Well, we’ve got to start early, you know. When you’ve got a lot of godless skeptics who love the human celebration of family and tradition that is Christmas, yet are accused of trying to destroy the holiday by refusing to bow our heads to an imaginary sky fairy, you’ve got to add the job of shouting down the blustering Christianist idiots to the usual tasks of baking cookies and shopping for presents. Happy London is getting a show: well-known atheists will be at the Bloomsbury Theatre on 19 December, presenting Nine Lessons and Carols for Godless People. Now that is a Christmas I wish I could attend! I hope there will be a recording made to share with the world.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
I can’t wait to see the Radio City Music Hall Rocketts putting on the “Godless People Spectacular.” Talk about delutional, that dream of PZ takes the cake.
Llurra, are you just hovering over this site, waiting to pounce with another incoherent non sequitur? Because I’ve been tolerating you as long as you haven’t been taking over all of the commentary, but if you’re going to become an insane obsessive, you will be banned.
Go to church and pray.
I can’t believe these intolerant idiots want to destroy my christmas by forcing me to include the hateful idea of an all-powerful God who doesn’t do anything about global poverty in what is otherwise a happy and loving time for me and my family.
Incidentally, I don’t bake cookies, I make chocolate truffles. Recipe will be posted on my blog closer to christmas.
The church stole Xmas time celebrations from the pagans. I don’t see what their problem is with non-believers wanting their holiday back. (Oh right, that would require them to study and understand history.)
That would be an interesting recording.
I don’t know if this carol will will be on the program but it should be. It captures the true spirit of Christmas in a way that both Godless and , umm.. Godded can understand. Sorry if this doesn’t give a clickable link. Just cut and paste. You won’t be sorry.
NO! NO! NO! The War on Christmas starts earlier every year but September?
Besides it is almost time for the War on Halloween. That is one of the best things about Halloween, the mindless fruitbat stupidity of the fundies who apparently can’t discriminate between make believe and reality.
One of my favorite War holidays. Last year was a real disappointment though. A few fundies made the obligatory devil worshippers comments but no one paid any attention to them.
The War on Christmas was better but not by much. It was chiefly distinguished by the aggressive counterattack by pagans, atheists, seculars, Buddhists, and other Xians who decided it was a fun holiday and they were going to celebrate it and pay no attention to the War wingnuts.
For me the war started last week when I heard an advertisement for an Xmas decoration store. Maybe we should start saying this is a war we rage in self defense?
America, always at war with something…
I thought that Christmas was officially deemed a secular holiday. Was it not?
As an atheist, I can still celebrate Christmas with friends and family, because it’s a non-religious holiday in America.
Rrrright?
Regardless, I don’t buy gifts, I make donations in people’s names.
that’s a fantastic line-up there, that is.
After all these years, hasn’t anybody tried to change the word “Christmas” to a more secular term ?
In France, everybody uses the secular term “Noël”.
People are now calling the the “holiday period” in England as opposed to the Christmas period. In the end, the label doesn’t really matter. It’s celebrated as a secular holiday, and that should be what is important.
And we crazy Scandinavians use Jul. I guess that is a leftover from our not so distant pagan times when people celebrated midwinter blot, or jol around the 25. of December.
Can you believe I was 12 before I realized some people actually went to church on Christtmas Eve? I could not fathom why anyone willingly did something that boring on the most exciting night of the year :)
There is no “war” over solstice, which is what this time of year truly is. The “war” is in the minds of those who cling to their ideas and ideals that this time of the year should celebrate the birth of a fictitional character. According to biblical studies, had this character actually existed, he could not have possibly been born during the time nor in the manner that is celebrated today. They need to read their “holy books” more closely and understand their own version of their written history. I do not celebrate this time of year – I just simply get together with friends and family because it is fun, and another excuse to eat, drink, and be merry!
Several good points here. Very little religion left in America’s christmas. Solstice festivals came way before any of this stuff.
Just so we understand, the economics of it drives the insanity. When a retailer makes 50-70% of his annual take over a month, you have to expect this nonsense. I just read an article about halloween becoming it’s own season. Damn. We seem to need reasons for extended, pointless shopping. At least this one upsets some of the religiacs.
I like the near universal opportunity to see family and, oddly, I like the light displays. Beyond that, I’d rather be skiing, or hiking, or stargazing.
