Why the Republican Party as we know it is doomed »« Perhaps they should have tried this technique on the priests?

[Lounge #403]


This is the lounge. You can discuss anything you want, but you will do it kindly. Pangolins are awesome.

Status: Heavily Moderated; Previous thread


  1. Portia, who will be okay. says

    I was going to say “Maybe you can do this from a distance” and then decided to read the posting to make sure I wasn’t going be a dolt about it and lo and behold, good I did, because they are very insistent about the commuting distance thing. Well, it never hurts, right? I’m not 100% sure I want the job I’m interviewing for tomorrow, but more options is usually a good thing. (I love that living away from your cat is a factor, btw :) ) Alternatively, ask if there’s something you could do from a distance? Freelance writing?

  2. says

    Oh, dear. Mellow Monkey, you might want to go check out Dan Finke’s new post, um, now.

    I only got as far as “And I appreciate that he is willing to criticize…” before giving up

  3. rq says

    You can commute from Sweden… right? Right? :( Maybe if you send them enough cheesecakes…
    I would say, apply (you know, for fun), but also ask about other opportunities to write for them. You never know!



  4. Esteleth, Ficus Putsch Knits says

    Tony, I apologize. I asked you a few days ago if you needed Hordefunds, then promptly dropped the ball.

    If you do, how much? How soon? What’s your currency? If you’re not comfortable saying that here, you can shoot me an email (my nym at the google mail thingamabob) and we can go from there.

  5. says

    Oh god. I didn’t even know such an atrocity existed, but apparently Finke at some point wrote a post titled “Do Marginalized People Need To Be Insulting To Be Empowered”


    He’s everything marginalized, grassroots social justice activists hate about “ivory tower academics”

  6. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Yep, couldn’t get two paragraphs into that post. Wow.

    Not sure I said before, but Giliell, I enjoyed your posts about de Botton’s ridiculousness.

  7. Beatrice says

    I tried to be brave and forge on, but I got bored with the article.

    I’m not sure whether he honestly doesn’t get what Mellow Monkey is saying, or he just doesn’t give a fuck.

  8. glodson says

    I don’t know all of his writings, but I’ve known a few people that go on long and meandering posts which seems to be a sort of insulation. They just say so much that it exhausts the reader into not criticizing.

  9. Ogvorbis: Now with Boltcutters! says

    I’m not sure whether he honestly doesn’t get what Mellow Monkey is saying, or he just doesn’t give a fuck.

    Recognizing his privileged position would require change on his part so he denies the existence of privilege in any way, shape or form.

    I took a look at that wall of text and got through two paragraphs.

  10. opposablethumbs says

    Ogvorbis, I hugely hope that you’re all right. That if - if – there are any other memories coming to the surface, you’re able to cope. Keep reminding yourself how much you are valued as a good person, because people around you (and all these oddballs on the internet in the far-flung Horde) know you’re a good person. Try to take it easy on yourself, if you can.
    Tony, aw damn – can it be mended? (Sometimes I think the body does things like that when we’re not looking, if you’re feeling really down already. Like, you know, stress or worry makes you more likely to be clumsy, that kind of thing). Hope you can mend it. :::hugs::
    Hey, rq! I don’t know … OK I guess. I could certainly do with some more work, but the only thing I got offered so far this week was something I can’t do (grrr). And the OH’s health is not so clever. But the Spawn and I are healthy, and we have socialised medicine so there’s plenty of good fortune to appreciate!

    And while I’m thinking about it, has anyone had any success in dealing with tinnitus? Any recommendations of anything worth a try, I could pass on to the sufferer? (apologies if I ever asked about that before, I can’t remember)

  11. Parrowing buıʍoɹɹɐd says

    I also wanted to let you know I enjoyed your posts, Giliell. You had me actually laughing aloud at one point, which almost never happens!

    Portia and rq:

    Yeah, no telecommuting :(. And what would I do without my cat-kids?! (Even though one of them (I’m side-eyeing the orange and white one in my avatar) peed outside his bathroom just now and is a very bad boy.)

    Yeah, I think I will look into whether there are other opportunities with them, but I’ll likely apply also. Talking about it is good because I’m getting ideas for my kick-ass not-a-cover letter. I will entice them with dreams of cheesecake.

    And I hope Escape Artist Cat makes his way back inside soon, rq!

  12. Ogvorbis: Now with Boltcutters! says

    That if – if – there are any other memories coming to the surface, you’re able to cope. Keep reminding yourself how much you are valued as a good person, because people around you (and all these oddballs on the internet in the far-flung Horde) know you’re a good person. Try to take it easy on yourself, if you can.


    For the past three nights, I have had nightmares in which I am taking a younger boy by the hand, putting a cub scout uniform on him, and dragging him to the rapist. i am so scared right now that I may have helped him abuse other children, that I may have helped to trap other children, that I may have helped recruit other children. I vaguely remember two of us going to the next grade down in the elementary school and talking to the boys about how fun cub scouts is and i think that at least one of those younger boys, one of the new bobcats, became part of it. Scared of who I am again.


    Sorry. Scared.

  13. Portia, who will be okay. says


    I will entice them with dreams of cheesecake.

    that’s just not fighting fair! :)

    It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It was not your choice. You had no real choice. Remember that. Cling to that. Repeat it over and over if you have to. It was not your fault. Whatever happened, it was not your fault. You were being manipulated and abused and tortured. It’s not your fault.

    No need to apologize. I’m so sorry you’re scared.

  14. Matt Penfold says

    That post of Fincke’s, the one about Mellow Monkey. It is hardly, what’s the word I’m looking for ? Oh yes, civil.

  15. glodson says

    Matt Penfold: You made it all the way through? I’m impressed. That’s like climbing Everest while dragging a bus behind you.

  16. Beatrice says

    I agree, Matt, dancing around somebody’s points while carefully avoiding accidentally getting one of them is pretty uncivil. As is boring one’s readers to death.

    I wouldn’t wish two days in a closed room with Fincke to my worst enemy.

  17. Portia, who will be okay. says

    I read the last couple sentences as well as the first and I can’t help wondering what the hell an “appeal to sincerity” is. Is it code for assuming good faith? In what world are we obligated to do that at this point? Weird.

  18. Matt Penfold says

    Matt Penfold: You made it all the way through? I’m impressed. That’s like climbing Everest while dragging a bus behind you.

    I nearly nodded off a couple of times.

  19. glodson says

    What the hell is wrong with me? Why am I trying to be nice to someone who is being dishonest? Why don’t I just call the guy a stupid fuck and be done with it?

    Sigh. For some reason, I do respond to people being polite-ish like they are arguing in good faith even when I know they aren’t.

    It does make it a bit more fun when I finally lose my patience and call them a stupid fuck.

  20. Matt Penfold says

    I read the last couple sentences as well as the first and I can’t help wondering what the hell an “appeal to sincerity” is. Is it code for assuming good faith? In what world are we obligated to do that at this point? Weird.

    I am quite sure the vast majority of bigots are quite sincere in their beliefs. What I am not willing to accept is that they have any right to be sincere.

  21. Portia, who will be okay. says

    So in summary, he’s saying “I said shitty things, but instead of saying they were shitty, you should really all be recognizing that I said them sincerely.” Got it.

  22. Matt Penfold says

    So in summary, he’s saying “I said shitty things, but instead of saying they were shitty, you should really all be recognizing that I said them sincerely.” Got it.

    Yeah. He might have learnt that from Tony Blair, who is keen to point out that however much people might disagree with his decisions over Iraq, we should recognise that he was being sincere when he made them.

  23. rq says

    So… shitty thing said sincerely are… shitty things? Hmm. Couldn’t read the whole post, but I scrolled through it. What jumped out was the whole ‘I have done [good things], so all things I do are good!’ idea. While ignoring the whole point.

    And I agree with Portia, Parrowing. Using cheesecake as a weapon is hardly fair. But then, so is requiring people to live within commuting distance of New York. /snark

    Improbable Joe
    Does that cat always have that ebil squint on?

  24. cicely says

    I get my tooth fixed today! Yay!
    :) :) :)

    Portia: There is no spoon—there is only Zuul.

    We had some discussion about farcebork.

    There ya go, chigau—fixed it for ya!

    I must say, that if there were a “Medieval Martial Arts” dojo* nearby, that’s one form of exercising at a gym I’d actually be tempted to do. The only one that comes to mind.

    Society for Creative Anachronism. Fighter practices.

    This is just like Budapest all over again.
    We remember it very differently.

    didgen: Happy delurking—and a theistic parent telling their child that they will go to hell for atheism is depressingly normal. It’s why I haven’t told my mother; I’ve seen how she responded to Sister1 changing from Xianity to Buddhism, and I’ve seen how she responded to Niece changing to Wicca.
    Well, that, plus I’m a colossal coward.

    bluentx: *pouncehug*

    rq: Bad news! In many places, telling kids religiously based Bad Things is officially not child abuse—it is a duty. Srsly. Parents have been denied custody and/or visitation because the denied parent was an atheist. And therefore immoral, unethical, the whole litany. You know. The only likely “hook” to hang it on would be the suicidal ideation.

    The Complete Works of H. P. Lovecraft. Free.

    Dah-rool, dah-rool! Thanks, Crudely Wrott

    *moar hugs* and emotional support for Ogvorbis. By the truck-load.

    iJoe: Glad to see that the morning seems to be treating you better!

    And back up a second truck-load for Tony.

    Next Page!

  25. Pteryxx says

    Ogvorbis: even more, It. Was. Not. Your. Fault. As many times as you need to hear it, as loudly as it needs to be said.

    Situations where kids gather and socialize, like sports teams, charities, and Boy Scouts are supposed to be fun and trusted places for kids to be, everyone knows that; that is why predators set their traps within them. The predator grooms whole organizations and does their charity work well so that they’ll have an insulating layer of adults and kids saying what a great person they are. Even adults with training don’t want to believe this person they trust could be a rapist, even with evidence staring them in the face. (Otherwise I would’ve left my partner many years ago.)

    Ogvorbis, you as a child were being manipulated by adults who were experts at manipulating children. None of it was your fault.

  26. Parrowing buıʍoɹɹɐd says

    rq & Portia:

    The annoying part is that when I did live within commuting distance of NYC, I never saw ads for jobs that I thought I would fit well.

    Speaking of using cheesecake as a weapon: One time I accidentally doubled one of the cheesecake ingredients, making the consistency way too jiggly but the taste still delicious. So I said to my sister, “[Sister’s name], I think this will be the one time in your life you will hear these words, so listen carefully and answer wisely. Would you like to go outside and have a cheesecake fight?” My sister, being the astute woman she is, said, “Uhh, of course!” So we went outside and threw cheesecake in each other’s faces. It was the most satisfying fight I’ve ever had.

