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Jun 11 2013

This magazine ought to be popular

I’ve heard people say versions of every single article title on that cover.

fedoradgentleman

(via Nice Things For Awful People)

198 comments

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  1. 1
    Jafafa Hots

    Is it just me or is something broken about the blog?

    Or is this the new format? A wordpress template named “print terminal?”

  2. 2
    Jafafa Hots

    Whoa. Commenting fixed it. Was having the same problem with every post, and commenting on one fixed it.
    Wizardry.

  3. 3
    CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain

    Is the guy in the hat significant, too?
    *google similar-image search* Oh.

    Article: KnowYourMeme – Fedora Shaming

  4. 4
    Ingdigo Jump

    Well this has convinced me to throw out all my hats

  5. 5
    Sili

    Why is all hats called fedoras? (fedorae?)

  6. 6
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Sili

    Just to be safe, all. Also caps are hideous stupid hats

  7. 7
    Chris Clarke

    From my cold dead hands.

  8. 8
    Menyambal

    Why being an atheist is heroic? I think it’s time:

    Poseur is a pejorative term, often used in the punk, heavy metal, hip hop, and goth subcultures, or the skateboarding and surfing communities, to describe a person who copies the dress, speech, and/or mannerisms of a group or subculture, generally for attaining acceptability within the group or for popularity among various other groups, yet who is deemed not to share or understand the values or philosophy of the subculture. – Wikipedia

  9. 9
    anchor

    Jafafa: indeed – I believe there seems to have been an anti-FtB escapade afoot there for the puzzling most part of an hour. (Featuring a bizarre set of antiquated ‘error’ pages – featuring Amiga and CompuServe by implication). Apparently rectified now.

    By golly, the weirdness was almost entertaining while it lasted.

    I’ve noticed funny gags increasingly lately. Hope the culprits remember to wipe the wet snot from their noses…their sleeves would be icky – if they had sleeves.

  10. 10
    Useless

    When did The Onion start publishing magazines? Thank God, it’s another magazine that isn’t afraid to tell the Truth. These poor guys have suffered too long.

  11. 11
    Zeno

    But a dark fedora with a bright red ribbon is the perfect special event hat for gentlemen of Portuguese descent. My nephew looks quite natty in one.

  12. 12
    Cerberus is working overtime at the outrage factory

    I think I’m starting to become a little infuriated with the oppression cosplayers.

    The over-privileged, oppression-cheering, status-quo-upholding bigoted scum who nonetheless want to walk in front of their victims in their best imitations of what they think oppression looks like in a desperate bid to self-justify their cowardly decisions to punch down instead of up.

    As someone who has had an… interesting year to say the least because I simply existed in ways that made others think, I just don’t have any sympathies to give to someone so without real complaint that they can’t even guess at what it really looks like to be an abused minority, truly without equality and support. Especially when it’s all such a clear attempt to enforce an older status quo and resist overdue justice by trying to pretend that a fictional past was the true “equilibrium point” and everything past is “reverse discrimination”.

    It’s part of a larger pattern of behavior, first modeled by the right-wing with works like Liberal Fascism, but has expanded to all the various defenders of the status quo against the “uppity minorities”, of IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION. Of claiming that their victims’ righteousness is the righteousness of the bully and that the bully’s vileness is the crimes of their victims in asking them to stop.

    Which is in and of itself a pattern where all the defenders of the status quo are blending together into the same force of bullies and authoritarians in the same way as recognition of intersectionality is helping their victims find common ground themselves.

    Which is probably why all these assholes, in all these communities are sounding like the same people. Because they are the same people. And they are sharing the tactics they can to try and disrupt something that is already happening. Which is that their victims are comparing notes and those who would once nod with approval at one little shred are asked to truly examine what it is the bullies are saying about everyone and what that truly means.

    Along with what it truly means to be oppressed rather than trying its language on for a night on the town.

  13. 13
    PatrickG

    I needed that laugh. Or really, rumbling belly-snort more than a laugh. Either way…

  14. 14
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    This magazine ought to be popular

    I’d have thought this magazine actually ought to be unpopular – but probably instead would be popular?

    Also that doesn’t look like a gentleman or even a gentleman’s magazine. An MRA scumbags maybe but they aren’t “gentlemen” – hint a gentleman actually respects women and treats them well and with consideration. At least as I understand the term, I could be mistaken.

    Nah, think I’ll stick to my astronomy magazines thanks all the same PZ.

  15. 15
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    My one line answers to fedora “gentleman” articles :

    Nice guys first last

    Yes because they’re good lovers and get more pleasure from it as well as their partners too.

    Why she goes for the asshole

    Hint : “Assholes” ain’t (really) assholes maybe – or perhaps its just where she wants to kick you?

    Escaping the friend zone

    Best NOT done by entering the creepy stalker zone or the ‘I-can’t-believe-the-X-friend-is-such-a douche!’ zone.

    Libertarianism – you’re free to believe something else but why would you?

    Oh about a million reasons starting with the fact that it doesn’t work and also, well, libertarians!

    Does that really count as rape?

    Y’know if you find you have to ask that question then, yes, it probably does!

    Three words for you – enthusiastic consent required!

    Overcoming Feminazis in ten easy steps

    Step one recognise that there’s no such thing as a “feminazi”, its just an MRA straw person on steroids steps two to ten – repeat step one, because fact.

    But what about men’s rights?

    Yes, they’re not just for men – men’s rights apply to women equally too.

    Misandry – its real and dangerous

    In the one Amazonian tribe lost in the mists of Greek legend and the South American rainforest, elsewhere, not-so-much.

    Why being an atheist is heroic

    No snark here – just profiles /interviews /stories from / by / about of Jessica Ahlquist, Rebecca Watson, Taslima Nasreen and a few other examples of people who’ve suffered or faced extraordinarily horrible attacks because they were outspoken atheists – among other things.

    Interview with Chris Brown – what’s his side of the story?

    Who?

    (Wiki-checks. Oh there appears to be rather a lot of them : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Brown )

    Are we talking the Native American dancer and costume maker? That could be good. Or the journalist but if the latter they got the gender pronoun wrong? Sub-editor come here at once!

    Men are stronger : its just biology

    So they can do more of the housework and childcare too then?

    Put to the test recently on radio by having men simulate childbirth, a weird experiment, turns out they’re not.

    Biology also say diarrhoea and smallpox are deadly diseases but it doesn’t mean we have to go along with that these days either.

  16. 16
    laurentweppe

    It lacks the definitive article:

    Objectivism:
    Face it: you are inherently superior to the rubes and anyone who disagrees with that is nothing more than a mentally deficient lackey suitable only for menial labor.

  17. 17
    Dave W

    StevoR @15: They’re referring to the Chris Brown who requires a trigger warning.

  18. 18
    w00dview

    I imagine Justin Vacula or Reap Paden would look at this cover and quietly think to themselves “At last, a media outlet that GETS IT.”

    @ laurentweppe
    Objectivism would require an entire special issue to truly convey the reader’s superiority. Hell Atlas Shrugged is a thousand pages long, I think Objectivism couldn’t be contained within a single article either.

  19. 19
    ChasCPeterson

    hee hee

  20. 20
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @17. Dave W : StevoR @15: They’re referring to the Chris Brown who requires a trigger warning.

    Okay. Cheers. Think I prefer pretty much all the other Chris Brown’s out there.

  21. 21
    ChasCPeterson

    Chris Clarke: No worries. You get a pass if:
    > you’re over 50 years old, nad
    > your fedora is a dirty field-hat and not a crisp, clean affectation-hat, and
    > you wear it outside when the sun’s out or it’s raining, but
    > you don’t wear it indoors, in the bar, at night.

  22. 22
    borax

    Don’t hate on the fedora. In the winter I switch out between a broad brimmed dark green fedora and a broad brimmed black fedora. Both are made of heavy duty felt and retain their shape when rained and snowed upon. In the summer I wear a straw panama hat. Its those stingy brimmed hat wearers that give the rest of us a bad name.

  23. 23
    PZ Myers

    Yeah, I like the fedora — it’s a nice hat. It’s unfortunate that it’s become a proxy target for hating hipsters.

    Back when hats were popular, like in the 50s, you’d find hatstands or hooks in every house and business, and people would take off the hat they sensibly wore outdoors. Wearing a hat inside is an affectation that is one factor in their current status as a marker for assholery, I think. Just like those people who wear sunglasses indoors look like idiots.

  24. 24
    muzakbox

    I’m going to my local version of Comicon, Connecticon, and on the schedule is a panel called how to escape the friend zone. I was ill when I read that.

  25. 25
    Trebuchet

    I wouldn’t even classify that hat as a fedora. Think Indiana Jones.

  26. 26
    Cynickal

    The fedora is a useful tool for determining the validity of a person’s critical thinking. If someone calls a Trilby a Fedora, they lack proper analytical observation skills.

  27. 27
    myeck waters

    Or they just don’t know their hats.

  28. 28
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I’m sorry fedora wearers, but it’s not us who notice the kind of men who overwhelmingly wear these that is the problem. The problem is that, for some reason, it really is the douche brigade that has popularized them. That’s not “hating on fedoras,” and it’s not a slur on your personal character. Not our fault it got co-opted.

  29. 29
    Sili

    Just like those people who wear sunglasses indoors look like idiots.

    Apropos.

    I was getting annoyed with a couple loudly discussing the selections and discounts in the supermarket the other day. Even more so, when I noticed the guy wearing sunglasses indoors.

    And then thirty seconds later, I realised he was blind, and the woman with him, had to read out the signs for him.

    Oooops.

  30. 30
    rq

    Fedoras are awesome, as long as they’re worn outdoors.
    And sunglasses inside? Please. Some people wear them at night.

  31. 31
    inflection

    I frequent a role-playing games forum, which tends to have fairly intelligent discussion of related issues. Recently, a poster popped up and asked for help designing a matriarchy for a low-tech fantasy game.

