In fact, I can’t think of one, even one, precaution that a woman (or man) can take that actually has a good chance of preventing rape that would also be considered “reasonable” by any rational or honest individual.
You could lock yourself in your home in total isolation from all contact with any other human being of either gender, I suppose.
And if you want to talk about “reasonable” precautions, I think, the first burden on you is to describe your proposed precaution and demonstrate that it actually works to prevent rape.
That should be the FIRST step before the conversation should go any further at all.
The oneplusxxx asshole has been banned, and has skulked back at least once. Do not bother to reply to him, I will delete his comments as I catch up with them.
And what is this with another clueless whiner or two showing up as soon as I get rid of one? Could you people PLEASE STOP MAKING THE SAME STUPID ARGUMENTS. Read the thread. They’ve been dealt with multiple times.
What, this? “My suggesting he change his behavior I’m accepting the fact that the world is not as we wish it to be. It’s about protecting yourself and your property from people who don’t follow the rules.”?
Apparently I’m terrible at analogies and embarrassing myself for posting them. For some reason some people prefer they not be posted. I guess they don’t want me to embarrass myself. I’m really surprised about how much they don’t want me to post them. They apparently care about me so deeply.
Mills, pay attention. The breaking in and theft of stuff from your car analogy didn’t fucking fly. Your stupid analogy about lunch money doesn’t fucking work either. WOMEN ARE NOT THINGS! But you sure as fuck are trying to convince us otherwise you asshole.
Fuck you.
Also, another thing about your stupid analogy, tell your son’s fucking teacher. Why wasn’t that brought up? Is your son’s teacher like you?
Oh, of course that’s the assumption. Since you don’t fucking help to solve problems and make other people change themselves instead of going after the assholes. That’s so helpful to let a child steal lunch money. Either that kid needs discipline or needs help so they don’t have to steal to eat. Just assume the kid is a little theif that can’t be stopped or helped. Just like how people who tell women to change their behavoir since clearly them beastly men can’t control their urges.
Oh holy shit there’s so much fucking wrong with you and your stupid analogy.
Again, FUCK YOU.
It certainly reduces the incidence of rape to joggers.
CITATION FUCKING NEEDED.
Morons. This shit is just like “it’s counter intuitive that more rapes happen in the home than in alleys”. You know why it seems counter intuitive and common sense. BECAUSE OF OUR RAPE COULTER. People are taught and absorb shit from society from day fucking one, including shit asshole like you spew. Even if it’s been disproved by fucking facts and studies. Read the fucking links given to you.
I am so tired of dumbfucks telling me not to go out at night. That wouldn’t have fucking stopped my father or my abusive ex. Oh sure asshole atheists denounce and pounce of religions telling women to stay with their abusive exes and claim superiority. Yet here those same people are here supporting and defending rape culture, blaming me for my rapes. Great thanks, with allies like you who needs enemies?
And if you want to talk about “reasonable” precautions, I think, the first burden on you is to describe your proposed precaution and demonstrate that it actually works to prevent rape.
But commonsense and dark alleys and commonsense and big dogs and commonsense and get a big fucking gun and commonsense and anyway it’s always the victim’s fault for not using commonsense. At least that’s what Jenny tells us.
YOU are not to blame AT ALL. And I don’t think anyone here would ever sugest that. Your organization should perhaps screen leaders better; not that that would necessarily catch every bad guy, but my point is that one can make recommendation as to how to reduce crime without blaming the victim.
I’m coming out of self-imposed exile just to tell Oneplus to go to hell.
I was an 11 year old boy when a man in the park grabbed me and sexually assaulted me. I couldn’t get free and thought at that moment “I’m dead. I didn’t think I would die so soon.”
After his orgasm he released me, I don’t remember the first several hundred yard but afterward as I walked briskly through a different section of the park and home, I took your advice.
I kept asking myself what I had done to make that man think I wanted him to do that to me. I kept scolding myself for being so careless, and I told myself I was “lucky” that he let me go and I had another chance not to make the same mistake.
My family abandoned me as they scattered due to their own issues, and as I found myself hungry I found myself a target again. I was this pretty little blond-haired boy – so of course, y’know, they couldn’t help themselves.
I spent the next few years not-always-successfully dodging two more pedophiles. Desperate for food, I let myself be lured, trying to never get caught alone in the same room with them. Didn’t always work.
I would make myself small and I would disappear up into the ceiling to get away. I “witnessed” it all from that safe space as a dot up in that ceiling, and I kept taking your advice – kept asking myself what I was doing to make these men think I wanted them to do what they were doing.
I blamed myself for not being able to support myself at get my OWN food, not having a job – at ages 11, 12, 13, 14. School, needless to say, was a secondary concern which is why my education stopped at 8th grade.
I did such a good job of taking your advice that, coupled with a few other unrelated traumas, I managed to work myself into a very nice case of PTSD.
I am 46 years old. TO THIS DAY I have never had and cannot have a relationship. When I HAVE wanted to be with a woman I’ve liked or loved, EVERY TIME, no matter how much I care about her, love her, lust for her, desire her, and no matter how much she wants me and does everything to let me know including taking ALL the initiative – I CAN’T STOP GOING UP INTO THE FUCKING CEILING.
Needless to say this doesn’t go over well with the women who have tried to start a relationship with me. They understandably feel confused and rejected.
So I am alone and will always be alone, and frankly I hate my life. I took your advice. I took responsibility for not having prevented larger stronger males from hurting me. I blamed myself, as you would at least partially blame me.
ITS BAD ADVICE. “What did I do wrong?!” “What could I have done differently?” RUINED MY LIFE.
Why don’t y’all “just taking precautions” people remind your male relatives and friends “Remember, ask for consent first!” every single time they leave the house?
OMFG yes.
Of course my cynical mind went directly to ways rapists could twist and turn to get a “yes” or say “her eyes said yes”.
Enthusiastic consent needs to be more well known and the base assumption of consent instead of just getting someone to say yes once.
Obviously I get that your assumption is that yes means yes. Just pointing out this to lurkers and such since I’ve been a victim of those assholes that twist what consent is to get away with shit.
How is it that certain commenters seem to be unable to comprehend that there do not exist any “reasonable” precautions that can be taken to prevent rape? All of the “common sense” ones are simplistic homilies ignorant of how and when the majority of rapes occur; any that would reliably work in the contexts in which rapes actually occur are so specific to individual situations that they too unpredictable to prescribe for given population; rapists are intelligent (relatively, at least) creatures who will change their tactics as conditions require to be able to do what they do.
Etcetera. “Keeping the goods locked up” is not a useful analogy for how to prevent rape. Victims’ vulnerabilities–which vary from moment to moment–are not objectively discrete objects that can be surrounded by repellant or impenetrable barriers. Rape happens because rapists have the desire and tenacity to carry out their wishes. To get it right, this useless piece of advice should say instead that we need to lock up the perpetrators, because they are the only constant in the rape equation. But how do we predict who is going to rape, and when?
Here’s a story. At the age of 12, my body was still assigned the designation of female. I was recognized as a girl–despite my fervent wishes to be recognized in some other way. I was raped by a stranger, in broad daylight, around 3pm on a Sunday afternoon in a place where people were gathered, while wearing a jacket that was about five sizes too big for me, jeans and a t-shirt. I was a very young twelve, showing no signs of impending “womanhood,” and my grandmother was beachcombing nearby. Some random dude watched me play on the beach until I had managed to wander to a spot that was hidden in some low dunes. He tackled me from above and behind, and, well, I don’t feel like detailing the rest.
I never told anyone. Do you know why? Because on TV, in the early 70s, it was a common trope to show rape victims at trial being grilled on their backgrounds and how they comported themselves. Rape trials were portrayed as humiliating for rape victims. I had been molested and raped the previous year by a family member (middle of the day, at home, someone who was supposed to be trustworthty) and was both sworn to secrecy and under the impression that I was somehow complicit in it, despite having been coerced and manipulated and having my own naivete used against me.
I never told anyone back then because in the rape culture in which I lived, as it existed at the time, it was apparent to me that all my secrets would be uncovered in court if I reported the rape. I would be put on trial, not my rapist. Nevermind that I was 12 and, in the 70s at least, the press had not yet started blaming young girls for their own rapes like they do now. But I was a literal-minded kid. TV did not lie, in my mind.
My case is anecdotal evidence, of course, but it was a real situation, unlike the 3am-in-an-alley stereotyped stranger rape. Every rape victim has another one to share, if people would shut up and listen. But that might actually help victims to deal with what has happened to them, which is not nearly as important as those of you who deem yourselves so wise on the matter convincing yourselves that you know the secret to escape ever being raped.
All I can say is good luck. I hope it works when your number comes up. I truly do: nobody deserves to be raped. Nobody. Rape should not happen. But to get there from here is going to require a hell of a lot more than telling women where they should go and when, and what they should wear, and what they should do. That advice is of zero value.
Ok I am going to disappear behind the screen again and slowly simmer in my own rage.
I’m seeing the victims of rape and sexual abuse baring their souls here, and I feel so small and petty for even considering myself worthy of participating in this conversation. How empty does someone have to be to see that and just disregard all of that real pain and heartache and continue to troll the comments here for shits and grins?
Ok I’ve had my fun mocking and snarking at people. Now fun is over. I’m not laughing now. At. All.
A few things we can tell
1) The victim blaming “prevention” is well addressed already. Continuing to repeat it regardless of how much of a new metaphor you put on it doesn’t change the fact that it’s demolished 69 ways from Humpday. It doesn’t work, its insulting, it offends real rape victims, it’s demoralizing, it’s excusing. There’s no reason to keep making the argument. It’s done. Over.
2) It’s been made clear there are real victims and survivors here. Some have actively said how that argument offends and diminishes them. This is well demonstrated anyone who is here knows this by now.
Those two things make it painfully clear that the only reason these people are still talking is because they want to troll and offend rape victims. You sicken me, you are basically the net equivalent of flashers shoving your junk in people’s face. It is at the point that you know enough that to do this you basically either want to trigger someone or don’t care if you do.
I am not laughing. You’re lucky PZ runs the show instead of someone like me because at this point I not only would ban you, I’d IP check and do anything I could to out you because I’d want everyone to know what a disgusting piece of shit you are. I’d want everyone at a conference to know to keep distance from you and not to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are scum.
eriktrips: I am truly sorry you went through that. Again, I am not saying I have the key to prevent rape, and I realize that perhaps my posts could be misinterpreted as blaming the victim. However, I NEVER said to tell women not to wear this or that. I expressly said the opposite of that. Personally, I will wear whatever the hell I want, and I wouldn’t want anyone telling me otherwise. And I AGREE that many rapes are not preventable, and there was nothing the victim could have done to prevent it, whether she/he stayed in her/his house in the nicest neighborhood ever but was still assaulted by the stepfather or uncle. It’s terrible, and it happens, and it’s something that no one should EVER have to go through. My point is, though, that it should not be taken as offensive to tell a friend not to go out drunk or high alone in the middle of the night. Crime (not just rape) does happen at that time in that situation more than it does if you choose to stay the night at a trusted friend’s house instead. If she ignores your advice and gets hurt, she’s not to blame, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t warn people anyway.
Okay, mills and Jenny, explain to Jajafa Hots and eriktrips what precautions they failed to take. Be specific. Or admit you’re both talking out of your victim-blaming asses.
I never told anyone. Do you know why? Because on TV, in the early 70s, it was a common trope to show rape victims at trial being grilled on their backgrounds and how they comported themselves. Rape trials were portrayed as humiliating for rape victims. I had been molested and raped the previous year by a family member (middle of the day, at home, someone who was supposed to be trustworthty) and was both sworn to secrecy and under the impression that I was somehow complicit in it, despite having been coerced and manipulated and having my own naivete used against me.
Hear that all you fucking assholes. That is you. You are doing this right now. Seriously, I am not using hyperbole or joking or kidding anymore with you shits. You are acting as accomplices to rape.
Those defense tricks MAY help someone escape from a determined or stranger-type assailant, IF the victim’s already made the decision to fight back.
However, try and use hairspray or car keys on a rapey acquaintance in a party full of his friends, and you’ll likely be charged with assault.
Trying to fight back against an abusive partner increases the odds that you’ll be hospitalized or die.
None of that will reduce the incidence of rape. AT BEST, in a very specific and unusual situation, it might let one victim break away so the pissed-off rapist can go hunt for another one.
These defend-yourself tricks don’t take into account the rapist who turns violent at any sign of resistance. The narrative doesn’t include terrified victims who wisely did NOT fight back against a violent aggressor, and thus escaped with their lives and relatively uninjured compared to the combative victims who get beaten up or killed.
Sure, list tricks, but always leave the decision-making to the person who actually has to survive.
To the regulars here who are quick to school the exasperatingly predictable writers of apologies and derails: thank you. You make it possible to lurk, because these people are almost always dispatched quickly and with flair.
Also, I have been reading here for a few years. Broadly speaking, the atmosphere here has become more and more forbidding of foolishness, blather, and run-of-the-mill privilege and prejudice. I, for one, really appreciate that.
eriktrips: I am truly sorry you went through that. Again, I am not saying I have the key to prevent rape, and I realize that perhaps my posts could be misinterpreted as blaming the victim. However, I NEVER said to tell women not to wear this or that. I expressly said the opposite of that. Personally, I will wear whatever the hell I want, and I wouldn’t want anyone telling me otherwise. And I AGREE that many rapes are not preventable, and there was nothing the victim could have done to prevent it, whether she/he stayed in her/his house in the nicest neighborhood ever but was still assaulted by the stepfather or uncle. It’s terrible, and it happens, and it’s something that no one should EVER have to go through. My point is, though, that it should not be taken as offensive to tell a friend not to go out drunk or high alone in the middle of the night. Crime (not just rape) does happen at that time in that situation more than it does if you choose to stay the night at a trusted friend’s house instead. If she ignores your advice and gets hurt, she’s not to blame, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t warn people anyway.
Pteryxx says:
15 June 2012 at 7:30 pm
It’s oppressive to women to be constantly reminded that they have to be always vigilant and weighing the risks of every little thing they do. (Also condescending and insulting.)
Why don’t y’all “just taking precautions” people remind your male relatives and friends “Remember, ask for consent first!” every single time they leave the house?
If I thought my husband or son would commit rape, I would.
However, I have 24 years experience with my husband and our son has been brainwashed on the topic since he was old enough to listen. I don’t think I need to.
With our daughter, however, I remind her from time to time that all men aren’t like the ones in our family.
I fully agree that it’s “oppressive to women to be constantly reminded that they have to be always vigilant…” But if that reminder saves the trauma of rape, I regard it as the wise thing to do.
And when any of them take the car, I say “Drive safely.” That’s an expression of love, and they understand that.
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RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
Crime (not just rape) does happen at that time in that situation more than it does if you choose to stay the night at a trusted friend’s house instead. If she ignores your advice and gets hurt, she’s not to blame, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t warn people anyway.
Because the concepts that you’re presenting here are mutually exclusive. “Take responsibility for your safety” and “if anything bad happens to you, it’s not your fault” are not compatible. How can I only take responsibility if I succeed?
Also, it’s been pointed out more than once that the majority of rapes occur in situations that “rape prevention tipz” will not help with, and you and the others of your ilk continue to ignore that point.
You know what would actually help these hypothetical rapes? If our imaginary cops would fucking deal with the problem that there’s apparently times and places that rape is nigh inevitable. If it’s common sense to avoid these places and times why the fuck aren’t the cops doing shit?
I’m leaving, you people are fucking ridiculous. It is terrible that people get raped, and who the fuck are you to assume that rape has not affected anyone in my life? (It has, my mom was sexually abused by her father.) I was making a VERY REASONABLE , mild point, and all you seem to get out of it is that I encourage rape, hate rape victims, and kill people because I enjoy that sort of thing. Now go back to patting yourselves on the back. I have enjoyed reading Pharyngula but everyone is getting too groupthink and fucking violent here. Proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life (and I do realize that I would not make this post with f-bombs in real life myself).
But if that reminder saves the trauma of rape, I regard it as the wise thing to do
please tell this to everyone here who was rapped. Who is asking you what they did wrong.
You don’t give a flying FUCK about what happens to other people. All you care about is your pathetic security blanket. Your childish belief that you can follow the magic rules and be ‘safe’. You fucking baby. GROW UP
Proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life (and I do realize that I would not make this post with f-bombs in real life myself).
listen here you little pissguzzler. You think this is fucking VIOLENCE? PEOPLE HERE WERE RAPED and you hurt them. You fucking selfish swine. You want send me an e-mail and I will fucking skype you and say it face to face. Hell if you’re close enough I WILL FUCKING MEET YOU TO YELL AT YOU. So long, good riddance, I hope you stay “safe”
My point is, though, that it should not be taken as offensive to tell a friend not to go out drunk or high alone in the middle of the night.
Actually I would find that pretty fucking offensive. If I gave a shit about my friend, I’d offer to go with them, give them a ride, or offer my couch for the night; or at the very least ask to call them around the time they should be home.
amaclean, the only one here being cruel is YOU. Other people are baring their deepest pain for the world to see, for YOU to see so that maybe you’ll shut up for a minute, stop trying to score debate points, and actually understand what people are trying to explain to you. Instead of being empathetic and maybe putting your own feelings and need to win aside, you just keep plowing forward with your nonsense. You’re so sure that you’re right that you just don’t care who you hurt in the process, do you?
I fully agree that it’s “oppressive to women to be constantly reminded that they have to be always vigilant…” But if that reminder saves the trauma of rape, I regard it as the wise thing to do.
And how about when the constant reminder of the importance of vigilance compounds the trauma by adding to the fuckload of victim-blaming people are already subjected to, like you’re doing to several rape survivors now?
Look. I did everything right. I actually used to be a teetotaller. I was monogamous and never went to parties, and when I went out at night, I was vigilant and careful and on edge and usually with friends. And still, when I was raped, five times by two different men, I blamed myself. I blamed myself so hard and so long that I convinced myself it wasn’t the men’s fault at all, and that I should forgive them, and when I couldn’t, I blamed myself for that too. Because it wouldn’t have happened if I’d just taken “reasonable precautions” like not trusting anybody, ever, or like not provoking them by having a body. You? With your shit about how we should all take “reasonable precautions” to avoid a crime that for the most part happens in situations where those precautions would do nothing? You’re part of the problem.
However, I NEVER said to tell women not to wear this or that. I expressly said the opposite of that.
Motherfucking liar.
My point is, though, that it should not be taken as offensive to tell a friend not to go out drunk or high alone in the middle of the night. Crime (not just rape) does happen at that time in that situation more than it does if you choose to stay the night at a trusted friend’s house instead. If she ignores your advice and gets hurt, she’s not to blame, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t warn people anyway.
Telling a friend that when they are sober is a way to rub it in and say “I told you so”.
Telling a friend while they are drunk, “hey let’s stay here you (we) are drunk and stupid” is different, just like having a designationed sober person.
Telling women to no go out late at night or to be out alone alone whether drinking or not, AS A RAPE PREVENTION TIP IS NOT FUCKING HELPFUL. Telling someone that to prevent fucking crime, any crime as you say, is fucking condescending. It assumes they don’t fucking know the dangers already like a child. It assumes they shouldn’t have been there. It assumes that they had another choice, a better less risky choice and shouldn’t have made that decision.
Do you truly see how saying to someone ” You’re not to blame but you shouldn’t have been out at night” is fucking blaming, shaming and un-fucking-helpful. The BUT in that sentence completely negates what was said before it. Same shit as “I’m not a rapist but…”.
If I thought my husband or son would commit rape, I would. [...]
With our daughter, however, I remind her from time to time that all men aren’t like the ones in our family.
I’m glad you’re happy with your family. I really am. But you *cannot* assume that makes you exempt. I didn’t think *my* partner was capable of rape until ten years after he’d raped me.
Full consent has to be the expectation, from *everyone*, all the time, no matter who they are.
What should Jajafa Hots, eriktrips, or I, have done? What specific strategies would have worked for us? All three of us were raped in the daytime. In public places. We were not drinking. We were not doing drugs. So what is your advice? What should I have done?
And, like eriktrips, I never told a soul. Wife does not know. Part of it was that I knew I would never be believed. First, I had a reputation as a storyteller. Not a liar, but I could spin a really good yarn back then — enough to keep classmates interested for a half an hour or more. Second, the cub scout leader was a Well Respected Man in our community, a stakeholder in the local Mormon Church, a father and a Good Family Man. Third, I knew that what had happened to me was not supposed to happen to a boy. And last was the peer pressure to just shut up and pretend it never happened. And we did.
See, even though I couldn’t pin down why, I knew back then that I should be ashamed. Me, not the rapist, I was at fault. Do you understand that? Do you understand that when you tell women they should take precautions they already are and it doesn’t stop the rapes? They still happen. They happen again and again and again. And they are left with the thoughts, what should I have done, what did I do wrong? And they know that if they do report the rape, except in rare communities, the ordeal of police, and prosecutor, and family, and friends can be almost as bad as the rape?
I am lucky. I am now a 46-year-old man who is, all things considered, pretty damn stable. I am about 6 feet tall and weight in at about 19 stone. People do not screw with me anymore because I am physically imposing. I do not have to be paranoid. I’m lucky.
So, jenny, what should I have done differently? Or any of the other real people here who are showing a shitload of bravery in the face of your consistent and unconscionable victim blaming?
By doing so I’m I contributing to “lunch money stealing culture”. I am saying he is at fault? Am I saying that the person who stole it is not 100% at fault?
To some only the carrot and the stick exist. How about altering the thieves viewpoint. A good lesson for both children and better for society.
Kinda like what PZ tried to do with the cartoon he posted.
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RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
It assumes they don’t fucking know the dangers already like a child.
I think that’s where a lot of this bullshit comes from: thinking women are fucking stupid. They continually show it with their fucking “tips”, like women don’t know the risks or how to protect themselves, and all their godawful “I tell my child not to touch the stove” or “I tell my kid not to leave money on the school desk” arguments: women are either stupid or they’re property. None of these fuckrockets have come up with a single analogy that actually fits with what the crime of rape is.
Just read the rest of the thread, Horace and shut your fucking gob.
And, as long as I’m smacking down stupid fucking arguments:
-I am going to go into a biker’s bar naked tonight.
Rapists don’t have a specific “look”, moron, nor do they have any particular hobbies or lifestyle. How the fuck do you think priests get away with it? It’s a combination of the church protecting them and the fact that they don’t look like a fucking threat.
(Also, an anecdote: The biker bar in my town has the reputation for being the safest place to go have a drink. So what now, douchebucket?)
Know what you should do to prevent racism? Not be black. Try to be as white as possible. Sure that just means the Klan will lynch some other poor bastard, but it keeps you safe! Don’t piss off the Klan, be respectful to them, say Yes Sir or Yes Maam when yous ee a white person on the street, move to the other side of the street when they walk the other way, let them get in front of you online, give up your seat for them, if they run out of toilet paper offer to rim them clean: that way they’ll lynch some other poor bastard. It’ll keep you safe at the expense of someone else, and all it cost you was dignity and your worth as a human
OR we could address the fact that the criminal activity is being committed.
“How is it that certain commenters seem to be unable to comprehend that there do not exist any “reasonable” precautions that can be taken to prevent rape?”
There seem to be differing opinions upon this. Some posters who are posting in favor of “rape culture” seem to disagree with you on this. Amphiox as a recent example in a long post.
Are there many rapes where no reasonable precautions would have mattered or could be foreseen or could be taken? Yes. No matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t change the fact that there are situations that can be avoided.
Saying that someone who thinks it would be wise for his teenage daughter to not walk alone at night in a dangerous area, or put herself in positions with drunk boys that could be avoided, and equating that with a 11 year old being raped by his uncle doesn’t help anything. Saying that would prevent a trusted family member from raping her in no way means she should throw all caution to the wind with drunk boys and dangerous areas.
Those are different situations. I buy a car that I consider relatively safe. It has a lot of safety features. The fact I could be t-boned by an 18 wheeler is not an argument that I shouldn’t have airbags. Just because they don’t help in all cases don’t mean they don’t help in some.
There seem to be people here who don’t care at all about reasonable arguments and just tell anyone who disagrees to fuck off.
My position.
1) Some people blame victims.
2) Some people don’t blame victims and blame the criminals that deserve 100% of the blame.
3) Some people believe in reasonable precautions and that it is OK to verbalize them.
I think that being in groups 2 & 3 is a reasonable position. It is mine.
Apparently I’m terrible at analogies and embarrassing myself for posting them. For some reason some people prefer they not be posted. I guess they don’t want me to embarrass myself.
Watching you post is like watching a creationist running his mouth about the great mystery of why there are still monkeys. It is so stupid that it is PAINFUL TO WATCH.
OK, then, “take precautions!” dudes. Let us, just for the sake of the argument, briefly assume that some kinds of precautions do deter some rapists. Say, I have my own personal magical anti-rape power, guaranteed to deter 95% of stranger-rapists! As long as I don’t roll a 20, I’m safe! Go me!
But what happens next? Will the stranger-rapist lurking by the alley near the bar see me walking by in my fabulous Rapist-B-gone armour suit, and just shrug and go home? Or is it, perhaps, not about me personally? Might that rapist actually just wait to choose someone who looks like an easier target? So how did me taking precautions actually prevent rape?
(or, what coleslaw said @236.)
One thing that I think has not yet been mentioned is the abuse that women get when we happen to mention that we do “take precautions”, like not getting in an elevator late at night with a stranger. BAWWWW YOU ARE CALLING ME A RAPIST!! So do go ahead and take precautions, ladies, but make sure that no men ever notice that you are doing so! Because that would be extremely rude and hostile and radfemmy feminazi misandric of you. And then you would deserve to be raped for being an uppity bitch!
I’m leaving, you people are fucking ridiculous.
[...]
Now go back to patting yourselves on the back. I have enjoyed reading Pharyngula but everyone is getting too groupthink and fucking violent here. Proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life (and I do realize that I would not make this post with f-bombs in real life myself).
OK, we’re all too groupthink and fucking violent here, which is proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life.
(You, however, are above all that, and truly have you deigned to grace us with your presence and wisdom)
Are there many rapes where no reasonable precautions would have mattered or could be foreseen or could be taken? Yes. No matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t change the fact that there are situations that can be avoided.
It’s appropriate you have such great hindsight considering where your face is located
I think that being in groups 2 & 3 is a reasonable position. It is mine.
You can disagree.
And I do. Because the only absolute way to avoid rape in a rape culture is to commit suicide before it happens. All your “reasonable” shit is shit. It doesn’t really change the outcome and is window dressing, making you feel good while you blame other people. That is why you are seen as a rape apologist.
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RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
Some people believe in reasonable precautions and that it is OK to verbalize them.
That’s because people already know them, asshole. They take those precautions and rape still happens, and all you’ve done by putting the onus for their safety on them is that they blame themselves. Great fucking job, screwgun.
You’re not being helpful or nice. You’re being condescending AND victim-blaming, you just refuse to see it.
I already pointed out once that “you’re responsible for your own safety” and “the criminal has 100% of the blame” are mutually exclusive concepts. Jesus.
And the extension of your point is used by rapists, the police, churches, the courts, families, etc., to blame the victim. It happens in real life. And you don’t care.
Sad.
No one can be completely sure that they will not be raped/murdered/assaulted, but there are reasonable precautions that everyone can take.
Women are aware of risk and try to mitigate those risks in ways that men can almost never comprehend. And it does not stop rape. And all of the advice telling women what they should and should not do is used as a weapon to blame the victims. And you don’t care.
========
Cipher:
Again, you have my deepest sympathy and I really wish there was something useful I could write.
=========
I think that being in groups 2 & 3 is a reasonable position. It is mine.
You can disagree.
Thank you so very much for allowing me to disagree with you. Your reasonable precautions do not prevent rape.
what reasonable precautions could I, or Cipher, or Jajafa Hots, or eriktrips, have taken? Be specific.
Are there many rapes where no reasonable precautions would have mattered or could be foreseen or could be taken? Yes. No matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t change the fact that there are situations that can be avoided.
Yes. Situations can be avoided. If you’re not in an alley at 3 in the morning, you are virtually guaranteed not to be raped in that alley at 3 in the morning. Similarly, if I was never in my bedroom, I can pretty much guarantee you that I would not have been raped in my bedroom. In fact, considering that the proportion of rapes taking place in the victim’s homes (40%) is larger than the proportion of rapes taking place outside (4%), I think maybe we should tell women to take reasonable precautions against rape by avoiding being in their homes as much as possible. Of course, staying at home doesn’t fit your preconceived narrative of Dangerous Female Behavior, so THAT would be unreasonable.
Really, I don’t expect too many 11-year-olds are reading this thread, much less that said 11-year-olds haven’t already internalized the cultural narrative of victim-blaming and secrecy. (And, no small number of said hypothetical 11-year-olds of whatever gender have already been raped.)
If I thought my husband or son would commit rape, I would.
However, I have 24 years experience with my husband and our son has been brainwashed on the topic since he was old enough to listen. I don’t think I need to. </blockquote
Dumbass. And you claim to be helping to prevent rape. You don’t even know who we are fighting against. It includes people like you .
With our daughter, however, I remind her from time to time that all men aren’t like the ones in our family.
Why do you assume your daughter is a fucking dumbass?
I fully agree that it’s “oppressive to women to be constantly reminded that they have to be always vigilant…” But if that reminder saves the trauma of rape, I regard it as the wise thing to do.
Nice to know you’re keeping the patriarchy strong by oppressing your own fucking daughter since clearly all women are too stupid to know better. Rather ironic coming from her own mother…
Also, This shit doesn’t prevent rape! How many fucking times do we need to tell you until you finally fucking get it? You are telling this shit to rape victims . What is the fucking point of telling us this shit?
And when any of them take the car, I say “Drive safely.” That’s an expression of love, and they understand that.
You are not my fucking family. You are not my fucking friend. You are not my ally. You do not love or even give a shit about me. You telling me this rape apologetic bullshit as a fucking rape victim to rub it in. You, admittedly, oppress me with this shit to keep me in my place. You are my fucking enemy, chill girl, and I’m fighting for my life, my child’s life.
Some people say there are no reasonable precautions and call you a fucktard or tell you to fuck off for suggesting it. Then somebody else calls you an asshole because people already know the reasonable precautions.
I have enjoyed reading Pharyngula but everyone is getting too groupthink and fucking violent here. Proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life (and I do realize that I would not make this post with f-bombs in real life myself).
I think we can all agree that common sense dictates that one can take precautions against violent groupthink by staying off of the internet.
Some people say there are no reasonable precautions and call you a fucktard or tell you to fuck off for suggesting it. Then somebody else calls you an asshole because people already know the reasonable precautions.
Yes we are. You are an ass, ass
It’s a lovely show you are all putting on here.
I’m sorry what part of this is funny to you?
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RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
Some people say there are no reasonable precautions and call you a fucktard or tell you to fuck off for suggesting it. Then somebody else calls you an asshole because people already know the reasonable precautions
This made me laugh, because if we disagree, we’re being dissonant, and if we all agree, then groupthink! Apparently we’re wrong no matter what we do. Pick one and stick with it, cupcake.
Also, not our fault that you don’t understand that the precautions aren’t reasonable because they usually don’t work unless taken to an absurd degree, that most women take them anyway, and then…wait for it…they don’t work. The Deep Rifts you think you see aren’t there.
“In fact, considering that the proportion of rapes taking place in the victim’s homes (40%) is larger than the proportion of rapes taking place outside (4%)”
Your ignorance, presuppositional non-thinking, and fuckwittery are astounding. Not a cogent and relevant thought to date. Care to show us more attitude, ignorance, and stoopidity with further posts?
mills, women are aware of the precautions and they take them when possible. And you know what? It still doesn’t work. Women still get raped. And they some asshole like you comes along and tells them, ‘Well, if you had only taken some common-sense precautions . . . ” what? It wouldn’t have happened? It would have happened to someone else? It is adding another layer of guilt to the blame the victim is already assigning to herself.
And why are you still ignoring all of the examples given showing how all of your rape prevention tips can, and are, used to blame victims? Or do you just not care?
What precautions should I have taken? Be the only boy in 4th or 5th grade who doesn’t join scouts? What should I have done to prevent it? Please be specific.
565
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
“This made me laugh, because if we disagree, we’re being dissonant, and if we all agree, then groupthink! ”
Not at all. You respond to one person and then the tag teamer comes in and attacks you for responding to the position of his partner. Back and forth you go. It has nothing to do with rifts. It has everything to do with improper debate tactics with a few fuck offs thrown in for good measure.
I do feel a bit sorry for amaclean, though. If she’s not lying about who she is, she’s a teenager, and has not yet had the time, experience (luckily) or education to understand how her culture has lied to her. That stuff about precautions that we’ve all heard maybe ten billion times already is still fairly new to her.
Hint: one part of the irritation with the “take precautions” advice is the way it’s delivered as if we are all like six years old and have never heard or thought about any of this before. Gee, thanks for the advice! Do you also have any useful tips on how to tie our shoes?
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1
He’s not Hiding in the Bushes
More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.2
4 in 10 take place at the victim’s home.
2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.
I’m not going to fetch the complete list for you, click it yourself.
574
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
We all know people on the internet can be assholes. Really, until that magical day when everyone learns to get along, the best thing to do is be cautious. If you’re unsure of the situation, find it heated, then leave. Better to cross the street than stand your ground and be sorry.
I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. My father went through something very similar, and so did his next-youngest brother. Different men. Both Mormons. Both “Men of the Community”, and as two boys being raised by a single mother (pretty taboo in the Church at any time, but particularly then), they weren’t “good boys”. No one would have believed them. My dad finally told me about it just recently, when we were talking about this very subject.
Absolutely NONE of these so-called “rape prevention tips” will work if you’re with someone that you’re supposed to trust. THIS kind of rape is much more common than you want to believe.
It has everything to do with improper debate tactics with a few fuck offs thrown in for good measure.
Improper debate tactics? Are you twelve? This is not a fucking game, you fucking ignorant monster. Do you realize what you’re doing? You’re being told repeatedly, by people who have actually been affected by the crime, that what you are doing does harm. And you’re here, what, wanking about fucking “debate tactics”?
It has everything to do with improper debate tactics with a few fuck offs thrown in for good measure.
You view this as a competitive debate. You are interested in scoring points. Wonderful.
So. What should I have done when I was in 4th grade to avoid getting raped? You are so sure these tips work, and that no one has heard of them, so what should I have done?
While there is a bit of group think and some dog piling around here I can say it has been earned by the two big (underdog :P) names I saw.
999? said something really ignorant of the subject matter (I know there probably wasn’t any oppressive intention behind it, at least not consciously,) and then greatly exacerbated the negative response by insisting that nobody could possibly be justified in taking offense to what he said and essentially rejecting a majority of attempts to teach him anything since like, you know, he has a wife and hears about how she has to put up with cat calling.
People saying mean things about you? Big fucking deal. Maybe it hurts but it won’t stick if you don’t act like it upsets you (this is the internet after all- imagine seeing some sharks, chumming the water, then hopping into it. Or you know, maybe don’t insult our intelligence in the first place and avoid the whole mess.)
An easy way to gauge how much you deserve what you’re getting is the question “do you have anything besides insults?” If there’s really nothing else in any of the posts in, let’s say the first ten posts directed at you, then it is possibly just a big misunderstanding. On the other hand, if you can picture asking that question and then getting a bunch of posts where people just about shove the actual points they’ve made straight down your stupid throat, then you definitely shouldn’t insist that you’ve done nothing wrong.
Humility goes a long way. If you can see them talking about a bunch of words you maybe don’t know the exact definition of and it FEELS like they’re putting words in your mouth then shrink back a little bit instead of acting like you’re going to take on all comers and actually say that you suspect you don’t quite comprehend what you’re being told. Maybe say that x wasn’t your intention and ask how you could word it without setting off all the fireworks.
I think doing that would have fast forwarded really quickly to “stopping rape is a great idea but we can’t do it overnight so in the mean time take all the precautions you can” along with some discussion about how it’s still a little bit dumb to tell women to be careful about this but a whole lot less of the part you especially recoil from: other people telling you what you think and why you think it.
Little tip- if you can’t tell why several people are immediately mad at you about ideas you have expressed on a controversial topic then you probably don’t know very much about it (nothing to be ashamed of but for fuck’s sake, act like a student for at least a little while before you try on the teacher role,) and there is an extremely high chance you’ve just said that thing everyone that spends a lot of time in these topics has heard a thousand times and is sick to death of.
Again, with some humility you can probably get a minimally insulting lesson on it out of the people around here and in other hostile forum type spaces.
If your delicate ears can’t handle harsh language stay out of places like this, or more likely if you’d like to just reduce it then stop smacking the wasp nest and genuinely ask people to fill you in on some of the details you might be missing.
It has everything to do with improper debate tactics with a few fuck offs thrown in for good measure.
As I said
Those two things make it painfully clear that the only reason these people are still talking is because they want to troll and offend rape victims. You sicken me, you are basically the net equivalent of flashers shoving your junk in people’s face. It is at the point that you know enough that to do this you basically either want to trigger someone or don’t care if you do.
While there is a bit of group think and some dog piling around here I can say it has been earned by the two big (underdog :P) names I saw.
Oh shut the fuck up. Even joking I’m sick of this. Being a decent person isn’t fucking group think. This is the worst and most pathetic silencing tactic. If everyone thinks you’r wrong it’s because they’re mindless drones.
I do feel a bit sorry for amaclean, though. If she’s not lying about who she is, she’s a teenager, and has not yet had the time, experience (luckily) or education to understand how her culture has lied to her.
There’s another more terrible option. Denial and still believing the lies told to her about rape and what happened. That used to be me. That’s so fucking depressing. =(
Me: Jogging with a large dog along is good for the dog and a quite effective personal safety measure.
It: Interesting. Does it prevent rape?
It certainly reduces the incidence of rape to joggers.
Let’s grant that this is true.
Is reducing the incidence of rape among joggers the goal?
You know, fuck the walkers and the bikers and the people playing volleyball for their exercise.
