaths than are guns on school grounds or during school-related activities. The truth they’re trying to conceal is that many more school-age children die from gunshot wounds that die from football.
But who cares about dead kids when there’s a political agenda to promote, eh?
Please understand that I’m not leveling this, err, rhetorical gun at you. You’re just repeating something you read. (Funny how misinformation propagates like wildfire bunnies on the internet.) The problem is with the source. Somebody lied with statistics. It’s a hard one to spot unless you’ve done the work tracking it down, and I have. Sorry, no cites. This is from (recent) memory, and I’m short on time.
Yup, the gun-control lobby screws around with stats, too, so when one of those distortions comes up, we’ll stomp on it together. Okay?
Last year (he’s since changed units), we had a guy on my team (Army: I’m in a Guard combat unit within USASOC) who had spent some time on Team 8.
I wrote:
Of course I meant “more die from gunshot wounds than die from football.”
Another thing I just remembered about this claim. The stats are taken from an unspecified “recent three-year period,” so it’s likely that the distortion is compounded not only by the omission of critical information about what is being claimed, but also by the use of cherry-picked stats coming from a narrow time period during which the number of school shootings was high and football deaths were not. I admit I’m speculating – necessarily, because the time period in question was not specified – but given the blatant distortion inherent in what they DID say, I have to wonder what else is hidden behind the vagueness about where the numbers came from in the first place.
I looked and could find no evidence of all of these high school kids being shot at home that outnumber the kids that die each year in football but if you say that is true then I will take it at face value.
I took peverse joy in that being post 357 btw. =)
@Josh,
Do you know when he was there? I worked with guys from 5th Group and 20th Group as well. Small world (or at least a small community).
Ben:
No evidence? You didn’t look very hard. (And did I say anything about being shot “at home”? No.)
By the way, in my haste I wrote this backwards:
I hope it was obvious that I meant “the number of school shootings was low…”
Ok, the following numbers are according to the Children’s Defense Fund, using data from the CDC and JAMA. Note that the fatalities include murders, suicides, and accidental deaths by gunfire.
In 2008, 3,006 children and teenagers were killed by gunfire.
In 2004, 2,825 children and teens lost their lives to gunshot wounds. Fifty-eight of them were preschoolers. That is one more than the total number of law enforcement officers who were killed in the line of duty that same year.
In 1994, nearly 5500 children were gunned down. That is nearly 15 per day.
Since 1979, 104,419 children and teens have lost their lives to the misuse of firearms. That is nearly ten per day, every day, for thirty consecutive years. That is more than the number of American casualties sustained in the Korean, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq wars combined.
Are you beginning to get the picture?
But wait, there’s more. According to JAMA, the cost of a single year’s worth of non-lethal gunshot wounds to children and teens adds up to $2.3 billion in lifetime medical costs, half of which is paid for by the American taxpayer.
According to an article published in The Seattle Times in 2004, since 2000 there had been 22 known deaths directly related to football injuries. That’s at all levels, not just high school.
According to everything2.com, “Fifteen high school football players died during regular season and playoff games in 1999, according to the National Federation of State High School Associations.” [Note: I couldn’t find the relevant info on the NFSHSA site, but I’ll take everything2’s word for it, even though they’re making the same blatantly dishonest comparison between football and at-school shooting statistics.]
According to the book The Heads-Up on Sports Concussion, by Gary S. Solomon, Karen M. Johnston, Mark R. Lovell:
If we use these figures to calculate a ballpark estimate on the number of football-related deaths from 1979 until the present, we get about 168 football-related deaths over the past 30 years – and that’s at all levels of football, not just high school.
Contrast 168 football deaths with 104,419 gun deaths.
And yet, the contemptible pricks at pro-gun sites like gunowners.org promote the claim that “high school football is more lethal to our children than guns” as a fact, and the readers believe what they want to believe, take it on faith, and spread this “fact” all over the internet.