    It was amazing the lengths some posters would go, to avoid admitting even the possibility of a matriarchy existing under real-world conditions. There was one vigorous participant in the conversation who, while he never said it explicitly, had a very clear threshold — if you invoked any sort of magical explanation he was fine, but anything alt-historical or leveraging unusual circumstances alone was not.

    Any real-world approach to matriarchy, he repeatedly claimed, would instantly be undermined by rebellious men and invading hordes of muscular, aggressive male armies of savage neighbors.

    After a few rounds of this conversation, I finally thought I had him nailed. If by hook or by crook some slight step toward female control happened, and any kind of advantage accrued from removing the most violent members of society from the vicinity of others, then all our writer has to do is arrange circumstances to magnify that advantage and minimize the costs into something self-sustaining. If you claim this is impossible, then your claim is that men are the equals of women in leadership in all areas except where they are better. Surely, I thought, this explicitly sexist formulation of his position would cause him to stop and reconsider, or at least become defensive.

    Ha ha. O Internet.

  32. 32
    UnknownEric the Apostate

    And sunglasses inside? Please. Some people wear them at night.

    Don’t switch the blade on a guy in shades. Oh no.

  33. 33
    Pierce R. Butler

    A comment from ekwhite in the following thread made me notice a strange deficiency in this one: why has nobody here yet used the word “asshat”?

  34. 34
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    …what do fedoras have to do with any of that? Has mindless “hipster”-bashing finally run its course and the shallow have moved onto a new target-of-the-week?

  35. 35
    myeck waters

    Hatters gonna hat.

  36. 36
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Yes, Azkyroth. We shallow have mindlessly picked this one thing at random when there’s no indication whatsoever that it’s unfortunately identifiable with a subculture. Random. Thoughtless.

  37. 37
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Yeah, I like the fedora — it’s a nice hat. It’s unfortunate that it’s become a proxy target for hating hipsters.

    Oh, that explains it.

    Am I the only adult on earth who doesn’t think back to the clique bullying in high school and think “at last, now it’s MY TURN!”

  38. 38
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Yes, Azkyroth. We shallow have mindlessly picked this one thing at random when there’s no indication whatsoever that it’s unfortunately identifiable with a subculture. Random. Thoughtless.

    …biiiiiiiig yes.

  39. 39
    Rey Fox

    I’ve always hated the word “asshat”, that’s why. It doesn’t make sense to me. And we already have “asshole”, which might be kinda old, but it’s withstood the test of time.

  40. 40
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I’m sorry fedora wearers, but it’s not us who notice the kind of men who overwhelmingly wear these that is the problem. The problem is that, for some reason, it really is the douche brigade that has popularized them. That’s not “hating on fedoras,” and it’s not a slur on your personal character. Not our fault it got co-opted.

    Didn’t we use to be anti-splash damage?

  41. 41
    frog

    muzakbox @ 24: I don’t have an inherent objection to such a panel, so long as the main statement of the panelists is, “Sack up and ask her out, already. If she declines, take it like a grown-up and don’t be an asshole about it.”

    Seriously, someone needs to explain to these guys that there is an implicit difference between “Would you like to go out to dinner with me” and “Hey, let’s go get some dinner.”

    ————

    According to the wiki, fedoras were originally a female accessory. Perhaps the answer is to renew that fashion.

  42. 42
    Uncle Ebeneezer

    I used to get annoyed by non-functional clothing use (hats/sunglasses inside, uggz in warm weather etc.) but I’ve since decided that clothing also serves a positive function for some people in simply making them feel good about the way they look: ie fashion. So many of the things we wear are not technically needed for the purposes they may initially serve, that it seems silly to harp on people’s fashion choices from a functional perspective. I mean, when I had more hair, I would generally keep my baseball cap on indoors because I would get terrible “hat head.” Sometimes I wear shades indoors at gigs, not to look like a rock star but because the onstage lights are particularly harsh on my eyes (and I don’t want everyone to see that even after 20+ years I still look at my hands alot when playing guitar.) So while I agree that Fedoras seem to be a fairly good signifier of a particular type of hipster/d-bag, it’s not because they are wearing them in inappropriate conditions. So I try not to judge on that basis. Alot of balding men wear hats because they hide their receding hairline/bald spots. I can’t really blame them for wanting to dress in a way that makes them feel better about themselves.

  43. 43
    pocketman

    @37 Until people start making the association fallacy that “wearing a fedora” ACTUALLY means “more inclined to be an asshole”, it is not bullying; it is making fun of a piece of headwear. Granted, I dislike the casual mocking of things that have absolutely nothing to do with their wearers’ personalities, so I do see where you are going with this.

  44. 44
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I don’t like talking to someone who is wearing sunglasses. Not being able to see their eyes makes me uncomfortable.

  45. 45
    carlie

    It really does go to what you’re using clothing for: because you like it, because you think it looks good, as a signifier for something about your class or personality or position. Greta Christina has done a lot of really good posts about clothing and attributing meaning to it.

    I think right now we’re in a time where douchey hipsters wear fedoras, and there are lots of them, so the probability of bumping into one in conjunction with the other is high, leading to a mental association of the two. That’s simply a fact that one has to keep in mind when choosing to wear a fedora, that other people might well make that association. And the person who bumps into them would well keep in mind to looks for other sartorial clues to douchiness and not decide on the fedora alone.

  46. 46
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    And the person who bumps into them would well keep in mind to looks for other sartorial clues to douchiness and not decide on the fedora alone.

    If a person really decided on fedora alone, I would consider them a bit of a douchebag (yes, on that evidence alone *grin*).

  47. 47
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Didn’t we use to be anti-splash damage?

    Please tell me we are not seriously entertaining the idea that mocking some douchebag’s fucking fashion choices makes him an oppressed minority.

  48. 48
    Chris Clarke

    You non-Californians are so cute with your artificially too-stringent distinctions between “indoors” and “outdoors.”

    Where I live, a broad-brimmed hat is survival gear. (Which allows me to join in on the general ridicule of Trilbys.) If someone’s got a hatrack by their door, I’ll gladly use it. Most people don’t. The hat shown in my avatar is approaching 20 years old. It didn’t get to be that way because I took it off and put it on the barstool next to me for some Trilby-wearing poseur to sit on, or on the coffee table so that my host’s cat can cover it with fur. Or on my knee so that I can forget it’s there and lose it when I stand up.

    It’s not just a question of losing my hat: it’s a question of getting back home without it.

  49. 49
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    You non-Californians are so cute with your artificially too-stringent distinctions between “indoors” and “outdoors.”

    I’m moving to the Modesto/Turlock area in a few months. Tell me more!!!!

  50. 50
    mythbri

    As far as sunglasses go, my eyes are incredibly sensitive to light, and I live in the desert. So, sunglasses it is. I’m also near-sighted, and this year I was able to purchase prescription sunglasses for the first time ever. Switching between my prescription sunglasses and my prescription regular glasses when I go inside a store or something is a pain if I’m only going to be a few minutes. If I’m wearing contacts, I can just wear regular sunglasses and remove them when needed, so that’s not a problem. But I need my prescription sunglasses to see. Not an affectation, just laziness.

  51. 51
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @48. Chris Clarke :

    The hat shown in my avatar is approaching 20 years old. It didn’t get to be that way because I took it off and put it on the barstool next to me for some Trilby-wearing poseur to sit on, or on the coffee table so that my host’s cat can cover it with fur.

    What’s wrong with having a bit of cat (or dog) fur on it? That’s just extra insulation surely?

    (Unless you’re allergic I ‘spose?)

    All my clothes usually end up coated in pet fur.

  52. 52
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    mythbri,

    hey, those who need sunglasses, need them. I’m going to feel a bit uncomfortable during a conversation (can’t help it), but not judgy.
    But those who wear sunglasses inside because it’s cool or whatever… I’m not amused.

  53. 53
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @frog

    According to the wiki, fedoras were originally a female accessory. Perhaps the answer is to renew that fashion.

    Wouldn’t work. Girls already wear fedoras over here (though I would call the hat shown above a “trilby”, I’m not even sure what a fedora is or what the difference between the two might be :-/).

  54. 54
    grumpypathdoc

    Arrg. I used to love wearing a real fedora, but that was back in the late seventies, and it was a Bogart type, broad brimmed fedora. Not a zoot suit type. Not a porkpie. Of course don’t tell these guys that they aren’t tough wearing a porkpie…or any other hat:

    http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/03/01/bringing-back-the-hat/

    (Just wanted the images, not the gist of the article).

    Is it OK to wear a “Tilley Hat”? Have to protect the bald spot on top of the head when in the sun, you know.

  55. 55
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Illuminata

    Please tell me we are not seriously entertaining the idea that mocking some douchebag’s fucking fashion choices makes him an oppressed minority.

    No, I think they’re entertaining the idea that there are some trilby/fedora-wearers out there who are not douchebags who are currently being insulted entirely needlessly.

  56. 56
    ChasCPeterson

    There certainly are a number of possible reasons to wear hats, and these can be ranked on a scale from relatively good (e.g., weather protection) to relatively eye-rolly (e.g., affected in-crowd fashion trend). Somewhere in between there are things like bald-spot covering and bad-hair-day-camouflage. I think that “feeling good about the way one looks” is too broad a smear; the line between good and bad reasons is in there someplace.
    And then there is the wide range of specific hats from which one can choose. These will vary in functionality under different environmental circumstances, and there is therefore scope for judgment here as well, if one is so inclined.

    This magazine parody is singling out for mockery the common scenario of a functionless hat worn unnecessarily for the most obnoxiously egotistic reasons on the former spectrum.and chosen specifically for its adherence to some current trendy superficial fashion look.

  57. 57
    A. R

    I often wear a Homburg outdoors in the winter. However, I always wear a suit, meaning that it doesn’t look out of place. I also take it off when indoors, and don’t wear it in the summer. Felt hats in the summer in are rather ridiculous in most circumstances (there are, of course, exceptions related to climate, special events etc.).

