Australia has taken an interesting step forward: they’re going to allow instruction in humanism in their schools, apparently in place of traditional religion classes.
Victorian state primary school students will soon have an alternative — religious education lessons taught by people who do not believe in God and say there is “no evidence of any supernatural power”.
The Humanist Society of Victoria has developed a curriculum, which the State Government accreditation body says it intends to approve, to deliver 30-minute lessons each week of “humanist applied ethics” to primary pupils.
Accredited volunteers will be able to teach their philosophy in the class time designated for religious instruction. As with lessons delivered by faith groups, parents will be able to request that their children do not participate.
Now the fun part. The religious are complaining, of course. The fundies are saying this opens the door to all kinds of wacko religions to get equal time in the schools.
Fundamentalist Christian group the Salt Shakers panned the idea of humanists being given religious education class time.
Research director Jenny Stokes said: “If you go there, where do you stop? What about witchcraft or Satanism?
“If you accredit humanism, then those things would have an equal claim to be taught in schools.”
To me, witchcraft and satanism are no crazier than Christianity, so I don’t see the point of the argument. What’s even funnier, though, is that the groups with a vested interest in supporting the mainstream religions have a completely different argument.
But the body that accredits Victoria’s 3500 Christian religious instruction volunteers, Access Ministries, says humanism is not a religion and so should not be taught in religious education time.
Access Ministries now teaches in about two-thirds of state primary schools. Other accredited instructors teach Judaism, Buddhism and Baha’i.The Humanist Society does not consider itself to be a religious organisation and believes ethics have “no necessary connection with religion”. Humanists believe people are responsible for their own destiny and reject the notion of a supernatural force or God.
So they can’t let a secular ethics taught because it’s a religion, and we can’t let it be taught because it is not a religion. I say let those two groups fight it out while the secular humanists just do their good ol’ rational thing.
Awesome. This does a bit to help to make up for producing the wretched Ken Ham.
The humanists hate the religious and the religious hate the Dutch and I don’t like anyone very much.
You humans are weird.
On my planet, Alpha Centauri, we have only one religion, the one TRUE religion, Zorxism!
I am so pleased about this.
And as an Australian, a little bit proud.
That does nothing to counteract the HUGE step backward earlier this week.
http://gaytheist.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/us-and-australia-refuse-un-declaration-against-illegality-of-homosexuality/
“The United States and Australia refuse to acknowledge that it’s wrong to imprison or murder homosexuals simply because they are homosexuals.”
This is great. Demanding equal time is the right thing to do. The more exposure we get for our ideals the more rational our world may become.
Good for Australia. Regardless what set of religious beliefs (or lack thereof) stick, at least kids will be getting exposure to a subset of what atheists, agnostics and humanists believe and don’t believe, and that most of us are ethical people. Though probably the kids who most need it will get opted out by their parents.
Who the hell are ‘the Salt Shakers’!?! I’ve never heard of them before. They sound more like a sixties wannabe rock group. Where are all these loony fundamentalist churches springing up from?
As an Australian im a bit proud also
After the recent controversies in which I felt my country was taking steps backward (Internet filter, games ratings, etc.) I was surprised and a little proud to discover this.
It’s nice that not everywhere I turn is dominated by puritanical Christianity.
It would be cool to get a copy of the curriculum, and pass it along to humanist proponents in the States.
Of course the religious people are complaining: Why would they want children to learn about caring for other humans? That would be just crazy!
Yay for us!
We are also in the throes of developing a national schools curriculum (currently each State has it’s own schools curriculum). The science curriculum discussion paper (disturbingly called a “framing paper”) explicitly has “evolution and the diversity of living things” as a topic and major concept in the biological sciences area, at the 12-15 year age group level.
The advisory group for the national science curriculum is:
Professor Denis Goodrum, Professor of Science Education, Faculty of Education, University of Canberra, Australian Capital Territory.