  27. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    On this day in 1974 Carl Sagan sent Timothy Leary a letter in prison

    On this day in 1974, shortly before visiting Timothy Leary in prison, Carl Sagan sent the psychedelic pioneer a letter discussing evolution, the possibility of extraterrestrial life, and the details of the upcoming visit. The postscript read:

    P.S. The enclosed poem, ‘The Other Night’ by Dianne Ackermann [sic] of Cornell, is something I think we both resonate to. It’s unfinished so it shouldn’t yet be quoted publically.

    But the poem was eventually finishes and along, with fourteen others, included in Diane Ackerman’s 1976 poetry anthology The Planets: A Cosmic Pastoral (public library) — a whimsical and wonderful ode to the universe, celebrating its phenomena and featuring a poem for each planet in the Solar System, along with one specifically dedicated to Carl Sagan.

    poems at the linky

  28. says

    rq: “Ebil squint”? yeah, pretty much. Luckily, she sleeps most of the day and night. Her ebil is mitigated by her lazy.

    Ogvorbis, add my support and concern to the rest you’re getting. You’re a good and decent person.

    cicely, yay for your fixed fang. I probably need to go see a dentist, it has been probably 3-4 years now.

  29. rq says

    Dammit. Looks like I was engaged in Wishful Thinking. It’s because, you see, I have been Blessed with the Transcendental Horseflu, through which I receive supernatural knowledge from Horse Itself, allowing me to know Truths beyond the rational.

    I double up on what Pteryxx said. All the way. With additional *hugs*
    Not your choice, not your fault!!

  30. Pteryxx says

    *shin-deep pile of fluffy anklehugs for Tony*

    Joe, could you shoot me an email? Mine is just my nym at the gee mail thingy.

    Thumper, re the Thunderdome question, I’m not angry with you. I believe you sincerely want to learn, it’s an important subject, and I’m willing to answer, but it’ll take every spoon I have to actually write out what I think of my own rape.

    Aaand that’s all I can manage now.

    *leaves anklehug feet prints for the Horde*

  31. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Meta, so I’ve removed names:

    [meta] didn’t call you a liar, [meta] he said you were mistaken.

    he also didn’t claim you didn’t say the things you did back then. he’s linking to his own comments because he’s saying that you’re mistaken about a)him not backing off; and b)him not caring

    Hasn’t it been pretty clearly established that when someone finds something insulting or sees a harmful implication that you didn’t intend in something you said, the appropriate response is “I’m sorry, that wasn’t what I meant to say at all. I apologize for hurting you unintentionally” instead of “you’re lying?” “Correcting” others’ lived experiences of one’s behavior toward them is called “gaslighting” when MOST people do it…

  32. rq says

    I agree re: cheesecake fight… But what a waste of cheesecake, Parrowing. I hope most of it landed on your face, at any rate! ;)

    Improbable Joe
    Now I’m going to think of cecily as Bucky. And all because you said ‘fang’.

  33. opposablethumbs says

    Ogborbis, that must be terrifying. Remember and remind yourself – and we’ll keep reminding you too – you were a young child, in the grip of a powerful (physically and psychologically) authority figure and skilled, experienced manipulator. It is not the fault of a ten-year-old if a powerful adult harms them and abuses them and forces them to be his instrument in his abuse of others. You were not making choices: you had no choice. Many adults have been unable to get out of situations like this; what chance does a ten-year-old have?
    Take care of yourself. The blame attaches to him, not to any of the young children. (incidentally, if he did that to you he almost certainly did it to others. We wouldn’t blame any of those other young children he forced to hurt each other – and by the same token, no blame attaches to you.)
    cicely, yay for tooth. And re Alan Rickman (from waaay back, which I forgot earlier): You Are Demonstrably, Unequivocally and Wholly Correct. That is all.

  34. says

    So, I just finished playing Dead Space 3 on XBox 360. That was fucking satisfying. Unfortunate though, for the next game I’m playing, Aliens: Colonial Marines. I feel strangely sorry for the game and its creators, that it should have to be released a week after the GREATEST SPACE HORROR GAME EVER! and cannot possibly compete.

    … went and started playing it. It looks terrible, just terrible. Like Halo 2 or something of that generation of games.

  35. says

    More anti-educational nonsense from Oklahoma:

    In biology class, public school students can’t generally argue that dinosaurs and people ran around Earth at the same time, at least not without risking a big fat F. But that could soon change for kids in Oklahoma: On Tuesday, the Oklahoma Common Education committee is expected to consider a House bill that would forbid teachers from penalizing students who turn in papers attempting to debunk almost universally accepted scientific theories such as biological evolution and anthropogenic (human-driven) climate change….

    Stated another way, students could make untestable, faith-based claims in science classes without fear of receiving a poor mark.

  36. Ogvorbis: Now with Boltcutters! says

    even more, It. Was. Not. Your. Fault. As many times as you need to hear it, as loudly as it needs to be said.

    Right now, I’m having a hard time keeping that up at the surface. I abused a little girl. I think supplied new victims. I think I may have helped out in setting up new victims. I know that what little choice I had was not a real choice but I still did it. Don’t we keep saying that intent doesn’t matter?

    (incidentally, if he did that to you he almost certainly did it to others. We wouldn’t blame any of those other young children he forced to hurt each other – and by the same token, no blame attaches to you.)

    I’m sure he did. Because we all stayed quiet. I didn’t stay quiet so that others would be abused, I stayed quiet to let him keep abusing but wasn’t that the effect? The unintended consequence?

    Damnit! I thought I remembered everything. I thought there were no more surprises. How the hell could I not remember supplying him? And the more I think on it (not much choice right now) the more I am sure that I did. Get out of my head you fucker!

  37. says

    Azkyroth… let it go, OK? Nothing good is going to come of you stirring shit, even in a “meta” way. Sometimes, some people just don’t get along, and that’s OK if they can also leave each other alone. Let’s see if we folks who don’t get along can also give each other space and leave each other alone. Please?

  38. cicely says

    Ogvorbis: Not your choice. Not your fault.

    So… shitty thing said sincerely are… shitty things?

    Shitty things said sincerely are sincerely shitty.

    It’s because, you see, I have been Blessed with the Transcendental Horseflu, through which I receive supernatural knowledge from Horse Itself, allowing me to know Truths beyond the rational.

    Well…explicitly not rational, certainly! And arguably Unnatural.
    After all, you gotta consider the Source.

  39. broboxley OT says

    Og, sorry man, bad shit showing up in your head is not fun. Been living the past week with pre, during and post traumatic stress syndrome. with a real bad anniversary showing up in a couple of days. All we can do is muddle thru, rage against the unfixable and smile at the small kindnesses

  40. glodson says


    So, I just finished playing Dead Space 3 on XBox 360. That was fucking satisfying. Unfortunate though, for the next game I’m playing, Aliens: Colonial Marines. I feel strangely sorry for the game and its creators, that it should have to be released a week after the GREATEST SPACE HORROR GAME EVER! and cannot possibly compete.

    … went and started playing it. It looks terrible, just terrible. Like Halo 2 or something of that generation of games.

    I haven’t gotten excited for Dead Space 3 since I found out about the co-op. I didn’t like that addition in RE6 because it got too action oriented, and I worry that the horror will be sapped with a co-op partner. I don’t know how it plays, I just fear that it is more action than horror.

    And yea… Colonial Marines…. If you are a fan of the movie Aliens, there is… let’s just call it a really crappy decision in the plot and leave it at that.

  41. says


    The good news is that the co-op is voluntary: it plays just like a single-player game in campaign mode unless you CHOOSE to have a live partner. You aren’t dragging an AI around with you through any of the game, there’s no escort missions, none of that nonsense. There’s an optional side mission that requires co-op that I’ll probably never play because I’m a loner, dammit!

    The bad news is, still more action than horror, although resource management becomes nerve-wracking in the later stages. There were points where I was on the verge of death and struggled to even get a small health pack before being ripped to shreds. There’s not as much real scares stuff as I would like, but the tension gets ratcheted up pretty high at a bunch of points.

  42. Portia, who will be okay. says

    You were a child. Your intent doesn’t matter in that you had no choice in the matter. We tell people who make bad choices that their intent doesn’t matter because the outcome was bad regardless of their intent. In that situation, your intent didn’t matter because it had no effect on the outcome, because you had no choice.

    It was not your fault.

    I’ll be a broken record as long as I need to be.

  43. says

    *Hugs* Intent doesn’t matter, but choice does. You had no choice, literally none. There was nothing you could have done. Given the time and place, the probability that you could have changed anything even if you had spoken out is zero, or as close as makes no difference. It wasn’t just the abuser, the entire system was stacked against you. It was not your fault. You are a good, worthwhile person.

    Others; *hugs* as needed, I’ve kind of lost track of things while writing.

  44. glodson says


    That’s better than I thought it would be. I will have to try it out in the near future. I loved 1 and 2, so I can deal with the loss of horror to a degree.

    It might have to wait until after I get Last of Us in a little bit.

  45. Portia, who will be okay. says

    150 years ago today, my great great *mumble mumble* grandfather, a Union soldier, wrote in his journal: “Camp near Salem, Tennessee. Drilled some today and amused ourselves the rest of the time as best we could. But I am lonesome today.”

  46. glodson says

    I haven’t done a Silent Hill since 3. I might have to check it out then. Silent Hill 2 was such a great game, nothing from Silent Hill seems to get back to that.

  47. Portia, who will be okay. says

    You know the hot hot wave that flows over you when you’re embarrassed? That’s what happens when I call a real estate agent to ask him to send me a purchase agreement and he says, “Uh, I did.” *headdesk*

  48. rq says

    It’s especially bad if I’ve used my Angry Voice in such a situation. My usual response? “Oh… uh… umm, thanks. Sorry.” With lotsnlotsnlots of blushing (I’m capable of turning all kinds of shades of red… At least on the phone it can’t be seen!)

  49. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Thankfully I thought I had forgotten to ask for it and forgotten that he had sent it, so I wasn’t combative at all, haha. But it’s actually comforting to think that at least he couldn’t see my face! He was very charitable about it, and said it’s possible he sent it to Timbuktu, and that’s why it wasn’t in my inbox (though it was).

    I turn beet red at the drop of a hat pin. (Doesn’t even take a whole hat).

  50. rq says

    Me, too. :/ I lose the power of speech, too. Anything longer than a monosyllable gets stuck in my throat.

  51. cicely says

    Backing up a third truck-load of hugs and emotional support.
    broboxley, this one’s for you.

  52. Hekuni Cat, MQG says


    I get my tooth fixed today!

    Hooray! and *hugs*

    It’s why I haven’t told my mother

    My mother knows, but it’s not something we discuss. At 87, she’s easily confused these days, and it would distress her (and me), so we just don’t talk about it.

    Ogvorbis: Not your choice. Not your fault.