Because that’s what you’re advocating.
You insist so vehemently that it’s unwise to wear a short skirt while drunk in an alley behind a bar at 3 am.
And you refuse to recognize that rapists hear these messages and think to themselves, well, if I get her while she’s drunk behind the bar late at night, dressed in a skimpy outfit, I’ll be sure to get away with it. Even if she overcomes all the pressure from people like you, dear commenters, to blame herself for not taking these “common-sense” preventative tips and manages to report it to the police, odds are the police, and the judge and jury as well, if it ever gets that far, will be so hung up on the length of her skirt and the heavy makeup and the drinking that they’ll never convict me.
This happens. Over and over again.
I was sexually assaulted while traveling as a teenager in Italy, and for a number of years afterward I thought of it as me being stupid and bad and cheating on my boyfriend, despite the fact that the cheating commenced while I was unconscious.
Regardless of your motives, however pure they are, this is the end result of your insistence.
Someone who is not an inhuman monster would drop that insistence immediately upon being informed that this was the effect of their conviction.
You’re not dropping it. Why? Do you think we’re all lying about the concrete effects of the actions you have taken and advocate taking?
Og, erik, Jafafa, since I didn’t cool down enough to say it yet this thread, I’m so sorry for what you’ve all gone through, and I’m sorry that people are treating this like it’s a game. And I am glad to know you, at least the little I do.
While there is a bit of group think and some dog piling around here I can say it has been earned by the two big (underdog :P) names I saw.
Whenever someone brings up they term “group think” in a discussion like this, I can dismiss their argument right out of hand. Oh you may think you’re so recalcitrant, being all contrary, and being the “underdog”, but in reality the shit you’re pulling has been said a hundred times by other like-mind assholes.
Thank you to everyone who’s told their stories and everyone who’s posted links and everyone who’s rebutted all of those same old tired arguments.
I’m an abuse and rape survivor and I’ve never been able to articulate what is so wrong with people saying that the way to “prevent rape” is to not dress slutty, not go out alone, not drink, etc, etc. It would either make me incoherent with rage or just send me into silent misery.
Even though I knew it was wrong, I couldn’t find the words to explain exactly how and why. You’ve given me the words I’ve desperately needed.
If you think you are “upsetting” me with your ridiculous attacks you couldn’t be more wrong. Unfortunately I’m not that brittle. I wish I was and you could have chased me of by being “mean”. OMG.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
“please stop”
Of course. Do not disagree. It hurts our feelings. You are wrong and we are right. We have the Truth with a capital “T”.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment.
Thank god! I was worried you’d been posting for the last few hours. Fortunately, I find out I’ve never read anything you’ve written, since it’s not allowed.
If you think you are “upsetting” me with your ridiculous attacks you couldn’t be more wrong.
You’re right, how could we ever hope to best a big tough He-Man like you? Keep flexing in that mirror! Now kiss it!
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment.
How is your explicit ability to keep commenting a sign that nobody is allowed to comment if they disagree? Uh oh, cognitive dissonance alert! Deploy Strawman!
Of course. Do not disagree. It hurts our feelings. You are wrong and we are right. We have the Truth with a capital “T”.
Strawman Deployed! Good job, everyone.
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RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
Yo yo, Mills, you so dope man! Like, FUCK THA (THOUGHT) POLICE, all HARDCORE like NWA! Commenting anyway, even though you’re not alLLOWed to by tha fuckin THOUGHT COPS, man, you so gangsta! That some ninja shit man, the way you fuckin wrote shit even though you not alLOWed to.
605
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
Can you imagine how long this thread would be if people who disagreed were allowed to comment? I bet it’d be at least 602 comments long.
I don’t think I could cope with that. I prefer my threads to be totally devoid of critical thought and disagreement. I just want people to tell me how wonderful and smart and beautiful I am. Then they can throw flowers over me. Is that too much to ask, Internet?!
Amaclean is not socknumber99. She’s rather less whiny and preachy, and more personally confused, than the other denialists in the thread. She seems to believe that she and her friends can be safe by taking precautions and looking out for each other. She’s sadly wrong, but she’s also a teenager and naive. At least I really hope she’s just naive, and not in denial – as Just_A_Lurker notes is a possibility.
So call me patronising and ageist if you will, but I truly do have more sympathy for a teenager who’s just starting to come to grips with this issue, than for the tedious misogynist trolls. It’s a pretty horrifying reality to have to face up to.
If you think you are “upsetting” me with your ridiculous attacks you couldn’t be more wrong. Unfortunately I’m not that brittle. I wish I was and you could have chased me of by being “mean”. OMG.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
“please stop”
Of course. Do not disagree. It hurts our feelings. You are wrong and we are right. We have the Truth with a capital “T”.
If you think you are “upsetting” me with your ridiculous attacks you couldn’t be more wrong.
It’s all about you, isn’t it?
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
BS. If anything, the thought police is you, since you’re repeating and shoving age old bullshit and trying to guise it as new and “against the grain”. Yeah you’re really sticking it to our “group think” aren’t ya?
So call me patronising and ageist if you will, but I truly do have more sympathy for a teenager who’s just starting to come to grips with this issue, than for the tedious misogynist trolls. It’s a pretty horrifying reality to have to face up to.
I was certainly unaware of the prevalence of rape, or the many forms it could take, when I was a teenager.
Ama, look up the “just world fallacy.” It’s comforting to think we can control what happens to us. We can’t. But we act as if we can, every day, because to act otherwise would drive us a little crazy. Still, when confronted with someone who has had it painfully proven that you really can’t control everything in your life, it is foolish and insulting to ignore the evidence in front of your eyes.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
You write that as if you hadn’t made many comments, so far.
(In what sense are you not “allowed to comment“, again?)
–
Seriously, now you are just blatantly concern trolling.
Caerie, I’m sorry for what you’ve suffered. You’re not alone around here, and this community doesn’t let that victim-blaming shit fly. S’why I like it. *hugs if you want them*
If you think you are “upsetting” me with your ridiculous attacks you couldn’t be more wrong. Unfortunately I’m not that brittle. I wish I was and you could have chased me of by being “mean”. OMG.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
“please stop”
Of course. Do not disagree. It hurts our feelings. You are wrong and we are right. We have the Truth with a capital “T”.
The fact that people cannot discern the difference between “allowed” in the sense of not being physically prevented and “allowed” in the sense that your comments aren’t welcome and you should stop them simply proves the point.
Or maybe they do know the difference. However, the fact that that led to a whole slew of responses shows the utter triviality of what this has deteriorated into. Anything to avoid addressing any real issue. Play semantic word games. Slay me with your arguments.
Here’s the thing I don’t get about people like millssg99. Why don’t do direct your attention at the rapists? Instead of saying women should use more caution, why not say men should be less violent? What is your interest in protecting the rapist?
24 hours ago, at about half past three in the morning, I was wandering the streets of my city as a young woman, alone, wearing relatively skimpy clothing (above-the-knee dress, tights).
I know, right? What kind of idiot am I? Why on earth would I do that? Don’t I know how dangerous it is? Don’t I know to keep my meat covered, my valuables hidden, my virtue untarnished, etc, etc?
Bear with me five minutes.
I was going out with some friends. I was wearing a pretty standard outfit for someone going clubbing on a warm June evening. Met up with a very large mixed-gender group of friends, went to a bar until about midnight, then onto the club and stayed until closing. During the course of the night quite a lot of people left at various points for various reasons – I stayed with the main group as I didn’t want to go to the taxi rank on my own.
Six of us left the club at closing time, and decided to go to get a kebab. Three people wanted one from a nearby shop, and three others from the van literally twenty seconds’ walk away – we split up, and I went into the kebab shop, got some chips, then decided to see how the people at the trailer were getting on. Walked the twenty seconds to the trailer, they’d already gone, so I walked back – and somewhere in those forty seconds my friends in the kebab shop had also left. I had a look around for them, but couldn’t see anyone. Luckily, not too long after I got a call from one of them saying they were at a house a few streets away and I met up with them again fairly quickly. Still, for about fifteen minutes, I, a nice, sensible, well-raised girl, was one of the dreaded Women Dressed Skimpily Walking Alone At Night, the situation which launched a thousand well-meaning but ultimately deeply sexist analogies.
Two points:
Firstly, you can draw parallels with sluts and stereos and steaks all you like – even if you tattooed it on every woman’s head at birth that Good Girls Don’t Do That, and you would STILL end up with women in the situation I did. I certainly didn’t leave my flat that evening expecting to be there myself. However, every discussion based around what we can do to prevent this situation ending up with anyone getting hurt that talks about the dont-rape-y side of things ALWAYS gets derailed by people shouting ‘But it’s the fault of those stupid WOMEN for getting themselves into trouble!’. I would love these paragons of virtue to teach me how to never make a single mistake in my life, however tiny or seemingly inconsequential at the time, as they have clearly learned.
Secondly, these same individuals seem to think that women go through their lives in a blissful, ignorant bubble, with absolutely no situational awareness or understanding of the world. I was terrified. I knew exactly what the possible consequences of the situation could be. I knew exactly what people would think of me if anything had happened. I knew exactly what email would be sent around my college the next morning, telling us all to please please be more careful at night, to stay with someone at all times and to keep ourselves safe.
I knew all these things, but knowing them didn’t make my skirt any longer or the night any lighter. So could we please have at least one conversation about rape which doesn’t involve ‘well, those ladies could solve all those problems but just knowing FACTS about DANGEROUS SITUATIONS, amirite?’
She seems to believe that she and her friends can be safe by taking precautions and looking out for each other.
Yep. It’s this whole denial thing. Always important to maintain that wall of difference between you and the victims, so you can remain perfectly certain that you’ll never be one of them. And even if you were, you’d always react with perfect rationality and self-empowerment, Not Like Those Other Girls™.
Amaclean is not socknumber99. She’s rather less whiny and preachy, and more personally confused, than the other denialists in the thread. She seems to believe that she and her friends can be safe by taking precautions and looking out for each other. She’s sadly wrong, but she’s also a teenager and naive. At least I really hope she’s just naive, and not in denial – as Just_A_Lurker notes is a possibility.
I really truly help so too. I hope for youth and naivete so that it can be grown out of and become an ally. I do not, however, take back my harshness. Harshness helped me learn, it’s help others here and several nice places were linked to in the thread.
I hope for the best but expect the worst. No holds bar.
Different people use different tactics, I do not hold that against you. You aren’t tone trolling me and I’m not calling you to be more vile. If she does truly get it soon with all the education we give, she won’t hold it against me or anyone else.
I’ve thought I don’t even know how many times, “Man, I wish I’d listen to them. No wonder they were so harsh. I deserved it for that shit.”
Cipher@111 Thank you. I’ve lurked here for a while and that’s exactly what I like about the commenters here. It’s like having a weight lifted off my chest just to see so much reason in one place.
The fact that people cannot discern the difference between “allowed” in the sense of not being physically prevented and “allowed” in the sense that your comments aren’t welcome and you should stop them simply proves the point.
The fact that you say “not allowed” when you mean “unwelcome” shows what a shining and excellent communicator you are.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
You’re missing an important point, fuckwit. You can say whatever your little heart desires. And the rest of us can do exactly the same thing. You can spout all the victim-blaming shit you want and nobody (except PZ, but you’ve got to work at pissing him off) can stop you. Likewise, after your done your dumbass rants, we can refute your bullshit (subject to the same PZ imposed restrictions).
624
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
What have you done to address any serious issue other than berate people for not taking precautions that they already take and then ignoring them when they tell you they don’t work? What contribution have you made to this conversation other than being a privileged, arrogant wankstain?
The fact that people cannot discern the difference between “allowed” in the sense of not being physically prevented and “allowed” in the sense that your comments aren’t welcome and you should stop them simply proves the point.
Why don’t do direct your attention at the rapists? Instead of saying women should use more caution, why not say men should be less violent? What is your interest in protecting the rapist?
Haven’t you learned anything yet? Men can’t control themselves. They are hormonal beasts who lusts can’t be tamed or stopped by anyway except for using their huge cocks for hours inside a vagina.
It’s all the dirty women’s fault for not knowing their place is always beneath the cock and denying nature.
I was being all rhetorical you know. ;) It brings me back to the point I was trying make earlier when cupcake accused people of group think. What he is saying isn’t suddenly profound. It’s old. It’s tired. It was ingrained into you by our rape culture. It’s like how great great grand uncle Cracker von Patriarch tried to fight sexism and racism by giving them hugs. Yes, Millssg99 I am accusing you of being allies to rapists. By diverting attention away from rapist and rape culture and putting blame on the victims, you have made yourself an ally to rapists. So excuse you if people are rude to you or if people are attacking you, because there is no reason for them to coddle to rape culture.
Here’s the thing. Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to. However they have identified themselves as believing that anyone who suggests reasonable precautions is blaming the victim and supporting rape culture. Whether the people here think reasonable people can disagree on that, I happen to believe they can. That is the part of the comments I disagreed with so that is why I am directing my attention to that here.
Here is what I don’t get. Why do people think they can make comments that other people can’t disagree with, and thus must direct their attention elsewhere?
You have be disagreeing all night.
Others have been disagreeing.
What do you think this conversation should look like?
.
.
by the way
.
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
Here is what I don’t get. Why do people think they can make comments that other people can’t disagree with, and thus must direct their attention elsewhere?
Dumbfuck you’ve been disagreeing this whole fucking time. You are fucking wrong. No one is going to let that shit slide. You want niceness or other dumbfucks to agree with you, you will only find that shit elsewhere.
Pharyngula is not the place for you. Society is not the place for you. Earth is not the place for you.
Go rectify that.
Here’s the thing. Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to.
You really are a piece of work, asswipe. If you can’t find rapists here, then why don’t you cruise down to your local bar and watch the PUAs ply their trade? You’ll find a fair number of rapists and wannabe rapists there. If you want to converse with rapists, then hie down to the rape place.
Why do people think they can make comments that other people can’t disagree with, and thus must direct their attention elsewhere?
You mean, why don’t the victims of rape, who’ve been socialised and traumatised to scrutinise every aspect of their behaviour leading up to their assault, treat the conversation like an abstract exercise in debate the way you do?
Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to.
“Well, since I can’t find any rapists, the best thing to do is to suggest to actual rape victims a few handy ideas off the top of my head for avoiding rape, whether they’re relevant or not.
Because really, I’m just bored on a Friday evening/Saturday morning and am looking for an argument to kill some time with.”
Thank you to everyone who’s told their stories and everyone who’s posted links and everyone who’s rebutted all of those same old tired arguments.
I’m an abuse and rape survivor and I’ve never been able to articulate what is so wrong with people saying that the way to “prevent rape” is to not dress slutty, not go out alone, not drink, etc, etc. It would either make me incoherent with rage or just send me into silent misery.
Even though I knew it was wrong, I couldn’t find the words to explain exactly how and why. You’ve given me the words I’ve desperately needed.
Thank you.
Unlurking again. Because this here is what it’s about, this. What happened to me happened a long time ago, and I would never have imagined myself telling a group of near-strangers all about it when I was, er, a not-entirely-old not-entirely-man. I can only do it because others before me told theirs, and I saw other people being receptive, kind, and justifiably angry.
So I wanted to highlight this and say if anything I said was helpful, I am glad you spoke up about it, Caerie.
So, mills, can you tell us what Ogvorbis, erik, and Jafafa failed to do to prevent their respective rapes?
Or are you going to continue bitching how mean and terrible and Borg-like we are for not bending over to kiss your ass for making your important, yet insultingly patronizing precautions for rape prevention?
Anything to avoid addressing any real issue. Play semantic word games. Slay me with your arguments.
Look, here’s the issue:
It’s nearly impossible to discuss the underlying societal problems that cause rape to be so common and so often trivialized without some yahoo jumping in (seventh comment this time) suggesting that women can do various things to make themselves safer.
We’re trying to talk about the underlying causes–either you’re off-topic or you actually think rape is caused by lack of precautions. Which would you prefer?
Also, assclam that would make the world a better place by dying soon:
Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to.
You say that like it’s a bad thing. This is a safe place for me and many others due to no fucking tolerance of such bullshit.
You clearly didn’t fucking read any links. If you had, you’d known rapist don’t say “Hey I’m a rapist” and that a lot of them don’t even think that what they did was rape.
That loud slapping noise you just heard was the sound of several billion women worldwide facepalming with the sudden realization that “Hey, all I’ve got to do is take precautions and I won’t get raped!” And several million men saying to themselves, “Fuck, the game is over.”
[sorry, I got through about half the thread and then refreshed, and still the trolls are trolling. Fuck but some people are deliberately stupid.]
BTW, in case it’s not completely clear “I feel sympathy for Amaclean” is NOT remotely the same as “Stop arguing with her!” or even “Don’t be so harsh.” She has two chances to grow out of her naivete: listening to other people, and real life experience.
I’m personally not comfortable with being harsh to people who I think have a chance. I can barely bring myself to be rude to trolls, and usually I do so only in an indirect sarcastic manner rather than directly to them. But that’s me, and I wouldn’t be hanging about here if I didn’t appreciate and cheer for the direct take-no-shit fighters.
However they have identified themselves as believing that anyone who suggests reasonable precautions is blaming the victim and supporting rape culture.
Because women (and men) who have been raped have a different perspective. I understand that it’s difficult to see from your un-experienced position. But insisting you are right when people with the experience tell you are wrong makes you look like a sadist. The first step in really making this better is not putting a band aid on it. It is “you” realizing that you can dismantle the the meme.
Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to.
Dipshit I was talking about rapists and rape culture in general.
Why do people think they can make comments that other people can’t disagree with, and thus must direct their attention elsewhere?
No one said you can’t disagree. But here is the thing, why is it when people say stupid shit and they get called out for their shit, the accuse the other side of “not allowing them to disagree”? Your basic ass is allowed to be a rapist apologist all you want, just don’t complain when people rightfully give you shit for it.
Here’s the thing. Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to.
mills, why are you that brain-damaged stupid to think that someone would out themselves as having committed a felony solely for the purpose of having you lecture them with your insultingly inane talking points?
Oh, wait, you’re being a snotty, sarcastic asshole. My mistake.
BTW, in case it’s not completely clear “I feel sympathy for Amaclean” is NOT remotely the same as “Stop arguing with her!” or even “Don’t be so harsh.” She has two chances to grow out of her naivete: listening to other people, and real life experience.
I’m personally not comfortable with being harsh to people who I think have a chance. I can barely bring myself to be rude to trolls, and usually I do so only in an indirect sarcastic manner rather than directly to them. But that’s me, and I wouldn’t be hanging about here if I didn’t appreciate and cheer for the direct take-no-shit fighters.
(Just in case if this was brought on by my comment.)
You were perfectly clear to me. I get that you weren’t saying going easy or shaking your finger at those of us who were. I was just clarifying my position since my first comment about it wasn’t very straight forward. I didn’t want anyone to think I waffled and took back my harshness.
“By diverting attention away from rapist and rape culture and putting blame on the victims”
I have never once put the blame on victims. I’ve said the perpetrators are 100% to blame. You are attributing a false position to me.
Blame used here in the sense of moral blame. People are conflating two different things. 1) the actions one might reasonably take to reduce the likelihood of something happening to them. 2) The blame or responsibility for the crime.
I have never once said and would never say someone deserves to be raped because they took some action. However to say that given the reality of the world and there are people who commit crimes, there is nothing one could do to reduce the likelihood they would be a victim is in my opinion a ludicrously false position.
To point this out is not blaming victims. You can both blame the perpetrator and promote safe behavior. In the end everyone makes their own choice. It just so happens I’m generally a skeptic of the modern trend towards promoting almost infinite safety. I think much of that is nonsense. One has to live and cannot be holed up behind bolted doors all the time. However I think the that that people can and should take reasonable precautions. Whatever they do is up to ultimately up to them.
If you define blame as whatever series of cause and effect from the beginning of time that all together ultimately led to the criminal act, then of course by that definition I’m blaming the victim and all of past history of the universe along with it.
Some people have pointed out here that no matter what happened before or what the victim did, that before he commits the act the rapist makes a choice. I agree. In that sense he is completely to blame. He could have chosen not to do it. He deserves the punishment and the victim deserves the sympathy.
Unless I’ve miscounted, I think there aretwelve people posting in this thread alone who have, in this thread, identified as sexual assault or rape survivors. Anyone want to verify?
And for mills, it’s about “debate tactics” and “triviality.”
Gyeong Hwa says:
15 June 2012 at 9:46 pm
Here’s the thing I don’t get about people like millssg99. Why don’t do direct your attention at the rapists? Instead of saying women should use more caution, why not say men should be less violent? What is your interest in protecting the rapist?
I’m not millssg99, although we’ve been saying pretty much the same thing. I don’t think mills has said what you claim, and I know I haven’t.
If the purpose of this thread is to deplore rape and rapists, I herebye deplore-deplore-deplore. If the purpose is to change Christian America’s perception of the rapists and the raped, I agree-agree-agree. However, I’ve seen no proposals on how to accomplish that in the near future or even in the distant future. That figures.
If tbis thread is about ‘in a perfect world, women shouldn’t have to take precautions,’ I also agree-agree-agree.
In the meantime, the world isn’t perfect. In the real world, the the relatively small burden of taking precautions is far preferable to the possibility of very large consequences from not doing so.
Will precautions prevent ALL rapes. Of course not — just as defensive driving won’t prevent ALL crashes. But in both cases, precautions move the odds.
And, so no one misunderstands, I hate-hate-hate rapists.
However to say that given the reality of the world and there are people who commit crimes, there is nothing one could do to reduce the likelihood they would be a victim is in my opinion a ludicrously false position.
I’ve told you some ideas that I have for how people can reduce the likelihood they’ll be a victim. Mine are more evidence-based than yours. Why don’t you address them?
If the purpose of this thread is to deplore rape and rapists, I herebye deplore-deplore-deplore.
Right now? Dealing with your stupidity is the purpose of this thread. You are rape culture. Right now, in this thread. You. You are lecturing, if I counted correctly, at least twelve survivors of sexual assault or rape, on how they ought to take Reasonable Precautions. In the face of being told, by them and their allies, that what you are doing is harmful and compounds the effects of trauma, as well as lending camouflage to rapists by feeding into bullshit narratives of how rape happens.
First of all, to everybody here who has talked openly about having been raped, and especially to Jafafa Hots: I am horribly sorry.
Jenny:
Same for gutter language. I automatically discount the opinion of anyone who does that.
It was already pointed out to you, you useless piece-of-shit tone troll, that you were arguing against your own position; thank you for confirming that you’re vapid as well as stupid.
Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters.
♫ One of these things… ♬
Yes, let’s all do everything we can to eradicate rape and eradicate condescention towards others of either gender.
♫ … is not like the other… ♬
Oh, and by the way, there are more than two genders.
trollofreason:
…“found Jesus” to the point where he tattooed a crucifix across his forehead.
O_o
Cipher:
It would pretty definitely reduce rape, if women spent all their time in small locked rooms with no one else in them. But that would be terrible, right?
Yes, but mainly because then teh menz couldn’t get laid and it would be awful that women were so untrusting of them.
I not only would ban you, I’d IP check and do anything I could to out you because I’d want everyone to know what a disgusting piece of shit you are. I’d want everyone at a conference to know to keep distance from you and not to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are scum.
So much this.
Nerd:
Anybody surprised that Horace is a rape apologist?
Nope.
Audley:
The biker bar in my town has the reputation for being the safest place to go have a drink.
On Rob Tarzwell’s FB page discussing the “upskirt” situation, a woman named Darlene Pineda writes,
I’ve been to a number of conferences–professional and interest-based–over many, many years. I have never seen behaviors at those that have been described here. I used to work for a major motorcycle company and let me tell you, they throw some wild parties. And if a guy was harassing anyone they’d have booted without thought. Sounds strange that being surrounded by dudes wearing leather and riding motorcycles is safer than being surrounded by skeptics.
Mills:
However, the fact that that led to a whole slew of responses shows the utter triviality of what this has deteriorated into.
I was going to say something witty about this but I don’t think there’s anything to add after Cipher’s responses.
Blame used here in the sense of moral blame. People are conflating two different things. 1) the actions one might reasonably take to reduce the likelihood of something happening to them. 2) The blame or responsibility for the crime.
If you think that making suggestions on how women might avoid rape is stupid how much more stupid is it to suggest to rapists that they might not rape ?
Do you really imagine rapists reading this thread and slapping themselves on the forehead as they realize that rape is wrong ?
Suggestions on how to avoid rape are at least potentially useful.
Check my post at 32.
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Amaclean also seems to have flounced, which is not good for her chances.
Well, Amaclean, if you are lurking (and I hope you are), there won’t be any hard feelings if your position changes. That has happened often enough and many regulars have battle scars to remember their stupidity about something. It’s rough and tumble here but tons of links and help if you do need it. I hope you understand why I and others held nothing back on you. You’ve seen the love, hugs and support we give to people suffering and we don’t take kindly to those who harm them. Such as rape apologists, whether it was intended to harm or not. Intent is not magic.
Mills, the “just take precautions” argument has been so shot to motes that pig-shitted obstinacy is your only excuse for continuing to support it. No one’s accusing you of standing by with a megaphone yelling “GO TEAM RAPISTS”, but the rapists have every reason to thank you for making it easier for them to get away with their crimes. For example, women who are overconfident in the efficacy of their “precautions” are an easier target, and a rapist on trial has a fighting chance of acquittal if enough jury members have bought into the “she should’ve done more to prevent it” meme.
Given that almost all rapists are bigger and stronger than their victims, and have probably planned the attack to prevent detection or escape, evading a rape attempt is a matter of dumb luck. Some people in this thread didn’t have that stroke of luck. Implying that it’s all very sad, but couldn’t they have done this or that, is a pure insult.
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Has Horace ever brought anything to a thread that wasn’t pompous tone trolling or condescension?
—
Daisy, no problem, I pouted for a few seconds and then figured out it was unintentional :)
Jafafa Hots, Eriktrips, everyone else who’s spoken openly about being raped. I’m so sorry, I wish I or anyone else could do or say anything that would help.
-
And Jenny and Mills and amaclean and the other horrors?
Where do the other 56% of the rapes take place?
That is fucking IT. We’re done. Get the hell out. Of humanity.
If you think that making suggestions on how women might avoid rape is stupid how much more stupid is it to suggest to rapists that they might not rape ?
So, informing other people about the situation of “rape culture,” or trying to educate people to not place blame or shame on rape victims is totally useless?
Do you really imagine rapists reading this thread and slapping themselves on the forehead as they realize that rape is wrong ?
No. Then why can’t you or the other rape apologists explain to Ogvorbis and the other rape victims currently on this thread where and what they did wrong when they were raped?
Suggestions on how to avoid rape are at least potentially useful.
How do these anti-rape suggestions help prevent rapists from raping people? Better yet, have these anti-rape suggestions ever prevented any rapes from occurring?
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Yes, clearly the only people who should discuss sexual assault are those who are completely and utterly emotionally removed from the topic. Much like those discussing female health and contraception should lack uteruses.
Yeah, you’d think so, but again it took seven comments to go from misogyny and cultural attitudes underlying the problem to “you should keep your ‘valuables’ locked up.” And shit like that happens every time an issue regarding women gets discussed.
Yeah, take precautions. But that wasn’t the topic here. Again, it’s either off-topic, and a derailment of what might have been a serious discussion, or, if offered as a solution, victim blaming. Neither is appreciated by the victims.
I’m thinking of a different Clint Eastwood movie than the one mentioned earlier here: Unforgiven, in which Clint is informed that he just shot an unarmed man.
“Well, he should’ve armed himself.”
677
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
Blame used here in the sense of moral blame. People are conflating two different things. 1) the actions one might reasonably take to reduce the likelihood of something happening to them. 2) The blame or responsibility for the crime.
So if your treatment of victims is the same regardless of whether they took “reasonable precautions” or not, then what the fuck are you arguing for here? We’ve already told you most women take your “reasonable precautions” and they don’t prevent rape; at best, they prevent rape in certain situations, and only through extreme action. For instance, never walking through an alley at 3 AM, as I believer Cipher has said more than once, will guarantee that one will never be raped in an alley at 3 AM. It’s fucking tautological, and it’s not even advice.
However to say that given the reality of the world and there are people who commit crimes, there is nothing one could do to reduce the likelihood they would be a victim is in my opinion a ludicrously false position.
Your amazing tipz only apply to stranger rape; people have already pointed out to you that stranger rape is incredibly fucking rare compared to acquaintance/familial/spousal rape. How would never walking through a dark alley at 3 AM prevent one from being raped if the rapist is one’s spouse? It doesn’t.
To point this out is not blaming victims. You can both blame the perpetrator and promote safe behavior.
And again, I have to point out that “you have to take responsibility for your behavior so you aren’t raped” and “the perpetrator gets 100% of the blame” are mutually fucking exclusive.
It just so happens I’m generally a skeptic of the modern trend towards promoting almost infinite safety.
Your strawmen would be more fun to knock down if you didn’t send them out already on fire.
If you define blame as whatever series of cause and effect from the beginning of time that all together ultimately led to the criminal act, then of course by that definition I’m blaming the victim and all of past history of the universe along with it.
“Step right up, folks, and watch the a-maaaaaaazing millssg99 waffle on about totally fucking absurd interpretations of what we’re saying!”
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Silencing Victims by Shoving StrawMen Inside Every Hole 101.
Ahhhhhhhh, nothing like a classic.It just smells so ripe and will make you puke every time guaranteed. I still remember my first time encountering this class, I still have nightmares from it.
And if you want to talk about “reasonable” precautions, I think, the first burden on you is to describe your proposed precaution and demonstrate that it actually works to prevent rape.
But commonsense and dark alleys and commonsense and big dogs and commonsense and get a big fucking gun and commonsense and anyway it’s always the victim’s fault for not using commonsense. At least that’s what Jenny tells us.
You’re making stuff up. I’ve not said anything of the kind. It’s never the victim’s fault.
I do think it’s wise to take precautions against all varieties of potential harm in a world where bad people undeniably exist.
I think you have the burden of quoting me, and of resisting the urge to do so inaccurately.
You know, the “women should take more precautions” argument is just privileged bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much precaution they take, people like women of color and transwomen are often assaulted and raped just for existing. If they dare to survive their trauma, there is a likely chance they are punished for surviving. If they don’t, people blame them with the “take more precautions” bullshit that you rape apologists love sprouting. It’s a fucking privilege and fuck up thing to tell women, especially WOC and transwomen, that they should use more precaution because even with that precaution our violent rape culture will still find a way to abuse them.
Why don’t you check the link that I included @32 ? The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
I am a 42 year old white male. I work in a health profession and compete as a powerlifter, which means that I am large for my height (270 lbs at average height). Which basically means I rarely worry about having to walk down the street by myself at night. I’m married, and with the positive influence of my wife I have always considered myself a feminist. She is smarter than I could ever hope to be and makes me a better man. In the sports field in which I work, misogyny is rampant and I have always tried to go out of my way to teach my athletes broader points of view. I really don’t know what I am talking about though, which has been made clear to me after reading many of the comments here.
I have been humbled by this thread, and especially so by your post. I haven’t truly understood what male privilege was until I read your comment at # 115. I usually lurk here, and at times have been astonished by the anger and frustration by some of the commenters. I wondered ‘where is this coming from?’…I just didn’t get it.
Now I do.
It’s never too late to learn something new…it’s never too late to improve yourself, and to be inspired.
So to all the posters here, who have been trying to educate others about the rampant sexism – thank you. Some are listening, and learning.
686
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
People usually don’t know that someone is going to rape them until they fucking do it. “Picking one’s social circle better” also implies that rapists are a “type” and it’s your fault for associating with one.
I had no idea one of my friends was going to rape my best friend until he did it, so is that my fault for not helping my friend “pick a better social circle”? Or is it my fault because they were both my friends and met at a party I held? I’m sorry I don’t have the GIGANTIC SPACE BRAIN necessary to tell who’s a rapist and who isn’t since rapists can be anyone.
Now do me a favor, cupcake, and throw yourself into a woodchipper.
People, seriously, trigger warning for those links at 32. The victim-blaming is overt, significantly more so than the dumbassery in this thread. For posting them, I’m returning horace to my killfile, and then I may need to go vomit.
You’re making stuff up. I’ve not said anything of the kind. It’s never the victim’s fault.
BULLSHIT. That’s not made up or a lie. Moron, we know what you said, this isn’t meatspace, everything is recorded. You lying, denying, worthless sack of fucking shit. The only thing I could you would be useful for is fertilizing the ground.
You do realize the words have meaning and repercussions right? There’s connotations and it leads the reader to think certain things after reading it. Like you say to a rape victim, “you should have had a big dog to protect you” it doesn’t fucking matter if you tell them it’s not their fault before or after that statement. They are going to hear that wonder “WTF What could I have done? Oh, I should have had a dog. I shouldn’t have let this happen. I should have been more cautious”.
Then you find said victim in deep depression hiding in their rooms never coming out and trying to kill themselves. Because you, every other fucking person and society in general is telling them “if you had done this, you could have prevented your rape”.
Don’t you dare call this story bullshit. I’ve fucking been there. I was told “it’s not your fault but you should be more careful and do this…”
I still fucking am since asshole like you keep spouting this bullshit in every fucking thread!
FUCK YOU.
You help make the world a terrible, terrible place.
Running away for the evening with tail between my legs whimpering. I just couldn’t take being voted onto “Team Rapists”. That was the take down argument from the brilliant rape victims advocates. No answer to that one. You should be proud.
The point here is that the victim of a crime should never be blamed for being a victim. It doesn’t matter if it’s a hot 20something walking down the street barely wearing enough clothes to cover their naughty bits, or a heavily armed and armored police officer. Anyone can be taken. Rape in particular has to be singled out, because there are just too many cases where blithering idiots allow excuses
It’s that attitude that needs to change.
As for this undercurrent I keep seeing here about “Hivemind” or “groupthink” — when the group is right there’s nothing wrong with groupthink.
eriktrips says:
15 June 2012 at 8:19 pm
::delurk::
How is it that certain commenters seem to be unable to comprehend that there do not exist any “reasonable” precautions that can be taken to prevent rape? All of the “common sense” ones are simplistic homilies ignorant of how and when the majority of rapes occur; any that would reliably work in the contexts in which rapes actually occur are so specific to individual situations that they too unpredictable to prescribe for given population; rapists are intelligent (relatively, at least) creatures who will change their tactics as conditions require to be able to do what they do.
No single precaution or combination thereof can prevent all bad people from doing bad tnings. However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
It’s up to each individual to decide what (if any) precautions are ‘reasonable.’
This is my absolute favorite list of Rape Prevention Tips. It gives me the happies every time I look at it. Unfortunately, my happies are somewhat diminished by the fact that when I shared it on an atheist forum, many men were terribly offended, giving me the sadz.
I stopped going to that forum when the Rebecca Watson elevatorgate thing blew up and they started calling her (and women who agreed with her) feminazis.
Sadz.
696
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
It’s up to each individual to decide what (if any) precautions are ‘reasonable.’
Clue-by-Four incoming:
Then they must figure that shit out for themselves and you proclaiming to any and all women not to walk out at night, regardless of their lives and circumstances, is not fucking helping by making those women feel bad since they can’t take that precaution, you preachy-self-righteous-know-it-all.
No single precaution or combination thereof can prevent all bad people from doing bad tnings. However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
It’s up to each individual to decide what (if any) precautions are ‘reasonable.’
Thank you Ogvorbis, Erik, Jafa, mouthyb, Gen, Illuminata, Nepenthe, Cipher, ladyh42, anna, and Caerie* for sharing your stories. It makes a difference, it really does. It puts a human face (even on the internet) to an abstract discussion, and it makes it possible to draw a clear line between those who are capable of compassion and those who are not.
A minor benefit that, considering the pain that is inherent in the events that you all went through. Know this though, some of us have heard your pain and while we can do nothing to alleviate it, we can keep it with us and use it as a spur to keep trying to make our world a better place even in the face of such obstinate, willful idiocy as displayed by horace, mills, oneplus and all their ilk.
*I’m sorry if I missed anyone, but I can’t go through again because now I’m crying.
And, so no one misunderstands, I hate-hate-hate rapists.
Hating rapists is assumed to be the default position. You really don’t need to state it unless you are trying to cover some sort of rape apologia. In fact, just about the only people who say things like this are, in my experience, rape apologists.
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Holy shit.
The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
jenny is here to tell us all that we should take Reasonable Precautions by doing whatever we think is a good idea.
THANKS JENNY
HAHAHAH
MY Reasonalbe Precaution is to go check my mail or take out my trash (morning or night) while wearing my PJ’s i.e. a tank top, no bra and boxers. That way I can tell everyone who stares and cat calls to fuck off and that I’m not interested. They every look at me next time I can call the cops for harassment! It’s sooo much easier knowing at least some people to avoid then being hyper vigilant all the time!
Why don’t you check the link that I included @32 ? The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
How effective was it effective in preventing rape? How come Ogvorbis, jafa and erik didn’t find it effective?
With ladyh42 and anna, whose posts I missed in my attempted roundup, my count of rape survivors being ‘splained to now stands at 14. In this thread alone.
Provoking An Attack Here’s another reason we’re not on the Christmas Card List of so many rape advocates. But a raw truth is that rape is often substituted for a man beating a woman senseless — as he would do to another man. He is attacking out of fury and rage over the woman’s actions. When the outrage of it being a sexual assault is removed, the pre-assault behavior of both parties is common to what is known as a FIGHT! And that old saw “It takes two to fight” comes home to roost. Putting it bluntly, there are certain behaviors that will get you attacked! The reason this link is on the Rape Page, is that after engaging in these behaviors it is not uncommon — like the loser of a fight — for the rape ‘victim’ to blame the attacker. When in fact, the assault could have been avoided!
Their advice on how to avoid “provoking” rape:
With that in mind, we’d like to give you Peyton’s the five causes of violence.
1) Don’t Insult Him
2) Don’t Challenge Him
3) Don’t Threaten Him
4) Don’t Deny It’s Happening
5) Give Him A Face Saving Exit (1)
With that in mind, we’d like to give you Peyton’s the five causes of violence.