  58. 58
    ChasCPeterson

    Is it OK to wear a “Tilley Hat”? Have to protect the bald spot on top of the head when in the sun, you know.

    hey, it was good enough for Hunter Thompson.
    Excellent functional sun and rain protection, bald spot or not. I’ve worn mine in the Galapagos and at Denali and a whole lot of places in between.

  59. 59
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Please tell me we are not seriously entertaining the idea that mocking some douchebag’s fucking fashion choices makes him an oppressed minority.

    What.

    Using fashion choices as a stand-in for personality traits implies that anyone else who makes those choices for any reason shares those traits.

    Please tell me we are not seriously entertaining the idea that carelessly stigmatizing people is something we should only avoid if they technically belong to a technical oppressed minority.

  60. 60
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Didn’t we use to be anti-splash damage?

    Oh, for goodness’ sake. Hat-wearing-preferences now form protected classes of traditionally oppressed minorities whose precarious status in society is further threatened by fedora jokes?

    People really don’t understand concepts like “splash damage,” if that’s the case.

  61. 61
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    @37 Until people start making the association fallacy that “wearing a fedora” ACTUALLY means “more inclined to be an asshole”, it is not bullying; it is making fun of a piece of headwear. Granted, I dislike the casual mocking of things that have absolutely nothing to do with their wearers’ personalities, so I do see where you are going with this.

    …is that ever NOT implied? Is mocking people’s external presentation ever not intended to denigrate the person themself? Maybe if you’re on a certain level of friendly terms, but a stranger?

    (That’s actually only 90% incredulity).

  62. 62
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Won’t someone please think of the fedora wearers?

    If I were to parody the worst aspects of Pharyngula culture (something I love dearly, remember), it would look like this.

  63. 63
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    People really don’t understand concepts like “splash damage,” if that’s the case.

    Using labels or identifying characteristics as shorthand for negative personality traits with which they don’t have any necessary relationship is stigmatizing to people who share the label or characteristics. Some people are in a position to be much more harmed by these stigmas than others, but being insulted for no good reason is unpleasant for everyone and I haven’t seen anyone even attempt to argue for why the line should be drawn so that certain people, any people, still have to put up with being marginalized or denigrated for reasons that have nothing to do with harming anyone. What’s not to understand?

  64. 64
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Azkyroth: Yes, the wearers of a hat currently preferred as the unofficial uniform of MRAs and other douchebros are such an oppressed minority, won’t somebody think of the splash damage? And LOL at your claim that observing a sartorial choice being so often connected to an actually oppressive group as being OMGJust like those meanies in high school!11!

    *eyeroll*

  65. 65
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Do you actually believe that only “oppressed minorities” deserve common fucking decency?

    Because whether or not people who aren’t douchebags who happen to like a certain style of hat belong to an “oppressed minority” is irrelevant to my argument. I don’t understand why you keep bringing it up.

  66. 66
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Josh @ #62: Cosigned.

    Although really, it makes a great example of the “oppression cosplay” Cerberus mentioned upthread.

  67. 67
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    You have no intention of engaging with my actual argument at all, do you?

  68. 68
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Well, I hope it makes you feel better.

  69. 69
    ChasCPeterson

    Is mocking people’s external presentation ever not intended to denigrate the person themself?

    hmm.
    I see a distinction between aspects of appearance that are conscious decisions and aspects that are not. I don’t feel too bad about mocking affectation.
    (I’m fully aware of my own [though at least I've been consistent for 35 years], and take shit for it all the time–but from friends, you’re right, not strangers.)

  70. 70
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    No, Azkyroth, I don’t believe that. Yet I do sense there’s some distinction of scale between being mocked for a fashion choice and being derided for what you are. I wore parachute pants in the late 80s, which looked stupid and douchey, as is universally acknowledged. Somehow that doesn’t seem quite the same as when I had to listen to everything bad in the world described as being “faggy” and “gay. Just what is that difference? Such a mystery. The world may never know.

  71. 71
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Of course there are distinctions of scale. I never claimed otherwise.

    Is it okay if I elbow you aside because, hey, I didn’t shoot you? No, that’s really stupid.

  72. 72
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Because, Azkyroth, you’re yowling about the terrible injustice that is, uh, eyerolling at a choice of hat that is strongly associated with terrible people. You’re apparently willing to die on the hill of “what about the poor guys who like looking like MRAs!? HIGH SCHOOL CLIQUES ARGLEBLARGLE”, and that is ridiculous.

  73. 73
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    What is it, Azkyroth? Are you a fedora wearer? Is this pinging some other insecurity? It just seems way too personal the way you’re reacting.

  74. 74
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    You have no intention of engaging with my actual argument at all, do you?

    That’s a no. I guess we’re done here.

  75. 75
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Azkyroth, are you actually just trying to further demonstrate that oppression cosplay? Because you mostly just are being absurd and entirely lacking in proportion.

  76. 76
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    What is it, Azkyroth? Are you a fedora wearer? Is this pinging some other insecurity? It just seems way too personal the way you’re reacting.

    Yes, I take it personally when people are defined as “okay to mock and sneer at” because of something identifiable about them which is “different” but doesn’t have any necessary relationship to harming someone. Why wouldn’t I?

  77. 77
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Go get a table over in the Friendzone section, Azkyroth. You’ll be buoyed by the moral support of all the nice guys who just can’t get a break. They’re the real victims.

  78. 78
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I don’t recall citing “oppression” either.

    Exactly how bad does someone have to have it before casually insulting them for reasons that have nothing to do with them harming anybody becomes “not okay?” And why shouldn’t it be “zero bad?”

  79. 79
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Go get a table over in the Friendzone section, Azkyroth. You’ll be buoyed by the moral support of all the nice guys who just can’t get a break. They’re the real victims.

    I also take being lied about personally.

  80. 80
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Then stop fucking conflating terms that deal with actual oppression (splash damage) with garden variety chiding or rudeness. FUCKING STOP IT. You’re being a dick.

  81. 81
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    But, I guess you’re just going to lie harder if I keep arguing. So, never mind.

  82. 82
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Then stop fucking conflating terms that deal with actual oppression (splash damage) with garden variety chiding or rudeness.

    I have conflated nothing. I have been very explicit about arguing against garden variety rudeness and drawing a distinction with real oppression.

    And, I see absolutely no reason why the logical application of the term “splash damage” should be artificially restricted to “actual oppression” since the mechanics are similar, merely the effects are different (and as you admitted, largely in degree rather than kind). But if the word has that much magic fucking power that you can’t see past my use of it to EVERYTHING ELSE I’VE SAID and must be guarded that jealously, okay.

  83. 83
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I know you are, but what am I?

  84. 84
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    You’re so fucking ridiculous, Azky. Go find some Nice Guys to go with with and complain about the mean, popular clique that made fun of your hat. Keep on defending the poor bros who need protection from ~rudeness~.

  85. 85
    AshPlant

    I was just having a conversation about fedoras earlier. The context? Mansplaining MRAs, and fedora as instantly obvious signifier of such. Sorry, Azkyroth; I think the fedora is a lost cause. It’s a perfectly voidable fashion choice, and one that is now irrevocably associated in most circles with douchebags. It is certainly not something that deserves any kind of protected minority status on the wearer. Because you can always…just not wear one. Especially if you don’t want to be associated with the kind of people that commonly do.

    Or should we avoid judging people who wear…I’m trying to think of a similar example that isn’t ‘swastika armbands’ because I don’t want to Godwin quite yet…um…well, anyway, there are definitely kinds of clothing that no sane person would want to be associated with, and they don’t qualify for splash damage.

  86. 86
    AshPlant

    Shit. ‘Sensible person’. ‘Person who wants to be taken seriously’. Not ‘sane person’. Sorry.

  87. 87
    AshPlant

    Also, and of lesser importance: avoidable, and confers minority status. PIYF.

  88. 88
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Shit. ‘Sensible person’. ‘Person who wants to be taken seriously’. Not ‘sane person’. Sorry.

    That, Azkyroth, is an example of actual splash damage: Using a marginalized group as a broad pejorative. It’s a mistake we’ve all made, and AshPlant did the right thing.

    That’s the difference.

  89. 89
    Ingdigo Jump

    Wow, way to be assholes Josh and Sadist.

    You literally did “you don’t agree with me so you’re a misogynist enemy”
    Golf clap well done.

    Speaking of worst aspects of Pharyngula

  90. 90
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ing-I honestly have no idea what you mean.

  91. 91
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I don’t see Azkyroth protecting any bros, he just pointed out that a stupid internet meme is stupid. I’m sorry to see that’s reason enough for the two of you to tell him to fuck off from Pharyngula.

    He’s a person who gets upset when a completely unrelated item gets connected with a character fault and then people using the item become a laughing stock of the internet, and I can understand that… because that’s pretty stupid. What I can’t understand is why defending the validity of an internet meme is of any importance to you.

  92. 92
    AshPlant

    Ing: but isn’t extending the language of the oppressed to fashion choices a damage to the legitimate use of that language? Intent not being magic and, all, it’s hard to see the difference between this and the invention of e.g. ‘creep-shaming’: because neither are a real concern. It’s not a matter of scale: it’s a qualitative difference (if that’s the correct usage).

  93. 93
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Josh (#90),

    [Josh] Go get a table over in the Friendzone section, Azkyroth. You’ll be buoyed by the moral support of all the nice guys who just can’t get a break. They’re the real victims.

    [Happiestsadist] You’re so fucking ridiculous, Azky. Go find some Nice Guys to go with with and complain about the mean, popular clique that made fun of your hat. Keep on defending the poor bros who need protection from ~rudeness~.

  94. 94
    rq

    I’m with Ing on this one.

  95. 95
    rq

    And Beatrice, as it happens. They say it better, though.

  96. 96
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    He’s a person who gets upset when a completely unrelated item gets connected with a character fault and then people using the item become a laughing stock of the internet, and I can understand that… because that’s pretty stupid. What I can’t understand is why defending the validity of an internet meme is of any importance to you.

    Were that clear to me I might have reacted differently. The very first thing that jumped out at me was what I saw as very inappropriate confusion of splash damage with rudeness. That’s why I reacted that way. I don’t give a flying fuck about defending an Internet meme–that’s not a battle I’m going to die for.

