I must speak up in favor of religion. It’s not fair that it should be discriminated against and oppressed. I am disturbed by a case in which our federal government is impeding an individual’s right to worship as he pleases.
An inmate is suing the Utah Department of Corrections for denying him his right to practice an ancient Nordic religion while behind bars.
Michael Polk is serving time for aggravated assault and robbery. He filed a lawsuit against corrections officials in federal court, accusing them of denying him religious items that he says are necessary to practice the Asatru religion.
The religion worships ancient Nordic gods like Odin, Thor, Tyr and Heimdal.
In the lawsuit, Polk says he has been a member of the Asatru faith since 2005, and in order to properly practice it he needs items including: a Thor’s Hammer, a prayer cloth, a Mead Horn used for drinking Wassail, a drum made of wood and boar skin, a rune staff and a sword.
Heck, I need that stuff just for my annual ‘podmas party.
Praise Thor!
Hell, the Christian prisoners worship the son of a carpenter, so we should give them each a set of saws and files!
Maybe he should be given what a prisoner would have received at the time that Odin and Thor were commonly worshipped. Aggravated assault and robbery, you say? Let’s see, what would that person have “received”…
A hammer, sword and staff? Good grief. I wouldn’t want someone convicted of aggravated assault to get access to those things either.
Maybe we can reason with the Christians and tell them the true story of Thor, and how he was taught humility when Odin turned him into Donald Blake and lo how he fought many monsters…
Of course, then we can get into how Walt Simonson turned Asgard into an ancient alien superrace that patterned themselves after the Norse Gods and start a holy war. Still, it would be fun. :)
(but in this case, would the Hulk be considered the Devil?)
Oh man, I’m putting a Mead Horn on my Christmas list, stat.
They won’t give him a sword in prison?
Fascists.
Brutal.
I understand there is a new religion spreading across the prison population in which you need a set of really good files to carry out your worship.
Oh, crap, Steve beat me…. Well, then.
Hmm, perhaps I could start a faith-based program from this. Hmmm. . .
Excelsior!
I’m frequently told that the enlightened view is that all religions are but different paths to the same place, that of True Spirituality. So why not travel in style?
One of my kids (then a teenager) once told me they were thinking of looking into a religion, since I had raised them without one. My advice, as I recall, was to go ahead — “just don’t join anything where you have to do something creepy with a goat.”
That must have taken the fun out of it, because they remained nonreligious.
Instead of getting Subway sandwiches for memorizing Bible verses, you get blubber and lutefisk for memorizing the Eddas.
Besides, if we give inmates swords, they’ll stop making shivs out of razors and toothbrushes. See? Religion does rehabilitate!
The story is funny in and of itself, but that PZ also posted a picture of Thor in Marvel Comics makes it even better.
They’ll probably make him used canned wassail.
I’m disappointed with poor (overdone early 90s style) Thor artwork but this still made my day. XD
Aggravated assault and robbery may have been the preferred way of moving up the chain of command for the followers of the Asatru faith. This man could be a priest, and maybe someday even a minor god, once he moves up to rape, molestation and murderous mayhem. One advantage of the Asatru faith is that there are far fewer steps between faithful follower and minor god, which is why it is gaining in popularity, while Catholicism is waning.
As a devout Neo-Thorist, I am going on strike in protest of the discrimination perpetrated against this poor man and his holy rituals. I am forthwith embarking on an “ion strike”. Yes, that’s right: I won’t be rubbing any balloons on my sweater and sticking them to the ceiling, nor shall I repeatedly scuff my feet on the rug before touching my brother’s nose – not until this man gets his rights (and rites) restored. It’s a heavy sacrifice, but somebody’s got to take a stand. If not me, who? If not now, when?
Thor looks like he has ingested a few too many performance-enhancing drugs.
ZAH!
If you can get stuff like that just by joining a religion, I’m in. Of course, it has to be a good sword, quality hammer, and a beautiful rune staff….
Anyway, can’t the DI pitch in for the guy? I mean, not granting tenure for teaching magic, and unkind words when Ricky subverts one of the critical processes of science, constitute “viewpoint discrimination” (which in fact it does, as scholarship and science exist to do). So how much worse when a guy doesn’t get the paraphernalia needed to practice his religion?
I hear that the DI really hasn’t become destitute by spending on scientific research, so they ought to be able to help the guy (and me too).
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
What was the recent YouTube video–Pat Connell?–sort of making fun of religion in general by gently ridiculing Norse gods like Thor etc., and then in the comments all these evidently sincere Asatru people came out of the woodwork all incensed and insulted? It was a really funny read; “This idiot knows nothing of mighty Thor…it’s a magic hammer!” etc. Fascinating anthropology.
These infidels shall perish in a most shocking fashion.
Yeah. Goddamn nanny state.
Maybe he should add spam to his list?
There are some neo-nazis/neo-fascists who are practitioners of European pre-xtian faiths due to the non-Jewish origins of the religions. While this is likely a very small number of the neo-paganists, it must be noted that these religions (Asatru included) do have ties to some Very Bad People (as does any other religion, really). I could provide some citations, but I’m at work and don’t really feel like googling nazis on the work internets.