1) Don’t Insult Him
2) Don’t Challenge Him
3) Don’t Threaten Him
4) Don’t Deny It’s Happening
5) Give Him A Face Saving Exit (1)
Horace. Please just off yourself. Fucking useless.
711
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
How come Ogvorbis, jafa and erik didn’t find it effective?
Also how come mouthyb, Gen, Illuminata, Nepenthe, Cipher, ladyh42, anna, Caerie and no doubt a bunch more lurkers who do not feel comfortable sharing their stories in public?
Oh I’m sorry horace, maybe it’s just the net making me tougher…after all according to your sight calling you such an asshead you now breath farts instead of oxygen probably means you’d rape me in person right? Horace why do you hate women enough to do this and why do you hate men enough to insult them in such a way?
When the outrage of it being a sexual assault is removed, the pre-assault behavior of both parties is common to what is known as a FIGHT! And that old saw “It takes two to fight” comes home to roost. Putting it bluntly, there are certain behaviors that will get you attacked!
For instance! SLEEPING IN YOUR BED! PAJAMAS are a common provocation to VIOLENCE! After sleeping in your bed gets you RAPED, you often feel like people shouldn’t rape you! But in fact, you could have avoided all that pain by just NOT GETTING YOURSELF RAPED!
Why don’t you check the link that I included @32 ? The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
………………
Because you can’t pick your family and people don’t recognize the signs of abuse until it’s too late. You don’t fucking get how predators work jackass. Try reading some of the links provided like Meet the Predators and They Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer.
With that in mind, we’d like to give you Peyton’s the five causes of violence.
1) Don’t Insult Him
2) Don’t Challenge Him
3) Don’t Threaten Him
4) Don’t Deny It’s Happening
5) Give Him A Face Saving Exit (1)
Guess what? I’ve done those fucking things, DOESN’T FUCKING WORK. It’s just more shit to pile unto the victims. Don’t fight back he’ll make it worse! then the cops say it never happened and have no evidence since you didn’t fight back…
However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
Yeah. We get that. Dar dar dar dar. But that’s not what we were fucking going to talk about.
Criminy. Try to talk about the underlying causes of a big problem, and people jump in with advice on how to ensure that problem happens to other people instead of you.
People wouldn’t get so fucking angry if this didn’t fucking happen all the fucking time.
than [sic] perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Okay, let’s discuss how Horace is a rape apologist and Jenny & mills prefer to blame rape victims rather than actually do something about the rape culture.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
And yet, here you are, completely allowed to post your pitiful drivel.
And when you do get banned, your posts will still remain. The ideas contained within them will still remain. Anyone and everyone will still be able to view those ideas, respond to them, or even agree with them in future posts.
In other words, the ideas will still be allowed, you pitiful liar.
Hey, Jenny, do you think you’d call it a reasonable precaution to avoid being alone in an elevator with a strange man at 4am when you’re in a foreign country? Just asking. Simple yes/no will do.
But commonsense and dark alleys and commonsense and big dogs and commonsense and get a big fucking gun and commonsense and anyway it’s always the victim’s fault for not using commonsense. At least that’s what Jenny tells us.
Did you see the most recent Mythbusters?
In knife versus gun, if the guy with the knife surprises you and charges you within a certain radius (which can extend as far out as 25 feet, depending on your relative strengths and reaction times), he will get into grappling distance (ie raping distance) before you can draw and fire your gun (and discounting the possibility that you might miss).
In an enclosed space, a gun offers almost zero advantage to the physically weaker party, even when that party is a trained, crack shot.
I guess you’ll also have to wear a chainmail undershirt and a chastity belt, just to be on the safe side, reasonably.
Note that this only applies to the “stranger in a dangerous place” scenario, which accounts for only a tiny minority of real world rapes.
So how does one take reasonable precautions that would work to prevent date rape?
Hire a retired FBI agent to psychologically profile all prospective dates?
Master the art of telepathy?
Do not eat or drink anything that has been out of your direct line of sight for more than 5 seconds while on a date?
My boss tells the story of a woman in an office building where she used to work. In the middle of the day, the woman was grabbed and dragged into a bathroom and raped. In broad daylight, in a populated office building.
My bosses co-workers were imagining all sorts of scenarios that made it the victim’s fault – no information, just woolgathering.
When she confronted them about it, one of them said something along the lines of:”she HAD to have done something to bring tthis on herself. Otherwise, it could happen to anybody. It could happen to me.”
Bingo. It can happen to anybody, anytime. But some people can’t handle that concept, so they hide their heads in the sand and repeat magic spells like dress codes and behavior codes, and times and places women should not be out and about. It’s as useless as incense and special water, but it makes them feel better, and they have to attack anyone who might break their precious little bubble.
However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
NAME a SPECIFIC example of a “reasonable” precaution, SHOW us the EVIDENCE that it changes the odds, SHOW us the quantification of HOW MUCH it changes the odds, and THEN we can talk about THAT SPECIFIC “reasonable” precaution and whether it is or is not reasonable or practical and whether talking about that SPECIFIC “reasonable” precaution is or is not, and in what circumstances, useful and not victim blaming.
SPECIFIC DETAILS, with EVIDENCE of effectiveness.
Or else shut up.
Or don’t, keep talking, and continue to reveal yourself to be a morally reprehensible excuse for a human being.
And also, don’t antagonise dudes by taking precautions in any way that they might notice.
Oh yeah, Alethea, I forgot about that part. The “offensive” part of Schrodinger’s Rapist wasn’t that women have to be hypervigilant around men because any man could be a rapist, it’s that a woman at some point may have considered that the resident Nice Guy on the thread could be a rapist, and he’d never ever do that in a million billion years because he’s so Nice!
Even Nice Guys manage to make it all about them; in fact, they seem peculiarly adept at it.
No single precaution or combination thereof can prevent all bad people from doing bad tnings. However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
It’s up to each individual to decide what (if any) precautions are ‘reasonable.’
I wasn’t going to add anything to this because others have said so much and said it so much better than I could. My heart hurts for those who bared themselves to try and help you understand and got shit on for their efforts.
The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless. It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.
All the precautions in the world didn’t help a 19yo friend who was raped in the bathroom of the fast-food joint where she worked. By a co-worker. At 4pm. While wearing an ugly ass polyester uniform.
None of your precautions helped the 52yo neighbor who was raped by another neighbor. In her home. While her kids were doing homework in another room.
None of your precautions would have helped my then 14-yo sister who was raped by a church deacon. In the pastor’s office. With 30 other teenagers within earshot.
None of your precautions helped me when I was the victim of an attempted rape 2 years ago that was stopped only by sheer fucking luck. At 10pm. In my own home.
Not one of those was reported. Because we feared the assholes like you who have told us over and over that only people who don’t take “reasonable precautions” are raped. Because we worried what people would say about us. Because we worried about how people would justify what our attackers did to us.
Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you. It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.
Bingo. It can happen to anybody, anytime. But some people can’t handle that concept, so they hide their heads in the sand and repeat magic spells like dress codes and behavior codes, and times and places women should not be out and about.
Human beings do this all the time, of course, with all things. Doubtless an evolved response. In fact it is probably linked to the evolution empathy. When we learn of something bad happening to someone else, the first thing we’ll instinctively do is put ourselves in the other’s shoes and imagine it happening to us. The second thing is trying to think of how we could avoid it happening to us, and third thing is imagining what we could do and they didn’t do that led to the bad thing happening to them, and would prevent the bad thing from happening to us. And the immediate survival benefit that selects for this trait is of course that in those situations where we could prevent the bad thing from happening to us, it helps us not have bad things happen to us.
This of course means that the response is selected to be biased in the direction of agency, so that we will ALWAYS think that there is something we can do to prevent the bad thing from happening to us.
This instinct is probably actually responsible for the origin of religions and religious rituals.
And of course, the other corollary of this is that it demonstrates just how profoundly selfish the response of people like jenny, horace, and mills is. It is an instinctive projection of I don’t want this to happen to me.
All about keeping oneself safe, dressed up in the false clothes of caring about the victim.
Because what practical use is talking about precautions to the victim AFTER the event? You got a time machine for the victim to go back in time and change the past?
And what use are generalities without specific examples to anyone else?
Oh, and you also completely ignored the context I provided above, about how some women live and/or work in “sketchy” areas, and/or maybe work late at night and don’t have the luxury of staying indoors in a “nice” middle-class neighborhood after dark like a “good girl” should.
People like, oh–POSTAL WORKERS.
I worked late at night for the majority of my postal career. For some jobs, I went to work at 6 pm or 7, and got off at 2.30 – 3.30 in the morning. I had to go out into a parking lot that usually had no gate, no guards–it was totally open, and just off major freeways (I had more than one job like this). And a lot of them were in shitty, shitty neighborhoods.
You hope that there’s so much activity of people going in and out, trucks being loaded and unloaded, arriving and departing, that someone would be less likely to rape.
Oddly enough, more than one of my friends was raped inside postal facilities by one of her co-workers
Funny, that jibes with the goddamned data!
73% of women are raped by someone she knows:
38% of rapists are friends or acquaintances.
28% are intimate partners.
7% are relatives.
And of course the NEXT effect of talking about “precautions” is telegraphing to the victim, and all victims, that they don’t matter anymore.
Precautions, even if effective, only help other people who have not yet been raped, avoid being raped.
So the more effort you focus on this, the more you’re telling the rape victims that you no longer care about them. They’re just statistics now, damaged goods, lost assets.
Not people anymore, just illustrative examples so that others can protect themselves in the future.
And also, don’t antagonise dudes by taking precautions in any way that they might notice.
Holy mother of cheese, THIS. Because if I’m walking alone at night, a guy starts walking towards me, and I get nervous, I am a horrible man hating feminazi who is no better than a racist. But if I’m walking alone at night, a guy starts walking towards me, and then he rapes me, then what was I doing out by myself at night? Why wasn’t I carrying a weapon? What was wrong with me that I wasn’t taking Reasonable Precautions?
So how does one take reasonable precautions that would work to prevent date rape?
Hire a retired FBI agent to psychologically profile all prospective dates?
Master the art of telepathy?
Do not eat or drink anything that has been out of your direct line of sight for more than 5 seconds while on a date?
Don’t go on dates?
All of those, or none of them, or perhaps something else, depending on who the victim is. As Gyeong Hwa points out:
You know, the “women should take more precautions” argument is just privileged bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much precaution they take, people like women of color and transwomen are often assaulted and raped just for existing.
TRIGGER WARNING EXTREME EXAMPLES OF RAPE CULTURE TO FOLLOW
It’s not just privilege in action, it’s patriarchy enforcement in action, directly. Because the definition of what’s wanton or loose or who’s insufficiently emphatic in her rejections changes moment by moment, and women certainly don’t get to define it. It’s whatever is needed at that moment to restrict women’s ability just to move about in the world freely. That’s definitely privilege. When I lived in India for five months, I lost a lot of freedom of movement just by being a woman. The sexual harassment on the street is just unbelievable, and I’ve heard it’s gotten worse in the ten years since I was there. I have in fact wandered down many a dark alley and down a one-lane dirt road late at night, or into the early morning rather, taken trains, hitchhiked, banged guys a few hours after meeting them, taken drugs, dressed sexy, dressed like a slut, worn a bikini. Those all happened after I was assaulted, though. Well, OK, I did get high a few times before I left for Europe.
Back on topic: I certainly didn’t appreciate til then what a privilege it is just to move about without hindrance. On Matt Dillahunty’s FB page, there are idiots arguing that it’s ludicrous to say that rape and street harassment are on a continuum of misogynist behavior. I invite anyone who agrees with them to check out iHollaback Mumbai and see what they have to say about the connection between street harassment and sexual violence.
Both street harassment and rape “prevention tips,” in reality rape apologia in the form of instructions, serve to keep women out of public spaces and thus out of politics, organizing, business opportunities, and just plain fun.
Years ago it would be unbelievable, that women could even vote, or that the crime rate would drop for decades with no apparent cause. I see no reason not to believe that harassment can be, if not totally eradicated from our lives, at least drastically reduced.
Also, I have to wonder: in places like Egypt, where 85% of women have experienced street harassment, or in South Africa, where there’s been a rape epidemic lately, partly spurred by a strong believe in “corrective” rape (vis. the radio host), you have to wonder what Mills’ or Jenny’s advice would be to those women: “Don’t dress so Egyptian” maybe? Except 93% of foreign women report experiencing harassment while visiting Egypt.
Apologies for the long and rambley post, this has been building up all day.
Jesus fucking Christ, I need to stop reading that website @32. It’s unbelievably awful.
4) We have done both formal and informal interviews with hundreds of women who have been raped by people they knew. What we discovered in approximately 80% of the assaults the woman initiated the physical violence. That is to say that even though he touched her first the woman either threw the first blow or broke free from the grip with extreme force. In these circumstances, those actions provoke an attack. When advocates hear this they immediately start squealing about us blaming the victim. We’re not. Our problem isn’t with the fact that she engaged in a course of violent behavior. Our problem is that she didn’t break his jaw. Had she done that, there’s a good chance that he never would have mustered an attack. By throwing an ineffective blow and/or defensive reaction without a counter attack is the green light for him to attack. Anger and words are not going to work to stop someone in such circumstances. Unfortunately, most women do not have the experience with violence to engage in the explosive action necessary to stop a man in such a state. Instead, by using less effective measures they give an attacker the green light.
Emphasis in the original text.
And note, women, that “[breaking] free from the grip with extreme force” counts as initiating the physical violence. Because if he grabs you won’t let you go, it’s not violence. You should, you know, refer back to Peyton’s the five causes of violence! But then, it would have apparently been fine for her to provoke an attack by initiating the violence if she’d just been MORE violent.
There aren’t enough curse words to hold my contempt for that site and the fools who wrote it.
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
I’m having trouble parsing this any other way than “Please save being upset for some topic that’s actually, yanno, important or something! Sheesh! It’s no big deal, just a little rape!”
*shudder*
. . .
And for those people who are invoking Orwellian Thought Police imagery:
The regulars here don’t want you to stop posting. They want you to stop posting things that are stupid, wrong, or cruel. Especially after they have let you know that what you’re posting is stupid, wrong, or cruel.
Being free to post stupid, wrong, or cruel things is not the same as being free from being told (correctly) that they are stupid, wrong or cruel.
Take it from someone who has posted stupid and wrong stuff (I’ve managed to avoid cruel, fortunately), and been called on it. It’s not the end of the world. Just pause, and say to yourself, Hmm, these people know a lot more about this subject than I do. Maybe I better shut the hell up and listen to them. You can always go back to being stupid, wrong or cruel after the break.
So I had just completed AIT at DLI and everybody was in the midst of packing and moving out. My roomie had moved out. The barracks were mostly empty. Then a higher-ranking NCO came to the room—-and shut the door behind him. Married. Pleasant. Professional. He had seen me at the mall wearing a knee-length skirt instead of the usual BDUs. Notice how I specify the length? Yeah. You get told in so many ways you have to prove yourself.
So the door is locked. And I’m all alone. And he starts moving in, murmuring how hot I am, and I know he’s married and if, somehow, somebody believed me, and he got convicted, I still couldn’t handle it. One look in his eyes and I know he’s telling himself that this isn’t happening, or that it’s my fault for being young and all that, but I know one thing for sure: he’s lying to himself. His whole world—his rank, his marriage, his career, his reputation—-were based on that lie. Confront him with that lie, frankly and flatly, and his whole world would shatter. He’d feel threatened. Like anybody would believe me. He had the absolute power to ruin my life and send me to Leavenworth if he accused me of insubordination or lying. Get that? Yeah. I could have been charged.
The air changed in that room. It turned from vapor to hot liquid, and he kept getting closer, muttering how cute I was, whatever. And I had just passed the final Russian exams at 2, 2+, 3, but suddenly I was the dumbest person there was. If he had to look in the mirror and see what I saw, it would kill him. Worse yet would be if he feared anyone else seeing it. Worst of all, I realized completely that a whole world of men like this existed: men who did this to women, and then just shut down that part of their brain, and sounded convincing when they denied it. The thing that stuck with me was how dangerous it was to put a name to it, to what he was trying to do. Name it and the illusion was over.
I spoke fluent Russian at that point, but I was abruptly the stupidest person on the planet. I have no idea what I said. I babbled, I wriggled away, I sidled here and there, I dodged, I made up laundry excues, I just filled up all that dangerous empty space with nonsense. And I got to the door somehow without looking scared or sweaty or anything but fantastically stupid, unlocked it, and ran.
When I recounted this story later, somebody said, in not so many words, “Oh, so that’s (why you hate men so much, you bitter feminazi bitch) blah blah blah euphemisms that they think give them plausible deniability even though the hatred seethes out of them.” Like him, they give themselves excuses. They always use other words. They hate you for calling it for what it is. And it’s obvious that you can’t hate this culture and everything it does to women unless you’ve been driven crazy by a rape or an attempted one, which is just one more way they tell women fuck you. You’re not allowed to get angry about rape if you haven’t been raped, but if you have been raped then you’re crazy and you hate men and are probably lying anyway. It’s kind of like how you can’t have people of color talking about racism because they’re too close to it, and only white men are logical enough and distant enough to discuss it.
I cannot think of one single woman I know who has not been harassed, catcalled, raped, assaulted, groped, and sneered at for daring to call these things by their real names. And it might very well be more than once in this culture.
I’m sure your scrupulousness will mean a lot to the victim blamers here Sally.
Holy fucking fuck. I’m not sure what else there is to add here as the regular commentariat has done the usual amazing job of responding to despicable human beings with far more reasoned arguments and facts than they deserve (none) and exactly the right amount of venom (as much as is humanly possible).
I’m bookmarking that “rape prevention” site to use as an example in the future. The metaphor of choice there seems to be that the rapist is a speeding train and you can’t stop him so you’d better get off the tracks. letting yourself pass out at a party is compared to sleeping on the tracks. The only problems of course is that the entire fucking world is a rail yard, and the trains are silent and invisible.
Maybe it’s redundant now but I am also a victim. I was molested repeatedly by a man who was the closest thing to a father I ever had. I almost never discuss it, probably because I still haven’t been able to forgive myself for letting it happen. I was too young to understand what was happening but I can’t help but cast myself as a “willing” participant. I was in preschool when it started. My family broke ties with him a few years later and when I was 11 I told my mom (I didn’t volunteer the information, she asked. apparently she had suspicions) and we even tried to press charges. I was interviewed by a DA who declined to press charges since the word of a child is not reliable enough (especially when it’s “just” fondling). The only consolation I can take is that if any of the bastard’s other victims ever come forward there is at least *some* paper trail on the creep now so maybe they’ll have better luck.
I wonder what precautions I should have taken?
Fuck. Thanks to everyone else who has shared their stories. It helps.
Dysomniak, in any event between a child and an adult, the adult is at fault. You didn’t do anything wrong. Adults have the duty to protect the innocence and trust of kids. He screwed up his job. Your job was to be a kid.
Changing the topic but bouncing off something you said—-rapist apologists always act like men are objects that women have to maneuver around, or just factor into their lives, because men are things, men are forces of nature, and women are just required to adjust. And if you don’t circle carefully around men—-but don’t let them see that you’re doing it, OMG!——and avoid them, then it’s your fault. It’s like going out into a thunderstorm without an umbrella and expecting not to get wet, even though you (the general you) were so uppity as to refuse to take an umbrella, because you want the rain to avoid you. If that doesn’t show how highly men regard themselves, I don’t know what does.
BCPA_Lady (now appearing in MN!) says:
15 June 2012 at 11:59 pm
jenny6833a:
No single precaution or combination thereof can prevent all bad people from doing bad tnings. However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
It’s up to each individual to decide what (if any) precautions are ‘reasonable.’
I wasn’t going to add anything to this because others have said so much and said it so much better than I could. My heart hurts for those who bared themselves to try and help you understand and got shit on for their efforts.
The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless. It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.
All the precautions in the world didn’t help a 19yo friend who was raped in the bathroom of the fast-food joint where she worked. By a co-worker. At 4pm. While wearing an ugly ass polyester uniform.
None of your precautions helped the 52yo neighbor who was raped by another neighbor. In her home. While her kids were doing homework in another room.
None of your precautions would have helped my then 14-yo sister who was raped by a church deacon. In the pastor’s office. With 30 other teenagers within earshot.
None of your precautions helped me when I was the victim of an attempted rape 2 years ago that was stopped only by sheer fucking luck. At 10pm. In my own home.
Not one of those was reported. Because we feared the assholes like you who have told us over and over that only people who don’t take “reasonable precautions” are raped. Because we worried what people would say about us. Because we worried about how people would justify what our attackers did to us.
Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you. It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.
If you wish to express disagreement, please have the courtesy and HONESTY to disagree with someting I’ve said. Don’t rebut all manner of stuff I didn’t say.
“The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless.”
Yeah, sure, like defensive driving is all but useless.
“It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.”
Agreed. So what’s YOUR solution?
Complaining on and on about how impossible it (supposedly) is to stay safe isn’t going to help.
“Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you.”
I’ve never said that. I’ve repeatedly emphasized that precautions can’t eliminate rape, but can change the odds. Changing the odds is worth some degree of effort.
“It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.”
Changing the odds in my favor isn’t dangerous to me. Just the opposite.
For those who have already been raped, moving the odds may prevent being raped again.
You might better understand my point if you were to review the material you got in 8th or 9th grade about probability theory, although I’m certain your teachers didn’t call it that.
And before you criticize my recommendations, perhaps you should come up with our own recommended approach to a full or partial solution.
Until you do, you’re just futilely wringing your hands.
In defensive driving, you fucking moron, you get two people in two huge inanimate objects. Oh, and let’s ignore sexism and size differentials and blatant power differences. Let’s ignore all that so you can piss on rape victims to make yourself feel safe.
You’ll get respect when you’ve earned it. You’re just a rapist apologist who’s shitting all over victims and preening about how great you are.
Amphiox, I related quite a bit to your post about empathy. In particular, “When we learn of something bad happening to someone else, the first thing we’ll instinctively do is put ourselves in the other’s shoes and imagine it happening to us.” Beyond that, I find that I simultaneously imagine myself beside the actual victim, almost in an ethereal sense. It is such a helpless feeling. I feel like I wish I could do something to stop it – to prevent it – but I can only watch.
I never cried so hard in my entire life as when I read about the Tori Stafford case. I don’t know if any of you are familiar with it. Google it if you don’t know. I cried so hard because I could relate my childhood self to that poor little girl while simultaneously floating next to her through her whole experience. From the smiles and promises of puppies to the cries, screams, pain, and death. It brings tears to my eyes every time I think of it. I wish there was something, some precaution that could have saved that child. But I know now that truly there isn’t. To a certain extent, women must feel a helplessness similar to that ghost that walks next to Tori Stafford in her final moments. Maybe that doesn’t make sense; maybe I’m rambling.
I just wanted to say that I truly am sorry if I hurt the feelings of any sexual assault victims. I realize my words may have come off wrong, and my intent was never to make a victim feel that they deserved the terrible things that happened to them. I got carried away in the heat of the debate, which was wrong.
I will be more careful in the future as to how I phrase things, and to keep in mind the statistics about rape being primarily a crime committed in homes and innocuous places — I apologize if I came across as condescendening.
Please though, I think it would be more helpful to your opinions if you kept the discussion a little more civil, and treated people who have different opinions from you with more respect. I think I, and a few others in this thread, have been misunderstood, and our words taken out of proportion and our intentions and beliefs skewed. I would never, ever, blame the victim of a crime, and I don’t believe anyone on here would either. I almost felt like I was arguing about something completely different from what you all were rebutting.
Perhaps it’s because I still live at home with mum and dad, but they always tell me things like “don’t go running too far off campus,” “don’t walk back from the music department in the middle of the night,” and so on. I honestly have never felt anything but a little annnoyed at these requests, and I heeded them because people do get mugged, two girls have been sexually assaulted (at least that have reported it) in the last few weeks at my university, one that was walking alone back to her apartment — so they seemed reasonable. And I still believe they are reasonable things for a caring parent or friend to tell me.
That being said, I see now how that sort of statement can come across as cruel or condescending when put out as an “anti-rape” advisory, since a lot of rapes occur that aren’t preventable by the victim. I think the real issue we should all focus on here is how to get at the problem from its roots, making it so women (and men and children) should not be afraid or ashamed to report what happened to them by making it clear it is never their fault, and by enforcing punishments for rape, and also hopefully, someday getting people who do rape to realize what a horrible thing it is they do.
Anyways, my heart goes out to the victims. I can’t say I can empathize, but I can still care, and again, I have a very close family member who was sexually abused as a child, so I have seen what scars it can leave.
Have a good night everyone. And jenny and mills, I know you guys aren’t “despicable human beings” just like I am not, so don’t let that get to you.
but I am also a victim. I was molested repeatedly by a man who was the closest thing to a father I ever had. I almost never discuss it, probably because I still haven’t been able to forgive myself for letting it happen. I was too young to understand what was happening but I can’t help but cast myself as a “willing” participant.
I’m so sorry.
For what it’s worth, I have some inkling of what you mean, about the fact that you can’t help but feel like you had some agency or choice in the situation, when in fact you were a child and it was not your fault, not even possible for it to be your fault. That’s one of the worst things an abuser can do to you, to make you feel like you were complicit when you couldn’t possibly have been. And it’s one of the horrible callous cruelties of people talking about how it wasn’t your fault but what if, but did you consider, but maybe, but but but. Even when there’s no possible way you could have done anything about it, you still replay in your head, running through every way you could have stopped it, every way he maybe didn’t mean it, every way it could have been your fault. And they think they’re telling us about Reasonable Precautions because they caaare. Fuckers.
And before you criticize my recommendations, perhaps you should come up with our own recommended approach to a full or partial solution.
We’ve only been doing that since the OP, you nit. Raise awareness of the pointless victim-blaming game that women are forced to play, and put the focus back where it belongs – on the rapists, who are mostly acquaintances and family operating with impunity because of victim-blaming and false narratives.
I just wanted to say that I truly am sorry if I hurt the feelings of any sexual assault victims.
Emphasis mine. So if someone wasn’t offended, you’re not sorry. So, you don’t care that shit you said was offensive and victim-blaming and immoral, you’re just mad that someone got upset and called you on your shit.
I apologize if I came across as condescendening.
That’s right, reiterate that not-pology!
Please though, I think it would be more helpful to your opinions if you kept the discussion a little more civil, and treated people who have different opinions from you with more respect.
Do you know where you are? This is Pharyngula, not Coddle the Rape Apologists Blog. If you want that, go…well, go nearly anywhere else, because Pharyngula is one of the few places where rape apologists are actively and universally condemned by the regular commentariat.
And jenny and mills, I know you guys aren’t “despicable human beings” just like I am not, so don’t let that get to you.
Maybe you lot can form a Troll Support Group and bawl about how mean the Pharyngulites were to you.
Your advice presumes that every other women on the planet is so stupid she’s not already doing that, and furthermore assumes that you are super special wonderful for thinking it up. Meanwhile, the burden on the rapists and the observers, and the culture is exactly zero.
The person wringing their hands here is you, because until you can lock away every woman, not removing rapists from the general population leaves them free to rape. If any one of you idiotic rapist apologists ever thought to consider how to affect the culture surrounding the rapists—their friends, the symptoms they might see, the clues the rapists give off, the observers who see the rapists’ actions, hear the rapists’ words—-then perhaps new, novel, helpful advice to women (none of which describes your ‘advice’) might be helpful, but until we actually see the rapist as the problem—-and all the people, like you, who enable him by making him disappear——then telling the victim to just STFU and take advice that was old when the Earth’s crust was still cooling.
Rapists have friends. Rapists have siblings, parents, co-workers, girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, ex wives, children, and witnesses. They see how he consistently denigrates women, jokes about rape, disrespects women, or more subtly, is always surrounded by the smoke of incidents with women. If you actually educated yourself, you’d find that rapists have a hard time concealing their contempt of women, but maybe one person stepping up and saying something might make a difference. But of course our culture thinks women are stupid and heedless, as you have demonstrated all too obviously, and that contempt toward them is appropriate and all they deserve, barring those uppity feminazis with their unreasonable demands about jailing rapists, respecting women, and not calling women liars and idiots in the guise of ‘offering them advice.’
The best material on rape is still Tim Beneke’s Men on Rape, where he talks to a variety of men who commit rapes, who fantasize about them, who arrest them, charge them, treat the victims, and make excuses for rapists. Like you’re doing. It’s got to be twenty years old, but the remarks of the rape crisis center at the end of the book remain prescient: “All these men assume that women must be the one to stop rape, that they must be the one to change their actions.” Like you’re doing.
Which places no strain on men, and lets the culture stay where it is.
Amphiox says:
15 June 2012 at 11:52 pm
However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
NAME a SPECIFIC example of a “reasonable” precaution, SHOW us the EVIDENCE that it changes the odds, SHOW us the quantification of HOW MUCH it changes the odds, and THEN we can talk about THAT SPECIFIC “reasonable” precaution and whether it is or is not reasonable or practical and whether talking about that SPECIFIC “reasonable” precaution is or is not, and in what circumstances, useful and not victim blaming.
SPECIFIC DETAILS, with EVIDENCE of effectiveness.
ROTFLM6833AO !!! You want me to prove that rapes didn’t happen that otherwise would have happened.
You’re at best only semi-sane.
BTW, you’re full of contempt for my approach to personal safety. What’s yours?
What is your approach?
Or are you all yappety-yap, and no substance?
758
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
You want me to prove that rapes didn’t happen that otherwise would have happened.
You claimed that there are “reasonable rape prevention” methods, yet you haven’t named any or explained how they prevent rape or show that they do or showed how they’re reasonable or how you can decide for someone else what is reasonable. You’re so out of bounds you’re making me write run-on sentences.
“The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless.”
Yeah, sure, like defensive driving is all but useless.
YOU CAN CAUSE YOURSELF TO BE IN AN ACCIDENT.
YOU CANNOT RAPE YOURSELF YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT.
“It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.”
Agreed. So what’s YOUR solution?
GETTING MEN TO STOP RAPING AND NOT BLAMING VICTIMS THE WAY SCUMBAGS LIKE YOU HAVE DONE.
Complaining on and on about how impossible it (supposedly) is to stay safe isn’t going to help.
You’re the one who’s not listening or understanding the solution, you lying sack of dog shit.
“Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you.”
I’ve never said that.
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE.
I’ve repeatedly emphasized that precautions can’t eliminate rape, but can change the odds. Changing the odds is worth some degree of effort.
YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE ODDS UNTIL YOU CHANGE RAPE CULTURE, you dishonest fucking moron.
“It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.”
Changing the odds in my favor isn’t dangerous to me. Just the opposite.
Because you’re the only one who matters.
And I hope garbage slime like you are never in the position where you find out that all your “prevention” does ZERO to save you.
For those who have already been raped, moving the odds may prevent being raped again.
Tell us how OG and the others could have prevented being raped following your single-minded bullshit.
Tell me how I could prevent being gang-raped.
Come on.You’re so fucking all knowing. Tell us.
You’re the one who says you know.
Put the fuck up or shut the fuck up.
You might better understand my point if you were to review the material you got in 8th or 9th grade about probability theory, although I’m certain your teachers didn’t call it that.
You might understand something if you had a) a brain b) a heart or c) any fucking humanity.
Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.
And before you criticize my recommendations, perhaps you should come up with our own recommended approach to a full or partial solution.
YOU’RE THE ONE WHO DOES NOT GET THAT NOBODY HAS SAID NOT TO TRY SOME PREVENTATIVES.
You’re just one of the stupid ass scumbags who doesn’t get that IT’S THE RAPISTS WHO NEED TO BE DEALT WITH, STUPID!
Until you do, you’re just futilely wringing your hands.
Fuck you.
Fuck you and your smug pretentious bullshit all the way back to whatever garbage dump you came from.
You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a clueless douchecanoe.
Adamgordon, I forgot to say one more thing about Men on Rape: sometimes, you can’t tell the rapists from the guys who prosecute them, or the guys labeled ‘ordinary’—who fantasize about justified rapes—-you know, like the guys who think it’s okay to make rape jokes about people like Ann Coulter. Because she’s a bad woman, and what do you do to bad women?
Complaining on and on about how impossible it (supposedly) is to stay safe isn’t going to help.
Stop treating rapists as though they are not products of their environments, as though there is no way to control their violence. Educate children, all children, about the importance of consent, including their own rights to their own bodies. “No means no” is insufficient. STOP FUCKING VICTIM BLAMING because it discourages reporting and harms the victims who do report, and so many rapists are repeat offenders. Educate people about the actual experiences of rape victims to destabilize the idiotic idea that Strange Men In Bushes are the thing they really need to be worried about, and that if a Strange Man In a Bush didn’t jump out and grab you, maybe you’re just a slut having buyers’ remorse. Stop making excuses for rapists, stop accusing victims of lying, and shut down anyone who does. Improve the socioeconomic status of women of color, work to eradicate racist beliefs about the sexualities of women of color, and raise awareness of the ways in which sexual violence intersects with race. Work to improve visibility of trans people, so as to help erase the social dehumanization of trans women that leads to such a high rate of violence against them. Work to improve visibility of queer people for the same reasons. Promulgate knowledge about alternative sexualities, and promote the rights of sex workers. I could probably come up with some more, but I really have a paper to get back to.
Your solutions? “Get a big dog.” Great. You have fun with that.
Changing the odds in my favor isn’t dangerous to me. Just the opposite.
All those precautions, like magic talismans, don’t change the odds. All it does is make women fair game, by putting the responsibility of avoiding rape onto them.
Look at the extremes: women sunbathing on nude beaches are not seen to be asking to be raped. Women in burkas are not protected by their clothing.
Women in their own homes are not safe. Women have perfectly legitimate reasons to move around in public at all times of the day or night.
If we want to change the odds to be in your favour, we need to change the culture. It’s not the behaviour of women that needs to change, it’s the idea that power and status do not entitle anybody to take whatever they want.
I can tell by the length of the thread (and as with all parties, I’m late to this one as well) that the apologists for rape culture decided to show up. How hard is it just to say, yes, we need to change the remaining reptile-brained, mouth-breathing clods with severe ostracism for joking about it, and severe legal and financial penalties for breaking laws dealing with the problem. And by severe, I mean genuinely severe, no slaps on the wrist. Someone thinking rape is fun may have a different opinion of it after spending 15-20 years in jail and a ‘say goodbye to your house’ kind of fine, rather than ridiculous slaps on the wrist they get now.
And for those in the skeptic movement that are still making apologies for rape culture, rather than acknowledging and addressing the issue appropriately, how about taking a walk back down the railroad tracks that brought you from religious belief to your current state of thinking, and try to pinpoint exactly where it is you forgot to drop off the religious baggage of patriarchal, misogynist and sexist bullshit. Try taking the trip again from there and see if you fare much better in being a rational person, one that recognizes the equality and rights of all persons, even those sans penis.
This isn’t a hard issue to wrap one’s head around. You either recognize this isn’t the dark ages and the situation must reflect the supposed high ethical standards and equal fairness of a modern, democratic society, or you are an oblivious, anachronistic asshole. It is that simple a dichotomy.
Pteryxx says:
16 June 2012 at 1:16 am
And before you criticize my recommendations, perhaps you should come up with our own recommended approach to a full or partial solution.
We’ve only been doing that since the OP, you nit. Raise awareness of the pointless victim-blaming game that women are forced to play, and put the focus back where it belongs – on the rapists, who are mostly acquaintances and family operating with impunity because of victim-blaming and false narratives.
I asked for a plan to solve the problem. You’re offering mutterings from a thread that almost no one reads and that no mainstream publication would print. Bubba, that ain’t no plan!
I agree, of course, that the focus should be on rapists. More importantly the focus should be on jailing rapists and preventing potential rapists from becoming rapists.
I’m advocating exactly that, but you don’t want to hear it.
In fact, you have no plan. You just want to bewail.
I just wanted to say that I truly am sorry if I hurt the feelings of any sexual assault victims.
Emphasis mine. So if someone wasn’t offended, you’re not sorry. So, you don’t care that shit you said was offensive and victim-blaming and immoral, you’re just mad that someone got upset and called you on your shit.
If what I said was offensive, then it offended someone, and I recognized that it did. What someone says has to be offensive to someone to be bad (in order to be immoral, it must be hurtful to someone). Of course I am sorry, and upset and disappointed with myself, if I hurt someone’s feelings or triggered negative emotions. I do not like to do so, and as far as I know (besides here apparently), I am pretty good at taking a wide variety of people’s feelings into account.
My point, and yes, perhaps its a moot point considering the snarky culture of this blog, is that calling the person you disagree with names or telling them they are evil, bad people, is not successful in changing their opinion. I have been guilty of doing the exact same thing myself — so I realize it’s hard not to do. But if you try to put yourself in that person’s shoes, understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it and then reason to them as if you were them, they may be more receptive to what you have to say. It’s something I really need to work on doing more, I definitely recognize that.
I asked for a plan to solve the problem. You’re offering mutterings from a thread that almost no one reads and that no mainstream publication would print. Bubba, that ain’t no plan!
You are getting more obtuse by the post. Is it late where you are? Would it be a good idea for you to take a break?
As I watched one of the videos linked to (I believe it was the one called “The GReat Penis Debate”),
I heard one of the commenters say that “all of the sudden” (refering to “elevatorgate”) people went from talking about “guys, don’t do that” to “How do you know he wasn’t a rapist?”
And that is one vital componant at the root of all of the misunderstanding on this topic, IMO. A lot of people don’t know what sorts of forms rapes can take. They’ve got the picture lodged in their brains, of the lurking boogy-man stranger in the bushes with a knife and can’t be bothered to learn anything about the more reality-based models of the ways that many rapists operate.
The transition from “guys don’t do that” to “he might have been a rapist” is only mystifying and nonsensical if you really honestly think that rape follows a movie script, and all rapists come from central casting.
The ultimate irony for me is, that here we have people saying that women are responsible for being aware of and recognizing and avoiding all potential danger…but at the same time, screaming “reverse sexism!” when people show awareness and recognize a scenario that could be a set-up for a rape attempt -even when it is kind of textbook.