Professor Leonie Rennie, Dean, Graduate Studies Organisation, Science and Mathematics Education Centre, Curtin University.
Professor Russell Tytler, Professor of Science, Mathematics and Technology Education, Deakin University.
Shelley Peers, Australian Academy of Science — Education and Public Awareness Manager.
Glen Sawle, Senior Science Curriculum Officer, Dept. of Education and Training, New South Wales.
Nicolette Burraston, High School Teacher, Cowra High School, New South Wales
Debbie Smith, Head of Science, Centenary State High School, Queensland, Treasurer of the Australian Science Teachers Association.
Peter Russo, CEO Australian Science Teachers Association.
Professor Peter Fensham, Monash University, Emeritus Professor; Queensland University of Technology.
Professor Martin Westwell, Director, Flinders Centre for Science Education in the 21st Century, Flinders University.
Dr Jim Peacock, Research Fellow of CSIRO Plant Industry, former Australian Chief Scientist.
Spot the difference between this advisory board and the average US State school board curriculum committee!
PZ, it’s quite obvious that you only support Humanism because you see it as a step toward slipping Cephalopodism into the curriculum!
Seriously though, well done Aus.
#4
I think I took some magic mushrooms and saw your home planet…
After I read about the Aussie internet filter I thought for sure the next news out of Australia would be that it had become a theocracy but I’m glad to see that’s not the case.
In the US, it’s well-known that the easiest way to shut down any kind of religious “information” in a public school is to insist on equal time for all religions. The sort of rabid Christianists who want schools to push their beliefs would rather have nothing at all than have to allow children to learn about, oh, Wicca or Buddhism. It’s quicker and more effective than siccing the ACLU on them.
#5
“The United States and Australia refuse to acknowledge that it’s wrong to imprison or murder homosexuals simply because they are homosexuals.”
This is odd considering that homosexuality has been decriminalised in all States in Australia, with the last being Tasmania in 1997.
I should point out that this isn’t a decision of the Australian government but only of that of one state, Victoria.
Hopefully we in the rest of Australia will be following suit soon!
You can’t teach humanism in a religious classroom because it’s not a religion? By golly, I think they just admitted defeat in the ID/Creationism argument.
Humanism:Religion::Intelligent Design:Science
Beautiful! And it’s about bloody time.
No Evidence for God: Teach the Controversy!
I should point out that this isn’t a decision of the Australian government but only that of one state, Victoria.
Hopefully we in the rest of Australia will be following suit soon!
The United States and Australia refuse to acknowledge that it’s wrong to imprison or murder homosexuals simply because they are homosexuals.
Do Penny Wong and Bob Brown know about this?
And from the Age (24 Nov 2008): Govt removes same-sex discrimination
Not enough, IMO, but a start.
That’s like a breath of fresh air! I wonder how long it’s going to take the alleged “freely religious” U.S. to go there.
Humanism is a religion, you bloody atheists, it’s a religion that deifies human beings. Stop worshipping the creation and start worshipping the creator (God, who loves you, whose son DIED for YOUR SINS… get on your knees and repent… welcome God into your empty souls)
GiL the lying troll godbot who’s already said how they’d post no more: Humanism is an ideology, not a religion; only the religious actually worship. And there’s no dichotomy between being humanist and being religious, except in perverse religions such as yours.
Oh yeah, and any god-construct that supposedly required worship would not be worthy of such.
#1 This does a bit to help to make up for producing the wretched Ken Ham.
Sometimes I dream of having the morality of the bible. that way we could punish/kill Ken Ham’s parents for their spawn.
But alas, i am an atheist and therefore cannot.
So much for GodIsLove obeying the 9th commandment. Bears false witness on his own actions. Pathetic little liar
#24 GodIsLove:
‘Nuf said.
This is devastating news.
If Australia keeps moving in this direction, the US will be flooded with illegal fundie Aussie immigrants following Ken Ham to a new home where they will be given off the books jobs in Creation Museums and as homeschooling domestic workers. They will have children who have automatic US citizenship and drive down housing values. Crimes against science will be rampant.
