An insult to jellyfish everywhere »« Mike Adams one-ups everyone

Comments

  1. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    Esteleth – I love Stash Chai, but it’s pretty powerful. At stores around here they go for about $2.50 a box, but it’s strong enough that I only steep for about 1 minute or so and then can reuse the bag a couple of times. (I drink it straight; never been able to handle milk in my tea.) Also seconding the double bergamot Earl Grey.

  2. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    It has a laser on its head and you still think it’s a dog???

    I had that installed. It’s not factory equipment.

  3. thunk, martian atmosphere weaksauce says

    I’m watching that video and thinking, “Where in the world am I looking at?”

    So far, I have managed to come up with BC, Japan, and the Great Lakes.

  4. says

    *sigh*

    SO an animal hospital worker got mauled by a pit bull and lost her arm. The pit nutter brigade is out in full force to say how it was really her fault for opening the pen or blah blah blah, as if any other breed of dog regularly amputates limbs and scalps people.

    http://blog.dogsbite.org/2012/07/bay-county-animal-hospital-worker.html

    sooo sick of this shit. roughly every 3 weeks someone dies and a bunch of people get disabled or disfigured in the mean time. Meanwhile pit bulls get another TV show to advertise how great they are as pets.

  5. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    I just paid $1708.56 for a piece of 8.5×11″ paper. Comes with a free computer, in 3-5 days, delivered to my workplace.

  6. Patricia, OM says

    Rev. BigDumbChimp – My old boss at the veterinary hospital had one of her Flat Coated Retrievers eat an entire queen sized fitted bed sheet. It took seven hours of surgery to remove it. Amazingly the dog survived!

  7. Tethys says

    So far, I have managed to come up with BC, Japan, and the Great Lakes.

    Southeast North America and the Gulf of Mexico, Antarctica, Greenland, amazing aurora borealis, and Asia to Europe tracking over the Mediterranean. Straits of Gibraltar at the very end.

  8. thunk, cоюз and skycrane says

    Tethys:

    You’re obviously much better at this.

    Need to brush up on geography.

  9. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    There is no stupid too stupid

    Speaking of illegitimate, the latest assault on the Obama family is a new movie purporting to show that the president’s father was not Barack Hussein Obama Sr., but an African-American radical and poet named Frank Marshall Davis. There is no more substance to this claim than that the president was actually born in Kenya and educated in an Islamist madrassa.

    Taken seriously, this “neo-birther” fable would tend to erode the original “birther” claims. But logic and proof have no impact on such speculations, whose aim is to profit from prejudice and extremism.

    Consider the source — in this instance, an individual named Cliff Kincaid, who runs an old extreme-right outfit called Accuracy in Media and, appropriately, venerates the likes of Richard Nixon and Joe McCarthy.

    The last big plot promoted by Kincaid was the “bipartisan” scheme to portray the “murder” of Clinton White House counsel Vince Foster as a suicide. Among the conspirators fingered by Kincaid in this alleged cover-up was the Republican independent counsel Kenneth Starr, best known for his dogged, intemperate, $50 million effort to remove President Clinton from office.

  10. says

    Hello, 1,000 Needles!

    Birger:

    Considering the age of the WBC cult leader. I doubt they will be around for much longer.

    Shirley Phelps-Roper is running the show now.

    Social networks under the sea

    Fishbook?

    Sili:

    Everything in moderation.

    Well, I didn’t peel the cloves and eat them like grapes. One of them went chopped-up and raw into a sandwich (why not, when people put raw onion on sandwiches?), and the rest was sautéed in olive oil and thrown into pasta.

    Also, what Matt said.

    Tony: No, carrots are disgusting. Not just the texture but the taste. Whereas pickles are AWESOME.

    Esteleth:

    Blasphemy! Black teas should always be taken with milk.

    HERETIC. Black tea is best with no dairy product and a few packets of Splenda.

    Pteryxx, quoting Salon:

    smiling Border Patrol agents destroying water-caches left in areas where migrants have died of exposure.

    Anybody else here read The Grapes of Wrath? Because now I’m thinking of fruit and creosote.

    Also, fuck you, Brad Hicks, for pulling out “no free will” to defend border agents who pull this shit. But at least Boing Boing moderates out comments like the first one on Salon, which I’m going to assume is representative:

    Let them die. If it’s so fucking dangerous to illegally enter this country and steal jobs and entitlements, then they can stay where the fuck they belong.

    Louis:

    I will stop immediately. Well, after this next batch of “special” stout is brewed for the local homoeopathic festival.

    Does it taste different if you brew the hops in a Doberman, versus, say, a Chihuahua?

    Skeptifem: Yeah, DogsBite.org is such a reliable source of information. I totes believe some woman who got mauled and now has it in for all pit bulls over people who, you know, actually work with the breed.

    BTW, I was visiting a friend about a month ago who has a truly adorable pit. I gave her extra skritchin’s for you.

  11. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Rev. BigDumbChimp – My old boss at the veterinary hospital had one of her Flat Coated Retrievers eat an entire queen sized fitted bed sheet. It took seven hours of surgery to remove it. Amazingly the dog survived!

    jesus

    Yeah the big dog is pretty good about sticking to certain groups of household flotsom. Books, magazine, newspapers, phone-books, and especially toilet paper. Small plastic things such as pill bottles are sometimes a target. So that’s dangerous.

    The occasional shoe and if there is some food left out while we aren’t there. Well that stands no chance.

    We’ve gotten pretty good at policing the whole house before we leave but sometimes we miss something. And it’s not every time. Usually happens if I come home after being gone for a while then quickly turn around and leave.

    he’s a rescue so there is some separation anxiety.

  12. Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff says

    I recommend heavy drinking.

    I do that a lot.

    I only do light drinking, but I am seriously considering it. Maybe not a good idea while I’m babysitting though.

    Alternatively, hugs and chocolate! I shall prepare the USB transporter immediately.

    ^_^ Thanks!

    Aw Cipher, my sympathies on your shitty day.

    *debates pointing out the terrible, terrible pun, decides against it* Thanks!

    Let’s hope the heat breaks soon. It is making everyone irritable.

    True. Although we actually appear to be in for a storm today! So that’ll be nice.

    he’s a rescue so there is some separation anxiety.

    :(

  13. Ogvorbis says

    Hi, all.

    Happy Saturday.

    I stayed in bed until 11:00am. We had French Toast for breakfast. I am currently slow cooking some baby back ribs out on the grill — slow so the meat will be fall-off-the-bones tender.

  14. Ogvorbis says

    Cipher:

    I hope your day gets better. Or, at least, gets no worse. CyberUSBhugs to you.

  15. Sili says

    Well, I didn’t peel the cloves and eat them like grapes. One of them went chopped-up and raw into a sandwich (why not, when people put raw onion on sandwiches?), and the rest was sautéed in olive oil and thrown into pasta.

    Ah. That’s not what it sounded like at first.

    Carry on, then.

  16. Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff says

    It just did get worse!
    Just now, I made my brother lunch. It was kinda late so I was feeling bad. Apparently, I was feeling bad enough to somehow, accidentally, fling half the food I just made off the plate directly into the trash.
    I have no idea. What the fuck is today.

  17. Ogvorbis says

    Well, I didn’t peel the cloves and eat them like grapes.

    Wait, you eat cloves? Whole cloves? Whole? Cloves? Doesn’t it turn your mouth numb? That’s, that’s, er, well, far be it from me to be judgmental, but cloves? Those black stick things?

  18. Ogvorbis says

    Cipher:

    I have had days like that. Days when it seems I have a sign on my car that says, “Please cut me off!” Days when it seems that everything that can go wrong, does. Days when it seems I have somebody else’s hands and the hands do not want to cooperate. You have my sympathy.

  19. Ogvorbis says

    Ogvorbis: The subsections of a head of garlic are commonly called “cloves.”

    Ah. That makes much more sense. I knew that but my brain did not make the connection.

  20. says

    Oh, garlic chopped up on a sandwich is delicious. I also like minced (raw) garlic left to soak in olive oil, then using it as a condiment.

  21. says

    Daisy:

    Black tea is best with no dairy product and a few packets of Splenda.

    Splenda is the work of the Devil.

    A little bit of honey for me, please.

    Rev:

    Yeah the big dog is pretty good about sticking to certain groups of household flotsom. Books, magazine, newspapers, phone-books, and especially toilet paper.

    Hee. My mom has given me several books (the latest being Buddhism for Mothers, blech) that have been half eaten by her (very small, 30 lb) monster dog.

  22. Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff says

    Oh no.
    :(
    Caine, I’m so sorry. That’s horrible. I hope that the ratlets will be okay.

  23. Walton says

    Pteryxx, last thread,

    John Carlos Frey investigates the deliberate cruelty of the US Border Patrol agents who work on the US-Mexican border. A humanitarian relief group called No More Deaths used hidden cameras to record smiling Border Patrol agents destroying water-caches left in areas where migrants have died of exposure. A former senior agent who left after witnessing horrific acts of torture and cruelty describes the way that Border Patrol agents delight in sadistic brutalizing of captured migrants. These accounts have been corroborated by the Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders.

    It’s awful. And it gets worse. Since 1994, when the federal government implemented “Operation Gatekeeper”, up to 5,000 undocumented migrants have died crossing the US-Mexico border. “Operation Gatekeeper” is a deliberate policy of concentrating border policing in populated areas, in order to force migrants into crossing at the most dangerous points in the desert where they are most likely to die on the journey. In other words, it’s a policy deliberately calculated to cause more migrant deaths, as a way of deterring undocumented migration. And the number of deaths is increasing. In 2008 alone, 390 people died crossing the border, 114 of them from heat exposure.

    Some of the worst parts of the report:

    Women and migrant children are among the most vulnerable, mistreated, and injured of the migrant groups. Migrants are not just immigrant workers; they are also family members, children, and the elderly…After apprehension, families are split apart and repatriated to different ports of entry at different times.. In clandestine trips across rugged territory, women and children who cannot keep up are often left behind.

    [...]

    Migrant women and children also find themselves at disadvantages when deported by U.S. authorities to the Mexican side of the border. Neither the United States nor Mexico dedicates resources to care for migrant women and youth who are repatriated and left daily in many Mexican border towns. In the first six months of 2008, ninety thousand children were deported by U.S. authorities…

    In a series on Mexico’s northern border, the newspaper La Jornada described the plight of approximately 200,000 migrants who find themselves in border cities in the State of Tamaulipas.
    Thirty percent are women who are forced to make payment to coyotes sexually. Some accept the role of “compañeras” for protection; others are assaulted, raped, forced into human trafficking, or killed. “According to the UN, up to 70 percent of women crossing the border without husbands or families are abused in some way.”

    [...]

    In 2008, the humanitarian aid organization No More Deaths’ report, “Crossing the Line: Human Rights Abuses of Migrants in Short-Term Custody on the Arizona/Sonora Desert,” details the findings of migrant experiences documented by medical professionals and trained volunteers in migrant aid centers at ports of entry along the Arizona/Sonora border.The report highlighted several areas of concern that aggravated health conditions of migrants: 1) the denial of food and water; 2) the denial of medical care and access to medical professionals; 3) overcrowding and uncomfortable temperatures in holding cells; 4) verbal and physical abuse aimed at discouraging further border crossings attempts; 5) transportation practices endangering the safety of transported migrants; 6) the separate repatriation to different ports of entries of family members, often women and children, and at times, the practice of leaving them on the Mexican side at late hours of the night.

    Three women, approximately age 20, sought treatment for injuries sustained while crossing. One had a lower back injury from falling after The report highlights the following cases:

    Physical & Verbal Abuse in Agua Prieta: A group of 15 migrants, including three women and two teenage boys, were detained by the Border Patrol while crossing the desert. The agents who detained them made them run for 30 minutes, telling them that this would discourage them from crossing again. If they stopped running, the agents would kick them to force them to run again.

    Physical Abuse & Failure to Provide Medical Care in Nogales:
    Three women, approximately age 20, sought treatment for injuries sustained fleeing “bandidos.” All reported that the agents who apprehended them had pushed them into cacti as they were walking in custody. None had received treatment for blisters, trauma, or cactus spines.

    Denial of Water in Agua Prieta: A group of nine was in detention from 6 pm to 8:30 am. The jail was very cold and they were not provided with food or water. Maria begged for water for her two children, ages 6 and 9, and the BP officers drank in front of them and refused to provide any water for her children or the others.”

    There are humanitarian organizations who leave water caches in the desert to help undocumented migrants survive the journey. In some cases, Border Patrol agents have destroyed the caches, and humanitarian workers have even been arrested for “littering”. When I was in Boston and involved in immigrants’ rights activism, I met people who had volunteered with humanitarian organizations working on the border in Arizona. It’s a very tough place.

    The organization No More Deaths (No Más Muertes) works to document the horrors on the US-Mexico border, and there’s a lot of information on their website.

    Immigration controls kill people. When conservatives rant about the need to “secure the border”, it’s worth reminding them that the price of doing so is paid in human lives.

  24. Walton says

    I’m really sorry to hear that, Caine. That’s awful. I don’t know what to say.

  25. Walton says

    More information: A Culture of Cruelty: Abuse and Impunity in Short-Term US Border Patrol Custody

    In 2006, in the midst of humanitarian work with people recently deported from the United States to Nogales, Sonora, No More Deaths began to document abuses endured by
    individuals in the custody of U.S. immigration authorities,
    and in particular the U.S. Border Patrol. In September 2008
    No More Deaths published Crossing the Line in collaboration
    with partners in Naco and Agua Prieta, Sonora. The report
    included hundreds of individual accounts of Border Patrol
    abuse, as well as recommendations for clear, enforceable
    custody standards with community oversight to ensure
    compliance. Almost three years later, A Culture of Cruelty
    is a follow-up to that report—now with 12 times as many
    interviews detailing more than 30,000 incidents of abuse
    and mistreatment, newly obtained information on the
    Border Patrol’s existing custody standards, and more specific
    recommendations to stop the abuse of individuals in Border
    Patrol custody.

    The abuses individuals report have remained alarmingly
    consistent for years, from interviewer to interviewer and across
    interview sites: individuals suffering severe dehydration are
    deprived of water; people with life-threatening medical conditions are denied treatment; children and adults are beaten
    during apprehensions and in custody; family members are separated, their belongings confiscated and not returned; many
    are crammed into cells and subjected to extreme temperatures,
    deprived of sleep, and threatened with death by Border Patrol
    agents. By this point, the overwhelming weight of the corroborated evidence should eliminate any doubt that Border
    Patrol abuse is widespread. Still the Border Patrol’s consistent
    response has been flat denial, and calls for reform have been
    ignored.

    And don’t forget Anastasio Hernandez Rojas, who was beaten and tasered to death by Border Patrol agents while tied down on the pavement.

  26. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Oh fuck that sucks Caine! I’m so sorry. =(

    *hugs* if you want them. I hope the ratlets are okay.

  27. Patricia, OM says

    Rev – My English Bulldog is a rescue dog too. If I don’t put him in his crate every time I leave, he will chew the back of the heel out of every shoe he can find. That seems like a weird ass choice when he could tip over the yummy compost pail.

  28. Richard Austin says

    Caine:

    :(

    I hope the esbilac helps, though I can’t imagine trying to hand-nurse ratlets.

  29. says

    daisy

    Skeptifem: Yeah, DogsBite.org is such a reliable source of information. I totes believe some woman who got mauled and now has it in for all pit bulls over people who, you know, actually work with the breed.

    She got bit by a dog and started doing advocacy for people who get bit by dogs. Why is that a problem?

    The link you gave me doesn’t do much besides repeat what you did (“she has it out for all pits!!!11″), as well as other logically fallacious arguments (the one from popularity is my fav). You could try looking at the studies that dogsbite links to and refuting that information. There was a recent study from the journal of injury prevention, for instance, which highlights the public safety problem associated with gripping dogs. Dogsbite.org posted that information. How does colleen being a victim of a dog attack change the information in the study?

    Your point about people who work with the breed is a bunch of shit- there are mixed opinions from people who have worked with pit bulls, and its based on their personal observations rather than study. People change their minds (in either direction) based on what they notice about dogs all the fucking time. Why should I give a shit?

    Do you even know why we know who colleen lynn is? Its because a bunch of pit bull advocates decided to out her and try to intimidate her into stopping her advocacy. She deals with threats, accusations of mental illness, and other shit ALL the time.

  30. says

    Skeptifem, did you miss this part from Brent Toellner’s post?

    Every mainstream national organization that is involved in canine/human interactions is opposed to laws targeting specific breeds of dogs. An at-least partial list of these organizations include: [snip]

    I’d say that if the list includes the ASPCA, AVMA, and CDC, I tend to give it credence. More credence than I’d give an “advocate” without any apparent background in dog training.

    It sucks that Colleen Lynn is getting harassed. She shouldn’t be. However, pit bull owners get threats and verbal abuse all the time as well: “I’m going to kill your dog,” “You ought to be in prison,” etc. And note in Toellner’s comment thread that a woman named Carianne reports less-than-ethical behavior from Lynn. I personally don’t see any reason to disbelieve her.

    If pit bulls are the horrors that Lynn makes them out to be, why are they used as service dogs?

    My friend with the pit bull writes,

    Because of bullshit from people like Colleen Lynn, a disabled seven-year-old girl’s service dog with no bite history was seized from her home & subjected to two terrifying years being held in squalor before being killed.

    I’ve asked her for a link.

  31. says

    Markita Lynda, you had mentioned “children of alcoholics.” Regarding such groups, I am mostly familiar with the oxymoronically named Adult Children of Alcoholics, which is 12-step. I apologize for my confusion there.

  32. Sili says

    Some pitbulls are dangerous and harm people.

    Some schäfers are dangerous and harm people.

    Some labradors are dangerous and harm people.

    Some poodles are dangerous and harm people.

    Some dachshunds are dangerous and harm people.

    In short, some dogs are dangerous and harm people.

  33. Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff says

    Well, some of the difference is that dachshunds are probably not going to be able to take your arm off if they decide to harm you.
    Which is good, because doxies can be grumpy little assholes sometimes. Same with cocker spaniels.

  34. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    First, thanks to Therrin & Dalillama.

    The move to BC has been consuming all my time & energy, especially over the last 10 days. Therrin helped a bunch and then offered to help more and I didn’t even get back to him. Sad about that, but I was just so frenetic that I didn’t know when I would be needing help & when I would be out of the house taking care of other things. It was pretty terrible for a while.

    But I still wanna know – did you get the job you were after?

    Whether yes or no, I’d be happy to see you when in Oregon again.

    Thanks Dalillama for doing your small part to declutter the house.

    I am in BC, but my dog ate rat poison when moving furniture revealed some of an old, uneaten poison block. It played complete havoc with my last few days in Oregon, and caused certain things to be left undone. This means that my baby was too sick to travel even though I had a UHaul reserved and pre-paid. So she’s staying with a good friend, and even if I didn’t have things left undone b/c of the time spent in the hospital and otherwise caring for her, I would still have to come back to collect her. So I’ll be back in a couple of days & the general distraction & busy-ness will continue for a few days.

    But I’ll be back on P and in TET fairly soon: the end is finally in sight.

    Then, of course, I have only a month before law school starts. But I’m smart. I’m sure I won’t have to do the readings. That will leave plenty of time to play on TET while the kids play around me & feed themselves.

    Best to everyone – totally threadrupt, but I’ll catch up eventually.

  35. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I really wasn’t going to read b/c, crap, there’s so much to do, but I was scrolling back up & saw sympathies to Caine.

    Esme died?

    the 19 gods of despair, that’s awful. I wonder if her grief had anything to do with it. Best to you and fam.

  36. says

    Ah, here we go: A service dog in Belfast, Ireland that was put to sleep because it resembles a pit bull, but is not actually a pit bull. Which is a problem with breed-specific legislation.

    On another note…Patricia, Chris Hedges is excellent when talking about class warfare, but unfortunately you have to ignore his overweening preachy liberal xtianity, which infects his work. Here’s an example from the Alternet interview with Bill Moyers, with bold my emphasis:

    I mean, American values were effectively destroyed by Madison Avenue when, after world war one, it began to instill consumption as a kind of inner compulsion. But old values of thrift, of self-effacement, or hard work were replaced with this cult of the “self”, this hedonism.

    I really doubt that the U.S. has ever had a self-effacing culture since white people first colonized these shores, and the crap about the “cult of the ‘self'” and “hedonism” is right out of the “family values” playbook.

    Then there’s this:

    CHRIS HEDGES: …And faith is a belief that it does make a difference, even if all of the empirical signs around you point otherwise. I think that fundamentally is what faith is about. And I’m not a very good Christian anymore. But I retain enough of my Christian heritage and my seminary training to still believe that.

    BILL MOYERS: What are you?

    CHRIS HEDGES: A, you know, a sinner.

    BILL MOYERS: Welcome to the clan.

    CHRIS HEDGES: You know, a doubter.

    So, to doubt is to sin.

  37. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Fucking anger.

    All of those people who think they are being persecuted by the media and the NCAA, who plan of continuing shouting WE ARE PENN STATE should be honest and chant this.

    WE ARE CHILD RAPE

    Sorry about that. Those asshats cannot seem to understand just how bad that Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky are. And that Paterno did not just cover up. Sandusky had keys to the facilities and Paterno knew what Sandusky was doing. He allowed this to happen.