    My noting that, yes, the fedora thing is very strongly associated with douchebags is not synonymous with “therefore I think all sorts of peoples’ random pictures should be help up to mockery.” Had I known it would read that way I would have phrased it differently.

    But I don’t my reaction to Azkyroth conflating splash damage with mockery was unreasonable or out of line.

  97. 97
    Tethys

    I’m trying to think of a similar example that isn’t ‘swastika armbands’ because I don’t want to Godwin quite yet…um…well, anyway, there are definitely kinds of clothing that no sane sensible person would want to be associated with

    Gang colors?

    I love fedoras, they look good on my head, unlike the vast majority of hat styles. I don’t own any though, because I associate them with 70′s and 80′s pimp fashion. Todays’ dudebros aren’t any different than all those dudes way back then, and I appreciate the fact that they wear a prominent signal of their douchiness so I can completely avoid them at all times. (awesome leather fedoras that acually have been worn for thair intended purpose ala Chris Clark and Indiana Jones do not give off the douche signal)

  98. 98
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    I wear a trilby. I bought a trilby for Tony! The Virtual Queer Shoop, for his birthday. I guess at least one of us must be an MRA?

  99. 99
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    What Ashplant said @ #92. Azky’s bawling about the plight of a hat is absurd, and attempting to stretch actual social justice concerns over the point that, unfortunately, that particular sartorial choice is now associated with a nasty group and claiming that pointing that out is some great act of bullying is fucking obscene.

    Ing, I’m not saying he’s a misogynist, I’m saying he’s being a dipshit, and is also coincidentally using the exactly same whine misogynist fedora enthusiasts do when their uniform gets mocked.

  100. 100
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Go get a table over in the Friendzone section, Azkyroth. You’ll be buoyed by the moral support of all the nice guys who just can’t get a break. They’re the real victims.

    That I’ll take back as I didn’t want to imply Azkyroth was a douchebro supporter.

  101. 101
    Ingdigo Jump

    blockquote>My noting that, yes, the fedora thing is very strongly associated with douchebags is not synonymous with “therefore I think all sorts of peoples’ random pictures should be help up to mockery.” Had I known it would read that way I would have phrased it differently.

    Josh, you do realize that in this thread you just associated “Defending hat==wearing hat==being a douchbro MRA” proving Azky’s point?

    Part of my dislike of the fedora shame is that it seems rather catty and petty to bitch people about their fashion (ignoring the oh so hoity toity ‘fashion is such a primitive poor reason to do anything’ snobbery). I’m sure I’ll be accused of oppression cosplay but it seems to be an odd mirror to inappropriate clothing==Slut in women. I mean can we actually really deny that leopard print isn’t predominately worn by hockers?

  102. 102
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Perhaps next we should all mock neckbeards? Or being overweight and liking Cheetos? Or living with one’s parents?

    It’s true that making fun of people for fitting some “hilarious” Internet stereotype is a kind of shitty thing to do. There isn’t some great benefit to defending mockery of harmless personal things–like hat choice–as if they’re stand-ins for something genuinely bad. That doesn’t make people who wear fedoras an oppressed minority, but there are plenty of people who wear them who don’t fit the MRA/Libertarian/”Nice Guy” stereotype.

    Just because a stereotype exists doesn’t mean everybody fits it. I would think that would be a “duh” statement around here.

  103. 103
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ing, I’m not saying he’s a misogynist, I’m saying he’s being a dipshit, and is also coincidentally using the exactly same whine misogynist fedora enthusiasts do when their uniform gets mocked.

    Except in that you and Josh did say that. Out of curiosity how would you tell an actual non misogynist fedora enthusist who doesn’t like the misogynist association with him from a misogynist whining?

    Yes I know you don’t really care because it’s not a big enough of an issue.

  104. 104
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Look at that, Azkyroth wrote this way above in #59:

    Using fashion choices as a stand-in for personality traits implies that anyone else who makes those choices for any reason shares those traits.

    He may not have mentioned the fact that any unfortunate guy wearing a fedora and posting a pic on the net can easily end up under a mocking caption, but that was pretty much well known, even to a fedora meme newbie like myself.

    Josh, your and Happiestsadist’s comments to Azkyroth made me cringe. Sometimes, I can appreciate the 95% poison solution, but I don’t think it was warranted this time.

  105. 105
    Ingdigo Jump

    Perhaps next we should all mock neckbeards? Or being overweight and liking Cheetos? Or living with one’s parents?

    But obesity and fat shaming is a real actual social justice issue as is the economic situation.

    Hat’s aren’t direclty so we’re free to act like grade school bullys kicking over the dorky kids pogs

    Side note: I am old now :(

  106. 106
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Josh, agreed. The conflation of splash damage with rudeness is simply wrong, and offensively so.

  107. 107
    ChasCPeterson

    I’m reminded of Dawkins’s notorious “Dear Fedora” letter.

  108. 108
    Ingdigo Jump

    Just because something isn’t in the magic liberal progressive social justice category doesn’t mean you can’t be a shit head about it.

  109. 109
    Tethys

    I mean can we actually really deny that leopard print isn’t predominately worn by hockers?

    Yes, we can in fact deny this. While I personally dislike all animal prints, I know plenty of fashionable women who love them and would be deeply offended at being called hockers.

  110. 110
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Tethys

    I think you missed my tongue in cheek on that one.

  111. 111
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Let me type in very, very short sentences so I’m crystal, perfectly clear.

    1. No, Ing, I do not believe Azkyroth is a misogynist. To the extent that anything I wrote implied that, I disavow it. I do not believe that. I am not making that accusation.

    No room for misinterpretation now, right?

    2. There is nothing I can say to those of you who think it’s a horrible meanness to mock bad fashion choices (yes, I just made a subjective judgment, I know!), esp. those that are (yes they are, this isn’t on me) associated with awful subcultures. We’re talking a different language or something.

    Do you not know that “neckbeard” is a synonym for the same kind of behavior? Do you REALLY think it’s a gateway oppression to more serious marginalizing, like (I can’t believe I’m typing this) “mocking someone for liking Cheetos?”

    I can’t parse this. It strikes me as so disproportionate and absurd I don’t even know how to react.

    If you’re so exercised about this, may I expect you to start castigating PZ for the post that far more explicitly mocks people and their hats than anything I’ve said here?

  112. 112
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    What plight of a hat, for fuck sake?

    I can’t tell a fedora from a … a hat, a hat with a brim.

    Taking some random fashion choice and mocking everyone liking it because some douchebag with too much spare time started a meme connecting that fashion choice with some other douchebags…. that’s fucking stupid. Getting angry at someone who points out that stupidity is stupid.

    Can you understand that this is not about a fucking fedora?

    I repeat, this is not about the immense value of a fedora.

  113. 113
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    I most certainly did not say that, Ing. I said he sure as hell is giving misogybros as much cover as they need for their oppression cosplay while misapplying and appropriating social justice terminology.

    And yeah, I am a mean person who laughs at fedora bros because they look fucking ridiculous with this weird affectation of “classic” masculinity, and more often than not, a bizarre desire to act it out.

  114. 114
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Or living with one’s parents?

    Oi!

  115. 115
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Josh

    Do you get that something need not be “a gate way oppression” or “marginalizing” to be douchey?

    Yes, we can in fact deny this. While I personally dislike all animal prints, I know plenty of fashionable women who love them and would be deeply offended at being called hockers.

    So the anecdote defense doesn’t work for fedoras because they’re not fashionable (a subjective opinion)?

  116. 116
    carlie

    There’s wearing a fedora because you think it looks nice, and then there’s wearing a fedora because you think it’s an ironic backlash against modern fashion and paints you as someone above petty sartorial decisions and distinguishes you from the nattering hordes who just don’t know better. The former is fine, the latter is a jerk move.

    The problem is that right now, there are a lot more of the latter than there are of the former, so the former might have to give them up for awhile to not be mistaken for the latter.

    Going to what I think is Azkyroth’s point that making fun of someone’s clothes is just schoolyard bullying, I don’t think it is when that person’s clothing is designed to make fun of the way someone else dresses. That’s the infuriating thing about actual hipsters. They aren’t wearing trucker gear because they think trucker gear is cool, they’re wearing them because they’re making fun of truckers. They aren’t wearing fedoras because fedoras are cool, they’re wearing them because they’re making fun of people who were alive the last time fedoras were in fashion, and they’re wearing them to signify their own in-group status as a group they think is better than everyone else.

    I don’t mind mocking of hipster clothing choices specifically because they are using clothes to make a particular statement of disdain for others, so mocking it back is a rejection of the statements they’re making. If you wear a fedora because you think fedoras are awesome, then great hat, you look good in it, and I’ll compliment how well it’s made and ask you where you got it. If you wear a fedora because you’re making fun of the other people who actually likes fedoras, I’ll tell you to take that shit off and cut it the hell out.

  117. 117
    Ingdigo Jump

    And yeah, I am a mean person who laughs at fedora bros because they look fucking ridiculous with this weird affectation of “classic” masculinity, and more often than not, a bizarre desire to act it out.

    Repeat

    Using fashion choices as a stand-in for personality traits implies that anyone else who makes those choices for any reason shares those traits.

  118. 118
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Hmm, this is true. PZ: How can you live with yourself, having a fedora joke in one of your posts? FOR SHAME.

  119. 119
    Tethys

    Ing

    I’m playing the straight part, poorly. I hoped my repeating the typo would be a clue.

  120. 120
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Can you understand that this is not about a fucking fedora?

    Oh, I get it. I get what you’re saying. It’s that I disagree that a huge awful hateful wrong requiring that much remediation has occured when I mock someone for a fucking HAT.

    What YOU don’t get (and it’s really, really pissy of you to keep ignoring this when I pointed it out) is that it’s pretty fucking shitty to appropriate terms that have clear meanings in terms of systemic oppression to describe other (yes, LESSER IN DAMAGE) forms of douchiness. “Splash damage” means something. That something is not “a person who likes that hat might also be insulted.”