So basically women are responsible for knowing and recognizing every danger sign of an impending rape attempt without being paranoid, and without saying anything to anybody because they don’t want backlash from making men feel sterotyped because they mentioned that it was a man that was behaving in a threatening manner…and we don’t need any policies or discussion, or awareness because it’s not a problem anyway, and even if it is, it’s their problem not ours.
is that calling the person you disagree with names or telling them they are evil, bad people, is not successful in changing their opinion.
Except when it is. Different approaches work for different people. If you need to be coddled, you don’t belong here.
Honestly, though, I’ve stopped caring. I don’t care what you believe in your heart of hearts. I care that you stop saying and doing harmful shit. And if you do that because you’re afraid of being shamed and verbally torn into by people who actually know what they’re talking about and are willing to tell you in painstaking detail what an ass you are, instead of because you have gotten your head straight on the issue, I really don’t care. As long as you stop.
Jenny, if your advice actually works, countries where women are supposed to cover themselves completely should be the safest in the world. Take notes, there will be a quiz. Why aren’t they? So should other conservative environments. Anyone who demands conservative clothing or behavior or restrictions of rights for women is basically trading womens’ rights for mens’ ability to prey on women. They are loosing the reins so that men can rape with just about complete impunity.
Another necessary thing: get rid of the all evidence of the double standard, and encourage people to ridicule those people who seem to think consent is a scary, mysterious, narrow little tightrope thingie, which women capriciously yank out from under them when they feel like it. If you aren’t sure if you have consent….you don’t. And if you’re arguing that it’s okay to fuck semi-conscious women (which usually comes up in discussions like this) you’re letting people know that you are such a revolting scumbag that you cannot imagine a woman voluntarily and enthusiastically having sex with you.
There have been numerous cases in the news of bartenders, women, waitresses, waiters, noticing rapes about to happen—date rape drugs, commonly—and who have acted and prevented not only a nearly-certain rape but also apprehended the guy, who almost certainly was not doing this for the first time. (Oh, and not that those categories are mutually exclusive.) Look up the case of the Max Factor heir, who raped dozens of women and fled to Mexico for a while. Look up that guy from Craig’s List, who raped numerous women and who only got convicted of a few rapes because the women he raped did not behave like culturally-approved Good Rape Victims—–they were confused, they were stunned, they had heard all the myths and were offered no alternatives. Some of them tried to prove to themselves it hadn’t been rape. None of that shows up in culturally-approved rape narratives, where the venue is always a dark deserted alley and the victim is always Bill Napoli’s wet dream twelve-year-old virgin.
Oh, and if that mythical alley is so deserted, how come it’s not perfectly safe? If one’s looking for victims, wouldn’t one go where there are other people? It’s like looking for water in Death Valley.
Isn’t it scientifically proven that positive reinforcement, rather than negative reinforcement, is more effective? I mean, my dad was quite successful in “winning” debates with me because he would throw things, yell, and get violent, but that never once changed what I believed, and it never made me think that what he said was right. I have realized that some of what I said was harmful; other parts of it, I maintain, have been blown out of proportion and misconstrued. I tried to make things right for those who were genuinely hurt or triggered by my comments, and apparently all that does is cue more anger. I’d appreciate if you don’t insinuate that I’m stupid either.
You’ve faux apologized, piled the bullshit high, and now you’re whining and tone trolling? Positive reinforcement? PZ ought to ban you in the morning but leave your comments up as perfect examples of rape apology.
You want me to prove that rapes didn’t happen that otherwise would have happened.
Huh?
No, what we want is some evidence that women taking all these “reasonable precautions” will actually make rape less common. Because if it doesn’t, then your little lecture on probability theory:
Changing the odds in my favor isn’t dangerous to me. Just the opposite.
For those who have already been raped, moving the odds may prevent being raped again.
You might better understand my point if you were to review the material you got in 8th or 9th grade about probability theory, although I’m certain your teachers didn’t call it that
Well, let’s just look at the whole equation. If you lower your odds, but the number of rapists and the incidence of rape remains the same, what have you done? You’ve raised somebody else’s odds. Probably someone who has fewer choices about where they can be at what time.
That’s math. Your teachers probably called it “remedial.”
Yes, please do ban all the people that disagree. Although what I’ve tried to point out is that there is VERY LITTLE THAT WE ACTUALLY DISAGREE ON. Quote me, any of my posts, where I said that people deserved to be raped, or that rape isn’t so bad, or whatever it is you think I’m trying to say.
My point, and yes, perhaps its a moot point considering the snarky culture of this blog, is that calling the person you disagree with names or telling them they are evil, bad people, is not successful in changing their opinion.
Do you seriously think that you’re the first person to attempt that point here?
Guess what cupcake, there is plenty of evidence right here on this blog that shock tactics are what the complacent holders of ugly cultural norms need to wake up. People pop up all the time to point out how getting slapped down hard startled them into question their long held beliefs. Fuck, right in this thread there’s an example of this.
Not everyone will respond, ’tis true, but enough do that the practice has merit. And besides, just how well has being polite and respectful in one’s criticism of rape culture worked out in the past, hmmmm? Or for any social justice issue for that matter? If that kind of thing had any real effect on the world we wouldn’t be having this argument at all, let alone for fucking billionth time.
I’d appreciate if you don’t insinuate that I’m stupid either.
I’d appreciate it if you don’t continue to think anyone in this thread owes you shit. You are the one who came into this thread and lectured from a position of ignorance on how mean we – the people whose lives are directly affected by the shit you’re spewing – were all being to people who were and still are causing harm. And you are the one who threw a strawmanning tantrum because the bloody Pharyngula horde wasn’t nice enough to you. Oh, and does anyone have a good resource on notpologies? Because I feel like amaclean needs some serious education on the matter.
And it was a genuine apology. But if you’d rather believe I’m a woman-hating, evil, baby-eating human (who considers herself a feminist), then go ahead. And to all of you, have a lovely night. :)
Because the only absolute way to avoid rape in a rape culture is to commit suicide before it happens.
Please don’t. I get your point, but at least one person here *coughs* has seriously considered it and not in the distant past either.
Re the tips reposted by Erista in 207 which I am not reposting.
By golly, it’s like a walkthrough for how to be a good battered spouse! Spoiler warning: It doesn’t help.
Shit, I get a morbid kick out of rape prevention tips. Since I’ve been raped while clothed, pajama-ed, and nude, I’m just not sure what to wear anymore!
Amaclean, you’re talking to more than a bakers’ dozen of people who have been raped, an unknown number who have been sexually harassed, and a lot of people who are friends and relatives of people who have been raped and harassed. They have reason to be angry and short of patience with those who repeat the same old pointless rubbish. You may not have had the intention of blaming the victim, but that is what you’ve ended up doing. So you got sworn at. That’s going to happen if you repeat old, fallacious paralogic at people who have already been hurt by it.
So, you know, you need to take reasonable precautions to prevent it happening in the future. Don’t wander into a dark thread where swearing is taking place late at night. Don’t post provocatively. Don’t antagonise the thread’s posters. Don’t post while drunk. Always check your posts if you’ve left them unattended for any length of time while strangers are about. If you’re worried about a thread, try to get a friend to accompany you. If you take these few, simple precautions, you should always be safe.
Here we are, back talking about victim culpability again, seemingly oblivious to the notion that this focus on rape prevention is exactly the framing that rape apologists use to punish the victim and which is too often employed by police and judiciary to let rapists off. As has been stated repeatedly, you are bolstering and perpetuating rape culture when you continually derail discussions to make them about what the victim should do. You fail to acknowledge that you, in your own special way, are complicit with rape culture.
No matter that your advice requires certain lurid scenarios, such as women in places you do not authorise them to be, or wearing clothes you do not authorise them to wear. No matter that it at best applies to attacks by stalkers and not other, more common forms of rape such as that which happens within the home.
Nope, you want to keep banging on about this because you want to win the point, because you have no empathy for the triggers you have been firing off here for actual rape victims, because with your whining about the rudeness of the commentators, this is really about you and your egos.
The woman in the cartoon is exhausted and frustrated because of folks like you. I’m exhausted because of your foolishness, because of your failure to see that you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Because yes, you ARE part of the problem, and no you are NOT helping. You are directly and indirectly empowering those who will punish victims because of their failures to follow advice that requires to them act and dress like a nun in order to have their story accepted by the authorities. Indeed, I’m not even certain a raped nun can expect justice in the current climate.
And that is a climate you are contributing to. Will you kindly stop now?
Although what I’ve tried to point out is that there is VERY LITTLE THAT WE ACTUALLY DISAGREE ON.
Very little except, you know, the acceptability of lecturing rape survivors (with dysomniak and kristinc making 16) about an issue that has directly affected their own lives and experiences from a position of blithe ignorance after they have explained how it is harmful and missing the point to do that, and the acceptability of lecturing people who have not been victims on how they do their own risk assessment strategies. I’m glad you’ve apparently learned that this is a bad idea, but now you’ve moved on to lecturing everybody for not being nice enough to you while you were being a callous asshole. Not good.
You know, this whole, “I’m changing the odds in my favor!” thing offends me.
Why? Because all it does is change the situation from one where you get raped to one where someone else gets raped.
So much of this “reasonable precaution” crap relies on that. “Women walking down this road are more likely to be raped,” they say, “so don’t walk down that road!” But if no one woman walked down that road, would the rapists lose their will to rape, or would they move to another road? The answer is the second, of course, because it is not the road that is causing the rape, it is the rapist.
Don’t walk too far off campus. Don’t walk back from the music department at night. Even if we assume those things make you safe (and they don’t), all you are doing is offering up some other woman as a scape goat, some other woman who didn’t follow the rules, because you have to know that if everyone followed the rules, the rapists would simply circle in tighter. We know this because societies with harsher rules for women don’t have fewer rapes; they often have more.
So stop it; stop acting like this is about time or place or anything like that. It’s about rapists.
I asked for a plan to solve the problem. You’re offering mutterings from a thread that almost no one reads and that no mainstream publication would print. Bubba, that ain’t no plan!
One of the primary ways to help reduce the number of rapes is to reduce the rape culture people are brought up in.
One major way to do this is to say, loudly, over and over, that rape is something that is done to people regardless of if they take your vaunted ‘precautions’ or not. Part of this is accepting and understanding the simple truth of this statement. This is one small step towards the long-term goal of making men understand that the solution, the only solution, to rape is for men to stop raping. That’s it, that’s all, there’s no other reasonable solution.
You’re watching the solution, a very small part of it, right here, in real time, on this blog.
And you’re arguing with the people doing it.
Please stop doing that.
Women can’t stop rape.
If they could, they would have.
Stop telling them they could, but choose not to.
Because, yes, that’s exactly what you are doing.
Sometimes a positive polite argument will work on people, sometimes it won’t. Assuming that one single method will work on everyone is naive. If you can point to any research that shows that a positive approach is superior,it would be good if you could share it.
It has been my experience that sometimes those who have not reasoned themselves into a particular point of view cannot be reasoned out of it. Sometimes a short sharp shock, in terms of having the faults in their argument pointed out and ridiculed (when they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge these faults) will work. Sometimes, when people a childish and petulant, a childish and petulant response can show them how silly they are being.
It takes all sorts of arguments, and I’m sure there are a few people on here who are willing to admit their positions have been changed when they have ended up on the receiving end of some strong criticism here. I certainly have been.
And another thing amaclean: Sometimes anger, even spittle flying, vein popping, full on RAGE, is appropriate. And from where I stand, anything, no matter how seemingly trivial, that perpetuates rape culture is something that deserves anger at the very least. I swear that the lefty, kumbayah singing, why can’t we all get alongggggg, drive me to rage faster than the most rabid of Christian fundamentalists.
“Research has found positive reinforcement is the most powerful of any of these. Adding a positive to increase a response not only works better, but allows both parties to focus on the positive aspects of the situation. Punishment, when applied immediately following the negative behavior can be effective, but results in extinction when it is not applied consistently. Punishment can also invoke other negative responses such as anger and resentment.”
Okay, fine. If you read and acknowledge the accounts that I and other rape victims have given you about how “rape prevention tips” affect us, I’ll give you a gold star. How about that!?
I would agree that rage is appropriate for some things, like people who say those with dark skin are inferior, or Jewish people deserved to be slaughtered, or that gay people should be put in an enclosed space and left to die out, or whatever it was that idiot said. But I think there are also degrees of appropriateness for anger. I get annoyed when people think that gay people should not be able to get married (but still should be given civil unions). While I disagree, I don’t think their opinion is evil, and I especially do not think that they re evil. I get very, very angry when people say gay people are not human, and should be treated with contempt. And I fly into a rage when I hear that people are killed for being gay in other countries.
Punishment, when applied immediately following the negative behavior can be effective, but results in extinction when it is not applied consistently.
So we must be improve our consistency in dealing out tongue-lashings to malefactors such as yourself! Thanks, I think you have just made the case for many of us here continuing our good work!
I was asked to provide evidence that positive reinforcements are more effective than punishments. And to the above, that’s quotemining. Punishments also promote feelings of anger and resentment, which can be counter-productive to a cause.
I would agree that rage is appropriate for some things, like people who say those with dark skin are inferior, or Jewish people deserved to be slaughtered, or that gay people should be put in an enclosed space and left to die out, or whatever it was that idiot said. But I think there are also degrees of appropriateness for anger.
And you also think that you are a good judge of what is an appropriate level of anger to be aimed at you for the harm you are doing to someone else.
Spare. Me.
amaclean, I don’t think you are in a position to tell rape victims how angry they should be about people offering up “rape prevention tips” that place the responsibility for the rape on the victim.
We’re obviously at a misunderstanding here. To avoid hurting anyone else’s feelings, I will give this a rest. If you’d like to email me about this, and feel you can explain to me clearly what I am thinking wrong, and won’t be at risk of getting triggered, I welcome this. I will listen.
I was asked to provide evidence that positive reinforcements are more effective than punishments. And to the above, that’s quotemining. Punishments also promote feelings of anger and resentment, which can be counter-productive to a cause.
You know, giving rape victims the support they need to express their feelings (whether they be rage, fear, sadness, or whatever) is in fact a cause. I do not feel inclined to sacrifice it on the basis of the hurt feelings of those who are not interested in listening to victims of rape.
amaclean #293: So why don’t you do the same when women are blamed for having been raped by being told that they could have prevented it by doing something differently themselves?
I’m really late to the party, but I’m still steaming over this:
The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
Oh, I know! I know! It’s simple:
- Don’t be a kid.
- Don’t be babysat.
- Don’t play with schoolmates.
- Don’t have neighbours.
- Don’t have relatives. Especially, don’t interact with them if you’re forced to have them.
- It’s probably a good idea not to have parents, either.
- Don’t live with anyone, no matter how nice they seem. Don’t get married.
- Stay away from work environments. Avoid bosses and supervisors. And clients; don’t talk to customers.
- Never go to parties. Better still, don’t have friends.
- Oh, and make sure you are never alone; that would be asking for trouble.
We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
Sorry, I was unclear. I mean that the user base here is slightly prone to group think and attacking people that are already being attacked (not supposed to be a point I wanted to argue, I took it as a given after lurking for awhile. Not EVERYONE reads every single post and you do come to trust the instincts of certain posters- I don’t think it’s at all feasible to demand that everyone completely avoid doing that, and I know I sure can’t live up to that level of objectivity,) not that either of those things were happening in this thread, or at least that they were not relevant factors in the reaction those posters were getting.
They’ve said stupid things and then defiantly stood tall as if in pride of their ignorance of this topic. Their troubles here are very much their own fault, and I suspect the whole scene they’ve made is largely about them internally rejecting that they COULD possible be called out on a subject like this, where they are used to people tiptoeing and trying not to rock the boat instead of actually standing up about it.
Also: aww fuck, how long have they been misusing the term groupthink? Bigots keep taking away all of my corporate vocabulary. I think I’m using the term with a better psychological compr- no, never mind. I won’t even try to defend that. I retract that part of my statement. Dogpiling probably stands well enough alone for what my intent was, except of course how it likens you to feral dogs (or perhaps that can be a compliment?)
Gyeong Hwa
No, I’m being annoying accommodationist. I think I’m still sticking to the core of what matters but I’m doing it while sugar coating my words to people that have behaved in a completely disgusting manner and playing a bit into their “you can solve any social problem if you know the right trick” thought patterns. I like to think I reach at least a few people doing this that would otherwise remain blind to their folly, and honestly there are plenty of other people here that vastly exceed my capacity for telling people just how disgusting they are, so I leave that up to the people who are good at it.
Anyway I think the rest of what I said soundly blames those folks for what they’ve done to themselves and gives decent advice for how to better conduct themselves here and in the presence of other… experts on the net. Anybody hate any of the rest of what I said in that post and/or spot anywhere I’ve said something monstrous without realizing what I was implying? I’m genuinely interesting in teaching myself to stop doing things like that, just as soon as I’m able to identify them.
But I think there are also degrees of appropriateness for anger. I get annoyed when people think that gay people should not be able to get married (but still should be given civil unions). While I disagree, I don’t think their opinion is evil, and I especially do not think that they re evil.
Jesus fucking Christ on a flying reindeer, do you listen to yourself when you talk? We are not talking about things that have happened to other people that we can be dispassionate about. We are not even talking about the legitimately rage-inducing legal. We are talking about physical violation and how that suffering is compounded by attitudes like the ones you’re peddling.
Forgive me for being all emotional about how my own fucking family reminds me to make “better choices” in the future so that “that” won’t happen again. (Nooo, we can’t talk about it. Saying the word would be unthinkable. Let’s all pretend that it was just a mistake, an error on my part and not a fucking predator who–while the jury is out on whether it actually ruined my life given my age–threw me into an abyss of despair that I’m barely fucking clawing my way out of five years on.)
Actually, no, on second thought, go fuck yourself.
As I have said before, MANY TIMES, I would never tell a rape victim “well, if you had only []“. That’s plain mean and disrespectful, and wrong. I would tell my children to take certain, general precautions. I know this does not mean they are safe from rape, because a lot of rapes occur that cannot be prevented by this precautions. Nevertheless, I would try to shelter them from what potential dangers I can reasonably shelter them from without infringing on their freedom to live a full life. I do not see how that is wrong or offensive. Again, we are arguing different things here. Really, I’m not going to post anymore, it’s hard not to but obviously there is no point.
I asked for a plan to solve the problem. You’re offering mutterings from a thread that almost no one reads and that no mainstream publication would print. Bubba, that ain’t no plan!
This really was a shift of goalposts, together with absolute arrogance of expecting people to do your bidding.
The plan is obvious – change the culture. Talk, talk, talk. Let people know that what’s expected.
I’ve seen a lot of societal change even in my lifetime. It used to be that rape within marriage was inconceivable, because women were deemed to have given permanent consent with their marriage vows (this is still the case in some places). Hopefully, the days are gone where a boy who was raped by a priest would be castrated to cure his homosexuality.
Women are the largest group of vulnerable people, but it isn’t just us.
The initiation rites of universities and working places have been toned down so that they are not life-threatening experiences anymore.
It boils down to establishing a culture that proclaims that it is not ok to scare or hurt people who are more vulnerable. I’ve seen change in the workplace happen around me time and time again.
I also know that there are people who oppose this change, and would reverse it all given half the chance.
Ugh, I accidentally a whole half of a sentence there. That should be “We are not even talking about the legitimately rage-inducing legal discrimination.”
Amaclean, you don’t get to say when other people’s anger is appropriate. Seriously, that’s the height of arrogance, and what’s more, it may surprise you to learn it doesn’t make them any less angry.
This a very good post, especially the first paragraph. Well, the first paragraph would be especially good if the first sentence were corrected to say the opposite of what it does. I’ve never suggested that women should cover themselves to try to prevent attacks.(Why can’t people who want to argue jump on things I’ve actually said? Why do they have to make stuff up?)
As a nudist who has traveled widely, I’m well aware that there’s an inverse correlation between how much skin people (especialy women) are allowed to show and the incidence of rape: more skin, less rape. In France, for example, all beaches are topfree and there’s a beach for full nudity every 20 miles or so. I can tell you that the behavior is far far better on nude beaches in France than on conventionally clothed beaches here and also somewhat better than on clothing-optional beaches here.
Full nudity of a non-sexual nature is common on French TV including during the French dinner hour when the kiddies are watching along with the rest of the family. And, at least among the native French, the incidence of rape and other sexual assault is lower than here.
So, I’ll offer a way to significantly reduce rape in these assorted and somewhat amalgamated states: change the law in every state to be like Oregon’s ORS 163.465 which does not criminalize mere, simple (meaning non-sexual) nudity.
LOL. That’ll be the day! In the USA, we want to keep our Victorian morals, our high crime rate, and our full prisons.
ginmar says:
16 June 2012 at 1:48 am
Jenny, if your advice actually works, countries where women are supposed to cover themselves completely should be the safest in the world. Take notes, there will be a quiz. Why aren’t they? So should other conservative environments. Anyone who demands conservative clothing or behavior or restrictions of rights for women is basically trading womens’ rights for mens’ ability to prey on women. They are loosing the reins so that men can rape with just about complete impunity.
Another necessary thing: get rid of the all evidence of the double standard, and encourage people to ridicule those people who seem to think consent is a scary, mysterious, narrow little tightrope thingie, which women capriciously yank out from under them when they feel like it. If you aren’t sure if you have consent….you don’t. And if you’re arguing that it’s okay to fuck semi-conscious women (which usually comes up in discussions like this) you’re letting people know that you are such a revolting scumbag that you cannot imagine a woman voluntarily and enthusiastically having sex with you.
There have been numerous cases in the news of bartenders, women, waitresses, waiters, noticing rapes about to happen—date rape drugs, commonly—and who have acted and prevented not only a nearly-certain rape but also apprehended the guy, who almost certainly was not doing this for the first time. (Oh, and not that those categories are mutually exclusive.) Look up the case of the Max Factor heir, who raped dozens of women and fled to Mexico for a while. Look up that guy from Craig’s List, who raped numerous women and who only got convicted of a few rapes because the women he raped did not behave like culturally-approved Good Rape Victims—–they were confused, they were stunned, they had heard all the myths and were offered no alternatives. Some of them tried to prove to themselves it hadn’t been rape. None of that shows up in culturally-approved rape narratives, where the venue is always a dark deserted alley and the victim is always Bill Napoli’s wet dream twelve-year-old virgin.
Oh, and if that mythical alley is so deserted, how come it’s not perfectly safe? If one’s looking for victims, wouldn’t one go where there are other people? It’s like looking for water in Death Valley.
Nevertheless, I would try to shelter them from what potential dangers I can reasonably shelter them from without infringing on their freedom to live a full life.
That’s the funny thing, amaclean. The sad, funny thing. Living in fear of rape? Taking “reasonable precautions” like “don’t be in public places alone, don’t dress like that, don’t engage in social activities, make sure you don’t always take the same route home, make sure you bring a knife, make sure you have a big dog and if you can’t maybe you should just stay at home”? It is infringing on our freedom to live a full life.
andrewriding #305: We are Pharyngula. Prepare to be assimilated. Your concern has been noted.
As I have said before, MANY TIMES, I would never tell a rape victim “well, if you had only []“. That’s plain mean and disrespectful, and wrong. I would tell my children to take certain, general precautions. I know this does not mean they are safe from rape, because a lot of rapes occur that cannot be prevented by this precautions. Nevertheless, I would try to shelter them from what potential dangers I can reasonably shelter them from without infringing on their freedom to live a full life. I do not see how that is wrong or offensive. Again, we are arguing different things here. Really, I’m not going to post anymore, it’s hard not to but obviously there is no point.
*deep breath*
Okay, here’s the deal. You may be saying, “I would never tell a rape victim, ‘well, if only you had []‘”, but you are in fact currently telling rape victims “well, if only you had []” with your unspecified “reasonable precautions” flappings. Whatever you mean to be saying, that is in fact what you are saying. This explains why so many rape survivors are so very unhappy with you. If this isn’t what you mean to be doing, you need to reconsider your approach.
But I think there are also degrees of appropriateness for anger.
And there’s your problem. You seem incapable of grasping that the anger that’s being directed at you is appropriate. You’re so caught up in desperately trying to justify what you think that you’ve close yourself to any understanding of why other people think differently.
I swear that the lefty, kumbayah singing, why can’t we all get alongggggg [idiots], drive me to rage faster than the most rabid of Christian fundamentalists.
Vitriol is positive reinforcement. “positive”, in this context does not mean “nice”. It means introducing a stimulus as opposed to removing it. Negative reinforcement would be not responding at all when you make ignorant, hurtful, and rape-culture-reinforcing statements. If you’re going to cite Skinner you’d do well to educate yourself.
Shit, I get a morbid kick out of rape prevention tips. Since I’ve been raped while clothed, pajama-ed, and nude, I’m just not sure what to wear anymore!
I did make a mistake when I said “negative” reinforcement earlier, I realized that after I said that. But Skinner clearly showed that “vitriol” is less effective than techniques that do not induce resentment (whether positive or negative).
And lest I be merely raging, amaclean, here are some useful things you might teach your children.
1) Their bodies are their own and they don’t have to allow anyone to touch them for any reason if they don’t want to.
2) They are valuable people and don’t need anyone’s approval to retain that status, not even if that person claims to love them.
3) A romantic relationship is not necessary to be happy, to be a “complete person”, or any other bullshit generally sold about them. They are complete, whole, worthwhile people regardless of relationship status.
4) Relationship abusers are not creative, though they can be difficult to spot initially. They all pretty much do the same shit. Teach them what an abusive relationship looks like and what healthy ones look like. Television and movies give many excellent examples of abusive relationships, often in the guise of “romance”.
5) Abusers do not change and they do not love you, regardless of the stupid lies they tell. One should endeavor to extricate one’s self from an abusive relationship as soon as it is safe to do so.
These are the things that, had I learned them beforehand, might have helped me avoid that predator. Note how none of these “tips” involve what to wear, where to go, or how to act.
As I have said before, MANY TIMES, I would never tell a rape victim “well, if you had only []“.
And we are telling you that this is exactly what you have done. That you do not see this is worrying.
You clearly see this as ‘I was making a common-sense point about being cautious’ not realising that this is a common derailing tactic, a slippery-slope blame-shifting argument that undermines the case against the perpetrator. It’s the kind of thing that is seized upon and built upon by rape apologists, which is why we do not want to se it here, either in its pure form or the lesser form in which you couch it.
Just don’t go there. You have now been warned about this and had it explained to you. If you do it again you will be piled on and given a thorough tongue-lashing.
amaclean, I don’t know what to do with the fact that you are spending more time on how rape survivors should be dealing with people who inappropriately assign blame than on how rape survivors are being impacted by those who inappropriately assign blame.
Nepenthe: I really like those suggestions, actually, and you’re right — they are more constructive than telling people where not to go. They would definitely be things I would want to instill in people I care for. Just curious, does anyone think those suggestions are offensive?
Well, when you tell someone you have never met that they’re despicable, then what the hell sort of answer do you expect? “Why really, oh, thank you for telling me.”
…nudging an extra ‘u’ and ‘e’ from the Scrabble set discreetly under the table towards Ing…
What?
Well, when you tell someone you have never met that they’re despicable, then what the hell sort of answer do you expect? “Why really, oh, thank you for telling me.”
Well, when you tell someone you have never met that they’re despicable, then what the hell sort of answer do you expect? “Why really, oh, thank you for telling me.”
I expect you to take a hard fucking look at yourself and figure out why people might think that about you.
Some of this has been covered, but hey, how do those timezones work?
291 amaclean
but results in extinction when it is not applied consistently.
You heard her! We should all jump on what she is saying ALL THE TIME! Amaclean, you blew it big time. If that is negative of me, good!
293 amaclean
While I disagree, I don’t think their opinion is evil, and I especially do not think that they re evil. I get very, very angry when people say gay people are not human, and should be treated with contempt. And I fly into a rage when I hear that people are killed for being gay in other countries.
Glad I got that information before it was too late. Why, I might have been really really angry about something where I should just realize the other person isn’t evil, no matter what shit xe is uttering.
311 amaclean
I would try to shelter them from what potential dangers I can reasonably shelter them from
No matter how much they ask me to stop doing that or how pointless my actions are.
Am I comparable to Hitler yet? Or am I at more of a Pol Pot level?
Don’t be absurd. We are placing you as someone who contributes in his own special way to rape culture by misdirecting attention to what the victims’ actions were rather than the perpetrator’s.
would agree that rage is appropriate for some things, like people who say those with dark skin are inferior, or Jewish people deserved to be slaughtered, or that gay people should be put in an enclosed space and left to die out, or whatever it was that idiot said. But I think there are also degrees of appropriateness for anger. I get annoyed when people think that gay people should not be able to get married (but still should be given civil unions). While I disagree, I don’t think their opinion is evil, and I especially do not think that they re evil. I get very, very angry when people say gay people are not human, and should be treated with contempt. And I fly into a rage when I hear that people are killed for being gay in other countries.
Holy fucking shit. That really does show all we need to know. There is just so much wrong here.
You really truly are part of the problem. You’ve now shat on rape victims and gay people. Here, we do in fact call that opinion of “just give them civil unions!” evil. It is evil.
I get that you equate what we’re saying with your father’s abuse and cling to the idea that rage doesn’t change minds. I’m sorry for what you went through. However, you are quite honestly, unequivocally wrong.
As one of the rape victims you’ve been blaming, I do not in any way shape or form accept that not-apology.
*sigh* Godfuckingdamnit. I give up. I can’t even muster up more vileness. It’s so hard being beat down constantly even by people who claim to be helping.
6) Anyone can end up in an abusive relationship and it doesn’t mean that they are not strong, or empowered, or worldly or whatever. It means that they were caught by a predator and it isn’t their fault, either for getting caught in the first place or not leaving “sooner”. 1-5 only help with the obvious ones and they are not all obvious.
Just curious, if this is the reception I get for saying it doesn’t hurt to take certain precautions, what happens to people who actually ARE rapists? Or who say they think women deserve to be put in their place?
Well ok, but I still have assimilation virginity. Be gentle~
Seriously? In context you think this is appropriate? you think this is clever and cute? Why doesn’t your face try to assimilate a cinder block? It needs the intelligence boost
Well, when you tell someone you have never met that they’re despicable, then what the hell sort of answer do you expect? “Why really, oh, thank you for telling me.”
I don’t expect an answer at all. I expect you to look into your heart and ask: ‘What have I done to deserve this?’ And if you find fault there, particularly after others have pointed it out at length, then I expect you to modify your behaviour and views.
Working my way through this part of the list. Nearly done.
Horace from link at 32
With that in mind, we’d like to give you Peyton’s the five causes of violence.
1) Don’t Insult Him
2) Don’t Challenge Him
3) Don’t Threaten Him
4) Don’t Deny It’s Happening
5) Give Him A Face Saving Exit (1)
Because girls, he is a great big manly man and utterly incapable of differentiating a “no thanks, dude” from an offer to engage in combat and therefore will immediately “fight” you the way he fights other men, by raping you. Why can’t the womenz understand this??
or broke free from the grip with extreme force. In these circumstances, those actions provoke an attack
But grabbing and not letting go is not provocation. Oh you dumb womenz!
Why don’t you check the link that I included @32 ? The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
Certainly many women chose their fathers very badly. And then the uncles, too. shakes head sadly
Just curious, if this is the reception I get for saying it doesn’t hurt to take certain precautions, what happens to people who actually ARE rapists? Or who say they think women deserve to be put in their place?</blockquote.
We track them down, tie them to a chair, and burn everything they love infront of them forcing them to watch. if they have loved ones, family or pets we kill them, grind them into ground meat and force feed them to the bastard.
Seriously? In context you think this is appropriate? you think this is clever and cute? Why doesn’t your face try to assimilate a cinder block? It needs the intelligence boost.
Ing, I fucking love you. Thank you.
I’m going to go curl up in a ball and cry myself asleep tonight. I just can’t do anything else right now.
This will certainly teach me for trying to nicer and have hope. It fucking hurts. I wish amaclean would’ve stayed gone.
Just curious, if this is the reception I get for saying it doesn’t hurt to take certain precautions, what happens to people who actually ARE rapists? Or who say they think women deserve to be put in their place?
I’d rather hope they be caught, convicted and put in jail for a very long time.
But that conclusion is less likely where there are folks around giving them cover by suggesting the victim did not do enough to prevent the crime.
If I were at all told I were a bad person in real life, yes, I would take a look at it. But this teh internetz. A lot of important aspects are missing from this communication, and the opinions on this board are very particular, and very set in one direction. I’m sure if I went to the “world is flat” board, and posted my opinions there, I would be called an ignorant idiot. Wouldn’t take it to heart though. I do hold Pharyngula above that, of course, but nevertheless unless I’m hearing this from more than one source (or from a source who knows ME, like a husband or parent), then I see no reason to let it bother me.
Dumb shit: You’re making stuff up. I’ve not said anything of the kind. It’s never the victim’s fault.
I do think it’s wise to take precautions against all varieties of potential harm in a world where bad people undeniably exist.
I think you have the burden of quoting me, and of resisting the urge to do so inaccurately.
There I quoted you. And yet you are still wrong. If victims are NOT to blame, then how can their behaviour affect the outcome?
#191
No single precaution or combination thereof can prevent all bad people from doing bad tnings. However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
Clearly you don’t understand odds. These people have had it happen to them, so the odds are 100%, which unfortunately is now unchangable.
#267
I asked for a plan to solve the problem. You’re offering mutterings from a thread that almost no one reads and that no mainstream publication would print. Bubba, that ain’t no plan!
Because it involves me being wrong and at the mercy of reality like everyone else and hey bubba? I’m SPECIAL!!
Just curious, if this is the reception I get for saying it doesn’t hurt to take certain precautions, what happens to people who actually ARE rapists? Or who say they think women deserve to be put in their place?
Yes, if this is how we treat people who send rape survivors to bed crying, however will we treat people who harm women?
So I am the equivalent of a rapist because I accompany my friends back from parties late at night. And I harm women because I state that I do so. Got it.
@amaclean #322
In this thread I’ve been going for a bit of a “don’t cause resentment approach” myself (and probably with feminism in general but it’s too late to psychoanalyze myself properly,) but I’ve been very careful to avoid one thing: telling anyone here that they should do the same.
Social change needs vitriol. My studies are far from comprehensive but there’s an extremely obvious pattern where these movements accomplish jack squat for as long as people are willing to keep their voices down and not upset anyone.
This kind of telling people not to get angry or respond harshly attitude- well you see it everywhere. I doubt there’s anyone here who has heard that sentiment less than a dozen times. You’ve got to really close your ears to keep from hearing why people here don’t come around to that way of thinking- so have you not been paying attention for very long or are you good at going deaf when it strikes your fancy?
amaclean, did you miss post 356, or do you just not care?
I ask in all seriousness. Because it seems to me that you’re so intent on insisting that you haven’t done anything wrong in this thread that you are completely ignoring the actual impact you are having on real live rape survivors. And if you are doing that because you don’t care, then, well . . . I guess you’re the kind of person where nothing I say to you is going to make an impact on you, so I guess I’ll just leave it at that.
Anger and vitriol has its place. Personally, I support the Martin Luther King style of statement and protest. When wrongs are being committed, sometimes letting the ridiculousness and horror of those wrongs stand for themselves is effective. His march was still provocative, certainly, but it wasn’t harsh.
So I am the equivalent of a rapist because I accompany my friends back from parties late at night. And I harm women because I state that I do so. Got it.
Got it, do you? I wish.
How about reading what the actual real life even though they are in the internet people have said about being raped. Can you hear them?
And my apology to the men who were strong enough to come forward about their own rapes. I have been posting as if only women were raped, and that was thoughtless and wrong of me. I will try to do better.
Diversityn of tactics is a good thing, and there are plenty of place you can go to get “nice” answers to stupid questions. Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement wouldn’t have had nearly the success they did were it not for Malcolm X and the Black Power crowd scaring the shit out of whitey.
If I were at all told I were a bad person in real life, yes, I would take a look at it. But this teh internetz. A lot of important aspects are missing from this communication, and the opinions on this board are very particular, and very set in one direction. I’m sure if I went to the “world is flat” board, and posted my opinions there, I would be called an ignorant idiot. Wouldn’t take it to heart though. I do hold Pharyngula above that, of course, but nevertheless unless I’m hearing this from more than one source (or from a source who knows ME, like a husband or parent), then I see no reason to let it bother me.
And again, you fail.
You are in conversation with actual rape victims who have been trying to tell you something and instead of thoughtful introspection and maybe a change of heart, you give off a dismissal, now giving the reason that (I paraphrase) ‘they don’t know the real me’.
You lack of empathy saddens me. Apparently this is all academic to you. The people on this thread just faceless internet nobodies. Their rape stories mean nothing. You believe your words have no consequences, the triggers they pull are harmless.
I truly hope that one day you will wake up and realise what a thoughtless toad you have been.
I honestly did miss that, I just saw the quoting of someone else so did not really read. I am very sorry if I am the cause of that hurt. Again, I do not nor should anyone ever, ever blame the victim or insinuate that it’s their fault. I’m sorry it came across that way. Didn’t mean it to, and tried to explain that I did not mean it to. Maybe it’s the tone of this fucking thread.
Hah, I typed my last post before amaclean brought up King, I swear. The march on Washington by the was given approval by the establishment with the condition that he take it over from the scary radicals who organized it in the first place. MLK deserves zero credit for that particular action, if anything he diluted it’s meaning.
I’m going to stop before I say something I’ll regret. Rape victims, I’m sorry if I triggered something. Honestly. Please don’t cry. I would give you a hug if I could.
So I am the equivalent of a rapist because I accompany my friends back from parties late at night. And I harm women because I state that I do so. Got it.
Don’t be obtuse. And spare us the self-pity and white knighting.
We have stated that you are a contributor to rape culture by reinforcing attitudes about women’s behaviour. No, this does not make you Hitler, or Pol Pot or any other false equivalence. It certainly does not make you a rapist.