    What cicely said. Ogvorbis – You are a very good person. *lots of hugs and much chocolate*

    broboxley OT – *hugs and chocolate*

  53. Portia, who will be okay. says

    I have just completed two tasks (one of which was just starting something) that had been hanging over my head and making me feel crappy and guilty for no good reason. I’m going to go get some cheap valentines chocolate as a self-reward. :D

  54. Beatrice says

    *piles of hugs* for Tony and Ogvorbis

    Don’t we keep saying that intent doesn’t matter?

    When there is a choice. You did not have one, at least not a real choice.

  55. rq says

    Today, I was productive:
    I beat the fear and made all three phone calls I needed to make (residence registry, water supply, garbage takeaway), and wrote the email I needed to write (security systems). /proudofmyself
    Also, more of the kitchen is now clean (rid of past germs, at least). I just may be over this flu thing after all.

    *hugs* and *morehugs* and *evenmorehugs* for those in need!!

  56. Ogvorbis: Now with Boltcutters! says

    Not your choice. Not your fault.

    I still keep coming back to this: I caused harm to others. It keeps coming back.

    You are a very good person.

    The more I remember about who I am, the more I know about me, the harder that is to believe.

    Don’t we keep saying that intent doesn’t matter?

    When there is a choice. You did not have one, at least not a real choice.

    I still went the easy way — a coward’s way — and hurt others through my action or inaction. I went down the path of least resistance, the path of harming others.

    This is something that really scares me. When push came to shove, I did something that sickens me. Were I living in 1930s Germany, would I have done the same? gone along to get along? What is Hannah Arendt’s phrase? “All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.” Or for weak people to take the easy way out.

    I thought I was past all this — I really did. Remembering S’s name unleashed a logjam and I thought I knew the worst about me. I guess I was wrong.

  57. Portia, who will be okay. says

    I forgot to offer hugs to Tony about the bracelet. Would you mind checking in here if you’re around? So much love and sympathy, my friend.

    rq: *high five!* way to go :)

    I have Ferrero Rocher to reward myself. Om nom nom.

  58. says


    I’m going to remind you that the place where you’re wrong is in assigning your current adult agency and maturity to the child that you used to be, and it is unfair to the both of you. Maybe it is a way for you to remove the feeling of powerlessness that you felt then, by convincing yourself now that you had some sort of control over the situation, but the cost of that is too damned high.

  59. Portia, who will be okay. says

    I don’t know if i feel not crappy today because i’m getting things done, or if i am getting things done because I feel not crappy….but I’m not complaining.

  60. Beatrice says


    You were a horribly abused child. What you did is in no way “an easy way out”. You may have felt you were being spared while another was abused, but I think there is a strong possibility that was done intentionally to ensure your silence, because you would feel guilty. Partly that, and partly the fact that forcing one child to abuse another or lead another one into abuse is a form of abuse on itself. You may have been spared one form of torment, while enduring another. It was not “an easy way out”, it wasn’t even a choice.

    You had no real choice. Especially not a choice a child can make.

  61. opposablethumbs says

    chocolate-covered hugs and tea to broboxley. And a load of delayed-release hugs for the bad anniversary; I wish you safe through it.
    There are a lot of good people in the Horde who have had some horrendous things inflicted upon them, and I would just like to say I wish you all safe and well, I wish you utterly rid of the perpetrators and I wish you free of them. It’s nobody’s job to be a cinematically “brave survivor! What an inspiration!” or any such bullshit, but as it happens I find you to be awesomely good people.
    Chocolate and puppies (and/or kittens, but possibly not horses just in case), ad libitum.

  62. Dhorvath, OM says

    You are not the child who became you. None of us is. That you were led down a horrific path by an adult is something that no child is prepared adequately for and likely one that no child can be prepared adequately for. My heart aches to hear you blame yourself for someone else’s crimes.

  63. says

    Portia… don’t complain, right? I’m feeling pretty good today too, got some stuff done around the house, went for a nice walk with my dog, played some guitar, actually ate something… life is pretty decent.

    Speaking of guitar… my shit sounds real yo! (is that how the kids talk?) Will sound better once the new tubes come in and I don’t have to hear that weird whistling noise and fear an explosion. :)

  64. says

    Good evening
    The goodness of formerly frozen pizza…

    So, tonight was the first night of new classes at my job, which means new faces and it showed me again what diverse people there are.
    First, there’s often the creepy guy who wants to learn Spanish for his “chica” who is usually in the Dominican Republic.

    Then there was an old participant and by old I don’t only mean that he already took classes with me some years ago but also 80+. Yes folks, you are not too old to learn new stuff.

    And lastly there was a man from Nigeria who lives in France and now wants to learn Spanish in Germany. It also means that he speaks at least 4 languages already (and Spanish with a Fench accent that is dominated by Nigerian English is an unusual mix). And this guy is amazing. I enjoy teaching, but sometimes there are students from hell. And this guy is from heaven. Some people have the talent to put you at ease immediately and make you enjoy teaching them even more.

    Thanks, Portia and Parrowing
    Let me guess, it was the breadcrumbs…

    Big, big hugs.
    You were a child, and children are not held up to the standard of adults for a very good reason. They are dependent, they are easily scared, they are easily manipulated. You don’t pile upon one of those poor kids in the WBC, you look at them with pity even though they do the same hurtful things the adults do. But we understand that they have no choice.

    What is Hannah Arendt’s phrase? “All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.”

    She talked about adults. She didn’t talk about the 8 yo rosy cheeked Pimpfe of the Hitler Jugend.

    For you, too, broboxley

  65. ednaz says

    Hello All!
    I have *hugs* for everyone who wants one.
    There are *Regular Hugs*, and *Boa Constrictor Hugs* (a specialty of my grandpa’s). Also *Gentle Pats on the Arm*.
    Please take whichever kind you wish.
    And take some ♥ and some of my *Very Good Mood*.

    I come from a long line of food pushers. That has now spilled over into the *hugs* department. : )

  66. Cannabinaceae says

    Dear Horde: Wow. You are such a supportive and helpful group, you leave me in awe. I myself am neither as demonstrative nor as open as many of you, with either help or trust, either IRL or online, but I’m a better person (IMNSHO) simply for observing what goes on here when folks express their hurt and need. I hope that at least some of what I observe here has rubbed off on me. I can only feel unbelievably lucky and privileged (even beyond my white male USAian-ness) that I had as close to a Norman Rockwell upbringing as seems possible for someone on the tail end of the baby boom.

    Anyway, as far as SCA fighter practice goes – there actually is one kind of near me (“Bright Hills”), but it’s on Friday nights*! Argh! Also, even if not required, the “garb” thing is not at all to my liking. I was kind of peripherally involved with some SCA stuff in my youth, but found it not to my liking (similarly with Skiffy conventions).

    *Family pizza night. Uncle Cannabinaceae can’t (and doesn’t want to) get out of it; plus, the practice is not all that close for someone who hates driving as much as I do. Also, ‘danelaw Friday is Cannabinaceae beer-Monday (or beer-Tuesday, depending upon which day of the week I elect to start drinking my nine-servings-a-week of microbrew. Okay, it’s usually beer-Tuesday. There usually isn’t any beer Thursday through Sunday).

  67. ednaz says

    I feel so good. I must brag about my morning. : )
    I paid a bill here in town. Drove to the next town over. Went to the bank. Went to the pharmacy. Found what I needed for just a few dollars more than at what would have been my next stop. Drove back home. Stopped at the grocery store and the gas station, and got home before My Hoodlum had to leave for work.
    My legs are sore but that is o.k.
    A short nap will probably fix me. Then I can get moar stuff done! Yay!

    I wish I felt this good every day. : )

  68. moblues says

    *delurks due to lingering flu and boredom*
    Ya’ll seem like a nice bunch. Here have some lemony chicken and stars.
    So I’m fairly sure that my irony meter has been permanently bent by the newest camels w/hammers pledge post. Seems that he really is just that impressed with himself for some reason and he’s doesn’t seem to be allowing comments. I figured you guys might enjoy the chew toy.
    *turns back into mucus filled couch bump and reactivates lurking cloak*

  69. says

    Talking about misgendering, I got an honourable mention by Harriet Hall

    Another commenter says

    Hall saying that men have larger brains is simply wrong. Taller people have larger brains. Men are on average larger than women, so they have, on average, larger brains.

    The same words are wrong when I say them but right when he says them?! Instead of saying I am wrong, why not simply offer a possible explanation for a fact that we both agree on? (Actually, the evidence is mixed. Some studies found that men’s brains are still larger after correction for body size; some didn’t.)

    You would think that the handy picture I use as an avatar on skepchick as well would be enough to give peope a clue to my gender.
    I must also wonder why somebody as in telligent as Harriet Hall would be so stupid to think that “Men have larger brains than women” and “larger people have larger brains and men are on average larger” are one and the same. One is corelation, the other one causation.
    I guess the word I’m looking for is “dishonest”

  70. Parrowing buıʍoɹɹɐd says

    Giliell, yup, that was exactly it :D


    Hi, moblues! Feel better! And I’d just like to point out that the post still ends with “Your Thoughts?” :-/

  71. Parrowing buıʍoɹɹɐd says

    Just to be clear, my #592 referred to Giliell‘s #583. But I guess that sentence also applies in response to Giliell‘s last sentence in #591. :D

  72. rq says

    Yay ednaz! *clinks* for a productive day (and have a nice nap!).

    Hello, moblues. Been there, done that (re: flu) – get well soon!!

    Cat has now moved into the shed. But eating the food outside. Progress! (Although the outdoor food will need to be reconsidered, since today, one of the neighbouring dogs came by and licked the bowl clean. I just hope the dog doesn’t have a habit of running through backyards – say, while my children are playing outside. Unless we’ve met the dog, of course. Not a big fan of unfamiliar dogs sneaking around.)

    And on that note, *evenmorehugs* for Ogvorbis, broboxley and Tony, all of whom are not only good people, but excellent people whom I value as much as anyone I value in real life (and probably a lot more than many of the people I know in real life).
    Good night!

  73. Hekuni Cat, MQG says


    I wish I felt this good every day. : )

    I know this feeling. My yours last.

    moblues – Welcome to the Lounge. Get well soon.

  74. glodson says


    Welcome from a fellow newcomer. Hope you feel better soon.

    To no one: man, I loved the Planescape setting.

  75. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    One of the Larval Students I’m Wrangling is explaining things to another now. :3

  76. carlie says

    I’ll be in the hospital wing with moblues.
    I was dying earlier today. Then I died. Now I’m dead. (Parks and Rec ref)

    I had to lie down for an hour to get the energy to eat dinner. Thank the FSM my spouse is the best cook and housekeeper and child wrangler ever. It’s an upper respiratory thing. My lungs want to vacate my body to get away from the mucus, and keep trying to leap out of my throat. At least I think that’s what’s causing the coughing. And I’m so tired. And now kind of achey, and my throat hurts. And I’m whiny. Whiiiiine. I may have to cancel classes tomorrow.

