I don’t want to get into this, and am really peeved that this fight over Ophelia Benson has become an issue, so let’s start off gently. Here are some kittens playing in boxes.
How is this relevant, you might wonder. Look, kittens get to choose what box they want to hop into! Wouldn’t it be annoying, though, if there were a referee in the frame, declaring that half the boxes belong to one category, and half to another? That box is a boy box, while that other box is a girl box, and then the referee blows a whistle when a kitten tries to hop from a box of one kind to a box of a different label. And the assignment of labels to boxes is silly: some boxes have invisible “Y”s on them, making them boy boxes, or some boxes are floppier than others making them girl boxes, or we’re going to decide that girl boxes have to be pretty and boy boxes have to be tough and girl boxes have to be one shape and boy boxes have to be a different shape.
I don’t give a damn. Let the kittens chose which box they want to be in, and just accept it — be happy for the kitten who gets to chose. Anybody who tries to impose their arbitrary, outsider distinctions on the kittens is harshing the mellow, and anybody who tries to force a kitten into a different box is just plain wrong, and certainly does not belong at Freethoughtblogs.
This is a network that happily embraces the social justice cause. We select our bloggers from people who are clearly on that side of the cultural divide, and we’re going to kick out anyone who opposes equality for all (we’ve done it once before, and we can do it again). If you do not respect people’s choices, if you try to impose negative views on people’s identities, if you will not tolerate other people’s autonomy, if you think your arbitrary definitions of the ‘right’ sexual orientation, ‘right’ skin color, ‘right’ class, ‘right’ social behavior allow you to judge others, than nope, you really don’t belong here.
On the other hand, this is a freethought network. If you look at that set of boxes and question why society is labeling one set one way and another set a different way, that is appropriate and reasonable. Questioning assumptions and criticizing labels is a good thing; we should be wondering why anyone would even want to dictate the identities of others, and it’s worthwhile to try and puzzle out what criteria others are using to make that decision.
And thus we come to the recent strange contretemps over Ophelia’s blog posts. I think she’s clearly in the freethought category: she asks why culture makes certain identities more acceptable than others. She writes about Caitlyn Jenner, and wonders about this curious phenomenon of the media embracing the ‘glamorous femme’ identity in a way that they wouldn’t if Jenner identified as a woman while not bothering with the appearance Vanity Fair would like. That is not denying Jenner’s choices; it’s trying to tease apart cultural biases.
A couple of problems immediately arise, though. One is dismissable: Ophelia is obstreperous and does not respond with a politic attitude towards questions. She is in a hard and spiky-edged box. But that is her choice, too, and if this blog network started evicting everyone who is impolitic we’d all have to go away, starting with me. Fortunately, we don’t have a niceness rule at FtB.
The second problem, though, is one I’m wrestling with right now. I’m a cis male: I don’t get to tell people with a different perspective how they should feel about Ophelia’s comments. If you’re mad or hurt by them, I’m not going to tell you you shouldn’t feel that way. I can’t. All I know is that I’m treading in a mine field, and I can screw up, and I have to listen when someone tells me not to step there, and that goes for Ophelia, too. It’s also the case that if we choose to stroll in that minefield, we don’t get to demand that others give us step-by-step navigation instructions — it’s on us if we step wrongly and blow ourselves up.
Why else would you think I’ve been really reluctant to speak out on this?
But here’s the bottom line: Ophelia has not been trying to deny anyone their choices; she has not been trying to impose her labels on others. She did take a stroll on the minefield, and it went ka-boom, and she’s going to have to own that. She’s still a member in good standing of a network dedicated to diversity and social justice, and I’m going to oppose any attempt to drive her off. I do wish she could try to reconcile with others, but as a fellow stubborn, assertive person I’m the last one who should push for that.
I am also not happy with the people who have scribbled the label “TERF” on a box and are trying to force her into it, despite her resistance, her clear denial that she supports the rejection of the status of women to trans women, and the lack of any evidence that she in any way does not respect the self-identity of any trans individuals. It’s a campaign built on innuendo and uncharitable interpretations and the assumption that questioning gender roles in society must be an attack on the rights of transgender people.
This whole ugly episode began with the claim that where there’s smoke, there’s fire — which I consider an admission that there is no direct support for the claim at all. I’d also point out that sometimes those signals you’re trying to read are there because someone is trying very hard to blow smoke up your ass. Until there is real concrete evidence that someone is trying to undermine the respect due to an oppressed group, I would hope the members of this community could try a little harder to be more charitable to each other.
I’m not sure that the kittens were enjoying playing in the boxes. It looked to me like some of them froze and others escaped as soon as they could. I feel this is a metaphor for the situation here, but I’m not sure how exactly.
Dianne @ 2
Well, if some do like being in boxes, and some don’t, and some like changing boxes while others find a box and stay, that’s entirely up to the kittens to make the choices of what happens. And if society is telling them that some boxes are better than others or that they just shouldn’t go into some boxes at all, it can be overwhelming to deal with both that and trying to choose if you want a box (and which box, and do you want to stay or continue to jump around).
So Ophelia finds the whole hoopla around Jennar says a lot about the culture and who gets celebrated. Well as a Trans woman myself so do I. Jennar’s story fits a very specific narrative which reinforces a lot of stereotypes. Then there is the whole very rich thing so she can afford $100,000’s in cosmetic surgery, something very few of us can. She is not representative or a spokesperson for any Trans people I know.
Then there is the throwing around of the TERF label which is no longer a descriptor but a synonym for woman who I want to shit up. Don’t maintain lockstep with the Trans activist establishment and even Trans women can get labeled TERF and added to the block bot list for transphobia.
Free thought is all about questioning orthodoxies and received wisdom, unfortunately there is now a Trans orthodoxy that is leaving a lot of Trans people especially Trans men out in the cold.
I absolutely unequivocally agree with everything in this post. Especially also the part about people trying to shove Ophelia into the TERF box.
Thanks for the post. . The two sides went to extremes, one turning over every rock to prove she is a TERF and the other side feeling that any questioning of her statements or acquaintances was the same as calling her a TERF. Both sides escalated until it was out of control and I think both used faulty reasoning to defend their “side”.
I read a lot of reasonable responses from people hurt by Ophelia’s actions but hoping they could get through to her. Most of them weren’t calling her a TERF just trying to express why they were hurt. As a CIS male outside this fray, I will say I learned a lot, I’m sure many others did as well, so that’s one positive to come out of this fiasco.
Thank you for this, PZ.
The only thing I’d disagree with is that Ophelia stepped into a minefield. Somebody dropped mines and asked her to step on them. When she refused. They threw mines all around her, and she stepped on a couple when she tried to move.
This is a good opportunity for me to apologize to OB. My first apology from ten days ago was more of a non-pology, so I’d like to be more clear:
OB, I’m sorry for my hostile comments, I’m sorry for attributing you positions that you don’t support and I’m sorry for reading your words in the most uncharitable way possible.
I’m also sorry for the harassment you’re currently receiving.
Thank you Alexander. I appreciate it.
oh bullshit. it’s not innuendo or uncharitable interpretation to take a joke paralleling trans women with rachel dolezal as transantagonistic. it’s not innuendo or uncharitable interpretation to interpret asking a group created by Elisabeth Hungerford* for resources because “I want to argue back on this claim” in relation to the question “do you believe trans woman are women” as transantagonist. And it is not uncharitable interpretation to consider e.g. her facebook page an unsafe space for trans women when people like Hungerford or Bindel** or Criado-Perez*** are now her facebook friends and when she has a history of telling trans people to not criticize her when she cites these and other transphobes approvingly.
*who actually co-authored a letter to the UN against acknowledging trans rights (http://shadowproof.com/2011/08/10/cathy-brennan-elizabeth-hungerford-take-their-anti-trans-activism-to-the-un/), and who is currently planning on sabotaging a trans survey, the same way MRAs sabotaged the campus rape surveys;
**someone who called trans women “‘men disposing of their genitals”; and whines about “trans-cabals” and “witch hunts” http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/01/10/guardian-columnist-julie-bindel-the-trans-cabal-are-running-a-witch-hunt/
*** http://www.transadvocate.com/et-tu-caroline-criado-perez_n_14058.htm
no, it started with her repeatedly quoting transphopes, repeatedly being told they’re transphobes, repeatedly deleting those criticisms and repeatedly claiming that she never knew these people were transphobes. AND then taunting people who trusted her integrity about not having taken screenshots of those criticisms before she deleted them.
I hoped that since i was gone during the whole thing that I could continue to ignore it, but I feel like I’m deliberately hiding out of cowardice if it keeps coming up and I keep avoiding it. So not that anyone cares what I think, but so I’m not ducking the subject: I basically agree with this post*, and I agree with a lot of how Jason explained it also. I think Ophelia has every right to question the gender binary, and to refuse to discuss things in a way that force her to think of it in a way that she finds odious. But I also see that the question had a lot of context, and I believe the people who said that her refusal to answer it was very hurtful to them, especially the way it all went down.
The (inadequate) analogy I keep thinking of is that if one of my students in a bio class, asked “Do you believe in evolution?” I would give them a long detailed answer about how that isn’t an appropriate question, that belief doesn’t play into it, explaining the nuances of evolutionary theory, etc. But if I was on the street stuck in the middle of a creationist protest in front of a natural history museum and someone asked me “Do you believe in evolution?” I would say “Of course I do”, because at that moment the issue isn’t building an exact accurate verbal and theoretical framework, it’s stating the basic parameters of worldviews, and stating otherwise looks like equivocation. To me, a cis outsider, it looked like the people asking felt like they were in the middle of the melee of that second scenario but Ophelia answered as if she were in the first. And making it more complicated is that it ties so deeply to people’s identities – Ophelia isn’t just spitballing, she’s talking about her own feelings of not being gender binary, and the people reading her responses have a lot of negative history with other people saying very similar things that have led down a road that is very, very bad for them.
Since I’m so far outside of it, I’ll stop there and pre-apologize if I’ve said anything really clueless.
*I especially agree with this part: “I don’t get to tell people with a different perspective how they should feel about Ophelia’s comments. If you’re mad or hurt by them, I’m not going to tell you you shouldn’t feel that way. I can’t. All I know is that I’m treading in a mine field, and I can screw up, and I have to listen when someone tells me not to step there, and that goes for Ophelia, too. It’s also the case that if we choose to stroll in that minefield, we don’t get to demand that others give us step-by-step navigation instructions — it’s on us if we step wrongly and blow ourselves up.”