  38. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    Re: dogs, I am not an expert. I do, however, remember that case – well-publicized – of the French woman who had a face transplant following a dog attack. The dog? A miniature poodle.

    Size of the dog is not necessarily correlated with danger. A mistreated, vicious shar-pei is much more dangerous than a well-trained, even-tempered pit bull.

  39. Louis says

    Janine,

    Anger seconded.

    I have no idea why anyone…

    …oh wait…I just figured it out. Excuse me, I have to go vomit.

    Louis

  40. says

    Esteleth:

    Size of the dog is not necessarily correlated with danger. A mistreated, vicious shar-pei is much more dangerous than a well-trained, even-tempered pit bull.

    Yep.

    I’m all for putting down dogs that are aggressive and cannot be rehabbed, regardless of the breed. Forcefully prosecuting irresponsible breeders would be a good way to have fewer such dogs around (and of course would mitigate a lot of animal misery in general).

    Janine: Seconded. Goddamn, that shit angers me so hard. I normally don’t link here to my own blogposts but I raged about that yesterday.

  41. says

    Crip Dyke
    Ouch, I’m sorry about your dog, I hope she gets better soon.

    In short, some dogs are dangerous and harm people.

    While that’s true, it’s also true that some dogs will cause more damage than others. Imagine a Yorkshire terrier savagely attacking you. Yeah, scary.
    It would be stupid to deny that decades of selective breeding shaped the looks and behaviours of those breeds. Your Australian shepherd is going to herd something, so you better make sure it has lots of activity or it will herd bikers. Your golden retriever is going to retrieve things. Your pointer will point.
    That’s why certain dogs require a special kind of dedicated and responsible owner. Sadly, those big dogs with lots of biting power also attract the wrong kind of people. Yes, if pitbulls disappeared they’d go for different breeds, that’s why it’s not a solution to a serious problem.
    And you never know what a dog’s triggers are, especially if they’re rescues, that’s why I’m totally not surprised about stories where the nicest and sweetest dog suddenly went berserk. I knew the nicest and sweetest dog once. He was my neighbour’s boxer and he was a great dog. He was “my” dog. I took that dog for walks, I felt so safe with that dog, I was pretty sure that this dog would eat up anybody who threatened me. I would never have left that dog alone with a child because that dog was once tortured by children and hated them.
    Having said that, I have no problem with mandated spaying/neutering, especially since unneutered males seem to be the most agressive and disproportionately involved in serious attacks.

  42. Louis says

    Crip Dyke,

    My sincere commiserations regarding your dog. Good to have you back with us though!

    Louis

  43. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Back from camping and partially threadrupt.

    We found three shed deer antlers laying around the hills in random places, and for some reason they were all lefthand examples. I wonder why this would be?

    The weather was terrible, we got hit by a thunderstorm shortly after arriving, but this was good news for at least one member of our party: I released my pet rubber boa back into the wild and they always prefer to be active in cooler weather. I shall miss her, but it was the right thing to do.

    The second day I went for a morning walk, and a bit down the road I heard a thump and saw something moving between some trees. I got a bit closer and my thoughts ran exactly like this:

    “Is that a deer? No… too shaggy. Looks like a carnivoran. Coyote? No.. too big and shaggy. Wolf? Someone’s dog maybe…

    OH SHIT!”

    It was a bear about 20 feet away from me. I wish I could say I was brave enough to study it, but I wasn’t. I turned tail and walked, didn’t run, back down the road, looking over my shoulder the whole time, and just waiting to see it barrelling out of the woods. It may or may not have been a young grizz.

    Caine: My condolences. Esme was a good rat.

  44. says

    Imagine a Yorkshire terrier savagely attacking you. Yeah, scary.

    Welp, when I was a teenager my friend’s little brother — about 5 years old — almost lost an eye because a Shih Tzu launched itself viciously at his face. So yeah, kind of scary.

  45. Sili says

    Well, some of the difference is that dachshunds are probably not going to be able to take your arm off if they decide to harm you.
    Which is good, because doxies can be grumpy little assholes sometimes. Same with cocker spaniels.

    When I had a paper route I was only ever bitten (luckily not seriously) by two dogs: a king poodle and a dachshund (it jumped and got me knee). The dogs I was most scared of were the neighbours’ schäfers – damn protective demon spawn.

    But I’m won’t claim that my anecdotal experience is representative of anything much.

  46. Patricia, OM says

    Ms Daisy – Yeah, I caught that faith/doubt/sinner crap, but held my nose and carried on to the end. You can blame my therapist for that *snort* I’m too trapped in black/white thinking. And all this time I thought my bullshit meter was getting better. *grin*

    The footage of the destruction, and the crumbling cities is heartbreaking. I’ve never seen that Chris Hedges before, so I’m going to do some research before buying his book.

  47. Sili says

    Size of the dog is not necessarily correlated with danger. A mistreated, vicious shar-pei is much more dangerous than a well-trained, even-tempered pit bull.

    Ah, but see! If it had been a pit, should would have been dead!

  48. says

    kristinc
    That’s why I wrote “you”, given that we’re all adults here, not “being a 5 yo”
    And no, I won’t believe anybody who claims that they’d be more terrified by a Yorkshire terrier attacking than by a pitbull attacking.
    It’s not honest to talk about a peaceful pitbull vs an agressive Chihuahua. The honest discussion is about the difference between an agressive pitbull and an agressive Chihuahua.

  49. says

    Addendum: That’s also why I think that big dogs are generally better trained and better behaved than small dogs: The owner of a big dog just can’t have the animal thrust itself forward barking madly and barring its teeth while the Chihuahua owner will just pick the little fucker up and smile and make cutsey noises.

  50. says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter, that’s odd, because everything I’ve read about Adult Children of Alcoholics has been about personality traits and family roles. I’ve never heard of an ACOA 12-step program. But if you have, I can see how confusion might arise.

  51. Tethys says

    schäfers

    Google translate was no help.

    I figured out that this is known as a German Shepard in the U.S.

  52. says

    I’m a little confused by some of these comments, they seem waaaaay off topic.

    That said, this video amazes me. I’m not always sure what I’m looking at. What are all these greens and yellow lights?

  53. thunk, cоюз and skycrane says

    Dogs:

    Never liked them… Not a pet person in general.

    Adam:

    That is the aurora, the northern/southern lights.

    Also, welcome to the endless thread, where anything goes and nothing is off-topic! Grog is available on the left.

  54. jackiepaper says

    Skepifem, pitty breeds are great pets, if they have great owners. I’ve been told I deserve to have my children mauled to death for having one of my own. I’ve been told I should not be allowed to have kids in my house at all. She’s a lovely, gentle and yes, she’s a blocky, muscly, energetic, typical pitty. Please don’t hate or fear my stumpy little wiggle of a pooch. She doesn’t deserve that.

  55. Richard Austin says

    Adam:

    I’m a little confused by some of these comments, they seem waaaaay off topic.

    That said, this video amazes me. I’m not always sure what I’m looking at. What are all these greens and yellow lights?

    This is TET. There is no topic. There is only Zuul.

  56. Patricia, OM says

    Markita – That’s what I’ve read about Adult Children of Alcholics too.

  57. says

    Caine, sorry to hear about Esme. Stress of motherhood? I hope the ratlets do alright on artificial rats’ milk.

    My son found a 3-week-old kitten once. We weaned her to a dish very young and all her life she went to her dish for comfort. She ended up a very fat cat since we had others around getting kibble on demand.

  58. says

    “Penn State tears down statue”–Strike 1 for accuracy. “Takes down” does not equal “tears down.”

    The Football program should be banned from competing in the university league for as many years as Joe Paterno covered up for Jerry Sandusky. Any championships they won should be awarded to the second-place team. And the entire town should get trained about the meaning of trauma and complicity.

  59. KG says

    Caine,

    Really sorry to hear about Esme. I’ve never personally known a rat, but she was clearly a fine and much loved companion. Hope the ratlets will be OK. Crip Dyke – sorry to hear about your dog too. OK now?

  60. says

    The entire U.S. Border Patrol should be investigated and charged if appropriate for assault, battery, sexual assault, manslaughter, criminal negligence, abuse of process, failing to follow procedures, and corruption. And then fired.

  61. Matt Penfold says

    Pappa has spoken.

    He is scum.

    I woke up this morning after having a dream about punching a rape joke apologist in the face. I must have actually thrown a punch in my sleep, as I managed to punch myself in the face!

  62. otrame says

    Caine, I’m sorry about your rat. I lost Hattie about a year ago, but I wasn’t too sad because she had been missing Mattie who died a couple of months earlier, though I tried to give her some extra attention after her life-long partner was gone. They were old ladies, nearly 3 years old.

    I hope your babies are old enough that you will not have too much trouble keeping them going until they can be weaned. Good luck.

  63. Pteryxx says

    random via BB again, journalist Irin Carmon responds to Holliday’s misleading book chapter:

    My favorite part about working at Jezebel was being part of a raucous, funny, feminist community on the Internet that also wasn’t afraid to call people out, even people we liked, when the occasion warranted it. I also learned how the sometimes raw tools of the Internet — emotion, immediacy, direct access to primary sources — could be used for good as well as gossip. They could mean the difference between well-meaning and unread and well-meaning and widely-discussed.

    But in Holiday’s formulation, sexism or discrimination aren’t real, they’re just something he uses as a way to sell products. No one actually believes in what they write or the issues they’re writing about, because, Holiday claims, we are all motivated by a desire for attention or money. I’ll freely admit that like most writers, I prefer my work to be read and I like to be paid for my labor. But you know what reliably gets more traffic than articles about gender or, the beat I’ve been on for several years now, politics and reproductive rights? Cats and iPhones.

    Quoted here:

    http://boingboing.net/2012/07/23/journalist-irin-carmon-respond.html

    Her full article at Salon:

    http://www.salon.com/2012/07/23/did_i_ruin_journalism/

  64. KG says

    Please don’t hate or fear my stumpy little wiggle of a pooch. She doesn’t deserve that. – jackiepaper

    Stone me, that’s so fucking stupid; in my experience, pitbull owners often come out with similar fuckwitted crap, which is far from reassuring. The person your pitbull is approaching doesn’t know how sweet and cuddly it is – at least, according to you. It is an absolutely rational response to be afraid of an animal of a type that was bred to be capable of killing “prey” larger and stronger than humans, and has indeed killed or seriously injured a considerable number of people.

  65. Patricia, OM says

    Adam – Here’s some friendly advise regarding the TET, try not to get in line for the spanking couch behind Louis, it isn’t the bleating that will bother you, it’s the amount of time you’ll waste waiting for the upholstery to dry.
    *le smirk*

  66. says

    Thank you all for the condolences. ♥ It may have been an embolism, after describing things to our vet. I’m so sad I’m beyond words.

    The ratlets are okay, but hungry. We had no luck finding formula in Glen Ullin or New Salem, we’ll be in town tomorrow. Feeding them isn’t a problem, you just use a cloth dipped in formula around your finger and keep dripping onto it.

    I gave the ratlets dishes of milk & yogurt, which they have been drinking.

  67. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    Esme the Mighty, dead?

    :(

    Condolences, Caine. Good luck with the ratlets.
    ————————————————

    Border Patrol has apparently become a haven for more thugs who want to wear uniforms as an excuse for their behavior. And they wonder why people don’t like them.
    ————————————————

    Surrender, Penn State! Your clay-footed idol has brought yet more shame unto you, and now you’ve got alumni joining the idiot parade. I feel sorry for any decent people who work there or attend classes there – they’ll have this following them around for the rest of their lives, all because of one pair of jackasses.
    ————————————————-

    I’m actually looking forward to getting more thunderstorms this evening. It cooled down quite a bit after the last one and the trees and grass look healthier.
    ————————————————-

    @ Gillell re: pics from previous thread – the one with David carrying your daughter on his shoulders is adorable.

  68. says

    The person your pitbull is approaching doesn’t know how sweet and cuddly it is – at least, according to you.

    Well yes, but the person my great big Lab galumphs up to doesn’t know how sweet she is either, so it’s not relevant. Responsible dog owners keep their dogs under control, period.

  69. says

    KG

    The person your pitbull is approaching doesn’t know how sweet and cuddly it is – at least, according to you.

    When I walked the boxers I had several people change sides or generally acting cautiously. Can’t blame them. I thought it to be the polite thing for me to step to the side of the road, get me between the free part of the road and the dog, tell him to sit and wait until people passed. Because they were fucking big dogs and somebody just approaching us can’t know anything about me or the dog.
    But it’s also not OK to just fling vile shit at dog-owners for no other reason than them having that dog.

  70. Patricia, OM says

    Markita Lynda – What I’ve read has been about family roles. So far I’ve turned out to be the classic hyper-responsible eldest child, and eldest daughter, two different place holders. Crap, it’s been so long since I’ve read any of my books on the subject I’ve forgotten the authors. But at no time was a dose of religion suggested as helpful therapy.

  71. dianne says

    try not to get in line for the spanking couch behind Louis, it isn’t the bleating that will bother you,

    Of course not. The bleating is the best part! (Wanders off attempting to look innocent.)

  72. dianne says

    @108: Well, fuck pancreatic cancer up the RAS mutation with a decaying porcupine protease.

  73. Walton says

    I’m a little confused by some of these comments, they seem waaaaay off topic.

    That said, this video amazes me. I’m not always sure what I’m looking at. What are all these greens and yellow lights?

    This is an open thread. Off-topic is, by long tradition, allowed.

    (Also, welcome.)

    ====

    I have a serious phobia of dogs, and often experience panic attacks when I’m around them. I can’t really differentiate between dangerous and non-dangerous dogs, since my fear isn’t a rational one: if a dog runs at me, I’m likely to have a panic attack which I can’t control. That’s why I much prefer it when dog owners are responsible and keep their dogs on the leash in public places. :-)

    That said, I’m very uncomfortable with the UK’s Dangerous Dogs Act, which makes certain breeds of dog (pitbulls included) illegal to own, and gives animal welfare officers authority to confiscate them and (in some cases) to kill them. (I don’t know how the law differs in other jurisdictions.) There’s something I find deeply wrong, on a moral level, about a law targeting a group of animals for systematic destruction purely because of their genes and ancestry. Dogs aren’t things, to be disposed of for the convenience of humans; they’re living creatures with personalities and experiences and feelings.

  74. says

    Well yes, but the person my great big Lab galumphs up to doesn’t know how sweet she is either, so it’s not relevant. Responsible dog owners keep their dogs under control, period.

    That’s obviously true, but it doesn’t negate the problem that the person approaching has no clue if you’re one of the responsible owners. Schrödinger’s vicious dog and asshole owner.
    It’s a lot like with dog poo: The dog’s just a dumb animal acting according to its instincts. The fault lies with the animal walking on two legs. Sadly, the price is most often paid by others.

  75. Patricia, OM says

    Have some three minute grog Louis!

    *eyes his flock for a four horned Jacob*

  76. Walton says

    (That said, I understand that pitbulls are dangerous. I’m just not comfortable with the casual approach that our society adopts to taking animal lives, in general.)

  77. birgerjohansson says

    Tom Cruise sits down with aliens and has a drawer marked ‘phone chargers’ http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/opinion/columnists/tom-chose-katie-from-all-the-women-in-the-world-2012072035067
    — — — —
    Targeting a whole breed of dogs (Godwin alert)

    Most German Shepherds (shäfers) were originally white.
    Hitler wanted the dogs to look more wolf-like (Nazis had a serious wolf fetish) so he ordered the white German Shepherds to be exterminated (true). Only a few white German Shepherds now remain.

  78. says

    it doesn’t negate the problem that the person approaching has no clue if you’re one of the responsible owners.

    This is true; intent is not magic. I do my best to make it apparent that I’m going to be responsible with my dog — I taught her to walk politely on her leash instead of letting her lunge and tow me, I move to one side to allow other people plenty of room on the sidewalk, I keep her in close physical control around running children (even though she’s super good with kids) or other animals, I watch out for her behavior instead of being complacent. If she acts agitated I address it instantly by getting her attention or removing her instead of standing around saying stupid things like “calm down” and telling everyone how she’s harmless really.

    I generally do everything I can to telegraph “I know that large dogs can be scary and/or dangerous, and me and my dog aren’t going to encroach on you and your space”.

  79. Pteryxx says

    I generally do everything I can to telegraph “I know that large dogs can be scary and/or dangerous, and me and my dog aren’t going to encroach on you and your space”.

    Shuffling paws?

  80. says

    TLC:

    It was a bear about 20 feet away from me. I wish I could say I was brave enough to study it, but I wasn’t. I turned tail and walked, didn’t run, back down the road, looking over my shoulder the whole time, and just waiting to see it barrelling out of the woods. It may or may not have been a young grizz.

    Fuck “brave.” Better you be in one piece and posting here than in multiple bear scats in the woods.

    Patricia, I take it your therapist is one of those who think that everybody’s entitled to their own opinion facts? That’s unfortunate. As for Hedges, I’ve read American Fascists, and I can wholeheartedly recommend it. So long as he’s talking about socioeconomics and corporate power, he’s fine. When he gets onto the subject of religion or atheism, forget it.

    Markita Lynda, you might want to google on “dog whisperer abuse.”

    Golden retrievers tend to be hyper, especially as puppies. I don’t deny that a lot of owners are abusive fucks, but sometimes, again, it’s a lack of training that’s to blame.

    And, yep, ACOA is 12-step, as is Alateen. It’s true that there is a lot of variation in meetings, so you may have lucked out on one that cut out all the godbothering.

    Agree with you entirely on Penn State and the Border Patrol.

    Giliell, yeah, I was about to say that a lot of small-dog owners don’t take their responsibilities to train and control them seriously, because “they’re so little and cute!” True, a Chihuahua isn’t going to do the same amount of damage that a larger dog will do, but it’s still a dog, and it still has to be socialized and trained.

    Hi, Adam. This is an open thread, so there is no topic.

    Jackiepaper:

    I’ve been told I deserve to have my children mauled to death for having one of my own.

    Giliell, agree again. Responsible dog owners control their dogs and respect the fears of strangers to the dogs, but what was said to Jackiepaper was unconscionable, and I can understand their emotional reaction on this thread in light of that.

    Esteleth: Oh, no. :( And, holy shit, pancreatic cancer is possibly the worst cancer there is.

  81. Walton says

    Most German Shepherds (shäfers) were originally white.
    Hitler wanted the dogs to look more wolf-like (Nazis had a serious wolf fetish) so he ordered the white German Shepherds to be exterminated (true). Only a few white German Shepherds now remain.

    I never knew that. What a strange and sad piece of history.

  82. Muse says

    Sympathy to Caine.

    Heh – I never knew Sally Ride wasn’t straight. And for what I found on a brief googling – she may have publicly come out in her obituary.

    I wish more small dog owners would train their damn dogs. Just because it’s small doesn’t mean bad behavior is cute.

  83. Pteryxx says

    if I could get a pair of rats, I’d totally name them Esme and Sally right now.

  84. says

    Muse, I had the same thought. She and her partner were together for a long, long time, too.

    Very sad to hear of her death. She was an inspiration to me as a kid.

  85. Muse says

    And for pedanticness – Sally Ride was the first American woman in space – Valentina Tereshkova was first.

  86. says

    Giliell — it never fails to gobsmack me that people let their tiny children come running up to my huge dog, their faces level with her gigantic head and her jaws that could crush their throat in a second. Hello? Just because the Lab you grew up with loved kids doesn’t mean mine does! (She does, but they don’t know that.) Unbelievably stupid.

  87. Patricia, OM says

    Ms Daisy – My therapist is a child trauma specialist. She was chosen for me as being the closest thing they had to a PTSD therapist, that is a woman. I’m on Oregon Health plan and get very little say in my mental health care.

    Yep, that sucks, but it’s way better than thousands of others get, and I’m grateful I get any coverage at all.

  88. says

    I wish more small dog owners would train their damn dogs. Just because it’s small doesn’t mean bad behavior is cute.

    ARGH yes. It’s a dog, not Muvver’s Pweshus. No, it is not being clever and adorable. It’s being obnoxious. Teach it how to behave!

    My pet peeve is those STUPID retractable leashes. Yes, it’s a brilliant idea to let your dog dash off at the drop of a hat, and absolutely guarantee that they never know the concept of “loose leash”. Geniuses.

  89. Pteryxx says

    Ms Daisy Cutter… ugh… I’ve been that person showing up naked and crying on a neighbor’s doorstep. Thank you, random decent people who care enough to share their phones.

  90. Stevarious says

    So, apropos of nothing, I’m in my store this afternoon when a customer walks in. He’s a teenager wearing a black t-shirt with an odd logo on the front – two arms crossed in a traditional ‘arm-wrestling’ pose. And above this logo is one word. “MANTHEM”. Ugh.
    But I’m determined to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, so as I’m wringing him up, I drop a couple of leading questions. Sure enough, he’s a student at the local Christian college. As he turns to leave, I see the back of the shirt has the first half of 1 Corinthians 11:3 printed on it, like so:

    I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ

    So any time that someone whines that good, liberal christians are all about equality, please be aware – even at the liberal christian colleges, the kids are one ellipse away from wearing their misogyny on their shirts.