I agree essentially, but I think labels are not that benign, especially in societies like the American one which are having difficulties with cutting with their religious habits. They tend to reinforce the collective psyche of America as a Christian nation, and every occasion one can find to get rid of them, one should try to do it.
Damnit! Halloween isn’t even PAST yet! Can’t that wait until NOVEMBER?!
God Jul, y’all.
I’m the guy who organized the steal baby jesus statues from the nativity scene movement.
Our numbers have been growing worldwide.
Problem is, what do you do with a warehouse full of plaster baby jesus figures?
Maybe we could grind them all down and make crackers.
Anybody know how to generate electricity from baby jesus ?
While most people goes “What the fuckity fuck is a Noel supposed to mean”, it’s not secular. It’s from the word is an phonetic evolution (hahaha) of the ancient french word word “Nael” and the Latin “Natalis” (AKA “nativity” in crazy speak).
The O replacing the A in Nael comes from the dissimilation of the As in Natalis. The ¨ comes from diaeresis
Now what does all of that means? I have no idea, I was just reading the french wiki. But I knew it wasn’t secular.
Michelle,
the etymology for Noël is unclear, it may also come from the Gaulish words “noio” or “neu” meaning “new” and “helle” meaning “light” referring to the winter solstice when sunlight begins overtaking darkness.
Sure, that’s the one of the two main planks of the Palin (“she knows more about energy than just about anybody in the whole country”) Energy Plan:
1. Clean baby-jesus technology
2. Drill, baby drill.
ZOMFNEG, but that’s a good line-up. I saw Darren Hayman play a while back and he was great; Hefner were a hugely underrated band.
Plus Goldacre, Singh, Dawkins. I wish I was going to be there.
Calling it Christmas is sucking up to the Christian retards. I suggest call it what is really is: Santa Clause Day. Some people think Santa is imaginary, but at least nobody has been killed for Santa. The word “Christmas” is too insulting to use. Christmas means “Kill millions for Jebus”. The world will never rid itself of the breathtaking stupidity and immorality of Christianity if even atheists use the disgusting word Christmas.
Scooter, plaster can be recycled. All it needs is to be ground to a powder and baked to remove the water. Then mix with fresh water and make what you want out of it. However, it would be easier to find a place that makes the plaster mix as they would know what to do with the statues, and have equipment to process them.
Steve @ 24
1. Clean baby-jesus technology
Here is an Oil from Jesus miracle photo from Sarah’s webpage. http://hockeymompitbull.net/images/lighting.jpg
It won’t work with baby Jesii, you must let the Jesus mature before striking with lightning, then shoving a drill pipe up his charred ass to extract carbon.
You have to have a really big jesus btw.
Scooter@20 Nerd of Readhead@26,
I suggest a giant statue of the FSM.
Whoops, I misspelled Santa Claus in #25.
Nick
I suggest a giant statue of the FSM.
Excellent idea, extract the oil from the meatballs. What an underhanded way to steal from the Italians, while they are busy watching blood clot.
As a fairly vocal atheist, it surprises many people I know that I 100% support the “Put the Christ back in Christmas” movement.
It’s my personal feeling that the festival of greed and insincere good will that pervades the Christmas ‘season’ is a wart on the arse of civilization. I would love very little more than having Christmas reduced back to a single day when the worshippers of the Great Western Sky Fairy go about their rituals quietly in their houses of worship, while mainstream folks went about their regular business.
No “spend spend SPEND!” No pretending to give a shit about your fellow man when you know full well that on 26 December you’re going to kick him in the nuts anyway. No more Santa Claus. And more to the point, no more months of advertiser-borne guilt that now starts in mid-October, right after Thanksgiving here in Canada.
Maybe a day off work for personal reflection is all that’s needed.
So put the Christ back in Christmas… make Christmas the way it was 200 years ago and do away with the hedonistic crapfest that it has become!
“Joy to the World, The Lord is Dead.”
In December, there should be a series of “War on Christmas” articles, each one a hideous blasphemy of… people actually enjoying themselves.
We can torment the faithful with unholy recipes for sweets and cakes. We can goad the pious with unsanctified decorations. We can enrage the devout with godless gift ideas.
Our persecution will be cruel and unyielding. Their affected outrage will know no bounds.