What they have actually done is to dismiss and dishonor the deaths of many tens of thousands of American children, and have trivialized the misery and grief of the bereaved. They have discarded truth for lies in pursuit of their self-serving, conscienceless agenda. If you ever wonder why the gun lobby and its supporters are sometimes perceived as a bunch of selfish, bloodthirsty yahoos who care more for their deadly playthings than they do for the lives of their neighbors and their neighbors’ children, this example of rank dishonest might be one reason why.
(Please note that, in my last sentence above, I am describing a perception, not offering my own hard opinion of the gun lobby. While I hold the propaganda techniques of the likes of gunowners.org in utter contempt, the gun owners I know personally are, without exception, highly responsible and ethical persons I am proud to call friends. I don’t care much for guns myself, but that’s beside the point.)
Holy fucking shit. That’s insane, literally fucking insane.
And yet the reality of those numbers don’t seem to sink in to some people; hence the argument that goes something like ‘Yeah, but if those kids had had guns of their own to protect themselves with, how many do you think would have died?’
@Helioprogenus,
Thanks for yet another demonstration of the evils of religion.
A few years back. He was with us from, I think 06, until he left last summer (he and Selection didn’t end up getting along). And, if I recall correctly, he had a short break in service before that…so maybe he left Team 8 around…04?
Indeed. Very small…
@Josh,
I was with Team 8 back in the nineties. One day maybe we can swap war stories.
@Wowbagger,
My experience is most respond with, “Why wasn’t the child taught not to play with weapons?” which is also in error as we don’t know how many of those listed were suicides, victims of crimes, or innocent bystanders struck by stray rounds in addition to children that were handling weapons on their own.
@Kseniya,
I couldn’t find numbers from sources that were not from biased sources either way. That is why I said, if you say it I will take your word for it because the ones I found without agendas didn’t break out firearms from other accidents except for MVA.
I’d enjoy that very much. Bring your coin.
Ben, are you saying the CDF is a biased source with an agenda? Do you doubt the integrity of their use of the numbers from the CDC? Frankly, I think it’s a valid question. I’d like to see the primary source. I would accept the CDC numbers as unbiased.
Actually, we do know this. Very few are accidents. Homicides and suicides comprise a vast proportion of the total.
I cranked out some numbers using the search tool found here:
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
Mortality
Firearm
1999 – 2005, United States
All Races, Both Sexes, Ages 0 to 19
The number of deaths per year for this age group over this date range is 2997.86, which is about 10% lower than the rate suggested by the 30-year totals posted by Kseniya last night. The total for the years 1981-1998 is 76,617 deaths, which bring the grand total up to 97,602, an average 3,904.08 per year. If we use this average to extrapolate numbers for the years 1979-1980 and 2006-2008, we get an additional 19,520 deaths, for a 30-year total of 117,122, which is about 12% higher than the raw total Kseniya posted. This discrepancy can probably be attributed to the fact that I’m using 19, not 17, as the upper limit of my date range. Ooops.
Either way, it appears that the CDF reports are accurate.
@Drosera,
The evils of religion is specifically one of the reasons that I chose to become an atheist. Looking back at the history of my people, at some point in time, Armenian Christianity was one of the factors that helped preserve the national identity of Armenians. However, now that we’ve gone past the middle ages, and actually have the scientific method in our hands, we can discard those artifices of cultural preservation. What’s important is the language, and customs, as well as the superficial cultural trappings. I suppose culturally, I am Armenian orthodox. Only as far as recognizing the elements that helped usher in the modern synthesis. Armenians preserved their cultural identity during the Soviet purges of religion, and came out stronger as a nation. They didn’t have the divisive role in having the various factions preventing unity. Ultimately, it’s possible that even nationalism is a holdout of the past, and the inevitable future is global intermixing. In essence, assimilation into a global community is possibly inevitable, but, I suppose some irrational habits, such as nationalistic tendencies, and the pride in a history that stretches three thousand years clouds my rational judgment. Yet, nationalism is not religion. In my case, it doesn’t lead to xenophobia, but pride, and a hope for maintaining an identity in the growing heterogenous world. To me, the religious aspect is similar to how we view ancient practices like mummifying the dead. It was fun at one time, and definitely part of the culture, but there’s no modern need in its application.