  91. says

    Possible substitutes for rat milk:

    “Whole, raw, fresh goat milk; KMR® (Kitten Milk Replacer); Esbilac® (puppy formula); Enfamil (without iron); or Soyalac human formula have all been used. The powdered formula is usually used rather than the liquid as you can mix up a fresh batch each day and the powder will last longer. The liquid formulas have to be used within 3 days after opening. Lambert Kay™ makes a Mother’s Helper™ puppy formula that can also be used for rats and other orphan babies.”

    AFMRA: Caring for rat & mouse orphans

    Yeah, Patricia, that kind of thing. And hypervigilance.

  92. Sili says

    More people are killed each year in the U.S. by golden retrievers — about 13 — than any other breed. I suppose that’s because people don’t respect them and abuse their good nature.

    And golden retrievers are one of the most popular breeds.

    Though, interestingly, only No. 4.

  93. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Ms Daisy Cutter: Thanks. The bear seemed fairly interested in avoiding me as well once it realized I was there. I suppose I may have surprised it a little, which I suppose makes me all the luckier.

    Regarding dangerous dogs: I know many gentle natured, albeit somewhat thickheaded, pit bulls and pit bull crosses. There are many people who appreciate the finer qualities of the breed working to tone down the aggression, and I think this is a better solution.

    It is true that the gangster image of the pit bull attracts many of the wrong kinds of owners, but I’m very uncomfortable with punishing the whole breed because of this.

    It’s not like pit bulls are the only dogs capable of killing things much larger than themselves anyways.

  94. Ogvorbis says

    Saw a bumper sticker today: “Father Knows Best: Romney in 2012″. So now the radical right is denying that Obama is a father?

  95. cicely says

    Baby skunks are really cute.

    Not when they’re in my backyard, they’re not!

    Giliell, thanks for linking the pics! I especially like the tigers. That one looks regal and smug at the same time.

    Sorry about your aunt.

    I just realized the only thing worse than peas is fruitcake…

    Depends on the fruitcake. My mother-in-law’s was teh awesome.
    I suppose you could weaponise fruitcake by adding peas to the recipe.

    The only value to be found in peas involves them being mashed up and used to make it easier to insert the porcupine.

    It all depends on the rigidity of your porcupine. Hard, frozen peas for still-pliable porcs, but pureed if it has already stiffened up. Pack it in tightly in either case, form (if necessary/possible/desired), then freeze.

    Welcome in, One Thousand Needles.

    *hugs* for Cipher. Sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant day. I wouldn’t book another one like that, if I were you.

    New Thread!!!!!
    -

  96. says

    So now the radical right is denying that Obama is a father?

    Have you ever seen his kids’ birth certificates?

  97. says

    KristinC:

    Giliell — it never fails to gobsmack me that people let their tiny children come running up to my huge dog, their faces level with her gigantic head and her jaws that could crush their throat in a second. Hello?

    Note that DogsBite.org is dismissive of the need to teach children to be cautious around dogs. Of course, the average toddler is not going to be cautious about that. It’s the responsibility of their parent or guardian to supervise them when they’re interacting with a dog — any dog, and for that matter any animal — and to prevent them from approaching strange animals uninvited.

    What really galls me are the parents who let their kids abuse their pets, as in pull their ears and tails and so forth, then freak out when the inevitable snap or scratch happens and demand that the “vicious animal” be put down. Good grief, animals are living beings, not plush toys.

    Patricia, sympathies. I’ve been there before. Not Oregon, but without much choice in mental health providers. The fact that it’s better than what most people get is a stinging indictment of how we deal with health in general and mental health in particular.

  98. thunk, cоюз and skycrane says

    Esteleth, dianne, etc:

    :( RIP, Ride.

    TLC: Well that’s good you’re not in pieces.

  99. Tethys says

    More people are killed each year in the U.S. by golden retrievers — about 13 — than any other breed.

    Were they killed by dog attack?

    I know that every year duck hunters die when their dog accidentally steps on the gun, or knocks their owner out of the boat.

  100. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    One of my exes worked for an obedience training school that also trained “working” dogs.

    She said that the staff loved getting big dogs: shepherds, retrievers, pit bulls, etc in for training. Because 9 times out of 10, the owners knew exactly what it was they had and wanted a dog that was safe. But owners of little dogs? They wanted their little angels to be house trained, nothing more. And don’t you dare discipline their dogs! Many of the little dogs are very pampered, too.

    Add to that the view that many people have – that small dogs are harmless – and you’ve got a nasty combination.

  101. Patricia, OM says

    Ms Daisy – Thanks! Yep, it does show the state of our system when we have to say “my anything that sucks, is better than nothing”.

    The other outrage is the care our veterans get. Ha! Volunteering at the VSO has opened my eyes to a lot of things I never bothered to think about before.

  102. sisu says

    It’s the responsibility of their parent or guardian to supervise them when they’re interacting with a dog — any dog, and for that matter any animal — and to prevent them from approaching strange animals uninvited.

    Absolutely. My kids love love love dogs and we have worked hard to teach them that you never approach a dog uninvited. First you ask the dog’s person if it’s okay, then you offer an outstretched hand for the dog to sniff, and only then can you pet it. It’s astonishing to me how many people don’t teach their kids basic safety rules around animals!

  103. says

    If you want to shudder, look at YuTub videos of children and pets: “Sweetest cat ever” and so on, which show babies and toddlers mauling cats and dogs–why more kids don’t get their faces clawed off is a tribute to our domestic animals–certainly not to their parents.

  104. sphex says

    @Caine: I am so sorry to hear about Esme. Keeping you and the ratlets in my thoughts.

  105. Ogvorbis says

    (I was finding out what a “dibbler” is.)

    He’s the guy what sells the things that are sorta like sausages. Inna bun.

  106. Rip Steakface says

    So this came up in my Google+ stream. Very, very moderately accommodationist, but not too badly (he still adds the “just keep it to your fucking self” to make up for the “Excellent! Carry on!”).

  107. cicely says

    Esme is dead.

    Oh, Caine, I am so very sorry. *industrial strength hug*
    I hope the ratlets will be okay.

    Crip Dyke: hoping for a speedy recovery for your dog.

    Walton: I have no words.
    :( :( :( :( :( :(

    It was a bear about 20 feet away from me.

    O.O

    Sally Ride, 1951-2012

    :(
    -

  108. Patricia, OM says

    It only occurs to me now that I probably shouldn’t have mentioned my dibble with Louis around…

  109. says

    Rip Steakface, that got a few laughs out of me, but I basically went into “fuck you fucker” mode when he got to the “do you vote based solely on your religious beliefs?” panel.

    Why? Because he portrays someone voting for a candidate because of support for gay rights as silly when another candidate might benefit them as a business owner.

  110. Louis says

    Patricia,

    I have repeatedly said I am not that kind of boy on a first date.

    It’s almost true too.

    Louis

  111. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Saw a bumper sticker today: “Father Knows Best: Romney in 2012″. So now the radical right is denying that Obama is a father?

    They’ll deny he even exists except on the ballot.

    I saw a bumper sticker that immediately reminded me of Rev. BDC.

    “Save the Ales”.

  112. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう!) says

    I was walking home from the bar one evening when a truck stopped in front of a house about half a block ahead of me.
    A man and a pair of rottweilers got out.
    The rottweilers began galumphing toward me (not very threatening but rottweilers!, ya’know?)
    I says to myself, “Self, this is it, then. I’m going to die.”
    But I kept walking forward.
    The man held up his hand with the truck keys and jingled the keys.
    The dogs turned on a dime and ran to him.
    I continued home.
    Yay for properly trained dogs!

  113. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう!) says

    Holy Hell!
    This is some rainstorm!

  114. Patricia, OM says

    I have repeatedly said I am not that kind of boy on a first date.

    Yes, yes, it is true, that as Keeper of the Paddles, I have heard you shouting that from behind the hallowed walls of Castle Anthrax.

  115. Patricia, OM says

    Caine – Is there anyway you could use kitten bottles to make feeding a bit easier?

  116. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    It’s raining! With lightning and everything! Woo!

  117. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう!) says

    cicely
    I’m in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and we are under both a “Severe Thunderstorm Warning” and a “Tornado Watch”.

  118. Ogvorbis says

    Markita:

    Тоа беше знак на протест против гниење тринаесет.

  119. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    TMI alert:

    There is apparently a fucking swamp in my lower intestine. D: D:

  120. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう!) says

    Markita Lynda #178
    That was so much like a haiku, I tried to finish it.
    In translating to and from Japanese, I found that “wildly” can be “rambo”.
    So I stopped.

  121. ibelieveindog says

    Esteleth:

    There is apparently a fucking swamp in my lower intestine. D: D:

    LOL – do you have the IBS?

    My dog, on treatment for giardiasis, and I, premenstrual, spent the weekend grossing each other out.

    BTW, how do you change the part of your nym after the comma? I tried to do it on Edit My Profile and nothing happened.

  122. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    Negative, ibelieveindog (can I call you “dyslexic theist?”)

    Just gassy.

  123. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    skeptifem @5:

    Meanwhile pit bulls get another TV show to advertise how great they are as pets.

    anecdote:
    the first dog I ever lived with (was my best friends) was a pit bull. She was lovable, wonderful, and never bit anyone. She was intimidating but that was b/c she was big*. I have no experience with pits other than her, so I can’t speak to any problems pit bulls may or may not have.

    *So big that she took a running leap out of the yard one day and got hit by a car. I hope that she died with minimal pain.

    ****
    Ms. Daisy:

    Shirley Phelps-Roper is running the show now.

    Given that their sole reason for existence is to spew hatred so palpable you can cut it with a spork, I’d dearly love it if their “c’mon hit me so I can sue you” attack plan would backfire in their faces.

    Social networks under the sea
    Fishbook?

    Ariel.seaweedisgreener.tumblr.com

    No, carrots are disgusting. Not just the texture but the taste. Whereas pickles are AWESOME.

    Dem’s fightin’ words.
    Yo Bugs!
    Yo Buster!
    Yo Babs!
    Get her!
    ****
    Ogvorbis:

    I am currently slow cooking some baby back ribs out on the grill

    :::http://www.free-emoticons-gallery.com/wp-content/themes/eStore/timthumb.php?src=http://www.free-emoticons-gallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/super-lecken-emoticons.png&w=298&h=226&zc=1:::

    ****
    birgerjohanssen:
    upon thy recommendation, I didst purchase ‘A Madness of Angels’ on this day.
    Kate Griffin knows how to use the right words to create awesome images.

    ****
    Caine:
    I’m so incredibly sorry for the loss of Esme.

    ****

    Sili @57:
    Thank you for that.
    The media reports maulings by pit bulls but fails to present anything to counter the belief that they’re inherently dangerous. I’m sure there are a great many pit bull owners who have had no issues with their dogs.

    ****

    Crip Dyke:
    is your dog going to pull through?

    ****

  124. ibelieveindog says

    Esteleth,

    Fortunately I am neither of those things, but you may call me whatever you please; I’m not picky! I joined here shortly after I adopted my baby beagle and I was all dog, all the time.

    Now that I reread my response to you, it seems I might have been insensitive with the LOL. I apologise for that.

    Alethea H. “Crocoduck” Dundee,

    Thanks! I’ll try it.

  125. Patricia, OM says

    chigau – dammit! That cartoon made me snerk perfectly good sangria all over my keyboard.

    *flounces over & grabs Chigaus paddle*

  126. says

    …and then it will change all over, even in your past utterances.

    Chigau, :-)

    A storm approaches
    And two nighthawks wheel wildly
    Swooping for insects.

    We got some dramatic clouds, a lot of growling thunder, and a spatter of giant raindrops. The clouds moved off east to drown Scarborough or Pickering.

  127. Rip Steakface says

    @161 Caerie

    Full agreement. I think he was trying to pander a bit given The Oatmeal’s large audience, but that’s not an excuse.

  128. says

    Dr. Steve Novella debates an antivaxxer at [gag!] Freedomfest in Las Vegas. His opponent was Dr. Julian Whitaker:

    …he is the founder of the Freedom of Health Foundation, which is, as you probably guessed, an organization designed to promote “health freedom” (or, as I like to call it, freedom for quacks from pesky government interference directed at protecting the public). Not surprisingly, he is very much opposed to California Bill AB2109, which would mandate informed consent for parents who want to claim religious or philosophical exemptions to school vaccine mandates.


    A storm approaches
    Nighthawks buzz and wheel wildly,
    Swooping for insects.

  129. says

    You know what I really love about pitbulls? They’re such romantic creatures. (Not safe for work/children/lunch/dinner)

    Patricia:

    The other outrage is the care our veterans get.

    Don’t get me started. I will blow a gasket.

    Markita Lynda:

    If you want to shudder, look at YuTub videos of children and pets: “Sweetest cat ever” and so on, which show babies and toddlers mauling cats and dogs–why more kids don’t get their faces clawed off is a tribute to our domestic animals–certainly not to their parents.

    It’s sad. Sad for the animals, and also a missed opportunity to teach the kids empathy.

    Sili, the U.S. has so many weird little museums. I’ve been to the Museum of Bad Art, myself. My favorite piece was A Mariachi in Tiananmen Square.

  130. says

    Kristinc, the rolling of the fabric is great if you want to make hems. If it’s just being persnickety, you can try pinning the fabric to paper and then sewing it. Tissue paper or writing paper. or white newsprint. Then you can just tear it away at the seam line, now that it’s perforated.

  131. Patricia, OM says

    Just watched the NBC news (it’s what I get on antenna)- now I see what so many of you are riled up about. Those incredible fuckwits howling how unfair the colleges punishment is. Seriously?!!!

    Cue the catholic church for some godloving sympathy. For fucks sake.

  132. says

    Thanks Markita — I’ve always had good luck starching the everloving crap out of it. That holds the buggers in place. I’m just starching more tediously than I would like to because this is a long skirt with a wide hem.

  133. says

    Dr. Whittaker’s anti-science screed appears to be copying the look and colour scheme of a prominent heath newsletter marketed to the over-50 crowd. I am having brainfade and don’t remember the university or the name of the newsletter.

  134. Patricia, OM says

    Ms Daisy – Veterans care/blown gasket – yep, every Wednesday & Thursday I get a craw full of fresh hell.

  135. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Lucky I had a chance to check back.

    Thanks for the sympathies on my doggie.

    Rat poison is an anti-coagulant. Catch it early and you can help the clotting so you don’t get internal bleeds. If she gets in a fight or something (which she never does), any injuries can cause uncontrolled bleeding…unless the coagulant thing is treated.

    So generally this is controllable and we expect her to be fine.

    The one X factor is that she’s old and during this time period her risk of stroke is elevated. Since she’s old, stroke is a real risk, unlike with a young dog. But the risk is only elevated for about 3 weeks. Assuming she doesn’t have a CVA during this time period, then there will be no permanent damage.

    In other words, everything looks good, but any problems that crop up in the next couple weeks will be amplified in risk due to the poison. We do know that we got enough out of her system that it won’t cause uncontrolled bleeding on its own – w/o other injuries, etc.

    Hope that explains where we’re both at.

    No time to read much else. If people other than Caine need sympathies, I have many to spare. Know that I’m thinking well of all of you.

    If people need congarats, I’ll forward the ones that have been dancing around my new home in celebration of my move.

    best,
    crip dyke

  136. DLC says

    Markita @193 : Dr. Novella wiped the floor with Whittaker.
    Apparently even some of the wingnuts in the crowd agreed with Dr Novella’s points.

    PZ @OP : um… so if I don’t pay protection, something BAD might happen to my planet ? Who do I send the money to, Marvin the Martian ?

  137. Patricia, OM says

    DLC – Evidently you missed the memo re: the Illudium Q-36.

    It is safe.

  138. drbunsen le savant fous says

    And a bucket full of hugs for you, Erista, if you’re reading. I hear ya :(

    Threadrupt, may or may not catch up as I have Stuff to do.

    *waves* to everyone.

  139. thunk, cоюз and skycrane says

    Audley, Chigau:

    There better be a storm already before I start complaining about how canadian severe tstm warnings aren’t specific enough.

  140. says

    Patricia:

    Caine – Is there anyway you could use kitten bottles to make feeding a bit easier?

    No, those are much too big. Caplets for syringes can be had, or so I’m told, but the easiest way with ratlets is to use a cloth around your finger* dipped in formula, then use a dropper to keep it soaked. Trying to individually nurse each ratlet would not only be much work, it’s just not the simplest way to do it. We’re all about going the easiest route here. We’ll stop by our vet clinic tomorrow morning and get recommends on the right formula and switch Esme’s surgery appointment to a wellness check and sexing verification for the ratlets.

    *We figure we’ll got with cloth wrapped and dipped mitten style, in order to nurse everyone at the same time, which is what they are used to doing.

    Alethea and Tony, thank you.

  141. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう!) says

    thunk
    re: storm “warning” “watch” “advisory”
    Just look outside.
    Sometimes (your call), head for the basement!
    (if you have one)

  142. says

    Been offline because the roommate didn’t pay the internet bill. I’ve also been having a long-term houseguest, leaving me with less than my usual amounts of time.

    @Caine:
    Lots of hugs. Too bad about Esme
    @Crip dyke:
    So glad your dog’s going to be alright. She’s a sweetheart.

    @Patricia
    Yeah, L has been entirely without mental health care for over a year now.

    @dogs:
    regardless of breed, violent dogs are the owner’s fault entirely. If you train them right, they won’t be violent, and if you have a rescue dog that was raised badly, it’s on you to control the bloody thing. As for kids and pets, people need to teach their kids respect for others, including pets, but sometimes the pet can teach that lesson themselves. When I was a kid and got clawed by the cat, my parents always took the cat’s side and told me that if I had been nicer to her, she wouldn’t have scratched me. It worked a charm, too; after about the second time, I started being much more polite to the cat.

    @everyone else:
    sympathies where appropriate, congratulations where those are called for.

  143. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

    Some labradors are dangerous and harm people.

    Pleeeease.

    Life is not at all like a labrador with lipstick.

    +++++
    John K. Bini et al.; Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs; Annals of Surgery; 2011; doi 10.1097/SLA.0b013e318211cd68

    Our Trauma and Emergency Surgery Services treated 228 patients with dog bite injuries; for 82 of those patients, the breed of dog involved was recorded (29 were injured by pit bulls). Compared with attacks by other breeds of dogs, attacks by pit bulls were associated with a higher median Injury Severity Scale score (4 vs. 1; P = 0.002), a higher risk of an admission Glasgow Coma Scale score of 8 or lower (17.2% vs. 0%; P = 0.006), higher median hospital charges ($10,500 vs. $7200; P = 0.003), and a higher risk of death (10.3% vs. 0%; P = 0.041).

    Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites.

  144. Patricia, OM says

    Caine – I sorta wondered about the size thing for ratlets, having never seen one.

    Dalillama – I sympathize with the rack of mental health care. My only foot into the door is severe poverty, and honestly a good social worker that gave a shit about my circumstances.

  145. says

    Patricia:
    Definitely know about the extreme poverty thing. If you have any advice regarding resources, we’d love to hear it. Unfortunately, the OHP wouldn’t take L last time he applied, so anything that’s just through them is no good for us.

  146. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    TLC:

    It was a bear about 20 feet away from me. I wish I could say I was brave enough to study it, but I wasn’t. I turned tail and walked, didn’t run, back down the road, looking over my shoulder the whole time, and just waiting to see it barrelling out of the woods. It may or may not have been a young grizz.

    I’m sure it was a nice polite grizzly that would have cuddled up right next to you.

    (here’s a present for ya: http://www.threadless.com/product/3474/Lonely_Wolf/tab,guys/style,shirt; I like the shirt quite a bit too)

    ****
    thunk:

    Never liked them… Not a pet person in general.

    Say it ain’t so!
    I’ve always had a soft spot for (and fascination with) many animals. Growing up, I wasn’t allowed to have anything more than gerbils (5 of them as a kid; critters had the shortest life span). I seriously tested my parents’ patience when I was 15/16 by getting my first cat from the Humane Society-without their approval. They let me keep her, but boy were they mad (they came to like Cleo). Even with a cat though, I *always* wanted a dog and it wasn’t until @15 years later that I finally got one of my own (I wish there was another way to refer to pets than my pet. Despite buying them, I don’t think of my cats or dogs as mine any more than I think of my friends as mine. They’re a part of my life. They’re part of my family. I just feel strange referring to them as if I own them. I think of owning a non living object, i.e. a car, house, small Hawaiian island, not another living creature.)

    ****
    jackiepaper:

    I’ve been told I deserve to have my children mauled to death for having one of my own.

    There are not enough porcupines in the world for someone like that to fuck themselves with. That’s an abominable thing to say to someone.

    ****

    kristinc:

    Well yes, but the person my great big Lab galumphs up to doesn’t know how sweet she is either, so it’s not relevant.

    Here, here! I’m with you.
    My other roomie, E, has an American Bulldog, named Sham. He’s a big dog and is intimidating, but he’s never bitten anyone. Just to look at him though, and his desire to play and interact with people, can make people wary of him. Yet the worst he’s ever done is sniff someone’s butt.
    I’m really not a fan of blanket condemnation of pit bulls. I’m aware that there have been many documented cases of pit bull attacks. I’m aware that people breed them to fight and kill. I’m also aware of people who have had pit bulls that have *zero* issues. Then of course, there are the examples upthread of other large dogs that have attacked humans.