They must stopped.
I say we build a giant wall around the equator to protect the northern hemisphere from these bottom of the earth dwelling heathens who are descended from criminals and believe Xmas comes in the middle of summer.
I must confess that this doesn’t much interest me.
But does this mean we can stop watching stuff starring those idiots Mel Gibson and what’s his name Hogan?
As much as I oppose fundamentalism, I rate ham actors even lower.
Am I making sense? I took an Ambiem an hour ago.
Kyle #19
Exactly! They say it’s a religion when they’re excluded, and not a religion when they want to exclude us.
They’ll say whatever’s convenient.
Australian Lolcat sez: U CAN HAZ R CREATIONISTS!
Again, the simple solution presents itself. Keep education and religion as separate enterprises.
Maybe, just maybe, this will force to them to actually think about it a little and they’ll realise that separation of church and state protects their religion from the tyranny of other religions as much as it protects those without religion from them.
And there’s nothing more hilarious than having one bunch of woo-soaked religulous consider their own personal brand of ooga-booga to be less ‘wacko’ than anyone else’s.
This Godis fellow just begging to be persecuted, so maybe it’s time we dropped the hammer on him, so that he can finally get off.
That, and anyone who tells people to get on their knees deserves a swift kick in the balls. This I believe strongly.
Ah, God Is Love, I do so enjoy it when you show up. Thou art so helpful.
Let us study together. Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.” Sounds pretty good to me. But then the Lord turns around and says: Hosea 13:16 “they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women and children shall be ripped up.”
Now dear God Is Love, do you take the way of a ‘Buffet Christian’ and only choose the parts of the Holy Scripture that you LIKE? Or do you take the entire bible as the inerrant word of God?
A heathen mind wants to know.
Posted by: Wowbagger | December 14, 2008 1:22 AM
“… there’s nothing more hilarious than having one bunch of woo-soaked religulous consider their own personal brand of ooga-booga to be less ‘wacko’ than anyone else’s.”
Are you implying that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not the one true superior god? How dare you offend pastafarians with such a vicious attack. I’m all for free speech, but this is clearly a bigoted hate crime. Waaaahhhhhh!!!!!
In an extreme case of the ultimate irony, my husband and I send our two children to a Private Christian school in Australia, to get the best scientific/maths/music/ethics education we can give them.
Being a Christian school, of course there is a religious component. They are also required to go to Chapel once a week. That being said, the religious studies is precisely that – a study of all religions.
As distasteful as that is to most of the posters here, religious studies are nicely counterbalanced with ethics and critical thinking skills not to mention the best science and maths teaching in our region…
Also, despite being a Christian school, students of all beliefs and backgrounds are welcomed.
I am very grateful for the Australian education system as a whole, and our school in particular.
Unfortunately, I fear that nothing we do will make up for foisting Ken Ham onto unsuspecting Americans…
In the city-state of Berlin, Germany I live in, we have mandatory secular ethics classes instead of religion classes. There is currently a campaign underway called ‘Pro Reli’, by which churches and church-dependent charity organizations want to propose a popular vote to reintroduce the optional confessional religion class. Of course they purport the idea that this is what pupils want – whereas the reality is that it’s the clerics and the sheepish parents who follow them who want the publically financed schools and the state to pay for church-appointed religion teachers to indoctrinate children to become church-tax paying sheeple, just like in the old days when I went to school.
We don’t even have actual humanism classes except in private humanist schools of which there are only a handful in the whole country, and already the irrationalists are up in arms because their privileges are being gradually cut away. It looks like our predominantly and increasingly atheistic/ religiously apathetic city will reject the popular vote on religion classes, but it’s not safe until February. Religious school education is where the loss of privileges hurts the clergy the most: at the root of their perpetuated power cycle.