  77. Portia, who will be okay. says

    (and all other sickies)
    Take care of yourself.
    Good luck if you have to dial any phones, I hear dialing with your face is uncomfortable ;)

  78. carlie says

    That is so weird – I wrote child wrangler without having seen Azkyroth writing about wrangling. It’s a wranglin’ kind of day. Yee-ha.

  79. Portia, who will be okay. says

    That was actually my next question…sounds like you’ve been betrayed by your lungs, if they’re trying to jump ship : /

    I’ve always wanted to be Leslie Knope, and I realized that by getting involved in municipal government, I’m one step closer. My little town even has an Eagleton equivalent.

  80. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Speaking of tv shows, I thought of another loss of J’s friendship…we were gonna have a Game of Thrones marathon when the second season came out on DVD. Ah well, guess I’ll have to put it on my “to buy when income is disposable” list :)

  81. John Morales says


    I was, however, not betrayed by any calzones.

    Pants can betray? :)


    I wouldn’t wish two days in a closed room with Fincke to my worst enemy.

    I reckon I’d enjoy that; lots of interesting discussion to be had, and a good learning opportunity.

    (Well, if given access to food, a sleeping mat and a toilet as well)

  82. glodson says

    The Game of Thrones show makes me wish I still have HBO. I really want to see it.

    Not that I watch a lot of TV these days anyways.

  83. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    It was a general point and, I think, a valid one. I’m sorry that you’re taking it personally, but I don’t think it qualifies as “bullying” to suggest, while trying not to make it personal, that the rules I’ve had forcefully imposed on me should be observed by everyone. And that’s all I’m going to say about it.

  84. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Stop bullying me in the Lounge.

    Joe claimed I didn’t care about his feelings. I said that wasn’t true. He called me a liar for saying this.

    His stance was that if I didn’t tell a lie — tell the lie that “I didn’t care about his feelings” — then I was lying. It’s a catch-22.

    He was also, as you put it, denying my lived experience, by claiming I was lying about my feelings. By your standard he was gaslighting me. Only he didn’t do it by saying “that is not true” — he explicitly called me a liar.

    He bullied me for hours last night and you’re using that as an opportunity to harass me too.

    You can bully me in Thunderdome. Stop bullying me in the Lounge.

  85. carlie says

    For those who have not experienced the joys of Parks and Rec, the referent scene is in this episode, starting at minute 7:23, with the continuation of that scene at 10:13. Hulu apparently won’t allow you to make time-stamped clips without an account now. I normally hate gross humor, but somehow this worked for me, probably because it focused on the emotions of the characters rather than the grossness of the actions.

  86. Portia, who will be okay. says

    I don’t normally like that kind of humor either (weak stomach about weak stomaches, I guess!) but you’re exactly right about why that scene was funny. It’s their reactions to the way they’re feeling, not their actual pain, that is funny.

    Good stuff.

    Gon’ take some instagrams of food now. Cuz Ima foodie.

  87. glodson says

    Tony: Glad you are feeling a little better.

    Here’s hoping you feel even better by the end of the night.

  88. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Aw, I’m glad, Tony. I’m even happier that you are feeling somewhat better. Maybe work helped give your brain something else to do?

  89. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Sgbm, I see your point. I had intended to communicate by removing the explicit names that the…observation? Advice? Wasn’t intended to be unidirectional; I clearly wasn’t as explicit as I should have been and was in particular a bit lazy about recognizing and addressing that because, in part, of a personal bias. I apologize.

    (I got a timeout submitting this and have now checked twice to see if it posted anyway before resubmitting it; apologies also if it surprise-double-posts).

  90. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Tony, if you have the spoons at the moment, I would call and leave a voicemail for a lawyer’s office. That way, you will get a call back and you can make the appointment. Unless you work tomorrow or something, and would miss the call. Anyway, I just would recommend doing it asap.

  91. opposablethumbs says

    Goodnight Horde, and particularly wishing a good night in your respective timezones to Ogvorbis and Tony and broboxley and anyone else who might be short of a few helpings of chocolate and hugs.

  92. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Azkyroth, thank you. That’s decent of you. If anyone wants to keep talking about it, I only request that that happen in Thunderdome.

  93. says

    So, I just got fired. And apparently I have no recourse, because even being full time doesn’t change the fact that I was still on a ‘probationary period.’ So the union can’t help, and they don’t even have to tell me why, just that I ‘didn’t meet standards.’ Assholes.

  94. glodson says

    Dalillama: Crap, that sucks. Goddamnit.


    Well, at least they didn’t reject the 13th Amendment. Progress, it happens in Mississippi just a little after most of the rest of the country.

  95. glodson says

    I was trying to find a bright spot. It is hard to be optimistic when we are talking about ratifying the 13th Amendment a wee bit late.

  96. carlie says

    Oh, Dalillama, I’m so sorry. Is there anyone there you were closer to who might be able to tell you what happened?

  97. carlie says

    It took me until just now to realize what the “I’m cold, but also hot” feeling meant. 100.7. *facepalm*

  98. says

    I had a frustrating conversation at work today. I realized later the guy was probably doing that thing people call the ‘gish gallup’ where you move subjects whenever someone challenges a point. First he was talking about how all psychiatrists and psychologists are more mentally ill than their patients ever thought about being, so how could they help anyone? I didn’t feel like arguing whether mental health professionals are actually any more likely to be ill than the general public, or bringing my personal (very good) experience with the mental health community into the conversation, so I just said something about maybe also being ill improves their ability to be empathetic with their patients. He didn’t know what to say to that, so he started talking about how all the mentally ill (you’ll understand he was using terms like “crazy” not “mentally ill”) were let out of insane asylums because some psychiatrist got a stupid idea that they could take their medication on their own, and now we have all these bipolar people (yes, he said bipolar – he didn’t know it, but he was standing in front of and talking ostensibly to me and a man who suffers from bipolar and takes his medication faithfully but still has some difficulty living with his illness) wandering around who don’t take their medication and who do all the violent crime we have.

    I tried to say something about how the closing of government funded mental hospitals was done more by politicians because of costs and the ideas of laymen, not professionals so far as I know, but he wouldn’t hear of that. And I tried to get in a word about the facts – that plenty of regular people with mental illnesses do live and work relatively normal lives, and that the mentally ill commit violent crimes at the same rates that the sane do, but he wouldn’t hear of it. And that’s where the conversation got weird. See, he personally thinks he has never had a violent impulse to kill someone, ever. So killing people is not natural, and is therefore proof that you are mentally ill – only the mentally ill kill anyone ever, because you are by definition mentally ill if you kill someone. I tried to tie the fact we’ve been killing each other for as long as we’ve had history and all of our close relatives in the animal kingdom are also known to not only kill other species but even within their own species, but he wouldn’t hear of either an argument from human history or any association with animals – he doesn’t feel like an ape, so he isn’t related to them, by golly! So I told him that what he feels and his personal introspection about his own tendency to violence is not proof of anything and what he needs to do is look at what science and facts have to say about how the world really works, and so he told me that science isn’t facts and even scientists, lots of scientists, are starting to not believe in the Big Bang anymore.

    At that point I had been ready to just be done with the conversation for a while, so at the ridiculous Big Bang non sequitor I just told him “you don’t know what you are talking about” and turned away to do something else.

    What was frustrating was the way his wandering to different subjects kept leaving me blinking and thinking “what? what does that have to do with anything?” And the recurring idea that my own personal introspection of myself and what I’ve concluded from observing others from the outside, even if it conflicts with what they would tell you happened to them, is the only proof of anything I ever need and if any “science” conflicts with it, well science isn’t facts anyway. Especially when people who put so much weight on their own experience and anecdotes from their own lives refuse to accept yours as valid for anything.

  99. says

    Bigotry in my town:


    “Although Pensacola Christian College claims that “the college does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, sex, or national origin” the school has a policy in place which plainly states that “Under no circumstances will pornography, premarital or extramarital sex, homosexuality, or other sexual perversions be permitted.” (http://www.pcci.edu/Pathway/ under ‘Accountability’). Two people were recently expelled from this school, one for being gay, the other for knowing his friend was gay and not telling the authorities of the college. This is discrimination, and something needs to be done about it…not just in this school, but it is a good place for the beginning of the end.

    Not asking anyone to sign the petition, just thought it was interesting.

  100. glodson says

    It sounds like you work with a real fucking idiot. I don’t know about “scientists” but I do know that most physicists pretty much just take the Big Bang as fact.

    Much of the problem is that people think that making a convoluted and long-winded argument made up of unconnected points is really an intelligent thing to do. Despite, as we all know, it not being.

  101. carlie says

    Dalillama – it may sound mercenery, but if you have a day left, try to get that person’s contact information asap. You’ll want them as a reference, and you can also ask if they would let you know if they find out what happened so you can use it as a learning experience (which will also be something good they can say about you as a reference if needed, that you were eager to understand what went wrong and improve)

  102. glodson says

    iJoe: I had so much hope for that game. A good Aliens game could have been great. Just great.

    Tony: Wow, that place reminds of me Bob Jones University. A place so backwards that the rest of us in SC made fun of it.

  103. says

    I think what strikes me is the really bad idea it is to expel someone for not snitching. That’s not a culture any sane community of any type should want to develop.

    I had a very close friend who was a minister and a closeted gay man. He was celibate and trying to be straight for over two decades before finally losing his faith (unfortunately, he wandered over into woo-land and now he’s a ‘shaman’ or something, but at least he’s happier and more authentically himself). He talked sometimes about being a ministerial student at a Baptist university and hearing professors say the things fundies still say today; the one that sticks in my head was that a professor said in a class that all gay people should be rounded up and put on an island and then the island should be nuked, and the time he asked a professor about homosexuality and was told all gay people were going to hell.

    Oh, and that college had a rule about ‘visual intercourse’ which is to say, that they felt if a pair of people (of the opposite sex, they didn’t consider that there would be gays in the student body) looked into each others’ eyes intently for 6 or more seconds this was unacceptable and constitute ‘visual intercourse’.

  104. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Oh, and that college had a rule about ‘visual intercourse’ which is to say, that they felt if a pair of people (of the opposite sex, they didn’t consider that there would be gays in the student body) looked into each others’ eyes intently for 6 or more seconds this was unacceptable and constitute ‘visual intercourse’.

    bahahahahahahaha, they even banned eye-fucking? That’s amazing.