    ****

    Giliell:

    But it’s also not OK to just fling vile shit at dog-owners for no other reason than them having that dog.

    ^^^^This. In spades.

  147. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Tony: Awesome shirt… and LOL at the guy modelling it doing his best Dragonball Z pose.

  148. Patricia, OM says

    Dalillama – On the Oregon Health Plan thing, you just have to keep applying through your food stamps application. *yeah it sucks* Or get into the lottery Oregon has for it’s health care.

    Makes me so proud to be Merikan.

    If L is a veteran, then I can help you cut through the red tape no matter what state you are in. (Still will take some time, dammit)

  149. drbunsen le savant fous says

    Josh, over here:

    People don’t generally tell babies they’re lying when babies get eaten.

    Dingos.

    Shitballs, good point :(

    Having witnessed that whole shenanigans in realtime (though fairly young at the time), I really should remember just how much pain Lindy Chamberlain and her family were put through by the organs of state, the media and most of the country telling her she was just a lyin’ crazy woman, for decades. Hell, her and Michael both did jail time, and their convictions were only formally overturned fairly recently.

    No more dingo jokes for me. Shit, my eyes are all pricking again with embarrassment.

  150. says

    Lots of uninformed and wrong shit being said about pitbulls and dogs in general here today, but it’s always like that when this topic gets mentioned, even in a place like this.

    1000 presentations per day to Emergency Departments in the USA for dog bite injuries, most often in children

    88 deaths from dog bites in the US between 2006 and 2008, 59% of which were caused by pitbulls (link)

    65% of canine homicides between 1982 and 2006 in the USA were caused by pitbulls, Rottweilers and their mixes. (link).

    Owning a pitbull is like owning a gun, its jaw is a deadly weapon bred for not letting go and for mauling and killing. This argument of “I own one myself, and it’s always so well behaved towards our toddler” drives me up the wall. Temperament-assessment in pitbulls does not work, and you can’t tell if and when one will attack. Personally, I do not think people should be parading deadly weapons out on the street.

  151. Patricia, OM says

    *flies in gasping for air* Goddamn that Rationalia thread stinks! Somebody help me to the fainting couch….

  152. drbunsen le savant fous says

    Brownian, #316 over there:

    I came.

    Shit, does that mean I have to go to the back of the Queueueueue?

    (In other news, I’ll stop liveblogging my reactions to the Horribad Thred soon. Really, I can give up any time)

  153. Patricia, OM says

    Rorschach – Wow.

    In the veterinary practice where I worked for 13 years, as pet care providers, we got bitten more times by Cocker Spaniels than any other breed.

    However, we did routinely muzzle all Pit bull, Rottweiler, and mixes thereof. If the owners balked, they could go somewhere else. Finally, the doctors did approve muzzling Cockers before I left.

  154. drbunsen le savant fous says

    *blinks*

    Christ’s holy prepuce, where did that voxrat shitstain come from?

  155. drbunsen le savant fous says

    Ugh. Now I’m sick to my empty stomach. BRB, gonna find something soothing to fill it, like maybe a gallon of icecream. Then I’ll attempt to address my threadruptcy.

    :(

  156. drbunsen le savant fous says

    PZ: Trigger warning for extreme rage @ voxrat’s vile and directly personal slander of you. Comment #466, page 2 of the Rationalia thread. I only hope you read this first.

  157. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Walton:

    Dogs aren’t things, to be disposed of for the convenience of humans; they’re living creatures with personalities and experiences and feelings.

    Given your phobia of dogs, that’s quite a reasonable position you have. Far more so than many people I’ve encountered that would be quick to put a dog down because of their breed.

    ****

    Ogvorbis:

    He’s the guy what sells the things that are sorta like sausages. Inna bun.

    It’s legal to sell penises?

    ****

    Louis:

    I have repeatedly said I am not that kind of boy on a first date.

    Second date then?
    Shouldn’t you focus on impressing the date with your UHaul?

    ****

    ibelieveindog:

    My dog, on treatment for giardiasis, and I, premenstrual, spent the weekend grossing each other out.

    Ugh. That doesn’t sound pleasant for either of you.
    I’m curious who won though…

    ****

    DLC:

    Who do I send the money to, Marvin the Martian ?

    I wonder which weapon is worse:
    The Death Star
    or
    The “Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator”

    ****
    Dalillama:

    Been offline because the roommate didn’t pay the internet bill. I’ve also been having a long-term houseguest, leaving me with less than my usual amounts of time.

    Kinda sucks doesn’t it?
    I guess we both had no internetz about the same time.
    When can technology progress to the point that my cell phone can function like Tony Stark’s tech?

    ****

  158. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

    rorschach,

    Lots of uninformed and wrong shit being said about pitbulls and dogs in general here today, but it’s always like that when this topic gets mentioned, even in a place like this.

    That’s cultural liberalism for ya, what do you expect? “All the things I am uncomfortable seeing judgment about are therefore equally good.”

    You see my link though?

  159. Patricia, OM says

    drbunsen – No shit. Fuck that thread is foul! Here, have a five gallon bucket of 30 second grog to pour over yourself. I’m barrel diving.

    *whew*

    Now that we’re rational humans again, we could discuss whether or not there is any evidence that Louis is Smoggy’s brother, or just a cheap, sheep shed imitation.

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  160. thunk, cоюз and skycrane says

    Patricia:

    Lim (batch->infinity) Grog time = 0.

    This is to reduce explosion hazard, I guess.

  161. Patricia, OM says

    Tony – Please be assured that the Illudium Q-36 is in a secure place.

    Don’t panic.

  162. says

    Giliell — it never fails to gobsmack me that people let their tiny children come running up to my huge dog, their faces level with her gigantic head and her jaws that could crush their throat in a second.

    Note that DogsBite.org is dismissive of the need to teach children to be cautious around dogs.

    Wait, what?
    One of the most important things I taught the kids, especially the little one is to be fucking careful and never to approach a strange dog without its owner’s permission. I’ve taught her that since she could walk and it “magically” works. You teach your dog not to run towards my child, I teach my child not to run towards your dog and we’re both happy.

    Ms. Daisy Cutter
    I’m going to pull this over as not to derail the other thread.
    Statistics on infant and neonatal mortality are a bit misleading and often not properly reported in articles. The one you linked to seemed not to differentiate between neonatal and infant death (I take this from them also talking about prenatal and neonatal care as factors). The numbers show a real problem, but they also show it to be bigger in comparisson than it actually is.
    The USA are very strict in reporting neonatal death, which means that they count a 600g premie who lived for 30 seconds after birth as a dead baby while many countries simply count them as stillbirths. Neonatal care also often means that a weak neonatal will make it through the first 28 days and die at age 2 months or so.
    That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a fucking problem, but it’s mostly not on the “baby side”, but on the “mother side”.
    First the prevention of high-risk pregnancies, access to abortions (no, dear christians 12 yo are not perfectly suitable to become mothers) and, of course, prenatal care. Many things that lead to premies and therefore neonatal and infant death can be treated and prevented. I mean, had there been any risk of me having a premie in my second pregnancy because of my daily work, I would have been told to lie on the couch, have a cup of coffee and my health insurance would have paid a caretaker/nurse who’d have run my household and cared for #1. In the end that’s cheaper than paying for 2 weeks of intenive neonatal care.
    And don’t get me started on women chosing to have a homebirth with an untrained “midwife” because that costs only half the money a hospital birth costs.

  163. drbunsen le savant fous says

    Patricia – thanks for the grog. I’m off into meatspace to find some IRL icecream, because fuck I can barely think straight after that shitfest. Catch up with all you fine folk anon.

  164. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Erista:
    (crossposted to Rationalia isn’t)

    However, this lesson has always been hard for me to process, and there’s always been this part of me that wants to believe that if I can just explain it right, people will care about my abuse and how things that relate to my abuse impact me.

    It is true. There are people out there sympathetic to your abuse, who care. From one human on the internet to another: I CARE. Please know that.

    TRIGGER WARNING:

    Moreover, an organization called Bikers Against Child Abuse (BACA) are a group of people who not only care, but they take action to help children who have been abused (TL:DR, however, it really is a heartwarming article and I recommend reading it in full):
    These tough bikers have a soft spot: aiding child-abuse victims. Anytime, anywhere, for as long as it takes the child to feel safe, these leather-clad guardians will stand tall and strong against the dark, and the fear, and those who seek to harm.

    Excerpts:

    The girl chewing on her lip was abused by a relative, according to police reports – someone she should have been able to trust. He’s not in the state any longer, but the criminal case is progressing slowly, so he’s not in jail, either.

    He still terrorizes her at night, even though he’s nowhere near. She wakes, heart pounding. The nightmare feels real again. She never feels safe, even with her parents just downstairs.
    [...]
    If she is afraid to go to school, they will take her and watch until she’s safely inside.

    And if she has to testify against her abuser in court, they will go, too, walking with her to the witness stand and taking over the first row of seats. Pipes will tell her, “Look at us, not him.” And when she’s done, they will circle her again and walk her out.

    [...]
    To her parents, it is like music. Her mother wipes her eyes with her fingertips; her dad takes pictures.

    “Look how bright her face is,” says Rhythm’s therapist, who is there on the driveway, too. “It hasn’t been that bright in a long time.”

    Two of the bikers will be Rhythm’s “primaries,” her main contacts in the group. Sassy, 34, a mother of six and a former paralegal, and Tool, 46, a co-owner of a payment-processing company, will be hers. They will be available to her 24 hours a day by cellphone.

    It fucking reprehensible on all levels when children are abused, sexually or otherwise. While the scum who perpetrate such actions are condemned and make me dislike humanity, BACA reignites my faith in humanity.
    Yes there are some shitbags out there.

    There are also a *LOT* of really wonderful, caring people willing to step up and offer assistance when needed.
    I’d love to meet some of these bikers and buy them a drink.

  165. Patricia, OM says

    thunk – The powers of Pharyngula grog are so far beyond the comprehension of mere mortals that Vogons have written thousands of poems extolling its explosive orgasmic qualities.

  166. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    t http://www.inquisitr.com/282168/kentucky-girl-may-face-jail-time-after-tweeting-names-of-guilty-rapists/#YMgBDhX1DSL3EJ22.99

    The hell? How do the fuckwits get to sexually assault this woman and then practically get off scot free? And now this victim of a malicious crime is facing jail time?

    Hello!!!
    Imagine a scale.
    On one side: breaking a court order (mass of a penny). The other side: rape (with the mass of the entire earth).
    You don’t equate that shit with rape.

  167. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    The powers of Pharyngula grog are so far beyond the comprehension of mere mortals that Vogons have written thousands of poems extolling its explosive orgasmic qualities.

    I heard the grog is powerful enough to rob Q of his powers or get a group of Cylons high.

  168. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    Not fully caught up yet, but so sorry to hear about Esme Caine.

  169. says

    I don’t understand how you can determine if correlation is causation for those dog attack figures. Do aggro arseholes own pitbulls because it’s trendy in their circles, and so pitbulls are worse because they’re trained like that? I remember when it was Alsatians, and then Rottweilers that were the official Dog of Evil. Bulldogs, somewhat, too. That does give me some pause about whether it’s the owner or the breed.

  170. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

    Malathi Raghavan et al.; Effectiveness of breed-specific legislation in decreasing the incidence of dog-bite injury hospitalisations in people in the Canadian province of Manitoba; Injury Prevention; 30 June 2012; doi 10.1136/injuryprev-2012-040389

    Background: The city of Winnipeg was the first among several jurisdictions in Manitoba, Canada, to introduce breed specific legislation (BSL) by banning pit-bull type dogs in 1990. The objective of the present work was to study the effectiveness of BSL in Manitoba.

    Methods: Temporal differences in incidence of dog-bite injury hospitalisations (DBIH) within and across Manitoba jurisdictions with and without BSL were compared. Incidence was calculated as the number of unique cases of DBIH divided by the total person-years at risk and expressed as the number per 100 000 person-years. Year of implementation determined the pre-BSL and post-BSL period for jurisdictions with BSL; for jurisdictions without BSL to date, the entire study period (1984–2006) was considered as the preimplementation period. The annual number of DBIH, adjusted for total population at risk, was modelled in a negative binomial regression analysis with repeated measures. Year, jurisdiction and BSL implementation were independent variables. An interaction term between jurisdiction and BSL was introduced.

    Results: A total of 16 urban and rural jurisdictions with pit-bull bans were identified. At the provincial level, there was a significant reduction in DBIH rates from the pre-BSL to post-BSL period (3.47 (95% CI 3.17 to 3.77) per 100 000 person-years to 2.84 (95% CI 2.53 to 3.15); p=0.005). In regression restricted to two urban jurisdictions, DBIH rate in Winnipeg relative to Brandon (a city without BSL) was significantly (p<0.001) lower after BSL (rate ratio (RR)=1.10 in people of all ages and 0.92 in those aged <20 years) than before (RR=1.29 and 1.28, respectively).

    Conclusions: BSL may have resulted in a reduction of DBIH in Winnipeg, and appeared more effective in protecting those aged <20 years.

    +++++
    (for fun)
    Katie L. Gibsona, Amy L. Heysea; “The Difference Between a Hockey Mom and a Pit Bull”: Sarah Palin’s Faux Maternal Persona and Performance of Hegemonic Masculinity at the 2008 Republican National Convention; Communication Quarterly; 20 Aug 2010; doi 10.1080/01463373.2010.503151

    Despite the presence of the first woman on the Republican national ticket, this article argues that the rhetoric of the 2008 Republican National Convention (RNC) followed traditional gender scripts to celebrate hegemonic masculinity and denigrate the feminine. First, the article argues that the key RNC speakers rhetorically constructed John McCain as the archetypal hegemonic man best-suited for the U.S. presidency while simultaneously emasculating the Democratic candidate, Barack Obama. Second, the article analyzes Sarah Palin’s acceptance speech to argue that, although she crafted a persona of motherhood by employing domestic examples, maternal appeals, and a feminine discursive style, she effectively subverted that persona by joining the RNC’s celebration of hegemonic masculinity. The analysis reveals the rhetorical texture and potential consequences of a faux maternal performance, particularly within a conservative rhetorical context.

  171. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

    I don’t understand how you can determine if correlation is causation for those dog attack figures.

    From a public health standpoint, it doesn’t matter.

    But of course in reality that’s a silly question. We know it’s causation because they were bred to kill kill kill.

  172. Vilém Saptar says

    Hello TETspeople!

    Caine, oh thats awful! So sorry about Esme :( And the poor ratlets too.
    nbsp;
    Cipher, commiserations on the bad day.
    And to anyone else who needs them.
     
    X-posted on TZT:
    Nightjar,

    Eventually stumbled upon Pharyngula, liked it a lot and stayed. Got all kinds of stuff on social justice and equality injected into my brain as a result, and am a better person for it.

    Let me add a “Me too!” I completely identify with this, though I stumbled over here from a link on another blog, I forget which.

    So, yeah, you may have a point. Also, thank you for doing part of the injecting. :)

    Seconded. And not just strange gods, who’s of course the pinhead, but most of the people here, too many to name, have been so eloquent and straight battingly educating, esp. to someone like me, who’s a total ignoramus on most things social justice. (And I’ve cringed face-breakingly every time I learnt how little I knew, so much so that a good part of my face is in a permanent state of cringing, so no thanks for that :/ )

    And I should have said this a long time ago, but, thanks to everyone here who’s done so much to educate people about these issues.

    Imma be gone for sometime from these here places. Dunno how long. Haven been here long, so I can’t even call it a flounce. Take care, all. Ciao.

  173. Beatrice says

    All dogs can be dangerous if they are not properly trained or they have been abused. But out of all, some can and are likely to cause far more harm than others if they attack. In my book that is enough to make them more dangerous than others, but there are obviously some differences in what people consider dangerous.

    Yeah, I am a bit scared of dogs. The one that bit me was some kind of a mix, not very big but angry as fuck. Not trained at all. I was already scared of dogs, thanks to him, before he even bit me. You might consider that relevant to my thoughts about dogs.

  174. says

    You see my link though?

    Sorry, I have now…

    Been skimming via phone all day because I had my car in service. And there go another 1800 bucks, because this 4-year old Golf’s central locking system has melted. After the gearbox failure at age 3 that’s the second major unexpected fault in a car that is meant to be extremely reliable. I haz a sad.

  175. says

    You might consider that relevant to my thoughts about dogs.

    I was married to a dog breeder, and in that capacity had the misfortune to visit many a dog show. But it’s not the dog owner/breeder’s weird personalities that bug me most, and I don’t dislike dogs more now than what I already did 10 years ago and pre-marriage. Pitbulls are one thing, killing machines that should never be allowed near children.

    But what bugs me at least as bad is all the dog owners who disrespect the “on leash” signs, who tell me that their animal when running towards me in a public area at high speed and jumping up on me is “only playing”, as if that would excuse the intrusion of my private space. They would call their children back if they jumped up on strangers in the park, why not their dogs ?

    So yeah, it’s budgies for me in the pet department.

  176. Beatrice says

    This particular dog terrorized me for years, jumping at the fence between our gardens, barring teeth and barking whenever I went to the garden behind the house.
    He finally got me one day when I was running on the path behind the gardens, not knowing that his owner had left the garden door open.


    I can’t say that I dislike dogs. I just generally don’t trust them. And all those people saying the dog is “only playing” or “showing that he likes me” aren’t helping.
    If one wants to have a dog, they have to train it. And keep it on leash in public.

    I agree with Giliell when she says that people should also teach their kids how to act around dogs. That’s the part where other people share some responsibility with dog owners.

  177. says

    rorschach
    Sorry to hear about the car :(

    But what bugs me at least as bad is all the dog owners who disrespect the “on leash” signs, who tell me that their animal when running towards me in a public area at high speed and jumping up on me is “only playing”, as if that would excuse the intrusion of my private space.

    Do you know Martin Rütters His catchphrase is “Der tut nix, der will ja nur spielen!”

    They would call their children back if they jumped up on strangers in the park, why not their dogs ?

    Don’t count on that. It’s about the same mind-set you see with a lot of parents: Instead of educating their child /training their dog they expect the rest of the world to accomadate their whims. And they are very, very upset and feel like poor victims when their precious kid/dog gets into big trouble because they never learned what’s right and what’s wrong and in the case of children why it is wrong.
    Very well trained dogs actually can walk without a leash because they would never move from their owner’s side without permission. Guess most people wouldn’t mind a dog without a leash walking quietly and patiently next to its owner who doesn’t give a fuck about you, the cyclist, the rabbit or the bird (the dog, not the owner). Not all dogs can be trained like that (especially if the first attempt at training sucked) and people obviously suck at figuring out whether their dog needs a leash or not, that’s why there has to be rules.

  178. David Marjanović says

    …Are you all saying there are children who are not growing up around (large) dogs but still run towards them!?!?!

    that’s why there has to be rules

    …which are then summarily ignored by almost everyone. My parents live next to a park/nature reserve. Dogs are only allowed with leash and muzzle… in theory. In practice, it’s rare to see a dog with so much as a leash there, and I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen one with a muzzle! And dogs are extremely common there.

    Of course, “dog before reason” is part of specifically Viennese culture, so I’ve probably picked the most extreme example.

  179. David Marjanović says

    *finds squeeable photo*
    *squees*

    I’m sitting because I had just adjusted her head so it wouldn’t lie on my left ear anymore.

    The T-shirt, with “DINO-MITE!” on it, is a present by Giliell. Jules got one, too. :-)

  180. Beatrice says

    The law is a bit unclear here, but it seems that only “dangerous dogs” have to wear a muzzle. Dangerous dogs here defined as those that have in the past attacked and seriously injured a person or another dog unprovoked, those that have been trained for fighting and pit bulls without papers.

  181. drbunsen le savant fous says

    You know,

    I can accept (in that knotted, shitty place in my stomach where such knowledge lives) that people are doing vile, harmful shit that no-one deserves, to the innocent and vulnerable, every damn day of the week since forever.

    But that driveby from voxrat has totally fucked me. I’ve been walking around in a stunned daze for the last couple of hours, stopping to stare randomly at nothing, alternately wanting to vomit, cry, and punch things.

    What the hell.

  182. drbunsen le savant fous says

    But I did find my icecream. It was hiding under the pile of cinnamon-baked apple chunks on top of a fluffy, delicious pancake *urp*

  183. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Vilem Saptar:
    We will be here when you return. Stay safe.

  184. drbunsen le savant fous says

    Esme died?? Oh, Caine, I’m so sorry :(

    —-

    Out of all the songs on this deeply affecting album, Knight Moves is the one that has affected me the deepest and the longest. I return to it often, and it’s rolling through my head over and over again tonight.

    And if you wonder
    What I am doing
    As I am heading
    For the sink
    I am spitting out all the bitterness
    Along with half of my last drink
    I am thinking
    Of your woman
    Who is crying in the hall
    It’s like drinking gasoline
    To quench a thirst
    Until there’s nothing there left at all

    Youtube.
    Full lyrics.