    That’s not beyond the pale. That’s not ridiculous. It is, however, apparently far less important than making sure I know what a mean, awful person I am for noting that certain fashion accessories send an unfortunate message.

    Yep, it’s only me who has no sense of proportion.

  121. 121
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I don’t mind mocking of hipster clothing choices specifically because they are using clothes to make a particular statement of disdain for others, so mocking it back is a rejection of the statements they’re making.

    Huh, I got what hipsters are about all backwards.

  122. 122
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Sadist

    Disingenousness isn’t helping your or make you look any less immature

    @Josh

    You acted like a school yard bully with your response

  123. 123
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    STOP THE PRESSES! It’s OUT OF BOUNDS to note strong correlations between a person’s sartorial affectations and a douchey subculture! Pattern recognition is oppression. It’s Just As Bad as using marginalized groups as a stand in for pejoratives and insults.

    And I’d say The Same Thing even if we were mocking frat bros for wearing hats backward. Lots of people wear hats backward—do you want to hurt them with your callous generalizations?

    Yeah, right. I totally believe that. It’s a completely consistent, proportional position.

  124. 124
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    To look at this from another angle, I wear, almost all the time that I am not on duty, a cowboy hat. White straw during the summer, brown felt during the winter. I have had people assume that I am a right wing GOPer and thanked me for supporting America. I have had people assume that I am a right wing GOPer and yelled at me for being a bigot, a racist, a conservative. Yes, cowboy hat = Texas = extremist politics in the minds of many Americans (some will thank you, others will tell you to go suck a lemming). Assuming one’s politics based on the hat (unless it is a hat with a political patch or pin on it) is stereotyping. Yes, you may be right 51% of the time. Doesn’t make it right or universal.

    Azkyroth, I agree with you. Though it took me a little while to parse it (yeah. I am slow.)

    Josh and others, I agree with you, too, regarding splash damage and the potential over application of the term. Having been bullied through elementary, junior high and some of high school — partly because of my choice of clothing (I have never liked wearing a t-shirt so it can be seen) — I can see how denigration of a clothing choice can be problematic.

  125. 125
    Ingdigo Jump

    It’s Just As Bad as using marginalized groups as a stand in for pejoratives and insults.

    Keep repeating that strawman, doesn’t make you look any less defensive and douchy about this.

  126. 126
    carlie

    Beatrice – maybe I’m wrong, that’s what it seems to be to me. They’re ironically appropriating the fashions of others, and that turns it into a mockery. I might be unbottling some of my suppressed anger from the pre-fedora trucker hat phase, though. That one was definitely mostly mocking.

    What also bugs me is that they claim to be subverting fashion norms by going all vintage and stuff, but if you look at what hipsters wear, it’s quite similar to each other, so they haven’t subverted fashion norms at all; they’ve just created another one. Hipster fashion is just as much of a standard uniform required to be part of the in group as much as normal fashion is for larger society.

  127. 127
    Inaji

    I have several fedora hats, and I don’t really give a shit if other people don’t like them. When I wear my suit, it’s not complete without a fedora. I like hats. *shrug*

  128. 128
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    @Josh

    You acted like a school yard bully with your response

    And I retracted that response. Don’t fucking play a point scoring game with me Ing. You don’t get to keep pushing while not acknowledging when I back down on something. Because you really really really hate what I’m saying doesn’t give you dispensation to play Calvin Ball.

  129. 129
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Josh,

    Call me a tone troll, but I don’t think Azkyroth deserved the treatment he got for using the term splash damage inappropriately.

  130. 130
    Ingdigo Jump

    Oh appologies for being the bad guy here.

  131. 131
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Josh,

    Call me a tone troll, but I don’t think Azkyroth deserved the treatment he got for using the term splash damage inappropriately.

    You may be right, but I saw it as a greater offense than you do, obviously. It’s not the disagreement that gets me, Beatrice, it’s the utter lack of acknowledgment that I might have had a reason to react the way I did. Not a peep. But Azkyroth has every reason in the world to react the way he did, so much so that you have to be pushed to acknowledge that I might be arguing from a genuine place, even if you disagree with it.

    Being accorded none of the benefit of the doubt in a conversation makes me white hot angry, which is why I’m as pissed as I am. It ain’t fair conversational play.

  132. 132
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Oh appologies for being the bad guy here.

    Let’s please call it a draw for now. We’ve been down this road before and it goes nowhere good for either of us.

  133. 133
    Marcus Ranum

    Assuming one’s politics based on the hat (unless it is a hat with a political patch or pin on it) is stereotyping.

    Bingo.

  134. 134
    carlie

    This looks like a definite case of prior experiences really affecting the way the entire conversation is being viewed by everybody involved. It’s about how one treats others, and I’m pretty sure that an awful lot of the people who have gravitated to this blog have some really terrible scars from bullying of various sorts in their past.
    Josh is outraged that Azkyroth is using marginalization language for something like how one dresses, because he’s gotten the shit end of the stick on serious marginalization for who he is that is often violent and life-threatening (at least I think so, based on what I know from what he’s said, sorry if I’m overreaching). I don’t have a window into Azkyroth’s life, but kids are pretty verbally brutal on people who “don’t dress right”, and if his past (or someone he was close to) had a lot of not understanding fashion, or not being able to afford new clothes, or etc. and had a lot of mocking for it, seeing something like the OP here can set off a lot of remembered shit in one’s brain as well.

    And people who have been the recipient of gay bashing understand that it’s a huge overreaction to be upset about making fun of clothes compared to what else people face, and people who spent their childhood being told they were inferior because of their clothes are going to wonder how any decent person can make fun of someone for what they wear. Can I say they’re both right? Because that’s what I want to do, say they’re both right.

  135. 135
    ChasCPeterson

    (unless it is a hat with a political patch or pin on it)

    careful!
    could be ironic.

    (I used to have a vintage ’68 ‘Nixon’s The One’ pin that I wore for yuks…I guess that one’s pretty obvious.)

  136. 136
    octopod

    ChasCPeterson: Yeah, but if one is wearing something ironically I really do think it’s reasonable to expect strangers to have some probability of taking it un-ironically.

    carlie: what you say makes a lot of sense, but I don’t know about “huge overreaction”. Reacting to this, as Azkyroth initially did, with “sigh, stupid hipster-hate again?” doesn’t seem so huge — the mosquito bite just kept getting bigger because people started scratching it, and then it turned into a big nasty boil.

  137. 137
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    (I used to have a vintage ’68 ‘Nixon’s The One’ pin that I wore for yuks…I guess that one’s pretty obvious.)

    Sorry. You are correct. I should have written

    (unless it is a hat with a political patch or pin on it (and even then an assumption can be wrong))

    My bad.

  138. 138
    carlie

    octopod – I think you’re definitely correct. I was just thinking, reading it all, that the reason everything kept getting scratched was because everybody already has a scab of one sort or another, and this was hitting several kinds at once.

  139. 139
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    we are not talking about a legitimate act of splash damage, or clothes-policing in the service of bigotry. We’re talking about a group of misogynistic assholes who use a particular hat as a status symbol. Axe body spray, white plastic sunglasses, “popped” collars – all have the same taint, now so do fedoras.

    When PUA/MRAs become an abused, oppressed minority, and therefore mocking their clothing becomes indicative of or supportive of bigotry, I’ll stop laughing at them.

  140. 140
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Thanks carlie… #134 was exactly the comment this thread needed.

  141. 141
    Chris Clarke

    We’re talking about a group of misogynistic assholes who use a particular hat as a status symbol.

    Actually, we’re talking about an article of clothing that’s very popular among a certain age group of men, among whose number is a unknown but definitely too high percentage of misogynists. Same as you can say for plastic-mesh-backed baseball caps, toupees, bare heads, berets, turbans and fezzes.

    But don’t let that keep you from getting defensive when called on the fact that your mockery hurts innocent people’s feelings, no matter how trivially.

    God I hate this place sometimes.

  142. 142
    Inaji

    Chris:

    Actually, we’re talking about an article of clothing that’s very popular among a certain age group of men,

    :coughs: And women. As noted upthread, I have several fedoras that I wear on a regular basis and I love those damn hats. I really don’t care for all the nasty ass remarks, either. I was wearing fedoras long before there was such a critter as a ‘hipster’.

  143. 143
    unclefrogy

    PZ mentioned something up thread about how there used to be hat racks all over in houses and business. There were and many interesting designs as well. I like hats am not a kid seems like I have worn them most of my life all kinds would like to were more different kinds but sometimes I wear them inside not as a statement so much as where the fuck do you put the damn thing so you can remember it and find it? I can’t just keep it my hands when I am inside everywhere. I do know that it is slightly different when it is a work hat but still.
    I do hate it that I seem to have to check out how I will be judged or what group I will be associated with whether I am or not by what I chose to wear but it is a fact I struggle with.
    uncle frogy

  144. 144
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Josh says everything at #62 that I could have possibly said. Except that it’s not exactly a shock to see whiny-ass titty baby Azky (oh, NOES, adultism!!) puling over this shit, too.

    Ing and Beatrice: What Happiestsadist said at #113. BTW, Ing, I guess it’s not OK to mock people for wearing fedorae, but it is OK now to use words like “catty” and “bitch”? Just so we’re keeping score.

    Mellow Monkey:

    Perhaps next we should all mock neckbeards?

    I’ve been fine with that for years.

    HS:

    And yeah, I am a mean person who laughs at fedora bros because they look fucking ridiculous with this weird affectation of “classic” masculinity, and more often than not, a bizarre desire to act it out.

    I adore you and your meanness. Just so you know.

  145. 145
    Ingdigo Jump

    OHI’m so sorry daisy I forgot the magic no no hivemind list. its aok to insult ppl as long as you avoid the liberal pc list right? for fuck sake a lot of people here really can be bullys

    And now I will wait for the “ftbullies” accusation because you all enjoy the blood bath activism so much

  146. 146
    Ingdigo Jump

    But don’t let that keep you from getting defensive when called on the fact that your mockery hurts innocent people’s feelings, no matter how trivially.