Let me strike that what is not needed and just fluff:
The Thor’s hammer is carried around the neck, and is rather small. Just like jewelry. The prayer cloth makes sense. The mead horn is nice to have, although anything will do. The drum and rune staff are for practicing Seidhr, practiced by a few only. The sword is just bullshit, hardly anyone had a sword in that time, an ax is much more efficient in battle, and can be used in everyday life as well.
P.S., I am a practicing Asatruer
I wonder how many Vikings traipsing around the backwaters of Northern Europe had such things at their disposal. Modern day pagans are kind of cool, but you always get the distinct impression they are making it up as they go along.
Kim wrote:
The Asatru religion. Is it … a metaphor? Symbolic? A therapeutic narrative?
Or do you take it literally? And if so, on what basis?
Don’t worry, my dear. We will give your religion just as much consideration and respect as we give the others. Step right in…
True, but most of us despise these racists, neo-nazi’s, and white supremacists who claim to be Heathen but actually spit on the religion of their forefathers. They act such that they bring only shame to our religion.
RobotZombieMonkey,
Formal Asatru organizations go to great lengths to distance themselves from racist groups. The groups you are referring to are Wotanists and are usually found in European Black Metal circles.
Yeah, I know, this blog is for fundamentalist radical atheists only.
“Don’t worry, my dear. We will give your religion just as much consideration and respect as we give the others. Step right in…”
Sastra I could kiss you. I can’t stop grinning now.
Todd wrote:
Well, that might be, but there are also several formal racist Asatru organizations, in Europe as well as here in the US. But most mainstream organizations indeed try to distance themselves explicitly from racists, fascists etc.
No, it’s not.
“Yeah, I know, this blog is for fundamentalist radical atheists only.”
Oh come now, that’s not true. We just don’t have any patience for illogic is all. I for one would be interested in having you answer the questions Sastra asked. I don’t have any intention of bashing your beliefs, I just like to try to understand why people believe what they do.
While there are much more visible groups x-tian based neo-nazi religious groups like the church of the creator and whatever that nutty Ukrainian one here in the NW is, there are, sadly, a growing number of boneheads moving towards neo-paganism. And, within the prison system there are confirmed neo-nazi groups… I see prison and Paganism and think more instantly of nazi idiots than someone who is actually practicing the faith.
I appreciate the statements from Kim and Todd, as I know the majority of neo-Pagans are perfectly decent people. But like any group, there’s always some total dick who makes everyone else look bad.
Hell no! We enjoy having trolls (oh sorry, did I just insult one of your religious icons?) around to mock.
This man could be a priest…once he moves up to rape, molestation and murderous mayhem…the Asatru faith is…gaining in popularity, while Catholicism is waning.
Sorry, I don’t see a difference between priests of the two religions myself.
Jba:
Sorry, but I do NOT feel save to discuss my religion here due to how many,including PZ react to it.
The generally sublimated, though as above sometimes openly written, claim that the ateists and fellow travelers here (and elsewhere) are people out “any patience for illogic” is an absurdly smug piece of idiocy that allows me to define my fellow atheists as “human beings,” in Mark Twain’s sense of the word.
This character in prison is probably simply more colorful in his illogic than most of the college-educated middle-class atheists who post here. Why are any throwing bricks (unless of the apparant nerf variety that PZ and some others led off with, and those only in fun). Pagans know how to cook, drink, and enjoy life, if often in a rather flamboyantly silly fashion, which tops most of the suburban atheist BBQs I’ve attended, however charming in their own, athropologically interesting way.
I’ll take 90% of neopagans or heard of over even 10% of political libertarians I’ve met (lots of both!).
darwinfinch, don’t worry, we mock the Randroids and other assorted Libertarians here, too.
Sweet non-existent deity of your choice, Libertarians are fucking stupid.
quote:
“Aggravated assault and robbery may have been the preferred way of moving up the chain of command for the followers of the Asatru faith. This man could be a priest, and maybe someday even a minor god, once he moves up to rape, molestation and murderous mayhem. ”
Posted by: Bill Anderson | December 20, 2007 3:36 PM >>
I have been practicing Asatru for 12 years. I’m also an agnostic humanist who completely resents what Bill wrote. I may not believe that the Gods are real, but I am still part of a terrific community of people who do not advocate for rape, murder or any of the awful things Bill mentioned.
And this guy in prison is an embarrassment. No one in prison needs or should get any sort of special religious equipment. It is prison. They can use their imaginations just like all the other God pestering people in the world.
There aren’t all that many libertarians around here either…
There aren’t all that many libertarians around here either…
No one in prison needs or should get any sort of special religious equipment. It is prison.