    As a teenager, I toured Olivet Nazarene. I was told not to look in the cars in the parking lot after dark…because opposite sex people where not allowed in the dorms…so there was a lot of backseat action, apparently. I couldn’t really understand the rationale behind not being allowed to be alone with a boy, given that there were just other ways to achieve the goal. Thank gawd I dodged that bullet and just went to a loosey-goosey Lutheran liberal arts college. (That is hosting an acquaintance of mine’s wedding this fall. He and his fiance are happy that the college president approved a same-sex ceremony there :D )

  105. says

    I work with a lot of people like that unfortunately. One told me this cockamamie story about President Obama and abortion, and insisted over and over and over that he had researched this story himself and he knew for a fact that it was true. His story went something like this: 1) abortion is illegal at the federal level, like, all the time. Always. Illegal. 2) Obama, as a state senator in Illinois, didn’t like the fact that abortion was illegal, so he passed (you know, on his own, without anyone else in the legislature) a state law that made abortion legal in Illinois. 3) 90% of residents of Illinois opposed this law that Obama passed in Illinois, all by his lonesome. The really strange part? After we argued about this for a while, I reminded him that he had told me he was libertarian, didn’t care about social issues, and thought the government should be small and stay out of our hair, and that banning abortion didn’t fit with what he had told me his views were. His response was that ‘some people’ didn’t like Obama because of this situation that happened in Illinois, and he felt they had a right to their views. Why they had a right to them at lunch between me and him, I have no idea.

    (If you are wondering, the story he was apparently garbling was a bill that Obama voted against in the Illinois legislature that would have required any medical facility performing an abortion to take steps to save the life of any fetus who didn’t die in the abortion, and would have required such facilities to take extra, onerous steps in dealing with the wastes produced in performing abortions. It became an issue because Obama said when going to the US Senate he would have voted for a similar bill that had already passed the US Congress, and didn’t really ever explain why that one was different enough from the Illinois bill he voted against. I couldn’t find anything anywhere that broke down the residents of Illinois by their opinion on abortion, but I find it very hard to believe that 90% of them agree on any political subject that is in any way controversial. I could not get him to believe me that state laws on abortion do not overrule federal laws, never will, which was one of the most basic idiocies of that conversation.)

  106. consciousness razor says


    Damn. If that’s not evidence of crank magnetism, I don’t know what is.

    Proof that the conjunction fallacy isn’t fallacious! (kidding)

    What was frustrating was the way his wandering to different subjects kept leaving me blinking and thinking “what? what does that have to do with anything?”

    Isn’t it obvious? Everything has to do with everything. It’s all connected….

  107. glodson says

    deborahbell: Wow.

    Sadly, this sounds like conversations I’ve had with my family. I’ve had to argue that dinosaurs actually existed.

  108. says

    What scares me is I can almost still get into that perspective and remember when that felt like a reasonable way to have a conversation/debate. When the arguments they give would have seemed logical. When nothing about these conversations, instead of everything, would have tripped my ‘wait that’s not true, wait where’s the evidence for that, wait that’s an unfounded assumption’ alarms. Oh well, empathy isn’t bad, and knowing where I came from just makes me happier I got here. And the familiarity will fade with time.

  109. glodson says

    Huh, it just dawned on me that I’ve not really gone after anyone around here in an argument.

    I guess that’s what I get for hanging around on other sites waiting for a bigot to wander in. By the time I find the bigot here, the dogpile is often well underway.

  110. says

    glodson, when I was a child my mother taught me that dinosaurs didn’t exist and ‘maybe an elephant and a giraffe went into a cave together and died and the scientists just put the bones together wrong’. She was quite astonished when my fundie religious home school curriculum included dinosaurs as real. She did decide to believe them, but of course we did lots of christian science stuff, including attending a weekend conference put on by answers in genesis and buying their books.

  111. says

    Are you wanting an argument? I avoid them, usually. I am getting better about not just being silent and acting like I agree by not disagreeing when people say spectacularly awful things to me in person, but that’s mostly because not being seen as agreeing has become more important than avoiding the argument. Avoiding the argument is still more important than a lot of things, to me.

  112. glodson says

    Sounds like my little brother and his family now.

    My parents encouraged me when I had an interest in dinosaurs when I was younger. Now… they buy into the YEC crap as well.

    Sigh, it is amazing how this stuff always pops up.

  113. carlie says

    Dalillama – oh good, at least you have that.

    Eye babies – that was the Florida university, right? There we go, Pfft says Pensacola Christian College. Not that others don’t have the same rule, but that was the one that’s been talked about here.

  114. says

    The one that banned ‘visual intercourse’ that I was talking about is the main seminary of the Independent Baptist denomination, which is located in Springfield, MO, where that denomination’s headquarters are. Apparently it’s not a new idea. :)

    They also insisted women wear skirts, and then had metal mesh stairs that could easily be seen through, which always struck me as counterproductive.

  115. John Morales says


    Huh, it just dawned on me that I’ve not really gone after anyone around here in an argument.

    You’ve only got yourself to blame.

    I guess that’s what I get for hanging around on other sites waiting for a bigot to wander in. By the time I find the bigot here, the dogpile is often well underway.

    So what?

    (What, you seek virgin prey?)

  116. strange gods before me ॐ says

    What scares me is I can almost still get into that perspective and remember when that felt like a reasonable way to have a conversation/debate. […] the familiarity will fade with time.

    I’ve been an ex-libertarian for about a decade, and intellectually I still know how to argue from my old perspective.

    But a few years ago I remember having a surreal experience — a libertarian said something to me that shocked my conscience, and I realized that while I knew how to do the argument, I could not remember what it felt like to believe it.

  117. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    They also insisted women wear skirts, and then had metal mesh stairs that could easily be seen through, which always struck me as counterproductive.

    It reinforces women’s status as objects. It’s extremely productive, from a Patriarchal Piece of Shit perspective.

  118. Rossignol says

    I’m going to threadruptly delurk just to say hello to everybody!

    Also – Cannabinaceae- I’ve only just joined the Bright Hills SCA! I’m sorry to hear I won’t see you there.

  119. says

    Good morning, afternoon, evening, and/or night* to all!

    *hugs, headbonks, shoulder pats, and other gestures of comfort* <– FREE

    *Please choose the appropriate time-reference for your location and schedule and apply as necessary. I’ve given up on keeping track of who’s where… or is that when?

  120. Rossignol says

    I have to admit I’m a little disappointed that I so narrowly missed having my first post be numbered #666

  121. strange gods before me ॐ says

    What is Hannah Arendt’s phrase? “All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.”

    Not Arendt. Also not Edmund Burke, although it’s usually attributed to him, and he said something which could be imaginatively paraphrased that way, but then so did Plato.


    Depending on how specific a wording you’re looking for, Sergei Bondarchuk or John Stuart Mil are good candidates.

  122. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Well, I may end up delurking again for awhile, but not until tomorrow*. I am so bogged down and it’s going to get worse. I have 4 papers due on March 4th, all of them a minimum of 8 pages. On top of which, I have two major projects, one of which is original research for which I can’t actually find the material I’m supposed to be doing content analysis on**, three articles to write 4-pg critical responses to, three 5-pg analytic reaction papers, a mini-ethnography (of a religious setting!), an intellectual biography to write on a social theorist, and five books to write reviews on, all due over the next 9 weeks or so.

    *Right now, I’m just hiding from it all because my brain won’t stop doing the “AAACCCCKKKK! YOU’RE GOING TO FAIL!!!!!” thing. Tomorrow, I’ll devote myself to getting it all done and not failing.

    **If anyone in the Horde could point me in the right direction, I need the actual text (preferably printer-friendly) of all anti-abortion laws passed in PA and ND from 1992-2012, which were signed into law, regardless of whether or not they were later enjoined, found unconstitutional, etc. I have an appointment with a reference librarian on Friday but the sooner I can find them, or find the right source to search for them, the sooner I can stop freaking out that my project is going down the tubes.
    — —
    That article on gym class really hit home. I was an incredibly active person as a kid, which is what happens when you grow up on 200 acres of fields and woods and a mother who (with love) threw us out of the house and didn’t really expect or want us back until supper time. We hiked, built forts, swam in the pond, etc. Gym was horrible, but outside of it, I was really active. Until my mid-30s, I was an avid backpacker (with almost 1000 miles logged on the Appalachian Trail and a good 300 on shorter day trails). But then I took a fall and damaged by shoulder, and I couldn’t carry a pack for any length of time so I just…kind of gave up.

    I think what I need is an exercise program with big movements, working the whole body. I love dancing, so maybe something along those lines will work.

    didgen @ 408
    I hope your grandson is able to get the help he needs. Many *hugs* for your family.

    *waves to bluentx*

    *Hugs* to you to, dealing with cat problems. I wish you a resolution to the situation, one way or another.

    Glad Boy is enjoying his new job — and being better paid! Ugh on Barletta. Sadly, my old district has Tom Marino.

    *hugs* and many warm thoughts as you cope with whatever may be lurking. Be kind to yourself. Repeating what every one else has said: you were not at fault. You were a child who was manipulated and coerced, and you had no more choice in your actions than if a gun had been held to your head.

    I managed to get rides to and from campus, which slightly mitigated my expressions of hatred of the white, cold misery that is Fargo-Moorhead. Walking across the mall between classes was just nasty. I even chose to eat out of the vending machine for lunch rather than go outside again.

    Fincke’s article
    Dear me, what a wall o’ text. I got past where he quoted Mellow Monkey, but after that it was all Charlie Brown’s mother. “Wah wah wah wah wah-wah.”

    Although this made me laugh: “I do not ever say such arrogant things as “I’m a great philosopher and shall dismiss your protests while once again explaining my rightness”.” Sure, you may not come right out and baldly state that, but your posts certainly leave no doubt that that is how you think. Like this one, in which you completely ignore what Mellow Monkey was telling you in order to fill your 1000-word quota of big thoughts from on high.

    *hugs* and warm thoughts to you as well.

    I’m sorry. I somehow missed your comment about M’s bracelet. *hugs* Things like that mean so much and when they break, it’s like being right back at that first moment of loss.

    Mine memorializes my late brother-in-law and broke on the damned fifth anniversary of his death. Since it wasn’t repairable, I took to keeping it on my nightstand and carrying it with me when I travel. I have to hold it every night before I turn out the lamp.

    Welcome! I hope you’re feeling better soon.

    I hope you’re feeling better soon as well!

    I am so sorry! That is just so rotten.

    Visual intercourse?! My goodness.

    One of my cousin’s is a fundie whose older daughters attended a Bible College in Wisconsin. A couple years ago, there was quite a controversy that just divided the campus and caused all kinds of prayerful heartache which caused said cousin to withdraw her daughters from the school and find a “more Biblically-spirited” one. The controversy? A group of female students had requested permission to wear pants or long johns under their dresses in the winter.

    Well, this comment is ridiculously long, so rather than refresh, I’m just going to post it.

  123. Rossignol says

    Portia – I’ve never made a habit of turning down drinks, digital or otherwise.

    Speaking of which! Does anyone have any grog recipes that aren’t just water, rum and citrus? I find the historical recipes don’t often make for particularly agreeable beverages.