    God I hate this place sometimes.

    This.

  147. 147
    Uncle Ebeneezer

    @Carlie- Yes, Greta’s writings on the subjects have definitely influenced me on this topic.

    I’m torn on many of the hipster trends nowadays. Trucker hats and vintage t-shirts are two things that I have always loved. When I was a kid the trucker style hats were pretty much all we had for my Tee-ball/baseball teams, and underoo-style tee shirts were the coolest things on earth. So when I started to see them coming back (after years of being fairly unavailable) I was excited to wear these things not out of irony, but because I just like them. It’s true that there’s always a risk of being associated with hipsters, but screw it, why should I let that stop me from wearing a Scooby Doo shirt or whatever, if I like it. Of course in other areas, I’m more concerned not to wear certain styles for the same reason. I used to wear polo’s and kakhi’s for work (business casual environment) and I always worried that people would assume I was some sort of job-creator-worshipping, OC Republican. Fortunately my mohawk helped alleviate those worries ;)

    As for Fedoras and the hat like the one in the picture, I was totally unaware of the MRA connection. In Los Angeles people wear so many vintage hats and styles, that I doubt the correlation is very strong. Most of the guys I know who wear these types of hats lean towards feminism.

  148. 148
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Nice, Ing. It’s good to know actual misogynist slurs are a-OK, but making fun of goofy douchebags and their hats is a true crime against innocent people and their delicate feelings.

    Also, I love how nobody knows what a hipster actually is or can agree on a definition, but agrees they are the real problem.

    Sorry y’all: fedoras are lost. They’re perfectly nice hats on their own, but they’re lost to MRAs and PUAs. If it makes you so very sad that you look like one if you’re a dude wearing one, either suck it the fuck up, or don’t wear ‘em. Or complain to the MRAs.

  149. 149
    CJO

    *scratches neckbeard*

  150. 150
    Ingdigo Jump

    I apologize for gendered slurs. Sorry. You know, cause I actually don’t want to offend people I like.

  151. 151
    Chris Clarke

    Caine:

    :coughs: And women.

    Of course. My apologies.

    I was wearing fedoras long before there was such a critter as a ‘hipster’. they were uncool.

    FTFY.

  152. 152
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Chris

    Actually, we’re talking about an article of clothing that’s very popular among a certain age group of men,

    Caine

    :coughs: And women.

    And genderqueer people. I like hats and have a trilby like the one above, along with a whole bunch of other hats. For a while there, the broader brimmed fedoras were pretty popular among all the gender non-conforming and trans* people I knew, to the point that it was joked about as being a uniform.

  153. 153
    Travis

    I had no idea fedoras were associated with MRAs. I guess I have never actually seen any of the MRAs that roam around the internet, or watch their videos. My only interaction has been through comments on blogs and other websites.

    It almost makes me feel uncomfortable with my avatar here, I have one of my summer hats on, my magnificent moustache waxed up, and suspenders.

  154. 154
    Inaji

    Travis:

    It almost makes me feel uncomfortable with my avatar here, I have one of my summer hats on, my magnificent moustache waxed up, and suspenders.

    You look fine to me. :)

  155. 155
    Inaji

    Chris:

    FTFY.

    Thank you.

    MM:

    And genderqueer people.

    Yes. Thank you.

  156. 156
    Travis

    Thanks Caine. Honestly I am not going to change, and stop dressing like this, because some jackasses seem to like hats as well. However, I do prefer to rip into them for their ideas, and not what they happen to wear. Or as Carlie has mentioned, the reasons they wear certain things.

    My girlfriend was in London recently and got me a lovely handmade silk bowtie on Saville Row, I shall wear it with pride and ignore the hipster comments.

  157. 157
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    What YOU don’t get (and it’s really, really pissy of you to keep ignoring this when I pointed it out) is that it’s pretty fucking shitty to appropriate terms that have clear meanings in terms of systemic oppression to describe other (yes, LESSER IN DAMAGE) forms of douchiness. “Splash damage” means something. That something is not “a person who likes that hat might also be insulted.”

    Okay.

    The term “splash damage,” as I understand it, was coined in the context of video games to describe the effect of certain video game weapons (rocket launchers, that sort of thing) where they cause damage on “hitting” not just to the intended target but to anyone in the vicinity, including neutral characters, friendly characters, and even the player character.

    This is an obviously useful analogy for social justice relevant behaviors and their effects…and an obviously useful analogy for other behaviors, too. Including those lesser in damage, even vastly so.

    I really don’t see how I could have been expected to know that certain activists had not only adopted this figurative use, but had developed the expectation of a a monopoly on figurative uses, of the term – I’m not touching whether that kind of territoriality with an appropriated figurative use is reasonable.

    But, um, I’ll try to remember…

  158. 158
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    That I’ll take back as I didn’t want to imply Azkyroth was a douchebro supporter.

    Thank you.

  159. 159
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    We’re talking about a group of misogynistic assholes who use a particular hat as a status symbol. Axe body spray, white plastic sunglasses, “popped” collars – all have the same taint, now so do fedoras.

    Or, We’re talking about a group of conservative assholes who use a particular hat as a status symbol. Huge SUVs, American flag stickers, coloured t-shirts with flags or military logos — all have the same taint, now so do cowboy hats.

    I think that the porkpies (they don’t look like fedoras to me, but hats, and the names of them, change with the times) but I am aware that assuming a particular mode of dress is indicative of certain views. I wear a cowboy hat with an American flag pin that was given to me when I was working in NYC after 9/11, have a crewcut, drive a big American sedan, wear cowboy boots — I look like a poster child for a neoconservative Republican. I think splash damage may be too strong a word, but stereotyping based on clothing can be problematical.

  160. 160
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    stereotyping based on clothing can be problematical.

    Indeed. Also, I think anyone who decides to snap judge and/or deride people based on an article of clothing or type of dress is a person who has decided lazy thinking is the way to go. Heh, I remember being taught “don’t judge a book by its cover.”

  161. 161
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Azkyroth

    The term “splash damage,” as I understand it, was coined in the context of video games to describe the effect of certain video game weapons (rocket launchers, that sort of thing) where they cause damage on “hitting” not just to the intended target but to anyone in the vicinity, including neutral characters, friendly characters, and even the player character.

    You understand correctly.

    The first time I saw the term used in a social justice context, I thought it was a clever metaphor. Its origins don’t have anything to do with social justice in and of itself, just as a metaphorical reference to video game and RPG weapons.

  162. 162
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Let me rephrase: I know it was coined in that context, because that’s the context in which I was familiar with it for a decade and a half before encountering the Social Justice figurative usage, for the first time, in PZ’s revised blog rules. I assumed that it was adopted for that figurative usage by analogy with the more literal use; I suppose it could have been that the Social Justice use predated it and was an independent coinage, or even inspired the phrasing of the video game term, but…looks like I was right.

    So…what the actual fuck?

  163. 163
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Azkyroth and Mellow Monkey

    Thank you.

    The only milieu in which I have encountered this term is in the context of social justice and discrimination. I had no idea the roots of the phrase. And I just came very very close to arguing from personal usage.

  164. 164
    Portia

    As is evidenced by lots and lots of slurs, meanings change with time and context.

  165. 165
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    That’s broadly true, but I don’t see why that should make it obvious beforehand that only one figurative usage of a borrowed term is acceptable in any given context.

  166. 166
    Portia

    I don’t have an answer to that. I guess it’s the only way I’ve heard it used in this context. By extrapolation from the principle of non-equivalence and non-appropriation I wouldn’t use it any other way in this context. But then, I don’t have experience with it being used any other way so that’s the perspective from which I speak.

  167. 167
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I think splash damage may be too strong a word, but stereotyping based on clothing can be problematical.

    Basically, this. I had a big comment that I lost but this is basically it. I seriously had a gut reaction of being offended that splash damage would be use for those judged on hats. It just feels wrong to me. It really does. Splash damage has been defined here and in PZ’s own comment policy as things that damage a group of people based on innate things like race and gender and sexual orientation because of society’s ingrained discrimination and injustice.

    No splash damage. I have no problem with insults (except, not in the Lounge!), and encourage everyone to use vigorous and creative language. Except…I insist that you be precise and focused. Stilettos, not shotguns. There are classes of insults that rely on broad spectrum stereotypes to be insulting: racist, sexist, ableist, ageist slurs don’t just hit your target, they hit everyone in that group. So when you slam Joe Schmoe for being “old”, you’re also slamming me, and we old people get tetchy and cranky about that sort of thing.

    Saying “I think fedora’s are a sign you’re an MRA” isn’t a broad stereotype. It isn’t a protected group. You can easily remove yourself from that group or prove you aren’t an MRA. When I see Clark’s avatar I don’t think douche alert because he’s not a douche! We’ve already talked about how it’s not always right and how judging on things like wearing sunglasses inside can be an asshole move when there’s a justified reason for it. I don’t see why using stereotype isn’t enough. I don’t see why we have to dilute splash damage to this level. It’s not the same and I think keep the distinction is important otherwise, people will equate thinking popped collars is a sign of a douche with calling someone a faggot.

    The only examples I can think of are much larger in proportion like that awful sign (IIRC) “Women are the new [n-word]” and white guys thinking honky and the n-word are the same and skin heads calling black people racist for being fearful/judging/apprehensive because of their hair style choice. There’s such a huge difference I can’t even being to explain it. I just… UGH.

    And since this issue is so fucking uncomfortable and awful to me and has spread to other threads and the Lounge, I’m going to peace out of Pharyngula for awhile. Maybe once I finally submit this comment I can fucking close this shit instead of sitting here so fucking flustered and feeling so fucking awful.

  168. 168
    CJO

    And now there’s an ad for fedoras at the top of the page.

  169. 169
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Oh for fuck’s sake.

    What objections will people offer to asking someone to compile a list of “Words that don’t mean what everyone with any but a certain background understands them to mean anymore BECAUSE”?

