I’m getting a big surge in requests to pharyngulate this poll, Should the motto “In God We Trust” be removed from U.S. currency?. Stop, please. That poll is already blown to smithereens; just look at the numbers. Almost 11 million votes. The results are hacked, oversubscribed, and the product of massive flooding. When you see something like that, there’s no point in asking me to swamp the poll, because it’s done gone and sunk already, and is plummeting to depths that will make the Marianas Trench sigh with envy.
I like my polls fresh and tangy, ripe with stupidity. This one ain’t, although the stupidity is reekingly high, I will admit.
So you’re saying you like polls to present a Challene[r Deep]?
Only 11 million? That seems paltry. Surely we can do better than that.
JC
Uh, that would be Challenge[r Deep]. Not Challene.
Epic Fail. :(
Going about it the wrong way. You need a group pushing for Allah Akbar on the currency.
That meanie PZ never lets us have any fun.
This one’s only had hundreds of thousands of votes.
Oh – and as an adside, I spent 15 months on Guam in my youth. It was kind of fun to stand on top of Mt Lamlam and know that – measured from the bottom of the trench, I was on the highest place on Earth.
Yeah – I know they say that about Hawaii as well, but it seems that, measured from the bottom, Mauna Kea is “only” 33,476 ft while Lamlam is about 37,000 ft. Never understood why they keep saying Mauna Kea is the tallest on Earth measured from the bottom.
Maybe I am missing something. That was rhetorical, I obviously am.
JC
Ugh, the article Cat’s Staff linked to made my brain bleed. I wonder if the bible-thumping African Americans angered by Obama’s inclusion of non-Christians in his America ever stopped to consider that the percentage of non-believers, as identified in the census, is greater than the percentage of African Americans as measured by the same.
How does PZ know the poll has been hacked?
Well, at least they have an explanation of what the difference is between an online survey and a valid poll is – and linked from that very survey, no less. It’s almost like they disclaim the beliefs of wackaloons in advance.
“Historic significance,” indeed. I suppose all those idiots who voted “no” failed their history classes, then. Right?
Winners Smoke Weed.
http://thetimchannel.com/?p=378
Enjoy.
I would actually push to have “We Are Gay” put onto currency. Much like “In God We Trust”, it doesn’t apply to everyone.
And why would PZ assume this poll is “oversubscribed” or “massively flooded”? It seems perfectly in line with a 2003 Gallup poll where 90 percent of Americans supported the phrase on U.S. currency.
Instead of crashing a useless poll to remove “In God We Trust” from the currency, how about expressing yourself with tasteless commercialization instead? [append smarmy salesman grin]
Generally it’s the total number of responses, chunkdz, not the distribution.
I don’t see a real problem with “In God we trust” on the currency. Surely there are more pressing matters at hand?
That poll is definitely deceased!
Like the more pressing matter of people who post on a blog to express that we should be focusing on more pressing matters?
Brownian –
So when PZ says the poll is “hacked, oversubscribed, and massively flooded” he is merely saying that he doesn’t have enough influence to alter the poll’s results?
Notwithstanding that complaint is often used to silence critics (“Hey, what’s the harm, besides there’re starving children in Africa/starving children in Canada/starving children in Alberta/starving children in Edmonton”, the latter often used to minimalise the former), I’m sure there are, given a certain definition of ‘more pressing’. As isn’t it the very definition of ‘more pressing’ that divide theists and atheists, theists from theists, and atheists from atheists?
Maybe, although given PZ’s stated reasons for encouraging poll-crashing, I’d say he’s more likely suggesting the job of making the results obviously meaningless has already been completed.
Well, I don’t see a problem with “In gold we trust” in our currency.
I wish they had added in a third option:
Should the motto “In God We Trust” be removed from U.S. currency?
1.) Yes. It’s a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.
2.) No. The motto has historical and patriotic significance, and does nothing to establish a state religion.