  124. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Mine memorializes my late brother-in-law and broke on the damned fifth anniversary of his death. Since it wasn’t repairable, I took to keeping it on my nightstand and carrying it with me when I travel. I have to hold it every night before I turn out the lamp.

    Mine is…well I guess mine requires a vegetarian warning, so.
    Mine is a necklace made of a throng of rawhide from the last deer my cousin killed on a hunting trip before he died at age 16, 9 years ago next month. For a long time I hung it on my rearview mirror, but then it got so faded that I’m worried it’ll break, so it resides on my bathroom counter. I can’t bear to wear it, somehow.

  125. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Interview in the morning…I’m beginning to get the nerves. But if I am nervous tonight, odds are I will be calm as a cucumber tomorrow.

  126. says

    I read a lot of fiction, as some may remember, and getting new books is always a thrill. I used to use the library mostly, but somehow the distance to the library here where I live now makes it so inconvenient I stopped being able to get books back in a reasonable time or keep myself in books, even though it’s only about 30 minutes by the highway. Such is life in a big city I guess. So lately I’ve taken to buying used books on Amazon, which I promise myself I will eventually sort through and sell back somehow the ones I don’t care to keep forever. So far that hasn’t happened. In any case, I got some new books in the mail today, because I put an order in recently, and thought I might share the stack that’s currently sitting next to me, even though I’ve not read them so can’t promise they are recommendable.

    I read science fiction/fantasy so if you aren’t interested you can skip now. :) Today I received in the mail:

    The Partials by Dan Wells
    Up The Walls of the World by James Tiptree
    Eifelheim by Michael Flynn
    Beholder’s Eye by Julie E Czerneda
    The Pledge by Kimberly Derting

    I also just read American Elsewhere by Robert Jackson Bennett, which was really pretty good, and surprising, and weird, and affecting. I dreamed weird dreams every night while I was reading it (not sure if that’s a recommendation or not :P) though not about the book exactly.

    I’m the most excited about Up The Walls of the World by “James Tiptree” which is actually the penname of a woman author. I should have gotten Her Smoke Rose Up Forever, but I decided to start with Tiptree on a novel rather than short stories.

  127. Socio-gen, something something... says

    Rossignol: Welcome!

    Portia: That sounds like an interesting way to remember someone who enjoyed hunting. I can understand not being able to wear it, though. Like, maybe it keeps the memories too close?

    Good luck with your interview!

  128. Crudely Wrott says

    oh my lands and stars. so much to cover.

    I want to tell Oggie to step back a couple of million miles and get a wider view of things. I want to tell Oggie that I, too, did some things as a child that, upon remembrance, upon reflection, make my face heat up like a furnace. My comfort is knowing that time is a salve. At least in one case I have been forgiven; in another there is no way to know. I choose to accept that my actions are understood as the actions of a child. Oggie, I hope you find a way to heal. You are really a wonderful person who tells wonderful stories about real life and I don’t want you to fall away from us (me). Please trust yourself and those who love you. Lessons learned, OK?

    This from Cannabinaceae:

    Dear Horde: Wow. You are such a supportive and helpful group, you leave me in awe. I myself am neither as demonstrative nor as open as many of you, with either help or trust, either IRL or online, but I’m a better person (IMNSHO) simply for observing what goes on here when folks express their hurt and need. I hope that at least some of what I observe here has rubbed off on me. I can only feel unbelievably lucky and privileged (even beyond my white male USAian-ness) that I had as close to a Norman Rockwell upbringing as seems possible for someone on the tail end of the baby boom.

    Yeah. I’ll sure as hell second that. I’ve read comments all over the news services and many blogs for years and the take away lesson is that most of them are either poor satire and snark or total exemplars of illiteracy and idiocy. That’s why I lurk here and occasionally offer up something of my own.

    The folks here have done the near impossible which is to form a coherent body of disparate minds and styles and druthers to create something wonderful.

    I know that there are some Hordelings out there that are hurting and who are battling circumstances that are daunting. To all of you, including Tony (who tries so valiantly) and Deborabell (who also values truth in human relations) and to all in need I offer my insufficient comfort and hugs. You too, Improbable Joe. (Something tells me that one day you will look back and see that the prefix “im” is no longer necessary. That’s a story for a future day.)
    Now for something that is extremely difficult. It has taken me months to work up to this. It is against everything that has sustained me all my life and I even get a little sick as I type. OK, here goes . . .

    I need help.

    I have severe and constant neck and back pain. It has essentially made an invalid of me over the past few months. I labored under the illusion that it would get better. I’ve burned through all my savings. I am near penniless.

    This week I’ll check into the local hospital in hopes of getting some diagnostic work done. I do not know how the hospital will recoup their expenses. Nor do I know how I am going to pay my bills, all of which I am behind on now.

    I am ignorant of the means by which the indigent receive health care. For my ignorance I assume full fault. For my healing I have to, for the first time in my life, depend on others. This is contrary to my upbringing and my nature. I am so embarrassed to admit it and it’s taken me until the last couple of steps before the precipice to say anything. It is a hard thing. For me it is a very hard thing.

    I have always been self sufficient and capable. Up until two years ago I was vigorous and strong. I am almost sixty two years old and not long ago I could work twenty year olds into the ground. Now, I am weak and in pain. My hand is forced. I have to put my body and my health in the hands of others. For reasons irrational and complex I have delayed doing so.

    Dammit. This is so hard to say but I choose to say it here because I know that compassionate and resourceful people dwell here. The Horde is a deep well. I’ve come to feel quite well disposed (OK, affectionate) toward many of its denizens.

    Please. Advice. Counsel. Direction to resources. Perhaps a visit in person. A small donation. Anything to help me bail my poor ass out of this spiral. The humiliation that I am feeling has now been superseded by the need to seek care for my self at the expense of others. It is a novel and unwelcome situation and I’m not sure how to go about it.

    I’m in Goldsboro, NC. In a cheap motel. My email is carpentersmith2002 at yahoo.

    hoo boy here we go
    takes deep breath
    clicks submit
    hoo boy

  129. Portia, who will be okay. says

    And new books, oooooh. I have…let’s see…four that I am neglecting at the moment.
    Long Way Home (nonfiction)
    Color of Water (nonfiction)
    The Negro in the Building of American (nonfiction)
    Race Matters (nonfiction)
    Thunderstruck (fiction)
    not to mention the one I physically have but haven’t started.
    I need more fiction, maybe. : p

    Anyway, getting books in the mail is one of the most fun things. getting mail is fun, and getting books is fun. It’s like double fun.

    Yeah, I think that might be it. It’s just really hard to have it always reminding me. I never properly grieved though, I think. I was 17, I couldn’t quite process. And I had to try to grieve along with another cousin my age, and I have learned from many years of experience that she sucks to grieve with. It’s always about how much better she knew the deceased that you did, or how much sadder she is than you are. Anyway.

    thanks for the interview well wishes. :)

  130. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Crudely Wrott:

    I’m so so sorry you are going through this. I have experienced medical needs during a time of financial…dearth, and I have found that most hospitals have some form of assistance or debt reduction. One hospital even had a fully funded “faculty foundation” which gave me free access to all kind of tests and procedures and specialists. Ask. Ask the staff, ask the receptionist. They may have pamphlets right at the intake desk. You have all the sympathy I can give, and I am so touched by your words. I wish I could do more.

  131. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Another note, just to keep my comment streak going:
    Don’t feel bad about needing help.
    Most people can’t afford the medical care they need.

    *gentle hugs* if you want them.

  132. Crudely Wrott says

    Thank you so much, Portia, who will be okay.

    I think that in the end I will also be okay.

    It’s just that the whole prospect frightens me. It looks silly to see my thoughts in words on my monitor but it is the plain truth. I have a fear that it will be worse than I thought once the docs get a look at me.

    I’ll be on the phone to the local hospital tomorrow and will ask them directly what assistance is available to me.

    In the meantime, your gentle hugs are gratefully received. I think I’ll get better but it seems as though I’m stepping off a cliff.

  133. Portia, who will be okay. says

    You will certainly be okay. I can relate to the scary feeling, not knowing what’s going to happen. I felt that way when I was ambulanced to the hospital on the first day of law school, without insurance, and when even though it was free, I was hooked up to heart monitor after heart monitor. I feel you on the fear.

    Take some care with your questions, because a hospital has to give emergency care but not regular care. (I think). Also check the website, there may be information there, or a preliminary application. Either way, though, you need to be seen by a doctor. Both the money and the diagnosis possibilities have to feel overwhelming right now but you will come out the other side, one way or another. There are ways to overcome debt but I don’t know if you want to go there yet, I don’t want you to get ahead of yourself if it will be further overwhelming.

    As you go through this, make sure to engage in self care as much as possible. That includes guiltlessly laying out your feelings and needs here.

  134. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Your thoughts are not silly. They are normal reactions to a scary situation. A non-trivial situation.

    And it’s my pleasure to be what little help I can.

  135. Crudely Wrott says


    Both the money and the diagnosis possibilities have to feel overwhelming right now but you will come out the other side, one way or another. There are ways to overcome debt but I don’t know if you want to go there yet, I don’t want you to get ahead of yourself if it will be further overwhelming.

    That is a perspective that I hadn’t yet seen. Now that you bring it up I think I see not only its practicality but can see it in the sense of medical ethics.

    You have made me feel a bit better already. Thank you, dear.

    I just want to stop waking up in the morning feeling like I’ve been beaten with baseball bats all night long. I want to be able to bend down to a child without feeling like a spear has been thrust into my back. I want to get rid of the Rice Crispies in my neck. I want to be able to move and get back to work like I did for nine years on my last job, going into homes like yours and fixing things that needed fixing. I’m very versitile; “from crawl space to roof top” was my motto. Right now, I can’t even load up my tools.
    [end whine]

  136. Socio-gen, something something... says

    I’ve heard Up the Walls of the World is quite good. I keep meaning to check it out. *makes note on library list*


    I wish I could help you in some real way. I have been there. If you can do it before you’re admitted, call the hospital and ask to speak with a hospital social worker. They are often aware of programs and services that can help you with the hospital bills. If not, you can ask as part of the admissions process.

    I had two major hospitalizations covered by Hill-Burton. I had to ask about it during admissions, and there’s an application process (income verification, etc.), but it covered almost everything, except some odd blood work and the TV.

    I just got Race Matters last week! I can’t wait to read it. (No clue when that will be…) In fall 2011, Cornel West spoke here at MSUM and it was incredible. Powerful and inspiring. I managed, by being small and wily, to get near the doors as he left and shook his hand.