Jadehawk, while all of your comment’s timeline is true and did happen, I took PZ to mean that the campaign to pigeonhole Ophelia as a TERF is based on lies and uncharitable assumptions — not that trans folk who are upset for those things you mentioned are believing lies or making uncharitable assumptions. I am making the most charitable assumptions I can about PZ’s post.
Likewise with him mistaking Alex’s post for being the catalyst for the issues. He’s more likely defining that as the turning point for when Ophelia started to see her fellow bloggers as attackers. I’d have pinned it to earlier than that, of course, having seen Stephanie’s Facebook post about people making bad arguments in support of Ophelia and pointing out that they were bad also when they were used in service of defending, say, Dawkins. People took that to be a full-on broadside on Ophelia, rather than a demand for more rigor in her defense.
I admired Ophelia for a long time, so I do not by any means say this lightly.
Pz, follow the links that Jade Hawk has provided. See the evidence for what it is. It is not mere “smoke” .
Ophelia, has, unfortunately, been giving aid and comfort to those who repeatedly seek to dox trans women, and thus make them more vulnerable to those who seek to harass them.
I did own it. Twice.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/08/i-did-say/
Yes, Ophelia, you did say that.
But, as the proverb goes, actions speak louder than words. And when your actions have been to:
* Approvingly quote known TERFs, respond to gentle (yes, gentle!) notes that they are TERFs by attacking the commenters who say so and deleting their comments, then gaslighting them by saying you were never told they were TERFs…
* Responding to a question from a trans person about whether or not you recognize their identity by running to a TERF-run group to ask for aid in rebutting…
* Blocking and banning anyone who questions these actions, meanwhile becoming friends with prominent TERFs who have outright advocated against recognizing the rights of trans people to national and international bodies…
* Referring to any and all criticism of this behavior as a “witch hunt” or otherwise a campaign to smear and defame you…
…well, what conclusion are we to draw?
The analogy that most comes to mind is that of someone who repeatedly says “I SAID I was against rape!”, while continuing to argue that women lie about rape a lot, that rape should be harder to prosecute, that there are lots of “grey areas” with regards to consent, and the like.
Yes, you said it. But your actions tell a different story.
I was upset by the hostile, destructive behavior, and tried to steer things in a healthier direction while not getting myself blowed up in the process. I have no idea if it helped, and if I did cause any of the involved parties more pain I am deeply sorry. I hope everyone decides to learn from the mistakes and try to do better in future, rather than hold grudges.
Thank you for this, PZ. I’ve been pretty damn disturbed by this whole thing.
And apropos of the video in a different way: apparently, my reaction of “Awwww!!!” to the kittens (especially the one at ~1:30 waving its front paws in the air) makes me effeminate — not quite a Real Manly Man. This is according to a male friend of mine, who was told that* by some female friends of his. My friend also loves kittens and cats. And no, he doesn’t get it either.
As it happens, another friend currently in transition to living as a woman blogged about how she now feels free to express her appreciation of kittens (which I don’t get, because there was never a time when I felt I had to suppress that, but everyone’s upbringing is different….)
Boxes. Goddamn fucking boxes.
See this is why the campaign is so effective – the distortions and exaggerations and plain falsehoods (no doubt accidental, passed on from others) just get repeated over and over.
Like – “Responding to a question from a trans person about whether or not you recognize their identity”
WRONG. One, I didn’t know the person was trans. Two, that was NOT the question. If it had been I would have said yes of course, just as I said in the post I just quoted.
But nobody will listen (except the people who already know there are masses of falsehoods mixed in with some truth).
I have to go. I look forward to tomorrow, when I’ll find 500 or so more comments giving distorted versions of what I said and did.
I saw the original question. They asked you, flat out: “Are trans women women, yes or no?”
And, y’know, that’s a bit rude, and confrontational, I get that.
But given the gaslighting pattern I mentioned had been going on for a year at least, perhaps that person’s patience was just exhausted.
I know, personally, several of the people who were trying, repeatedly, to explain to you what was problematic about what you were saying and doing with regards to trans issues, and I saw how you responded on several occasions. I know that this didn’t come out of nowhere, and I also know that the people criticizing you are not engaged in a “campaign” against you; they’re just sick and tired of trying to get through to you on how and why you are harming them.
I know that the Slymepit has indeed conducted an actual campaign of harassment and abuse against you, and that’s unequivocally wrong and awful of them. But the trans and nonbinary folks criticizing you here? Aren’t Slymepitters. Most of them have themselves endured harassment from the Slymepit. Your fellow FTB bloggers who have criticized your words and actions recently, you know, have endured that harassment from the ‘Pit as well.
The things they have been saying? Nothing like what the ‘Pit did and does and will continue to do.
llewelly
You have every right to be upset, but could you please refrain from using military terms like aid and comfort? This is not a war, Ophelia is not an informant or spy, and it is entirely unhelpful to cast her in that role. What actions could Ophelia take at this point in the discourse that would help?
@12 carlie— even with the creationist on the street, I’d avoid saying I “believe in” evolution because I suspect that it promotes incorrect ways of thinking; that a creationist denies evolution manifests out of their treating it as a question of “belief” in the first place.
Which is sort of a perfect segue into the incoherent rambling I was planning to make in this post!
So I haven’t actually read Ophelia’s post which means I guess I’m walking into the minefield wearing snowshoes but I suppose I can comment more generally and only explode several times?
So until I started reading the threads on Pharyngula and such places, gender was a very simple concept; if you had a penis, you were male and if you had a vagina, you were female. Whichever group you belonged to, society would try to stuff you into one of two boxes, but that was incidental to the actual fact of gender and needed to stop. Now, here on Pharyngula, I learned that my earlier view of gender is actually called “sex” while the boxes society tries to stuff you in as a result is a “gender” although I hate being forced to use the term “sex” as a noun because being asexual I have had bad experiences with learning – after the fact – that the seemingly innocuous term I thought couldn’t be interpreted any way other than literally was actually a euphemism for sex (as in the verb) in some capacity; “sleep with” being perhaps the worst. So if no one minds, I will say “gender (b)” for biological gender/sex (what bits you have) and “gender (c)” for cultural concept of gender (what box people try to put you in).
So here’s what I’m wondering regarding boxes and “identities” and stuff. Keeping in mind that gender (b) and gender (c) have nothing to do with each other, what exactly does it mean to have a “gender identity?” Simplistically, yes, it means that you feel certain boxes are applicable to you; you fit more easily in the boxes with the invisible Ys so you identify as male, you fit best into the floppy boxes so you identify as female, you fit into arbitrary boxes so you identify as non-binary or gender fluid or any other such term. But the only reason the boxes have gender labels in the first place is because of the conflation of gender (b) and gender (c) by the people who want to stuff you into gender (c) boxes based on your gender (b). Without the idea that there is any such thing as a “masculine trait” or a “feminine trait” (which is a silly social construct that ought to be torn down), the entire concept of a gender identity becomes meaningless.
So just as I’d never tell a creationist that I “believe in” evolution lest I inadvertently confirm that evolution is a question of “belief,” I would never say that I “identify as” male, female, non-binary, or suchlike lest I inadvertently confirm the idea that gender box labels are legitimate in the first place. If you asked my gender, I’d answer by giving you my gender (b)— that is, I’d metaphorically look down and answer based on what reproductive organs I found there. If you asked because I was dressed or acting in a manner that confused your ability to stuff me in a gender (c) box then I would add a mini-lecture on the inherent illegitimacy of gender (c) in the first place.
If you say you “identify as,” say, female, I see no need to question that obviously, but I wonder what exactly you mean by that. If you met a mirror universe counterpart who was exactly the same as you except that he “identified as” male, what would be the difference between you and him? Because if the difference is entirely a function of which boxes the obnoxious referee thinks you “should” be in compared to the ones you fit best in, why would you identify with anything that person says? They seems like an asshole.
The “gaslighting pattern” you mentioned doesn’t exist.
I was following this for a while, at least until I got to the point where I couldn’t deal with the whole cluster****. Note: I have only read about this on FtB blogs, I don’t do Twitter or Facebook or Reddit or any of the other Internet sewers. I _have_ looked at one or two non-FtB blogs by some of the people she accuses of being out to get her.
1. I didn’t see anyone on FtB accuse Ophelia of being a TERF. I did see them accuse her of being friendly with TERFs, or at least being blind to the TERF nature of the people, sites, and memes she was referencing. It’s possible that people have accused her of being a TERF on other sites.
2. On the other hand, she is clearly pretty ignorant about trans issues, but doesn’t seem to feel that that ignorance is any reason not to insist that her views on trans issues are right. She also gets combative and stops listening when people try to explain why she’s wrong. (BTW, there are other areas where she does the same thing.)
3. At this point, she seems to have divided the world into people who agree with her and people who are out to get her. She’s mischaracterized some FtB blog posts that disagree with how she’s handling things as personal attacks on her. I’ve stopped reading her blog because, the last time I looked, most of the posts were about all the people who she feels are against her, and life’s too short.
The unfortunate thing is that there have been some very good conversations in the comment threads to some of her posts. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of comments that treat trans people as topics for academic pilpul and hyperskepticism rather than as human beings, Ophelia Benson’s included, and I don’t have the energy to deal with that any more.
This is not the post to argue whether Ophelia is a TERF or not, or whether Ophelia is giving aid and comfort to TERFs, or whether everyone is unjustly ganging up on Ophelia.
Just stop.
Then what is it for?
Ophelia Benson:
Thank you. But, that is nowhere near as important a problem as you giving aid and comfort to people like Elizabeth Hungerford, Cathy Brennan, Julie Bindel, and so on. Will you repudiate them? Will you reject their dangerous positions?
Jake – yes, but the way people very often react is that when you try to start discussing nuance, they will see that as dissembling. It’s how communication works, and it’s what we learn about speech pattern recognition. Given that, it’s a choice between two bad possibilities: whether to temporarily perpetuate the incorrect framework (just say yes), or whether to erroneously give off identifiable signals indicating the opposite of your actual position. And especially when the framework is one that is generally understood (whether it is correct or not), it does look like avoiding the answer to act as though it’s not.
llewelly, I’m guessing you posted just before PZ, but really, ‘aid and comfort’, again? What do you mean by that?
Sorry PZ, cross posted with you, so if mine fell into that category I apologize and ask for it to be ignored.