Time to break out an oldie-but-goodie:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/2005/12/io_saturnalia_.html
Almost time to dust off my Yule favorite, an original draft copy of “Scrooge Meets the Commie Ghosts” the tale of how an English businessman is corrupted by evil socialist spirits until rescued by the Ghost of Adam Smith. I understand Mr. Dickens made some heavy re-writes before publishing.
I hope it’s filmed and posted online.
I love the holidays! I put up lots of lights. They are pretty! If someone were to make some FSM decorations – I would put those up! (Anyone listening? Million dollar idea right there);-)
I love halloween too! It’s fun to scare little kids then give them candy!
Gee, I love the holidays, too. It’s the one time of the year that everyone acts the way I do year-round.
If you can’t get to London for that show, but a copy of the Jethro Tull Christmas Album. Some of their best work in 25 years, and it’s a pretty secular compilation. You can sample a couple of them here:
http://www.j-tull.com/news/christmasalbum.cfm
I’m going to the London gig! Who’s up for a beer?
Is there a term for historical or cultural Christianity? What I’m trying to say is I don’t mind if you put a Christmas nativity scene as long as you that’s what the city has been doing every year. I don’t care if the Ten Commandments are on your courthouse lawn, as long as it was WPA project from the thirties. But if you start doing these things in the present, as a way to try force your religion on me now, it pisses me off.
Paul A.
I think the term is “Secular Theism”, which is the process whereby religious icons, terms, beliefs, and so forth are secularized.
This process is a cause of a lot of problems because people throw up nativity scenes not for religious purposes by as a way to celebrate Christmas without realizing that nativity scenes have potent religious baggage.
Get ready for the “War on Hannukah”
There will, of course, be air raids, so get ready to douse them candles!
Dreidels – Game of chance? or tool of Satan? Next thing you know, Jewish dreidel casinos will be popping up all over the place compounding the addicttions of top spinners, sahamefully gambling away their children’s Bar Mitvah bonds pleading “Jesus! I need an Gimel, now!”
In the USSR, the avoid conflict around the vast religious diversity in the land (Orthodox Xtian, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc), and also to emphasise lack of state religion, the celebratory present-giving tree-decorating event was in fact, New Year, not Christmas. To this day in Russia New Year is the major celebration, with Christmas (07 Jan, btw) being for the religious.
Thus our family is actually a bunch of atheists who DON’T celebrate Christmas. That usually shocks people here (in N.America) — “but when do you get presents? ='(” “When do you enjoy cake et al.?” Ummmm…there’s like 364 other days in a year when you can be festive?
So yeah, we actually celebrate neither of the Christmasses (unusual plural form there?), only New Year. Also, we never put up an American flag around 4 July. Also, we still speak Russian amongst each other. No wonder people stare at us!
I’m another atheist who doesn’t celebrate Christmas – because there’s very little to do with it that I don’t loathe or at least dislike. The last three years, I’ve spent it in the company of my son’s guinea pig, which suits me fine (not sure what she thinks of it – very little at a guess, these beasts are not renowned for their mental prowess), as the rest of the family goes to my in-laws and Sparow needs feeding and cleaning out. My wife’s not keen on New Year, so we have our own family festival on 28th or 29th.
Please refresh my memory. Wasn’t this whole “war on christmas” nonsense initiated by Bill o’Reilly a couple of years ago? It seems to me this never was an issue before then. But I’m not well-versed in American traditions.
I for one will be walking around outside with a banner and calling for the Law to stop this event taking place.
I’ll be protesting the fact that I was too late to get tickets and therefore I think it should be banned!
So there!!
American traditions aren’t too hard to figure out. We have various holidays, some of which we get off work.
It is traditional for fundie wingnuts to babble on about The War on (fill in the blank) holiday. This is always amusing because they never make any sense.
The best one is the War on Halloween. They go on about Satanists in the attics and parks and devil worshippers gathering with their covens in cemetaries along with gangs of witches to do, hmmmm, well whatever they do. Like they can’t tell the difference between make believe and reality. Then they dress their kids up in the usual costumes and they go trick or treating.
Hmph. I’m not sure why these people get so worked up over Isaac Newton’s birthday. We’ll celebrate, as in every year, by dropping apples from a Christmas tree (yes, yes, I know the apple dropping story was a legendary development) :) .