3.) No. The motto accurately reflects our country’s dedication to God, whose existence is an established fact. Atheists are not true citizens, and if they don’t like it, they can found their own country.
Let’s narrow in on this “ceremonial deism” malarkey which is really only used to pass this stuff through the courts. Given an honest choice, how many would pick #3 over #2?
“Surely there are more pressing matters…” If we were a group of people gathered together in realtime, then it would be important to prioritize. Since we are here to read and possibly respond to this post on that topic, then no — it is Item #1 on the agenda.
“…he is merely saying that he doesn’t have enough influence to alter the poll’s results…”: While PZ’s lack of influence is likely an issue, I think it has more to do with the question of how 11 million people happened to vote on a single poll on MSNBC, in a fairly short span of time. It seems very likely that many of those votes are bots or otherwise represent the opinion of a much smaller number of actual people.
When I voted (back in early December, iirc), there were already some 120k counted…it was already, for all intents and purposes, ‘freeped’…
Should the motto “In God We Trust” be removed from U.S. currency?
1.) Yes. It’s a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.
2.) No. It is a good thing for a globe-spanning military empire to announce on its currency a pledge of faith in an imaginary–but nevertheless fiercely exclusionary–being while protesting and pretending NOT to have a state religion.
Brownian,
Since this poll more or less concurs with the results of other more professional polls, isn’t it more likely that it is PZ Myers is simply frustrated at his impotence to damage this poll?
JackC,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topographic_prominence#Wet_prominence_and_dry_prominence
Max #16 wrote:
The courts may claim that the National Motto is simply ceremonial, but in Real Life people use it — and the fact that the Pledge of Allegiance says that we are “Under God” — as an easy justification for every nasty, narrow, petty, unnerving, and blatant attempt to violate the separation of church and state. How could they not? It’s obvious to a six year old that acknowledgment and recognition of God is basic to patriotism. It’s built into the freakin’ motto for crying out loud. The motto that’s supposed to unite us as one citizenry under a belief that’s as broad as our country.
And that’s not love of liberty, or respect for the constitution. No. It’s belief in God.
They bring it up. Every. Single. Time.
PZ’s minions are growing larger by the day. Today, we overwhelm the Oklahoma Daily Gazette and the Swamptown Mississippi Journal, tomorrow ABC News. Be afraid. We are not anonymous. We are legion.
Enjoy.
Hi Woozle,
The poll has been active since November 2005 – plenty of time to accumulate millions of votes.
And the poll results seems to be in line with other polls. So I’m wondering why PZ would now attempt to discredit the results as “hacked”.
This poll is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet it’s maker! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it
rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch it’d be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now ‘istory! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-POLL!!
For fuck’s sake Chunkdz, why don’t you just grow a pair and come out say that you think PZ is whining because he couldn’t sway the results the way he wanted? I mean, four fucking posts just to sleaze your way to the conclusion you could’ve honestly stated in your first comment and then dealt with the responses in a summary fashion….
Chunkdz,
Actually given that the comments section only has 6000 posts in that same time period suggests that it is, indeed, a rather discredited poll. Over 10 million voted, but only 6,000 shared comments about the poll? Sorry, no, that is highly unlikely. Also, the results according to Snopes.com went from 7 million to 10 million in five months and that’s after gaining only 27,000 votes in the first year it was up. Now to make this worse, assuming that Scopes numbers are correct,
From August 2008 until Today, 3,691,725 votes were cast, that’s quite impressive, 34% of all of the votes were cast in the final 5 months of the poll. To make it even more “impressive:”
The poll, according to Scopes, was 78% in favor, 22% against in August. Currently it sits at 84% in favor, 16% against. That means, of the final 3,691,725 votes, 3,524,313 were “yes” votes, that’s 95.5% of the vote in a 5 month stretch, representing more than 1/3 of the total vote were yes votes.