  170. 170
    Portia

    I think you’re overstating the obscurity (or understating the prevalence, whichever) of the relevant definition of “splash damage.” As JAL points out, it’s right in the comments policy. Though I guess it doesn’t say that the term means oppressive language exclusively. I don’t know, I just don’t think it’s that hard a place to get to recognize that even apparent equivalence between insults based on clothing chosen for a particular reason and oppression based on who you are, is hurtful.

  171. 171
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    No, you know what? I have one more thing to say. As someone who’s straight and cis and white, I’ve shut up and listened to people about issues so I can be an ally. I have paid attention to making sure I don’t equate and dismiss and diminish what they have gone through with what I have gone through being abused, poor and bullied. It’s not the same thing. Even with all my stuff, I’m still so privledged and get farther than minorities of my same poverty level. I’ve learned that, I KNOW that and I’ve seen just how fucking awful it is when people co-opt shit. I hate it. I’m so fucking against it. I’ve unfortunately fucked up before and I remember. I hurt with “Oh, I don’t see why I can’t call it the same thing or make comparisons”. I hate seeing that here. I hate seeing it defended because those triggered by it went too far. I fucking hate it so much.

  172. 172
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Azkyroth

    That’s broadly true, but I don’t see why that should make it obvious beforehand that only one figurative usage of a borrowed term is acceptable in any given context.

    I agree. Being already familiar with it in the context of games, I only ever read it here as a figurative reference to games. Not an independent, social justice term. I would have ended up stumbling into the same situation you found yourself in, I guess. I had no idea the people using it weren’t drawing a conscious allusion between verbal attacks and video game weapons.

  173. 173
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    As JAL points out, it’s right in the comments policy. Though I guess it doesn’t say that the term means oppressive language exclusively. I don’t know, I just don’t think it’s that hard a place to get to recognize that even apparent equivalence between insults based on clothing chosen for a particular reason and oppression based on who you are, is hurtful.

    No it doesn’t, and you’re relying on certain things being “obvious” from a social context which is a problem for some of us. I’ll probably eventually come to agree with you once I run out of the stockpile of completely gratuitous hurt, bitterness, and (let me guess, it’s also “co-opting” to use “triggering” for involuntarily dredging painful memories that don’t actually cause panic attacks?) dumped in my lap, but it wasn’t obvious at all. :/

  174. 174
    Chris Clarke

    When I see Clarke’s avatar I don’t think douche alert because he’s not a douche!

    I’m one of the good ones.

    About seven years ago I was informed by the staff of a particular humor blog that their jokes about a particular right-wingers’ weight weren’t about me because I was a fat left-winger. It was only if I suddenly started supporting the war that my gut became fair game for mockery.

    Until that happened, I was one of the good ones.

    People here insist that their rhetorical opponents hew to a certain standard of ethics in discourse. The notion that you should make your criticism about what you actually want to criticize is at the root of many of those standards. The fact that haberdashery is usually, but not always, an order of magnitude more trivial than other such unfairly criticized attributes of the person you’re slamming doesn’t change the dynamic. For fuck’s sake: the trivial stuff ought to be easier to drop.

    If it’s not about the headgear but the behavior, then why insist on your right to make it about the headgear? Unless your actual goal is to be an ass.

  175. 175
    tmscott

    Count me as one of those hat (not cap) lovers who are dismayed that a fedora is now considered the mark of MRA hipsters.

    None the less, I will continue to wear my felt fedora in colder (and wetter) months, and my Montecristi panama during the dry months.

    I tip my hat for old ladies (please pardon my benign chauvinism) and for people who stop for pedestrians in crosswalks.

    Where there is a hat rack, I use it, and where there is a hat check, I tip for the service.

    I hand it over carefully in hopes that it will be returned that way, but I try not to wince visibly if its mishandled through ignorance.

    I remove it when asked politely by public address systems and clergy, even though I don’t choose to pledge or pray.

    I am ashamed to admit that I will resort to violence should anyone try to remove it by force.

  176. 176
    Portia

    I, for one, am totally willing to drop the mockery of fedoras. I’m only here to make the argument that any equivalence between mocking fedoras and mocking a person’s immutable characteristics is crappy and hurtful. I think JAL’s analogy of skinheads is a good one.

    Azkyroth, I get that you’re in a rough spot at the moment. I understand that the cues weren’t obvious to you. As a sidenote, I’ve gained a lot of respect for you in the past for your ability to say “Oh, I get it now. Sorry that came off shitty.” I’m not always good at that, myself. I’m heading out of the office now so I’ll be back later.

  177. 177
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I didn’t know about the use of splash damage in any other context but political and justice issues; that’s why I reacted to it the way I did. Thanks for correcting that.

  178. 178
    Inaji

    Chris:

    For fuck’s sake: the trivial stuff ought to be easier to drop.

    Yes, it should be. It should also be easy to take a moment, realize you’re happily thinking in stereotypes and stop.

  179. 179
    pocketman

    I’m just going to leave this here for future use:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

  180. 180
    ChasCPeterson

    What objections will people offer to asking someone to compile a list of “Words that don’t mean what everyone with any but a certain background understands them to mean anymore BECAUSE”?

    Agreed; a Sociology-to-English phrasebook would be useful sometimes.

  181. 181
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Why am I back? I’m crying but I just can’t stop picking at the scab.

    174
    Chris Clarke,

    I’m not defending stereotypes. I’m not defending that. I’m actually with Azkyroth up until this “I don’t get it” moment. The point of that paragraph was supposed to be that I thought the thread was going in a good direction talking about stereotypes and judgement on thing like style, which was derailed with the use of splash damage in that context which came off as dismissive and triggering. It still comes off as dismissive since it’s not like they’ve acknowledged how it came be hurtful to others and is now blaming me for them still not admitting Portia is right because I said this was “triggering”. (Nice scare quotes by the way, asshole Azkyroth).

    Guess what Azkyroth? Intent isn’t fucking magic. You don’t get it. Got it. It’s a big misunderstanding that blew up due to both sides being emotional and triggered. Tony and Sadist took back the “good guy table” comments, how about you? HUH? HOW ABOUT YOU?

  182. 182
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I…what?

    It still comes off as dismissive since it’s not like they’ve acknowledged how it came be hurtful to others and is now blaming me for them still not admitting Portia is right because I said this was “triggering”. (Nice scare quotes by the way, asshole Azkyroth).

    That…wasn’t aimed at you? The quotes around triggering were because I’d occasionally wondered if I was using the term correctly, with similar concerns, to describe my own rather extreme emotional, but non-panic-per-se, reactions to being reminded of things. Sorry?

    Guess what Azkyroth? Intent isn’t fucking magic. You don’t get it. Got it. It’s a big misunderstanding that blew up due to both sides being emotional and triggered. Tony and Sadist took back the “good guy table” comments, how about you? HUH? HOW ABOUT YOU?

    What do you want me to say?

  183. 183
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    *glances around*

    I blame Michael Jackson. (The patented lean is at 3:53.)

    *exits smartly*

  184. 184
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    When I was a child I was bullied, badly. I have a deviated septum and one tooth doesn’t line up with the others as physical reminders of that bullying. The application of fists and boots was uncommon though, the verbal taunts however were a daily feature of my life for years.

    And what did they taunt me with? It wasn’t my racial appearance, we were all of a type, no, they taunted me for my clothes. And when my single mother finally managed to afford to buy m e what they were wearing I was taunted for pretending to be like them.

    And then along came Punk. Great, it suited me to the ground musically, philosophically, and best of all: it came with a uniform. But there was no safety in that either. The policing of that uniform was damn near as constant as the harassment of the bullies. So I gave up that too, or at least the dress code part of it.

    In addition to the lasting physical harm I suffered, I’m reminded of those years every fucking time I have to buy clothes. I hate it, I hate the needless second guessing I do over it. And on my bad days I get anxious just getting dressed in the morning even though I know that no one is going to openly mock me. I’m 47 fucking years old after all and my friends are all adults.

    The mocking of apparel is a bog standard bullying tactic. So you tell me, is that fact that this tread mad me angry as hell splash damage or not?

  185. 185
    Kagato

    I was initially a bit startled to see that this is the battle being fought today.

    I mean we all make snap judgements based on the affected appearance of others, consciously or not. And some affectations may be more strongly correlated with certain attitudes than others.

    But the more I think about it, the less willing I find myself to defend such prejudgement at all.

    I can’t see any qualitative difference between judging the “douchiness” of a guy based on his fedora, and judging a woman’s “character” based on the style of her skirt or shoes, or judging the “scariness” of a black man based on his hoodie.

    The social implications of those judgements may vary wildly, but the same basic processes seem to be at play. It’s obvious that the latter two are wrong; I can’t see why the first one isn’t as well.

    Want to depict a stereotypical douchebag in a fedora? Fine and dandy. But turning it around to call fedoras the mark of a douchebag is a step too far.

  186. 186
    Inaji

    FossilFishy:

    In addition to the lasting physical harm I suffered, I’m reminded of those years every fucking time I have to buy clothes. I hate it, I hate the needless second guessing I do over it. And on my bad days I get anxious just getting dressed in the morning even though I know that no one is going to openly mock me. I’m 47 fucking years old after all and my friends are all adults.

    I am so sorry that such a simple thing (or should be a simple thing) causes you such anxiety, all these years later. It’s a stark reminder that scars run very deep indeed. I’ll admit that I’ve never given this much thought, because this was one area I was highly privileged in growing up. I had great clothes, always. Now that I think on it, those clothes meant a great deal to me, mostly because every other aspect of my life was such shit.

    Thinking further, I realize that yes, I should have known that the matter of clothes can cause splash damage. Mister was the oldest of 8 kids, a navy brat. There wasn’t a lot of money to go around, and certainly not much for clothing. Mister turned 60 this May, and you should hear the venom in his voice if cheap J.C. Penney jeans are brought up for any reason. Earlier in the thread, I was bothered by all the people who were happy to let stereotypes do their thinking for them. Now, I realize I was being insensitive and on the stupid side, because clothing can indeed be the basis for a lot of bad shit happening to people, especially when there’s no way for someone to change their clothing choices.