  185. drbunsen le savant fous says

    I walk to your house in the afternoon
    By the butcher’s shop with the sawdust strewn
    “Don’t give away the goods too soon”
    Is what she might have told me

    And I tried so hard to resist
    When you held me in your handsome fist
    And reminded me of the night we kissed
    And of why I should be leaving

    Yeah, it’s a Suzanne fucking Vega kind of fucking night. Patricia, how’s the grog supply holding up?

  186. says

    …which are then summarily ignored by almost everyone.

    Yeah, this and the rationalia thread got me thinking:
    When did people stop to grow up?
    I don’t mean in the positive “cultivate your inner child and go dancing in the rain” sense, but the “I’m a responsible adult now who’s been given a shitload of tons because people assume that I learned not to be a whiny asshole in the last 18 years” sense.
    When did that happen?
    When did people forget that there were reasons for rules and that the trick is that they have to apply to everybody and that “breaking the rules” isn’t a fun sport and that if you are caught breaking the rules you’re not a poor prosecuted victim?
    I guess all those people would be heavily upset if they were fined 20 bucks. “My dog didn’t do anything wrong!”, just like all those people are upset for getting a speeding ticket.
    And how are you supposed to share a planet with those people?

  187. Louis says

    Giliell,

    When did people forget that there were reasons for rules and that the trick is that they have to apply to everybody and that “breaking the rules” isn’t a fun sport[1] and that if you are caught breaking the rules you’re not a poor prosecuted victim[2]?

    Bolding and annotations are mine.

    1) Oh I disagree! Rule breaking, especially creative, comedy rule breaking, should be an Olympic sport.

    2) Oh I agree! Well I agree depending on the rule of course, breaking an unjust rule and being punished for it can mean one is the victim…damn that was almost a serious point, I’ll behave.

    I’m firmly of the belief that rules are merely exciting challenges, guidelines at best, and that if caught one takes one’s punishment stoically, with a stiff upper lip, and one does not grass up the other children.

    I would also like to point out that the segment of my upbringing that was in British boarding schools had precisely no effect on me at all. No, ma’am. No effect there.

    ;-)

    Louis

  188. Beatrice says

    It’s been Leonard Cohen kind of day for me, but those are quite common and Suzanne Vega works just as well.

  189. Suido says

    Hello everyone, my first time in TET.

    Last week I bought a shiny, new, big HD monitor. This ISS video finally put it to proper HD use. Every time I think about it, I’m amazed that we managed to beat gravity, and then dwell on how human fuckwittery manages to put the strong nuclear force to shame.

    Until next time.

  190. Louis says

    Suido

    Welcome! See Lyn M for the martinis. I can currently only manage some diethyl ether.

    Mind you, in the words of Hunter S Thompson: There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge…

    So take your pick really.

    Louis

    P.S. I suppose I should point out I am working with diethyl ether, not binging on it. Honest. No really, they’d take away my parking space and stuff.

  191. says

    Hi Suido

    Louis

    2) Oh I agree! Well I agree depending on the rule of course, breaking an unjust rule and being punished for it can mean one is the victim…damn that was almost a serious point, I’ll behave.

    I think it’s clear from the context that this is about those trivial rules taht make life better and safer for everybody and that wouldn’t actually be necessary if people had some sense, like don’t text on your mobile and don’t let your dog shit on the sidewalk

    1) Oh I disagree! Rule breaking, especially creative, comedy rule breaking, should be an Olympic sport.

    Well, no.
    I’m really fed up with that. With the whole attitude of “I’m so much better than you so I can choose which rules to follow and which are just for lesser people”.
    I’m also done with the “technically still legal but exactly against the spirit and purpose of the rule”.
    I’m really not slavishly following rules. I drive more than the allowed speed quite often, but if I get caught I’m not acting all hurt and why didn’t they check the speed in front of the school where I go slowly. If that happens the problem was with me speeding, not with the cop doing their work.

  192. Louis says

    Giliell,

    My apologies, I was being humorous. I thought the comedy point about British boarding schools and the winking smiley gave that away.

    I, of course, completely agree with you about the “small” rules of life that you mention (texting while driving/dog shitting on pavement are good examples).

    Louis

  193. birgerjohansson says

    Caine, My condolences for Esme :-(

    — — —
    Muse says:
    “And for pedanticness – Sally Ride was the first *American* woman in space – Valentina Tereshkova was first.”

    Yes I get sloppy when I am in a hurry…USA considered sending women into space in the early sixties but Lyndon Johnson and others blocked it.
    I think there is abook named “The Mercury Thirteen” or something about the American women astronauts that never went.
    — — —
    Chigau

    BTW “Rambo” originated from the Rambo homestead in Sweden (ram=frame, bo= home, homestead) the surname then followed Swedish emigrants who had no idea what Stallone would do to the reputation of the name.
    — — —
    Tony,
    Kate Griffin really gets in her stride with the second novel, The Midnight mayor.
    And the women in the books are no brittle flowers. I learned many cockney swearwords.
    — — —
    Hitler also nearly ruined some dog breeds because SS and other organisations bred a lot of big dogs for aggressiveness in a hurry. After the war some breeds (schäfer, for instance) had a large percentage of excessively aggressive dogs. In the sixties this was still an issue.
    .
    NKVD/KGB could use existing breeds for their GULAG camps since there is a caucasian breed intended to escort livestock unattended by humans, and keeping away wolves and bear.
    They are so aggressive and unpredictable that they are a bona fide danger even to experienced dog handlers.

  194. Louis says

    Giliell,

    I am an honest rule breaker, and I agree one should take one’s medicine when caught. It is a legacy of boarding school, really, seriously. The whole point of boarding school was to learn how to break the rules and not get caught…that might explain a lot about our government, it certainly explains a lot about my generally irreverent attitude to life.

    But yes, the common courtesies, the little things in life that allow us all to rub along in life nicely, I guess I don’t even think of those as rules at all, although I know what you mean. I don’t text and drive because I don’t want some texting driver to total me an my family in a car wreck. I don’t let my dog’s shit remain on the pavement…even though I don’t have a dog…because I hate stepping in dogshit. To me it isn’t a rule to pick up the shit…that in this case doesn’t exist…it’s just what courteous human beings do to make their own environment marginally more tolerable for them and everyone.

    Hmmm theoretical dogshit. I did not see that happening in my day…

    Louis

  195. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    Jesus tapdancing christ. A bottle company put up a twitter advertisement stating “New baby? Reclaim your wife.” Then another saying “Feel like you’re competing with your newborn for mommy’s attention? Meet bare air-free bottles”. source.

    After a shitstorm erupted, their “apology” says “The messages had nothing to do with putting a husband needs before the baby’s needs, it was more about having a little extra time for the rest of the family.” Fucking hell. And the company is owned by two women. *headdesk*

  196. says

    Crip Dyke, I’m sorry I missed your earlier comments. Glad your dog’s going to pull through.

    Dalillama:

    Been offline because the roommate didn’t pay the internet bill.

    /facepalm

    When I was a kid and got clawed by the cat, my parents always took the cat’s side and told me that if I had been nicer to her, she wouldn’t have scratched me. It worked a charm, too; after about the second time, I started being much more polite to the cat.

    Generally this is a good idea. Some cats do lash out unprovoked due to past abuse, but in such cases the parent should consider rehoming the cat or, at least, instructing the child to leave it alone.

    Regarding Voxrat: O_O Let me guess, a regular over at Mr. Beale’s House o’ Lulz & Masturbation?

    Rorschach, has it occurred to you that the reputation of pitbulls, and therefore the attraction thereto of scumbags who want vicious dogs, just might be an issue in the numbers of attacks? And that if pitbulls were banned, the scumbags would simply resort to a different breed of dog? Or that irresponsible breeding, which is a widespread problem in the U.S., contributes to the number of pitbulls that are both genetically risky and poorly socialized?

    Also, yeah, I can’t imagine why people would get a bit upset at the idea that the dogs they’ve had for years, sometimes raised from puppyhood, are necessarily vicious killers that should be put down.

    Again: If pitbulls are inherently bad across the board, why are they used as service dogs? Why does the CDC, which cannot be accused of having any “bias toward dogs over humans” as the ASPCA or AMVA possibly could, disapprove of breed-specific legislation?

    Giliell, thanks for the backgrounder on infant and neonatal mortality.

    And don’t get me started on women chosing to have a homebirth with an untrained “midwife” because that costs only half the money a hospital birth costs.

    Over here, it’s mainly an ideological statement about the ebyls of modern medicine. Not that the medical establishment isn’t fucked up, but the glorification of birth over the result of a live, healthy baby is, too.

    When did people stop to grow up?

    I don’t mean in the positive “cultivate your inner child and go dancing in the rain” sense, but the “I’m a responsible adult now who’s been given a shitload of tons because people assume that I learned not to be a whiny asshole in the last 18 years” sense.

    When did that happen?

    Oh, lawd. You’re asking for a novella here, not a comment.

  197. opposablethumbs says

    This is the first time I’ve even been able to get anywhere near Pharyngula, let alone any other site whatsoever that I enjoy, for well over a week. It feels like forever. So I’m sorry that I have no idea at all what is going on with all of you. I would like to send a lot of hugs, though I don’t know if they’re hugs of commiseration or congratulation.

    But I have a five-minute window right now – closing any second – and I had to post this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

    Tax havens: Super-rich ‘hiding’ at least $21tn

    James Henry says his $21tn figure is a conservative estimate
    Continue reading the main story

    A global super-rich elite had at least $21 trillion (£13tn) hidden in secret tax havens by the end of 2010, according to a major study.

    The figure is equivalent to the size of the US and Japanese economies combined.

    The Price of Offshore Revisited was written by James Henry, a former chief economist at the consultancy McKinsey, for the Tax Justice Network.

    It’s from two days ago (the last time I even got a chance to glance at the news headlines) so you’ve all seen it already and Pharyngula and FtB have probably already discussed it at length. Sorry about that.

    I hope you’re all well – and I’m sorry to those who are not – and I hope to get back here eventually.

  198. says

    carlie:

    And the company is owned by two women. *headdesk*

    well, sure, but by the garbage their company is spewing, perhaps those women feel like they’re owned by their husbands.

    Blech,

  199. says

    The messages had nothing to do with putting a husband needs before the baby’s needs

    Well, that’s obviously the only people whose needs are involved, because, well, bitches ain’t shit.

    Ms.Daisy Cutter

    Over here, it’s mainly an ideological statement about the ebyls of modern medicine. Not that the medical establishment isn’t fucked up, but the glorification of birth over the result of a live, healthy baby is, too.

    That’s certainly one part of the story. Another one is women who are not involved in the whole “natural childbirth nonsense” hear about the wonderful homebirth, the promise about how “safe” they are (as safe as life gets!) and that they’re only about half the cost of a hospital birth (seems horribly overcharged to me since you provide the facilty yourself) and fly for it.

  200. says

    I sincerely hope “natural birth nonsense” there isn’t referring to all women who might make an informed choice to only use necessary medical interventions. Natural childbirth is a pretty broad descriptor.

    There’s a big difference between “my caregiver and I have determined that this is a low-risk pregnancy and I can safely give birth without medication or surgery, but should an emergency arise everything is ready for it” and “my doula has assured me it’s totally safe to give birth to a child with Down’s syndrome under a tree.”

  201. dianne says

    Good morning/afternoon/evening, thread. I’ve gotten shocking news recently. The state increased the budget on a grant. Increased? INCREASED! I’m not quite sure how they suddenly went sane, but I’m very happy about it.

  202. dianne says

    There’s a big difference between “my caregiver and I have determined that this is a low-risk pregnancy and I can safely give birth without medication or surgery, but should an emergency arise everything is ready for it” and “my doula has assured me it’s totally safe to give birth to a child with Down’s syndrome under a tree.”

    Definitely. As long as your caregiver is competent and you know what you’re getting into when you refuse interventions*. Also are aware that low risk can become high risk very abruptly. I like the birth center in a hospital model personally for low risk births: You can have a nice room with a jacuzzi, birthing ball, rocking chair–and an OR down the hall if something goes wrong and you need a c-section right now.

    *Just to make sure I’m clear about this, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with refusing interventions. All interventions have risks and benefits and the patient has the right to know what those risks and benefits are and to refuse any intervention that s/he does not want for any reason. But that refusal, like the related consent, must be informed.

  203. dianne says

    cicley: A Republican dominated government too. Must be an election year or something.

  204. Beatrice says

    I got my master’s degree in september, but managed to avoid much talk about gifts since then.

    I’ve booked myself a trip to Florence with the money I earned in odd jobs I did since finishing uni. I feel a bit bad about it, since I don’t have any prospective jobs and parents will keep supporting me. Yeah, I know, privilege.
    Anyway..
    Now, mum wants to buy me a camera as a belated graduation gift (and to have for the trip). I don’t have photography experience, but I don’t want to buy complete crap anyway. I don’t need something very expensive, but something of good quality, for a beginner would be nice. Any suggestions?

  205. says

    Caerie

    I sincerely hope “natural birth nonsense” there isn’t referring to all women who might make an informed choice to only use necessary medical interventions. Natural childbirth is a pretty broad descriptor.

    No, the natural childbirth nonsense refers to an ideological movement that presupposes the superiority of unmedicated vaginal birth over anything else, believing that this is the only correct way to give birth, that other ways aren’t even properly giving birth and that denies the scientific data and knowledge about pregnancy, birth and risks.
    If you admit that there are necessary medical interventions (well, you know, like not having a footling breech alone at home), you have already left the path of being a True Natural Birther™
    You can have all the pain you want in your childbirth. As long as it’s safe and the fetus isn’t distressed you can labour for as long as you like (you (generic you, not personal) still can if the fetus dies in the meantime, I consider your right to do so and nobody being able to force anything onto you more important). Please just don’t claim that this is the right way to give birth and that other women are a failure.
    Birth is fucking fraught with danger and nowhere near a “perfect system”.

  206. says

    Giliell, I can assure that that definition of natural childbirth is not the one that everyone uses. There certainly are people who view things that way, but not everyone. Not by a long shot. Natural childbirth education classes prepare people for hospital births, with all the attendant interventions that may take place when necessary. Many of these classes actually take place within hospitals.

    The recognition that interventions might need to be made is pretty widespread among natural childbirth advocates. That there are some very loud, dangerously misinformed people out there does not mean that they own the definition of natural childbirth. They are a tiny minority, primarily only known because of the Internet and the fact that the media loves fringe groups.

    dianne:

    I like the birth center in a hospital model personally for low risk births: You can have a nice room with a jacuzzi, birthing ball, rocking chair–and an OR down the hall if something goes wrong and you need a c-section right now.

    Yeah, that seems like a nice setup for low-risk births when the parents want to go the low-intervention route. Very nice and relaxed, but the second something goes wrong, you’re prepared for it.

    Tangentially related: I once sat in on a lecture on genetics and birth defects and was horrified when the lecturer started talking about how it was best for parents not to know what birth defects a fetus might have before it was born. It might rob them of a happy birth experience and, after all, it’s not like there’s anything they could do about it before the child was born. Never mind prenatal surgeries or having the hospital prepared for the neonate’s condition. She especially advocated parents to simply not be informed of anything that might lead them to aborting.

    How that woman was considered even remotely qualified to give that lecture, I’ll never, never know.

  207. says

  208. says

    Slightly threadrupt, but I was reading this thread over on Wonkette and one of the commenters used “douchecopter”! I’m literally loling and wishing I came up with that!

    Beatrice: re “birth center”:
    That’s the hospital that I’m going to give birth in to a T. They’re extremely flexible, so you can design your birth plan however you’d like– but there’s all of the necessary personnel and equipment right at hand should something go wrong. My SiL gave birth there last week. She used no painkillers during her labor and used the hot tub in the delivery room to ease some of the pain, but on the other hand, she was attended by two midwives and later on a doctor. When I give birth in October, I’ll have an epidural and that’s cool, too.

    I like this way of doing things. Give women ALL THE CHOICES! to safely give birth. There’s not a right way and a wrong way to do it.

  209. says

    Caerie
    Your experience with the natural childbirth movement must be very different from mine. I consider the term itself a problem: The natural way of childbirth is a horribly painfull experience that quote often results in death. It’s the naturallistic fallacy at its best.
    The whole glorification of pain is deeply misogynistic, only with sugar coating. Nobody would go for natural dentistry.

  210. says

    Audley:

    She used no painkillers during her labor and used the hot tub in the delivery room to ease some of the pain, but on the other hand, she was attended by two midwives and later on a doctor. When I give birth in October, I’ll have an epidural and that’s cool, too.

    That’s awesome. ALL THE (safe) CHOICES!

    Douchecopter is one of those words that is just perfect, like some platonic ideal made verbal.

  211. says

    Beatrice, I’m too trying to find a decent compact camera now that my old Powershot A75 finally broke down. I like Canons, and if I could find a used Powershot S90/95/100 at a reasonable price I’d buy one immediately. They are good quality, work rather well in dark conditions where most compacts just choke, and are still small enough to carry everywhere.

    S90 is old enough to be discontinued, but s95:s and s100:s are sold at around $300-$500. If that’s an acceptable price range to you I think you cannot go wrong with one of those.

  212. Beatrice says

    Thanks Giliell and Weed Monkey. I have something substantial to start with now, instead of just googling “cameras for beginners”.

    The only camera I have ever owned uses films. Yes, I’m that much behind times.

  213. thunk, cоюз and skycrane says

    thunk – The powers of Pharyngula grog are so far beyond the comprehension of mere mortals that Vogons have written thousands of poems extolling its explosive orgasmic qualities.

    Hmm… I foresee a number of engineering applications.

  214. says

    Giliell, I’ve spoken with Ina May Gaskin and edited several natural childbirth books written by people who are respected among advocates, which prompted me to do my own research to be sure of accuracy and safety. It may be I’ve only been exposed to the media and insurance friendly parts of natural childbirth, but the classes are taught in hospitals and I’ve heard what they say in at least some of them. There is the acknowledgment of and preparation for interventions, even if the parents may desire none. The fact that the mother may change her mind about pain relief during labor and that this is okay was acknowledged, too.

    I’m not going to deny that there are people who push really dangerous practices out there, though: the “birth under a tree to a child with Down’s syndrome” bit I referenced upthread was an actual birth story I read.

  215. Richard Austin says

    Beatrice:

    Now, mum wants to buy me a camera as a belated graduation gift (and to have for the trip). I don’t have photography experience, but I don’t want to buy complete crap anyway. I don’t need something very expensive, but something of good quality, for a beginner would be nice. Any suggestions?

    Well, there’s a factor of what you consider “expensive”, as well as how deeply you want to go down the rabbit hole.

    There are “pocket” cameras that are decent; they’re all largely the same at the $200ish price point.

    If you want something slightly better but still of that style (I don’t know that I’d call it a pocket camera, but it’s still relatively small), the Nikon Coolpix P510 has a 24-1000mm zoom built into it, and it’s gotten decent ratings. It’s about $450ish.

    For “real” DSLR cameras, the options get very broad, ranging from around $500 to $10,000. The expense for DSLRs is mostly in the lenses, though, so that’s something else to consider. If you want to “get into photography”, though, investment in a DSLR is probably the direction to start.

  216. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    Apparently, “new computer in 3 to 5 days” means “new computer the next morning.” !!!!

    AFAIK, a lot of the natural/homebirth movement in the US is a reaction to how obstetrics in hospitals was frequently practiced until relatively recently. Women complaining of being talked down to, belittled, scolded for making reasonable requests, having their wishes and plans ignored, etc.

    Personally, I do think the pendulum has swung too far. I do not have a problem with a woman with a low-risk pregnancy delivering at home or in a birth center under the care of a well-trained and certified midwife. What I do have a problem with is the woo-y “natural” bullshit that leads women to get homebirths even when there are known problems, use untrained midwives (or worse, give birth unattended), and all that shit.

  217. says

    Esteleth:

    (or worse, give birth unattended)

    :shudder: The most important reason to have a well-trained medical professional with you is because they’ll recognize when something is wrong. How the fuck are you going to know while giving birth? And what would you do about it? You might have a stroke in the middle of pushing, for fuck’s sake.

  218. Richard Austin says

    Esteleth:

    AFAIK, a lot of the natural/homebirth movement in the US is a reaction to how obstetrics in hospitals was frequently practiced until relatively recently. Women complaining of being talked down to, belittled, scolded for making reasonable requests, having their wishes and plans ignored, etc.

    I can see that. There was a huge movement in the medical industry towards focusing on just the disease and symptoms and, in the process, the person having the disease was treated more as a transport mechanism or petri dish than as a person. I can especially see that being applied to birthing, where society has a problem anyway with viewing pregnant women as something other than just a fetusmobile.

    Luckily, that’s changing back to treating the patient, not the disease. Much of the requirements of the Affordable Care Act are directed to that end.

  219. says

    Thinking about it, I think I know where some of the confusions comes from when using the term “natural childbirth”. 20 years ago, “natural childbirth” meant you didn’t use an epidural (or any drug intervention), but you still gave birth in a hospital with your doctor present– which is how my mom did it. Now, it’s been expanded to mean all of that wooey bullshit, too.

  220. Beatrice says

    Richard Austin,

    I will probably go with “something slightly better but still of that [pocket camera] style”

    I’m not really sure about going into photography, at least not seriously. I’m a bit lost right now and I’m trying to find a hobby to keep me together.