Let me guess, you’re one of these punishment advocacy types, right? I’d rather have someone have “special religious equipment” (whether that be a copy of the Bible, tefillin, or a Thor’s hammer pendant; I don’t care) than have them endure the kind of bullshit quasi-torture the law’n’order types think is not only normal, but de rigeur in US prisons these days. Frankly, if practicing a religion will keep someone out of trouble and/or give them a reason (read: excuse) not to contribute to the recidivism rate, go for it. Even if it doesn’t, I fail to see the harm in it. You’ve already taken away his freedom, and, no doubt, disenfranchised him (fucking barbarians) so what’s the harm in a few stupid creature comforts? I’d rather not put people through living hell just out of some misguided and quasi-religious sense of vengeance; I just want the harmful ones put out of the way somewhere where they’re not going to hurt anybody else.
I’d prefer that people took up rational thought instead, but Buddy has already proven that he’s too bonehead stupid not to break the law, and I’m a pragmatist. Not in the sort of Straussian “the little people need religion to keep them in line” kind of way, either. I don’t care whether what gets these guys through the night, Jesus Christ or Judas Priest, just so long as whatever it is keeps ’em busy.
Kim #31 wrote:
Kim #39 wrote:
If you don’t wish to discuss and explore the specific claims your religion makes, that’s fine. Of course you don’t have to, and plenty of people don’t. But hurling labels like “fundamentalist radical atheists” at us as you gracefully retire to safety takes away from the sensitive image, and looks like a cheap shot taken on the fly.
I think he should start a Church of Charlton Heston and demand firearms.
“are people out “any patience for illogic” is an absurdly smug piece of idiocy that allows me to define my fellow atheists as “human beings,” in Mark Twain’s sense of the word.”
You seem to have taken my comment more seriously than intended. I can’t speak for anyone else who says such things, but I meant it in a joking (although admittedly slightly snide, the phrase “fundamentalist radical atheists” pushed a button) manner. Once again my inability to tell jokes gets people pissy at me.
I was however serious that I would be interested in her answering Sastras questions, but I understand not wanting to.
denise:
As a recovering Catholic, I honestly don’t understand statements like this — why “practice” a religion that you admit isn’t real? What does that even mean? I hang out with a terrific community of people who play Call of Cthulhu and order stuff from the http://www.cthulhulives.org website, and given your statements above I’m honestly not clear how what we do is in principle different from what you do.
And perhaps it’s my Judeo-Christian roots showing, but it seems particularly odd to me to adopt a religion that is so tied to a specific culture and time (neither of which are yours “natively”), and especially to adopt worship/recognition/metaphorization of gods which are so, to put in somewhat poorly, “concrete”, and thus so easily dismissed by science.
I honestly do get that some people find various mythologies cool and a way to find community, and frankly, worshipping Thor is no weirder that dressing up like characters from Anne Rice novels. But I once saw a T-shirt aimed directly at the gothtards that said, in spikey blackletter font, “Vampires aren’t real. Get over it.” I guess I feel the same way about the Norse gods.
I really don’t mean this to sound like a personal attack — I’m sure both you and Kim are lovely people. But at the same time, your “religious” practice sounds bizarre and irrational to me, even more so that most mainstream believers, since in your case it doesn’t even sound like you actually “believe”.
One day, the Society for Creative Anachronisms will rule the world.
AlanWCan @38:
I was being flippant and not at all sensitive. And I agree with you – I didn’t mean to state that there is much of any difference between the priests in the two religions, only that the Catholic church is more finely structured, which would make it more of a chore to get to the top, requiring more mayhem and risk-taking, and resulting perhaps in more disappointment with the slower advancement.
and to Kim and Denise:
Sorry I insulted you so badly. I’ll make note that comparing anyone’s religion to Catholicism is crossing that line that should never be crossed.
But at the same time, your “religious” practice sounds bizarre and irrational to me, even more so that most mainstream believers, since in your case it doesn’t even sound like you actually “believe”.
Actually, I find it rather refreshing; people who live in a world of play pretend and admit it! It’s Dungeons and Dragons! Whimsy I can totally understand.
It’s the one’s who won’t admit it that sound bizarre and irrational to me.
Interrobang wrote:
“Let me guess, you’re one of these punishment advocacy types, right?”
Well, after reading your comment and thinking about it I have to say that you are partly right. I do think prisons are for punishment and they should not be fun places. However, I am not an advocate for torture. What I would like to see more of in prison is education and psychotherapy.
The subject of religion in prison is very complicated. Within the Asatru community there is a lot of debate regarding prison ministry. I’m not doing it. But if someone wants to, I would never think less of them.
Likewise, my feelings on giving no special religious equipment to people are complicated. I don’t think that the Gods are real, but I still think Havamal has more to offer in the way of life guidance advice than anything in the bible I was raised with. I think having holy texts are essential to anyone following a religion in prison. Books should not be considered “extra” or “special” But ritual tools are different. What is essential? Holy text, time and place to worship. I feel that nothing more is needed in any religion. There is nothing wrong with having all the bells and whistles. However, I think those sorts of trimmings are privileges and can wait until a person is out of prison.
“I honestly do get that some people find various mythologies cool and a way to find community, and frankly, worshipping Thor is no weirder that dressing up like characters from Anne Rice novels.”