The bible was written BY God himself. GOD is PERFECT, therefore the bible must be, by definition, PERFECT… But I wouldn’t expect you heathens, who have forsaken God and his perfect LOVE, to understand that. You call yourselves “freethinkers” but you are neither free (on the contrary you are the slaves of Satan himself) nor thinkers (you constantly and consistently reject what your tiny heathen minds cannot even begin to comprehend. (have you damned atheists ever even read HIS word?))
Accept God into your hearts, your minds, and your souls, and the absolute truth of the Bible and God’s perfect love will be evident.
So God came down to earth and wrote it down? So much for the new testament being eyewitness accounts.
So any contradictions are a sign that either God isn’t perfect or God didn’t write the bible?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
“If the Bible is telling the truth, then God is either untruthful or incompetent. If God is truthful, then the Bible is either untruthful or erroneous.” – Rev. Donald Morgan
While some have said the only good things that came out of Victoria were the highways heading north into New South Wales :-), fact is, Victoria has a great record of being the first to enact ground breaking legislation eg, I believe they were the first to make car seat belt use compulsory. Pretty good with women’s right to vote in 1908 as well.
Go Victorians!
God Is Love – It’s such a good thing you are here to help me understand god’s word. I am confused.
God says in Exodus 20:16 “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” And Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.”
But then in I Kings 22:23 “The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.”
I’m terrified! Why would God do such a thing to me if he loves me?
@GodIsLove
Whether you are a true bigoted religious nut or obnoxious serial Poester,
please go fuck yourself with a crucifix. If this confuses you go rent The Exoricist at your local family rated Blockbuster to see how it’s done. But first say goodbye again for the umpteenth time because you are destined for PZ’s dungeon and it may finally be your last lie.
Now Kel, you are just being naughty.
GodIsLove or Heddle will explain this mix up straight away, then you and I will see the error in our heathen ways.
And my Bulldogs shit diamonds…
@GodIsLove (IsPoe)
*headdesk* *headdesk* *facepalm* *epicfacepalm* *epicheaddesk* *breaksdesk*
@ Patricia, OM
God does love you, but HEATHENS like you must be disciplined so that you may truly appreciate HIS love. If you want his love, all you need to do is repent, get on your knees and repent before the LORD (the ONE TRUE GOD), repent for your evil acts, and let God’s love into your heart, your soul, and your mind. (God WILL forgive you.) Only then will you be able to truly understand the perfection of HIS love.
An eternity of torture because of a simple rejection? Doesn’t sound disciplinary more than vindictive. God is nothing more than a wife-beater “I do this because I love you”, only for never-ending torment. I assume God’s just some sadist fuck who gets off on watching the suffering of others. God made Dalmer in his own image.
Sounds like me.
Mayhempix – Ewwwwh! I got the crap scared out of me as a child by the flying monkey’s of Oz. Now you invoke Linda Blair’s spinning head – terror of my teenage years!
Thanks for the sweet dreams tonight.
I feel sorry for those who live in tribal africa or south america where they have no knowledge at all of christianity. God’s punishing them for simply being born into the wrong culture.
GodIsLove – Honey this is not my area of expertise.
Naked Bunny With a Whip needs to come in here and give some direct instruction.
But GodIsLove, you didn’t answer my questions about God. Getting down on my knees and repenting of what? Eating shrimp? Wearing nylons? Braiding my hair? You must tell me, my soul depends upon it.
Annie M@38
Yeah, it’s weird — I went to a private Anglican school, and we learned about comparative religions, philosophy, and so on, and there was definitely no creationism BS taught. We even learned to put condoms on bananas. It was all so sane!
The general attitude toward religion here in Australia is, for the most part, very laid back. There is religious influence on government but it’s much less invasive. Sure, we have to deal with the religious nuts like those trying to screw with our internet, but they don’t have anywhere near the influence on areas like education as the loons in the US do.