However, it *does* mean you are not the virtuous person you think you are and we are trying, clearly with little success, to pound that into your brain. And we are using harsh words because of a belief that you would be equally obtuse if we used kind ones.
This is the kind of thing where you need to go away, synthesize all that’s been said here, and reach the ashamed conclusion that you are not the man you see yourself to be. If you glean any wisdom from this punishing encounter I hope that you will vow to live your life differently, starting with ‘not-contributing-even-indirectly-to-a-victim-blaming-culture’.
I think most posters have it covered here. I’m certainly thankful for all those who are taking the time and using their energy to fight against imbeciles. I… can’t, so I’ll restrict myself to pedantry and academia here.
Ahem.
amaclean:
You have an overly simple view of behavoural modification techniques. No, neither Skinner nor any of his successors ever showed that ‘vitriol’ is always less effective than ‘techniques that do not induce resentment’. Such conclusions are heavily dependent on context and the specific desired behavioural outcome.
“Reinforcement”, whether positive reinforcement (giving a reward) or negative reinforcement (removing an ongoing unpleasant stimulus) only works if you actually perform a desired behaviour.
If a desired (or ‘alternative to undesired’) behaviour is not performed, the only option available is “punishment”. That can be positive punishment, i.e. administering a negative consequence to a given action, or negative punishment, i.e. removing or withholding a reward.
NB: I am speaking of ‘voluntary’ behaviours here. That’s important. Keep that in mind, or you’ll get terribly confused and start spouting all sorts of nonsense.
Now, in encouraging the performance of a specific voluntary behaviour or behavioural sequence, yes a combination of ‘positive reinforcement’ (of desired behaviour) and ‘negative punishment’ (withholding reward for undesired behaviour) is indeed the most effective method.
HOWEVER, “encouraging the performance of a specific behaviour” is NOT the same as “preventing an unwanted voluntary behaviour”.
Strong positive punishment (i.e. administering a punishment) is indeed VERY effective in preventing specific unwanted voluntary behaviours from recurring. In the absence of the exhibition of alternate (desired) behaviours, it is in fact the ONLY way to prevent recurrence of voluntary behaviours that are inherently rewarding in and of themselves. Ignoring unwanted behaviour – withholding reward – ONLY works when the behaviour is not rewarding in and of itself. Negative punishment can NEVER override rewarding of a behaviour, regardless of where that reward comes from.
That is why ‘just ignore the trolls’ doesn’t work. And that is why ‘just ignore the racism/sexism/misogyny/rape-culture/current-societal-norms-that-oppress-people’… DOES. NOT. WORK.
Incidentally, by chiding posters here about their tone you’re also using ‘positive punishment’. So… “setting an example” fail :( And unfortunately for you, you’re just not in a position for the ‘punishment’ you’re doling out to have any real effect, except on those who have already been victimized. I have to think by your responses that you really don’t realize the pain you’re causing in this thread.
That you refuse to see past the profanity and righteous anger of the posters here to deal with the heart of the matter is a failing on your part, not theirs.
Of course all this behaviourist stuff is great, but humans have a shortcut: language. We can explain to each other what behaviour we want to see! Fantastic, no? Let’s try it:
Stop posting. That should at least get you a good dose of negative reinforcement.
Post a blanket apology, without making excuses. Use one short sentence to say what exactly you’re apologizing for. Look up ‘notpology’ or ‘nonpology’ if you’re unclear on what NOT to do. Hey, look, more negative reinforcement! Might even get you some positive reinforcement if people are feeling generous.
(Sorry for length. My posting style varies with my mood from ‘laid-back-lurking’ to ‘irritated kinda wordy quip’ to ‘outraged pedantic’. Determining which mood I’m currently in is left as an exercise for the reader.)
Fuck you too, Cipher. Look, you can’t expect someone to be nice when you’re being a complete fucking bitch to them. Fuck Pharyngula, this site has been ridiculously politically correct for a while, and disgustingly self-righteous. If the little things I said really are that terrible, what the hell do you people do in the real world, let alone the rest of the internet. Live in your damn bubble and bitch at internet posters if it makes you feel better, but it’s not going to do anything but inspire anger. Why don’t you go join WEAVE or something, or actually make a difference instead of standing in your goddamn ivory tower judging everyone else and telling them how terrible they are for not agreeing with you. You don’t know me, you do not have the right.
Again, I do not nor should anyone ever, ever blame the victim or insinuate that it’s their fault.
I’m tired. It’s late. But I need to say this:
You are not the one who gets to decide if you are blaming the victim or insinuating that it is their fault. The victims are the ones who get to decide this. Whether or not you mean to is not the issue. What effect you are actually having is dictated by those who you are impacting, and those people have not been silent about your influence.
You will do with this whatever you want. I am just a voice on the internet, and I am not even the most moving of the voices that have spoken to you. But I hope that when you step away from the computer, when you have time to think and feel and process, you will really take to heart the effect your actions are having on other people, and if you have good intentions, you will work to make your intentions match your effects. Because right now the effects you are having are decisively negative.
Fuck you too, Cipher. Look, you can’t expect someone to be nice when you’re being a complete fucking bitch to them. Fuck Pharyngula, this site has been ridiculously politically correct for a while, and disgustingly self-righteous. If the little things I said really are that terrible, what the hell do you people do in the real world, let alone the rest of the internet. Live in your damn bubble and bitch at internet posters if it makes you feel better, but it’s not going to do anything but inspire anger. Why don’t you go join WEAVE or something, or actually make a difference instead of standing in your goddamn ivory tower judging everyone else and telling them how terrible they are for not agreeing with you. You don’t know me, you do not have the right.
Okay, amaclean, I want you to consider for a moment how you are feeling. How angry, how defensive, how aggressive. I want you to consider how you have lashed out at people on the internet who have said things to you that you consider to be cruel.
And I want you to consider how rape survivors must feel, because they not only deal with words on the internet, they deal with being triggered with their sexual trauma. If people being “mean” to you on the internet can make you react this way, perhaps you can try to understand why rape survivors might react so negatively to what you have said to them. Because they have endured far more than you have.
Fuck you too, Cipher. Look, you can’t expect someone to be nice when you’re being a complete fucking bitch to them.
Aaaaad, you’ve lost it.
We don’t want you to be nice, we want you to stop participating in victim-blaming culture.
Fuck Pharyngula, this site has been ridiculously politically correct for a while, and disgustingly self-righteous.
Ah, the word ‘politically correct’. Someone who trots that out reveals their colours.
If the little things I said really are that terrible, what the hell do you people do in the real world, let alone the rest of the internet.
And here we have the problem in a nutshell. Belief that one form of casual low-grade sexism is acceptable speech, while not realising that it is, like the snowflake that adds to the avalanche, a part of the problem.
Maybe part of the solution is to get on board and realise that attitudes and cultures are not immutable and can be changed if we can get a critical mass simply changing their behaviour. You are in a position to help on this but choose not to, apparently not because it is hard but because you don’t see it is necessary.
You don’t know me, you do not have the right.
Actually we know enough about you to call you on it. Now, kindly go away and reflect on what has been said here. I hope you reach the conclusion that you are part of the problem and resolve to do better.
standing in your goddamn ivory tower judging everyone else and telling them how terrible they are for not agreeing with you. You don’t know me, you do not have the right.
You haven’t shown much knowledge about pharygulites yourself, but apparently you can comment on any of us or all.
Erista (aka Eris) put it clearly, kindly and well.
Do try the link and do think about what xe said. How could it hurt?
Fuck you too, Cipher. Look, you can’t expect someone to be nice when you’re being a complete fucking bitch to them.
Did you really, actually just call me a bitch?
Actually, it’s been a while!
I don’t give two microfucks for nice. I want you to stop being a harmful asshole to trauma victims, and I want you to stop trying to tell us how it is appropriate to react.
Fuck Pharyngula, this site has been ridiculously politically correct for a while, and disgustingly self-righteous.
How sad. You think “politically correct” is a real thing.
As for our self-righteousness, I’ll go ahead and say this: I don’t mind being “self-righteous” when the question is my fucking bodily autonomy.
If the little things I said really are that terrible, what the hell do you people do in the real world, let alone the rest of the internet.
Do you want the honest answer to that question, or would it interrupt your misguided little tirade?
Live in your damn bubble and bitch at internet posters if it makes you feel better, but it’s not going to do anything but inspire anger. Why don’t you go join WEAVE or something, or actually make a difference instead of standing in your goddamn ivory tower judging everyone else and telling them how terrible they are for not agreeing with you. You don’t know me, you do not have the right.
My goddamn fucking ivory tower? You pathetic little puddle of slime, have you been fucking reading this thread? I am, without a single fucking shred of doubt, more experienced, more scarred, more actively involved in this issue than you could possibly hope to be. So are numerous other posters on this thread, but you made the mistake of aiming your little tantrum at me. All right. You want to know about my fucking ivory tower?
My ivory tower is the bedroom I live locked in because my second rapist and abuser, whom I lived with for almost a year, made me afraid of being in open spaces.
My ivory tower is, every time I leave, having to worry about when the next flashback will happen, when the next panic attack is coming, when the startle reaction will really hurt someone. My ivory tower is spending my life putting just enough pieces of myself together to make it through a day, and sometimes waking up not knowing who I am because my sense of self has been shattered. My ivory tower is knowing that I have been forced away from everyone I loved because I can’t bear to inflict the pain of knowing on them. My ivory tower is knowing that some of those people wouldn’t believe me even if I told them. My ivory tower is knowing that I can’t tell my family what happened to me, because even after everything my first rapist did to me, I still don’t want him to turn up dead somewhere. Here’s what he did to me, by the way:
The first time he raped me, him drunk, me trying to crawl away sobbing as he held me under him, threw me down on the carpet again and again – I felt hurt, ashamed, but most of all I felt like I had let him down, because I did not do what he wanted me to do. Of course I wouldn’t report – it wasn’t as though he had done anything wrong, he just forced me to stay still and let him fuck me when I didn’t want him to. The second, third, fourth times – in his parents’ house, in his friend’s apartment, me first saying no, then crying and begging him to stop because I was so afraid and it hurt so much, then just lying there with tears streaming down my face until he finished – even I began to realize he shouldn’t be doing it, even to me. I confronted him once, briefly – brought up the word rape. He looked at me, said “That was rape?” And I dropped the subject. I loved him. I didn’t want to hurt him. Of course I didn’t report. If anyone believed me, it would ruin his life, and who was I to do that to him? But my relationship with him began to break me down. It wasn’t just the repeated rapes – which I scrambled with little success to bury. It was the fighting, the lies, the gaslighting. When I objected, he called me crazy. Anything I said wrong, he called me insane, sick.
Yeah. I sure as shit shouldn’t judge you from the lofty heights of my fucking ivory tower, because it’s not like I know anything about your life. Gee, I must have made you feel just terrible, saying that you were being a callous asshole. I’m so broken up about how fucking judged you feel. Poor baby.
You are truly awesome. Thank you again for being prepared to speak about your life. It reminds me that I have been one lucky woman and that there are women all around me who are unbelievably brave and strong, carrying on with life as best they can.
I’m old. My own experiences of rape are far in the past. And it took years, but I finally learned one lesson; it never was my fault.
Since then, I’ve talked with many people, friends and family, including my own kids, and the one thing I always end up saying, over and over is, “It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It never was your fault. It’s not your fault.”
It has to be repeated so many times, because every single one of those rape and abuse victims blame themselves first. And so I say, again, “It’s not your fault.”
And then someone comes along and says, “But you should have …, you shouldn’t have …” In other words, “It is your fault.”
I believe what we have here in amaclean is someone who believes he is virtuous, an ally of women, a self-identified ‘good guy’. (I’m making the assumption that this is a man.) We also have a guy who is new to the arguments, untutored and way out of his depth. (Which to be fair I was at one time in my life.)
He has a lot of unexamined privilege, and it will take a long time and many long arguments before he begins to understand what privilege is and that he is, indeed, a beneficiary of it. And like anyone coming to these arguments fresh he has a lot of naive opinions that he feels he has to share with us, not realising that not only have they been heard before, but that some of them are actively distasteful and will trigger a strong reaction.
His response to us has been a mixture of bewilderment and attempts to assert his own dignity and a measure of control. As we can smell blood when he does this it only encourages us to pile in more. A sensible strategy would have been to withdraw and read and comprehend what was being said.
The best response from this is if he goes away, calms down, does some reading and comes to the self-realisation that he is not the virtuous soul he reckons himself to be. We can only hope he goes this route. Otherwise, it will be the comfort of MRA forums for this fellow, where he can show his battle-scars from run-ins with radical man-hating feminists and damn us all for our wicked political correctness.
Geeze yeah, that sympathy I had for a short while? Totally flushed down the toilet.
For fuck sake, your pwecious little fee-fees about people being meeeeean to you on the interwebz are worth less than five tenths of a percent of fuck all in comparison to the feelings of the actual rape victims. Rape victims who have, despite their trauma, done their level best to educate you while you continue, over and over, to blame them for their trauma. If you really are a teenage girl and not a fucking liar, then I do still retain enough sympathy for your idiotic and willful naivete to hope that you never need to learn the lesson in person.
That’s egg on my face, then. The Japanese have a word for this: ‘Jibaku’, which originally meant ‘suicide by hand grenade’ and now means ‘ I embarrassed myself’.
In which case I ‘fess up and admit that some of what I have said about her is in error and should be discounted. Apologies for the misattribution. I resolve to do better and pay closer attention in future.
Cipher, that was really powerful, and revealing. The bit that got me was his question “That was rape?” – it instantiates that comment near the start of the thread where somebody said that our culture has a meme that women would really enjoy rape anyway.
amaclean:
If the little things I said really are that terrible, what the hell do you people do in the real world, let alone the rest of the internet.
It’s about power, and you concede a lot when you acquiesce to authority for the sake of harmony.
What do I do in real life? I don’t take nonsense from anybody. Can I take a (misogynistic) joke? No, not even from the CEO. I don’t care how minor the infraction is. I’m lucky that I have enough privilege of various types to be able to make that work. And my prickliness in this regard, I have been informed, has protected and encouraged other women and made for a safer workplace. Even guys have come up to me and commented on the change in atmosphere for the better where they had thought that having a woman around would ruin everything.
But I have professional privilege that not everybody has. It is important for those who have any sort of privilege at all to be loud and clear that abuse of power, such as you have read about in these comments from Cipher and others, is wrong.
I really hope amaclean can look back at this exchange in the near future and realize what a complete fucking pile of scum she was. When I was a young teenager I was in a similar boat of being a part of rape culture and at times being misogynistic without realizing it. I never got into a discussion/debate about it with anybody who actually comprehended and understood feminism properly(which is unfortunate), but I did slowly start to transition out of being a fuckwad as I read more about feminism and became more attentive of society and in general gained more experience as I developed as a person.
But despite slowly learning and growing, there was a huge nearly instantaneous transition when you realize, “Wow, I was such a fucking pile of shit – how could I have possibly thought such things?” And while I still hate to think about it and really wish I wasn’t so damn fucked up in my younger days, accepting that indeed, I was a horrible person, is a crucial step that IMO takes away nearly all the obtuseness amaclean is displaying now.
I probably made every apologist argument on feminism related issues when I was younger, but people definitely do change when exposed to reasoning and explanation. It just sometimes takes long periods of mulling over until the (sometimes instantaneous) transition takes place where one realizes how fucked up they were.
And thanks to everybody here who takes the time and effort to reiterate these issues. I only started reading Pharyngula (and the comments within which I find invaluable) about 3 years ago, but I wish I had started much earlier.
I find it a little unusual to follow a complaint about people’s tone with a complaint about “Political Correctness,” but I guess somehow that must make sense to you.
I’m fortunate too. For 25 years I worked in various courts trying to take down men who thought they could abuse their wives and kids and no one would oppose them. I understand a bit of what the spouses and kids felt because these heroes would try out the same techniques on me, without the hitting. You hit a lawyer working for the prosecution side, you are going to jail. Even with the police at the courthouse and all that privilege, there were times I felt the threat, some fear. None of the weasels who stalked me ever went beyond that, but again, lucky me.
As I got more senior and (I like to think) more skilled, I got the cases involving violence and sexual perversion and drugs. Must say, I was never bored. When a judge saw through these fellows and made a strong order, I felt great.
One day, we were finishing up a case, and in the break, a bailiff said, “hey, it’s all girls day.” I looked around the court and realised everyone working there was a woman that day, bailiffs, reporters, registrar, the judge and me. I thought, it took long enough, but the system is responding to relentless pressure. If you don’t push, you don’t get movement.
Picking where to push and what for is part of the art of living. It’s one reason to be posting here, too. Although I understand from a reliable source, begins with j and ends with enny6833a, that no one ever comes here or reads this blog. Don’t know why so many trolls show up, though.
1 comments
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Amphiox
15 June 2012 at 8:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
In fact, I can’t think of one, even one, precaution that a woman (or man) can take that actually has a good chance of preventing rape that would also be considered “reasonable” by any rational or honest individual.
You could lock yourself in your home in total isolation from all contact with any other human being of either gender, I suppose.
And if you want to talk about “reasonable” precautions, I think, the first burden on you is to describe your proposed precaution and demonstrate that it actually works to prevent rape.
That should be the FIRST step before the conversation should go any further at all.
PZ Myers
15 June 2012 at 8:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The oneplusxxx asshole has been banned, and has skulked back at least once. Do not bother to reply to him, I will delete his comments as I catch up with them.
And what is this with another clueless whiner or two showing up as soon as I get rid of one? Could you people PLEASE STOP MAKING THE SAME STUPID ARGUMENTS. Read the thread. They’ve been dealt with multiple times.
John Morales
15 June 2012 at 8:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny6833a:
What, this? ?
(Such excellence! Such acceptance!)
adamgordon
15 June 2012 at 8:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Are you talking to me, or only to those who accept that I am out of my league?
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 8:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thanks jenny6833a,
Apparently I’m terrible at analogies and embarrassing myself for posting them. For some reason some people prefer they not be posted. I guess they don’t want me to embarrass myself. I’m really surprised about how much they don’t want me to post them. They apparently care about me so deeply.
Or maybe there is another reason? :-)
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 8:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Mills, pay attention. The breaking in and theft of stuff from your car analogy didn’t fucking fly. Your stupid analogy about lunch money doesn’t fucking work either. WOMEN ARE NOT THINGS! But you sure as fuck are trying to convince us otherwise you asshole.
Fuck you.
Also, another thing about your stupid analogy, tell your son’s fucking teacher. Why wasn’t that brought up? Is your son’s teacher like you?
Oh, of course that’s the assumption. Since you don’t fucking help to solve problems and make other people change themselves instead of going after the assholes. That’s so helpful to let a child steal lunch money. Either that kid needs discipline or needs help so they don’t have to steal to eat. Just assume the kid is a little theif that can’t be stopped or helped. Just like how people who tell women to change their behavoir since clearly them beastly men can’t control their urges.
Oh holy shit there’s so much fucking wrong with you and your stupid analogy.
Again, FUCK YOU.
CITATION FUCKING NEEDED.
Morons. This shit is just like “it’s counter intuitive that more rapes happen in the home than in alleys”. You know why it seems counter intuitive and common sense. BECAUSE OF OUR RAPE COULTER. People are taught and absorb shit from society from day fucking one, including shit asshole like you spew. Even if it’s been disproved by fucking facts and studies. Read the fucking links given to you.
I am so tired of dumbfucks telling me not to go out at night. That wouldn’t have fucking stopped my father or my abusive ex. Oh sure asshole atheists denounce and pounce of religions telling women to stay with their abusive exes and claim superiority. Yet here those same people are here supporting and defending rape culture, blaming me for my rapes. Great thanks, with allies like you who needs enemies?
'Tis Himself
15 June 2012 at 8:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amphiox #1
But commonsense and dark alleys and commonsense and big dogs and commonsense and get a big fucking gun and commonsense and anyway it’s always the victim’s fault for not using commonsense. At least that’s what Jenny tells us.
amaclean
15 June 2012 at 8:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
YOU are not to blame AT ALL. And I don’t think anyone here would ever sugest that. Your organization should perhaps screen leaders better; not that that would necessarily catch every bad guy, but my point is that one can make recommendation as to how to reduce crime without blaming the victim.
Jafafa Hots
15 June 2012 at 8:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m coming out of self-imposed exile just to tell Oneplus to go to hell.
I was an 11 year old boy when a man in the park grabbed me and sexually assaulted me. I couldn’t get free and thought at that moment “I’m dead. I didn’t think I would die so soon.”
After his orgasm he released me, I don’t remember the first several hundred yard but afterward as I walked briskly through a different section of the park and home, I took your advice.
I kept asking myself what I had done to make that man think I wanted him to do that to me. I kept scolding myself for being so careless, and I told myself I was “lucky” that he let me go and I had another chance not to make the same mistake.
My family abandoned me as they scattered due to their own issues, and as I found myself hungry I found myself a target again. I was this pretty little blond-haired boy – so of course, y’know, they couldn’t help themselves.
I spent the next few years not-always-successfully dodging two more pedophiles. Desperate for food, I let myself be lured, trying to never get caught alone in the same room with them. Didn’t always work.
I would make myself small and I would disappear up into the ceiling to get away. I “witnessed” it all from that safe space as a dot up in that ceiling, and I kept taking your advice – kept asking myself what I was doing to make these men think I wanted them to do what they were doing.
I blamed myself for not being able to support myself at get my OWN food, not having a job – at ages 11, 12, 13, 14. School, needless to say, was a secondary concern which is why my education stopped at 8th grade.
I did such a good job of taking your advice that, coupled with a few other unrelated traumas, I managed to work myself into a very nice case of PTSD.
I am 46 years old. TO THIS DAY I have never had and cannot have a relationship. When I HAVE wanted to be with a woman I’ve liked or loved, EVERY TIME, no matter how much I care about her, love her, lust for her, desire her, and no matter how much she wants me and does everything to let me know including taking ALL the initiative – I CAN’T STOP GOING UP INTO THE FUCKING CEILING.
Needless to say this doesn’t go over well with the women who have tried to start a relationship with me. They understandably feel confused and rejected.
So I am alone and will always be alone, and frankly I hate my life. I took your advice. I took responsibility for not having prevented larger stronger males from hurting me. I blamed myself, as you would at least partially blame me.
ITS BAD ADVICE. “What did I do wrong?!” “What could I have done differently?” RUINED MY LIFE.
So fuck off.
John Morales
15 June 2012 at 8:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
[meta]
millssg99:
Apparently you are, no less than you are terrible at sarcasm.
Apparently.
<snicker>
Apparently.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 8:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Pteryxx
OMFG yes.
Of course my cynical mind went directly to ways rapists could twist and turn to get a “yes” or say “her eyes said yes”.
Enthusiastic consent needs to be more well known and the base assumption of consent instead of just getting someone to say yes once.
Obviously I get that your assumption is that yes means yes. Just pointing out this to lurkers and such since I’ve been a victim of those assholes that twist what consent is to get away with shit.
eriktrips
15 June 2012 at 8:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
::delurk::
How is it that certain commenters seem to be unable to comprehend that there do not exist any “reasonable” precautions that can be taken to prevent rape? All of the “common sense” ones are simplistic homilies ignorant of how and when the majority of rapes occur; any that would reliably work in the contexts in which rapes actually occur are so specific to individual situations that they too unpredictable to prescribe for given population; rapists are intelligent (relatively, at least) creatures who will change their tactics as conditions require to be able to do what they do.
Etcetera. “Keeping the goods locked up” is not a useful analogy for how to prevent rape. Victims’ vulnerabilities–which vary from moment to moment–are not objectively discrete objects that can be surrounded by repellant or impenetrable barriers. Rape happens because rapists have the desire and tenacity to carry out their wishes. To get it right, this useless piece of advice should say instead that we need to lock up the perpetrators, because they are the only constant in the rape equation. But how do we predict who is going to rape, and when?
Here’s a story. At the age of 12, my body was still assigned the designation of female. I was recognized as a girl–despite my fervent wishes to be recognized in some other way. I was raped by a stranger, in broad daylight, around 3pm on a Sunday afternoon in a place where people were gathered, while wearing a jacket that was about five sizes too big for me, jeans and a t-shirt. I was a very young twelve, showing no signs of impending “womanhood,” and my grandmother was beachcombing nearby. Some random dude watched me play on the beach until I had managed to wander to a spot that was hidden in some low dunes. He tackled me from above and behind, and, well, I don’t feel like detailing the rest.
I never told anyone. Do you know why? Because on TV, in the early 70s, it was a common trope to show rape victims at trial being grilled on their backgrounds and how they comported themselves. Rape trials were portrayed as humiliating for rape victims. I had been molested and raped the previous year by a family member (middle of the day, at home, someone who was supposed to be trustworthty) and was both sworn to secrecy and under the impression that I was somehow complicit in it, despite having been coerced and manipulated and having my own naivete used against me.
I never told anyone back then because in the rape culture in which I lived, as it existed at the time, it was apparent to me that all my secrets would be uncovered in court if I reported the rape. I would be put on trial, not my rapist. Nevermind that I was 12 and, in the 70s at least, the press had not yet started blaming young girls for their own rapes like they do now. But I was a literal-minded kid. TV did not lie, in my mind.
My case is anecdotal evidence, of course, but it was a real situation, unlike the 3am-in-an-alley stereotyped stranger rape. Every rape victim has another one to share, if people would shut up and listen. But that might actually help victims to deal with what has happened to them, which is not nearly as important as those of you who deem yourselves so wise on the matter convincing yourselves that you know the secret to escape ever being raped.
All I can say is good luck. I hope it works when your number comes up. I truly do: nobody deserves to be raped. Nobody. Rape should not happen. But to get there from here is going to require a hell of a lot more than telling women where they should go and when, and what they should wear, and what they should do. That advice is of zero value.
Ok I am going to disappear behind the screen again and slowly simmer in my own rage.
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 8:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jajafa Hots:
You have my profound sympathy. I wish I could say something useful, something that would help.
Improbable Joe
15 June 2012 at 8:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m at a loss here…
I’m seeing the victims of rape and sexual abuse baring their souls here, and I feel so small and petty for even considering myself worthy of participating in this conversation. How empty does someone have to be to see that and just disregard all of that real pain and heartache and continue to troll the comments here for shits and grins?
John Morales
15 June 2012 at 8:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
[meta]
eriktrips, your words shan’t disappear.
That was very emotional but very very powerful.
Thank you.
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 8:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
eriktrips:
Again, you have my profound sympathy and I wish like hell I could say something useful or helpful.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ok I’ve had my fun mocking and snarking at people. Now fun is over. I’m not laughing now. At. All.
A few things we can tell
1) The victim blaming “prevention” is well addressed already. Continuing to repeat it regardless of how much of a new metaphor you put on it doesn’t change the fact that it’s demolished 69 ways from Humpday. It doesn’t work, its insulting, it offends real rape victims, it’s demoralizing, it’s excusing. There’s no reason to keep making the argument. It’s done. Over.
2) It’s been made clear there are real victims and survivors here. Some have actively said how that argument offends and diminishes them. This is well demonstrated anyone who is here knows this by now.
Those two things make it painfully clear that the only reason these people are still talking is because they want to troll and offend rape victims. You sicken me, you are basically the net equivalent of flashers shoving your junk in people’s face. It is at the point that you know enough that to do this you basically either want to trigger someone or don’t care if you do.
I am not laughing. You’re lucky PZ runs the show instead of someone like me because at this point I not only would ban you, I’d IP check and do anything I could to out you because I’d want everyone to know what a disgusting piece of shit you are. I’d want everyone at a conference to know to keep distance from you and not to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are scum.
amaclean
15 June 2012 at 8:26 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
eriktrips: I am truly sorry you went through that. Again, I am not saying I have the key to prevent rape, and I realize that perhaps my posts could be misinterpreted as blaming the victim. However, I NEVER said to tell women not to wear this or that. I expressly said the opposite of that. Personally, I will wear whatever the hell I want, and I wouldn’t want anyone telling me otherwise. And I AGREE that many rapes are not preventable, and there was nothing the victim could have done to prevent it, whether she/he stayed in her/his house in the nicest neighborhood ever but was still assaulted by the stepfather or uncle. It’s terrible, and it happens, and it’s something that no one should EVER have to go through. My point is, though, that it should not be taken as offensive to tell a friend not to go out drunk or high alone in the middle of the night. Crime (not just rape) does happen at that time in that situation more than it does if you choose to stay the night at a trusted friend’s house instead. If she ignores your advice and gets hurt, she’s not to blame, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t warn people anyway.
'Tis Himself
15 June 2012 at 8:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Okay, mills and Jenny, explain to Jajafa Hots and eriktrips what precautions they failed to take. Be specific. Or admit you’re both talking out of your victim-blaming asses.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hear that all you fucking assholes. That is you. You are doing this right now. Seriously, I am not using hyperbole or joking or kidding anymore with you shits. You are acting as accomplices to rape.
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 8:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Those defense tricks MAY help someone escape from a determined or stranger-type assailant, IF the victim’s already made the decision to fight back.
However, try and use hairspray or car keys on a rapey acquaintance in a party full of his friends, and you’ll likely be charged with assault.
Trying to fight back against an abusive partner increases the odds that you’ll be hospitalized or die.
None of that will reduce the incidence of rape. AT BEST, in a very specific and unusual situation, it might let one victim break away so the pissed-off rapist can go hunt for another one.
These defend-yourself tricks don’t take into account the rapist who turns violent at any sign of resistance. The narrative doesn’t include terrified victims who wisely did NOT fight back against a violent aggressor, and thus escaped with their lives and relatively uninjured compared to the combative victims who get beaten up or killed.
Sure, list tricks, but always leave the decision-making to the person who actually has to survive.
eriktrips
15 June 2012 at 8:29 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh wait. I lied.
To the regulars here who are quick to school the exasperatingly predictable writers of apologies and derails: thank you. You make it possible to lurk, because these people are almost always dispatched quickly and with flair.
Also, I have been reading here for a few years. Broadly speaking, the atmosphere here has become more and more forbidding of foolishness, blather, and run-of-the-mill privilege and prejudice. I, for one, really appreciate that.
OK now I will go back behind this curtain here.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:29 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
oh shut the fuck up.
jenny6833a
15 June 2012 at 8:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If I thought my husband or son would commit rape, I would.
However, I have 24 years experience with my husband and our son has been brainwashed on the topic since he was old enough to listen. I don’t think I need to.
With our daughter, however, I remind her from time to time that all men aren’t like the ones in our family.
I fully agree that it’s “oppressive to women to be constantly reminded that they have to be always vigilant…” But if that reminder saves the trauma of rape, I regard it as the wise thing to do.
And when any of them take the car, I say “Drive safely.” That’s an expression of love, and they understand that.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 8:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Because the concepts that you’re presenting here are mutually exclusive. “Take responsibility for your safety” and “if anything bad happens to you, it’s not your fault” are not compatible. How can I only take responsibility if I succeed?
Also, it’s been pointed out more than once that the majority of rapes occur in situations that “rape prevention tipz” will not help with, and you and the others of your ilk continue to ignore that point.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You know what would actually help these hypothetical rapes? If our imaginary cops would fucking deal with the problem that there’s apparently times and places that rape is nigh inevitable. If it’s common sense to avoid these places and times why the fuck aren’t the cops doing shit?
Seriously, shut your pie holes.
amaclean
15 June 2012 at 8:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m leaving, you people are fucking ridiculous. It is terrible that people get raped, and who the fuck are you to assume that rape has not affected anyone in my life? (It has, my mom was sexually abused by her father.) I was making a VERY REASONABLE , mild point, and all you seem to get out of it is that I encourage rape, hate rape victims, and kill people because I enjoy that sort of thing. Now go back to patting yourselves on the back. I have enjoyed reading Pharyngula but everyone is getting too groupthink and fucking violent here. Proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life (and I do realize that I would not make this post with f-bombs in real life myself).
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
please tell this to everyone here who was rapped. Who is asking you what they did wrong.
You don’t give a flying FUCK about what happens to other people. All you care about is your pathetic security blanket. Your childish belief that you can follow the magic rules and be ‘safe’. You fucking baby. GROW UP
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
listen here you little pissguzzler. You think this is fucking VIOLENCE? PEOPLE HERE WERE RAPED and you hurt them. You fucking selfish swine. You want send me an e-mail and I will fucking skype you and say it face to face. Hell if you’re close enough I WILL FUCKING MEET YOU TO YELL AT YOU. So long, good riddance, I hope you stay “safe”
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 8:36 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Actually I would find that pretty fucking offensive. If I gave a shit about my friend, I’d offer to go with them, give them a ride, or offer my couch for the night; or at the very least ask to call them around the time they should be home.
Improbable Joe
15 June 2012 at 8:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean, the only one here being cruel is YOU. Other people are baring their deepest pain for the world to see, for YOU to see so that maybe you’ll shut up for a minute, stop trying to score debate points, and actually understand what people are trying to explain to you. Instead of being empathetic and maybe putting your own feelings and need to win aside, you just keep plowing forward with your nonsense. You’re so sure that you’re right that you just don’t care who you hurt in the process, do you?
horace
15 June 2012 at 8:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
There is a very simple difference between a woman saying to you:
-any woman should be able to go into a bar naked and not be molested.
-I am going to go into a biker’s bar naked tonight.
I hope that everyone here would react differently to them.
No one can be completely sure that they will not be raped/murdered/assaulted, but there are reasonable precautions that everyone can take.
Audley Z Darkheart (liar and scoundrel)
15 June 2012 at 8:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“And don’t get raped!”
Here’s the thing: you can cause a car accident by yourself. You can screw up and hurt yourself, total your car, whatever.
You cannot rape yourself. You cannot cause another person to rape you.
What the fuck is wrong with you, Jenny?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 8:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And how about when the constant reminder of the importance of vigilance compounds the trauma by adding to the fuckload of victim-blaming people are already subjected to, like you’re doing to several rape survivors now?
Look. I did everything right. I actually used to be a teetotaller. I was monogamous and never went to parties, and when I went out at night, I was vigilant and careful and on edge and usually with friends. And still, when I was raped, five times by two different men, I blamed myself. I blamed myself so hard and so long that I convinced myself it wasn’t the men’s fault at all, and that I should forgive them, and when I couldn’t, I blamed myself for that too. Because it wouldn’t have happened if I’d just taken “reasonable precautions” like not trusting anybody, ever, or like not provoking them by having a body. You? With your shit about how we should all take “reasonable precautions” to avoid a crime that for the most part happens in situations where those precautions would do nothing? You’re part of the problem.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
15 June 2012 at 8:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Anybody surprised that Horace is a rape apologist? I’m not.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 8:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean
Motherfucking liar.
Telling a friend that when they are sober is a way to rub it in and say “I told you so”.
Telling a friend while they are drunk, “hey let’s stay here you (we) are drunk and stupid” is different, just like having a designationed sober person.
Telling women to no go out late at night or to be out alone alone whether drinking or not, AS A RAPE PREVENTION TIP IS NOT FUCKING HELPFUL. Telling someone that to prevent fucking crime, any crime as you say, is fucking condescending. It assumes they don’t fucking know the dangers already like a child. It assumes they shouldn’t have been there. It assumes that they had another choice, a better less risky choice and shouldn’t have made that decision.
Do you truly see how saying to someone ” You’re not to blame but you shouldn’t have been out at night” is fucking blaming, shaming and un-fucking-helpful. The BUT in that sentence completely negates what was said before it. Same shit as “I’m not a rapist but…”.
I fucking loathe you and people like you.
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 8:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh you didn’t just.
I’m glad you’re happy with your family. I really am. But you *cannot* assume that makes you exempt. I didn’t think *my* partner was capable of rape until ten years after he’d raped me.
Full consent has to be the expectation, from *everyone*, all the time, no matter who they are.
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 8:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jenny:
What should Jajafa Hots, eriktrips, or I, have done? What specific strategies would have worked for us? All three of us were raped in the daytime. In public places. We were not drinking. We were not doing drugs. So what is your advice? What should I have done?
And, like eriktrips, I never told a soul. Wife does not know. Part of it was that I knew I would never be believed. First, I had a reputation as a storyteller. Not a liar, but I could spin a really good yarn back then — enough to keep classmates interested for a half an hour or more. Second, the cub scout leader was a Well Respected Man in our community, a stakeholder in the local Mormon Church, a father and a Good Family Man. Third, I knew that what had happened to me was not supposed to happen to a boy. And last was the peer pressure to just shut up and pretend it never happened. And we did.
See, even though I couldn’t pin down why, I knew back then that I should be ashamed. Me, not the rapist, I was at fault. Do you understand that? Do you understand that when you tell women they should take precautions they already are and it doesn’t stop the rapes? They still happen. They happen again and again and again. And they are left with the thoughts, what should I have done, what did I do wrong? And they know that if they do report the rape, except in rare communities, the ordeal of police, and prosecutor, and family, and friends can be almost as bad as the rape?
I am lucky. I am now a 46-year-old man who is, all things considered, pretty damn stable. I am about 6 feet tall and weight in at about 19 stone. People do not screw with me anymore because I am physically imposing. I do not have to be paranoid. I’m lucky.
So, jenny, what should I have done differently? Or any of the other real people here who are showing a shitload of bravery in the face of your consistent and unconscionable victim blaming?
No One
15 June 2012 at 8:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
To some only the carrot and the stick exist. How about altering the thieves viewpoint. A good lesson for both children and better for society.
Kinda like what PZ tried to do with the cartoon he posted.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 8:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I think that’s where a lot of this bullshit comes from: thinking women are fucking stupid. They continually show it with their fucking “tips”, like women don’t know the risks or how to protect themselves, and all their godawful “I tell my child not to touch the stove” or “I tell my kid not to leave money on the school desk” arguments: women are either stupid or they’re property. None of these fuckrockets have come up with a single analogy that actually fits with what the crime of rape is.
Audley Z Darkheart (liar and scoundrel)
15 June 2012 at 8:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
GODDAMNIT STOP WITH THE TIPS, ASSHOLE.
Just read the rest of the thread, Horace and shut your fucking gob.