War on Christmas?
War on Halloween?
Feh, small potatoes.
I’m gettin’ zippered up for the War To End All Wars:
Arbor Day.
Nerd of Redhead,
Oh for crying out loud. It took only five comments until some uneducated fool thinks he or she is privy to some newly uncovered history that would shock, yes shock Christians. Christmas was co-opted from a pagan holiday? Stop the presses–prepare for the Pulitzer!
It seems there are quite a few Christians out there who indeed think that Christmas is and has always been a Christian holiday. That’s not to say all Christians believe that, but some do. Pointing out that traditions change over time in the social environment is pointing out the obvious, yet there are those who are oblivious.
Making a point does not require the precondition of being revelational. There’s no need to get indignant about someone for doing so.
Merry Mythmas!
Many people know that Christmas was made to coincide with the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, but how many know that Mithras was born on December 25, called the Good Shepherd, and so on?
I welcome all of you to join in with my fellow heathens and I to celebrate YTSD. Whats that you ask? Why it is a joyous time of GIFTS: YULE TIDE SWAG DAY!
Raise a wonderfully decadent glass of eggnog this YTSD as everyone around you worries about the true meaning of some pagan holiday that they all made up.
string those crackers. one cracker, two cranberries, cracker, cranberry, cracker, two cranberries is a nice sequence.
Don’t forget Festivus (for the rest of us)
Decemberween.
Evolving Squid (#31):
So that’s why the Brits call December 26 “Boxing Day”!
It took only five comments until some uneducated fool thinks he or she is privy to some newly uncovered history that would shock, yes shock Christians. – heddle
I see that pilock heddle is back. When Christians stop whining about other people treating the midwinter festival as a chance to have fun, and droning on about the “true meaning of Christmas” and “the day Our Lord was born”, then we can stop repeating the simple truth that they stole it.
pilock -> pillock @59. Sorry, heddle, I really didn’t mean to call you a “pilock”.
Nick Gotts,
“Stole” is perfectly stupid word to use in this instance. Let me suggest: adapted, borrowed, or co-opted.
Why don’t you come to my church, or any church I’ve attended in the last 15 years, I’ll provide a list. In those churches what you are likely to hear sometime during the Christams season is a cautionary sermon that includes:
1) Remember folks, this was a pagan holiday.
2) Remember folks, the bible nowhere commands us to celebrate Christ’s birth, but rather his death and resurrection
In addition I’d wager that, on the average, you’d find they know more history than you do.
However, I predict you’d prefer to live in a fantasy world, one in which you are so much smarter than the Christians.
heddle,
“Stole” is entirely appropriate, considering that the take-over was accomplished by brutal oppression and systematic lying.
Why don’t you come to my church, or any church I’ve attended in the last 15 years
Then for something more interesting and enlightening, I could watch paint dry for a few hours. I don’t need to go to church to hear the whining and droning I complain of – the broadcast media are full of it – almost as full of it as you.
In addition I’d wager that, on the average, you’d find they know more history than you do.
Since I spend a large proportion of my leisure time reading history, you would lose.
Wow, heddle is an arrogant wanker. “Look, my church teaches about Christmas being a pagan holiday…” yeah, but so what? Not every church teaches it, and there are many Christians who think it’s not.
Kel,
Yeah, those counter-examples to gross generalizations are a bitch.
That’s arguably true, though many does not imply most. The “persecuted American Christian” crowd is a generally unthinking and annoying minority of folks enamored with the noise they can generate. They are the Christian counterpart of the New Athiests–two peas in a pod.
And of course there are also many atheists who don’t know anything about the pagan roots of Christimas, or about any other subject you’d care to mention.
And I have no problem with the premise of PZ’s post. I too dislike Christians who whine about the “war on Christmas”. My original post was a mocking. The mocking was of those who feel the need to mention something that most people learn in grade school. (Newsflash: we also know that Martin Luther penned anti-Semitic writings!!)
More like a pea and a lima bean stuffed into a plastic bag that you want to call a “pod,” but whatever.
Sven,
15-6. I’m in a particularly foul mood, and prone to channel The Emperor Chaz Noll. Fortunately I have to write an Astronomy exam today, so I have a ready made scapegoat.