First, as a regular B&W reader and general supporter of Ophelia Benson, I would actually like Ophelia Benson to directly address the stances of the people (e.g. Brennan) raised by Jadehawk @11. At some point in the hopefully near future. I also really wish she’d not used terms like “witch hunt”, because yeah, that’s just ferocious hole-digging.
I will also state that I am vastly unfamiliar with much of the social media surrounding this issue, as I don’t use Twitter and use Facebook only sporadically. But I can read bloggers here at FTB, and I would like to remind you that OB was faced with something slightly more than “gentle notes”, right here at FTB (from a full week ago!):
Emphasis mine, in case it’s not obvious.
Yeah, that’s a “gentle note” all right, directly related to the question that (sort of partially maybe) started this whole debacle. That’s a direct accusation that OB is fully, unequivocally anti-trans. And that’s hardly the only such example, it’s just one of the most prominent.
I can’t believe OB would get her feathers ruffled over something as trivial as that! /sarcasm
@ Flewellyn:
What sticks in my craw is that while what OB has done might be indicative of actual held stances, she has not actually done anything on the level of the Brennans and Hungerfords of the world. Maybe I’m wrong and she’s about to go off and lobby the UN, petition state governments, and so forth, but fuck. All you’ve really shown is that she has (very) questionable social media associations and that she’s incredibly defensive in a situation where people are piling on her left and right.
And you know, at least she fucking said something supporting self-determination of trans people, in very specific terms. That’s substantively different than anything Dawkins, Shermer, Harris, etc. have ever done, and why I find those comparisons mindbogglingly insulting. It’s also why I don’t accept statements like:
Maybe we read different rape apologists, but I literally can’t read this in any way other than you directly accusing Ophelia Benson of actively working to sabotage trans rights and activism. I’ve read this at least five times and can’t come up with any other interpretation. Analogy is an imperfect tool, so maybe not, but just WOW. Ophelia isn’t just a TERF, she’s an activist TERF!
For the record, maybe I’m wrong, and maybe Ophelia Benson really is the shifty, secretive, Machiavellian liar out to give “aid and comfort to the enemy” (SERIOUSLY, llewelly? Treason is the go-to comparison for ignoring “constructive criticism”?) so many people are making her out to be. If that turns out to be the case, I’ll eat my hat and admit I was very wrong.
But for now, I’d like to go on record as saying I really fucking doubt it.
P.S. This isn’t even getting into the known interference from actual dishonest actors, and what I can only imagine has been sheer information overload on OB’s part. Maybe a few months from now she’ll show us just what the fuck is in her spam/block folder….
My post written while PZ posted. I’ll stop there.
Pz:
Here is what you wrote previously:
This shows it was you who brought up the topic. People have the impression this is the post for that, because you gave us that impression. If that is a mistake, you contributed strongly to said mistake.
You know, speaking as a trans person, even I’m annoyed by the rules of road on gender discussions (what PZ calls the “minefield.”) I mean, I’m honestly not even sure what I’m supposed to call myself anymore. I used to just say I was “transexual,” but at some point in the last ten years or so we decided that was bad. Then for a while I was transgender, which might still be okay, but I’m not a hundred percent sure. I think I’m ideally supposed to be either a “trans woman” or a “transwoman,” but I can never remember which, and I’m pretty sure it’s considered offensive to use the wrong one.
Which is all to say, yeah sure, we can get a bit nit-picky and hyperbolic at times. But, you know what? When it comes to hyperbolic, there’s nothing like a cis person who thinks they’ve been ganged up on by trans persons. I’ve seen it happen a dozen times or so, and it’s been hilarious in every instance. Cis fragility doesn’t even begin to describe it. You would think they were made of glass, the way they whine. I mean, you think a bunch of people are judging you unfairly and being needlessly hostile, when they barely even know you? Yeah, welcome to my every day.
Flewellyn @21:
So did I, and I recollect it was actually “Do you believe that trans women are women, yes or no?”. There are screencaps available, if you doubt me.
(Confabulation is part of the problem)
A distinction without a meaningful difference, Morales.
” I would hope the members of this community could try a little harder to be more charitable to each other”
Ophelia’s behavior is so beyond reproach reprehensible that this sentence almost would make me laugh if it weren’t so fucking sad.
“This is not the post to argue whether Ophelia is a TERF or not, or whether Ophelia is giving aid and comfort to TERFs, or whether everyone is unjustly ganging up on Ophelia.”
No, what is it for then? Discussing those fucking kittens jumping in a box?
God fucking damnit this used to be sad and now it’s just ridiculous. I can’t wait until Ophelia is off Ftb, but I think I#ll just stop reading it.
Here is an example of “aid and comfort” . Note how she gives a warning to a group which contains several of the people I named. Note their behavior in the comments. There are other examples.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/permalink/605106352926490/?hc_location=ufi
Here is a screenshot of Ophelia Benson saying:
Uncritically quoting a remark which compares trans women to an infamous case of racial appropriation meets the definition of “aid and comfort” .
https://www.facebook.com/dirtynerdy1/photos/a.1571110036504381.1073741828.1557359317879453/1622879101327474/?type=1&permPage=1
Flewellyn @37:
Leaving aside that a paraphrase is not a quotation, for some of us a belief claim is ontologically different to a truth claim, and that distinction is not meaningless.
llewelly,
In your last screencap, the question right above asks something about that comparison, and wondering why it might apply. Ophelia then responded with your quote above. It could be taken a number of ways, if I guessed what the above comment that she was responding to was asking, her response is that people are making the comparison. Not that she is, but that people are talking about it.
according2robyn
I sympathize with your lived experience, but the fact that you have experienced these things does not give you the right to inflict that pain on others. I’m not saying that you personally are acting in this manner, but Jeorge provided an example of the childish, destructive bullying that is being flung around.
I will repeat myself for all. What actions could Ophelia take that would help?
@ 40 llewelly
What’s with the silly screencapping, as though you’re exposing some hidden secret. Why not just link to the damn thing? It hasn’t gone anywhere.
One could say certain individuals were blowing smoke, and then claiming there was a fire. There was no “there” there, but they wanted one to be.
The people who say, “If you don’t agree with this site/blog, don’t read it,” (their own or those they read) are sometimes among the first to tell other people what to say on sites and blogs they disagree with. It’s an easy mistake to make.
I understand that you wanted to avoid this being the post to argue certain things but in your post you said “the lack of any evidence that she in any way does not respect the self-identity of any trans individuals.”
That seems to be the bar that you’ve identified. I sent a message to you directly elsewhere, because I thought it was simply important that you knew what information was out there and you told people to “just stop”, but I think (since it directly addresses something in your post) that it’s appropriate to link this: https://twitter.com/MAMelby/status/626121132899315712
PatrickG:
Secretive? I referenced things Ophelia said publicly. I also do not see what this has to do with “Machiavellian” . As for “liar” – well, as I have shown, she has said somethings which are inconsistent with her claim that she believes trans women are women. But, holding conflicting beliefs is universal among humans, so in this case – it’s not clear to me whether said inconsistency indicates insincerity. Perhaps she is panicked and confused. Perhaps she does not understand who she is giving aid and comfort to. But the actions are harmful either way. It should be kept in mind that I can easily take the risk of allowing for that possibility, but I doubt a trans woman could take that risk. Assuming someone means you no harm when so many people really are out to get you can be very dangerous.
She did not ignore the criticism. She attacked the critics. Finding herself in a hole, she rented industrial mining equipment. I feel the urge to do that quite often, and I can see that she would have more reason to be suspicious and immediately attack back than I would – after all, that is an often necessary habit of being an atheist blogger, especially as a feminist. However – that does not mean her response was not harmful. Regardless of why she did it, it was still a harmful thing to do.
llewelly:
Distinguishing between fact and opinion is not important to some people.
Hopefully you meant: “As for “liar” – well, as I have shown, she has said somethings which some people believe are inconsistent with her claim that she believes trans women are women.”
(But hey, some people probably believe my paraphrase is no different in meaning to what you actually wrote. ;) )
I completely disagree with the charitable interpretations of both Ophelia Benson’s words and actions–not to say that OB is a TERF or that she should be kicked off FTB, but simply that her views are very trans-unfriendly.
After being angry about it all weekend though, I decided I didn’t really want the conflict to escalate, and I don’t read B&W anyway so what do I care. I’m just gonna resolve to talk about trans issues more often.
Ophelia’s playing the victim when the only one responsible for this situation is Ophelia herself.
Of course, that’s nothing new. It’s a typical bullying tactic. As is her gaslighting. (Hint: That denial of gaslighting? That’s exactly what someone who’s gaslighting you would say.)
I think we all need to calm down a bit. PZ already says this isnt the place to debate this. If debate goes on anyway, you better believe he will be pissed off.
Also, John Morales is as unhelpful as ever and is serving as a provocateur (while other sites having this conversation have that role also filled by pitters).
And slightly off topic: M.A. Melby, been reading your coverage of this on your blog and twitter. You have done good, but I also noticed the names Steersman and Noelplum. You know they are pitters, right?
The biggest problem from my perspective is that Ophelia doesn’t own that. Ophelia hasn’t owned that. Ophelia gives every indication that Ophelia will never own that.
I made it clear in another thread that I didn’t think Ophelia is a TERF. I haven’t seen any evidence that would make me change my mind.
Also, I don’t mind noting that some quantity of Ophelia’s comments caused pain after being interpreted in a manner inconsistent with Ophelia’s intent.
But I haven’t seen any evidence Ophelia is trying to determine which interpretations of her statements are legitimate and thus illuminate areas in which her own language (or thinking) is imprecise or problematic or even just wrong. I see no evidence Ophelia is trying to grow and change. I see every evidence that Ophelia wants to continue acting and talking and writing as she always has done… without any consequences. It is this petty resistance to consequences that resembles the rhetoric of the Freeze Peach crowd, not to mention some of the rhetoric of actual TERFs, that makes the content of some of her writing appear so contemptible to some of us, and I’m calling out me in that crowd.
Further, I see anger from Ophelia that people would take a dislike to her or her blog because of how she says things interspersed with statements that she doesn’t give a flying fuck how she’s interpreted, that we’re each free to take her statements as we wish, to feel about them as we wish, and to respond to them how we wish. Most likely each of these positions are expressed with authenticity in the moment, but the basic incompatibility of the 2 makes it hard to believe either.
As far as I can tell, Ophelia wishes credit for being pro-trans while blowing off pro-trans criticism.