Or any weirder than going to a pancake breakfast or midnight mass. I’m starting to think that being surrounded by a community of sympathetic peers is far more important for a lot of people than having a complex belief system in which to participate. Attending church is no different than going to a moot, in that the people present are going to all have differing levels of commitment and belief, but what’s important is the personal interaction and sense of belonging that comes from being part of a group. There will always be extremists, but the moderates shrug and dismiss them as not being members of their own particular group.
What? They’re not burning Marvel Comics down for mocking their god? What kind of religion is that?
What? They’re not burning Marvel Comics down for mocking their god? What kind of religion is that?
Tulse:
Hi. I do not think you are being insulting by asking this. I can only speak for myself. Years ago I did believe that the Norse Gods were real. Now time goes by and I’m 37 and I am not sure if age has anything to do with it, but I’m changing my mind. It’s a sad feeling, sort of. Reality isn’t as romantic as I wish. But I then I never could stand the wackos who claimed that the Gods saved parking spaces just for them or that they were powerful rune magicians.
Why do I still consider myself Asatru? I am not sure. I am still part of this community here in the North East US. Even if I stopped using the label Asatru, I would still be hanging out with them and celebrating holidays with them. Just as I still celebrate Christmas with my Catholic family and the Easter Bunny shows up every year with a basket of stuff for my son. Maybe someday I will not use the term. But for now, I’m not ready to leave it behind. Funnily enough, I am meeting more and more Asatruar who feel similarly about the existence of the Gods. There are also a fair number of people in Asatru who are also studying Buddhism. So we are not all arm-chair vikings.
The Norse gods do not exist. Neither do the gods of Hinduism, nor the Greco-Roman gods, nor Jesus, nor Allah. Gods are nothing more than the characters in the various “Just-So” stories that different human cultures invented to explain natural phenomena. Anyone who believes that Thor makes the thunder by swinging his magic hammer is delusional, period.
There is no such thing as “fundamental atheism”–atheists merely use reason and logic to understand how the universe works. So far, there is simply no reason to believe that gods exist; the same goes for vampires, leprechauns, unicorns, and fairies.
It’s also disingenuous for the advocates of woo to plead “hurt feelings” when critics when point out that your gods are no more real than George Bush’s Mensa card.
Gobear,
I never claimed hurt feelings because someone pointed out the Norse Gods were not real. I claimed hurt feelings when someone suggested that to become a priest in Asatru you had to rape someone. Big difference.
Okay, I’m use to being ‘attacked’ so here goes… There are some of us who call ourselves Atheistic Pagans. (If you think you get picked on for being just Atheists, we’ve got you beat.)
In brief, Atheistic Pagans are those who don’t believe in a “Supreme Being”, yet have a profound reverence for the forces of nature. The rituals and rites are a metaphorical means of focusing on a particular goal, desire, element, etc. in an attempt to manifest those specific qualities into our life. Much like focused meditation or positive affirmations. Some give these ideas/energies names of gods or goddesses who personify the aspects they wish to focus and draw upon.
Well why not just meditate on a goal and follow through? Why all this child like nonsense? The actual act of putting a ritual together (not unlike the little daily rituals we all have) and working it kicks the idea into consciousness much faster than just sitting quietly and meditating. Call it a crutch, but if it works for people to help them get where they want to be, then it’s not a bad thing. Hope that clears up some misunderstandings here.
One way for a rational person to get some use out of religion and in some way understand neopagan practices, is to compare religious practice to Tai Chi.
In practicing tai chi, the student is required to take a number of positions and move fluidly between them. These positions have really great names like Grasp Bird’s Tail, White Stork Spreads Wings, Carry Tiger to Mountain and Reach Up to Pat Horse. Yet it does not need to be taught in petting zoos, you don’t need to stock birdseed or keep the tiger separate from the horse. No one pretends that the horses and tigers and the rest of the zoo really exist.
The result of tai chi practice is a flexible and athletically well-educated body, plus whatever mental and intellectual health derives from the practice.
I contend that a lot of present-day religions have fallen into the trap of believing the menagerie of their faith is real.
Neopagan practice is probably the single religion in the world which takes beginners routinely “under the hood”, from the first few lessons, to show the effects of our religious practices and how those effects are achieved. Far from being taught as a set of doctrines, it is taught as a set of techniques. No one is expected to believe that the gods exist, or that the neopagan structure of the universe has anything to do with what the quarks and the bosons are doing. In fact, an equivocal and skeptical approach is the most common.
When human beings “do religion”, they are doing something which has a real effect, if only in their own heads. This is a reality, and a fairly powerful one, and needs to be taken into account.
Sometimes, perhaps often, it produces results that are horrifying or stultifying — but it isn’t necessarily going to do that.
The real question is not whether this or that religious template is true. Instead, we need to ask what is it that people do when they do religion, and how that power and unusual focus can be added to our other intellectual and imaginative powers.
Noni
By the Great Chaotic and Echoing Cackle of Loki! Give this man his hammer, his mead horn and all else he asks for!
He asks only for that which he is required to properly worship his God(s), for he is above all faithful.
By following the old ways, the True Ways, his soul is at peace with the Old Ones. Thus his spirit is at rest and he won’t feel like starting a brawl to distract attention from two Baptists about to slip something between the ribs of a Unitarian.