  221. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    The Fetusmobile lost it’s wheel
    And the baby got away

  222. Richard Austin says

    Beatrice:

    I will probably go with “something slightly better but still of that [pocket camera] style”

    I’m not really sure about going into photography, at least not seriously. I’m a bit lost right now and I’m trying to find a hobby to keep me together.

    Photography as a hobby varies a lot depending on what you like to photograph.

    Whether you decide to do that or something else, enjoy your trip :)

  223. says

    Caerie
    Sorry, but Ina Mae Gaskin is one of the worst of the NCB crowd. That woman has NO medical qualification. That woman has lots of dead babies on her hands and rushes to defend whatever unqualified midwife is facing some consequences for their hideous malpractise.
    She is not supportive of women and their choices, she’s only supportive of women who choose to do as she tells them.
    If she and her ilk actually cared about safety for mothers and babies they would fight for training, licensing and insurance coverage of midwives instead insisting that every idiot who cooes over babies should be allowed to give medical care.

  224. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    Right. I was raised on horror stories of OBs who would do stuff like scolding women for complaining about pain. Pain. How dare they distract the OB from his job (i.e. getting the baby out). Or women in full labor getting shamed for not wanting to comb their hair.

    The natural movement originated as a reaction to that sort of shit – which, TBH, still goes on. I heard about an OB recently who posted a notice in his office to the effect that birth plans, the Bradley method, and Lamaze were not tolerated in his birthing suites. Really.

  225. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Right. I was raised on horror stories of OBs who would do stuff like scolding women for complaining about pain. Pain. How dare they distract the OB from his job (i.e. getting the baby out). Or women in full labor getting shamed for not wanting to comb their hair.

    You mean, it is not just the Scientologistes?

  226. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    I don’t have photography experience, but I don’t want to buy complete crap anyway. I don’t need something very expensive, but something of good quality, for a beginner would be nice. Any suggestions?

    I love love love my Panasonic Lumix (DMC-FH25-ish). The Lumix line has a pretty big range of prices and options. Mine cost $130 (on sale from $150), and I’ve blown up a picture from it to an 18×20 (with cropping) and it looks great.

  227. says

    Giliell, I’m not holding up Gaskin as someone people should emulate. I included speaking with her as one of my experiences in researching natural childbirth. I haven’t denied the negative or woo-y elements.

  228. says

    Caerie
    That’s ok. I really can’t stand that woman or her fake-empowerment.

    I heard about an OB recently who posted a notice in his office to the effect that birth plans, the Bradley method, and Lamaze were not tolerated in his birthing suites. Really.

    Hmm, I admit to having some understanding for him. OBs and patients need to be a team. If somebody shows up whom you know will not cooperate and work with you one bit, the whole thing is going to go wahoonie-shaped. Medical professionals are people, too. They’re trying to do their job, and one that involves a lot of dedication and a strong stomach. It’s not healthy for them either to permanently work in a hostile climate and it’s best in that case to go seperate ways.

  229. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Patricia, the person who used the moniker “voxrat” was not the real voxrat. PZ deleted that comment and that e-mail address but declined putting the moniker in the dungeon. This is to avoid confusion with the real voxrat.

  230. drbunsen le savant fous says

    TLC:

    It was a bear about 20 feet away from me.



    O_O

    Cypher, I’m sorry you’re having a shitty day. I hope it improves soon, even if only by ending in deep, restful sleep.

    

Walton: that Border Patrol shit? THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE >_< Patricia, more grog, chop chop!

    otrame, Hattie and Mattie? Were they named after The Ratties?

    chigau:



    re: storm “warning” “watch” “advisory”
    Just look outside.

    

I’m sorry, but no. Reading the skies is not a skill everyone has.


 Please, use storm advisories where they are available to you, as well as whatever salty sailor sky sense you may possess.

  231. says

    Tethys @15 – I love Happy Rhodes!!!!

    The Laughing Coyote @ 73 – I’m sooooo happy you behaved in a (fairly, I imagine) calm way and walked away! Holy moly, that’s scary.

    Last September I was at Brooks Lodge in Alaska with my gf to photograph the bears. We were sitting on the step of our cabin having a smoke when I saw loom over her left shoulder the enormous head of a bear. My jaw literally dropped far enough for my cigarette to drop on the moist grass.

    My gf registered my expression and started scrambling up. You have to go through some bear training to be there so we both knew to move slowly but the bear was maybe fifteen feet behind her and our cabin door was three feet away.

    We were terrible with the bear confrontation and raced into our cabin, agitating the bear who huffed at us and then chewed on our windowsill for about ten minutes.

    I totally respect your cool head, believe me.

    We were better with later confrontations, thank goodness.

    On the subject of dogs: I was terrorized as a child by a bite-y dog named Barney. I have no idea who on the block owned him but for several months I couldn’t leave the house without a hot dog or piece of bologna to divert him.

    I’d wing that slab of pseudo-meat as far as I could and run down the block to school or to my friends’ houses. I’m sure my mom appreciated the expenditure (sarcasm). And to this day, I’m afraid of beagles.

  232. Manu of Deche says

    Sorry for interrupting any ongoing discussion, but I have to get something off my chest.

    [rant]
    I’ve had it. I’m done. Almost every time I listen to the radio, or watch tv, or read something online, it’s either depressing, or infuriating, or (most likely) both. And most of the bad news aren’t created by random bad luck, or genuine ignorance. No, they are caused by the willful ignorance, the sheer stupidity, the egoism, the recklessnes, the oblivious entitlement of a very large part of the human race.
    So, I’m suggesting we find a nice place somewhere (moderate climate preferred), settle down there, and disconnect from the rest of this pathetic mankind. This place, Pharyngula, has become the only place on the net (appart maybe from Wikipedia) that doesn’t want to make me throw up when I read it. Which leads to the assumption that either I’m wrong, and the world (minus Pharyngula) is right, or the other way round. And I’m always right (one of the axioms I operate on. At least until proven wrong).
    Finally, I have a question to those of you who have seen more years pass by than me: When did it actually become cool to be the dimwitted, narcissistic, ignorant, entitled, self-centered piece of shit, who’s not only not ashamed of being that, but who apparently even takes pride in it? Seriously, when did that happen? It can’t be too long ago, since I vividly remember being pointed and laughed at for almost every stupid action or comment I made throughout my childhood. But then again, memories are tricky, so I’d like to collect some datapoints.
    Thank you, now I feel marginally better.
    [/rant]

  233. says

    Hell, my docs have all sorts of rules about what they will not do– no pictures, only one other person in the delivery room with you, etc. I don’t know how they feel about Lamaze and stuff like that (since they know I want an epidural), but I do know that they recommend pain intervention. *shrugs*

    If you are able to, I say switch docs if yours doesn’t “fit”. Why are you tolerating someone that isn’t going to help you the way you want them to?

  234. Patricia, OM says

    Janine – er, OK. Must be one of those things where you had to be there to get it.

    Drbunsen – We’re out of grog?! Did someone leave

    LOUIS

    in here alone last night?

    Dammit.
    *stomps off to the hold*

  235. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Suido:
    Welcome to TET.
    Usually when I compare technology to something its “we can put a man on the moon, but we can’t create a stapler that doesn’t jam?”

  236. says

    Manu of Deche @324 – A Pharungula Island sounds fantastic!

    As far as my anecdatal input: My great grandfathers and grandfathers and father and uncle and living brother are all “dimwitted, narcissistic, ignorant, entitled, self-centered piece of shit”s who take pride in that. Also my grandmothers and my aunt, and my cousins (be they male or female).

    My only redeemable relative is my mother. And she’s still highly woo. (Though I’m working on that! We just had a blow-out about Buddhism and she’s rejected that, finally.)

    My maternal great-grandmother would’ve loved Pharyngula! She was the coolest woman I’ve ever known. Absolutely no bullshit.

  237. cicely says

    When did it actually become cool to be the dimwitted, narcissistic, ignorant, entitled, self-centered piece of shit, who’s not only not ashamed of being that, but who apparently even takes pride in it?

    Sometime around the Reagan years, from where I was sitting.

    When your political party goes out of its way to jump into bed with the most willfully ignorant demographic around (IMO because in their ignorance, they can be very easily manipulated), that’s when you’ve boarded the Stoooopid Train (and never mind the “Bridge Out Ahead” signs).
    -

  238. says

    Thank you all for the condolences. ♥

    We went in to town today, talked with our vet clinic people (who were also very shocked about Esme) and we’ll take the ratlets in on the 6th for their wellness check and sexing verification. Rubin is slated for surgery on Aug. 14th.

    We’re still having a bit of hard time dealing with Esme being gone, but the ratlets are leaving us little time to reflect, to say the least. Havelock has been frantic over Esme being gone and even more protective of the ratlets.

    We brought home KMR from the clinic (kitten milk replacement). The ratlets have zero interest in nursing from a bottle or from fingers, however, they’ll drink it straight out of a dish. We brought home a little playpen for them today, and it’s still a ton of work keeping them contained in it, they get so excited and are no strangers to climbing at this point.

    Amelia, Gytha & Magrat are the most determined little escape artists ever. They are just all kinds of fun to deal with, though. I managed to get their condo cleaned out while Mister ratsat the babes. Saying they are a handful just isn’t saying enough.

  239. Richard Austin says

    Manu of Deche

    When did it actually become cool to be the dimwitted, narcissistic, ignorant, entitled, self-centered piece of shit, who’s not only not ashamed of being that, but who apparently even takes pride in it? Seriously, when did that happen?

    Pratchett labeled it “the Shove”, and it’s existed as long as communities have existed.

    The intelligence of a group is related to the social sensitivity of the group (and the number of women present, though I’d assume this is a related factor to social sensitivity since I also assume that women are, on average, more socially sensitive than men)[1]. Most of the groups we participate in are, at least in “western” society, largely controlled by people (generally men) who have a low social sensitivity. Ergo, these groups have a low group intelligence.

    It’s also reasonable to state that society at large likely has a lower social awareness than many smaller communities: it’s easy to be more socially conscious of those you interact with regularly than with abstract persons far away. As a result, I’d assume that the larger the social community, the lower the collective IQ of the group.

    Combine that with the Shove, and you get a low-intelligence group that works to keep everyone at the same level and, rather than praising uniqueness and individuality, tries to enforce conformity and convention (something that pops up time and again in history as cultures merge).

    I don’t know that that explanation is valid or helps, but it seems plausible to me: the social groups I interact with today are much, much larger and more diverse than the ones I interacted with 20 years ago, largely because the technology to connect those groups didn’t exist back then.

    [1] Woolley A. W., Chabris C. F., Pentland A., Hashmi N., Malone T. W. 2010 Evidence for a collective intelligence factor in the performance of human groups. Science 330, 686–688. (doi:10.1126/science.1193147)

  240. says

    Caine:

    We brought home KMR from the clinic (kitten milk replacement). The ratlets have zero interest in nursing from a bottle or from fingers, however, they’ll drink it straight out of a dish.

    Very good to hear that they’re eating. Poor little ratlets. Hopefully they’ll get fat and sassy and be just fine.

  241. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Giliell:

    Birth is fucking fraught with danger and nowhere near a “perfect system”.

    If it wasn’t for that woman eating the apple/pomegranate…

    ****
    Esteleth:
    I can’t tell if you’re happy about the computer arriving so soon or not :)

    ****

    Richard:
    If you don’t mind my asking, are you a tech guru? You have this wealth of information that seems at your fingertips (and not in the “I just looked it up on the net” kinda way).
    ~
    oh, and I love ‘fetusmobile

    ****
    Natural childbirth-
    I don’t know much about childbirth (probably never will, at least not any kind of firsthand knowledge), but it seems to me that the advances in science have made labor less deadly for women. So much so that if a woman wants to have a ‘natural childbirth’, they should at least be fully informed of the risks. Too often though, people jump on the woo bandwagon and think ‘natural=safe/risk free’.
    ~
    douchecopter is pretty cool, IMO.

    ****
    Manu of deche:
    You came to the right place to rant and spend time amongst reasonable human beings. People disagree here for certain, but you’re not going to find misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, sexism (or really, any ‘-ism’) prevalent here. If you see it, it’s likely a drive-by from Slimepit, Inc.
    Welcome.

  242. says

    Manu of Deche @324 – Slightly OT (it isn’t about news but it is about TV and being disgusted by it), Russia has recently gotten TLC. Granted I’ve not lived in America for three years but I am freaking out on the programs!
    .
    “I’m pregnant and giving birth to a dwarf” (okay, the couple was adorable but WTF?). “I’m paralyzed and pregnant”. “Beverly Hills Bride” (can anything be more boring?). “Mafia wives.” “Dating in the Dark.” “Kate + 8.”
    .

    Unfortunately, it’s one of the only English language channels here so I sometimes feel lonely and need American TV (to hear spoken English*) but really?
    .
    I made the mistake of having it on one day while I was working and my gf saw it and now she shows it to all our friends as an example of how idiotic Americans are. Despite my defecting (effectively), I still care deeply about America. I do not want people to think of Americans as idiots (although, my family…).
    .
    Not to say Russian TV is much better, honestly. They’re embracing the American model and have reality TV shows and “shock” shows.
    .
    When I was a kid, freak shows were normal at the State Fair (in Arizona). I saw the Fat Lady (eating Mac-n-cheese so I could never eat Mac-n-cheese again–hey, I was very impressionable). I saw two-headed cows (dead) and the “spider woman” and the living torso (poor woman) and the smallest man in the world (who kept saying, “FUCK YOOOUUU!” to us) but then freak shows were shut down because they weren’t decent. But they were never shut down; they just moved elsewhere.
    .
    What’s my point?
    .
    My point is I’m highly disappointed in humankind right now.
    Especially after following the whole “Rationalia isn’t” post. Which made me laugh because in my browser it read as “Rationalia isn’t: Pharyngula”. No shit.
    .
    *I do hear spoken English from my gf but her English is very poor. My Russian is better. I also hear quite nice English from my students but they’re usually business students and, while they’re quite entertaining, we’re still studying capitalist business. Not exactly fun times.

  243. Patricia, OM says

    Caine – I know nothing about ratlets. Are these babies eyes open? Had them envisioned as squirming little tortellini’s for some reason. O.o

    You’re wise to be concerned about the surviving partner. Sadly, my female Bulldog didn’t survive her male pal by six months, and he was two years older than she was. *sniff*

  244. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Krasnaya:

    A Pharungula Island sounds fantastic!

    As a vacation island, sure.
    Permanent place to live? Not for me.
    I don’t want to be forced to go live somewhere else. It feels too much like the bad guys won (or comments like “if you don’t like it here, move”). My home is here, and it would be a much better place for *all* involved if peoples’ attitudes shifted and evolved in a progressive manner. All that is to say I’d rather help work on changing things here in meatspace so that no one has to move, but still have a place to go when I need to take a breather.

    ~
    What made your mother reject Buddhism?

    ****

    Caine:
    I wish there were some way to be of assistance IRL. It seems you and the Mister have your hands full.

  245. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Patricia:

    Sadly, my female Bulldog didn’t survive her male pal by six months, and he was two years older than she was. *sniff*

    I’m sorry to hear that.
    Is this (death of one soon after the death of the other) common among pair bonded animals?

  246. Richard Austin says

    Tony:

    If you don’t mind my asking, are you a tech guru? You have this wealth of information that seems at your fingertips (and not in the “I just looked it up on the net” kinda way).

    I’ve been using computers for 30 years, and programing for 29. Since I’m 35, you can see it was something I grew up with :)

    More practically, I’m a trained MS-SQL database admin and .NET developer who spends most of his time working as a business and systems analyst helping people figure out easier ways to do what they want to do (or, in some cases, ways of doing it at all).

    So, I suppose for certain values of “tech guru”, I’d have to answer “yes”. Most of being a “tech guru”, though, is knowing what to look up and how to look it up properly.

    oh, and I love ‘fetusmobile

    *bow*

  247. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

    Sometime around the Reagan years, from where I was sitting.

    http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly040609a.htm

    «Even at age twelve I could tell that Jimmy Carter was an honest man trying to address complicated issues and Ronald Reagan was a brilcreemed salesman telling people what they wanted to hear. I secretly wept on the stairs the night he was elected President, because I understood that the kind of shitheads I had to listen to in the cafeteria grew up to become voters, and won. I spent the eight years he was in office living in one of those science-fiction movies where everyone is taken over by aliens—I was appalled by how stupid and mean-spirited and repulsive the world was becoming while everyone else in America seemed to agree that things were finally exactly as they should be.»

  248. dianne says

    Re fetusmobile: During late pregnancy, somehow the thing that made the greatest impression on me was the increased urinary output. So I thought of myself as a fetus dialysis membrane for a couple of months.

  249. Patricia, OM says

    Tony – I don’t have any hard scientific evidence about deaths in pair bonded animals, but 13 years experiance working at a veterinary hospital taught me that animals can and do grieve to such an extent that the owners become distressed enough to pay for medical help.

    So honestly, I don’t know, and thats a good question.

  250. says

    I saw a doc about Vito Russo on the TV last night, and there was a part where they showed Reagan announcing his refusal to support the “immorality” of the gay community, and I just felt all my hatred and rage of that man come rushing back. He was the personification of the banality of evil.

    Then they cut from him to Jesse Helms denouncing gays. I coulda had a heart attack from all the fury boiling up in me.

  251. dianne says

    ix: I was about the same age during the Reagan years. I spent most of them expecting a nuclear war at any moment. Looking back on it, I can’t help but wonder what we (i.e. the citizens of the US) were thinking, electing a man who many people believed was crazy enough to launch a nuclear war. We feared nuclear war not because we thought the Soviet leader was crazy enough to start one but because we thought our own elected leader was crazy enough to do same. Why? Why would anyone vote for such a man?

  252. Pteryxx says

    yeah, I’d live on Horde Island and help do the maintenance and guard work to keep it a safe space, both for residents and folks who just need to recover their spirits. That’s what one of the senses of ‘home’ is supposed to mean, right? Somewhere you can go that actually is safe and restorative, instead of sapping you.

    Also, it needs to have rats. Lots and lots of rats.

    *headshake* The name-and-shame thread got to me. Self-care time.

  253. dianne says

    we’re gonna pee whe we get there!

    And afterwards little darkfetus will go pee, pee, pee all the way home.

  254. says

    I was going to try to write some sort of rational response to neuzelaar in the name-and-shame thread, but I realized it was pointless and I just got to the point of flailing monkey rage.

    Fuck. Kudos to those who can put up with that shit.

  255. says

    Stuck in my craw:

    So last night my gf and I were out bowling. She’d never bowled in her life before she met me but I’d been in a league for many years in America before I met her so she wanted to try it.

    Every other time we go bowling, some man has to come up to ME and suggest he can teach me how to bowl better. This is highly irritating as I only want to enjoy the night out with my gf. She works 16 hours a day most days so my time with her is precious.

    At first, I let it slide. Okay, I’m in a new country. I don’t get it. Maybe it’s not misogyny.

    After reading Pharyngula I understood it’s EXACTLY the bullshit I got in America! I’m a lesbian out to eat a romantic dinner with my gf (in San Francisco, where you’d think they’d be cooler) and BAM! Some clueless dude butts in. That happened so many times, twice on Valentine’s Day. So two women alone is a signal for “WE WANT A MAN”?!

    Last week, we were bowling and some very stinky man (Russian men! I am about to start carrying trial-sized deodorants for you in the summer months because you reek) came up to ME, again.

    “I can help you bowl.”

    “Dude, I’m bowling a 178 average and you’re bowling a 134. How can you help me?”

    “Well, it’s like billiards.”

    “Shut UP! Nuh-uh! It’s like all geometrical and junk? Huh? Wow! You don’t say. Hey, by the way, those four men bowling next to us are bowling worse than you. Why don’t you go help them?”

    He slinked away but stayed behind us all night and applauded me and watched us all night which was really disconcerting.

    Last night, another man came up to us and asked if he could join us. My gf said, “This is our last game. I’m sorry.”

    I asked her why she didn’t just tell him “Пошёл на хуй”. Russians don’t generally hide from being perfectly upfront. (Okay, it is one of the worst things you can say so hyperbole, maybe.)

    He also hung out behind us for the next two hours and slow-clapped. I don’t really like bowling with an audience, especially not one that keeps coming up saying, “I thought you were done playing? What about me?”

    Why can’t my gf tell him to fuck off? I told him to fuck off but he didn’t understand English.

    As expected, he was in the parking lot when we left but he was just wounded rather than violent (“wounded” by not being able to join OUR private night out).

    Men can be quite menacing when they perceive they’ve been rejected.

    And women can, too. Most of my scary meatspace stalkers were women but they never threatened with guns and physical assault (which did not happen recently but has in my past, to be perfectly clear).

    In other words, get your own friends. I guess. Or bowl by yourself. So many people do it and it’s no crime.

  256. Beatrice says

    Caerie,

    I’m arguing with my computer screen thanks to neuzelaar. I mean, it’s not the first time I’m talking to myself the computer, but it’s not exactly good for my already questionable mental state.

    Let me join you now in flailing monkey rage.

  257. thunk's grog-powered spaceship says

    *idea*

    Given the explosive properties of aged grog, it would make a very high-Isp rocket fuel. This could open SSTO transport, enabling a colony on the Moon or Mars. Pharyngula Island it is! :p

    *fills XR2 with leftover grog*

  258. says

    The only education I followed through to the finish after our high school equivalent was in the army, but that might finally be useful in guarding the shores of Horde Island.