This is the very kind of inverted virtue ethics that Pharyngula so often decries. Here we do our best to live by a credo that includes, “No gods; No heroes.” But because Ophelia is “one of the good ones,” it follows – for Ophelia at least – that criticism is unjust.
It’s unlikely that I would be multiply-accused of being a TERF on this website, but if I were, say, multiply-accused of being classist, with people citing examples that I don’t understand as classist, I’d sure as hell listen and try to change. Maybe people mistook my intent. Maybe I was dramatically misinterpreted. However, even if that is the case – and I’m not necessarily in the best position to judge, eh? – I can probably learn something if those folks are pointing out that my rhetoric sounds horrifyingly similar to something from a recent Davos meeting or Koch-sponsored weekend retreat.
I can’t see any effort being made chez Ophelia other than accountability avoidance. Thus efforts like one recently (not this OP) made by PZ in which the entire content is, “Ophelia isn’t a TERF,” may be correct whilst being horrifyingly misguided.
We should loathe accountability avoidance here. If, in the middle of an accountability avoidance effort as large and sustained as that mounted by Ophelia of late there were not SOME erroneous accusations, we should be stunned.
Frankly I don’t give a shit which accusations about Ophelia are correct and which aren’t. I won’t support any, and I won’t go out of my way to knock any down.
Why? Because Ophelia has given no indication that she will take any critical information to heart or use any critical information as a motivation and/or basis for change in behavior, communication, thought, or being.
Unless and until a person is able to internalize criticism and make changes based on that criticism, than any criticism might as well simply be a scream of incoherent rage, hate, scorn, or similar. If a person is actually using criticism to gain new understanding, THEN it becomes important to identify erroneous criticisms so that they don’t waste effort or inspire unproductive or counterproductive changes.
Going out of one’s way to defend a person who isn’t receptive to criticism against the particulars of ONE allegation while leaving others alone only aids and abets accountability avoidance, only reinforces the idea that some persons don’t have to listen to criticism.
I prefer sticking closer to, “No gods; No heroes,” than that.
@ llewelly:
Given PZ’s request, I probably shouldn’t even be responding to your comment. But, seriously, you need to back off of the ridiculous rhetoric of “aid and comfort”, and the like. At this point you must realize you’re literally quoting the definition of treason to the state, which is hardly appropriate given the venue* and topic. Moreover, if you actually feel the urge to do this, and understand where’s she’s coming from … that just makes the treason rhetoric even more inflammatory, particularly since several people have asked you to stop.
* Seriously, on a blog where the collision between trans rights and the military have been extensively discussed (Chelsea Manning, hello?), bringing up “aid and comfort” is fucking poisonous, and makes me question your probity. Can you stop, as of right now? There is quite literally a vast world of language that can help you make your point. You don’t need “aid and comfort”.
Well, wow. I see that my recent choices in unfriending/unfollowing/blocking/unfunding have been spot-on.
Very productive comment, Mr. FancyPants.
@Tethys, #43:
A blog post that says,
What if she had made a comment that people of color thought was pretty racist and offensive, and then ran to some “race realists” for advice on arguing her point? Thanking them for the support. I feel this whole thing would be going in quite a different direction.
Why is intent somewhat magical when it comes to trans issues? Why don’t people “shut up and listen” to trans people who are hurt by certain things? Seems to go this way on a lot of liberal places when the topic is transgender folks.
Just my 2 cents.
lmao – I know they are pitters.
Also, full disclosure, I’ve probably talked to Hungerford much more than Benson has. Hungerford pops in on my twitter occasionally – so do pitters, so do GG’ers, so do other TERFs.
So, I want to make this very clear. It is not speaking-with certain people or even being a member of a group that is a problem – it is what someone actually says or does in relation to those groups. Anything else is (actually) guilt by association.
People that know me and my work know that I challenge Pitters, GG’ers and TERFs on a regular basis. Speaking with them is not participating in or joining their circles. The members of those groups are also individuals, there are some people I have no time for because of the fact that they are straight-up dangerous and others that I do simply have very strong disagreements with – and I let them know that.
Siggy, I think you nailed it and I am going to try to make the same resolution: to be more aware of trans issues and be more vocal about them.
M.A. Melby, you may be a saint then because I would have lost patience with those folks immediately. (That patience I saw is why I thought you may not know, because I did see you criticize them as well. I would lose the will and energy to even bother with that rather quickly, but different strokes for different folks).
WMDKitty:
(Hint: That denial of guilt? That’s exactly what someone who’s innocent would say.)
Silentbob:
Thank you for the direct link.
Note that I previously said:
This indicates I do not believe it is “some hidden secret”. The problem here is not that Ophelia’s behavior is “secret”. It is public, except for a few things she deleted. Those things are not necessary to make the case I am making about why her behavior is risky to trans women, so they don’t support your notion of “secret”. However – they do explain why people took screenshots, and why I kept a link to the screenshot around, and thus, why I used a link to a screenshot rather than a link to the original.
The problem here is that people admire her, or consider her a friend, and thus do not wish to believe she has made comments and befriended people which put trans women at risk. It is never pleasant to think that someone you admire has done something like that – but, unfortunately, it does happen. It is quite common for people to be good on some fronts and terrible on others.
Ophelia deleted some troubling remarks several times in the past. Then, she mocked people for not having screen shots. So, people took screenshots – and a link to a screenshot is what I had available.
Now, you are mocking people for taking the screenshots Ophelia mocked them for not taking! You managed to have it both ways twice in the same comment.
Yeah, fuck off, John Morales
Every criminal claims they’re innocent, every bully claims to be the “real victim” (like Ophelia is doing), and every gaslighter is going to claim they’re not gaslighting, you’re just imagining things…
Crip Dyke
Nobody here has claimed that anyone is above reproach. Ophelia responded to the criticism at 15. Some of us are objecting to the multitude of third parties who turn any attempt at adult discussion leading to conflict resolution into toxic, hostile, abusiveness. It’s maddening behavior from people who claim to be for social justice.
antepro@55:
You seem to think that comments here need to produce something. I’m sure that mine did, just not in your head.
WMDKitty:
Not every one, but I get your drift. Thing is, by that reasoning, both acceptance and denial of an accusation are equally indicative of guilt, as presumably is avoidance of a response. You really think that’s a fair approach?
Well, maybe it’s just my lived experience disinforming my social jargon dynamics, but I just don’t see the equivalence. I mean, in my daily life, I have to conduct business with, and be civil towards, people who literally believe that I don’t have the right to exist.
Meanwhile, on the internet, some awfully mean people are trying to get someone kicked off a blog, just for sounding a lot like a transphobe (or trans-antagonist, or transcontinental railroad, or whatever the hell we’re calling it now.)
And hey, maybe it’s all an innocent misunderstanding. Maybe it’s just a string of foot-in-mouth incidents. That’s plausible, given the number of “landmines” strewn about. As I’ve said already, I’m not even sure I could navigate this minefield without blowing myself up. And, of course, by “blowing myself up”, I mean that people on the internet would be angry at me and then I’d have a sad.
I don’t mean to trivialize the effect of these accusations, but… No, actually, I do mean to trivialize the effect of these accusations. Because once you recognize how trivial the effect of the accusations are, you’re ready for the next step, which is to stop feeling sorry for yourself, to stop being defensive, to stop circling the wagons, to let the ego subside a little, and to just say, “Holy shit, sorry about that! Give me some time to figure out why this is pissing you folks off, and in the meantime I’ll stop running my mouth about stuff you clearly know more about than I do.”
Quoted for fucking truth. To be very explicit, I am a current lukewarm supporter of Ophelia Benson who would like to see her address some issues — specifically Brennan et al — openly and honestly. I’ve said so on her blog — go look it up!
But frankly, I’m not going to take people like llewelly seriously. Might be pattern detection for ‘pitters set to high, but damn, if I were going to derail a thread, I’d probably go about it this way too (treason!). Or I’d be John Morales. But that’s a known problem, and I’d prefer not to emulate. I’m going to stop commenting on this topic because my stake is low and my frustration is high. I care about de-escalation, and I’m very sure I’m not helpful.
I will not be engaging in pointless hostility. I cannot speak for anyone else, but what I mean by “blowing myself up” is to make the situation worse. I do not appreciate being attacked for trying to talk about it, or feeling as if I am hurting people who are already hurt and angry, so goodnight. ( thanks CD for answering my question , I think I understand despite the formatting, and hugs to everyone who will accept them. )
I’m getting tired of this assertion that “troubling remarks,” or Ophelia’s perverse desire to listen (without necessarily agreeing) to people who have been declared “known TERFs,” somehow harms trans people or puts them “at risk.” That vague accusation is a good way to justify hyperbolic attacks, and a very good way to shut down discussion, but it’s unconvincing argument.
I’m pretty sure the people who actually beat, rape, and murder trans people are not reading B&W, or asking themselves, “what is gender, really?”
And can we please stop speaking of “trans people” as a monolith, all of whom feel the same way? Over at Butterflies and Wheels, there have been some fascinating threads in which people–trans people (apparently feeling unharmed), cis people, and people who feel neither label applies to them–have discussed their own experiences, thoughts, and feelings about gender. It’s been moving, and frankly a lot more thought-provoking than the didactic but painstakingly inoffensive stuff I gather we’re all supposed to prefer.
I honestly wish you could read this comment with my eyes. Yes, I’m ribbing you, but you really consider that an attack? Hostility? Anathema to constructive debate? Really? Because a trans-whatever poked fun at you on the internet? Is constructive debate really that fragile? Because constructive debate has always struck me as pretty robust, except in cases where an outgroup has issues with the words or behavior of someone from the ingroup.
Well, for the record: we’re cool as far as I’m concerned. And (teachable moment alert!) I’m genuinely sorry I made you feel bad with my attempts at humor. I should have watched where I was aiming.
@69
Pointing out that some trans people are made uncomfortable by friendliness with TERFs especially Cathy Br3nnan is not an “argument” – it’s a reality.
As I said, I talk to the TERF crew all the damn time – but I do so in the context of disagreeing and challenging them – not parroting their talking points, indignantly remaining ignorant of their politics and public statements, or *laughing about trans identities* WITH them.
Also, the Dear Muslima bullshit needs to stop. Trans people are murdered – therefor stop calling out anti-trans rhetoric is not a valid argument.