This ought to give (almost) everyone here the warm fuzzies:
The Pain: Science vs. Norse Mythology
A hammer, sword and staff? Surely those things shouldn’t be given to an inmate. Where’s the religious discrimination?
What is this about Thor? Zeus or Brahma could give him a run for his money any day.
I think the folks who self-consciously adopt a religion for the psychological, social, and cultural factors are often in an interesting position. They don’t literally believe in it, of course — but they seem to figuratively believe in it. And there’s often a fine line which continuously gets crossed, and re-crossed, and back again, on just how seriously they take it all. The fine line gets fuzzy. Sometimes it seems to depend on who they’re talking to, or what they need at the moment, or whether they’re caught up in the excitement or sitting down and thinking more calmly. They don’t think it matters. I suppose, in some sense, it really doesn’t.
Daniel Dennett talks about “belief in belief” — where people don’t necessarily take the claims of religion as facts, but they know that the act of believing — expressing faith — is very, very important. Atheists don’t “get” how incredibly important this attitude is.
By “believing in belief” pagans seem to be fostering the cultural idea that one needs to be religious. And yet, by managing to translate the sacred into secular terms and admitting to ‘play-acting’ they’re also — ironically — promoting the rational. It’s a game of pretend, but it works, so it’s real enough as long as you keep some part of your wits about you, and know it’s a game.
Uh, okay. I guess.
Here’s one thing I really admire about the pagans, though: when Michael Newdow filed his complaint against the words “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance being recited in public schools, one of the major pagan organizations came out with an official statement of support for him and separation of church and state. Now, other religious groups did the same (not many, but some) – yet the pagans, being marginalized by society more than most, would have gained a lot of social credit by condemning him. “We believe in God in our own way, and this is a travesty, etc.” They didn’t. That’s integrity. I respected that at the time. Still do.
What? They’re not burning Marvel Comics down for mocking their god? What kind of religion is that?
Tsk tsk. Haven’t you read where Stan the Man exhorted Marvel fans as ‘True Believers’? Apparently, Mr. Leibowitz got the memo.
The wassail cup was Anglo-Saxon in origin: waes hael is old English for good health. Gangs of singers would go from house to house with a carved wooden cup – the wassail cup – to collect money for food, or more probably, booze.
http://thewordwench.blogspot.com/2007/12/wassail.html
Wassailing and wassail songs are triffic fun, but no horn required.
He’s making it up, like all religions.
Kim #39 wrote:
“Sorry, but I do NOT feel save to discuss my religion here due to how many,including PZ react to it.”
Oh please, sister. You’re fairly begging to discuss your religion, which is exactly why you brought it up here. Readers here have a low threshold for disingenuousness.
You’re a whole lot safer here – in the actual meaning of the term; i.e. – you’re not going to come to bodily harm – than you would be if you mentioned your beliefs in a fundie Christian church. But I gather you’re using “safe” in the soft-n-gentle-new-age support group sense, where people characterize frank criticism and logic as “violence” against another. If you believe you’ll be irreparably psychologically traumatized if your feelings or “ways of knowing” aren’t “validated,” then you probably are “unsafe” here. Or something.
Must be difficult to be so fragile.
back to the original post topic
quoted from original article
“In the lawsuit, Polk says he has been a member of the Asatru faith since 2005, and in order to properly practice it he needs items including: a Thor’s Hammer, a prayer cloth, a Mead Horn used for drinking Wassail, a drum made of wood and boar skin, a rune staff and a sword.”
In that case I need a Sauna. I just can not possibly practice my religion without one. The fact that the US Government wont buy me one is absolute proof or religious intolerance and I wont stand for it!
Oh.. and I also need a bear skin rug. (But the bear has to have died from natural causes) I can’t worship Odin without some really good wine, nothing under $50 a bottle. And I will also require the Government pay for me to make a pilgrimage to Iceland at least once a year. (during the summer, not the winter. How can I properly worship Tyr at Thingvellir if I can not see the law rock?)
Now the question is.. do I have to knock off a store to qualify for this government program?
#29: “True, but most of us despise these racists, neo-nazi’s, and white supremacists who claim to be Heathen but actually spit on the religion of their forefathers. They act such that they bring only shame to our religion.”
#30: “Formal Asatru organizations go to great lengths to distance themselves from racist groups. The groups you are referring to are Wotanists and are usually found in European Black Metal circles.”
Translation: This prisoner isn’t a real follower of Asatru!
Otherwise known as the the “Not a True Norseman” argument.
Ba dum bump. I’m here all week, folks…
The article didn’t state if the inmate belonged to the Southern Asatru Convention, the National Asatru Convention of America, the Progressive National Asatru Convention, or the Full Nordic Asatru Church Fellowship.
For the Asatru commenters above, no offence, but you can’t call yourself a real religion unless you’ve had a good schism or two.
So debunking the Xtian notion that Joe Stalin is a representative atheist must be the “Not a True Atheist” argument.
Ba dum bump to you too.
I remember when this religion started. As I recall, their unveiling was at a mid-summers eve in Iceland in ’68 or ’69. I can still remember a news photo of the event.