Sorry, anyone who looks at polls can see that this one has been assaulted.
In 1954 “under God”, a divisive test of loyalty, was added to what had been an inclusive pledge of alligiance. The pledge had been, in fact, originally intended to be used by all nationalities to express love for their own country. In 1956 the de facto motto of the United States, e pluribus unum (out of many, one) was officially replaced by “In God we trust”, another religiously oriented, exclusive, and divisive motto. This lends credence to the Fundamentalist belief that we non-theists are lesser citizens, if citizens at all.
Jeez, if chuckdz hadn’t wasted all of his time weaseling, he’d still have some to respond to dogmeatib’s post.
Hi Dogmeatjb,
And given that the Gallup Poll recorded 90 percent ‘in favor’, this poll is actually approaching the same result.
How can a poll be “hacked, assaulted, flooded, oversubscribed” and still be so fairly accurate?
Yes, and this is a blatant example of them trying to have their cake and eat it with ice cream.
If the court was right, then every time this comes up, throw the court decision back in their face:
http://supreme.justia.com/us/465/668/case.html
Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668
I would suggest that such practices as the designation of “In God We Trust” as our national motto, or the references to God contained in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag can best be understood, in Dean Rostow’s apt phrase, as a form a “ceremonial deism,” [Footnote 2/24] protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.
The words they insist exist as something defining the “Christianness” of the USA were declared by the U. S. Supreme Court to mean nothing religious whatsoever.
And if they do so define the “Christianness” of the USA, then they don’t belong on the currency!
Another point worth throwing at them: That same money, with God’s name and that declaration of “trust” on it, is used for every sort of immoral and illegal transaction there is. It’s been used to pay for drugs, for porn, for stripper tips, for prostitutes, for male prostitutes, for child sex, for every other sort of illegal sex that they find disgusting, for illegal weapons, for assassinations and murders, for terrorist funding and weapons deals…
And of course (less morally and more theologically), that same money is used for donations to every non-Christian religion that there is.
The very universality of God’s name on money that goes anywhere and everywhere does, indeed, make God’s name utterly profane.
See how that goes down.
I don’t like the phrase, “In God We Trust” on my money. So I make sure that I have a sharpie at all of my desks, and a heavy black marker in my car. Whenever I get paper currency, before putting it back into circulation I remove the offensive phrase.
I sure wish more people would do this.
Not quite a poll, but an opportunity to comment: in U.S. News and World Report, “Should Creationism be Taught in Public Schools?”
It’s Glenn Branch vs. someone spouting creationist canards (missing links, the eye, evolution takes more faith to believe than creationism, no new info generated by mutations, etc.). Ugh.
Actually it does. Faith in the value of currency, is no different than faith in the invisible sky daddy. Fiat currency is simply another form of faith, since it’s not actually worth anything to anyone who doesn’t believe in its value, and only the government is forced to accept it as legal tender.
Brownian,
I said it’s likely that PZ is simply frustrated at his impotence. But that doesn’t explain why he is making unfounded claims about the validity of the poll. He could have just as easily said “Sorry, but this poll has too big a sampling for puny little me to make even a small dent in it.”
But instead, the Number Two Science Blogger chooses to make all kinds of unscientific and unfounded assertions about the poll. Sorry for expecting a rational approach from a scientist.
And it’s interesting that while PZ is the one making unfounded accusations, I am the one who gets called a sleaze and a weasel. Is that how it works around here?
Probably the same reason you’ve posted the same comment half a dozen times.
And given that the Gallup Poll recorded 90 percent ‘in favor’, this poll is actually approaching the same result.
How can a poll be “hacked, assaulted, flooded, oversubscribed” and still be so fairly accurate?