    New books which I stare at longingly and hope for a free moment to read:

    Race Matters – Cornel West
    When Work Disappears – William Julius Wilson
    Playing with Fire: Feminist Thought and Activism Through Seven Lives in India – Sangtin Writers and Richa Nagar
    Fiction — romance (don’t judge; they keep my brain from overheating):
    Julia Quinn’s Bridgerton series (historical)
    Kresley Cole’s Lothaire and Shadow’s Claim (paranormal)
    Class reading I’ve enjoyed:
    Audre Lorde, Simone de Beauvoir, and Patricia Hill Collins. I’m also reading Elizabeth Pisani’s Wisdom of Whores: Bureaucrats, Brothels, and the Business of AIDS, and it’s quite interesting thus far.

  137. John Morales says

    Crudely Wrott, even at worst, the phrase “those who can’t do, teach” is not necessarily deprecatory.

    (You yet have much to offer)

  138. Crudely Wrott says

    John, while I’ve taken issue with some things that you have said before, your words are welcome and encouraging.

    Thank you. Thank you very much. May you fare well.

  139. cicely says

    Being able to chew properly is such an immense pleasure!

    Ogvorbis, don’t forget—that monstrously huge pile of dog shit in the form of a man was trying to set you in his image. How does that Biblical saying go? “Train up a child in the way he should go….” He was training you up in the way he thought you should go. As you told us, his job was to “make you a man rather than a girl”—to his definition of manhood.

    ednaz: Congrats on your great morning.

    Hi, moblues; welcome in!

    carlie: I hope you recover soon.

    Tony: Glad you’re feeling less despondent. I hope it’s the start of a trend.

    Dalillama: I’m so sorry. *hugs*

    I’m guessing that these people were iffy on the whole “How is babby formed?” thing.
    And they’re here in Springfield???

    Ah, Springfield! I have several friends who went to SBU nearby in Bolivar.

    Me, too.
    More ‘acquaintances’, really. But still. It’s just down the road ‘n’ all….

    Rossignol: I don’t remember you, so here’s a Welcome In! for you.

    Portia: Best of luck for your interview, and remember, you are Awesome!

    *manymanymanyhugs* for Crudely Wrott. Damn I wish I could help! But I have no relevant knowledge, (I think ImaginesABeach might be one of your best bets; she’s been very helpful with useful advice for my Nephew-in-Law’s situation; I can’t (re)commend her highly enough!), and we just spent all our cash on fixing my tooth (apart from what we’ll need for the doctor’s visit next week), and North Carolina is so very far away….
    :( :( :( :( :(
    Later: What Portia says is true; I found my hospital most understanding, in the aftermath of my MRSA surgery. Greatly-reduced final bill, and we’ve been paying it out. Doesn’t hurt to ask. And I remember that feeling of panic all too well. The Horde was a huge source of comfort to me, then, and as I think about it, I believe IAB gave me a great deal of useful and usable advice then, too!

    Posted hastily, without proper editing. ‘Night, all.

  140. Crudely Wrott says

    . . . and, gee, folks. You can just call me Crudely. I mean, how long have we been knowing each other? Wrott is just a surname, much like my RL surname. No one calls me [blank] surname in RL unless they’re some kind of official with a stripe down their pant leg. If you want to it’s OK but it’s not necessary.

    [grins and thinks about how good it is to have people know my name]

  141. Socio-gen, something something... says

    I’m headed to bed. Tomorrow will start way too early with an 8am meeting. I’ll try and check back over the next few weeks, but… we’ll see how it goes.

    Ugh! And I just realized that I wrote I’d be “delurking” tomorrow due to workload when I should have written relurking. I’m trying not to think that this bodes ill for all the writing I have to do….

    Good night all.

  142. Rossignol says

    Mellow Monkey – Mojitos are indeed a staple around these parts, particularly in the summer when the mint is taking over the garden and needs to be destroyed.

    Dalillama, Schmott Guy – Yeah, I guess that’s true. I don’t think it’s too unusual to play a little fast and loose with recipes for alcoholic beverages, though. Every drinker I know has a very particular way to make their favorite drink, often in a way that doesn’t show up in The Officially Sanctioned Recipe. A splash of triple-sec in a manhattan, a dash of bitters in a martini, that sort of thing.

    Crudely Wrott – For what little it’s worth, I’m sorry you are in pain, and I hope you find the help you’re looking for. I understand how difficult it can be to ask for and to receive help. My SO is particularly fierce about his independence, and I’ve seen what it does to him to have to rely on others financially.

    Thanks to all those who’ve offered welcome!

  143. Portia, who will be okay. says

    Many thanks. You make me smile.

    Likewise, my post-nym is not necessary in addressing me : )
    I’m so glad I’ve helped.
    Hospitals get nothing if you file bankruptcy.
    Hospitals get something if they settle for a pittance.
    Remember that : )

    That’s a great book list. I would love to see Cornel West in person.

    I’m turning in myself, now. Good night all.

  144. says

    Thank you for the kind words. At the moment, an ear, a shoulder and emotional support are all I am capable of, but please make use of each as you desire. I hope you are able to receive the assistance you deserve.
    Good luck with the interview.

    Yeah, it is five different brands of fucked up to expel someone for not spilling secrets, most especially in this case where no one was harmed.

  145. Crudely Wrott says

    Tony, your ear and your shoulder and you support are worth more than you might think. It makes the difference between feeling alone and being part of a larger whole that gives good love and advice and encouragement.

    May it come right back at you.

  146. says


    Sorry you’ve hit such a rough patch. A little aid of the financial sort will be on the way to you in a couple of days, and in the meanwhile you’re not too too far from a couple of major university medical centers, where you might be able to work out a deal for medical care in exchange for letting the students poke at you?

  147. Crudely Wrott says

    Joe, how is it possible for you to send such aid to me without my having revealed the necessary information? Unless you are prescient or know something I don’t know. Que?

    Thanks, though, for being a concerned member of the Loving Horde. Even if you can only give non-monetary support or useful advice, your attention is deeply appreciated. Really.

  148. ck says


    I hope I’m not out of line on this, but I sincerely hope your getting professional help with these memories. I’ve been reading the horrors your remembering and dreaming, and I’m getting more and more concerned. I don’t know much about the circumstances behind exactly what happened to you, but I do know that memory is very pliable, and I don’t believe you should assume that your dreams are necessarily what happened. Your “guilt” in the matter (if you want to call it that) may not include outright participation, but just the fact you encouraged someone to join the scouts and indirectly exposed that person to the predator you describe. The pain being caused by these memories is very real, regardless of if they’re true memories, or merely figments of a subconscious trying to come to terms with a recently re-remembered trauma.

    However, regardless of if they’re true memories or not, you were a child, and not at fault. One of the ways abusers ensure silence of the abused is to make them participate in the abuse of others, so they can’t expose the abuser without implicating themselves. It’s just another level of the abuse, to make you take the blame for their crimes.

  149. Crudely Wrott says

    And as for medical students poking at me; I’d be grateful for any poking that would make me pain free again or, failing that, at least reducing the pain below my threshold. I’ve lived and worked with pain often and for prolonged periods in the past. It comes with the territory when one is a glorified laborer.

    No matter how sophisticated the tools, one has to pick them up and wield them. My favorite is the sawzall. My most useful is the table saw. Anyway, bring on the pre-meds; they gotta learn somewhere, right? How ’bout right here? C’mon, kids, poke away!

  150. says

    Though it goes against the grain, please do not feel humiliated and embarrassed to ask for help. We all need assistance from time to time, and there is nothing wrong, whatsoever, in asking for it.
    I do wish that socially, we can move away from this notion that we should grin and bare it…or avoid asking for help. Yeah, I have been there too. Yeah, I have felt humiliated. Yet why is that? No one is making me feel that way. I impose those feelings on myself. Why? Do I feel that because it is my life, that somehow I am supposed to be in control at all times? Is it because I view independence as never needing any assistance? I do not know the answer, but too often I and many others, put off asking for help, when such could be hugely beneficial. Moreover, such offers, from some quarters, are so appreciated, that they are reciprocated.

    What a wonderful world this would be if help was not only a phone call away, but said help benefitted those in need and for them, in return, to offer assistance to others…?
    To give of yourself because someone else is in need is truly caring and compassionate.
    To accept assistance when necessary is a humble reminder that
    though we are human…
    though we are flawed…
    We are never alone.

  151. Crudely Wrott says

    @Joe, #707–
    Actually, I went all the way through getting a PayPal account last year, right up to the last step. Lacking a secure wi-fi connection I decided not to do financial business over the InnerTubes. Are you suggesting that I should? If so, I think I might try to complete the process in that I am really in extremis and would welcome any help that anyone would be willing to give.

    Oh my lands and stars*, so many things to think about, so many decisions. Life used to be so simple. Get up, go to work, do work well, collect check, take weekends with camera and find new vistas. Spend evenings with friends or in solitude as desired.

    Lately it has become frighteningly simple.

    *thank you, Lila Johnson.

  152. John Morales says

    ck, I too have considered the possibility that Ogvorbis may be confabulating, but I totally agree that if so, it’s an artefact of the grooming and abuse to which he was subjected.

    Ogvorbis, good children such as you were are prone to being helpful, and if you were manipulated into being helpful to some horrid end, any blame accruing is not yours to repent.

    You want to atone anyway, then being a good influence to any children you encounter is a perfect way to achieve that.


  153. says


    A little ‘rupt here, but I’m irritated. I feel like someone went through my boxes and stole random things during my move here… not literally, but there are SO MANY THINGS MISSING! My favorite, most expensive cologne. A Firefly T-shirt I really liked. My beard trimmer. A tiny little guitar speaker thingy for practicing when my wife’s in bed early(like tonight!). My potato peeler. Really, like one box of things, but things that were spread around the house and should have wound up together in boxes with the things they were next to in the house in the first place. Like, everything from my desk EXCEPT the speaker made it here. Every bottle of cologne made it EXCEPT the one I liked the best. All of my kitchen gadgets made it EXCEPT the potato peeler.

  154. ck says

    Yeah, I have felt humiliated. Yet why is that?

    Part would be bloody gender essentialism. Men are expected to be completely independent and unneeding of outside help, otherwise you’re a failure as a “Real Man”. If you’re American, another part would be that, since “Rugged Individualism” is held as the pinnacle of human ideals for some idiotic reason.

    It’s frustrating, but you can never completely escape the ridiculous, unfair assumptions of the culture you were brought up in. This stuff gets internalized and it takes (sometimes continuous) conscious effort to fight it.

  155. John Morales says

    Improbable Joe,

    I feel like someone went through my boxes and stole random things during my move here… not literally, but there are SO MANY THINGS MISSING!

    You may well be right as to the cause, but there is nothing you can do about it now.

    (I think the rational course is to be stoical about it, irritating as it may be)

  156. glodson says

    Crudely Wrott: I wish I had the ability to help. I feel bad that I can only offer words of support.

    Goddamnit, it has just been one of those days. Which might explain why I’m slightly drunk right now.