I don’t read Butterflies and Wheels very often. I haven’t read whatever comments kicked this off, and I have no idea if OB is a TERF or not. To be honest, I doubt it, but it’s pretty clear from evidence on this thread that she is associating with TERFs, and I did not get the impression that she was being particularly combative towards them. The evidence that M.A. Melby has collected on their twitter feed does not look good for OB. I mean, Cathy Brennan… Cathy fucking Brennan!… comes along and says “That’s a favourite harassment tactic of the SJWs. I’m sorry you’re being harassed”, and your reaction is to thank her, and say you’ve seen it before?
I find that, along with some other things she’s said, very troubling.
Have been staying out of this, on the grounds that I was pretty sure that nothing I could say would be useful. Might have been cowardice, too, or that impulse to tell people to just. stop. fighting. rather than listen to their arguments.
This isn’t the thread to argue about this. Fine. There is no thread to argue about this here. Fine. Blog owner’s choice and all that.
May I simply ask, then, that people consider the context, immediate and greater, of what they say? So many things that would be inoffensive in a more perfect world are offensive at this time in this culture. Can we not merely be kind?
Must go to work now. Won’t be back for hours. As I said, cowardice and so forth.
This is the first I’ve seen of the storm about Ophelia, but I’m surprised by this apparent argument that you get to choose you’re not a transphobe just by saying so.
I must admit I’m just as confused as Flewellyn @ 27. If this was just an announcement, why have a commenting section at all? A thread can be locked at any time, yes?
It’s not my blog, of course, and PZ’s free to do what he wants with any given thread, it just seems odd.
according2robyn, you made me laugh out loud no less than three times, thank you. No one is immune to these things, right?
Wishing this logic would extend beyond ‘kittens’ and ‘boxes’ and into the realm of politics and public policy….
PatrickG:
This is quite ironic, because, if you had followed the links that I gave above, you would see that Elizabeth Hungerford posts the “freethought police” meme, and other memes, which the pitters are also fond of. Why does that not set off your pattern detection for pitters? Of course, loving the same memes doesn’t mean someone is a pitter – but, why does it not set off your pattern detection?
But, since I have been reading pharyngula since the First Dilbonian Invasion, an a event which predated the move to scienceblogs, back when PZ’s avatar was a prickly fish, and he had not yet had much to say about the true love of tentacled things, and I must say that pharyngula has always encouraged criticism – and furthermore, much that has little or nothing to do with slymepitters. Thus, there is much criticism here which does not come from enemies. Further – there are many enemies which have little or nothing to with the slymepitters. But, after the orginal “The Monument” thread on Abbie Smith’s blog got to about 1000 comments, I decided to quit reading her blog, and I have largely ignored the slymepitters’ community since then, aside from occasional efforts to attempt to verify claims about whether someone was a slymepitter. Which I have not done since Jade Hawk’s last big storify about the slymepit.
Furthermore, my comments are directly on the topic which PZ originally chose, It is entirely untrue to say that they are to “derail a thread”. I do risk by continuing after Pz implied people should stop – but, I feel this issue is sufficiently serious that I should continue.
I have said a lot on this already, I will say a few things more, most of them being probably meta-meta
1. There is no “campaign built on” anything. There is a lot of people reacting. Honestly, heartfeltly*. There isn’t any more a campaign against Ophelia Benson then there was a campaign against Tim Hunt. That’s also a pretty serious accusation against your fellow bloggers.
2. I think that most people should stop using the term “TERF” because they don’t know what it means. I think that’s the case for the vast majority of people calling Ophelia Benson a TERF. To my knowlegde nobody who seem to be familiar with actual TERFs has used it.
3. Nobody has ever claimed we must not investigate gender and sex and the binary. There has been a LOT of debate and discussion on this and I will recommend the current posts on Skepchick by Will and Veronica. Claims that “you aren’t even allowed to say anything but praise about Caitlin Jenner” are simply false. I was there. The loudest critique came from trans women. There’s a wonderful hashtag called My Vanity Fair Cover that highlights the diversity of trans women apart from the conventional attractive white woman.
4. Which gets me to my next point. A lot of it is, in my opinion, not even what is being said, but when it is said and what is not being said. It’s not even the dog that didn’t bark, but the dog that soundly slept all night without ever stirring in its sleep. The truely remarkable thing about Caitlin Jenner’s Vanity Fair cover is how unremarkable it is in its style and aesthetics. If people got that upset about a cover displaying a white woman in an conventionally attractive sexy pose and outfit, they’d die of heart attacks very early. It is telling and shows unexamined biases when those categories are suddenly in dire need of questioning when it’s a trans woman, somebody who is much more bound by the construction of stereotypical femaleness.
The same goes for the sudden need to examine the category “women” when the topic is trans women but not each and every time somebody says “women”. We don’t fight for weeks over what “women” means when somebody says that Republicans are attacking women’S reproductive healthcare (though it behooves us to remember that it affects trans mena nd non-binary people as well)
5. Being called transphobic is not a terrible thing. It’s a mundane thing, it’S a thing that happens way too little. it does not mean you’Re a horrible person beyond redemption who must forever be shunned from polite society. Because society is transphobic, just like it’s sexist, and racist, and homophobic.
*Yes, I made that word up.
Ophelia responded to the criticism at 15.
Ophelia quoted herself at 15. The response is drawn from a post on her blog. Unfortunately, that post started with the statement, “It’s too late for this (but then it probably always was), because there are a lot of people just hell-bent on spotting a TERF in the bushes and not changing their view no matter what; the well is thoroughly poisoned and is going to stay that way. The poisoner oolon, who went to Pharyngula to work up the troops against me yesterday, is one such; that dude wants scalps, period.”
This statement really sounds like she’s saying she’s the “real victim” here, but she’ll condescend to admit that maybe she ought to address trans people using the pronouns they prefer. Now where’s her cookie?
Maybe this statement was made in a moment of anger. That happens. But if so it might be time to retract it and apologize. Or, if she can’t bring herself to believe that there aren’t a lot of people “hell bent on spotting a TERF in the bushes”, at least acknowledge that her hurt feelings are less important than the problems trans people face every day.
In short, I’m willing to believe that Ophelia is not an (intentional) TERF and that she wants equality for trans people and all the other right things. But I wish she’d stop acting like a male feminist ally of dubious alliance.
Giliell @79: First, I just want to say that I find the ability to make up words in your second (third? fourth?) language extremely impressive. Second, I agree with your comment.
#71, M.A. Melby:
Saw your screen caps. You’ve got Ophelia dead to rights, talking to TERFs. What you don’t have is her agreeing with TERFs, while Ophelia has plainly and publicly said that trans women are women.
This is exactly what I’m complaining about: the use of circumstantial associations to demand that someone be kicked out of this network. I could just as well cite the familiarity of slymepitters with your blog as evidence of bad behavior…but I know that you oppose their views.
@82: The quote about Rachel Dolezal didn’t disturb you at all? Unless I badly misinterpreted what was going on there (possible-I don’t do twitter and I have been known to get mixed up about who is saying what and what the various “it”s refer to), that seems to me to be agreement with TERFs. Or at least a statement that trans women are not “real” women any more than Dolezal is truly ethnically African-American.
@PZ Myers, but she is all over that “gender critical” page agreeing with the TERFs. Joining in a terrible thread ridiculing a trans woman with a beard, MA linked a comment of hers in response to nasty bigotry. What exactly would you have said in response to that comment? I’d hope it would be some sort of fuck off bigot. She even got her idea for the Caitlyn post from that page, I saw her link the Jezebel post being positive about her photo. Caitlyn is repeatedly misgendered and ridiculed on that page. Would you accept that level of bigotry in a group you were part of?
An example, they helpfully have some suggestions for their trans tokens to be part of the in-crowd. (CN Transmisogyny)
I believe “Pretendbians” is Cathy Brennan’s site. How can anyone calling themselves a “trans ally” be an enthusiastic member of that group? Not once criticize them or point out their bigotry? Ophelia certainly would if it was common or garden misogyny on there!
I certainly wouldn’t associate with Cathy Brennan or her pals — they’re awful people. But I’m also taking into account that Ophelia was taking a heavy battering from her former friends who were calling her a TERF and lobbying for her to be kicked off the network, while the TERFs saw an opportunity to offer support. No one, however, has shown that she was an “enthusiastic member”.
It’s kind of a human thing to turn towards people who are being welcoming and helpful. I would hope that she’d turn away if there were even a hint of reassurance that the rhetorical beatings would stop.
PZ
Could you please show some evidence to support that claim?
I understand if it’s confidential, but then you shouldn’t make that claim.
I haven’t seen Heina, nor Heather, nor Jason, nor Alex, nor Dana call her a TERF or demand she be removed from FtB, nor have Will or others on Skepchick.
Sorry PZ, she has been on there from the beginning of June at the least. I couldn’t stomach going back any further to wade through that mess. So her membership of that group pre-dates any significant pressure on her. (You realize you are having to work hard to rationalize someone you like being part of a hate group? I know the feeling, but I was just a lurker and she wouldn’t know me from Eve)
Also relevant: Storify: Zinnia drops the mic
and
Really?
That’s an excuse to cuddle up to people who harass and endanger trans people’s actual lives? Who get them fired, have their medical care jeopardized, out them? If you banned me here and Michael Shermer would offer his sympathies, would you think ill of me if I accepted them and comiserated with him how horrible you are?
And if we’RE talking of rhetorical beatings, could we please talk about the appropriation of Native American genocide for the horrible injustice of being criticised by people on the net?
Here are a few basic observations:
1) If an FTB blogger had engaged in analogous actions and wrote analogous words regarding forms of prejudice/oppression which were more familiar and more commonly condemned (homophobia, sexism, racism, etc.) we wouldn’t be seeing the level of disagreement and excuse making taking place over this issue.
2) If this were a blogger outside of the FTB network, people would be less divided over calling that person out on these questionable words and actions. If this were a blogger outside of secular/atheist spaces, the hesitation would be nearly non-existent.
3) Issues surrounding anti-transgender prejudice/oppression are still new to people, still highly contested, and as such, still assigned a status that is pretty far down in many people’s priorities. This lower priority effects when and if people bother to act upon instances of prejudice and it effects how committed they are in following through.
Put more simply, I see the secular, atheist, and larger progressive populace as needing to learn a heck of a lot more about trans people’s lives and the prejudice that hems in our lives and diminishes our chances of survival. Once people actually start to grasp the depth of these issues and how they fundamentally impact trans lives on a daily basis, perhaps a reordering of priorities will be the next step.