Actually I’ve seen results that range from the low 70% range to the 90% Gallup poll. When conducting polls a number of things impact the results. The biggest impact is how you phrase the question. Depending on how they conducted the poll, you can get significant error margins that could increase the range from the mid 60% range to the mid 90% range. Add online polls like this one where it isn’t that difficult to gimmick the poll and you can get some screwy numbers. This poll has all the signs of a gimmick:
–The first 10 months you have less than 30,000 submissions. That breaks down to less than 100 a day.
–For the next two years there are 7,000,000 submissions. Questionable to begin with, but that boils down to 1,000 submissions a day. A rather unusual spike especially considering that the poll was already a year old. Normally interest starts high and then declines.
–For the final five months there are 3,600,000 submissions. That comes up to 24,000 a day. Literally, for the final month, you have nearly as many people voting daily on the poll as you do in the entire first year.
–For the first three years of the poll the numbers were pretty solid, 80%/20% plus or minus 2 points. That consistency was utterly blown away for the final five months when you have a ridiculously high spike in voting and a 95.5% “no” vote.
So honestly, do you believe that “consistent” polling data produces ranges from 78% to 96%? Your idea of consistency is:
–One year poll, 30,000 votes, 80% yes, 20% no
–Three year poll, 7,000,000 votes, 78% yes, 22% no
–Five month poll, 3,600,000 votes 96% yes, 5% no
–Three and a half year poll, 11,000,000 votes, 84% yes, 16% no
You honestly don’t see a problem with those numbers? Or is it just that you like the results?
PZ has said that a poll cannot be crashed in other cases before. One was fairly recently, IIRC. I don’t think that the inability to use his “minions” to crash a poll makes him lose as much sleep as you think it does.
This poll was described as hacked because it was most likely hacked. The disproportional increase in votes is evidence for that.
On the other hand, your repeated posting of the same insinuation shows that it is you who has a little blunt nailclipper to grind…
I think they should just add the “all others pay cash” part to it.
Silly chunkdz. This poll has been around for a while, has a history of peculiar surges, and I’ve even been sent instructions on how to vote multiple times on it. 11 million is an unbelievably huge response to a trivial online poll — do you really want to argue that 4% of the American population turned out to click on a button on a web page?
And yes, I freely admit that I could not turn out another 11 million voters to swing this poll the other way, and I’m not interested in doing so if I could. It’s already a pointless poll.
Dogmeatib,
It’s an online poll. Nobody expects that it will not fluctuate over the years. Perhaps the poll is mentioned in an article, or gets mentioned on TV. This will cause periodic spikes in voting.
This does not mean the poll was “hacked”. It does not mean it is “dead”, “flooded” or anything else. Those are simply unfounded assertions.
However, the difference of 4% from the Gallup Poll is just barely outside the margin of error. If this poll was hacked, the hackers didn’t do a very good job.
chunkdz, PZ has been stating that the poll has been hacked the last few months and has tried to discourage people posting about it. Nothing new here except your lack of historical perspective.
Hi Prof. Myers,
I think perhaps it might be a little unscientific to assume that surges are due to “hacking”. It seems equally likely that surges occur as a result of publicity.
MSNBC gets millions of viewers every day. Over three and and a half years of cross media exposure I’d expect quite a few hits. And you of all people should understand that what may seem trivial online can often quickly become very, very popular in the media. Especially a “hot-button” topic such as God in America.
Pointless? Maybe. But “pointless” does not mean “hacked”, “oversubscribed”, or “massively flooded”. Let’s be clear that these are things you apparently made up. The actual evidence of the poll results shows, if anything, that if indeed the poll was hacked it was hacked pretty evenly from both sides.
Wow. You are an idiot. Did I claim it was hacked by only one side? No. That poll has been a battleground for hackers on all sides for quite some time, which is why I said there was no point to flog it further.
For a little perspective, a recent AOL poll on something as innocuous as “Best and Worst Movies of 2007” drew over 4 million votes in a relatively short amount of time.
It doesn’t seem surprising to me that a poll about “In God We Trust”, (a very important issue for many people) should generate 11 million votes over a period of over three years.