Went the Queensland education system starting about 18 years ago now and our school dropped RE completely after about Grade 3. Would have to check with my elder sister whether it’s still part of the curriculum of the lower grades (nephew just finished Grade 1)
High School was a different matter since I went to a Christian Brothers School (Catholic). Even then while most of our religion classes focused on Catholicism there was still stuff about historical context and the Old Testament was treated as allegory (at least the early parts). We also did ethics (and got to rewrite the ten commandments in one class), comparative religion and meditation.
And my high school was considered the best school in the area for science education. Not sure how evolution was covered since I dodged biology as much as possible in favour of physics and chemistry.
@GodIsLove:
If, as you so vehemently protest, the Bible is perfect, I’d like to point out that you’re godbotting on a Sunday. Pretty sure that’s against the rules, dude. Better LOG OFF THE INTERNET and BEG FORGIVENESS from your LORD on your KNEES!
And don’t come back on till Monday, at least.
I went to a public school and we had to do religion once a term! Quite bullshit in the end, especially as it was opt-out rather than opt-in and I had to get my parents consent as a 17 year old. Lousy system!
GodIsLove is either the worst, least funny satirist ever, or the saddest, least effective christian ever. Either way, I’m not impressed.
Fantastic
Being Australian this is great news, next is the high schools i hope.
I so wish something like that would have been available when I was in school! Even though I am not Australian… let’s hope they battle it out soon and show everyone how ridiculous the argument is – this way they might need more humanist teachers, and I’ve always wanted to visit down under ;-)
I went to a state primary school in the Netherlands and had humanist ethics education 25 years ago. I turned out alright. At least, I think so.
HEATHENS like you must be disciplined
You heard the Poe, Patricia. I’ll get the cuffs.
Why is there any sort of religious instruction in public schools ?
Why can’t Australians get rid of the whole useless shebang in their public schools ?
GIL I am no more scared of satan than I am of your super sky fairy, they both are nothing more than man created mythology. As far as he beeple is concerned it is the great book of myths, both testements, also written by semi literate men, with a few actual facts thown in like all the other mythologys
Get the genital tazer as well. Maybe a few 20kV jolts to his bell-end will make him fuck off.
Oh, you’re talking about non-fun discipline. I specialize in the sort that people want more of. :-
http://www.godhatessweden.com/
Might have to add Australia to the list.
QFT, and I’m normally on the other side to negentropyeater on these sorts of issues (since I think study of religion in schools is perfectly valid).
This is still splitting up kids according to their parents beliefs and instructing that in what they should belief as members of “their” group. That a small minority can be drilled in a belief system that isn’t stupid is of little relevance. It just brings some atheist parents on board with the idea that there are humanist children and christian children and hindu children. It’s bollocks.
I would only agree to a course on comparative religion in public schools if its objective were to expose how nonsensical all these myths and superstitions are. Because that doesn’t seem to be possible (imagine the folks!) any other sort of religious instruction in public schools should be fought against. Parents already have plenty of opportunities to brainwash their children with these nonsensical superstitious beliefs during the over 130 hours per week when children aren’t at school.
well, within the first 10 posts at least 3 aussies have declared how PROUD they are that this kinda stuff is happening in oz.
pride is a major feature of ignorant and backward cultures.
there is much more to be ashamed of than proud of down under.
It’s an even split tbh. If it’s weighted our cricket team puts us over the edge.
Kel, i dont see how sporting prowess is anything remarkable… it is merely a function of good climate, space for sports fields, an uncomplicated lifestyle, a large pool of proud mammals and government money.
pride is the kinda of thing that makes an arab kill 2 people because someone slapped him in the face.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c47_1226508074
The thing is, I don’t think you have to make that an explicit objective. If you go with what Dan Dennett called for – comparative religion classes that are strictly neutral and factual – I think the silliness will shine through. Religions are like sausages; if you find out how they were made you don’t want them any more. And, crucially, religious folks can’t object to factual study of their traditions without admitting they have something to hide.
It won’t mean the eradication of religions, but it will make it harder to be uncritical of them, and it will mean that when people are warring or otherwise being dicks over religion more of us will know what is going on between the groups.