Y’all are sorting out these details, right now, right here on this blog. This is social change in real time. It’s ugly, stressful, and very human.
Also, I give Ophelia Besons more credit than that. I don’t think she’s driven by other people’S actions, she’s not being made to associate with Cathy Brennan by others who are being mean to her.
She is choosing to act this way, to reply favourably to Cathy Brennan, to associate with people who are actively trying to destroy the lives of trans people. That’s called agency and responsibility and I fing making excuses for her behaviour based on “people are mean to her” to be quite condescending.
So wait:
Enthusiastic member? I posted a few links I found after following MAMelby’s advice and looking at the group for myself. Sharing emojis with TERFs when they suggest horribly transmisogynistic blog posts to help her argue against AbbeyCadabra and her question “Do you believe trans women are women”. Seems enthusiastic to me, but we obviously have different views of what that looks like.
https://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2015/07/trans-ient-amnesia/#comment-419975
The only reason you should be on there, as a feminist, is surely to argue with them? As I said in my comment, call them effing bigots at least, not join in on a thread about a trans woman’s identity being ridiculed with your own snarky comment. Did you not follow MAMelby’s link above? This is damning, but not a word from Ophelia, it is all poisoners and scalpers making up allegations about her based on hearsay.
https://twitter.com/MAMelby/status/626121132899315712/photo/1
Even if we take your view she was driven into the arms of TERFs by mean trans activists (O.o) as valid. That means she is in the arms of TERFs, she is ignoring all criticism of that and blocking trans women left, right and center who point it out.
PZ, you would never accept the argument, “I became an MRA because feminists were mean to me!” It’s very disappointing to see you suggest that Ophelia cozied up to TERFs only because trans activists were mean. If that’s all it took, she was never an ally to begin with.
I would like to see it explained how the Dolezal joke, which totally is a thing that happened, either does not exist or is not transphobic: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/07/glasgow-pride-says-no-drag/comment-page-1/#comment-5229403
Also, TERF group enthusiasm, because apparently this needs to be fucking done (possible Trigger warnings): https://www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/permalink/605106352926490/?hc_location=ufi
Ophelia says:
Please note that people have told her about these people.
In that thread, she also favorably links to this comment on her own blog: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/07/the-art-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-5230045
It is hard to see that as anything as providing an answer of “no” to the question of “are trans women women?”. But NUANCE.
Also from TERF GROUP, just search Ophelia’s name:
Logic fail.
Also in that comment thread she asks for help finding articles to help her argue against oolon.
Yes. That is again something Ophelia actually said. For reals.
Transwomen are just so fucking mainstream now.
And one of her earliest posts is linking to this, and then having a small friendly back-and-forth with the author when they arrive in the group: http://moreradicalwithage.com/2015/04/25/what-i-believe-about-sex-and-gender-part-4/
So can we now, finally, stop the fucking denials and gaslighting about the fucking evidence already?
Carlie @ #12
This (apart from the fact that I would not be capable of teaching biology (or anything else)).
@Antepro,
Ophelia said that? I missed it, totally contradicts her post saying she respects trans identities, again. Her admitting she forgot the group was public makes this all the worst in my view. These are her comments when she thinks no one is looking.
https://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/08/divorce-status/comment-page-1/#comment-5231891
The more I read of this, the clearer it becomes that Ophelia has really fucked up.
She said something transphobic and got called on it. She should have apologized. She didn’t, and a shitstorm breaks loose. Some TERFs offer emotional support… and she accepts it.
That’s the part that’s really bothering me. I’m sorry, but if you’re is a trans ally, then your automatic reaction to known TERFs ought to be to tell them to fuck off. And if you’re having an argument, and Cathy fucking Brennan pops up to sympathise with you and offer you support, you really ought to be wondering whether you’re on the right side of that fight.
When you then start using the resources they recommend to argue your point, then you really need to start questioning the morality of your point.
And can she really not see that these people are using her? They are jumping around with glee right now. Like the FRC if Dan Savage suddenly declared he was straight and found Jesus.
Lots of commotion ’round here recently. I’m not sure whether I’m disappointed or glad that I only learn about it second-hand via these blog posts rather than being in it from the start. It often leaves me a bit confused as to what the hell is going on, yet on the other hand I can’t help but think my enjoyment of this site would suffer, if I was more directly involved.
Well… maybe more like the FRC if Dan Savage started making oblique comments that hinted that maybe being gay was a choice after all. Gleeful anticipation coupled with entirely heartfelt emotional support (because those nasty gays are having a go at him for making such a reasonable point) that’s totally not about nudging him just a bit further along that path and has nothing to do with the resultant PR coup or anything…
Since the “we shalt not discuss why Benson’s a transphobe” dam is spouting leaks, I’ll add my cents. As I put it elsewhere,
I was a fan of Benson, but even this cis-male ally who’s behind the curve on trans* issues has to admit she’s a transphobe. Lately I’ve been reading a lot of TERF websites, trying to find some critical difference between their views and hers, and none is showing up. She uses the same tactics and arguments, shows the same level of support for trans* people (many TERFs are happy to offer solidarity and support for trans* causes, even as they explicitly misgender trans* people), and that would be present even if we didn’t know she hung out with them online.
This is where the gas-lighting charges come from; when confronted with this, Benson’s response is to deny, cover-up, or lie about it. And like Cryp Dyke @52, I’m very pessimistic about her ability to hold herself accountable. I’ve been reading Benson for years, and I too see no attempt at learning from mistakes. Instead, she takes articles like this as harsh criticism of her stance, and fans the flames of hate.
This is not what you’d expect from an innocent person who’d made a mistake, and wants to make right. This is what you’d expect from a bigot who’d been caught out.
squarecircle: Yup. It happened. I suck at facebook so it was difficult to get the link, but here it is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/permalink/598460220257770/
——————————
In addition: Ophelia’s earliest post on the group was from late April. (Here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/permalink/576637755773350/)
Many more posts happened around July 1st.
The current argument (involving the “yes or no” question, oolon’s email, and the joke about Dolezal) started around July 20th.
She has not posted on that group since July 24th (as far as I can tell).
Before this kerfuffle, there was an issue about her post about Caitlyn Jenner, which was in early June.
So just for clarity’s sake, it does NOT appear to be the case that Ophelia has been running into the arms of TERFs to get support, running away from FTB. It still isn’t clear WHY she was a member of that group, or why she said the things she said, agreed with the things she agreed with, and what not, but it wasn’t because we were being mean and she needed a shoulder to cry on. At least not as far as I can see, based on the actual timeline of events. Okay?
The evidence seems pretty damning…the quotes, the links, the defensive reaction to criticism…This thread is all i’ve read about the subject, but it really doesn’t leave much room for argument. The words, they are transphobic.
Uh, can I just point out that Benson’s April post, linked to above by anteprepro, goes straight to a TERF blog?
How about if instead of insisting that she’s an unrepentant child of Satan, you try to explain what you want to do about it?
So far the choice seems to be to brand her with the mark of the TERF and cast her into the outer darkness, or…oh. There is no other possibility. There also doesn’t seem to be anything that she could possibly say that would change people’s minds. So why are you bothering to argue about it?
If she’s not a transphobe, why is she approving of the TERF view of sex and gender? Why is she hanging out in a TERF Facebook group, and following TERF blogs?
I see several people in this thread alone suggesting that, for a start, she could consider apologising and listening to some trans people.
Thanks for saying it, PZ @104. It’s a Cersie Lannister-style walk of shame these fucks apparently want. Nothing less will do.
From anteprepro’s link at #101
Oh. Oh dear.
I hope you have a better way of getting back in time on that group than me, I wouldn’t fancy scrolling past all the hate to April, June was enough. I think you are stalker in chief now btw (;
It just goes to show, trans people saying her blog is full of trans-antagonistic microagressions, cis people ignore them and gaslight them. Trans people are the experts on this, please listen to them in future, even if they are talking about someone you admire. Depressing how much evidence is required before people will believe something that is not at all extraordinary. I’ve lost count of how many trans people have spoken up and been dismissed.
PZ, folks have been presenting evidence only because you and others have so far been unconvinced. They’re arguing about it because you and others have denied any such evidence exists. How about you stop jumping extreme characterizations?
What can Ophelia do? For starters, how about Ophelia actually does what you said she should do? Own the statements she’s made, and admit that they exist, let alone that they are problematic if she believes that? An explanation for why she made those statements, and what she meant by them, would be nice as well. If she currently believes differently, apologizing for those statements would be good.
From there, it’s up to individual people to decide how to view her. At least they’d be able to do so based on a more complete and more honest picture.
PZ
By now you’Re fighting a whole straw army. You’re not engaging seriously with the criticism and the evidence. You keep claiming that people demand XYZ and call her XYZ when all people are doing is to point out her actions. You are sounding exactly like the people you usually ridicule on your blog.
John Morales @65
I’m a survivor of abuse. Gaslighting is a very common tactic, and the whole point is to get the victim to stop trusting their own thoughts and perceptions, and give the abuser greater control.
I’m not going to sit by and watch anyone pull that sort of shit.
And that’s why you should have evidence to support any allegations you make. Seems to me there’s ample evidence that Ophelia is, at the very least, TERF-friendly.
Do you think it’s fair for Ophelia to tell us we’re imagining things? That we’re not seeing what we’re seeing?
Because I don’t. I think that kind of shit is highly problematic, if not outright abusive.
Ophelia doesn’t have to do anything, people are being gaslit about her views here. She is clearly accepting of many hateful views on trans people, she’ll join a group and comment on horribly transmisogynistic threads without a thought. That is literally what she is saying on her blog at the moment, the thread with the “Too last week?” joke is not one she even remembers now.
There is no way in hell she’d ignore or put up with that level of racism or misogyny. Only transmisogyny.
Why is it not a walk of shame when Shermer, Harris or Dawkins have their bigoted views exposed to the bright light of day? Suddenly it is when it is Ophelia, when the bigotry is transmisogyny. This doesn’t look good for FTB’s status as trans friendly, to say the least.
PZ Myers @104:
Uh, I don’t think of her as a child of Satan. As a feminist, my default is to think of people as plastic and capable of change. As someone with a scientific bent, my default is to think that if you present the arguments clearly and with sufficient evidence, your view will win the day. As a humanist, I can see the humanity even in people who wish me dead.
Ophelia Benson may be a bigot (in my view), but she’s not “evil.” That doesn’t exist. When she says she’d never try to harm a trans* person, I believe her.