I’m in a particularly foul mood – heddle
You could always blame it on your particularly foul beliefs.
I have viewed X-mas as a secular holiday for a long time now. I personally celebrate Yule. I still send cards – usually ones wi9th snow and cute little critters on them – to freinds and family. I bake cookies and I do a tree. I just strip all the religious crap out of it.
heddle wrote:
And at these points, do you stand up and yell “Tell us something we don’t know! What kind of uneducated idiots do you take us for?”
Heddle ->> killfile
windy,
I think you’re missing the point. Many Christians go to church specifically to be bored out of their minds – it’s a mystical technique, a bit like the whirling of dervishes, or the hyperventilation the more excitable evangelicals go in for. If the preacher were to say anything fresh or interesting, the whole effect would be spoiled.
I think you’re missing the point.
I was asking a rhetorical question in the context of heddle’s original eruption.
Windy,
I do feel that way, but out of politeness I do not.
The Petey
That is more or less exactly what I do.
windy,
Yes I know – sorry, I should have added a ;-)
I do feel that way, but out of politeness I do not. – heddle
Maybe the preacher has a firmer grasp than you on the congregation’s likely level of ignorance?
Just want to bring to everyone’s attention the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy of heddle’s church:
http://www.sebts.edu/prospective_students/what_we_believe/chicago.cfm
It has been pointed out by heddle in the past that some of the phrasing is the result of the presence of YECs among the drafters. It’s useful to keep this in mind when you hear him mocking “those who feel the need to mention something that most people learn in grade school.”
The beginning of the end for me on christianity happened at a christmas service in a Florida southern baptist church. The preacher said, to a church full of families with kids, that “Santa Claus” stood for “Satan’s Claws”.
I was dumbfounded. I was shocked. I was convinced the preacher was an asshole and a moron. I was 11. I stopped going to church after that night.
Of course this was the same chirch that thought ALL sex was a sin, even between man and wife, yet had HUGE families. The irony was not lost on me.
The Petey,
I used to collect anecdotes under the umbrella “Too Good To Be True.” These are mostly I used to be a Christian until… stories, viz.,
• I heard my pastor teach that interracial marriages were of the devil…I immediately got up and left…
• I heard Reverend Mike, in a white suite and chewin’ tabaccky, teach that evilution was of the devil…I immediately got up and left…
• I heard my pastor teach that slavery wasn’t bad, slaves were actually happy campers whose white owners cared for them deeply…I immediately got up and left…
The list got to be long. But if I ever resurrect it, I’ll be sure to add: “I was a Christian until may pastor said ‘Santa Claus’ stood for ‘Satan’s Claws'”. I stopped going to church that very night.
I will also add:
Uh huh. That’s two from one post. Unprecedented.
#27 Scooter: how much oil could we get outta this bad boy?
SC@76
So heddle, are you a YEC, or a heretic according to your own church?
heddle@78, you’re calling Petey a liar, but you lack even the honesty to say it explicitly. Nice.
Heddle..
This church also kept “saved” lists on the wall of the chapel. My brother’s name was taken OFF the saved list and moved to the “not saved” list because he misbehaved at a church sponsored night at the roller skating rink.
I hear you, man. A functional offensive line would have been nice; tough for Ben to do his job while being sacked all the time. Still, 2-1, it’s been worse.
Nick Gotts
If Heddle is calling me a liar, I could honestly care less. I know my past and I know it to have happened. If he wants to cast doubts on peoples’ character to shore up his faith – more power to him. It easier to deny the testimony of others than it is to actually take a critical look at one’s on belief system.
Thanks for the back-up though.
There’s also the anecdote about the atheist who went to church for a while, listened to the sermons, and said holy crap, I believe this stuff.
You do have that one in your collection, I hope?
I call it Midwinter and send Midwinter cards, I give presents, I put up a decorated tree, I eat too much, drink too much, and generally have a good time, all because it’s a good excuse to have fun.
I am happy to say that due to the speed of the first show selling out, a second 9 lessons and carols for Godless People show is confirmed for 18th December with almost exactly the same bill including Richard Dawkins, Stewart Lee, Ben Goldacre, Josie Long etc. Robyn Hitchcock is unable to do this date and Mark Thomas and Phill Jupitus are not as yet confirmed. Tickets available from Monday at http://www.thebloomsbury.com