    Which means the papist apologist chew toy I found I will have to wait until tomorrow when I’m up to chewing.

  157. thunk, new years, new dreams says

    Ouch, crudely, i’m very sorry for your situation of your body hurting so much. I need to find some way to pitch in, as I have wanted to help many here.

    And I don’t believe in surnames, so using them as part of nyms I am not familiar with.

  158. Rossignol says

    Tony – Truly, I am the world’s greatest monster. At least the manhattans I so heinously adulterate are made with a rye whiskey, as is right and proper.

  159. Crudely Wrott says

    WMDKitty. Thank you so much. You don’t know how long it’s been between the last bong hit and this one that you provide. FFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffffffffttttttt. . . . . . . up ….. . .. .. pup . . …………. tup………………… . phweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwweeh. Ahhhhhhhh, niiiiiiiice.

    Glodson. Kind words sometimes are better than platitudes. Thank you.

    Thank you both for being aware and thoughtful. I am encouraged through your concerns. Just one of the reasons why I love this place and the evil denizens who populate it. Clenched tentacle salute!

    Hekuni Cat. I’ll try to keep you posted. Actually, it might be interesting if not informative. Hoo boy, how I dread it though. It’s Tuesday. Only three days left. I have to submit within 72 hours. Shit. No InnerTubes. No beer. No tobacco. Well, there is the notion that there could be no pain . . .

  160. ck says

    John Morales wrote:

    ck, I too have considered the possibility that Ogvorbis may be confabulating, but I totally agree that if so, it’s an artefact of the grooming and abuse to which he was subjected.

    I worry about the self-loathing, which is why I brought it up. The fact he feels responsible says nothing but good things about him, but that level of guilt can be quite dangerous. I have no doubt that he suffered the trauma of child rape, but I also remember the Satanic ritual abuse thing of the 1980s, which produced extremely vivid false memories for the victims (and immeasurable lasting harm to them), often based on dreams that were taken verbatim as being long forgotten memories. I’m not saying that these dreams have to be fake, because these kinds of things have certainly happened, but simply that accepting them as long forgotten memories may cause far more harm.

    I worry, as I wrote both these posts, that I may be minimizing the horror of the terrible things done to him. It is not my intent. However, I do not want to see more tragedy result from this, especially to someone who is obviously as compassionate as Ogvorbis.

  161. Crudely Wrott says

    Sleep beckons. Irresistibly. I’ll be back in the morning.

    The Horde is like a warm blanket one can wrap ones self in after coming in out of the cold rain.

    How cool warm is that?

    G’ night and thanks and love to you all.

  162. says


    Part would be bloody gender essentialism. Men are expected to be completely independent and unneeding of outside help, otherwise you’re a failure as a “Real Man”. If you’re American, another part would be that, since “Rugged Individualism” is held as the pinnacle of human ideals for some idiotic reason.

    yeah, that’s a kick in the teeth. I know that that’s where the feelings of shame, inadequacy, etc are coming form, I know it’s bullshit, but nevertheless…

  163. Have a Balloon says


    What you’re dealing with right now sounds frightening. I wanted to pitch in as well and reassure you that it was not your fault. We talk about rape and sexual assault a lot but it’s rarely mentioned that being forced to penetrate or otherwise assault someone is also sexual assault. Whatever you did to other people, it was not you committing a crime, it was another crime being committed against you.

    Don’t ever feel you were a coward. You did what you could to keep yourself safe in the best way you knew how. You were the only person who knew what to do to protect yourself, and any decisions you made were the right decisions for you and your safety and wellbeing.

    I have a suggestion, that you might not want to take advantage of if it’s triggering, or you might have already done this. Find a photograph of yourself when you were at the age that the abuse happened. If you’re not comfortable doing that, see if you can find a photograph of another child at that age. As has been said above, it’s common to project our adult mentality and judgement onto ourselves as children, and we forget how helpless and vulnerable we really were. Looking at a picture might help to remind you of just how little control you had; how trusting you were; how young you were. You did not have a choice. You had an illusion of choice, that was not free.

  164. rq says

    Good mornings!

    Crudely – *hugs* for your situation, and I hope you find a way for diagnosis and treatment! If I can be of help in any way, just say the word. :)

    WMDKitty, the Special Letters Unit said they’ve had a problem with too many ms recently.
    And now you (and iJoe) have me worried about the Moving Gremlins. So far everything seems to be in order (although I couldn’t find the box with all my clean pants for a while). Is there any way to appease them?

    *hugs* for Ogvorbis!

  165. rq says

    (WMDKitty re: Letter M – that is. they found the original, and now all sorts have been turning up.)

  166. opposablethumbs says

    Dalillama, I’m so sorry. Your ex employers really are a bunch of unmitigated douchebags..
    Crudely Wrott, shit that’s awful. I really hope you get the help you need. All I’ve got is more hugs … please, have some (they’re intercontinental transatlantic e-hugs, so they won’t hurt your back). Please would you consider getting some rl contact details to any member of the Horde you feel OK with having in touch with you in rl? So that contact can be maintained in case you can’t get online for any reason?
    Ogvorbis, yes, what was just said upthread about guilt. He deliberately wanted to implicate you as just one more piece of his power trip, to abuse you more and make you more helpless to go against him. It might be possible that you are unconsciously adding elements in order to punish yourself? And he tried to make you be like him, and he fucking failed.

  167. says

    Good morning

    Oh shit, I’m sorry

    I’m sorry that you’re in pain and hope you can get help soon.
    As soon as we’ve figured out how to get you something via paypal I’m sending a little.
    I’m also sorry to hear that the idea that you need help pains you, too.
    I live in a country with socialized healthcare and here people think that yes, everybody is entitled to healthcare and it is generally seen as a scandal that we’re not doing more for sick people.
    You worked your ass off for 40+ years (I guess). I know, capitalist ideology thinks that you got money for your work and that’s it, so when the work and the money are gone you’re on your own again. But that’s not true. You built your country during those years, you supported society and it’s only fair that now society does something for you.

  168. rq says

    Oh shit and in reading through I made a note about Dalillama and then forgot. :( I’m sorry, Dalillama, for your situation, and also that I absent-mindedly missed sending you good wishes – I’m sorry you got fired, that’s a really crappy (understatement) thing to happen, and I’m sorry that all I can offer is sympathy and a whole bunch of virtual *hugs*! What opposablethumbs said about your employers. I second that, and also the hope that you can get a good reference from someone there!

  169. Beatrice says

    *hugs* and sympathy to everyone having troubles with employment, health, memories, relationships, finances or anything else

  170. says

    I registered my interest for the Dublin “Empowering Women” conference. The lady who wrote back said they would soon have a list of hotels to stay up on their website. I wrote back that I’ll stay at the Alexander Hotel because I hear the elevators are great. Haven’t heard back since.


  171. rq says

    I’d stay at a hotel with awesome elevators. :)

    Which reminds me – how many Lounges back did Minnie the Finn leave her email address re: Stockholm in August? I’m having the germinating idea of a plan for myself…

    Also, small piece of good news: the SEAC is back behind bars home. Lured him in with small pieces of bacon leading to an opendoor, behind which lay… heat. Poor thing’s a bit worse for the wear; he hasn’t been filching from the neighbouring cats, and, unfortunately, virtual bird-hunting skills learned behind the glass of windows remain virtual.
    He sure seems glad to be home (temperatures in the single-digit minuses today). :)

  172. Parrowing buıʍoɹɹɐd says

    ! rq:

    OMG that would be so cool if you were able to make it! It’s likely that Catrambi and I will be in Stockholm to visit then even if we can’t afford the conference. And I promise you, if you are there, you will get cheesecake. Is it okay for me to share Minnie the Finn’s e-mail address? I know she wrote it here, but I feel bad writing someone else’s info, so I’ll look for where she wrote it herself… Comment #427 on Lounge #401.

    Also, yay for the kitty coming back in!


    Hugs to all who need them, including but not limited to Ogvorbis, broboxley, Dalillama, and Crudely


    Okay, now who’s been bogarting the joint? Please pass it this way…

  173. Beatrice says


    Well, there was that thing that happened in an elevator in Dublin, that triggered the forming of DEEP RIFTS.

  174. rq says


    That’s the sound of my brain being OFF. :P
    Can’t believe I walked right into that one.

  175. rq says

    Oh and thanks, Parrowing! :) (Though, once again and rather unfairly, you’re using cheesecake as a weapon.)

  176. mildlymagnificent says

    OK – this might be a bit TRIGGERy for anyone who’s been part of a someone-almost-died experience, but it’s important.

    If you haven’t learned how to do CPR, do it pronto. If you did learn, but it was a while ago – do a refresher, pronto.

    Mrmagnificent is not so magnificent just now. He collapsed a couple of nights ago. Three ambulances arrived within 10 minutes but I had to keep him – barely – alive until they got here. (I might add that doing CPR when you cannot kneel and have to bend from the waist/hips is pretty demanding, but you have to do what you have to do. The emergency operator was excellent at getting me to keep the right speed and checking his “breathing”.) I hadn’t done any more than one simple training course years ago – I didn’t have to be certified and regularly requalify for my job the way he needs to for teaching – but it was enough for me to know what, where, how it had to be done. (Having a nurse daughter and medical friends means that we’ve had lots of relevant, if not really dinner table suitable, conversations updating my inexpert knowledge.) Even then it took a few jolts from the magic machine and a few shots of adrenaline by the resuscitation expert, and half a dozen rotations of vigorous CPR real experts, to get an actual pulse and readable blood pressure.

    Unsurprisingly he’s still in intensive care. Hadn’t woken up by the time I left today – they’d had him sedated and paralysed while they kept his body temperature way, way down. That’s the standard procedure nowadays when they don’t know how long/ how bad the brain had to cope with anoxic conditions. Of course he’s also got a raging lung infection from the usual consequences of CPR – inhaled stomach contents. We won’t know about neurological sequelae until he’s awake – he’s breathing on his own but with a supply of oxygen enriched air because the lungs aren’t doing a wonderful job just yet.

    The most irritating thing about it is that – there’s nothing wrong with his heart, there’s nothing wrong with his circulation, there’s nothing wrong with any arteries or veins, there’s no cholesterol problem. The current theory is that it’s arrhythmia. He’s had a few very minor incidents which have all been followed up with specialist consultations and imaging. Only last week he wore one of those 24 hour Holter monitors – and the readings from that? Perfectly “normal”. So when this is ‘solved’ we’ll probably be looking at surgery for a defibrillator, (not a pacemaker).

    But we wouldn’t be looking at any of this without prompt CPR and fast, expert, ambulance response. Most surprising of all to me – the ones who hadn’t gone in the ambulance with him ….. came back and tidied up all the stuff they’d thrown all over the place while they were doing their thing. I’ve found just one single solitary strip of plasticky backing stuff that had made it right into the kitchen.