    By your command, mistress Patricia. *kneels on one knee and bows*

  259. says

    Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] @338 –

    Well, I travel all the time so if I found some perfect place to call home that would be great! (I love Russia but not completely.)

    I’m frankly a bit tired of fighting. I’ve been arrested for being in gay parades and been beaten up too many times and I would like to just settle down somewhere with like-minded people.

    It wouldn’t be forced for me. It would be a delightful rest.

    As far as my mom and buddhism, I just showed their misogyny. Easy enough. She had no idea because it’s so hidden.

  260. dianne says

    Audley: Does your work offer maternity leave? Some policies start up to 6 weeks before the birth and might be worth checking out if you’re sick of your job and exhausted from late pregnancy.

    Krasnaya: Yuck. My sympathies. Of course, if you confronted him or were even mildly rude he’d be all over you for getting upset over a “friendly” gesture. I’m not sure why men think this sort of thing is a good idea. Even as a basically heterosexual person, if I’m out with a female friend the last thing I want is some guy mixing up in our time together. I’d imagine it would be even worse when you’re with your partner.

  261. Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff says

    Hereby announcing my intention to stop posting in the sheltering-rapists-from-their-victims thread.

  262. cicely says

    ixchel @341: Yep. That’s pretty much the way I remember it, too. I was in my early twenties, rather than 12, but…yeah. We called him “the acting president”, because we realised that he was playing a role, for which he was being paid.

    Then, a handfull of years ago (2006? Somewhen around that.), I started seeing his smirking face on tee shirts. I couldn’t believe my eyes. And the kids wearing them…they had no clue.
    -

  263. says

    Krasnaya
    Urgh, that sucks.
    Perk of being heterosexual: If you’re out with your owner husband/bf they mostly leave you alone.

    Cipher
    Take all the break you need. You’re doing great work in all those threads and I can only imagine how hard it must be. It grinds me down and I’m not a survivor.

    *sigh*
    I’m still having troubles getting things done. I’ve been procrastinating writing some important emails to the people in college. I’m doing it now.

  264. thunk, who claims europa in the name of Pharyngula says

    Krasnaya: Ouch. Sorry for men who keep butting in.

  265. says

    dianne @358 – Thank you. I always think it’s worse in Russia but it’s only because I didn’t recognize it as much (many thanks to Pharyngula) in America.

    Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg @ 361 – Thank you, too. Yes, if we’re bowling with my gf’s nephews, we’re never bothered. Our owners are clearly there with us. ;)

    Most of my students are middle-aged men and they’re very sweet to me but it may be because most of them are married (?) or the power dynamic. Anyway, my work and my leisure in Russia are vastly different.

  266. Pteryxx says

    Yes, if we’re bowling with my gf’s nephews, we’re never bothered. Our owners are clearly there with us. ;)

    …now I have visions of some sort of inflatable decoy man-partner that women can put up as a douchebag-repellant.

  267. Pteryxx says

    …better term for hovering menz: douchecopter. (Thank you, whoever coined that)

  268. thunk, who claims europa in the name of Pharyngula says

    Cipher:

    I’m also severely ground down.

    Ah…

    Have work to do also.

  269. Manu of Deche says

    @Krasnaya Koshka (329)
    I suspected that much, I mean the timespan involved. It’s not as bad with my family (about 50/50 distribution).

    @cicely (330)
    Well, the US of A certainly was / still is our “Bigger Brother” (I live in Germany), yet politicians are rather dull, spineless, opportunistic Gestalten. At least over here, I can’t pin it on the politicians. I’m thinking more of ‘the media’, especially TV and pop music, which gets stupider by the week.

    @Richard Austin (333)
    That actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the insight and the link

    @Tony the Parkour Kat (335)
    Thanks for the welcoming words.

    @Krasnaya Koshka (336)
    While I’m not in the exact same situation, I usually try to consume only high-quality media from the UK and the US (books, movies, newspapers). Without the internet, I’d be fucked.

    @Pteryxx (347)

    That’s what one of the senses of ‘home’ is supposed to mean, right? Somewhere you can go that actually is safe and restorative, instead of sapping you.

    This. So much this. *wipes a tear from his eyes*

    @Krasnaya Koshka (353)
    But, but, but… lesbians!!!!one1elebenty! Every mans dream. How could you be so cruel and not let that poor man join in on all the fun. Snark aside, you are now officially in my Book of Awesome™. Strangely enough the names in it read like typical thread on Pharyngula…

    @everyone that I’ve missed: Sorry!

    @myself: Must remember–holy magic jew on a stick, TET is moving very fast, try harder to keep up!

  270. Louis says

    Patricia,

    I will accept and enjoy many forms of abuse, disrespect, abuse, banter and indeed, abuse, but I will not tolerate my glorious name being rendered in Comic Sans.

    That is a step too far.

    Louis

  271. says

    Pteryxx @364 – I’m fairly butch now so maybe I should don a fake mustache?

    thunk, who claims europa in the name of Pharyngula @ 362 – The vast majority of men I know are lovely. Creepsters will always be creepsters. It’s been the the same my whole life. Though I’d love to live without the creepsters. :) Maybe that will happen for my young nieces.

    Manu of Deche Yeah, I spend most of free time reading or playing computer games. (I get jobs from doing that! I’m a bit in demand right now, translating Russian into American English so this is AWESOME!!!!! Though translating Russian idioms into English can be horrible. )

    You are also now in my book of Awesome Elebenty, Manu!

    Yes, I agree. I love so many people here. Too many to name, actually. (I just tried to and knew I’d neglect someone I thought was fantastic.)

  272. Nightjar says

    So, I was out in the garden. And there was a bee.

    And there was a tiny flower spider on a flower.

    And the bee landed on that flower.

    And I rushed inside to grab my camera.

    And now this is my desktop background. I am happy.

  273. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    douchecopter

    For what ever reason, this was triggered in my head.

    Up, up and away,
    In my beautiful,
    My beautiful doucheballoon.

    My brain scares me.

  274. says

    Krasnaya
    Seems like our cultures aren’t actually that different from countries like Pakistan where women need a man, even a 5yo boy to go out. Sure we’re allowed to leave the house alone, but it seems like that impliesconsent to being hit on 24/7
    Add a guy and we’re safe.
    BTW, Giliell is just enough

    ++++
    Wish me luck, I’m trying a new hair-colour.

  275. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Does anyone else need a drink and hot shower after reading the Its odd how culture shelters some who should be shamed thread?
    By Hecate, some of those idiots need to go live in Antarctica. Far away from the rest of humanity.

  276. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Nightjar: How does such a small spider eat such large prey without rupturing itself?

  277. cm's changeable moniker says

    TLC:

    It was a bear about 20 feet away from me.



    Many years ago, I was somewhat drunkenly wandering through Mammoth, CA at about 2am, when I saw a really big dog sitting under a streetlight. “Wow, that’s a big dog”, I thought as I walked towards it … and then I had a realisation and stopped maybe 30 feet away.

    So I stood there for a bit, and the brown bear sat there for a bit, and then it wandered off in search of someone’s garbage, and I set off on the 6-mile walk back to my tent.

    /meander

    (If the Sb “Leviticus” post ever gets its comments back, it was the same camping trip.)

  278. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Tony, I am looking at it this way; so far, it is only two trolls.

    But they are very unpleasant.

  279. says

    Giliell – Exactly.

    I’m also trying a new hair color. My own.

    My ex-gf (who was also Russian, but in California) was all about how I looked. I had to be fit and I had to look young. Dye your hair black!

    I’ve gained 10 kgs since being in Russia (the food here is SOOOOO good) and my current gf has asked me to “go natural” meaning let my hair go grey again.

    The growing out period is horrible!

    I had a new student yesterday morning who was very fashion-conscious so I felt a bit dumpy with my half-black half-natural grey hair but she enlisted on with me for six months!

    Anyway, I wish you luck with your new hair color! I know how difficult this change is.

  280. says

    There may be progress on the Sb comments front. I see the number of comments on the ‘needs approval’ list steadily growing — it’s up around 200,000 now. I’m hoping they’ll be brought in, then all will get approved in one sweep…if I have to do it manually I will balk.

  281. Nightjar says

    Hee hee, thanks Pteryxx!

    Tony,

    Nightjar: How does such a small spider eat such large prey without rupturing itself?

    Thy inject venom to kill it, hold it, and suck it dry.

    I think some spiders also inject digestive enzymes into their prey to liquefy their tissues and then suck, but I don’t know if that’s the case with this spider in particular.

  282. Pteryxx says

    TLC: Spiders drink the juice out, y’know? Maybe it’ll discard the rest, or maybe ambush spiders have a way to hoard or guard their leftovers for later, like web spiders sometimes hoard theirs.

    Also I forgot to say I’m glad you’re back. (If I said it and forgot I said it, too darn bad.)

  283. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Nightjar: I know that part. It’s just such a small spider and such a huge prey, how does it physically handle digesting that much food? Or do they cling to it and ‘feed’ for a few days?

  284. Pteryxx says

    also, spiders’ esophagi go THROUGH their brains. They can’t ingest anything but liquid or they’d pith themselves. (Frick, evolution, WHYYYY must you give me nightmares…)

  285. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    TLC, you are assuming that the spider feeds on it in just one sitting.

  286. Pteryxx says

    well… how much of the inside of a fly is actually edible material? Some of it’s air passages, some’s connective tissue… once the empty shell’s dumped, how much less does it weigh, I wonder.

    *imagines teeny-tiny metabolism cages for spiders*

  287. says

    Janine @373 – I have to ask–have you worked in record stores?

    I worked in record stores for 13 years in my youth (1986 – 1999) and I have never heard of anyone, other than record store nerds, that know the amount of random songs you do.

    Not jut random, actually, but the ones you usually bring up.

    Of course, you don’t have to answer.

    Just curious.

  288. Pteryxx says

    There’s a spider expert in a local biology department. I wonder if he’s amenable to random phone calls? …

  289. Nightjar says

    There may be progress on the Sb comments front.

    That is great news. I was wondering about it on TZT, it’s taking so long!

    ***

    It’s just such a small spider and such a huge prey, how does it physically handle digesting that much food? Or do they cling to it and ‘feed’ for a few days?

    Oh, that I don’t know. I’m definitely not a spider expert.

    also, spiders’ esophagi go THROUGH their brains.

    Wow. I didn’t know that. Doesn’t sound intelligently designed to me.

  290. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Apologies but ‘rupt. I’ve been trying to write this thing in my head for weeks and it’s finally done. A ballad in homage to the Great Sexism Wars.

    Warning 1: Long, and kinda dirty

    Warning 2: Set to the tune of Total Eclipse of the Heart

    Verse One
    ♫What the fuck. . .
    Once upon a time I was the king of the castle on the top of every pile

    What the fuck. . .
    Once upon a time I could say shit about boobiez and they’d just sit there and giggle and smile

    What the fuck
    Once upon a time there were no Skepchicks or Feminazis lurking
    with a knife to my balls

    What the fuck
    Once upon a time I could play grab ass with co-eds and not get
    kicked out of residence halls

    Double down, Nice Guy
    Once upon a time I was the bomb

    Double down, DouchePie
    Bitches now be tellin’ me I’m wrong

    Chorus
    ♫I don’t think I heard that right
    And I think you’re on your menses
    So just lay back and squeeze me tight
    And my peen’ll restore your senses

    Cuz it’s only what’s normal and right,
    The dick can never be wrong. . .
    together we can take it till the end of my line
    You can maybe have a climax if you guarantee mine

    I’m just about to go, I’m right up on the edge
    Now take those purty fingers stick ‘em into my wedge

    You really put out tonight!
    That pussy’s really out of sight
    Now kindly go shut off the light.

    Once upon a time I had snizz on demand
    Now you say I ruin the mood
    There’s nothing I can do, a total eclipse of the Dood.

    Once upon time I never had to eat snatch
    Now you say I’m boorish and rude
    Nothing I can say, a total eclipse of the Dood.

    Verse Two
    ♫What the fuck. . .
    Once upon a time I was the king of the conference and the skeptics always clapped

    What the fuck. . .
    Once upon a time I could investigate Nessie and no atheists would
    spout off their crap

    What the fuck. . .
    Once upon a time you just invited your speakers with no worries
    that the line-up was fair

    What the fuck. . . .
    Once upon a time I could go drink at the Del Mar without running
    into Feminist Hair

    Double down, Nice Guy
    Ladies like to shop cuz evo-psych

    Double Down, Douche Pie
    If you don’t believe me you’re a dyke!

    Chorus
    ♫Used to talk about the spooks
    That’s how we knew we all were Skeptics
    In the days of bending spoons
    Before the fems got all dyspeptic

    We could hoggle our brains out all night
    Cuz we could never be wrong. . .
    You could count on Penn and Teller being douchebags all night
    Reminisce on Uri Geller ’til the morning’s first light

    Rebecca Watson’s a blight!
    And Amy with her stoneware bling
    The reasons we can’t have nice things.. .

    Once upon a time ladies stayed in their place
    You could have a cup of coffee or two
    Nothing I can do, a total eclipse of the Doodz

    Once upon a time it was Grothe and Tam
    The ladies just provided the boobz
    Nothing I can say, a total eclipse of the Doodz.

    A total eclipse of the Doodz.

    Double down, Nice Guy
    Double down, Doo-ouche Pie. . .

  291. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    Have I mentioned before that I love you Josh? Because I LOVE YOU.

  292. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Thanks Pteryxx, but I never really left- just got massively distracted by PET on facebook.

  293. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Krasnaya Koshka, I spent a lot of time in record stores but I never worked in one. And I went to a lot of concerts. I am surprised my ears are not in worse shape, too much time spent next to amps.The Lounge Ax was a favorite spot. It was closed down twelve years ago and, dammit, I still miss it. The musicians loved the place because the owners actually paid and would feed them to.

    But I was a college radio DJ. 1984-1988. As you can guess, I loved it. And still miss it.

    (I had a couple of links but for some reason, they were not coming through.)

  294. says

    Once upon a time it was Grothe and Tam
    The ladies just provided the boobz
    Nothing I can say, a total eclipse of the Doodz.

    A total eclipse of the Doodz.

    Double down, Nice Guy
    Double down, Doo-ouche Pie. . .

    I’m going to be singing this all day and I don’t even mind.

  295. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Total Eclipse of the Heart?

    *covers ears and runs out of the room*

  296. Pteryxx says

    TLC: Oh sure, but I’m not ON facebook, therefore YOU TOTALLY VANISHED FROM THE FACE OF THE PLANET bud. *gives hairy fluffy eyeball*

  297. says

    Because it’s now July 25th (her birthday) and I’ve now finally found THE song online. For the first time I can celebrate Kay Fox’s birthday properly. I don’t want her to ever be forgotten.

    When I was 19 years old I fell deeply in love with a drag queen. She performed at Shamu’s in Phoenix and I thought she was the most beautiful woman in the world. She was so elegant and so other-worldly. So I was at Shamu’s every night I possibly could be (whilst working a minimum wage job).

    She was actually a trans woman and not a drag queen and she invited me to her house many times and we played board games. Monopoly, Clue, she loved them as did I. Talk about heaven! She told me about her life as a young black boy in Kentucky and how much that sucked, especially since she was really a girl.

    When she was in financial trouble, she moved to my home and I took care of her. Eventually, she moved back home to LOW-ville, Kentucky (as she said it) and was pushed off the stage. She died from a rupture of one of her breast implants in 1986 (her mom told me this, so I believe it).

    For selfish reasons, I wish she’d been a lesbian but she was straight.

    Anyway, she always sang songs from Dream Girls (which I loved) but ended her shows with this song. Kay, I’ll never forget you and I will always you.

  298. says

    Okay, I’m going to walk away from the computer and punch a wall a few times or something. I knew I should have listened to my instincts on the Zehnder and Frey thread.

  299. Pteryxx says

    *looks* …Oh gack. I didn’t want to be right about taking a break *before it got worse*.

  300. Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain says

    Understandable, Caerie; the latest troll is leaving a slime trail.

  301. says

    Janine @394 – I’m very impressed with your musical knowledge! My FB is full of my ex-record store (new and used–used-stores were better) co-horts so we bombard each other with music videos and the stories behind our hearings of them all the time.

    They bring up many of the same tunes as you do.

    I have friends working in radio stations in Germany and Northern Calfornia that ask me for “set” material and you’ve often jogged my memory.

    Thank you.

  302. says

    Giliell @405 – I know what you mean! It was very hard to find dye to cover grey in Russia, too. That’s one of the biggest reasons I gave up.

    Most old ladies in Russia (and in Finland–I know because I lived there for nearly six months) dye their hair bright red. It’s the only color that’ll stick.

    Am I not helping? I’m not helping. Sorry.

  303. Beatrice says

    It’s odd how culture shelters some who should be shamed has just turned into something beyond vile.

    I don’t even… no words.

  304. says

    Janine: Fucking Dyke Of Rage Mountain @ 394 – Lounge Ax – I’ve never heard of it though, no surprise, I’ve only been in Chicago a few times.

    I have a friend who owned a huge gay bar there (in Chicago) but now I can’t remember what it was called. Maybe something Egyptian?

    I’ll ask her.

  305. Matt Penfold says

    I have that on my (vinyl) Now That’s What I Call Music (before they had numbers).

    I had the original album by Bonnie Tyler, who grew up not far from where I live now as it happens.

  306. cm's changeable moniker says

    (I’m wondering if I should scan the cover and make it my Gravatar.)

    :-)

  307. thunk, who claims europa in the name of Pharyngula says

    Koshka:

    (why did I peel away the russian letters from my keyboard)

    *rough transliteration*

    Spokoyny nochy.

  308. birgerjohansson says

    “They inject venom to kill it, hold it, and suck it dry.”

    Sounds like the political branch of the tax evaders who stuffed more than 20,000 billion dollars into overseas tax havens.
    — —- —- —-
    “The Horde Island”

    IknowIknowIknow! Try Gotland! Or some of the Danish isles!

    You don’t have to live there forever, just stay there a few weeks to decompress.
    — —- —–
    Ronald Reagan was not as popular here in Europe.
    A Swedish PR company for an American brand of peanuts capitalised on that, setting up huge posters with Ronald Reagan, saying “The really big nuts come from America!”

  309. Matt Penfold says

    And actually, I am pretty sure I had the first ever “Now That’s What I Call Music” as well.

  310. says

    I just made a Kool-Aid pie, to take over to my mother tonight.

    It’s a graham cracker crust, mixed berry Kool-Aid, a can of condensed milk and a cup of whipping cream, with all the ingredients whipped up into fluff and then frozen. No extra sugar, because the condensed milk adds more than enough sweetness.

    I don’t think I’ll be able to eat any, but I’m sure she’ll enjoy it. It’s blue and looks somewhat unearthly.

  311. Matt Penfold says

    Ronald Reagan was not as popular here in Europe.
    A Swedish PR company for an American brand of peanuts capitalised on that, setting up huge posters with Ronald Reagan, saying “The really big nuts come from America!”

    Spitting Image had a running segment entitled “The President’s Brain is Missing.”

    It has scenes such as an aide waking Reagan, and popping a brain in.

  312. Ogvorbis says

    Threadrupt.

    The baby back ribs were really good. I slow roasted them on the grill for four hours after rubbing it with a black pepper seasoning rub (actually meant for steak) and then doing a final bit of high temperature grilling with some Kansas City BBQ sauce. Possibly the best ribs I’ve ever made. And they were falling-off-the-bones tender. For a side dish, fresh goat cheese raviolis with sweet red peppers, red onions, and garlic sauteed in olive oil.

    And I see that, not only are the rationalia irrationalists continuing, but their philosophical brethren have shown up on the ‘culture shelters the offender’ post.

    Sigh.

    Do I really want to go there and participate?

  313. Pteryxx says

    Ogvorbis: you don’t have to. I got back in and by the time I’d typed a post, five other people had already countered the asswipe. ;>

    (and if you feel you absolutely MUST get into it… IMHO, that’s a good reason to consider giving oneself a break.)

  314. says

    Ogvorbis:

    For a side dish, fresh goat cheese raviolis with sweet red peppers, red onions, and garlic sauteed in olive oil.

    Oh, that sounds delicious. Did you make the ravioli yourself?

    Do I really want to go there and participate?

    Depends on how strong your stomach is.

  315. Ogvorbis says

    Oh, that sounds delicious. Did you make the ravioli yourself?

    No. Wegmans. But the cheese was wrapped in herbed pasta so I have a good excuse.

    Do I really want to go there and participate?

    Depends on how strong your stomach is.

    Too late.

    Sexual assault trivializes rape? What the fuck is wrong with these people?

  316. says

    dianne:

    Does your work offer maternity leave? Some policies start up to 6 weeks before the birth and might be worth checking out if you’re sick of your job and exhausted from late pregnancy.

    *sigh* I wish. My work place offers no maternity leave and New York will only pay for 6 weeks of disability.

    However, I still plan to quit mid-October. Mr Darkheart and I have gone through our budget and realized that I can quit and work only part time after DarkFetus is born and we’ll be okay. (There’s really no point going back to work wither way– I only earn enough to cover daycare, so I might as well do what I want to do, which is stay home with the baby.)