Posted by: Patricia, OM | December 14, 2008 2:47 AM
“Mayhempix – Ewwwwh! I got the crap scared out of me as a child by the flying monkey’s of Oz. Now you invoke Linda Blair’s spinning head – terror of my teenage years!
Thanks for the sweet dreams tonight.”
Good morning Patricia, OM! Did you dream of a vomiting flying monkey named GodIsLove with a spinning head furiously working a crucifix while Naked Bunny looks on cracking her whip and laughing?
FTR those flying monkeys freaked me out too, but I was already a teen heathen atheist when The Exorcist came. I was greatly entertained by the groundbreaking special effects and put off by the religious crap.
GodisHate: you should be banned because you’re boring and stupid. Damning us all to hell just betrays your religious idiocy, a pychosis indistinguishable from madness. Have you lost loved ones because of your judgemental delusions? Are your children living with someone else? Do former partners now fuck other people because they couldn’t take your religious mania? Are you shunned by your colleagues?
But the worst thing, the unforgiveable one as far as this board is concerned, is that you give us nothing other than your lunacy, no comprehension, no seeking after wisdom, no attempt to understand why the world is not the heaven-like place you think it should be. There are intelligent and sensitive people on pharyngula and you treat us all like shit.
Please, please, just fuck off.
I mean “Jesus says” fuck off. Is that better?
Ive been trying to find anything regarding what these “Humanist” instructions would consist of,cant seem to find any…
If its comparative religion or a variant thereof,Id be all for it,teach the kids whats out there and let them make up their own minds over time.
Im just a bit concerned because there is wooers on all sides of the spectrum,and their website does not look encouraging,and does not seem to have a link to this whole thing,the last newsletter is from March.
Maybe just a badly designed website….
Matt #73,
But that’s precsely the point : I’m not saying you have to make the objective THAT explicit, but don’t underestimate the religious leaders, they are at least capable of asserting if such a course would be profitable for them or the contrary. That’s actually one thing they’re very good at, provoking a virulent defense mechanism. So I think you’d get even stronger resistance to Dennett’s proposal from the religious folks than to taking the whole shebang out of schools.
Don’t dream, a Dennett type course in public schools is not gonna happen any time soon.
On the other hand, getting rid of the whole thing is an achievable objective. We’ve done it France for the last 103 years, so I don’t see why Australians couldn’t do it now.
Access Ministries (from the OP) stated that “Humanists believe people are responsible for their own destiny and reject the notion of a supernatural force or God.”
Could the same not be said of Buddhism?
I think thst comparative religion should be taught in schools, the only real problem is that some religious folks wouldn’t be capable of teaching religious views other than their own without showing their contempt for the “wrong” ones. Judging how widespread the christian view that athiests have no morals is, it is difficult for them to explain a lsck of belief.
I had a brief experience myself having to teach RE in a school in England. It wasn’t a happy experience because I was new and having a hard time with discipline (and one of the modules was on “suffering” which I was experiencing but felt unable to pass on!). This was not entirely wasted on me, though, since I got to learn about Sikhism – and there, I thought, was a decent manmade religion. When I found out that 500-or-so years ago, Guru Nanak formed a new variant of Hindu/Buddhism which, while promoting various silly religious symbols turbans,daggers, etc (more of a group solidarity thing, really) said, amongst other things, that women are equal to men . This was, I felt, a guru I could see as a good man, an enlightened man. Add to that the fact that Sikhism doesn’t attempt to proselytise, and you have, for me, a pretty good religion – at least for other people.
In Britain, as no doubt in most of Europe, RE lessons can be a source of knowledge provided that the teacher is not one who sees it as an opportunity to spread the faith; luckily with many teachers over here, this seems to be the case. Oddly, RE is a subject here which is quite popular, at least in terms of exam applications.