The religion was founded for tax reasons as a percentage of one’s income was automatically tithed to the official Lutheran Church if one wasn’t a member of another formal church body. In other words, No Atheists Allowed in Iceland. It was my understanding that many of the original participants were Atheists, along with pseudo-pagans & hippies.
I can’t think of a better reason to start a religion than to keep money from going to a Monotheistic church and instead having it go into a fund for seasonal partying.
When I was working in prison back in ’83/’84 there were a number of these Norse pseudo-pagans, all of them affiliated with the Aryan Warriors & the Aryan Brotherhood. I could never figure out which was which, but the only people the White Supremacists hated worse than Blacks & Hispanics were the other White Supremacists (just like in The Life of Brian).
It is pretty good odds that this particular pseudo-pagan is a White Supremacist. The only entertainment many of these prisoners have is filing lawsuits, and they can be quite creative & persistent.
.
Hmmmm. If Dr Evil had a gun to my head, forcing me to adopt a religion, this neo-paganism would be the go. No requirement to literally believe in any supernatural nonsense, and I could limit my observance to owning a hammer and having an occasional naked moonlight mead-frenzy. That wouldn’t be too onerous.
Jaycubed,
I met some of the Icelandic Asatruar in 2000. It is true that a portion of their taxes go to either a recognized church of their choice or to the default which is the university. From what they told me a large portion of their membership used to be Atheists. however,I am told that these days they are more sincerely trying to revive the worship of Norse Gods.
Most of the first Asatruar in the US were racists. I have never seen any evidence to contradict this. Most of the Asatru prison groups are racist, either by design or default. Almost 40 years has passed since the beginning of Asatru in the US and most Asatruar these days are quite vocal about not being racists. This change in popular opinion is probably the major reason why so many people in the religion are against prison ministry. This and the ridiculous things that prisoners ask for. Oh and the occasional multiple stabbing of fellow inmates because they weren’t worshiping correctly. yeah… that tends to make us not want to send prisoners stuff. I think most of us hope that these prison vikings find jesus.
My standard response is “Every group has it’s jerks.”
Buffybot,
Yes.. that is it. Now I remember why I still call myself Asatru! I love naked moonlight mead-frenzys! actually they are more like fully dressed by a big fire, beer frenzies. But that’s the Asatru version. Occasionally I do go to a pan-pagan festival and there is much nakedness (for better, but usually for worse) and mead is usually happening somewhere in there. If you are looking for low commitment, lots of parties and a deep appreciation of nature, It is indeed the best way to go.
“Hmmmm. If Dr Evil had a gun to my head, forcing me to adopt a religion, this neo-paganism would be the go. No requirement to literally believe in any supernatural nonsense, and I could limit my observance to owning a hammer and having an occasional naked moonlight mead-frenzy. That wouldn’t be too onerous.
Posted by: Buffybot”
Anyone who starts off a conversation about religion with “it doesn’t matter if any of it is true…” has already lost me. Of course if f-ing matters if it’s true. If you want to discuss the power of myth in people’s lives, then we all need to admit up front that we’re talking about a placebo effect here. If you want to hold out with the “it might be true” position, then I’m going to start demanding evidence and it’s going to get ugly. It absolutely matters if religion is true or not. It’s all that matters. We can’t even begin to discuss the merits of belief until that’s settled.
I worship Natalie Portman — if I get thrown in the Big House, will she be provide to me?
That’s also part of Portmanism, although it usually additionally involves a fireplace.
I, also, am a Natalie Portmanite. I find this in no way conflicts with my Angelina Jolieism or my Jessica Albaity. And I firmly believe that we should all be able to live together in peace.
All four at once? That sounds exhausting.
Did you come here for an argument?
Yes, all four at once. The Holy Trinity is boring.
Micheal Glenn:
It’s not that Stalin wasn’t really an atheist, it’s that the actions Stalin is known for (e.g. brutal dictatorship) are as extremely uncommon among atheists as they are among any other religion. Atheist stereotypes include being argumentative and snippy, but not mass murder.
Getting back on topic once again, I say give the guy what he wants: access three times a week to a room with a toy sword, a 42″ wooden dowel, a folding cup, and a secondhand snare drum. Hit him if he tries to walk out with any of it. He can keep the little hammer necklace for all I care, but I’m sure he’d readily take up the suggestion to tattoo it on instead if he’s a wacky racist as others in this thread suspect.
I’m just looking for
one divine hammer
I’d bang it all day
Oh the carpenter goes bang
Bang bang
First off, I agree completely, there’s no such thing as fundamentalist atheists, of course. It seems only the religious with absolutist minds (almost all of them) or the hugely uninformed seem to think so.
But also I wish people, especially atheists, stopped saying stuff like “atheists use reason and logic”. I am an atheist, for whatever’s worth (not much in my book, it just means I don’t believe in one thing), and sure, reason and logic have contributed hugely for me to become an atheist, but not the other way around. Atheism particularly wasn’t the cause of rationality, it came as a consequence. And not every atheist reaches (or rather, goes back to) atheism the same way.