Prof Myers,
And of course, this was not my claim either. Nice try.
A claim for which you have not provided a shred of evidence. You’ve merely said that you think that the poll is so big that it simply must have been hacked. You are incredulous that 11 million people might feel strongly about the issue of God on American currency.
I expected more from the Number Two Science Blogger than an argument from incredulity.
Chunkdz, what is your problem? I suggest you leave. You are just showing your ignorance and prejudices.
Oh no. I’ve been threatened by “Nerd of Redhead”.
Listen nerd, I think Professor Myers can defend his own claims without you auditioning for his goon squad.
Here’s a little more hard evidence to add some perspective.
The 2008 Weblog Awards generated over 3 million page views and nearly a million votes in just a single week!
11 million votes on a very popular news site with TV and print cross-promotion – and a poll about a controversial topic – seems very plausible.
Oy, gevalt.
What do you want, chunk, a notarized videotape of hacker adding votes? There is a fuckton of circumstantial evidence that the poll has been stuffed six ways from Sunday. It’s nothing you’d take to court (well, maybe civil court), but the smart money says the poll is worthless. Hell, the bone-stupid money says so, too.
You’re just unreasonable.
Nerd, you are now a goon squad! That is even better than being awarded a molly.
chunkdz,
For fuck sakes, it’s an online poll! There is no validity to it, hacked or not. The results are completely worthless. Why the fuck are wasting your time defending it?
Sophist FCD,
Yeah, sticking to facts is unreasonable. Much better to rely on hearsay and guesswork.
You “science defenders” are a real bunch of geniuses.
I don’t know about geniuses, but we appear to be capable of recognising and dismissing as irrelevant the vapid rantings of a babbling assclown who’s wasting everyone’s time.
Wowbagger,
Seriously, how do you kiss PZ’s butt and type simultaneously? Do you have any substantive defense to offer or are you just trying to show off?
The fact is that a claim was made that the poll was hacked. Yet you all seem willing to blindly follow this assertion without the slightest bit of substantive evidence. Is this what goes on at “ScienceBlogs”??
Personally (which is the only opinion I can have) I think that many Americans like the safety blanket provided by the Mottos. They hearken back to the halcyon days of McCarthy, when America was Great, and Reds were Attacking American Values every day!
Only a Godless American-hating Commie would have a problem with God in the motto!
I’m sure if the Creo-bots had their way, we’d find some additional clarification of the Motto (In Christ we Trust, or One Nation, under Christ). That way they could definitively exclude all those heathens who worship Allah, or Ganesh, or Buddha, or Odin, or whomever… as well as we godless hordes!
I’m really pissed I”m reading this on my work laptop — I need to use IE, so don’t have KILLFILE! chunkdz would be there half a dozen comments ago!
I don’t. But that you couldn’t conceive how a human being with two hands could simultaneously type and kiss the ass of another human being illustrates just how stupid you actually are.
No doubt you’re sitting there with a perplexed expression on your face, so here’s the dumbed-down version: I neither type with my lips nor kiss with my hands. Since that’s probably news to you I’m guessing you aren’t going to be adding anything to the gene pool anytime soon.
What’s next? Are you going to tell me you eat pieces of shit like me for breakfast?
Please cite the number of the post where I have indicated my support for PZ’s assertion. Can’t find it? Funny thing, that. I’m making no comment whatsoever on whether it was hacked or not; I’m simply enjoying pointing out your vapidity so that anyone who’s actually following this thread might read something other than your insipid bleating.
Actually, I hacked the poll. It will do no good for mere mortals to try and change it; my Satanic powers have thoroughly compromised the host database.
It may have escaped your notice, but the votes for “No” are far, far ahead of “Yes”.
Of course. And the economy is currently in the toilet.
Think about it a bit.
Diabolical genius! I like it!
But what will you say when the economy picks up?