And, as long as I’m smacking down stupid fucking arguments:
Rapists don’t have a specific “look”, moron, nor do they have any particular hobbies or lifestyle. How the fuck do you think priests get away with it? It’s a combination of the church protecting them and the fact that they don’t look like a fucking threat.
(Also, an anecdote: The biker bar in my town has the reputation for being the safest place to go have a drink. So what now, douchebucket?)
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Know what you should do to prevent racism? Not be black. Try to be as white as possible. Sure that just means the Klan will lynch some other poor bastard, but it keeps you safe! Don’t piss off the Klan, be respectful to them, say Yes Sir or Yes Maam when yous ee a white person on the street, move to the other side of the street when they walk the other way, let them get in front of you online, give up your seat for them, if they run out of toilet paper offer to rim them clean: that way they’ll lynch some other poor bastard. It’ll keep you safe at the expense of someone else, and all it cost you was dignity and your worth as a human
OR we could address the fact that the criminal activity is being committed.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 8:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“How is it that certain commenters seem to be unable to comprehend that there do not exist any “reasonable” precautions that can be taken to prevent rape?”
There seem to be differing opinions upon this. Some posters who are posting in favor of “rape culture” seem to disagree with you on this. Amphiox as a recent example in a long post.
Are there many rapes where no reasonable precautions would have mattered or could be foreseen or could be taken? Yes. No matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn’t change the fact that there are situations that can be avoided.
Saying that someone who thinks it would be wise for his teenage daughter to not walk alone at night in a dangerous area, or put herself in positions with drunk boys that could be avoided, and equating that with a 11 year old being raped by his uncle doesn’t help anything. Saying that would prevent a trusted family member from raping her in no way means she should throw all caution to the wind with drunk boys and dangerous areas.
Those are different situations. I buy a car that I consider relatively safe. It has a lot of safety features. The fact I could be t-boned by an 18 wheeler is not an argument that I shouldn’t have airbags. Just because they don’t help in all cases don’t mean they don’t help in some.
There seem to be people here who don’t care at all about reasonable arguments and just tell anyone who disagrees to fuck off.
My position.
1) Some people blame victims.
2) Some people don’t blame victims and blame the criminals that deserve 100% of the blame.
3) Some people believe in reasonable precautions and that it is OK to verbalize them.
I think that being in groups 2 & 3 is a reasonable position. It is mine.
You can disagree.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 8:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Watching you post is like watching a creationist running his mouth about the great mystery of why there are still monkeys. It is so stupid that it is PAINFUL TO WATCH.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
OH CAN I!? LET ME DO SO WITH MUCH VENOM! NOW THAT I HAVE YOUR PERMISSION!
WHAT PRECAUTIONS DID THE PEOPLE WHO WERE RAPED HERE MISS YOU FUCKING SCUM BAG
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 8:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
OK, then, “take precautions!” dudes. Let us, just for the sake of the argument, briefly assume that some kinds of precautions do deter some rapists. Say, I have my own personal magical anti-rape power, guaranteed to deter 95% of stranger-rapists! As long as I don’t roll a 20, I’m safe! Go me!
But what happens next? Will the stranger-rapist lurking by the alley near the bar see me walking by in my fabulous Rapist-B-gone armour suit, and just shrug and go home? Or is it, perhaps, not about me personally? Might that rapist actually just wait to choose someone who looks like an easier target? So how did me taking precautions actually prevent rape?
(or, what coleslaw said @236.)
One thing that I think has not yet been mentioned is the abuse that women get when we happen to mention that we do “take precautions”, like not getting in an elevator late at night with a stranger. BAWWWW YOU ARE CALLING ME A RAPIST!! So do go ahead and take precautions, ladies, but make sure that no men ever notice that you are doing so! Because that would be extremely rude and hostile and radfemmy feminazi misandric of you. And then you would deserve to be raped for being an uppity bitch!
John Morales
15 June 2012 at 8:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
[meta]
amaclean:
OK, we’re all too groupthink and fucking violent here, which is proof that the internet makes people bolder and crueler than they are in real life.
(You, however, are above all that, and truly have you deigned to grace us with your presence and wisdom)
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
It’s appropriate you have such great hindsight considering where your face is located
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 8:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I would give anything right now for magic teleporting pain beams powered by rage thoughts.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
15 June 2012 at 8:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And I do. Because the only absolute way to avoid rape in a rape culture is to commit suicide before it happens. All your “reasonable” shit is shit. It doesn’t really change the outcome and is window dressing, making you feel good while you blame other people. That is why you are seen as a rape apologist.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 8:53 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
That’s because people already know them, asshole. They take those precautions and rape still happens, and all you’ve done by putting the onus for their safety on them is that they blame themselves. Great fucking job, screwgun.
You’re not being helpful or nice. You’re being condescending AND victim-blaming, you just refuse to see it.
I already pointed out once that “you’re responsible for your own safety” and “the criminal has 100% of the blame” are mutually exclusive concepts. Jesus.
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 8:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And the extension of your point is used by rapists, the police, churches, the courts, families, etc., to blame the victim. It happens in real life. And you don’t care.
Sad.
Women are aware of risk and try to mitigate those risks in ways that men can almost never comprehend. And it does not stop rape. And all of the advice telling women what they should and should not do is used as a weapon to blame the victims. And you don’t care.
========
Cipher:
Again, you have my deepest sympathy and I really wish there was something useful I could write.
=========
Thank you so very much for allowing me to disagree with you. Your reasonable precautions do not prevent rape.
what reasonable precautions could I, or Cipher, or Jajafa Hots, or eriktrips, have taken? Be specific.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 8:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes. Situations can be avoided. If you’re not in an alley at 3 in the morning, you are virtually guaranteed not to be raped in that alley at 3 in the morning. Similarly, if I was never in my bedroom, I can pretty much guarantee you that I would not have been raped in my bedroom. In fact, considering that the proportion of rapes taking place in the victim’s homes (40%) is larger than the proportion of rapes taking place outside (4%), I think maybe we should tell women to take reasonable precautions against rape by avoiding being in their homes as much as possible. Of course, staying at home doesn’t fit your preconceived narrative of Dangerous Female Behavior, so THAT would be unreasonable.
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 8:57 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Really, I don’t expect too many 11-year-olds are reading this thread, much less that said 11-year-olds haven’t already internalized the cultural narrative of victim-blaming and secrecy. (And, no small number of said hypothetical 11-year-olds of whatever gender have already been raped.)
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 9:00 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny6833a
If I thought my husband or son would commit rape, I would.
However, I have 24 years experience with my husband and our son has been brainwashed on the topic since he was old enough to listen. I don’t think I need to. </blockquote
Meet the fucking predators
Dumbass. And you claim to be helping to prevent rape. You don’t even know who we are fighting against. It includes people like you .
Why do you assume your daughter is a fucking dumbass?
Nice to know you’re keeping the patriarchy strong by oppressing your own fucking daughter since clearly all women are too stupid to know better. Rather ironic coming from her own mother…
Also, This shit doesn’t prevent rape! How many fucking times do we need to tell you until you finally fucking get it? You are telling this shit to rape victims . What is the fucking point of telling us this shit?
You are not my fucking family. You are not my fucking friend. You are not my ally. You do not love or even give a shit about me. You telling me this rape apologetic bullshit as a fucking rape victim to rub it in. You, admittedly, oppress me with this shit to keep me in my place. You are my fucking enemy, chill girl, and I’m fighting for my life, my child’s life.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Some people say there are no reasonable precautions and call you a fucktard or tell you to fuck off for suggesting it. Then somebody else calls you an asshole because people already know the reasonable precautions.
It’s a lovely show you are all putting on here.
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I think we can all agree that common sense dictates that one can take precautions against violent groupthink by staying off of the internet.
Be safe, amaclean!
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ
15 June 2012 at 9:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millssg99, please stop.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes we are. You are an ass, ass
I’m sorry what part of this is funny to you?
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This made me laugh, because if we disagree, we’re being dissonant, and if we all agree, then groupthink! Apparently we’re wrong no matter what we do. Pick one and stick with it, cupcake.
Also, not our fault that you don’t understand that the precautions aren’t reasonable because they usually don’t work unless taken to an absurd degree, that most women take them anyway, and then…wait for it…they don’t work. The Deep Rifts you think you see aren’t there.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“In fact, considering that the proportion of rapes taking place in the victim’s homes (40%) is larger than the proportion of rapes taking place outside (4%)”
Where do the other 56% of the rapes take place?
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
15 June 2012 at 9:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Your ignorance, presuppositional non-thinking, and fuckwittery are astounding. Not a cogent and relevant thought to date. Care to show us more attitude, ignorance, and stoopidity with further posts?
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
cut it out
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 9:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
mills, women are aware of the precautions and they take them when possible. And you know what? It still doesn’t work. Women still get raped. And they some asshole like you comes along and tells them, ‘Well, if you had only taken some common-sense precautions . . . ” what? It wouldn’t have happened? It would have happened to someone else? It is adding another layer of guilt to the blame the victim is already assigning to herself.
And why are you still ignoring all of the examples given showing how all of your rape prevention tips can, and are, used to blame victims? Or do you just not care?
What precautions should I have taken? Be the only boy in 4th or 5th grade who doesn’t join scouts? What should I have done to prevent it? Please be specific.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh dear. Can’t even think of options besides “one’s own home” and “outside”. That’s pretty sad, millssg99.
No One
15 June 2012 at 9:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And you sir have come here to do exactly what? Help people? Be honest with yourself.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“This made me laugh, because if we disagree, we’re being dissonant, and if we all agree, then groupthink! ”
Not at all. You respond to one person and then the tag teamer comes in and attacks you for responding to the position of his partner. Back and forth you go. It has nothing to do with rifts. It has everything to do with improper debate tactics with a few fuck offs thrown in for good measure.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ
15 June 2012 at 9:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millssg99, please, please stop.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
15 June 2012 at 9:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh, is the mills99′s picture under classic concern troll…textbook case, and not something to be proud of…
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“Oh dear. Can’t even think of options besides “one’s own home” and “outside”. That’s pretty sad, millssg99.”
Not at all. I can think of a lot of them. Since you were spitting statistics I’m just curious.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 9:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I do feel a bit sorry for amaclean, though. If she’s not lying about who she is, she’s a teenager, and has not yet had the time, experience (luckily) or education to understand how her culture has lied to her. That stuff about precautions that we’ve all heard maybe ten billion times already is still fairly new to her.
Hint: one part of the irritation with the “take precautions” advice is the way it’s delivered as if we are all like six years old and have never heard or thought about any of this before. Gee, thanks for the advice! Do you also have any useful tips on how to tie our shoes?
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
15 June 2012 at 9:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fixed it for you loser…
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 9:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Sheesh, sometimes it’s like nobody BUT me reads my links.
I’m not going to fetch the complete list for you, click it yourself.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
When was your investiture as Pope of Debate, and does William Lane Craig know?
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Stop it. Thsi isn’t a game
Audley Z Darkheart (liar and scoundrel)
15 June 2012 at 9:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ooooh, improper debate tactics!
Where’s the fainting couch?
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 9:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*correction: Click it yourself. Ass.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’d rather you didn’t
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
We all know people on the internet can be assholes. Really, until that magical day when everyone learns to get along, the best thing to do is be cautious. If you’re unsure of the situation, find it heated, then leave. Better to cross the street than stand your ground and be sorry.
mythbri
15 June 2012 at 9:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@Ogvorbis
I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. My father went through something very similar, and so did his next-youngest brother. Different men. Both Mormons. Both “Men of the Community”, and as two boys being raised by a single mother (pretty taboo in the Church at any time, but particularly then), they weren’t “good boys”. No one would have believed them. My dad finally told me about it just recently, when we were talking about this very subject.
Absolutely NONE of these so-called “rape prevention tips” will work if you’re with someone that you’re supposed to trust. THIS kind of rape is much more common than you want to believe.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 9:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Improper debate tactics? Are you twelve? This is not a fucking game, you fucking ignorant monster. Do you realize what you’re doing? You’re being told repeatedly, by people who have actually been affected by the crime, that what you are doing does harm. And you’re here, what, wanking about fucking “debate tactics”?
Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 9:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You view this as a competitive debate. You are interested in scoring points. Wonderful.
So. What should I have done when I was in 4th grade to avoid getting raped? You are so sure these tips work, and that no one has heard of them, so what should I have done?
andrewriding
15 June 2012 at 9:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
While there is a bit of group think and some dog piling around here I can say it has been earned by the two big (underdog :P) names I saw.
999? said something really ignorant of the subject matter (I know there probably wasn’t any oppressive intention behind it, at least not consciously,) and then greatly exacerbated the negative response by insisting that nobody could possibly be justified in taking offense to what he said and essentially rejecting a majority of attempts to teach him anything since like, you know, he has a wife and hears about how she has to put up with cat calling.
People saying mean things about you? Big fucking deal. Maybe it hurts but it won’t stick if you don’t act like it upsets you (this is the internet after all- imagine seeing some sharks, chumming the water, then hopping into it. Or you know, maybe don’t insult our intelligence in the first place and avoid the whole mess.)
An easy way to gauge how much you deserve what you’re getting is the question “do you have anything besides insults?” If there’s really nothing else in any of the posts in, let’s say the first ten posts directed at you, then it is possibly just a big misunderstanding. On the other hand, if you can picture asking that question and then getting a bunch of posts where people just about shove the actual points they’ve made straight down your stupid throat, then you definitely shouldn’t insist that you’ve done nothing wrong.
Humility goes a long way. If you can see them talking about a bunch of words you maybe don’t know the exact definition of and it FEELS like they’re putting words in your mouth then shrink back a little bit instead of acting like you’re going to take on all comers and actually say that you suspect you don’t quite comprehend what you’re being told. Maybe say that x wasn’t your intention and ask how you could word it without setting off all the fireworks.
I think doing that would have fast forwarded really quickly to “stopping rape is a great idea but we can’t do it overnight so in the mean time take all the precautions you can” along with some discussion about how it’s still a little bit dumb to tell women to be careful about this but a whole lot less of the part you especially recoil from: other people telling you what you think and why you think it.
Little tip- if you can’t tell why several people are immediately mad at you about ideas you have expressed on a controversial topic then you probably don’t know very much about it (nothing to be ashamed of but for fuck’s sake, act like a student for at least a little while before you try on the teacher role,) and there is an extremely high chance you’ve just said that thing everyone that spends a lot of time in these topics has heard a thousand times and is sick to death of.
Again, with some humility you can probably get a minimally insulting lesson on it out of the people around here and in other hostile forum type spaces.
If your delicate ears can’t handle harsh language stay out of places like this, or more likely if you’d like to just reduce it then stop smacking the wasp nest and genuinely ask people to fill you in on some of the details you might be missing.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
As I said
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh shut the fuck up. Even joking I’m sick of this. Being a decent person isn’t fucking group think. This is the worst and most pathetic silencing tactic. If everyone thinks you’r wrong it’s because they’re mindless drones.
It’s creationism.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 9:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
There’s another more terrible option. Denial and still believing the lies told to her about rape and what happened. That used to be me. That’s so fucking depressing. =(
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
15 June 2012 at 9:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Let’s grant that this is true.
Is reducing the incidence of rape among joggers the goal?
You know, fuck the walkers and the bikers and the people playing volleyball for their exercise.
Because that’s what you’re advocating.
You insist so vehemently that it’s unwise to wear a short skirt while drunk in an alley behind a bar at 3 am.
And you refuse to recognize that rapists hear these messages and think to themselves, well, if I get her while she’s drunk behind the bar late at night, dressed in a skimpy outfit, I’ll be sure to get away with it. Even if she overcomes all the pressure from people like you, dear commenters, to blame herself for not taking these “common-sense” preventative tips and manages to report it to the police, odds are the police, and the judge and jury as well, if it ever gets that far, will be so hung up on the length of her skirt and the heavy makeup and the drinking that they’ll never convict me.
This happens. Over and over again.
I was sexually assaulted while traveling as a teenager in Italy, and for a number of years afterward I thought of it as me being stupid and bad and cheating on my boyfriend, despite the fact that the cheating commenced while I was unconscious.
Regardless of your motives, however pure they are, this is the end result of your insistence.
Someone who is not an inhuman monster would drop that insistence immediately upon being informed that this was the effect of their conviction.
You’re not dropping it. Why? Do you think we’re all lying about the concrete effects of the actions you have taken and advocate taking?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 9:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Og, erik, Jafafa, since I didn’t cool down enough to say it yet this thread, I’m so sorry for what you’ve all gone through, and I’m sorry that people are treating this like it’s a game. And I am glad to know you, at least the little I do.
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
15 June 2012 at 9:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If it were my blog, there’d be instant banhammer for anyone who mentioned groupthink in an unironic manner.
It would save a lot of time.
No One
15 June 2012 at 9:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
OK… you are here to stick it to the “hippies”. Still stuck in “carrot and stick” mode eh?
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh, Sally. You know all the trolls’ buttons to push.
I’m expecting to hear not only Teh Groopthink, but “echo-chamber”, “hooting baboons”, and maybe even the First Amendment soon!
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 9:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Whenever someone brings up they term “group think” in a discussion like this, I can dismiss their argument right out of hand. Oh you may think you’re so recalcitrant, being all contrary, and being the “underdog”, but in reality the shit you’re pulling has been said a hundred times by other like-mind assholes.
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yup. And you wouldn’t lose a single useful commenter by doing so.
Caerie
15 June 2012 at 9:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Coming out of lurk to say: Thank you.
Thank you to everyone who’s told their stories and everyone who’s posted links and everyone who’s rebutted all of those same old tired arguments.
I’m an abuse and rape survivor and I’ve never been able to articulate what is so wrong with people saying that the way to “prevent rape” is to not dress slutty, not go out alone, not drink, etc, etc. It would either make me incoherent with rage or just send me into silent misery.
Even though I knew it was wrong, I couldn’t find the words to explain exactly how and why. You’ve given me the words I’ve desperately needed.
Thank you.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If you think you are “upsetting” me with your ridiculous attacks you couldn’t be more wrong. Unfortunately I’m not that brittle. I wish I was and you could have chased me of by being “mean”. OMG.
This is a thought police comment thread. Nobody who dares disagree is allowed to comment. Only approved ideas allowed. The self-appointed guardians of what is allowed should be proud of themselves.
“please stop”
Of course. Do not disagree. It hurts our feelings. You are wrong and we are right. We have the Truth with a capital “T”.
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thank god! I was worried you’d been posting for the last few hours. Fortunately, I find out I’ve never read anything you’ve written, since it’s not allowed.
Carry on, thought police!
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 9:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Again, with the pain, from the stupid.
Pteryxx
15 June 2012 at 9:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millss: as you see, we’re not doing any of this for YOU.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You’re right, how could we ever hope to best a big tough He-Man like you? Keep flexing in that mirror! Now kiss it!
How is your explicit ability to keep commenting a sign that nobody is allowed to comment if they disagree? Uh oh, cognitive dissonance alert! Deploy Strawman!
Strawman Deployed! Good job, everyone.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Trolls are only there if you believe it to be so. It’s the Peter Pan Principle.
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“I’m tougher than all you victims of rape. It’s academic to me.”
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Can you imagine how long this thread would be if people who disagreed were allowed to comment? I bet it’d be at least 602 comments long.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
”
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
15 June 2012 at 9:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yo yo, Mills, you so dope man! Like, FUCK THA (THOUGHT) POLICE, all HARDCORE like NWA! Commenting anyway, even though you’re not alLLOWed to by tha fuckin THOUGHT COPS, man, you so gangsta! That some ninja shit man, the way you fuckin wrote shit even though you not alLOWed to.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I don’t think I could cope with that. I prefer my threads to be totally devoid of critical thought and disagreement. I just want people to tell me how wonderful and smart and beautiful I am. Then they can throw flowers over me. Is that too much to ask, Internet?!
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 9:36 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amaclean is not socknumber99. She’s rather less whiny and preachy, and more personally confused, than the other denialists in the thread. She seems to believe that she and her friends can be safe by taking precautions and looking out for each other. She’s sadly wrong, but she’s also a teenager and naive. At least I really hope she’s just naive, and not in denial – as Just_A_Lurker notes is a possibility.
So call me patronising and ageist if you will, but I truly do have more sympathy for a teenager who’s just starting to come to grips with this issue, than for the tedious misogynist trolls. It’s a pretty horrifying reality to have to face up to.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
DING #2: Pity Riposte
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 9:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
It’s all about you, isn’t it?
BS. If anything, the thought police is you, since you’re repeating and shoving age old bullshit and trying to guise it as new and “against the grain”. Yeah you’re really sticking it to our “group think” aren’t ya?
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
15 June 2012 at 9:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I was certainly unaware of the prevalence of rape, or the many forms it could take, when I was a teenager.
Ama, look up the “just world fallacy.” It’s comforting to think we can control what happens to us. We can’t. But we act as if we can, every day, because to act otherwise would drive us a little crazy. Still, when confronted with someone who has had it painfully proven that you really can’t control everything in your life, it is foolish and insulting to ignore the evidence in front of your eyes.
John Morales
15 June 2012 at 9:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
[meta]
millssg99:
You write that as if you hadn’t made many comments, so far.
(In what sense are you not ““, again?)
–
Seriously, now you are just blatantly concern trolling.
(Bah)
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 9:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Caerie, I’m sorry for what you’ve suffered. You’re not alone around here, and this community doesn’t let that victim-blaming shit fly. S’why I like it. *hugs if you want them*
No One
15 June 2012 at 9:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millssg99 says:
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:45 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The fact that people cannot discern the difference between “allowed” in the sense of not being physically prevented and “allowed” in the sense that your comments aren’t welcome and you should stop them simply proves the point.
Or maybe they do know the difference. However, the fact that that led to a whole slew of responses shows the utter triviality of what this has deteriorated into. Anything to avoid addressing any real issue. Play semantic word games. Slay me with your arguments.
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 9:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Here’s the thing I don’t get about people like millssg99. Why don’t do direct your attention at the rapists? Instead of saying women should use more caution, why not say men should be less violent? What is your interest in protecting the rapist?
pixellated
15 June 2012 at 9:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
24 hours ago, at about half past three in the morning, I was wandering the streets of my city as a young woman, alone, wearing relatively skimpy clothing (above-the-knee dress, tights).
I know, right? What kind of idiot am I? Why on earth would I do that? Don’t I know how dangerous it is? Don’t I know to keep my meat covered, my valuables hidden, my virtue untarnished, etc, etc?
Bear with me five minutes.
I was going out with some friends. I was wearing a pretty standard outfit for someone going clubbing on a warm June evening. Met up with a very large mixed-gender group of friends, went to a bar until about midnight, then onto the club and stayed until closing. During the course of the night quite a lot of people left at various points for various reasons – I stayed with the main group as I didn’t want to go to the taxi rank on my own.
Six of us left the club at closing time, and decided to go to get a kebab. Three people wanted one from a nearby shop, and three others from the van literally twenty seconds’ walk away – we split up, and I went into the kebab shop, got some chips, then decided to see how the people at the trailer were getting on. Walked the twenty seconds to the trailer, they’d already gone, so I walked back – and somewhere in those forty seconds my friends in the kebab shop had also left. I had a look around for them, but couldn’t see anyone. Luckily, not too long after I got a call from one of them saying they were at a house a few streets away and I met up with them again fairly quickly. Still, for about fifteen minutes, I, a nice, sensible, well-raised girl, was one of the dreaded Women Dressed Skimpily Walking Alone At Night, the situation which launched a thousand well-meaning but ultimately deeply sexist analogies.
Two points:
Firstly, you can draw parallels with sluts and stereos and steaks all you like – even if you tattooed it on every woman’s head at birth that Good Girls Don’t Do That, and you would STILL end up with women in the situation I did. I certainly didn’t leave my flat that evening expecting to be there myself. However, every discussion based around what we can do to prevent this situation ending up with anyone getting hurt that talks about the dont-rape-y side of things ALWAYS gets derailed by people shouting ‘But it’s the fault of those stupid WOMEN for getting themselves into trouble!’. I would love these paragons of virtue to teach me how to never make a single mistake in my life, however tiny or seemingly inconsequential at the time, as they have clearly learned.
Secondly, these same individuals seem to think that women go through their lives in a blissful, ignorant bubble, with absolutely no situational awareness or understanding of the world. I was terrified. I knew exactly what the possible consequences of the situation could be. I knew exactly what people would think of me if anything had happened. I knew exactly what email would be sent around my college the next morning, telling us all to please please be more careful at night, to stay with someone at all times and to keep ourselves safe.
I knew all these things, but knowing them didn’t make my skirt any longer or the night any lighter. So could we please have at least one conversation about rape which doesn’t involve ‘well, those ladies could solve all those problems but just knowing FACTS about DANGEROUS SITUATIONS, amirite?’
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 9:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yep. It’s this whole denial thing. Always important to maintain that wall of difference between you and the victims, so you can remain perfectly certain that you’ll never be one of them. And even if you were, you’d always react with perfect rationality and self-empowerment, Not Like Those Other Girls™.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 9:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I really truly help so too. I hope for youth and naivete so that it can be grown out of and become an ally. I do not, however, take back my harshness. Harshness helped me learn, it’s help others here and several nice places were linked to in the thread.
I hope for the best but expect the worst. No holds bar.
Different people use different tactics, I do not hold that against you. You aren’t tone trolling me and I’m not calling you to be more vile. If she does truly get it soon with all the education we give, she won’t hold it against me or anyone else.
I’ve thought I don’t even know how many times, “Man, I wish I’d listen to them. No wonder they were so harsh. I deserved it for that shit.”
(Of course, all IMO)
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 9:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Shiny fucking mirrors.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 9:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
DING extreme tunnel vision.
@Gyeong Hwa
Because they want to get lulz by upsetting and hurting someone. And rape victims have a nice easy target.
They are not rapists, they are the scavengers that want to eat their scraps
Caerie
15 June 2012 at 9:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Cipher@111 Thank you. I’ve lurked here for a while and that’s exactly what I like about the commenters here. It’s like having a weight lifted off my chest just to see so much reason in one place.
No One
15 June 2012 at 9:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The real issue is “Why are you here”?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 9:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The fact that you say “not allowed” when you mean “unwelcome” shows what a shining and excellent communicator you are.
'Tis Himself
15 June 2012 at 9:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millssg99 #95
You’re missing an important point, fuckwit. You can say whatever your little heart desires. And the rest of us can do exactly the same thing. You can spout all the victim-blaming shit you want and nobody (except PZ, but you’ve got to work at pissing him off) can stop you. Likewise, after your done your dumbass rants, we can refute your bullshit (subject to the same PZ imposed restrictions).
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 9:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What have you done to address any serious issue other than berate people for not taking precautions that they already take and then ignoring them when they tell you they don’t work? What contribution have you made to this conversation other than being a privileged, arrogant wankstain?
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 9:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well, I guess your job here is done, then.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 9:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Haven’t you learned anything yet? Men can’t control themselves. They are hormonal beasts who lusts can’t be tamed or stopped by anyway except for using their huge cocks for hours inside a vagina.
It’s all the dirty women’s fault for not knowing their place is always beneath the cock and denying nature.
/Sarcasm, Snark & Bitterness
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 9:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@Ing,
I was being all rhetorical you know. ;) It brings me back to the point I was trying make earlier when cupcake accused people of group think. What he is saying isn’t suddenly profound. It’s old. It’s tired. It was ingrained into you by our rape culture. It’s like how great great grand uncle Cracker von Patriarch tried to fight sexism and racism by giving them hugs. Yes, Millssg99 I am accusing you of being allies to rapists. By diverting attention away from rapist and rape culture and putting blame on the victims, you have made yourself an ally to rapists. So excuse you if people are rude to you or if people are attacking you, because there is no reason for them to coddle to rape culture.
*Side eyeing the fuck out you.*
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 9:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Gyeong Hwa
Here’s the thing. Nobody on this thread have identified themselves as a rapist for me to direct my attention to. However they have identified themselves as believing that anyone who suggests reasonable precautions is blaming the victim and supporting rape culture. Whether the people here think reasonable people can disagree on that, I happen to believe they can. That is the part of the comments I disagreed with so that is why I am directing my attention to that here.
Here is what I don’t get. Why do people think they can make comments that other people can’t disagree with, and thus must direct their attention elsewhere?
chigau (違う)
15 June 2012 at 10:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millssg99
You have be disagreeing all night.
Others have been disagreeing.
What do you think this conversation should look like?
.
.
by the way
.
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Dumbfuck you’ve been disagreeing this whole fucking time. You are fucking wrong. No one is going to let that shit slide. You want niceness or other dumbfucks to agree with you, you will only find that shit elsewhere.
Pharyngula is not the place for you. Society is not the place for you. Earth is not the place for you.
Go rectify that.
'Tis Himself
15 June 2012 at 10:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You really are a piece of work, asswipe. If you can’t find rapists here, then why don’t you cruise down to your local bar and watch the PUAs ply their trade? You’ll find a fair number of rapists and wannabe rapists there. If you want to converse with rapists, then hie down to the rape place.
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 10:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You mean, why don’t the victims of rape, who’ve been socialised and traumatised to scrutinise every aspect of their behaviour leading up to their assault, treat the conversation like an abstract exercise in debate the way you do?
Is that the question you’re asking?
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 10:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“Well, since I can’t find any rapists, the best thing to do is to suggest to actual rape victims a few handy ideas off the top of my head for avoiding rape, whether they’re relevant or not.
Because really, I’m just bored on a Friday evening/Saturday morning and am looking for an argument to kill some time with.”
eriktrips
15 June 2012 at 10:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Unlurking again. Because this here is what it’s about, this. What happened to me happened a long time ago, and I would never have imagined myself telling a group of near-strangers all about it when I was, er, a not-entirely-old not-entirely-man. I can only do it because others before me told theirs, and I saw other people being receptive, kind, and justifiably angry.
So I wanted to highlight this and say if anything I said was helpful, I am glad you spoke up about it, Caerie.
stanton
15 June 2012 at 10:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So, mills, can you tell us what Ogvorbis, erik, and Jafafa failed to do to prevent their respective rapes?
Or are you going to continue bitching how mean and terrible and Borg-like we are for not bending over to kiss your ass for making your important, yet insultingly patronizing precautions for rape prevention?
feralboy12
15 June 2012 at 10:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Look, here’s the issue:
It’s nearly impossible to discuss the underlying societal problems that cause rape to be so common and so often trivialized without some yahoo jumping in (seventh comment this time) suggesting that women can do various things to make themselves safer.
We’re trying to talk about the underlying causes–either you’re off-topic or you actually think rape is caused by lack of precautions. Which would you prefer?
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Also, assclam that would make the world a better place by dying soon:
You say that like it’s a bad thing. This is a safe place for me and many others due to no fucking tolerance of such bullshit.
You clearly didn’t fucking read any links. If you had, you’d known rapist don’t say “Hey I’m a rapist” and that a lot of them don’t even think that what they did was rape.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 10:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PZ this asshole has basically admitted to trolling. And frankly it’s a given at this point. Flush the turd, he’s begging to be banned anyway.
What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding
15 June 2012 at 10:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
That loud slapping noise you just heard was the sound of several billion women worldwide facepalming with the sudden realization that “Hey, all I’ve got to do is take precautions and I won’t get raped!” And several million men saying to themselves, “Fuck, the game is over.”
[sorry, I got through about half the thread and then refreshed, and still the trolls are trolling. Fuck but some people are deliberately stupid.]
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 10:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
BTW, in case it’s not completely clear “I feel sympathy for Amaclean” is NOT remotely the same as “Stop arguing with her!” or even “Don’t be so harsh.” She has two chances to grow out of her naivete: listening to other people, and real life experience.
I’m personally not comfortable with being harsh to people who I think have a chance. I can barely bring myself to be rude to trolls, and usually I do so only in an indirect sarcastic manner rather than directly to them. But that’s me, and I wouldn’t be hanging about here if I didn’t appreciate and cheer for the direct take-no-shit fighters.
No One
15 June 2012 at 10:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Because women (and men) who have been raped have a different perspective. I understand that it’s difficult to see from your un-experienced position. But insisting you are right when people with the experience tell you are wrong makes you look like a sadist. The first step in really making this better is not putting a band aid on it. It is “you” realizing that you can dismantle the the meme.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
15 June 2012 at 10:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Those people driving at 3:00 am should have known drunk drivers are out then and stayed home.
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 10:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Dipshit I was talking about rapists and rape culture in general.
No one said you can’t disagree. But here is the thing, why is it when people say stupid shit and they get called out for their shit, the accuse the other side of “not allowing them to disagree”? Your basic ass is allowed to be a rapist apologist all you want, just don’t complain when people rightfully give you shit for it.
Brownian
15 June 2012 at 10:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Why is it that everyone gets so mad when you reasonably suggest this to the victims of drunk drivers? Sheesh. Thought police.
stanton
15 June 2012 at 10:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
mills, why are you that brain-damaged stupid to think that someone would out themselves as having committed a felony solely for the purpose of having you lecture them with your insultingly inane talking points?
Oh, wait, you’re being a snotty, sarcastic asshole. My mistake.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Rev. BigDumbChimp
15 June 2012 at 10:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Assholes
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Some more “triviality” for you
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Alethea
(Just in case if this was brought on by my comment.)
You were perfectly clear to me. I get that you weren’t saying going easy or shaking your finger at those of us who were. I was just clarifying my position since my first comment about it wasn’t very straight forward. I didn’t want anyone to think I waffled and took back my harshness.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 10:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“By diverting attention away from rapist and rape culture and putting blame on the victims”
I have never once put the blame on victims. I’ve said the perpetrators are 100% to blame. You are attributing a false position to me.
Blame used here in the sense of moral blame. People are conflating two different things. 1) the actions one might reasonably take to reduce the likelihood of something happening to them. 2) The blame or responsibility for the crime.
I have never once said and would never say someone deserves to be raped because they took some action. However to say that given the reality of the world and there are people who commit crimes, there is nothing one could do to reduce the likelihood they would be a victim is in my opinion a ludicrously false position.
To point this out is not blaming victims. You can both blame the perpetrator and promote safe behavior. In the end everyone makes their own choice. It just so happens I’m generally a skeptic of the modern trend towards promoting almost infinite safety. I think much of that is nonsense. One has to live and cannot be holed up behind bolted doors all the time. However I think the that that people can and should take reasonable precautions. Whatever they do is up to ultimately up to them.
If you define blame as whatever series of cause and effect from the beginning of time that all together ultimately led to the criminal act, then of course by that definition I’m blaming the victim and all of past history of the universe along with it.
Some people have pointed out here that no matter what happened before or what the victim did, that before he commits the act the rapist makes a choice. I agree. In that sense he is completely to blame. He could have chosen not to do it. He deserves the punishment and the victim deserves the sympathy.
The issues can be separated.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 10:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amaclean also seems to have flounced, which is not good for her chances.
And whatsitmills99, did you not notice what happens if you accidentally let dudes know that you’re “taking precautions” around them?
No One
15 June 2012 at 10:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
millssg99
I ask again “Why are you here?”. The answer might be important.
Jafafa Hots
15 June 2012 at 10:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Preaching vigilance to the hypervigilant.
What fun.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Unless I’ve miscounted, I think there are twelve people posting in this thread alone who have, in this thread, identified as sexual assault or rape survivors. Anyone want to verify?
And for mills, it’s about “debate tactics” and “triviality.”
jenny6833a
15 June 2012 at 10:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m not millssg99, although we’ve been saying pretty much the same thing. I don’t think mills has said what you claim, and I know I haven’t.
If the purpose of this thread is to deplore rape and rapists, I herebye deplore-deplore-deplore. If the purpose is to change Christian America’s perception of the rapists and the raped, I agree-agree-agree. However, I’ve seen no proposals on how to accomplish that in the near future or even in the distant future. That figures.
If tbis thread is about ‘in a perfect world, women shouldn’t have to take precautions,’ I also agree-agree-agree.
In the meantime, the world isn’t perfect. In the real world, the the relatively small burden of taking precautions is far preferable to the possibility of very large consequences from not doing so.
Will precautions prevent ALL rapes. Of course not — just as defensive driving won’t prevent ALL crashes. But in both cases, precautions move the odds.
And, so no one misunderstands, I hate-hate-hate rapists.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’ve told you some ideas that I have for how people can reduce the likelihood they’ll be a victim. Mine are more evidence-based than yours. Why don’t you address them?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Right now? Dealing with your stupidity is the purpose of this thread. You are rape culture. Right now, in this thread. You. You are lecturing, if I counted correctly, at least twelve survivors of sexual assault or rape, on how they ought to take Reasonable Precautions. In the face of being told, by them and their allies, that what you are doing is harmful and compounds the effects of trauma, as well as lending camouflage to rapists by feeding into bullshit narratives of how rape happens.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform
15 June 2012 at 10:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
First of all, to everybody here who has talked openly about having been raped, and especially to Jafafa Hots: I am horribly sorry.
Jenny:
It was already pointed out to you, you useless piece-of-shit tone troll, that you were arguing against your own position; thank you for confirming that you’re vapid as well as stupid.
♫ One of these things… ♬
♫ … is not like the other… ♬
Oh, and by the way, there are more than two genders.
trollofreason:
O_o
Cipher:
Yes, but mainly because then teh menz couldn’t get laid and it would be awful that women were so untrusting of them.
hyperdeath:
♥♥♥
Ing:
So much this.
Nerd:
Nope.
Audley:
On Rob Tarzwell’s FB page discussing the “upskirt” situation, a woman named Darlene Pineda writes,
Mills:
I was going to say something witty about this but I don’t think there’s anything to add after Cipher’s responses.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform
15 June 2012 at 10:29 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh, crap. Cipher, I apologize for the Comic Sans. It’s late and I should go to bed.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
15 June 2012 at 10:29 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You. Don’t. Get. It.
horace
15 June 2012 at 10:29 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If you think that making suggestions on how women might avoid rape is stupid how much more stupid is it to suggest to rapists that they might not rape ?
Do you really imagine rapists reading this thread and slapping themselves on the forehead as they realize that rape is wrong ?