Everybody is born an atheist (and pretty much an a-anything-ism), and has the same propensity to believe ludicrous things. As long as they don’t involve a god, they’re still atheists, and as deluded as any theist or agnostic could be.
H. Humbert: Go back and actually read comments #59 & 60. In those discussions of how framing one’s mind and one’s physical actions help achieve certain kinds of feelings and thoughts – meditative states, emotional harmony, etc. – where exactly does BELIEF enter into it at all?
I’m an atheist, full stop. But that doesn’t prevent me from actually listening when someone else is trying to explain how they view the world and live in the world, especially when someone explicitly says they share my atheism – as Atheist Pagan did.
It matters whether a claim about the world is true, yes. But the whole point of a practice-centered religious tradition – many forms of Buddhism and Taoism, and almost all neo-pagan traditions – is that it isn’t about what you believe or claim or profess, but rather about how you live in the world. Pagans don’t generally make many claims about the world – or when they do make something that sounds like a claim about the world, it is generally with the explicit or implicit understanding that they are talking about is a subjective claim (their world view, not the world) or metaphor, and therefore not really a claim about the world as such. Not all pagans are this way, or consistent and clear about it – but many are, probably a majority.
A pagan friend of mind often quotes someone-or-other as saying, “No one should believe in any gods they haven’t met.” When someone with a decidedly more mystical bent than I talks about encountering the gods, yet clearly doesn’t interpret her experiences as being an objective occurrences in the world outside her head or expect me to treat it as such, I think it would be both rude and foolish to focus on the god talk and ignore the admission of subjectivity. When someone talks about their internal EXPERIENCES (not their interpretations of them, but the experiences themselves), no one else can have any conceivable basis for disagreement. Consider how you would react if you were relating a dream you had last night to someone and he said, “Don’t be ridiculous! You had no such dream.”
I figure it this way: I don’t really understand how a color blind person experiences the world, let alone a blind person, so I’m in no position to gainsay their own accounts of their experiences and perspectives. Ditto with mystics: I don’t have a mystical bone in my body (or mystical notion in my psyche), so I am in no position to gainsay their encounters with the divine. We can, should, and will argue about the objective world and the things in it – the world that we can have shared access to and understanding of through publicly available evidence and reasoning. But as long as someone doesn’t go around basing claims about that shared world on private, inaccessible experience instead of publicly available evidence, we’ll get along just fine.
Of course, that leaves out most religious people: Faith simply IS holding beliefs about the public realm on the basis of private, inaccessible experience – or on simple will to believe absent even the thin justification of subjective experience. And that, for all sorts of reasons I don’t need to belabor in this venue, is a bad thing. But I try not to generalize overmuch, and to recognize that there is a distinction between practice-focused religion and faith. I don’t have any use for either of them myself, but only faith is actually harmful, and religious practice can be very helpful to some people.
Why is there increasing interest in Asatru ritual? As a follower explained to me recently,
“My god has a hammer. Their god got nailed to a cross. Any questions?”
If people find certain practices and rituals make them feel better and give them meaning, that’s certainly fine. But if there is no actual supernatural belief attached to those practices and rituals, then they’re not a religion, they’re psychotherapy. Again, that’s fine (speaking as someone whose spouse is a non-deistic Buddhist), but let’s not confuse our terminology. As the term is generally used, one necessary criterion for a “religion” is some sort of supernatural belief. Otherwise, as I suggested earlier, I really don’t see how playing D&D or participating in the Society for Creative Anachronisms (or for that matter, being a Green Bay Packers fan) is any different in principle from being a “believer” in Asatru.
“The religion was founded for tax reasons as a percentage of one’s income was automatically tithed to the official Lutheran Church if one wasn’t a member of another formal church body. In other words, No Atheists Allowed in Iceland.”
Iceland!!! Country of my dreams!!! Do you realize how wonderful this stupid law can be if used correctly?
Just create an organization called “the Church of Science”. Designing beliefs, ceremonies and some artwork is not that hard. Then you receive the money from the mandatory tithe. You keep a little of it to pay some permanent staff (accountant, computer system administrator… just a few people actually) at a reasonable level, aligned on the general labour market. The “high priests” themselves, of course, receive no pay. And then, you donate all the rest to research! So, that money that all your friends unwillingly give to fatten some gloomy Lutheran pastors is used for a truly good purpose. And who could be against that?
@ Kim, comment #26:
Thanks, this is clearing up some of the terminology problems I have here.
That asatru, sw. asatro, is related to an Old West Nordic (or Old Norse or Old Icelandic) term for what is åsatru in modern Norse, I get.
But I didn’t get that seid (or seiðr) was the correct term for what I believe is older shaman rituals that was incorporated in asatru. What I have heard is the sami term for the shaman, noajdde (sw. nåjd).
@ Kim, comment #26:
Thanks, this is clearing up some of the terminology problems I have here.
That asatru, sw. asatro, is related to an Old West Nordic (or Old Norse or Old Icelandic) term for what is åsatru in modern Norse, I get.