The only thing about the Australian plan that makes me feel slighty uneasy is that I’m not sure that Humanism should be taught as a separate subject. I mean, I want to spread rationality, but I’m not at all sure about trying to convert people with mainstream religious views to athiesm. As long as religion stays out of science (and personal morals) that’s good enough for me.
#67 This is irritating! why are Sweden always a step ahead of us from Denmark! We deserve just as much hate for infidelity as Sweden. I demand GodIsLove to remedy this and setup a proper hate page.
Afaik, it depends which version. Some are riddled with supernatural beliefs. Some believe in Karma as a supernatural entity that decides what to do with your soul. Some believe in reincarnation. Some believe in God(s) and spirits, or at least some form of animism. Some reject all these supernatural entities, then it’s more similar to a philosophy of life and it converges towards humanism.
AnthonyK: Women aren’t equal to men. Duh
GIL, tell the Redhead she isn’t my equal, then expect a wallop that will knock you back into last week. Quit telling lies, and fade into the bandwidth. You are a bore.
Sorry GodisHate, but which part of “fuck off” did you not understand?
Nerd: Learn to speak english. Sheesh
And finally,GIL spoke a word of truth…well,it meant it to be funny,snarky,Poe-ey and all….which it wasnt,like all its comments…
But true it was nevertheless…
Of course not.Women are far superior to men.
That troll GIL needs to be starved until it gets thrown in the dungeon.
PZ, GIL is very disrupting and boring. If a Poe, it needs to confess its sin and stop. If not a Poe, or it can’t confess, needs to be plonked.
Looks like GIL has stirred up the rib creatures..
Don’t really understand what this means, but it sounds really conservative.
“As with lessons delivered by faith groups, parents will be able to request that their children do not participate.”
Huh? If anyone would suggest something like this in Sweden they’d be considered religious extremists – and for good reason. ‘Humanism’ is already in the ‘religious studies’ curriculum (at least in high school): one teacher (if he/she is christian, atheist or other doesn’t matter, it’s a teacher – not a priest) teaches about the Abrahamic religious, hinduism, buddhism, and various non-religious -isms. And no-one is allowed to skip class (religious studies, or any other subject), just because they or their parents are this or that.
Peeps peeps peeps – we’re all friends here right? And it isn’t nice to argue and call others names so close to Jesus’ birthday, is it, mmmm?
So here’s a little distraction – pure joy to see again, or even for the first time:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j5lU52aWTJo
Although I’m a secular humanist, I do believe it is a religion, or to be more accurate- on that level of belief. You can’t rationalize ethical priorities, you simply accept them, very much like a person would accept the tenets of any mythology. I think that forcing school children to learn about the axiomatic tenets of any ethical system, to the exclusion of others, is ultimately the same as teaching them a religion. The supernatural alone does not a belief-system make.
You certainly can rationalize ethical priorities. We all do. I can rationally justify any of the following, as can pretty well anyone else:
* Intent is more important than results.
* People are more important than property.
* Self-discipline is more important than control.
* Survival is more important than comfort.
* Creation is better than criticism.
* Responsibility is better than blame.
* Remorse is better than guilt.
* Love is better than hate.
* Caution is better than fear.
* Courage is better than foolhardiness.
* Knowledge is better than ignorance.
* Wisdom is better than knowledge.
* Honesty is better than deceit.
* Honor is better than arrogance.
* Peace is better than war.
* Joy is better than sorrow.
* Generosity is better than thrift.
* Mercy is better than justice.
Hoorah for Oz! And let’s hope for more of this all around the world!
I give up. This is getting boring. Here’s my confession: The real “GodIsLove” left some time ago, I took over for this post, well until post 82 anyway. Everything in my previous posts was Poe (hopefully all of you figured that out by now) You won’t here from me again (my day’s as Poe are over) (if someone else starts using GiL, know that it’s not me)
BTW, I’ve been touched by HIS Noodly Appendage
–[name redacted]
(I hate insomnia)
I think that ethics, critical thinking, logic, reasoning, and problem-solving skills should all be taught in school without reference to religion or atheism. There’s no need to say, “We’re godless secular humanists so we want to teach you the difference between right and wrong.” I’d much rather say, “We want you to be a fully functioning member of our world so we’re going to teach you….”