  317. Patricia, OM says

    Sorry to drop off – had to go get therapied. Or something.

    LOUIS that is as close to Drunken Sans as I could imagine. And don’t think I can’t see what you’re doing under that blanket in the corner.

    2nd the standing O for Josh!

  318. says

    “Flailing rage-monkey.”
    Yes. That’s how I feel about most of the feminism threads, and why I’m so feckin’ crap at posting in them, and so in awe of the people who can do it.

    About natural birth: if I understand the terminology right, the total whackaloon version is known as “Free Birth”. “Natural” tends to mean no drugs, and can happen in a birthing centre or a hospital as well as a home. “Home Births” are usually intended to be natural births, and many of them are still quite sensible, with properly trained registered nurse-midwives, but it could be anything.

  319. Patricia, OM says

    Oggie – Have you ever made sweet red bell pepper sauce? I had some for the first time ever last month at a resturant in Lincoln City, Oregon. It was served over crabcakes and scallops, with a side of the best garlic mashed potatoes I’ve ever eaten.

    Watched a couple of YouTube vids on how to make it when I got home, and bingo – it’s easy and amazingly good.

  320. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    had to go get therapied.

    That was the Redhead this morning. Where’s my therapy while I’m waiting for the Redhead to complete her nap (up most of the second night before due to leg cramps)? *grabs tankard of grog, AAAHHHH*

  321. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    There’s a woot-off going on right now in multiple categories! Should you follow that sort of thing.

  322. Patricia, OM says

    How’s she doing Nerd, if you don’t mind me asking?

    My poor aunty can barely walk with a walker, and can’t get her legs into bed, so she is sleeping in a recliner. The family was able to get a motorized bed for her, but even that isn’t working.

    Thank you Ever Loving Gawd for inventing strokes.
    /sarcasm

  323. says

    Audley:

    I’m sad that Esme is gone, but it sounds like things are going to be okay (if not tough on you). More *luv* to you and the ratties.

    Thank you. ♥ The ratlets are doing well. Running us ragged, but doing well. I don’t know how in the hell Esme managed.

    Caerie:

    Very good to hear that they’re eating. Poor little ratlets. Hopefully they’ll get fat and sassy and be just fine.

    Oh, they’re already fat and sassy! :laughs: Active, happy babies altogether.

    Patricia:

    I know nothing about ratlets. Are these babies eyes open? Had them envisioned as squirming little tortellini’s for some reason. O.o

    They’re born naked and blind and look distinctly unbaked. Esme’s ratlets are 24 days old today and they are of weaning age at 5 weeks, so we got lucky on that front. From what I understand, it’s very difficult to keep younger ratlets alive and healthy.

    You’re wise to be concerned about the surviving partner. Sadly, my female Bulldog didn’t survive her male pal by six months, and he was two years older than she was. *sniff*

    Oh, I’m so sorry. Like us, Havelock has the ratlets keeping him occupied. He loves his kids and it shows.

    Tony:

    I wish there were some way to be of assistance IRL. It seems you and the Mister have your hands full.

    Thank you so much. We do have our hands full, but there’s a lot of joy in it, despite missing Esme so much.

    Here’s a couple of shots I took today, they are all I could get, the ratlets are a full time job for two people when they’re in their playpen:

    Cole, Agnes, Oliver & Gytha go for the great escape and Vasco and Amelia going for the escape.

  324. says

    Cole, Agnes, Oliver & Gytha go for the great escape and Vasco and Amelia going for the escape.

    eeeeeeeehoodedagoutis

    They are indeed looking happy and healthy!

  325. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    How’s she doing Nerd, if you don’t mind me asking?

    About as well as can be expected. The main problem is that her left arm is still “uncooperative”. She can walk some with a hemiwalker, can get herself transferred from bed to wheelchair to commode and to hemiwalker. The lack of arm control means she can’t raise and lower garments on her own (the arm used to steady herself is the same one to raise/lower the garments), so some assistance in that area is still required for commode usage. So, I’m up a couple of times at night (hey, I’m up that often without her) to assist, and a couple of times during the day I can come home (work is 5 minutes one-way away) and assist. Otherwise, she does what she can with one arm. Including chowing down on the food. The cramps were the first time since she has been home.

  326. Ogvorbis says

    Shit. Double shit.

    This might be triggering for others. I am triggered big time.

    I just read this (Plus, these to monsters took PICTURES of violating her. In this age of the Internet and digital media it’s likely those pictures will outlive HER.) over on the thread about protecting the rapist. I should not have been over there.

    Deep breaths.

    Fuck. Flashbacks. I am safe. I am an adult. Those fucking photos will outlive me.

    Taking a break. Sorry. I did this one to myself.

  327. Pteryxx says

    Caine: y’all *literally* have your hands full! The ratlets just pour uphill. (Thank you so much for the pics. Sorely needed today.)

  328. Pteryxx says

    *headdesk* frick Ogvorbis, please don’t apologize to us. I feel like absolute scum for not remembering to warn you that pictures were involved over there. It’s not your fault that you have triggers.

  329. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Taking a break. Sorry. I did this one to myself.

    Here’s some nine-day-old grog on the house. Happy no dreams…

  330. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    Og – hugs or a big fence for personal space, whichever you need right now. And a big cup of tea.

  331. thunk, who claims europa in the name of Pharyngula says

    Here’s some nine-day-old grog

    Sounds like an explosion hazard, Nerd

  332. thunk, who claims europa in the name of Pharyngula says

    Oh, and og;

    Have a rest here. And some fragrant stuff. And hugs.

  333. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Sounds like an explosion hazard, Nerd

    *checks SOP*
    As safe as medium molecule azides with proper handling.

    O.o fuck, oh fuck, why did I go read that thread?…

    Here’s some swill that looks like sangria, and a dozen pullets.

  334. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    You guys, I hate to be all braggy on my kid, but I’m being braggy on my kid.

    So he’s watching the first season of the Simpsons. Episode where Homer has to go apologize to a stripper for objectifying her, and gives a nice little speech. Child says “see, it’s educational!”

    A few hours later, we’re watching Gravity Falls (OMG go watch Gravity Falls). Gideon forces Mabel to go on a date, and I tell child that Gideon should have respected Mabel when she said no and understand that no means no. He says “He should have watched that episode of the Simpsons, because he’d learn that he’s treating Mabel like an object instead of a person.”

    Score one for cartoons! Hopefully the lesson sticks.

  335. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    Audley – thanks. :) I’m overly proud when he gets stuff like this because of the Asperger’s – the more rules I can get in his brain about relationships now, the better off he’ll be later.

  336. Patricia, OM says

    whew, thanks Nerd. It sounds like a very frustrating recovery for you and the Redhead both. My poor aunt was in tears two days ago because her motorized recliner broke down, and the part will take at least seven days to get here.

    Caine – Thanks for the ratlet pictures, a ray of cute sorely needed today.

  337. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    That sounds brag-worthy to me, carlie. There is much promise!
    ——————————————————

    Og, I read the “protect the rapists” thread earlier, some of it anyway. It was disgusting then, I’m not sure I want to wade back in now based on your reaction. And for goodness sake, don’t apologize. No one thought that thread would dig so deep into the depths of slime that it has. There’s no shame in keeping away if it’s too much for you. *hugs*
    ——————————————————

    Ugh, my eyes are aching. Tried to get some reading done for class, and oof. I love the PDF files, I do not love how harsh the monitor is to my eyes for long-term reading, especially of stuff I need to know.

    Once again I wish I knew for sure if the motorcoach will have wifi on it. Then I’d have the perfect excuse to buy an inexpensive but reliable tablet or netbook. Nothing like keeping up with classwork while away from home.

    OTOH, my friend is thinking of dropping one of his courses. Reading Brothers Grimm while having a toddler in the house is far more than he can take. Shame, I was looking forward to hearing his take on the course.
    —————————————————-

    LOl @ ratlets trying to escape. Nimble little things! Glad to hear they’re doing well.

  338. ImaginesABeach says

    My air conditioner stopped working. And we can afford to get it fixed. But every once in a while, Mr. Beach gets all “me man, me fix things” and insists that we should not call a repair person, because after all, he’s an electrician (which, may I point out, is NOT an HVAC person), but since he works tomorrow and Wednesday, he can’t even start looking at it until Friday.

    Sorry about the rant (I know it’s not just first world problems, but privileged as well) but DAMN IT, I’m hot and cranky.

  339. Patricia, OM says

    President Obama just left Portland where he was at a fund raiser that cost $38,500 per ticket . Thanks Barack, that one ticket alone is worth MORE than the widows pension you and congress approved for me, for four freakin’ years!

    /pissed off rant

  340. says

    Ogvorbis, you have nothing to be sorry for. That thread is bad for a lot of people, I had to get out myself. Much love to you.

    Pteryxx:

    The ratlets just pour uphill.

    The literally do! It’s like trying to contain a waterfall going up. We felt like we were in the movie Ben, just miniaturized. :D

    Audley, Rubin & crew are doing wonderfully! Rubin’s ratlets now have fur and their eyes are close to opening. They are all active and utterly breathtaking, so, so beautiful. Rubin is doing well, but she desperately wants to be out all the time. I sympathize with her, but at least her crew are staying in the box for now. I got her extra treats in town today, because she has lost a fair amount of weight – feeding 13 hungry babies takes it out of a gal.

  341. says

    Natural childbirth: I happen to like Dr. Amy Tuteur’s take on it. Yes, she’s abrasive. Yes, sometimes she’s an apologist for the medical establishment. That said, I think she does a valuable service exposing the woo and, frankly, the poisonously gender-essentialist attitudes among some of the NCB set.

    Richard Austin:

    fetusmobile

    That reminds me of an anecdote I read somewhere a while ago, about one of those fundie assholes with giant photos of bloody stillbirths plastered all over his van, which he drove around on a local college campus, yelling through a bullhorn about UNBORRRN BAAYYYBEEEZ and UNNATCHURRALLL PERVERRRRZIONZZZ. The students made up a jingle about him, to the tune of the old “Batman” theme:

    Fetus Man, Fetus Man,
    Drives around in a fetus van,
    Cruises campus on Friday nights,
    Yelling at the sodomites —
    Look out! It’s Fetus Man!

    As for women being “more socially sensitive” than men, it’s because we’re acculturated to be. And because we have to be in order to survive.

    Krasnaya Koshka:

    My jaw literally dropped far enough for my cigarette to drop on the moist grass.

    I’m sorry but I LOL’ed.

    Regarding a Pharyngula island or commune…. am I the only one here who really does not want to live in any sort of communal situation? I’m not a hermit, but I seem to need much more solitude than most people do, at least in the U.S., where not being gregarious is a social disease.

    Tony, the thread on Savannah Dietrich has some vile specimens, but “Rationalia Isn’t” was worse IMO.

    Josh: That was amazing. I need a cigarette and I don’t even smoke.

  342. says

    The Palins: Teaching ‘em while they’re young. You can mouse over the link for the gist of it.

    @jer_sandusky, “a parody account” full of unfunny rape jokes. Ass.

    The Jim Henson Company has severed ties with Bigot McChicken. In return, Chick-Fil-A has started to recall Jim Henson Kids’ Meal Toys — and tell customers the recall is about “safety issues.” Uh-huh.

    Meanwhile, Mike Fuckabee is calling for a National Christ-Fil-A Appreciation Day.” and whining about the “vicious hate speech and intolerant bigotry” aimed at its vicious, intolerant, bigoted owner.

  343. says

    USB icecream, icecubes, fans etc to ImaginesABeach. Maybe some palm trees and surf, too.

    Having problems is just so relative. I keep feeling terrible for whining about my health when I have one friend who’s nearly but not quite quadraplegic after a car accident, and another friend who’s dying of cancer in her 40s. Me, I’m just tired all the time, have asthma, and can’t walk more than 5 minutes at a slow pace. Well boo fucking hoo for me, I should just suck it up, right?

  344. Patricia, OM says

    Oh wait, a different reporter on the same local station now says it was only $30,000 per ticket. Well hell, we’re pals again now. That makes all the difference.

    Damn it’s going to be hard to vote for him again.

  345. A. R says

    General plea to people with Elsevier access: I’m away from my University right now, and since the remote access is down, I can’t get into my account. Thusly, I am forced to grovel for a pdf of this article: linky. Thank you! (Oh, and did I mention, I FUCKING HATE ELSEVIER!)

    [X-post TET/TZT]

  346. Pteryxx says

    Regarding a Pharyngula island or commune…. am I the only one here who really does not want to live in any sort of communal situation? I’m not a hermit, but I seem to need much more solitude than most people do, at least in the U.S., where not being gregarious is a social disease.

    Indeed… it needs to be a big enough island to have some good-sized wild spaces, and isolated homesteads around the edges for our solitary folks. *nodnod*

    Really, the only reason for the island metaphor is as a physical representation of a safe space. It’s just easier, and sometimes necessary, to protect a small space while trying to survive the process of changing the cruel world.

  347. says

    Daisy:

    I’m not a hermit, but I seem to need much more solitude than most people do

    I’m antisocial and require vast amounts of time alone and I’d live in Pharyngula Town in a second. Simply living in a communal place doesn’t mean you’re expected to be socially active all the time. It’s simply like-minded people living together in the same area. People would still have their own housing and given how many introverts inhabit virtual Pharyngula, I don’t think there’d be pressure to be social.

  348. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    Oh man, these are awesome. Via Regretsy, tunes you can customize and have people call up your friends to sing. “Super duper job” is my favorite.

    Thanks, Audley and PTI. :) I noticed you mentioned your other sister earlier – somehow I had merged them into one person. Can the second sister run interference for you on the one who’s being a pill? Or is that not the kind of dynamic you have?

    Oh, Sherman Hemsley died. :( Cue all of the jokes about how he’s moved on up.

  349. Tony the Parkour Kat [safe and welcome at FtB] says

    Janine (from the thread “It’s odd how culture shelters some who should be shamed”)

    Tony, you are now sounding like a fan of Glenn Beck.

    *snort*

    Um, I don’t follow.

  350. ImaginesABeach says

    Did I mention that the last time Mr. Beach suffered a fit of testosterone poisoning, it cost us a bundle because he fell off the roof? Please just let me call an HVAC person!

  351. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    *is now really curious as to why A.R. needs a paper on Ebola*

    Sorry, it just seems a more cheerful topic than those damned rape threads. I mean, I don’t think there are any Ebola-denialists or Ebola-enablers that are going to show up.

  352. says

    Sorry, it just seems a more cheerful topic than those damned rape threads. I mean, I don’t think there are any Ebola-denialists or Ebola-enablers that are going to show up.

    Well, maybe Ebola isn’t as serious if you catch it while you’re asleep…

  353. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    Well, maybe Ebola isn’t as serious if you catch it while you’re asleep…

    Doubtful. Ebola makes you bleed to death internally and from every orifice over several days.

  354. Pteryxx says

    But, but, think of the poor hemorrhagic viruses! What about their good name?

  355. cicely says

    Josh: *applause* & *waving of Bics*

    *hugs&boozes* for Ogvorbis. No-one will think ill or any the less of you if you sit this one out.

    carlie, your kid sounds very brag-worthy. Brag away!
    :)

    Ing, get well soon.

    Ya know…if you want to.

    I’m not ordering you to. I would never want to assault your personal autonomy in any way.

    Just, ya know…if you think you might like it.

    ;)

    Ebola is fascinating; like a potentially very messy train wreck that has brought plenty for everyone.

    I’m not allowed to read about it any more.
    -

  356. A. R says

    Esteleth: Oh, I’m trying to get reoriented to the research. I’ve gotten a bit behind on the field lately with all of the effort I’ve put in to my mumps project. However, my PhD-related plans involve Ebola, and I need to start reading up so as to impress my (hopefully) future PhD adviser. I think I can still remember most of the structure/function research I read on the viral glycoprotein complex though! And yes, it is truly sad when Ebola becomes the most cheering topic of conversation.

  357. cicely says

    Doubtful. Ebola makes you bleed to death internally and from every orifice over several days.

    Graphically, and with extreme prejudice.

    But, but, think of the poor hemorrhagic viruses! What about their good name?

    O.o

    Their what, now?
    -

  358. A. R says

    Ebola: [clears throat, begins pedantic rant] OK, so though thefamily as a whole has a roughly 60-70% CFR (case fatality rate), the classic hemorrhagic fever is actually relatively rare among the less nasty strains (anywhere from 1-5% of cases depending on who you ask), the nastier strains, like Mayinga and Zaire 1995, (you know the ones with 90% CFRs) have much higher rates of HF. Most commonly however, filovriuses (the family to which the ebolaviruses belong), kill by multiple organ failure, destruction of the nervous system, and cytokine storm (when your immune system goes batshit and kills you instead of the pathogen). Actually cytokine storm is the reason young, healthy patients are more likely than other groups to die of pandemic influenza strains.

  359. Pteryxx says

    Random cuteness… I’ve never had to hand-raise baby ratlets (and it’s extremely difficult to hand-raise orphaned pinkies *at all*). Normally it’s done by fostering the orphans to another mom. Rat moms tend to be awesome fosters in my experience, willing and able to care for all kinds of strange mystery babies, and even to share communal care of a megalitter with another rat mom.

    Way back when I worked for a pet place with a lot of miscellaneous orphans to salvage if possible. Rat moms, and only rat moms, were the go-to for any random pups that needed saving. At one point I had a rat mother nursing her own pinkies, a few pinkie mice, a couple of hamsters and a gerbil. She’d carefully arrange her own gigantic pups so the tiny pinkie mice didn’t get squished, and somehow ensured that they all got milk. She even groomed the baby mice extra-carefully with her relatively huge rat tongue.

  360. Pteryxx says

    Is that fact that that all came off the top of my head a bad sign?

    Heck no, you’re going to go and impress a fellow Ebola fan, right?

  361. A. R says

    Pteryxx: Yep, and I have to get even better. Hence my reading about 150 Ebola papers by this fall.

  362. cicely says

    Is that fact that that all came off the top of my head a bad sign?

    Is the fact that I could sing along, in spite of never having been within arms reach of anything remotely resembling the field, a bad sign?

    And that, friends, associates, and random lurkers-by, is why I’m not allowed to read about it anymore.

    Well, that’s half of the reason, anyways.
    -

  363. says

    At one point I had a rat mother nursing her own pinkies, a few pinkie mice, a couple of hamsters and a gerbil. She’d carefully arrange her own gigantic pups so the tiny pinkie mice didn’t get squished, and somehow ensured that they all got milk. She even groomed the baby mice extra-carefully with her relatively huge rat tongue.

    Awww. Pteryxx, that is a great story. Thank you for sharing that.

  364. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

    I’m now quite curious as to how one would sing about Ebola.

    It sounds kind of like the Love Boat theme.

    E-boooo-laaaaaa, soon will be making your organs run
    E-boooo-laaaaaaa, promises grossness for everyone.

  365. says

    Regarding the Dietrich thread vs. Rationalia: I was grievously wrong. The current one is worse. It’s shorter (so far), but it’s much more triggering for people with sexual assault trauma. Fucking hogglers. I wish bone cancer on every one of them.

    There’s a metastasizing anal polyp called “dirtyvodkaman” who’s tweeting all sorts of vile misogyny about Dietrich, and unshockingly he’s also a virulent racist and homophobe. I learned about him because Josh replied to him after Ophelia retweeted something of DVM’s to call it out. I don’t do Twitter, but maybe other people would like to jump his shit?

    ***

    A friend of mine took the image of the Ebola plushie off Giant Microbes and made it into a macro.

    Anybody else ever read The Hot Zone? Richard Preston can’t write his way out of a paper bag with a soggy bottom, but the descriptions of Ebola in that book scared the bejeezus out of me.

    One book I’m reading right now is The Killers Within. In the waning years of the German Democratic Republic, one of the various scientists profiled in the book discovered that pig farmers who used certain antibiotics in the feed, plus their families and neighbors, had been colonized by vancomycin-resistant enterococci. The worst colonized were those who regularly ate a dish called Gehacktes — which is raw pork, minced and seasoned — and/or sausages that were cured on the outside but at least partially raw inside. That made my gorge rise. WTF, trichinosis, anyone?

  366. A. R says

    carlie: I’m quite happy I’m working with a waterproof keyboard right now!

    Oh, and before anyone asks, yes, I do have one of these.

  367. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

    I have E. coli, HIV, MRSA, Epstein-Barr, and a stem cell.

    ….

    in plush. :D

    MRSA has a superman cape.

  368. A. R says

    Esteleth: I have Ebola, Strep B, MRSA, Rhinovirus, Influenza, Y. Pestis, B. anthracis, T. brucei, Dengue, Polio, Cholera, and S. typhii. Most of them were from family/friends/professors who know I’m obsessed with scary-ass microrganisms. (And yes, the MRSA cape is epic)

  369. cicely says

    I’m now quite curious as to how one would sing about Ebola.

    Metaphorically. Though carlie’s made a nice start at it. :)

    Anybody else ever read The Hot Zone? Richard Preston can’t write his way out of a paper bag with a soggy bottom, but the descriptions of Ebola in that book scared the bejeezus out of me.

    Read it; got my bejeezus scared out.
    -