Yes, I thought it might appeal to Your peculiar sense of what is funny.
Oh, in that case, I will still find amusement in noting people thinking that utterly vapid public displays of piety will somehow make them appear moral and ethical to each other, and worthy of Your approval.
Of course, I also get that same sense of amusement while watching televangelists, but every little bit helps.
The motto on the notes is the least of the problems with US currency.
-jcr
3rd option) It is hypocritical to have church-state separation in law then have “in god we trust” stamped on state money thus implying that the constitution is of no particular value in the real world.
OT but here is a contest that I am shamelessly hoping to pharyngulate. It is a baby contest by a stupid radio station that my wife likes. Anyway here is the link:
http://www.wink106.com/page.php
gallery_id=4812&photo_id=73892
Please vote 10/10 for my boy Warren (heat 1, 4th baby down first column)
Thanks in advance.
I think I’d be ok with this religious nonsense being on the money if religious organizations were made to use some of their branded money to pay taxes.
Oops. Sorry PZ. I just sent you an email about this. Next time I’ll scroll down your page first.
Yeah, chain emails keep going around about that poll, stirring up excitement about it over and over again. I wonder how many years it’s going to drag on before everyone on earth knows it’s over. Maybe every baby born should be given a bracelet informing of them that the poll is fried.
Oops, “informing them.”
Wowbagger,
Well, you’re the expert.
That won’t be necessary. It’s already evident that you and your cohorts are just a bunch of mindless sycophants. Your leader abandons science in a transparent attempt to salvage his ego, and you zombie lemmings follow him right over the cliff.
What a stupid bunch of sheep you are.
The troll goes Baa, Baa, Baa…
Chunkdz,
What you can’t seem to get through your head is simple math and logic suggest quite strongly that this poll was hacked. In a five month period of time the votes in the poll increased 50% over the votes in the previous two years. Of those votes, 96% were cast for “no” when, for the previous three years, the vote was in the 80% range. That is, statistically speaking, highly improbable. This anomaly is on top of the obvious fact that it is an unscientific online poll which has been pointed out numerous times, with a well known method for multiple votes, which has also been pointed out.
Regardless of the results, which again you seem to truly care about, the poll is quite obviously trashed, just as trashed as any of the polls that PZ’s readers go to and flood. Its results are just as meaningless even if you happen to agree with them. I know some people who could go in and reverse the poll quite easily, but why? Anyone with common sense can see that it is already fragged.
Dogmeatib,
It’s all just as easily attributable to publicity. Could have been mentioned on a radio show. Could have been shown on TV. An alerting email could have went out. Poll surges are not uncommon and results are not uniform over time. Ever watch the election returns and how they fluctuate? It also very nearly matches the results of an earlier Gallup Poll. And most of all – there is not a single piece of concrete evidence to suggest that this poll was hacked.
No, the results correlate with what Gallup told us 5 years ago. Between 87% and 93% of Americans support “In God We Trust”.
But since your ego-driven leader says it was hacked, it must have been hacked.
You’re a real piece of work, Dogmeat. A blind accolyte. Pathetic.
I can’t believe chunkdz can’t realize the poll was hacked. Not that any on-line poll isn’t reliable to begin with. But continuing to bleat that the final results are significant just shows he is a True BelieverTM in the results, rather than skeptic looking at the facts of the hacking. Keep bleating oh ignorant one.
LOL! Ahh, the old “I could prove my point but I don’t feel like it today” approach.
Why don’t you do it, just to prove old chunkdz is wrong? Just send a bot in to rack up another ten million “no” votes or something.
Oh yeah. That would be disobeying a direct order from your leader. :)
What a cringing, mealy mouthed, pitiable, servile idiot you are.
Is there anybody here who actually thinks for himself?
Chunkdz, can you actually think? We will argue with PZ if we think he is wrong. We will argue with you when you are wrong, as you have been all thread. The only sheeple is you from the religiots.