I’ve been very careful to stick on the “describe” side of the fence, rather than the “proscribe.” It’s not my job to suggest how this blog network is run, at best I can present evidence and let the people who run it decide on that. I’m not calling for Benson to be cast out.
I am asking if you want a transphobe on FtB.
So what do I want (as if it matters)? What do I want people to do about Ophelia? Nothing. What do I want from Ophelia? Maybe an apology, maybe be sensitive in the future, whatever. What do I want from everyone else? Stop treating the trans people and their allies bringing attention to this like they are horrible crusaders baying for fucking blood. Stop dismissing them. Stop pretending they have no case and that there is no evidence. Stop claiming that they are all saying that Ophelia is definitely a TERF totes for real of course. Fucking listen to them and acknowledge their concerns and stop feeding into the narrative going over at Ophelia’s place that the critics are all irrational and/or horrible people manufacturing outrage.
Because that is what has been going on. Ophelia and her supporters are in Defense Mode and are not listening or are actively distorting what the majority of people are actually saying. The critics have been getting louder as a result. But all they want is to be fucking heard. Acknowledged. To have their concerns about trans issues given the same weight as if it had been about gay/lesbian issues, racial issues, women’s issues, and so on. Instead, we have a growing schism. Where Ophelia’s defenders think the critics are overly aggressive, making shit up to be offended about, not being intellectually honest, have an unsophisticated view of gender, and so on. And where Ophelia’s critics are getting increasing pissed off because their views are not being presented or addressed properly. And where the people allegedly in the middle still seem to prefer to ignore that the critics might have a point, and still treat the critics in a patronizing way, or as if they were bad people, instead of people who are legitimately concerned, offended, or even hurt, which is only compounded by their treatment. (And then add in the Slymepit antagonizing and confusing everyone for maximum frustration).
@ PZ and tonyinbatavia
I’m fresh to this, and have been looking at the posted examples given on this thread. She has definitely said some very troubling things before the current kerfuffle kicked off, and has associated and apparently continues to associate with some very horrible people.
That’s a problem.
I’m cis, so can’t really say what will fix this, but I suppose an acknowledgment that she’s said some transphobic things, an apology, and a clear dissociation with those people and their views (backed up with actions) couldn’t hurt. If she sticks by what she said and keeps digging, and keeps associating with those people… well, I’m of the opinion that, in totality, that makes her a transphobe.
I don’t demand anything of Ophelia, I’ve loved reading her blog over the years and I thank her for that enjoyment, but for me this is it. I will not read her, promote her, and I’ll warn my trans friends about her from now on. Her blog is not a safe space for trans people.
I will not, follow her around, post demeaning photoshops of her, harass her at all if I can help it. Although clearly she will think me warning trans people about her is harassment. Sorry, but it just isn’t, avoiding even feminists with TERF-lite views is a serious matter for many trans people.
Honestly, PZ, your 104 is absolutely baffling. Who has been accusing Ophelia of being the great Satan? Who has been saying that we should exorcise Ophelia and there is no other option? Why is that suddenly the focus when just previously the concern was about evidence? Why the sudden, rapid shift? How is this suddenly okay to do when defending Ophelia when this would be considered transparently ridiculous and dishonest debating tactics if it were any other time or place?
“Let the kittens choose which box they want to be in…..”
Video is too damn cute! But seriously, there has to be progressive referees. Should we not try our level best to insure that the kittens don’t choose the Nazi or the misogyny box?
It’s weird. Some people have actually declared her a TERF and demanded that she be kicked out of FtB — I’ve got email and facebook posts asserting these things — and yet somehow I’m supposed to believe that all that’s happening is that people are calmly pointing out her actions. Rephrasing it and saying she’s a transphobe rather than a TERF doesn’t change anything but the terminology.
That’s a transparent attempt to hide behind a Vulcan wall of pure logic. It’s not true! You’re not just pointing things out, there are a lot of furious people howling for retribution here!
PZ:
Evidence needed, also guilt by association.
(Hey, it cuts both ways! Neat!)
Not how it works. The kittens get to choose to stand in a Noncontentious Kitten box and spout hateful shit. If we try to move them to the “Don’t Listen To This Awful Kitten” box, we’re the problem.
This is all super uncomfortable, because an awful lot this of stuff sounds like the sort of response that was given to criticism of Tim Hunt and his sexist remarks – and if that didn’t wash there, why is it applicable here?
@PZ 104
Forget what happens to Ophelia. Mostly, I want people in this community to learn how to better recognize transphobia, and not offer defenses of it. I don’t expect everyone to be enlightened right this instant in this conversation, but in the future it’d just be nice to have people who know that it’s not enough to “politically” recognize transgender people while finding the “ontological” question doubtful.
PZ @120
I asked you exactly about this way back in comment #86.
I cannot read your mail nor your facebook. I read a lot of blogpost and comments and I have not seen that behaviour in those spaces. So how am I supposed to know you’re not talking about the comment sections but about your private conversations?
Wrong. TERF has a specific meaning that is different from transphobe. All TERFs are transphobes, but not vice versa. Ted Cruz is most certainly a transphobe, but I don’t think anybody would accuse him of being a radical feminist.
Also, people have provided ample evidence of Ophelia saying transphobic and transantagonistic things. Trans women have criticised her. To have those concerns dismissed, yes, that makes people angry.
Also, what do people want? Probably the same thing they wanted the last 25 times somebody showed somebigotted behaviour: That the harmful behaviour stops.
PZ@120:
Alright, so the people that are saying they aren’t calling Ophelia a TERF and trying to run her off the blog aren’t able to say the same thing about the people on e-mail and facebook. That doesn’t mean that the folks here are in lockstep with the folks there. Expecting folks here to answer for the words of the folks there is, at best, unproductive. This isn’t some big coordinated movement against Ophelia all with the same beliefs and expectations.
You’re talking to people in this thread; how about actually talking to them?
Personally, I’m not saying she’s a TERF. I’m saying that there is clear and unequivocal evidence that she associates with known TERFs and has said some transphobic things. Thus far, she is refusing to cease that association or apologise for those things.
Someone who says transphobic things and hangs out with transphobes is a transphobe. Sorry PZ, but there’s no way around that. In my personal opinion, I’d give things a chance to calm down and see if Ophelia, once she’s calmed down, changes her stance before applying the TERF or Transphobe label. But if the shoe fits…
What baffles me is not so much the transphobic attitudes, actions and words, which are too obiquitous to be surprising, but the refusal to acknowledge the fuck up and do anything about it. Instead of anything resembling acknowledgement and willingness to do any work on the subject, what people are getting is denial, denial, denial and a massive dollop of fabricated victimhood. I personally have no trouble seeing how that is really getting on people’s nerves, big time. You can’t expect people to move on and stop pointing out a clear problem, when not only is there no resolution, but a shit load of denial. It’s not reasonable to demand that people let it go when all they are offered is further agravation.
Others have already pointed out that the same dinamic has not been tolerated in other circumstances…in fact, it has been the main source of criticism as it’s the doubling down that causes the most damage. There is no valid argument to make an exception on this instance.
How about instead of contributing to the overblown hyperbole, you read the posts where people have already explicitly answered that. E.g. a quick scan down the thread gives me Crip Dyke #56 and dianne #80.
What do you mean by that, exactly? What do you think people are actually asking for? All I’ve seen is requests for an apology for saying hurtful things, and hopefully some introspection and more thinking before writing on trans issues.
Even just at the level of “taking ownership of it”, taking ownership of the bomb you just blew up means acknowledging that people have the right to decide that they simply will not associate with you any more, no matter what you do to explain it, and they ought to have the right to do that without being branded as haters. There are people who are saying they have been hurt so badly by this that they personally can’t trust reading that blog any more, and won’t encourage others to read it. Accepting that there are people who will make that decision, without branding it as a personal attack, is one way to take ownership of it.
Also, you know it is funny, because the people Ophelia calls in her posts out aren’t calling for blood either.
Oolon, poisoner, scalper, is not actually calling for her removal as far as I have read from him, and was actually hoping to confirm that things weren’t as bad as they seemed when they asked questions of her.
M.A. Melby, “the worst”, has been nothing but reasonable: https://sinmantyx.wordpress.com/2015/07/25/some-stuff-about-the-ophelia-benson-dust-up/
Jadehawk, mocked for doing screencapping, has not called for blood that I am aware of.
Abbeycadabra, who brought up the original “yes or no” question and is now banned, while also being mentioned in a recent post of Ophelia’s and blamed for “ruining the last few weeks of her life” (paraphrase), has also been fairly reasonable as far as I have seen.
Improbable Joe, who mentioned feeling hurt over all of this, was mocked for feeling that way, and had a “friends only” facebook post publicized by Ophelia. It is entirely possible that he called her TERF or wanted her axed, but I have not seen that.
Others on the network:
Jason agrees with PZ’s post here and has not been too extreme (the worst thing so far is accusing Ophelia of “paranoia”) and yet was dismissed as a creepy stalker.
Heina offered her own answer to the question of “are trans women women?” and was dismissed as being “nasty and insinuating”. (And of course commenters on the thread immediately imagined that she called Ophelia a TERF. Huh. Pattern). She insisted that she wasn’t insinuating anything, but Ophelia and her commenters knew better.
Zinnia made some strong statements about the issue but was ignored. Her co-blogger, Heather, made a post that was characterized as “garbage”, and Ophelia characterized both Heina and Heather of calling her an “Evil Transphobe”.
And Alex Gabriel, whose thread is merely mentioned, and also has not been calling for her expulsion.
anteprepro
Small correction. The “friends only” post was by another person and not by Joe. But you’re correct in everything you said
Giliell: Ahh. I see. Here’s the post in question, by the way:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/07/the-destroyer-of-worlds/
Ophelia removed the screengrab, and the name of the person question. But still retained the quote, referring to medication they were taking to help deal with stress caused by all of this. And was another post Ophelia simply mocked. And another post that had nothing to do with Ophelia simply being a TERF that needed to be excised from FTB ASAP.
And please, for the love of fuck, do not mischaracterize me as saying that no one is making the TERF accusation and that no one is calling for Ophelia to be punished or removed. My stance is simple: That such people are a vocal minority. Which, honestly, is not that difficult of a concept.
(Clarity: Paragraphs two and three are general, not directed at Giliell)
@107
Ah yes, the familiar sound of hyperbolic mischaracterisations…you could have gone with Witch Hunt or mentioned Lynching. Comparing this to a fictional event in a tv-series is a new one…
anteprepro @131
Dana Hunter also had a post, which was mostly a general ally-ship post, with links to resources.