    And no, it’s not the same as racist, sexist or ableist slurs, however, such insensitivity can hurt people such as yourself, FossilFishy, and I apologize for not realizing that earlier.

    The mocking of apparel is a bog standard bullying tactic. So you tell me, is that fact that this tread mad me angry as hell splash damage or not?

    I’d have to yes, it is splash damage.

  187. 187
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Thank you for that Caine. I really appreciate it.

    I’m going to add the following because it might illuminate other’s with regard to this sort of thing. And if I’m honest, because I feel the need to say it.

    After reading this thread and writing 184 I left work to go to the bank and get some lunch. My route back to work passes a pub that has an open air smoking area out front. Today, as most days, it was full of guys with hard hands and high-vis work clothes. As I approached I began to swing my shoulders more, I balled my fist and flipped my fucking bottle of diet Coke, of all things over, so I was holding it by the skinnier end.

    Why? Because I felt threatened by a bunch of guys having a beer in the afternoon. Because that bullied kid/teenager inside of me judged people I didn’t know to be a threat. I didn’t even realise I done all this until I got back to the store. That threat response, adopting an aggressive posture and ready anything I’m carrying to be a weapon doesn’t always happen. But this time it did because I’d been primed by this thread.

    And that is just another fucking horrible thing that I can lay at the bully’s feet. When I’m in a bad way I become an asshole who judges others by what they’re wearing, of all the hypocritical things. I fucking hate that, and unless I’m really vigilant it happens unconsciously.

  188. 188
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    I’m just gonna weigh in briefly here; I wanted to yesterday but thought I’d better keep out of it as I saw some validity to Josh’s complaints regarding the use of the phrase splash damage. However, now that’s all fully explained and has calmed down…

    I occasionally wear a trilby during the summer. I like how the “pork-pie hat” style of trilby looks on me; it suits my face shape and I look good in them. I do listen to rock and indie music, which obviously comes with a certain look and a certain subculture and I would be lying if I said that being part of that subculure had nothing to do with my choice of hat; however I fail to see why that means people have the right to take the piss out of me. A bit of gentle mockery is fine, but some of the mockery on this thread was quite vitriolic, not to mention the stereotyping of anyone who wears one as an MRA douchebag (I didn’t even know they were popular among MRAs).

    Yes, the use of the term splash damage was incorrect, and mockery of a fashion choice simply cannot be equated with mockery of a person’s sexuality or race or indeed any membership to any vulnerable group (not that that’s what I interpreted Azkyroth’s criticism’s to be, but some on here clearly did). Never the less, such mockery can still be quite hurtful when it’s coming from a group of people which you mostly respect and admire.

    I don’t wear one often and I have a thick skin, so while I certainly wasn’t happy about the comments being made it didn’t really cause me any harm. But I can certainly see how some people with similar fashion sense to myself could have found this thread incredibly offensive. Assuming you know about someone’s personality traits because of the way they dress is stereotyping, and that’s not OK.

    That’s just my 2 pence.

  189. 189
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    All the knee-jerk defensiveness in this thread is misplaced. On the first point, if you wear the hat and you’re not a PUA MRA libertarian rape apologist, then good for you. You’re not the type of person we’re talking about, but several people insist that somehow this applies to them. I was talking to a friend about this and I think I’ll call it “the shoe doesn’t fit but I must wear it”.

    Second, to the people who bring up childhood bullying based on clothes: I’m truly sorry that happened to you. I was also bullied for my appearance as a kid. This is not the same situation at all, though. As a kid, your clothes are often determined by your parents’ choices and particularly their class. This, however, is adult men who consciously make these choices to wear them, whether it be a conscious association with the movement or they’re just copying the styles of assholes like Heartiste (or whatever he goes by now). There’s also a power dynamic at work here that has either been misunderstood or ignored: I’m not “bullying” an MRA PUA libertarian rape apologist (I can’t think of a shorter term for this, either) by pointing out that most of them wear the same hat as an official or unofficial in-group style. I can’t, because I have no power over them.

    Third, there’s a purpose to “stereotyping” here that seems to be going missed. Here’s an example: if I see someone driving a car covered in Christian radio station bumper stickers and Jesus fish and crosses and shit, I’m going to assume they’re a fundie asshole and a homophobe and I would stay away from them. I could be completely wrong about that “stereotype”, but in this case that stereotype is designed to protect me.

    In the same vein, I’ve seen tons of these PUA MRA libertarian rape apologist assholes wearing fedoras, so if I see a guy wearing that outfit I have a stereotype that that’s what they’re like. It may not be fair, but at best what it means is that I will stay the fuck away from them. Me staying away from you because you dress just like someone who is offensive and oppressive is not me oppressing you.

    Now, in the first case, people might say “well, why doesn’t that Christian make it more plain and obvious that they’re not a bigot?” rather than interrogate the validity of my judgements and assumptions for my safety and mental health. Why isn’t that the case if I make the same assumption about a man wearing a fedora at an atheist meeting and decide to stay away from him and maybe make a joke about his stupid hat on the internet? Because you happen to like wearing the same hat and don’t want me mentally associating the two of you and bigotry together? Well, I don’t, because as has already been said, we’re not making a broad claim that every person who wears this hat holds those views, because clearly they don’t. Put the shoe down already.

  190. 190
    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital

    And let me clarify once again: any assumptions made based on wearing a fedora is not broadly applied. I would only make such an assumption in specific situations, like at my local atheist meeting where there are several guys pretty much just like the fake mag picture up top are mocking. I also know lots of awesome people, like Chris, wear the hat and aren’t like that. Assume that we’re smart enough to see the difference, maybe?

  191. 191
    Lurkeressa, Always Late to Juicy Threads

    Living in lily-white, mostly-feminist Finland and my bisexuality so mild I might as well be classified straight, I can’t claim to have experienced any, well, genuine oppression (well, there’s the attitudes towards a mental state I’m mostly closeted about, but that’s not so relevant here). It’s just that I felt interested yet uncomfortable reading the upper side of this thread and, aside from the unfortunate use of “splash damage”(which I didn’t catch Azkyroth apologising for), was attracted to the side of Ing, Caine and the lot in the argument. People sometimes comment that my clothing and hair-style are “daring”… I always felt that it’s an insane world where (among other things) someone could be called “brave” for simply looking a certain way. With people and media, especially the Internet, seemingly finding it their right if not outright duty to judge people (especially women) about how they look has made my tolerance level towards that sort or judging pretty low. So even if I’ve never worn fedoras, in cases like this I tend to feel I’m being implicitly mocked as well. Some people attribute it to me being an artsy person, which I don’t like at all (“She can’t help it, she’s an artist” makes my supposedly hideous fashion sense sound like a disease).

    It was my experiences in a foreign country that made me a lot more self-conscious, as I was, for the first time, openly stared and leered at. By strangers on the street, too (I guess Finns are generally too restrained/polite to do that). Still, it’s not due to lack of money as it was in case of FossilFishy. And since it has been made clear to me that my clothing choices are Not Stylish, Not Sexy, Not Pretty and I still choose to wear them, no wonder if I get mocked since I am basically just Asking For It…?

    I want to avoid Azkyroth’s mistake and emphasise that someone making fun of my skirt because they think it looks dumb is not on the same plane of existence as them raping me because they think it’s too short; it’s still just simply, well, unnecessary and not fun.

  192. 192
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I want to avoid Azkyroth’s mistake and emphasise that someone making fun of my skirt because they think it looks dumb is not on the same plane of existence as them raping me because they think it’s too short

    Which I didn’t. Jesus Mythical Christ.

  193. 193
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Err. I didn’t say that, and in fact DID emphasize the opposite.

  194. 194
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    (Why the fuck can’t typing out the other 97% of words people fucking ignore when responding to me at least burn more calories or something?)

  195. 195
    Lurkeressa, Always Late to Juicy Threads

    Err. I didn’t say that, and in fact DID emphasize the opposite.
    I understood this too, yes.

  196. 196
    Lurkeressa, Always Late to Juicy Threads

    sorry, meant that as quote.

  197. 197
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Me staying away from you because you dress just like someone who is offensive and oppressive is not me oppressing you.

    No, but it is you being shallower than a puddle of spit.

    And geez you people really see a person and go “Oh, a piece of clothing Facebook says assholes wear. Must avoid.” It must be my lack of observation skills, but I can’t imagine even giving that much thought to what someone is wearing.

    No wonder people are self-conscious, a stupid internet meme is apparently enough to make a piece of clothing verboten. Too bad if you aren’t current in bullshit stereotypes based on internet memes, people are going to give you a glance and judge you anyway.
    People are such assholes.

  198. 198
    woodsong

    AshPlant @85

    I’m trying to think of a similar example that isn’t ‘swastika armbands’ because I don’t want to Godwin quite yet…um…well, anyway, there are definitely kinds of clothing that no sane sensible person would want to be associated with

    Tethys @97

    Gang colors?

    I have an example of exactly this. A friend of mine was a high school teacher for years, possibly a couple of decades. For most of his adult life, he’s worn a claddagh ring given to him by one of his parents or grandparents as part of the family heritage.

    He was taken aside by the principle one day and told not to wear the ring to school anymore because it was a gang symbol, and the school did not allow the wearing of gang symbols on school grounds. Never mind that the claddagh is an ancient and popular jewelry motif, and he’d been wearing it for longer than most of his students had been alive–one of the local gangs had coopted it, therefore it became forbidden.

    Personally, I dislike stereotyping. In my above example, had I been involved, I would have been tempted to purchase a tray of rings to give out to students until a sizable percentage of the school population was wearing them, thus rendering them useless as a gang symbol.

    This discussion makes me inclined to find a fedora for myself, perhaps with a feminism or LGBT ally pin in the band as an accessory. Or both, plus my “If Religious Groups Want to Get Into Politics, They Should Pay Taxes” and Philip K. Dick quote “Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it” pins.

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