I’ll regret this probably but…
Yes those numbers are horrible but one has to wonder how many of those homicides and suicides would have happened with some other method if firearms were not available?
Wowbagger:
Yup. “An armed kindergarten is a polite kindergarten.”
A more common counter-“argument” is the automobile fatality death-count argument. Yes, more people die on the highways, but it conveniently overlooks the fact that cars aren’t primarily designed to “put rounds downfield.” Nor are they coveted for their “stopping power”. (Ok, ok – cars equipped with ABS systems are. Snark averted.)
This doesn’t mean that the automobile argument is completely with out merit, because more people die on the highway each year than die from gun-related incidents.
Adjusting for the number of cars (about 240 million) and the number of privately-owned handguns (about 200 million) we see that there are approximately 0.0001725 deaths per gun, but 0.0001819 deaths per car – so guns are a bit safer (about “five percent safer,” whatever that means) on a per-unit basis.
What I think it this means is that the typical gun owner is a bit more careful than the typical driver. Regardless, there are still tens of thousands of people dying each year, on the highways, in their homes, or on the streets.
Apparently, cars are even more dangerous than guns where children are concerned. According to the CDC report page I referenced above, the totals returned by searches on the 0-19 age group for the years 1981-2005 reveal 221,422 automobile-related deaths versus 97,602 gun-related deaths, which make cars 127% more dangerous (105%, adjusted) to children. Scary.
We still have a gun problem to deal with, however. I’m not sure how to go about minimizing the likelihood of shooting sprees without gutting the 2nd Amendment, but I like to think that a solution can be devised.
No need for regrets, Rev. That’s a valid question. I don’t know how to answer it any more definitively than this: “Some of them.”
The suicides of people I’ve known personally have been by various methods. One closed himself up in the garage and sat in a running car. One jumped off a high place. One shot himself. This proves only that there’s more than one way of doing oneself in. Wiki reports that 52% of all suicides in the US are committed with guns. Make of that what you will. Would the suicide rate drop if guns vanished from the face of the earth? Perhaps.
Murder and mayhem are as old as humanity. Guns bring a tremendous amount of lethal potential into the picture, with the added “advantage” of not requiring the killer to get his hands dirty. A great many homicides (over 50% of the total) are committed with handguns. If handguns (not all guns, just handguns) were to vanish from the face of the earth tomorrow, some of the slack would be taken up by other weapons, surely – but does anyone really doubt that the overall homicide rate would drop in a statistically significant way?
Double-oops. That should be “age range.”
I should also mention that don’t know if the age cutoff used to arrive at the numbers used by the CDF was 17 or 18.
Another way to “adjust” these figures is to account for time of exposure. Americans spend billions of person-hours each week exposed to the dangers of the automobile. I can only guess at what the equivalent number is for exposure to guns, but unless the average gun owner spends more than 18 hours a week using a gun, I think a safe guess would be a much smaller number, small enough to shift the balance well towards a conclusion that guns, on an per-hours-of-exposure basis, are much more dangerous than cars.
FOR PRETRIB RAPTURE REPEATERS
Congratulations! You are now fulfilling the Bible which says “Come now, and let us repeat together.”
Be sure to repeat what Walvoord, Lindsey, LaHaye, Ice etc. repeat what their own teachers repeat what their own teachers repeat etc. etc. etc.!
Repeat that Christ’s return is imminent because we’re told to “watch” (Matt. 24, 25) for it. So is the “day of God” (II Pet. 3:12) – which you admit is at least 1000 years ahead – also imminent because we’re told to be “looking for” it?
Also repeat the pretrib myths about the “Jewish wedding stages” and “Jewish feasts” (where’s your “church/Israel dichotomy” now?) even though Christ and Paul knew nothing about a “pretrib stage” and neither did any official theological creed or organized church before 1830!
You should read “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site to find out why you shouldn’t repeat everything your pretrib teachers repeat.
Do I have to repeat this?