But I didn’t get that seid (or seiðr) was the correct term for what I believe is older shaman rituals that was incorporated in asatru. What I have heard is the sami term for the shaman, noajdde (sw. nåjd).
I’m not sure I think writing a saga about him would be good punishment. Just saying…
G Felis: msg #86, thanks. “When all else fails, read the instructions,” as my cynical chemistry teacher used to say. Hi Mr. Hertzberg, wherever you are.
tulse: …If people find certain practices and rituals make them feel better and give them meaning, that’s certainly fine. But if there is no actual supernatural belief attached to those practices and rituals, then they’re not a religion, they’re psychotherapy.
I left out talking about supernatural beliefs because the majority of members of this group seem to believe they don’t exist, so why bother?
But now you’re telling me these foolish beliefs are necessary to make something a real religion. Apparently I can’t win with you guys. ~sob~
Another thing that sets neo-paganism apart is that it believes spiritual perceptions and experiences can be taught. It’s not too difficult, either. Working groups will agree whether a ritual worked or flopped, and what bits worked or flopped, and usually what to do next time that would make the flopped portion work better. All this, while still clinging firmly to the possibility that it is ourselves we are invoking, not necessarily a gauzy Aphrodite or an armor clad bloodstained Ares.
In the early days of probing magnetism, people had no idea how magnetism worked, they just knew that if you held this rock near this metal plate, it would fly over there and cling to it. To deny that something happens when people “do religion”, is to deny the rock is clinging to the metal plate.
What is happening — that’s a different matter. We didn’t ignore the lodestones, and now we have these dandy computers.
Noni
AgnosticOracle:
In Heathen Iceland the worst punishment was to be outlawed. It was either permanent or for set period of time. During that time law did not protect you and you could be killed on sight. You lost everything and had to flee. For aggravated assault and robbery there would most likely be a fine or perhaps someone coming to your house and killing you. It pretty much all depended on who you were and who you knew.
I’m one of those strange people who loves the saga style. I can’t help it. I think having a saga written about me would be coolest thing ever! Of course, I live a pretty boring life, so it would probably be the coolest boring book ever ;-)
That is spectacular.
You know, if I ever get sent to prison (which seems increasingly likely every time Bush holds a press conference) I’ll have to remember to mention I’m a Dionysian. My god demands I regularly participate in drunken orgies. Anyone interested in converting?
If I had Thor’s Hammer
I’d hammer in the morning
I’d hammer in the evening
All over this land!
“My god has a hammer.”
A magic hammer.
Speaking of Gods and their attributes. I have a friend who made a shirt that had a picture of the Norse God Frey on it. It said ” My God has a bigger dick than your God” ;-)
Don’t be so sure, Jesus was hung!
I can’t see him winning this suit. They have no tolerance for weird and silly religions in Utah.
Interesting. In Finnish “noita” is “witch, warlock” and “seita” is a Finnicized term for a Saami holy place.
I wonder if there is other evidence for the Seidh being based on Saami shamanism besides the similar names? This (from your Wikipedia link) certainly seems suggestive:
“In Lokasenna Loki accuses Odin of practicing seid, condemning it as an unmanly art. A justification for this may be found in the Ynglinga saga where Snorri opines that following the practice of seid, the practitioner was rendered weak and helpless.”
It’s exactly what the Finno-Ugric shamans did – they used a death-like trance to supposedly travel to the underworld.
Mindbleach, #83, wrote:
Actually that was my point. Objecting to being stereotyped is not to commit the “One true Scotsman” fallacy.
Felis, #96, that is the best explication of practice vs. faith I’ve seen. Thank you!
Noni, #92, wrote:
Of course you can’t win. One thing atheists and theists agree on is the primacy of supernatural belief in religion.
No sense in letting either side define you–it’s just part of the Christian Era weltanschauung.
Ah, Felis was #86. Sometimes even Preview can’t save you from a typo.
I’m just not clear how “religion without belief” is any different from the Elks Club, or the Society for Creative Anachronisms, or the Green Bay Packers Fan Club. If it doesn’t involve supernatural belief, what actually makes it a religion, instead of a club, support group, or therapy?
I’ll say one thing for worshiping Norse-style – What Would Thor Do is generally a lot more entertaining than the xtian alternative. “Get nailed to a tree” is not nearly as fun as “beat a giant to death with a mallet then go cruising for wenches in your goat cart.”
I find myself conflicted…
On one hand, I agree with those who question those who engage in religious practices while not sincerely believing the in the theological basis of said religions…
but, I found myself wishing the other day that the scientific origins of the universe could be “dressed up” a bit with the inspiring trapments often part of religious adulation. Like the enjoyment one feels listening to good music, which goes beyond the facts that its just notes and chords.
Then, Miracle of Miracles!! /sarcasm/ I watched the Evolution video on Duelity.net which did just that!!
I’d really like to know how others feel about this – can we, as beleivers in the strict scientific origin of the universe, revel in it? Or does it lead us down a slippery slope?
Of course we can! Isn’t that was Sagan did? Isn’t that what Gould’s writings were all about? I know that whenever I read a good book on cosmology or evolutionary biology, I have a profound feeling of awe at the way the universe works.