Starting around 1:40 in the video, what is that cat in the lower left doing?
Hi all, long time lurker, very occasional commenter here. Can’t keep bottled up any longer. This is all just so awful, what’s going on.
From Ophelia’s A horribly effective silencer post (with emphasis added):
This is a big part of the on-going problem. Ophelia Benson clearly has no problem denouncing the views of people who are now criticizing her but she can’t be bothered to denounce any of the harmful views espoused by the likes of Hungerford? She has time enough to write more than a dozen posts (or is multiple dozen at this point?) about how unfair everyone is being, how much of a victim she is, etc. But she doesn’t have a few minutes to look into the people she has befriended and the harmful views those people espouse? She has time enough to post over and over and over about all the mean things people are saying about her but she doesn’t have a few minutes to look into the UN letter and see if what trans people (and our allies) have said about it are true?
This speaks volumes about Ophelia Benson’s priorities. Her own hurt feelings appear to he more important to her than anything anyone else has said in this whole clusterfuck. That’s just going by what she chooses to write about day by day.
In response to Professor Myers @104 who asked that people “try to explain what you want to do about it” here are some suggestions that might help.
Stop digging. Just stop. Stop posting about how mean everyone is being to you, and start listening to what people are actually saying. Stop making excuses for not being familiar enough with the harmful views and actions of people you choose to associate with and take some time to go educate yourself about that right now. Not sometime down the road if and when you get around to it but literally right now. Please don’t post anything else until you do that. That would be a good start at least.
Beyond that several people on this network have written in the past about how to listen to people when they are telling you that you screwed up and how to properly apologize when that happens. Some of that guidance seems applicable here.
Right now Professor Myers and Ophelia Benson are putting on a clinic for how not to handle these situations and it’s just awful to see.
Here is the latest hit: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/08/a-horribly-effective-silencer/
Her defense regarding the facebook group specifically is three-fold:
1. It is disgusting to observe her public facebook group posting habits.
2. The Facebook says it has a “range of views”. RANGE OF VIEWS. It says it, so it must be true!
3. I was Just Joking!
I don’t even. I just don’t even anymore.
QFT!
If you don’t know who E. Hungerford is this far into the “witch hunt” then what have you been doing? Person after person has been telling her in public, and apparently in private, that she is skirting TERFdom at best and she’s not even looked up the UN letter? First commenter on that post points out how easy it is to find and how awful it is to trans people. But she hasn’t been bothered to look it up for herself at any point. Just makes her look lazy when it comes to transmisogyny again, in a way she absolutely wouldn’t be normally. Please stop digging Ophelia Benson.
Tried to read the comments but I am stopping at 28.
So, posting on an FB site that says this at the top of the page (taken from OBs comment 176 on post divorce-status):
…is giving aid and comfort to TERFs.
Then Jadehawk’s bullshit comment @ 11that provides links to exactly nothing that OB has done, though they are directly quoting her (I’ll bet good, hard-earned money they’re incorrectly quoting her):
Forget the money, Jadehawk, let’s see what she said, from comment 15 on divorce-status:
Here’s the link; have fun scrolling. https://www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/permalink/604763966294062/
It’s too much. I bet when I scroll to the last few comments, I’ll find much the same bullshit distortions and very uncharitable interpretations. There is no dialogue here to be had.
Taking the group at face value based on its description is very skeptical of you, noxiousnan.
squarecircle@140
Do you know that? Ophelia Benson said that the letter “looks like a bad idea to me.”
BTW, this is what Elizabeth Hungerford is up to right now.
Yep, actively sabotaging a trans survey so she can later claim the results are invalid.
That’s like MRAs making uo false rape accusations to prove they exist.
@141 –
That’s a funny coincidence, I decided to stop reading your comment at that sentence.
@We Are Plethora #138:
And yet when Gia Milinovich turned up on Benson’s Facebook to join the TERF love-bombing session, Benson claimed to have had time to “read up” on the cult-like bullies who’ve been giving Gia the “sharp end of this crap for nearly 2 years now” (all Gia’s words). Benson “was horrified” by that. She blocked me for noticing it, because reading a thing that popped into my Facebook feed makes me a creepy monitor.
I’ve read Ophelia’s blog for years, and I’ve been an avid commenter there and a friend of hers on Facebook. I don’t think she’s evil, but I also think a lot of her comments (including comments on Facebook that I haven’t yet seen anyone bring up) and comments from her supporters are transphobic, particularly her continued flippant usage of the “identification” notion, as though a trans woman “identifying as” female is exactly as ridiculous as her “identifying as” an Oxfordian or an African-American or someone with magical super-powers or an insect. I think the defenses and defensiveness offered up in response to criticism are exactly the same nonsense we’ve seen from defenders of people like Tim Hunt, right down to comparisons to dogmatic McCarthyist witch hunts and Scarlet Letters (the references to scalpers is a new, awesomely racist innovation in hyperbole). I’ve seen a lot of comments about her critics that are more name-calling than substance, and at least one comment about one critic’s motivations (from a holier-than-thou brief commenter in this thread) that, if posted on a thread like this, would be recognized as some really toxic ableism. Just as there may be stuff in PZ’s inbox that the commenters here aren’t aware of, there’s a bunch of stuff on Facebook that I sighed and scrolled quickly past for the last month or two.
There may be critics out for (metaphorical) blood, but they aren’t the prominent ones, and from what’s been publicly posted, they aren’t the ones who are also FTBloggers. Benson and her supporters have made a lot of noise, acting as if all her critics are just on some vendetta for disingenuous reasons, but that’s not the case. At least some of us were ardent supporters who are deeply disappointed to see this kind of behavior—behavior we’ve all seen and called out before—from someone we like and respect.
Yes anteprepro, I think it’s a good idea to take people and groups at face value, until shown otherwise.
I see that more as charitable than unskeptical.
What you would consider a skeptical interpretation of their statement? Do you feel they put that there for plausible deniability or to lure in uninformed or on-the-fence feminists? Do you give no leeway to an innocent random, non-feminist, uninformed person who might happen upon it and have questions? How would that person prove to you they weren’t TERFy?
I don’t particularly want to hash this whole argument out right here, largely because I’m happy for that post to speak for itself, so I doubt I’ll be commenting further, but on a point of information: no, it didn’t.
It started with a post at B&W a number of people perceived as trans-antagonistic. It continued with a post of mine disagreeing in general, non-personalised terms while saying other things; then with Ophelia complaining, once others mentioned past behaviour they perceived as trans-antagonistic in a Facebook thread of mine, that she ‘didn’t know’ Julie Bindel had well-publicised anti-trans views and was being expected to people’s word for that – a complaint I found reminiscent of atheists saying harassment claims either had to be dismissed out of hand or taken on faith.
Here are the words with which the post began to which you’re alluding:
That’s not a claim ‘that where there’s smoke, there’s fire’. It’s explicitly the opposite.
What I go on to say, to answer your point about making charitable assumptions, is that there comes a point when insistently assuming the best involves sticking your fingers in your ears – when giving someone the benefit of the doubt whose statements are regularly ambiguous enough that they may suggest transphobia runs the risk of giving bigotry a free pass, with their ambiguity a smokescreen. It wouldn’t surprise me if that concern, after the asker felt charity was being exploited, was why Ophelia was asked directly if she thought trans women were women.
What I said then, I stand by now.
noxiousnan, it has already been shown to be otherwise. You can look for the explanations, quotes and paraphrases of what people had said elsewhere, you can see references in this very thread, or you could go look for yourself. Just reading their generalized description, quoting that, dusting off your hands and saying “well that settles that” is just fucking ridiculous.
Well, I tried pointing out (in response to this comment) that it’s not correct that Ophelia’s critics generally are trying to blackball her. I admitted that it was possible I had missed some who did (and invited examples), but that presenting it as the general attitude was false.
I used no strong language, nor did I even criticize Ophelia herself. Nonetheless, my comment was promptly deleted.
So, now I’m not sure how to proceed. It’s her blog, of course. Her word is law. However, if even pointing out reality earns you a deletion, there hardly seems to be any point in posting at B&W anymore. That makes me sad. It’s not the critics that are driving me away. It’s Ophelia herself.
@qwints, You are right, it is possible she has read it, looked it up and not managed to come to the obvious conclusion that Hungerford is a TERF and harmful. How someone can do that I don’t know, she literally petitioned the UN to remove human rights from trans people. How obvious does it have to be before her defenders will admit someone is a TERF. Maybe Cathy Brennan is the only TERF alive? You put it well yourself, in regard to the letter –
So we are back to Ophelia being uncharacteristically dim, not reading or listening to a thing trans people have to say about Hungerford or the UN letter. Hungerford by the way describes herself as a TERF, she literally advocates for trans women to be excluded from “female” spaces. At least she is honest about it, you have to give her that.
OMG, just checking out @MAMelby on Twitter. Why are we even having this conversation? Ophelia is not a trans ally, and that’s an understatement!
https://twitter.com/MAMelby/status/629004873481195520
yazikus:
And, also, PZ:
How do you interpret this conceptually similar comment?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=926085400782597&set=a.920159594708511&type=1&permPage=1
You know, I’ve been on the receiving end of this kind of campaign before. You’re all sounding like Michael Nugent, the Mouth of the Slymepit: according to him, I’m a homicidal monster who connived to railroad an innocent young woman who threatened to accuse me of rape, which apparently, according to a mob on twitter, I’m guilty of. If all you do is look over any voluble person’s record on the internet, you can find words and phrases you can twist or take out of context to support any nefarious claim you want. You just have to ignore 99% of what they say!
This is not to say Ophelia hasn’t screwed up or been intemperate (just as I wouldn’t say I’ve never done that, either), but that there’s an obsessive pursuit of every detail of her internet presence explicitly calculated with an intent to reach a predetermined conclusion. I’m also disappointed that, while she’s been reluctant to own her own errors, you all have been rather dishonest in admitting to your own agenda: you’re pissed off, you’re looking to score points, and hoping to drive Ophelia off this network altogether. Every time you claim you aren’t, I just have to roll my eyes.
There is no interest in honestly improving her awareness of trans issues at all — as if she were somehow completely opposed to any kind of social justice concerns at all — and clearly this thread has just become another opportunity to rage away. So it’s closed. It’ll stay that way, since the angry finger-pointing is completely unproductive.