Suggestions on how to avoid rape are at least potentially useful.
Check my post at 32.
And if you find the topic so emotional that you cannot disagree with millssg99 without accusing him of encouraging rape than perhaps you should find something else to talk about.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well, Amaclean, if you are lurking (and I hope you are), there won’t be any hard feelings if your position changes. That has happened often enough and many regulars have battle scars to remember their stupidity about something. It’s rough and tumble here but tons of links and help if you do need it. I hope you understand why I and others held nothing back on you. You’ve seen the love, hugs and support we give to people suffering and we don’t take kindly to those who harm them. Such as rape apologists, whether it was intended to harm or not. Intent is not magic.
Agent Silversmith, Feathered Patella Association
15 June 2012 at 10:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Mills, the “just take precautions” argument has been so shot to motes that pig-shitted obstinacy is your only excuse for continuing to support it. No one’s accusing you of standing by with a megaphone yelling “GO TEAM RAPISTS”, but the rapists have every reason to thank you for making it easier for them to get away with their crimes. For example, women who are overconfident in the efficacy of their “precautions” are an easier target, and a rapist on trial has a fighting chance of acquittal if enough jury members have bought into the “she should’ve done more to prevent it” meme.
Given that almost all rapists are bigger and stronger than their victims, and have probably planned the attack to prevent detection or escape, evading a rape attempt is a matter of dumb luck. Some people in this thread didn’t have that stroke of luck. Implying that it’s all very sad, but couldn’t they have done this or that, is a pure insult.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Has Horace ever brought anything to a thread that wasn’t pompous tone trolling or condescension?
—
Daisy, no problem, I pouted for a few seconds and then figured out it was unintentional :)
No One
15 June 2012 at 10:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Still stuck on the carrot and the stick.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
15 June 2012 at 10:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Horace
You don’t get it either
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 10:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes horace don’t look at all at what Millss is doing. You fucking idiot
amblebury
15 June 2012 at 10:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jafafa Hots, Eriktrips, everyone else who’s spoken openly about being raped. I’m so sorry, I wish I or anyone else could do or say anything that would help.
-
And Jenny and Mills and amaclean and the other horrors?
That is fucking IT. We’re done. Get the hell out. Of humanity.
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
15 June 2012 at 10:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If you find yourself having to make announcements like this, odds are you’re doing something wrong.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 10:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*raises hand* I am. At this point I so fucking am
stanton
15 June 2012 at 10:36 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So, informing other people about the situation of “rape culture,” or trying to educate people to not place blame or shame on rape victims is totally useless?
No. Then why can’t you or the other rape apologists explain to Ogvorbis and the other rape victims currently on this thread where and what they did wrong when they were raped?
How do these anti-rape suggestions help prevent rapists from raping people? Better yet, have these anti-rape suggestions ever prevented any rapes from occurring?
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ
15 June 2012 at 10:36 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny6833a, please stop.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 10:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I don’t believe you
Caerie
15 June 2012 at 10:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes, clearly the only people who should discuss sexual assault are those who are completely and utterly emotionally removed from the topic. Much like those discussing female health and contraception should lack uteruses.
feralboy12
15 June 2012 at 10:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yeah, you’d think so, but again it took seven comments to go from misogyny and cultural attitudes underlying the problem to “you should keep your ‘valuables’ locked up.” And shit like that happens every time an issue regarding women gets discussed.
Yeah, take precautions. But that wasn’t the topic here. Again, it’s either off-topic, and a derailment of what might have been a serious discussion, or, if offered as a solution, victim blaming. Neither is appreciated by the victims.
I’m thinking of a different Clint Eastwood movie than the one mentioned earlier here: Unforgiven, in which Clint is informed that he just shot an unarmed man.
“Well, he should’ve armed himself.”
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 10:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So if your treatment of victims is the same regardless of whether they took “reasonable precautions” or not, then what the fuck are you arguing for here? We’ve already told you most women take your “reasonable precautions” and they don’t prevent rape; at best, they prevent rape in certain situations, and only through extreme action. For instance, never walking through an alley at 3 AM, as I believer Cipher has said more than once, will guarantee that one will never be raped in an alley at 3 AM. It’s fucking tautological, and it’s not even advice.
Your amazing tipz only apply to stranger rape; people have already pointed out to you that stranger rape is incredibly fucking rare compared to acquaintance/familial/spousal rape. How would never walking through a dark alley at 3 AM prevent one from being raped if the rapist is one’s spouse? It doesn’t.
And again, I have to point out that “you have to take responsibility for your behavior so you aren’t raped” and “the perpetrator gets 100% of the blame” are mutually fucking exclusive.
Your strawmen would be more fun to knock down if you didn’t send them out already on fire.
“Step right up, folks, and watch the a-maaaaaaazing millssg99 waffle on about totally fucking absurd interpretations of what we’re saying!”
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Silencing Victims by Shoving StrawMen Inside Every Hole 101.
Ahhhhhhhh, nothing like a classic.It just smells so ripe and will make you puke every time guaranteed. I still remember my first time encountering this class, I still have nightmares from it.
jenny6833a
15 June 2012 at 10:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You’re making stuff up. I’ve not said anything of the kind. It’s never the victim’s fault.
I do think it’s wise to take precautions against all varieties of potential harm in a world where bad people undeniably exist.
I think you have the burden of quoting me, and of resisting the urge to do so inaccurately.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Of course it’s not your fault! But it would never have happened to you if you’d just been more careful!
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 10:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You know, the “women should take more precautions” argument is just privileged bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much precaution they take, people like women of color and transwomen are often assaulted and raped just for existing. If they dare to survive their trauma, there is a likely chance they are punished for surviving. If they don’t, people blame them with the “take more precautions” bullshit that you rape apologists love sprouting. It’s a fucking privilege and fuck up thing to tell women, especially WOC and transwomen, that they should use more precaution because even with that precaution our violent rape culture will still find a way to abuse them.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ
15 June 2012 at 10:43 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny6833a, please, please stop.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ing:
I am too.
horace
15 June 2012 at 10:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@171 Stanton,
Why don’t you check the link that I included @32 ? The author says that most rapists know their victims and advises on how to choose your social circle better to avoid this.
AtheistPowerlifter
15 June 2012 at 10:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@ pixellated # 115
I am a 42 year old white male. I work in a health profession and compete as a powerlifter, which means that I am large for my height (270 lbs at average height). Which basically means I rarely worry about having to walk down the street by myself at night. I’m married, and with the positive influence of my wife I have always considered myself a feminist. She is smarter than I could ever hope to be and makes me a better man. In the sports field in which I work, misogyny is rampant and I have always tried to go out of my way to teach my athletes broader points of view. I really don’t know what I am talking about though, which has been made clear to me after reading many of the comments here.
I have been humbled by this thread, and especially so by your post. I haven’t truly understood what male privilege was until I read your comment at # 115. I usually lurk here, and at times have been astonished by the anger and frustration by some of the commenters. I wondered ‘where is this coming from?’…I just didn’t get it.
Now I do.
It’s never too late to learn something new…it’s never too late to improve yourself, and to be inspired.
So to all the posters here, who have been trying to educate others about the rampant sexism – thank you. Some are listening, and learning.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 10:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
People usually don’t know that someone is going to rape them until they fucking do it. “Picking one’s social circle better” also implies that rapists are a “type” and it’s your fault for associating with one.
I had no idea one of my friends was going to rape my best friend until he did it, so is that my fault for not helping my friend “pick a better social circle”? Or is it my fault because they were both my friends and met at a party I held? I’m sorry I don’t have the GIGANTIC SPACE BRAIN necessary to tell who’s a rapist and who isn’t since rapists can be anyone.
Now do me a favor, cupcake, and throw yourself into a woodchipper.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ
15 June 2012 at 10:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
horace, please stop.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 10:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
People, seriously, trigger warning for those links at 32. The victim-blaming is overt, significantly more so than the dumbassery in this thread. For posting them, I’m returning horace to my killfile, and then I may need to go vomit.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:53 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
BULLSHIT. That’s not made up or a lie. Moron, we know what you said, this isn’t meatspace, everything is recorded. You lying, denying, worthless sack of fucking shit. The only thing I could you would be useful for is fertilizing the ground.
You do realize the words have meaning and repercussions right? There’s connotations and it leads the reader to think certain things after reading it. Like you say to a rape victim, “you should have had a big dog to protect you” it doesn’t fucking matter if you tell them it’s not their fault before or after that statement. They are going to hear that wonder “WTF What could I have done? Oh, I should have had a dog. I shouldn’t have let this happen. I should have been more cautious”.
Then you find said victim in deep depression hiding in their rooms never coming out and trying to kill themselves. Because you, every other fucking person and society in general is telling them “if you had done this, you could have prevented your rape”.
Don’t you dare call this story bullshit. I’ve fucking been there. I was told “it’s not your fault but you should be more careful and do this…”
I still fucking am since asshole like you keep spouting this bullshit in every fucking thread!
FUCK YOU.
You help make the world a terrible, terrible place.
millssg99
15 June 2012 at 10:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Running away for the evening with tail between my legs whimpering. I just couldn’t take being voted onto “Team Rapists”. That was the take down argument from the brilliant rape victims advocates. No answer to that one. You should be proud.
DLC
15 June 2012 at 10:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The point here is that the victim of a crime should never be blamed for being a victim. It doesn’t matter if it’s a hot 20something walking down the street barely wearing enough clothes to cover their naughty bits, or a heavily armed and armored police officer. Anyone can be taken. Rape in particular has to be singled out, because there are just too many cases where blithering idiots allow excuses
It’s that attitude that needs to change.
As for this undercurrent I keep seeing here about “Hivemind” or “groupthink” — when the group is right there’s nothing wrong with groupthink.
jenny6833a
15 June 2012 at 10:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
No single precaution or combination thereof can prevent all bad people from doing bad tnings. However, reasonable precautions, ones that aren’t much of a bother, will change the odds of bad things happening to you.
It’s up to each individual to decide what (if any) precautions are ‘reasonable.’
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 10:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Pity Respote
Please never come back
John Morales
15 June 2012 at 10:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
[meta]
AtheistPowerlifter, you done a good thing, speaking up.
(Kudos)
Erista (aka Eris)
15 June 2012 at 10:57 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This is my absolute favorite list of Rape Prevention Tips. It gives me the happies every time I look at it. Unfortunately, my happies are somewhat diminished by the fact that when I shared it on an atheist forum, many men were terribly offended, giving me the sadz.
I stopped going to that forum when the Rebecca Watson elevatorgate thing blew up and they started calling her (and women who agreed with her) feminazis.
Sadz.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 10:57 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Which the people here have already decided, so your arguments here are pointless. You can fuck off now, thx.
Gyeong Hwa
15 June 2012 at 10:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*Gives millssg99 an official “GO TEAM RAPISTS” foam finger.
Because it suits you.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 10:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Clue-by-Four incoming:
Then they must figure that shit out for themselves and you proclaiming to any and all women not to walk out at night, regardless of their lives and circumstances, is not fucking helping by making those women feel bad since they can’t take that precaution, you preachy-self-righteous-know-it-all.
Go blow it out your ass.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
15 June 2012 at 11:00 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jenny
You don’t get it
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 11:01 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny is here to tell us all that we should take Reasonable Precautions by doing whatever we think is a good idea.
THANKS JENNY
FossilFishy (TMI? That's not TMI, *THIS* is TMI.)
15 June 2012 at 11:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thank you Ogvorbis, Erik, Jafa, mouthyb, Gen, Illuminata, Nepenthe, Cipher, ladyh42, anna, and Caerie* for sharing your stories. It makes a difference, it really does. It puts a human face (even on the internet) to an abstract discussion, and it makes it possible to draw a clear line between those who are capable of compassion and those who are not.
A minor benefit that, considering the pain that is inherent in the events that you all went through. Know this though, some of us have heard your pain and while we can do nothing to alleviate it, we can keep it with us and use it as a spur to keep trying to make our world a better place even in the face of such obstinate, willful idiocy as displayed by horace, mills, oneplus and all their ilk.
*I’m sorry if I missed anyone, but I can’t go through again because now I’m crying.
A. R
15 June 2012 at 11:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hating rapists is assumed to be the default position. You really don’t need to state it unless you are trying to cover some sort of rape apologia. In fact, just about the only people who say things like this are, in my experience, rape apologists.
Rey Fox
15 June 2012 at 11:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Holy shit.
Wow.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 11:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thanks Jenny, again we apparently needed someone to tell us to lift up the toilet lid rather than shitting on it.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 11:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
HAHAHAH
MY Reasonalbe Precaution is to go check my mail or take out my trash (morning or night) while wearing my PJ’s i.e. a tank top, no bra and boxers. That way I can tell everyone who stares and cat calls to fuck off and that I’m not interested. They every look at me next time I can call the cops for harassment! It’s sooo much easier knowing at least some people to avoid then being hyper vigilant all the time!
/Snark, Sarcasm and Bitterness.
stanton
15 June 2012 at 11:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
How effective was it effective in preventing rape? How come Ogvorbis, jafa and erik didn’t find it effective?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 11:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
With ladyh42 and anna, whose posts I missed in my attempted roundup, my count of rape survivors being ‘splained to now stands at 14. In this thread alone.
Erista (aka Eris)
15 June 2012 at 11:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
From that stupid website linked in @32:
Their advice on how to avoid “provoking” rape:
Fuck. That. Website.
kelvinpauli
15 June 2012 at 11:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Awesome link Erista (aka Eris)! Thanks for that.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 11:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Horace. Please just off yourself. Fucking useless.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 11:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@Erista
Holy. Fucking. Shit. I don’t even know what to say.
FossilFishy (TMI? That's not TMI, *THIS* is TMI.)
15 June 2012 at 11:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Also how come mouthyb, Gen, Illuminata, Nepenthe, Cipher, ladyh42, anna, Caerie and no doubt a bunch more lurkers who do not feel comfortable sharing their stories in public?
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ
15 June 2012 at 11:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny6833a, please stop.
feralboy12
15 June 2012 at 11:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Don’t forget the cattle prod.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
15 June 2012 at 11:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh I’m sorry horace, maybe it’s just the net making me tougher…after all according to your sight calling you such an asshead you now breath farts instead of oxygen probably means you’d rape me in person right? Horace why do you hate women enough to do this and why do you hate men enough to insult them in such a way?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
15 June 2012 at 11:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
For instance! SLEEPING IN YOUR BED! PAJAMAS are a common provocation to VIOLENCE! After sleeping in your bed gets you RAPED, you often feel like people shouldn’t rape you! But in fact, you could have avoided all that pain by just NOT GETTING YOURSELF RAPED!
I’m better. I decided not to vomit.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 11:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
………………
Because you can’t pick your family and people don’t recognize the signs of abuse until it’s too late. You don’t fucking get how predators work jackass. Try reading some of the links provided like Meet the Predators and They Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer.
Guess what? I’ve done those fucking things, DOESN’T FUCKING WORK. It’s just more shit to pile unto the victims. Don’t fight back he’ll make it worse! then the cops say it never happened and have no evidence since you didn’t fight back…
Fuck this shit. Just nuke it all from orbit.
AtheistPowerlifter
15 June 2012 at 11:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@ John Morales # 193
Thanks. Sometimes you can’t see the forest for the trees.
And as my Dad is fond of saying: “You ain’t learnin’ nothing when you’re talkin’…” (he’s kind of a rough dude).
AP
feralboy12
15 June 2012 at 11:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yeah. We get that. Dar dar dar dar. But that’s not what we were fucking going to talk about.
Criminy. Try to talk about the underlying causes of a big problem, and people jump in with advice on how to ensure that problem happens to other people instead of you.
People wouldn’t get so fucking angry if this didn’t fucking happen all the fucking time.
Amphiox
15 June 2012 at 11:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If you do NOT find the topic emotional, then you do not qualify as a decent human being.
I disagree with him BECAUSE the sorts of posts he makes in the manner and context in which he makes them DO encourage rape.
You are NOT entitled to tell us what we should or should not find to talk about, you pretentious, arrogant shit.
'Tis Himself
15 June 2012 at 11:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Okay, let’s discuss how Horace is a rape apologist and Jenny & mills prefer to blame rape victims rather than actually do something about the rape culture.
Or is that not what Horace had in mind?
Amphiox
15 June 2012 at 11:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And yet, here you are, completely allowed to post your pitiful drivel.
And when you do get banned, your posts will still remain. The ideas contained within them will still remain. Anyone and everyone will still be able to view those ideas, respond to them, or even agree with them in future posts.
In other words, the ideas will still be allowed, you pitiful liar.
You are truly pathetic.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 11:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hey, Jenny, do you think you’d call it a reasonable precaution to avoid being alone in an elevator with a strange man at 4am when you’re in a foreign country? Just asking. Simple yes/no will do.
Amphiox
15 June 2012 at 11:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Did you see the most recent Mythbusters?
In knife versus gun, if the guy with the knife surprises you and charges you within a certain radius (which can extend as far out as 25 feet, depending on your relative strengths and reaction times), he will get into grappling distance (ie raping distance) before you can draw and fire your gun (and discounting the possibility that you might miss).
In an enclosed space, a gun offers almost zero advantage to the physically weaker party, even when that party is a trained, crack shot.
I guess you’ll also have to wear a chainmail undershirt and a chastity belt, just to be on the safe side, reasonably.
Note that this only applies to the “stranger in a dangerous place” scenario, which accounts for only a tiny minority of real world rapes.
So how does one take reasonable precautions that would work to prevent date rape?
Hire a retired FBI agent to psychologically profile all prospective dates?
Master the art of telepathy?
Do not eat or drink anything that has been out of your direct line of sight for more than 5 seconds while on a date?
Don’t go on dates?
teresalhotka
15 June 2012 at 11:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
My boss tells the story of a woman in an office building where she used to work. In the middle of the day, the woman was grabbed and dragged into a bathroom and raped. In broad daylight, in a populated office building.
My bosses co-workers were imagining all sorts of scenarios that made it the victim’s fault – no information, just woolgathering.
When she confronted them about it, one of them said something along the lines of:”she HAD to have done something to bring tthis on herself. Otherwise, it could happen to anybody. It could happen to me.”
Bingo. It can happen to anybody, anytime. But some people can’t handle that concept, so they hide their heads in the sand and repeat magic spells like dress codes and behavior codes, and times and places women should not be out and about. It’s as useless as incense and special water, but it makes them feel better, and they have to attack anyone who might break their precious little bubble.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
15 June 2012 at 11:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And also, don’t antagonise dudes by taking precautions in any way that they might notice.
Amphiox
15 June 2012 at 11:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
NAME a SPECIFIC example of a “reasonable” precaution, SHOW us the EVIDENCE that it changes the odds, SHOW us the quantification of HOW MUCH it changes the odds, and THEN we can talk about THAT SPECIFIC “reasonable” precaution and whether it is or is not reasonable or practical and whether talking about that SPECIFIC “reasonable” precaution is or is not, and in what circumstances, useful and not victim blaming.
SPECIFIC DETAILS, with EVIDENCE of effectiveness.
Or else shut up.
Or don’t, keep talking, and continue to reveal yourself to be a morally reprehensible excuse for a human being.
NuMad
15 June 2012 at 11:53 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amphiox,
But… he’s “just sayin’!”
You’re saying that this isn’t an all purpose “rape prevention tips” thread? It’s so hard to keep track of context.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 11:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh yeah, Alethea, I forgot about that part. The “offensive” part of Schrodinger’s Rapist wasn’t that women have to be hypervigilant around men because any man could be a rapist, it’s that a woman at some point may have considered that the resident Nice Guy on the thread could be a rapist, and he’d never ever do that in a million billion years because he’s so Nice!
Even Nice Guys manage to make it all about them; in fact, they seem peculiarly adept at it.
Jafafa Hots
15 June 2012 at 11:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh, by the way – one of the guys was a grade school guidance counselor.
Reasonable Precaution: Don’t be 11 years old. Or go to school.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
15 June 2012 at 11:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amphiox @226
I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say I adore your post. *throws flowers*
BCPA_Lady (now appearing in MN!)
15 June 2012 at 11:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jenny6833a:
I wasn’t going to add anything to this because others have said so much and said it so much better than I could. My heart hurts for those who bared themselves to try and help you understand and got shit on for their efforts.
The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless. It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.
All the precautions in the world didn’t help a 19yo friend who was raped in the bathroom of the fast-food joint where she worked. By a co-worker. At 4pm. While wearing an ugly ass polyester uniform.
None of your precautions helped the 52yo neighbor who was raped by another neighbor. In her home. While her kids were doing homework in another room.
None of your precautions would have helped my then 14-yo sister who was raped by a church deacon. In the pastor’s office. With 30 other teenagers within earshot.
None of your precautions helped me when I was the victim of an attempted rape 2 years ago that was stopped only by sheer fucking luck. At 10pm. In my own home.
Not one of those was reported. Because we feared the assholes like you who have told us over and over that only people who don’t take “reasonable precautions” are raped. Because we worried what people would say about us. Because we worried about how people would justify what our attackers did to us.
Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you. It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.
Just_A_Lurker
15 June 2012 at 11:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Reasonable Precaution (for me): Don’t have a pedophile parent.
Or Don’t get born at all. That’s truly the safest route!
/Sarcasm, Snark & Bitterness
Amphiox
16 June 2012 at 12:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Human beings do this all the time, of course, with all things. Doubtless an evolved response. In fact it is probably linked to the evolution empathy. When we learn of something bad happening to someone else, the first thing we’ll instinctively do is put ourselves in the other’s shoes and imagine it happening to us. The second thing is trying to think of how we could avoid it happening to us, and third thing is imagining what we could do and they didn’t do that led to the bad thing happening to them, and would prevent the bad thing from happening to us. And the immediate survival benefit that selects for this trait is of course that in those situations where we could prevent the bad thing from happening to us, it helps us not have bad things happen to us.
This of course means that the response is selected to be biased in the direction of agency, so that we will ALWAYS think that there is something we can do to prevent the bad thing from happening to us.
This instinct is probably actually responsible for the origin of religions and religious rituals.
And of course, the other corollary of this is that it demonstrates just how profoundly selfish the response of people like jenny, horace, and mills is. It is an instinctive projection of I don’t want this to happen to me.
All about keeping oneself safe, dressed up in the false clothes of caring about the victim.
Because what practical use is talking about precautions to the victim AFTER the event? You got a time machine for the victim to go back in time and change the past?
And what use are generalities without specific examples to anyone else?
It is all about the self.
Aquaria
16 June 2012 at 12:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh, and you also completely ignored the context I provided above, about how some women live and/or work in “sketchy” areas, and/or maybe work late at night and don’t have the luxury of staying indoors in a “nice” middle-class neighborhood after dark like a “good girl” should.
People like, oh–POSTAL WORKERS.
I worked late at night for the majority of my postal career. For some jobs, I went to work at 6 pm or 7, and got off at 2.30 – 3.30 in the morning. I had to go out into a parking lot that usually had no gate, no guards–it was totally open, and just off major freeways (I had more than one job like this). And a lot of them were in shitty, shitty neighborhoods.
You hope that there’s so much activity of people going in and out, trucks being loaded and unloaded, arriving and departing, that someone would be less likely to rape.
Oddly enough, more than one of my friends was raped inside postal facilities by one of her co-workers
Funny, that jibes with the goddamned data!
73% of women are raped by someone she knows:
38% of rapists are friends or acquaintances.
28% are intimate partners.
7% are relatives.
Citations can be found here:
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
Amphiox
16 June 2012 at 12:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And of course the NEXT effect of talking about “precautions” is telegraphing to the victim, and all victims, that they don’t matter anymore.
Precautions, even if effective, only help other people who have not yet been raped, avoid being raped.
So the more effort you focus on this, the more you’re telling the rape victims that you no longer care about them. They’re just statistics now, damaged goods, lost assets.
Not people anymore, just illustrative examples so that others can protect themselves in the future.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 12:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Holy mother of cheese, THIS. Because if I’m walking alone at night, a guy starts walking towards me, and I get nervous, I am a horrible man hating feminazi who is no better than a racist. But if I’m walking alone at night, a guy starts walking towards me, and then he rapes me, then what was I doing out by myself at night? Why wasn’t I carrying a weapon? What was wrong with me that I wasn’t taking Reasonable Precautions?
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
16 June 2012 at 12:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
All of those, or none of them, or perhaps something else, depending on who the victim is. As Gyeong Hwa points out:
TRIGGER WARNING EXTREME EXAMPLES OF RAPE CULTURE TO FOLLOW
Maybe the thing you did was be a lesbian in public. Held hands with your date. And someone decided you needed to be raped straight, as a radio host advised a father calling into an Ohio radio station, worried his daughter was gay.
It’s not just privilege in action, it’s patriarchy enforcement in action, directly. Because the definition of what’s wanton or loose or who’s insufficiently emphatic in her rejections changes moment by moment, and women certainly don’t get to define it. It’s whatever is needed at that moment to restrict women’s ability just to move about in the world freely. That’s definitely privilege. When I lived in India for five months, I lost a lot of freedom of movement just by being a woman. The sexual harassment on the street is just unbelievable, and I’ve heard it’s gotten worse in the ten years since I was there. I have in fact wandered down many a dark alley and down a one-lane dirt road late at night, or into the early morning rather, taken trains, hitchhiked, banged guys a few hours after meeting them, taken drugs, dressed sexy, dressed like a slut, worn a bikini. Those all happened after I was assaulted, though. Well, OK, I did get high a few times before I left for Europe.
Back on topic: I certainly didn’t appreciate til then what a privilege it is just to move about without hindrance. On Matt Dillahunty’s FB page, there are idiots arguing that it’s ludicrous to say that rape and street harassment are on a continuum of misogynist behavior. I invite anyone who agrees with them to check out iHollaback Mumbai and see what they have to say about the connection between street harassment and sexual violence.
Both street harassment and rape “prevention tips,” in reality rape apologia in the form of instructions, serve to keep women out of public spaces and thus out of politics, organizing, business opportunities, and just plain fun.
Years ago it would be unbelievable, that women could even vote, or that the crime rate would drop for decades with no apparent cause. I see no reason not to believe that harassment can be, if not totally eradicated from our lives, at least drastically reduced.
Also, I have to wonder: in places like Egypt, where 85% of women have experienced street harassment, or in South Africa, where there’s been a rape epidemic lately, partly spurred by a strong believe in “corrective” rape (vis. the radio host), you have to wonder what Mills’ or Jenny’s advice would be to those women: “Don’t dress so Egyptian” maybe? Except 93% of foreign women report experiencing harassment while visiting Egypt.
Apologies for the long and rambley post, this has been building up all day.
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
16 June 2012 at 12:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
To be clear, the host’s advice was to get someone ELSE to “screw her straight,” not that the father should do it.
Rageful, yes, But accurate.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 12:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jesus fucking Christ, I need to stop reading that website @32. It’s unbelievably awful.
Emphasis in the original text.
And note, women, that “[breaking] free from the grip with extreme force” counts as initiating the physical violence. Because if he grabs you won’t let you go, it’s not violence. You should, you know, refer back to Peyton’s the five causes of violence! But then, it would have apparently been fine for her to provoke an attack by initiating the violence if she’d just been MORE violent.
There aren’t enough curse words to hold my contempt for that site and the fools who wrote it.
Pteryxx
16 June 2012 at 12:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Bleargh – in all this thread I didn’t get physically sick until that excerpt.
Anri
16 June 2012 at 12:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m having trouble parsing this any other way than “Please save being upset for some topic that’s actually, yanno, important or something! Sheesh! It’s no big deal, just a little rape!”
*shudder*
. . .
And for those people who are invoking Orwellian Thought Police imagery:
The regulars here don’t want you to stop posting. They want you to stop posting things that are stupid, wrong, or cruel. Especially after they have let you know that what you’re posting is stupid, wrong, or cruel.
Being free to post stupid, wrong, or cruel things is not the same as being free from being told (correctly) that they are stupid, wrong or cruel.
Take it from someone who has posted stupid and wrong stuff (I’ve managed to avoid cruel, fortunately), and been called on it. It’s not the end of the world. Just pause, and say to yourself, Hmm, these people know a lot more about this subject than I do. Maybe I better shut the hell up and listen to them. You can always go back to being stupid, wrong or cruel after the break.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 12:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So I had just completed AIT at DLI and everybody was in the midst of packing and moving out. My roomie had moved out. The barracks were mostly empty. Then a higher-ranking NCO came to the room—-and shut the door behind him. Married. Pleasant. Professional. He had seen me at the mall wearing a knee-length skirt instead of the usual BDUs. Notice how I specify the length? Yeah. You get told in so many ways you have to prove yourself.
So the door is locked. And I’m all alone. And he starts moving in, murmuring how hot I am, and I know he’s married and if, somehow, somebody believed me, and he got convicted, I still couldn’t handle it. One look in his eyes and I know he’s telling himself that this isn’t happening, or that it’s my fault for being young and all that, but I know one thing for sure: he’s lying to himself. His whole world—his rank, his marriage, his career, his reputation—-were based on that lie. Confront him with that lie, frankly and flatly, and his whole world would shatter. He’d feel threatened. Like anybody would believe me. He had the absolute power to ruin my life and send me to Leavenworth if he accused me of insubordination or lying. Get that? Yeah. I could have been charged.
The air changed in that room. It turned from vapor to hot liquid, and he kept getting closer, muttering how cute I was, whatever. And I had just passed the final Russian exams at 2, 2+, 3, but suddenly I was the dumbest person there was. If he had to look in the mirror and see what I saw, it would kill him. Worse yet would be if he feared anyone else seeing it. Worst of all, I realized completely that a whole world of men like this existed: men who did this to women, and then just shut down that part of their brain, and sounded convincing when they denied it. The thing that stuck with me was how dangerous it was to put a name to it, to what he was trying to do. Name it and the illusion was over.
I spoke fluent Russian at that point, but I was abruptly the stupidest person on the planet. I have no idea what I said. I babbled, I wriggled away, I sidled here and there, I dodged, I made up laundry excues, I just filled up all that dangerous empty space with nonsense. And I got to the door somehow without looking scared or sweaty or anything but fantastically stupid, unlocked it, and ran.
When I recounted this story later, somebody said, in not so many words, “Oh, so that’s (why you hate men so much, you bitter feminazi bitch) blah blah blah euphemisms that they think give them plausible deniability even though the hatred seethes out of them.” Like him, they give themselves excuses. They always use other words. They hate you for calling it for what it is. And it’s obvious that you can’t hate this culture and everything it does to women unless you’ve been driven crazy by a rape or an attempted one, which is just one more way they tell women fuck you. You’re not allowed to get angry about rape if you haven’t been raped, but if you have been raped then you’re crazy and you hate men and are probably lying anyway. It’s kind of like how you can’t have people of color talking about racism because they’re too close to it, and only white men are logical enough and distant enough to discuss it.
I cannot think of one single woman I know who has not been harassed, catcalled, raped, assaulted, groped, and sneered at for daring to call these things by their real names. And it might very well be more than once in this culture.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 12:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m sure your scrupulousness will mean a lot to the victim blamers here Sally.
Holy fucking fuck. I’m not sure what else there is to add here as the regular commentariat has done the usual amazing job of responding to despicable human beings with far more reasoned arguments and facts than they deserve (none) and exactly the right amount of venom (as much as is humanly possible).
I’m bookmarking that “rape prevention” site to use as an example in the future. The metaphor of choice there seems to be that the rapist is a speeding train and you can’t stop him so you’d better get off the tracks. letting yourself pass out at a party is compared to sleeping on the tracks. The only problems of course is that the entire fucking world is a rail yard, and the trains are silent and invisible.
Maybe it’s redundant now but I am also a victim. I was molested repeatedly by a man who was the closest thing to a father I ever had. I almost never discuss it, probably because I still haven’t been able to forgive myself for letting it happen. I was too young to understand what was happening but I can’t help but cast myself as a “willing” participant. I was in preschool when it started. My family broke ties with him a few years later and when I was 11 I told my mom (I didn’t volunteer the information, she asked. apparently she had suspicions) and we even tried to press charges. I was interviewed by a DA who declined to press charges since the word of a child is not reliable enough (especially when it’s “just” fondling). The only consolation I can take is that if any of the bastard’s other victims ever come forward there is at least *some* paper trail on the creep now so maybe they’ll have better luck.
I wonder what precautions I should have taken?
Fuck. Thanks to everyone else who has shared their stories. It helps.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 1:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Dysomniak, in any event between a child and an adult, the adult is at fault. You didn’t do anything wrong. Adults have the duty to protect the innocence and trust of kids. He screwed up his job. Your job was to be a kid.
Changing the topic but bouncing off something you said—-rapist apologists always act like men are objects that women have to maneuver around, or just factor into their lives, because men are things, men are forces of nature, and women are just required to adjust. And if you don’t circle carefully around men—-but don’t let them see that you’re doing it, OMG!——and avoid them, then it’s your fault. It’s like going out into a thunderstorm without an umbrella and expecting not to get wet, even though you (the general you) were so uppity as to refuse to take an umbrella, because you want the rain to avoid you. If that doesn’t show how highly men regard themselves, I don’t know what does.
jenny6833a
16 June 2012 at 1:07 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If you wish to express disagreement, please have the courtesy and HONESTY to disagree with someting I’ve said. Don’t rebut all manner of stuff I didn’t say.
“The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless.”
Yeah, sure, like defensive driving is all but useless.
“It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.”
Agreed. So what’s YOUR solution?
Complaining on and on about how impossible it (supposedly) is to stay safe isn’t going to help.
“Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you.”
I’ve never said that. I’ve repeatedly emphasized that precautions can’t eliminate rape, but can change the odds. Changing the odds is worth some degree of effort.
“It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.”
Changing the odds in my favor isn’t dangerous to me. Just the opposite.
For those who have already been raped, moving the odds may prevent being raped again.
You might better understand my point if you were to review the material you got in 8th or 9th grade about probability theory, although I’m certain your teachers didn’t call it that.
And before you criticize my recommendations, perhaps you should come up with our own recommended approach to a full or partial solution.
Until you do, you’re just futilely wringing your hands.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 1:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
In defensive driving, you fucking moron, you get two people in two huge inanimate objects. Oh, and let’s ignore sexism and size differentials and blatant power differences. Let’s ignore all that so you can piss on rape victims to make yourself feel safe.
You’ll get respect when you’ve earned it. You’re just a rapist apologist who’s shitting all over victims and preening about how great you are.
Kelvin Pauli
16 June 2012 at 1:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amphiox, I related quite a bit to your post about empathy. In particular, “When we learn of something bad happening to someone else, the first thing we’ll instinctively do is put ourselves in the other’s shoes and imagine it happening to us.” Beyond that, I find that I simultaneously imagine myself beside the actual victim, almost in an ethereal sense. It is such a helpless feeling. I feel like I wish I could do something to stop it – to prevent it – but I can only watch.
I never cried so hard in my entire life as when I read about the Tori Stafford case. I don’t know if any of you are familiar with it. Google it if you don’t know. I cried so hard because I could relate my childhood self to that poor little girl while simultaneously floating next to her through her whole experience. From the smiles and promises of puppies to the cries, screams, pain, and death. It brings tears to my eyes every time I think of it. I wish there was something, some precaution that could have saved that child. But I know now that truly there isn’t. To a certain extent, women must feel a helplessness similar to that ghost that walks next to Tori Stafford in her final moments. Maybe that doesn’t make sense; maybe I’m rambling.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 1:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hey guys,
I just wanted to say that I truly am sorry if I hurt the feelings of any sexual assault victims. I realize my words may have come off wrong, and my intent was never to make a victim feel that they deserved the terrible things that happened to them. I got carried away in the heat of the debate, which was wrong.
I will be more careful in the future as to how I phrase things, and to keep in mind the statistics about rape being primarily a crime committed in homes and innocuous places — I apologize if I came across as condescendening.
Please though, I think it would be more helpful to your opinions if you kept the discussion a little more civil, and treated people who have different opinions from you with more respect. I think I, and a few others in this thread, have been misunderstood, and our words taken out of proportion and our intentions and beliefs skewed. I would never, ever, blame the victim of a crime, and I don’t believe anyone on here would either. I almost felt like I was arguing about something completely different from what you all were rebutting.
Perhaps it’s because I still live at home with mum and dad, but they always tell me things like “don’t go running too far off campus,” “don’t walk back from the music department in the middle of the night,” and so on. I honestly have never felt anything but a little annnoyed at these requests, and I heeded them because people do get mugged, two girls have been sexually assaulted (at least that have reported it) in the last few weeks at my university, one that was walking alone back to her apartment — so they seemed reasonable. And I still believe they are reasonable things for a caring parent or friend to tell me.
That being said, I see now how that sort of statement can come across as cruel or condescending when put out as an “anti-rape” advisory, since a lot of rapes occur that aren’t preventable by the victim. I think the real issue we should all focus on here is how to get at the problem from its roots, making it so women (and men and children) should not be afraid or ashamed to report what happened to them by making it clear it is never their fault, and by enforcing punishments for rape, and also hopefully, someday getting people who do rape to realize what a horrible thing it is they do.
Anyways, my heart goes out to the victims. I can’t say I can empathize, but I can still care, and again, I have a very close family member who was sexually abused as a child, so I have seen what scars it can leave.
Have a good night everyone. And jenny and mills, I know you guys aren’t “despicable human beings” just like I am not, so don’t let that get to you.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 1:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Never. *virtual hugs if you want them*
I’m so sorry.
For what it’s worth, I have some inkling of what you mean, about the fact that you can’t help but feel like you had some agency or choice in the situation, when in fact you were a child and it was not your fault, not even possible for it to be your fault. That’s one of the worst things an abuser can do to you, to make you feel like you were complicit when you couldn’t possibly have been. And it’s one of the horrible callous cruelties of people talking about how it wasn’t your fault but what if, but did you consider, but maybe, but but but. Even when there’s no possible way you could have done anything about it, you still replay in your head, running through every way you could have stopped it, every way he maybe didn’t mean it, every way it could have been your fault. And they think they’re telling us about Reasonable Precautions because they caaare. Fuckers.
adamgordon
16 June 2012 at 1:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I feel ill.
Pteryxx
16 June 2012 at 1:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
We’ve only been doing that since the OP, you nit. Raise awareness of the pointless victim-blaming game that women are forced to play, and put the focus back where it belongs – on the rapists, who are mostly acquaintances and family operating with impunity because of victim-blaming and false narratives.