I give up. This is getting boring. – GIL
Wrong. It was boring right from the start. And you’re a stupid turd.
Well, as can be expected, the full of shit Religious Right in Australia are not taking this at all well…If you think I was too severe in what I just said, click on the link.
Reynold,
I left the following comment at that website:
It’s “waiting moderation.” Somehow I doubt it’ll get posted.
I’m not a stupid turd. I’m a very bored, insomniac turd, who decided to impersonate GiL.
Moother @ #70 and #72
So, who pee’d in your weetbix this morning?
Just sayin’.
I think you are selling short the remarkable captaincy record of Steve Waugh. Granted it was Border who dragged us from the doldrums, and Taylor who made us a winning side, but Waugh took the legacy of both and brought on an era of dominance unseen in the history of the game.
The same – with a few minor changes to the specifics – can be said for the arts: it entertains people and makes them happy; it uplifts and inspires them and can be a catalyst for their own achievements.
I, for one, don’t want to live in a world where I just work, eat and sleep.
pllllleeeeeeez, someone switch off GodIsHate
It’s just annoying.
#93: Intent is more important than results.
Actually, utilitarian that I am, I can pretty well rationalize that results are more important than intent, in most cases. (e.g. Communism is based on the best of intentions, but whoever still tries to implement it should by now know better and, ethically speaking, is performing pretty poorly.)
I live in Australia and am very very happy about this. That creature who equated humanism with witchcraft and satanism, it is on my list of foul rags. Damn this person.
@Tis’ Himself,
Yeah, I fucked up, of course we can rationalize. We can rationalize anything, the question is whether or not those priorities are inherently rational. They’re not.
Oh yeah, I’m well pleased to hear this. My little heathen-in-training starts school here in Victoria next year, at a state school, and I was getting a little worried when they introduced the Chaplain to the parents at the orientation night.
Back in my college, we were required to take several units worth of theology and philosophy alongside our standard course-related classes.
This being a Jesuit school, the deconstruction of Catholic Doctrine, alongside the study of decidedly humanist philosophies. “Act in grace not for the sake of a pie in the sky, but for the inherent dignity of every man,” as my proffs used to say regarding how they felt the faith should be followed.
So yes – Australia’s move to allow the teaching of humanism sounds like a beautiful idea. Speaking from a Catholic standpoint, I can see how easy it is to get so caught up in the intricacies and dogmatism of the faith, that you lose sight of what it’s supposed to be all about.
Thankfully, in Korea there is a complete separation of religion and state and this extends to the school system. Students learn ethics in middle school (public order, how to treat your parents, etc.) and Eastern and Western philosophy in high school. When I first started teaching university here I was amazed to learn that most of my students know Descartes and Camus (though how much they remember is another thing :) ).
If someone suggests teaching religion in the schools I will be throwing shoes like that brave journalist in Iraq.
‘Tis Himself @ #99
You comment was posted, but maybe it was only done so they can say;
“You are wrong, they do hate Christianity”
“Atheism is a religion – the UN says so”
“Evolution is a myth”
“You can not disprove god”
etc
OFSM!! I see the idiot creationists Tas Walker and Jonathan Sarfati post there too…..how suprising. :-/
Wow they’re using the tactics that the scientific community used to keep ID out of the science class!!!!
So they DO understand why ID should not be taught in class!
And yet…
I attended religious instruction in a Victorian primary school, as my parents were recent immigrants and unaware of the “opt-out” system until a couple of years later.
The religious instruction I received was conducted by an Anglican minister, who knew he was up against it. My school was in a neighborhood filled with recent immigrants, mostly roman catholic, maronite and muslim. We spent our one hour class drawing pictures while Reverend Green read a book quietly.