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
16 June 2012 at 1:19 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You… begin to truly disgust me. How utterly selfish.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
16 June 2012 at 1:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Emphasis mine. So if someone wasn’t offended, you’re not sorry. So, you don’t care that shit you said was offensive and victim-blaming and immoral, you’re just mad that someone got upset and called you on your shit.
That’s right, reiterate that not-pology!
Do you know where you are? This is Pharyngula, not Coddle the Rape Apologists Blog. If you want that, go…well, go nearly anywhere else, because Pharyngula is one of the few places where rape apologists are actively and universally condemned by the regular commentariat.
Maybe you lot can form a Troll Support Group and bawl about how mean the Pharyngulites were to you.
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
16 June 2012 at 1:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amaclean, this isn’t the venue for you. No hard feelings. But read the standards and practices: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/08/01/pharyngula-standards-practices/
Pretty much everything you wish for directly contradicts those guidelines.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 1:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Your advice presumes that every other women on the planet is so stupid she’s not already doing that, and furthermore assumes that you are super special wonderful for thinking it up. Meanwhile, the burden on the rapists and the observers, and the culture is exactly zero.
The person wringing their hands here is you, because until you can lock away every woman, not removing rapists from the general population leaves them free to rape. If any one of you idiotic rapist apologists ever thought to consider how to affect the culture surrounding the rapists—their friends, the symptoms they might see, the clues the rapists give off, the observers who see the rapists’ actions, hear the rapists’ words—-then perhaps new, novel, helpful advice to women (none of which describes your ‘advice’) might be helpful, but until we actually see the rapist as the problem—-and all the people, like you, who enable him by making him disappear——then telling the victim to just STFU and take advice that was old when the Earth’s crust was still cooling.
Rapists have friends. Rapists have siblings, parents, co-workers, girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, ex wives, children, and witnesses. They see how he consistently denigrates women, jokes about rape, disrespects women, or more subtly, is always surrounded by the smoke of incidents with women. If you actually educated yourself, you’d find that rapists have a hard time concealing their contempt of women, but maybe one person stepping up and saying something might make a difference. But of course our culture thinks women are stupid and heedless, as you have demonstrated all too obviously, and that contempt toward them is appropriate and all they deserve, barring those uppity feminazis with their unreasonable demands about jailing rapists, respecting women, and not calling women liars and idiots in the guise of ‘offering them advice.’
The best material on rape is still Tim Beneke’s Men on Rape, where he talks to a variety of men who commit rapes, who fantasize about them, who arrest them, charge them, treat the victims, and make excuses for rapists. Like you’re doing. It’s got to be twenty years old, but the remarks of the rape crisis center at the end of the book remain prescient: “All these men assume that women must be the one to stop rape, that they must be the one to change their actions.” Like you’re doing.
Which places no strain on men, and lets the culture stay where it is.
jenny6833a
16 June 2012 at 1:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
ROTFLM6833AO !!! You want me to prove that rapes didn’t happen that otherwise would have happened.
You’re at best only semi-sane.
BTW, you’re full of contempt for my approach to personal safety. What’s yours?
What is your approach?
Or are you all yappety-yap, and no substance?
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
16 June 2012 at 1:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You claimed that there are “reasonable rape prevention” methods, yet you haven’t named any or explained how they prevent rape or show that they do or showed how they’re reasonable or how you can decide for someone else what is reasonable. You’re so out of bounds you’re making me write run-on sentences.
Aquaria
16 June 2012 at 1:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“The problem is all your “reasonable precautions” are all but useless.”
Yeah, sure, like defensive driving is all but useless.
YOU CAN CAUSE YOURSELF TO BE IN AN ACCIDENT.
YOU CANNOT RAPE YOURSELF YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT.
“It is not being out at 3am or wearing revealing clothing or anything else that causes rape. It is the presence of the rapist, who is likely to be someone you know, someone who doesn’t appear skeevy or threatening or may even seem harmless.”
Agreed. So what’s YOUR solution?
GETTING MEN TO STOP RAPING AND NOT BLAMING VICTIMS THE WAY SCUMBAGS LIKE YOU HAVE DONE.
Complaining on and on about how impossible it (supposedly) is to stay safe isn’t going to help.
You’re the one who’s not listening or understanding the solution, you lying sack of dog shit.
“Stop living in your magical world where if you just step on all the right squares or tick all the right boxes, you can avoid the bad people and bad things won’t happen to you.”
I’ve never said that.
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE.
I’ve repeatedly emphasized that precautions can’t eliminate rape, but can change the odds. Changing the odds is worth some degree of effort.
YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE ODDS UNTIL YOU CHANGE RAPE CULTURE, you dishonest fucking moron.
“It’s fucking dangerous to you and it’s fucking hurtful to those who have been raped.”
Changing the odds in my favor isn’t dangerous to me. Just the opposite.
Because you’re the only one who matters.
And I hope garbage slime like you are never in the position where you find out that all your “prevention” does ZERO to save you.
For those who have already been raped, moving the odds may prevent being raped again.
Tell us how OG and the others could have prevented being raped following your single-minded bullshit.
Tell me how I could prevent being gang-raped.
Come on.You’re so fucking all knowing. Tell us.
You’re the one who says you know.
Put the fuck up or shut the fuck up.
You might better understand my point if you were to review the material you got in 8th or 9th grade about probability theory, although I’m certain your teachers didn’t call it that.
You might understand something if you had a) a brain b) a heart or c) any fucking humanity.
Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.
And before you criticize my recommendations, perhaps you should come up with our own recommended approach to a full or partial solution.
YOU’RE THE ONE WHO DOES NOT GET THAT NOBODY HAS SAID NOT TO TRY SOME PREVENTATIVES.
You’re just one of the stupid ass scumbags who doesn’t get that IT’S THE RAPISTS WHO NEED TO BE DEALT WITH, STUPID!
Until you do, you’re just futilely wringing your hands.
Fuck you.
Fuck you and your smug pretentious bullshit all the way back to whatever garbage dump you came from.
You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a clueless douchecanoe.
adamgordon
16 June 2012 at 1:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Go read ginmar’s comment at 255 ten fucking more times. You didn’t get it the first time.
Aquaria
16 June 2012 at 1:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
ROTFLM6833AO !!! You want me to prove that rapes didn’t happen that otherwise would have happened.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (since you’re being fucking juvenile that way).
You’re the fucking scumbag who said your bullshit tactics would work.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT THEY DO, dumbass.
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
16 June 2012 at 1:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ableist to boot.
RahXephon, worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, the Antichrist, Stalin, and Mao combined
16 June 2012 at 1:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I think Aquaria has the right idea. I’m nearly in spittle-flecked apoplexy screaming-fit mode myself with these shitbricks.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 1:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Adamgordon, I forgot to say one more thing about Men on Rape: sometimes, you can’t tell the rapists from the guys who prosecute them, or the guys labeled ‘ordinary’—who fantasize about justified rapes—-you know, like the guys who think it’s okay to make rape jokes about people like Ann Coulter. Because she’s a bad woman, and what do you do to bad women?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 1:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Stop treating rapists as though they are not products of their environments, as though there is no way to control their violence. Educate children, all children, about the importance of consent, including their own rights to their own bodies. “No means no” is insufficient. STOP FUCKING VICTIM BLAMING because it discourages reporting and harms the victims who do report, and so many rapists are repeat offenders. Educate people about the actual experiences of rape victims to destabilize the idiotic idea that Strange Men In Bushes are the thing they really need to be worried about, and that if a Strange Man In a Bush didn’t jump out and grab you, maybe you’re just a slut having buyers’ remorse. Stop making excuses for rapists, stop accusing victims of lying, and shut down anyone who does. Improve the socioeconomic status of women of color, work to eradicate racist beliefs about the sexualities of women of color, and raise awareness of the ways in which sexual violence intersects with race. Work to improve visibility of trans people, so as to help erase the social dehumanization of trans women that leads to such a high rate of violence against them. Work to improve visibility of queer people for the same reasons. Promulgate knowledge about alternative sexualities, and promote the rights of sex workers. I could probably come up with some more, but I really have a paper to get back to.
Your solutions? “Get a big dog.” Great. You have fun with that.
echidna
16 June 2012 at 1:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jenny,
All those precautions, like magic talismans, don’t change the odds. All it does is make women fair game, by putting the responsibility of avoiding rape onto them.
Look at the extremes: women sunbathing on nude beaches are not seen to be asking to be raped. Women in burkas are not protected by their clothing.
Women in their own homes are not safe. Women have perfectly legitimate reasons to move around in public at all times of the day or night.
If we want to change the odds to be in your favour, we need to change the culture. It’s not the behaviour of women that needs to change, it’s the idea that power and status do not entitle anybody to take whatever they want.
McCthulhu has never been serious...ever! (*)^_^
16 June 2012 at 1:38 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I can tell by the length of the thread (and as with all parties, I’m late to this one as well) that the apologists for rape culture decided to show up. How hard is it just to say, yes, we need to change the remaining reptile-brained, mouth-breathing clods with severe ostracism for joking about it, and severe legal and financial penalties for breaking laws dealing with the problem. And by severe, I mean genuinely severe, no slaps on the wrist. Someone thinking rape is fun may have a different opinion of it after spending 15-20 years in jail and a ‘say goodbye to your house’ kind of fine, rather than ridiculous slaps on the wrist they get now.
And for those in the skeptic movement that are still making apologies for rape culture, rather than acknowledging and addressing the issue appropriately, how about taking a walk back down the railroad tracks that brought you from religious belief to your current state of thinking, and try to pinpoint exactly where it is you forgot to drop off the religious baggage of patriarchal, misogynist and sexist bullshit. Try taking the trip again from there and see if you fare much better in being a rational person, one that recognizes the equality and rights of all persons, even those sans penis.
This isn’t a hard issue to wrap one’s head around. You either recognize this isn’t the dark ages and the situation must reflect the supposed high ethical standards and equal fairness of a modern, democratic society, or you are an oblivious, anachronistic asshole. It is that simple a dichotomy.
jenny6833a
16 June 2012 at 1:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I asked for a plan to solve the problem. You’re offering mutterings from a thread that almost no one reads and that no mainstream publication would print. Bubba, that ain’t no plan!
I agree, of course, that the focus should be on rapists. More importantly the focus should be on jailing rapists and preventing potential rapists from becoming rapists.
I’m advocating exactly that, but you don’t want to hear it.
In fact, you have no plan. You just want to bewail.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 1:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I just wanted to say that I truly am sorry if I hurt the feelings of any sexual assault victims.
Emphasis mine. So if someone wasn’t offended, you’re not sorry. So, you don’t care that shit you said was offensive and victim-blaming and immoral, you’re just mad that someone got upset and called you on your shit.
If what I said was offensive, then it offended someone, and I recognized that it did. What someone says has to be offensive to someone to be bad (in order to be immoral, it must be hurtful to someone). Of course I am sorry, and upset and disappointed with myself, if I hurt someone’s feelings or triggered negative emotions. I do not like to do so, and as far as I know (besides here apparently), I am pretty good at taking a wide variety of people’s feelings into account.
My point, and yes, perhaps its a moot point considering the snarky culture of this blog, is that calling the person you disagree with names or telling them they are evil, bad people, is not successful in changing their opinion. I have been guilty of doing the exact same thing myself — so I realize it’s hard not to do. But if you try to put yourself in that person’s shoes, understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it and then reason to them as if you were them, they may be more receptive to what you have to say. It’s something I really need to work on doing more, I definitely recognize that.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 1:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You are getting more obtuse by the post. Is it late where you are? Would it be a good idea for you to take a break?
teresalhotka
16 June 2012 at 1:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
As I watched one of the videos linked to (I believe it was the one called “The GReat Penis Debate”),
I heard one of the commenters say that “all of the sudden” (refering to “elevatorgate”) people went from talking about “guys, don’t do that” to “How do you know he wasn’t a rapist?”
And that is one vital componant at the root of all of the misunderstanding on this topic, IMO. A lot of people don’t know what sorts of forms rapes can take. They’ve got the picture lodged in their brains, of the lurking boogy-man stranger in the bushes with a knife and can’t be bothered to learn anything about the more reality-based models of the ways that many rapists operate.
The transition from “guys don’t do that” to “he might have been a rapist” is only mystifying and nonsensical if you really honestly think that rape follows a movie script, and all rapists come from central casting.
The ultimate irony for me is, that here we have people saying that women are responsible for being aware of and recognizing and avoiding all potential danger…but at the same time, screaming “reverse sexism!” when people show awareness and recognize a scenario that could be a set-up for a rape attempt -even when it is kind of textbook.
So basically women are responsible for knowing and recognizing every danger sign of an impending rape attempt without being paranoid, and without saying anything to anybody because they don’t want backlash from making men feel sterotyped because they mentioned that it was a man that was behaving in a threatening manner…and we don’t need any policies or discussion, or awareness because it’s not a problem anyway, and even if it is, it’s their problem not ours.
Brilliant! Problem solved, I guess.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 1:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Except when it is. Different approaches work for different people. If you need to be coddled, you don’t belong here.
Honestly, though, I’ve stopped caring. I don’t care what you believe in your heart of hearts. I care that you stop saying and doing harmful shit. And if you do that because you’re afraid of being shamed and verbally torn into by people who actually know what they’re talking about and are willing to tell you in painstaking detail what an ass you are, instead of because you have gotten your head straight on the issue, I really don’t care. As long as you stop.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 1:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jenny, if your advice actually works, countries where women are supposed to cover themselves completely should be the safest in the world. Take notes, there will be a quiz. Why aren’t they? So should other conservative environments. Anyone who demands conservative clothing or behavior or restrictions of rights for women is basically trading womens’ rights for mens’ ability to prey on women. They are loosing the reins so that men can rape with just about complete impunity.
Another necessary thing: get rid of the all evidence of the double standard, and encourage people to ridicule those people who seem to think consent is a scary, mysterious, narrow little tightrope thingie, which women capriciously yank out from under them when they feel like it. If you aren’t sure if you have consent….you don’t. And if you’re arguing that it’s okay to fuck semi-conscious women (which usually comes up in discussions like this) you’re letting people know that you are such a revolting scumbag that you cannot imagine a woman voluntarily and enthusiastically having sex with you.
There have been numerous cases in the news of bartenders, women, waitresses, waiters, noticing rapes about to happen—date rape drugs, commonly—and who have acted and prevented not only a nearly-certain rape but also apprehended the guy, who almost certainly was not doing this for the first time. (Oh, and not that those categories are mutually exclusive.) Look up the case of the Max Factor heir, who raped dozens of women and fled to Mexico for a while. Look up that guy from Craig’s List, who raped numerous women and who only got convicted of a few rapes because the women he raped did not behave like culturally-approved Good Rape Victims—–they were confused, they were stunned, they had heard all the myths and were offered no alternatives. Some of them tried to prove to themselves it hadn’t been rape. None of that shows up in culturally-approved rape narratives, where the venue is always a dark deserted alley and the victim is always Bill Napoli’s wet dream twelve-year-old virgin.
Oh, and if that mythical alley is so deserted, how come it’s not perfectly safe? If one’s looking for victims, wouldn’t one go where there are other people? It’s like looking for water in Death Valley.
kristinc, ~ringy dingy~
16 June 2012 at 1:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
15.
I was in my pajamas, too, in my bed, next to someone I had known for 5 years.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 1:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Isn’t it scientifically proven that positive reinforcement, rather than negative reinforcement, is more effective? I mean, my dad was quite successful in “winning” debates with me because he would throw things, yell, and get violent, but that never once changed what I believed, and it never made me think that what he said was right. I have realized that some of what I said was harmful; other parts of it, I maintain, have been blown out of proportion and misconstrued. I tried to make things right for those who were genuinely hurt or triggered by my comments, and apparently all that does is cue more anger. I’d appreciate if you don’t insinuate that I’m stupid either.
ginmar
16 June 2012 at 1:58 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You’ve faux apologized, piled the bullshit high, and now you’re whining and tone trolling? Positive reinforcement? PZ ought to ban you in the morning but leave your comments up as perfect examples of rape apology.
feralboy12
16 June 2012 at 2:00 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Huh?
No, what we want is some evidence that women taking all these “reasonable precautions” will actually make rape less common. Because if it doesn’t, then your little lecture on probability theory:
Well, let’s just look at the whole equation. If you lower your odds, but the number of rapists and the incidence of rape remains the same, what have you done? You’ve raised somebody else’s odds. Probably someone who has fewer choices about where they can be at what time.
That’s math. Your teachers probably called it “remedial.”
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:01 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes, please do ban all the people that disagree. Although what I’ve tried to point out is that there is VERY LITTLE THAT WE ACTUALLY DISAGREE ON. Quote me, any of my posts, where I said that people deserved to be raped, or that rape isn’t so bad, or whatever it is you think I’m trying to say.
FossilFishy (TMI? That's not TMI, *THIS* is TMI.)
16 June 2012 at 2:01 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Do you seriously think that you’re the first person to attempt that point here?
Guess what cupcake, there is plenty of evidence right here on this blog that shock tactics are what the complacent holders of ugly cultural norms need to wake up. People pop up all the time to point out how getting slapped down hard startled them into question their long held beliefs. Fuck, right in this thread there’s an example of this.
Not everyone will respond, ’tis true, but enough do that the practice has merit. And besides, just how well has being polite and respectful in one’s criticism of rape culture worked out in the past, hmmmm? Or for any social justice issue for that matter? If that kind of thing had any real effect on the world we wouldn’t be having this argument at all, let alone for fucking billionth time.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 2:02 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’d appreciate it if you don’t continue to think anyone in this thread owes you shit. You are the one who came into this thread and lectured from a position of ignorance on how mean we – the people whose lives are directly affected by the shit you’re spewing – were all being to people who were and still are causing harm. And you are the one who threw a strawmanning tantrum because the bloody Pharyngula horde wasn’t nice enough to you. Oh, and does anyone have a good resource on notpologies? Because I feel like amaclean needs some serious education on the matter.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And it was a genuine apology. But if you’d rather believe I’m a woman-hating, evil, baby-eating human (who considers herself a feminist), then go ahead. And to all of you, have a lovely night. :)
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 2:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@Nerd of Redhead (50)
Please don’t. I get your point, but at least one person here *coughs* has seriously considered it and not in the distant past either.
Re the tips reposted by Erista in 207 which I am not reposting.
By golly, it’s like a walkthrough for how to be a good battered spouse! Spoiler warning: It doesn’t help.
Shit, I get a morbid kick out of rape prevention tips. Since I’ve been raped while clothed, pajama-ed, and nude, I’m just not sure what to wear anymore!
NelC
16 June 2012 at 2:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amaclean, you’re talking to more than a bakers’ dozen of people who have been raped, an unknown number who have been sexually harassed, and a lot of people who are friends and relatives of people who have been raped and harassed. They have reason to be angry and short of patience with those who repeat the same old pointless rubbish. You may not have had the intention of blaming the victim, but that is what you’ve ended up doing. So you got sworn at. That’s going to happen if you repeat old, fallacious paralogic at people who have already been hurt by it.
So, you know, you need to take reasonable precautions to prevent it happening in the future. Don’t wander into a dark thread where swearing is taking place late at night. Don’t post provocatively. Don’t antagonise the thread’s posters. Don’t post while drunk. Always check your posts if you’ve left them unattended for any length of time while strangers are about. If you’re worried about a thread, try to get a friend to accompany you. If you take these few, simple precautions, you should always be safe.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 2:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Mills, jenny et al.
Here we are, back talking about victim culpability again, seemingly oblivious to the notion that this focus on rape prevention is exactly the framing that rape apologists use to punish the victim and which is too often employed by police and judiciary to let rapists off. As has been stated repeatedly, you are bolstering and perpetuating rape culture when you continually derail discussions to make them about what the victim should do. You fail to acknowledge that you, in your own special way, are complicit with rape culture.
No matter that your advice requires certain lurid scenarios, such as women in places you do not authorise them to be, or wearing clothes you do not authorise them to wear. No matter that it at best applies to attacks by stalkers and not other, more common forms of rape such as that which happens within the home.
Nope, you want to keep banging on about this because you want to win the point, because you have no empathy for the triggers you have been firing off here for actual rape victims, because with your whining about the rudeness of the commentators, this is really about you and your egos.
The woman in the cartoon is exhausted and frustrated because of folks like you. I’m exhausted because of your foolishness, because of your failure to see that you are part of the problem and not the solution.
Because yes, you ARE part of the problem, and no you are NOT helping. You are directly and indirectly empowering those who will punish victims because of their failures to follow advice that requires to them act and dress like a nun in order to have their story accepted by the authorities. Indeed, I’m not even certain a raped nun can expect justice in the current climate.
And that is a climate you are contributing to. Will you kindly stop now?
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well, thanks for the advice, I appreciate you looking out for my wellbeing. :)
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 2:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Very little except, you know, the acceptability of lecturing rape survivors (with dysomniak and kristinc making 16) about an issue that has directly affected their own lives and experiences from a position of blithe ignorance after they have explained how it is harmful and missing the point to do that, and the acceptability of lecturing people who have not been victims on how they do their own risk assessment strategies. I’m glad you’ve apparently learned that this is a bad idea, but now you’ve moved on to lecturing everybody for not being nice enough to you while you were being a callous asshole. Not good.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 2:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You know, this whole, “I’m changing the odds in my favor!” thing offends me.
Why? Because all it does is change the situation from one where you get raped to one where someone else gets raped.
So much of this “reasonable precaution” crap relies on that. “Women walking down this road are more likely to be raped,” they say, “so don’t walk down that road!” But if no one woman walked down that road, would the rapists lose their will to rape, or would they move to another road? The answer is the second, of course, because it is not the road that is causing the rape, it is the rapist.
Don’t walk too far off campus. Don’t walk back from the music department at night. Even if we assume those things make you safe (and they don’t), all you are doing is offering up some other woman as a scape goat, some other woman who didn’t follow the rules, because you have to know that if everyone followed the rules, the rapists would simply circle in tighter. We know this because societies with harsher rules for women don’t have fewer rapes; they often have more.
So stop it; stop acting like this is about time or place or anything like that. It’s about rapists.
Anri
16 June 2012 at 2:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
One of the primary ways to help reduce the number of rapes is to reduce the rape culture people are brought up in.
One major way to do this is to say, loudly, over and over, that rape is something that is done to people regardless of if they take your vaunted ‘precautions’ or not. Part of this is accepting and understanding the simple truth of this statement. This is one small step towards the long-term goal of making men understand that the solution, the only solution, to rape is for men to stop raping. That’s it, that’s all, there’s no other reasonable solution.
You’re watching the solution, a very small part of it, right here, in real time, on this blog.
And you’re arguing with the people doing it.
Please stop doing that.
Women can’t stop rape.
If they could, they would have.
Stop telling them they could, but choose not to.
Because, yes, that’s exactly what you are doing.
mikee
16 June 2012 at 2:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amaclean,
Sometimes a positive polite argument will work on people, sometimes it won’t. Assuming that one single method will work on everyone is naive. If you can point to any research that shows that a positive approach is superior,it would be good if you could share it.
It has been my experience that sometimes those who have not reasoned themselves into a particular point of view cannot be reasoned out of it. Sometimes a short sharp shock, in terms of having the faults in their argument pointed out and ridiculed (when they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge these faults) will work. Sometimes, when people a childish and petulant, a childish and petulant response can show them how silly they are being.
It takes all sorts of arguments, and I’m sure there are a few people on here who are willing to admit their positions have been changed when they have ended up on the receiving end of some strong criticism here. I certainly have been.
FossilFishy (TMI? That's not TMI, *THIS* is TMI.)
16 June 2012 at 2:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And another thing amaclean: Sometimes anger, even spittle flying, vein popping, full on RAGE, is appropriate. And from where I stand, anything, no matter how seemingly trivial, that perpetuates rape culture is something that deserves anger at the very least. I swear that the lefty, kumbayah singing, why can’t we all get alongggggg, drive me to rage faster than the most rabid of Christian fundamentalists.
FossilFishy (TMI? That's not TMI, *THIS* is TMI.)
16 June 2012 at 2:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Please insert one “idiots” in the above. Cheers.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“Research has found positive reinforcement is the most powerful of any of these. Adding a positive to increase a response not only works better, but allows both parties to focus on the positive aspects of the situation. Punishment, when applied immediately following the negative behavior can be effective, but results in extinction when it is not applied consistently. Punishment can also invoke other negative responses such as anger and resentment.”
http://www.allpsych.com/psychology101/reinforcement.html
Based on BF Skinner’s theories and work.
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 2:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@amaclean 291
Okay, fine. If you read and acknowledge the accounts that I and other rape victims have given you about how “rape prevention tips” affect us, I’ll give you a gold star. How about that!?
*mutters to self* asshole
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I would agree that rage is appropriate for some things, like people who say those with dark skin are inferior, or Jewish people deserved to be slaughtered, or that gay people should be put in an enclosed space and left to die out, or whatever it was that idiot said. But I think there are also degrees of appropriateness for anger. I get annoyed when people think that gay people should not be able to get married (but still should be given civil unions). While I disagree, I don’t think their opinion is evil, and I especially do not think that they re evil. I get very, very angry when people say gay people are not human, and should be treated with contempt. And I fly into a rage when I hear that people are killed for being gay in other countries.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 2:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So we must be improve our consistency in dealing out tongue-lashings to malefactors such as yourself! Thanks, I think you have just made the case for many of us here continuing our good work!
adamgordon
16 June 2012 at 2:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Do you honestly think that link has anything to do with what we’re talking about?
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 2:25 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
But women being doubly punished by being told they are culpable for their own rape? Meh, doesn’t do it for you, does it?
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I was asked to provide evidence that positive reinforcements are more effective than punishments. And to the above, that’s quotemining. Punishments also promote feelings of anger and resentment, which can be counter-productive to a cause.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 2:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And you also think that you are a good judge of what is an appropriate level of anger to be aimed at you for the harm you are doing to someone else.
Spare. Me.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 2:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean, I don’t think you are in a position to tell rape victims how angry they should be about people offering up “rape prevention tips” that place the responsibility for the rape on the victim.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
We’re obviously at a misunderstanding here. To avoid hurting anyone else’s feelings, I will give this a rest. If you’d like to email me about this, and feel you can explain to me clearly what I am thinking wrong, and won’t be at risk of getting triggered, I welcome this. I will listen.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 2:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
But you understand you are now shifting the argument to one of tone trolling?
A piece of gentle advice: that kind of thing does not go down well around here. Expect to get a savage kicking for it.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 2:31 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You know, giving rape victims the support they need to express their feelings (whether they be rage, fear, sadness, or whatever) is in fact a cause. I do not feel inclined to sacrifice it on the basis of the hurt feelings of those who are not interested in listening to victims of rape.
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber
16 June 2012 at 2:31 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean #293: So why don’t you do the same when women are blamed for having been raped by being told that they could have prevented it by doing something differently themselves?
Susannah
16 June 2012 at 2:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m really late to the party, but I’m still steaming over this:
Oh, I know! I know! It’s simple:
- Don’t be a kid.
- Don’t be babysat.
- Don’t play with schoolmates.
- Don’t have neighbours.
- Don’t have relatives. Especially, don’t interact with them if you’re forced to have them.
- It’s probably a good idea not to have parents, either.
- Don’t live with anyone, no matter how nice they seem. Don’t get married.
- Stay away from work environments. Avoid bosses and supervisors. And clients; don’t talk to customers.
- Never go to parties. Better still, don’t have friends.
- Oh, and make sure you are never alone; that would be asking for trouble.
It might be easier not to be born.
andrewriding
16 June 2012 at 2:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective
SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant
Sorry, I was unclear. I mean that the user base here is slightly prone to group think and attacking people that are already being attacked (not supposed to be a point I wanted to argue, I took it as a given after lurking for awhile. Not EVERYONE reads every single post and you do come to trust the instincts of certain posters- I don’t think it’s at all feasible to demand that everyone completely avoid doing that, and I know I sure can’t live up to that level of objectivity,) not that either of those things were happening in this thread, or at least that they were not relevant factors in the reaction those posters were getting.
They’ve said stupid things and then defiantly stood tall as if in pride of their ignorance of this topic. Their troubles here are very much their own fault, and I suspect the whole scene they’ve made is largely about them internally rejecting that they COULD possible be called out on a subject like this, where they are used to people tiptoeing and trying not to rock the boat instead of actually standing up about it.
Also: aww fuck, how long have they been misusing the term groupthink? Bigots keep taking away all of my corporate vocabulary. I think I’m using the term with a better psychological compr- no, never mind. I won’t even try to defend that. I retract that part of my statement. Dogpiling probably stands well enough alone for what my intent was, except of course how it likens you to feral dogs (or perhaps that can be a compliment?)
Gyeong Hwa
No, I’m being annoying accommodationist. I think I’m still sticking to the core of what matters but I’m doing it while sugar coating my words to people that have behaved in a completely disgusting manner and playing a bit into their “you can solve any social problem if you know the right trick” thought patterns. I like to think I reach at least a few people doing this that would otherwise remain blind to their folly, and honestly there are plenty of other people here that vastly exceed my capacity for telling people just how disgusting they are, so I leave that up to the people who are good at it.
Anyway I think the rest of what I said soundly blames those folks for what they’ve done to themselves and gives decent advice for how to better conduct themselves here and in the presence of other… experts on the net. Anybody hate any of the rest of what I said in that post and/or spot anywhere I’ve said something monstrous without realizing what I was implying? I’m genuinely interesting in teaching myself to stop doing things like that, just as soon as I’m able to identify them.
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 2:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@amaclean 293
Jesus fucking Christ on a flying reindeer, do you listen to yourself when you talk? We are not talking about things that have happened to other people that we can be dispassionate about. We are not even talking about the legitimately rage-inducing legal. We are talking about physical violation and how that suffering is compounded by attitudes like the ones you’re peddling.
Forgive me for being all emotional about how my own fucking family reminds me to make “better choices” in the future so that “that” won’t happen again. (Nooo, we can’t talk about it. Saying the word would be unthinkable. Let’s all pretend that it was just a mistake, an error on my part and not a fucking predator who–while the jury is out on whether it actually ruined my life given my age–threw me into an abyss of despair that I’m barely fucking clawing my way out of five years on.)
Actually, no, on second thought, go fuck yourself.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 2:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
No. You are ignorant, and worse, you are willfully obtuse, and think that this is justified based on people being SOOOOO MEAN to you.
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber
16 June 2012 at 2:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean #300: what part of what has been said here is unclear?
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:36 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
As I have said before, MANY TIMES, I would never tell a rape victim “well, if you had only []“. That’s plain mean and disrespectful, and wrong. I would tell my children to take certain, general precautions. I know this does not mean they are safe from rape, because a lot of rapes occur that cannot be prevented by this precautions. Nevertheless, I would try to shelter them from what potential dangers I can reasonably shelter them from without infringing on their freedom to live a full life. I do not see how that is wrong or offensive. Again, we are arguing different things here. Really, I’m not going to post anymore, it’s hard not to but obviously there is no point.
echidna
16 June 2012 at 2:36 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This really was a shift of goalposts, together with absolute arrogance of expecting people to do your bidding.
The plan is obvious – change the culture. Talk, talk, talk. Let people know that what’s expected.
I’ve seen a lot of societal change even in my lifetime. It used to be that rape within marriage was inconceivable, because women were deemed to have given permanent consent with their marriage vows (this is still the case in some places). Hopefully, the days are gone where a boy who was raped by a priest would be castrated to cure his homosexuality.
Women are the largest group of vulnerable people, but it isn’t just us.
The initiation rites of universities and working places have been toned down so that they are not life-threatening experiences anymore.
It boils down to establishing a culture that proclaims that it is not ok to scare or hurt people who are more vulnerable. I’ve seen change in the workplace happen around me time and time again.
I also know that there are people who oppose this change, and would reverse it all given half the chance.
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 2:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ugh, I accidentally a whole half of a sentence there. That should be “We are not even talking about
thelegitimately rage-inducing legal discrimination.”Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber
16 June 2012 at 2:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
andrewriding #305: We are Pharyngula. Prepare to be assimilated. Your concern has been noted.
NelC
16 June 2012 at 2:38 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Amaclean, you don’t get to say when other people’s anger is appropriate. Seriously, that’s the height of arrogance, and what’s more, it may surprise you to learn it doesn’t make them any less angry.
jenny6833a
16 June 2012 at 2:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This a very good post, especially the first paragraph. Well, the first paragraph would be especially good if the first sentence were corrected to say the opposite of what it does. I’ve never suggested that women should cover themselves to try to prevent attacks.(Why can’t people who want to argue jump on things I’ve actually said? Why do they have to make stuff up?)
As a nudist who has traveled widely, I’m well aware that there’s an inverse correlation between how much skin people (especialy women) are allowed to show and the incidence of rape: more skin, less rape. In France, for example, all beaches are topfree and there’s a beach for full nudity every 20 miles or so. I can tell you that the behavior is far far better on nude beaches in France than on conventionally clothed beaches here and also somewhat better than on clothing-optional beaches here.
Full nudity of a non-sexual nature is common on French TV including during the French dinner hour when the kiddies are watching along with the rest of the family. And, at least among the native French, the incidence of rape and other sexual assault is lower than here.
So, I’ll offer a way to significantly reduce rape in these assorted and somewhat amalgamated states: change the law in every state to be like Oregon’s ORS 163.465 which does not criminalize mere, simple (meaning non-sexual) nudity.
LOL. That’ll be the day! In the USA, we want to keep our Victorian morals, our high crime rate, and our full prisons.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 2:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
That’s the funny thing, amaclean. The sad, funny thing. Living in fear of rape? Taking “reasonable precautions” like “don’t be in public places alone, don’t dress like that, don’t engage in social activities, make sure you don’t always take the same route home, make sure you bring a knife, make sure you have a big dog and if you can’t maybe you should just stay at home”? It is infringing on our freedom to live a full life.
I lol’d.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 2:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*deep breath*
Okay, here’s the deal. You may be saying, “I would never tell a rape victim, ‘well, if only you had []‘”, but you are in fact currently telling rape victims “well, if only you had []” with your unspecified “reasonable precautions” flappings. Whatever you mean to be saying, that is in fact what you are saying. This explains why so many rape survivors are so very unhappy with you. If this isn’t what you mean to be doing, you need to reconsider your approach.
FossilFishy (TMI? That's not TMI, *THIS* is TMI.)
16 June 2012 at 2:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And there’s your problem. You seem incapable of grasping that the anger that’s being directed at you is appropriate. You’re so caught up in desperately trying to justify what you think that you’ve close yourself to any understanding of why other people think differently.
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber
16 June 2012 at 2:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean #309: and then your kids will try to measure up to your “precautions” and blame themselves if they do get raped anyway.
The only thing that causes rape is the presence of a rapist. =/
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 2:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Except when you came into this thread and did that.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 2:50 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@FossilFishy
Phil Ochs covered it nicely http://youtu.be/u52Oz-54VYw
@amaclean
Vitriol is positive reinforcement. “positive”, in this context does not mean “nice”. It means introducing a stimulus as opposed to removing it. Negative reinforcement would be not responding at all when you make ignorant, hurtful, and rape-culture-reinforcing statements. If you’re going to cite Skinner you’d do well to educate yourself.
McCthulhu has never been serious...ever! (*)^_^
16 June 2012 at 2:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Nepenthe @281:
Doberman pinschers.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 2:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I did make a mistake when I said “negative” reinforcement earlier, I realized that after I said that. But Skinner clearly showed that “vitriol” is less effective than techniques that do not induce resentment (whether positive or negative).
McCthulhu has never been serious...ever! (*)^_^
16 June 2012 at 2:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
NelC @282:
I see what you did there. Well done.
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 3:00 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And lest I be merely raging, amaclean, here are some useful things you might teach your children.
1) Their bodies are their own and they don’t have to allow anyone to touch them for any reason if they don’t want to.
2) They are valuable people and don’t need anyone’s approval to retain that status, not even if that person claims to love them.
3) A romantic relationship is not necessary to be happy, to be a “complete person”, or any other bullshit generally sold about them. They are complete, whole, worthwhile people regardless of relationship status.
4) Relationship abusers are not creative, though they can be difficult to spot initially. They all pretty much do the same shit. Teach them what an abusive relationship looks like and what healthy ones look like. Television and movies give many excellent examples of abusive relationships, often in the guise of “romance”.
5) Abusers do not change and they do not love you, regardless of the stupid lies they tell. One should endeavor to extricate one’s self from an abusive relationship as soon as it is safe to do so.
These are the things that, had I learned them beforehand, might have helped me avoid that predator. Note how none of these “tips” involve what to wear, where to go, or how to act.
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 3:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@321
Wait… alive or dead? A living doberman suit seems hazardous and cruel. Dead seems tacky and ineffective.
*sigh* What’s a body to do.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Christ what an asshole
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And we are telling you that this is exactly what you have done. That you do not see this is worrying.
You clearly see this as ‘I was making a common-sense point about being cautious’ not realising that this is a common derailing tactic, a slippery-slope blame-shifting argument that undermines the case against the perpetrator. It’s the kind of thing that is seized upon and built upon by rape apologists, which is why we do not want to se it here, either in its pure form or the lesser form in which you couch it.
Just don’t go there. You have now been warned about this and had it explained to you. If you do it again you will be piled on and given a thorough tongue-lashing.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*covers her face and sighs*
amaclean, I don’t know what to do with the fact that you are spending more time on how rape survivors should be dealing with people who inappropriately assign blame than on how rape survivors are being impacted by those who inappropriately assign blame.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Nepenthe: I really like those suggestions, actually, and you’re right — they are more constructive than telling people where not to go. They would definitely be things I would want to instill in people I care for. Just curious, does anyone think those suggestions are offensive?
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
How is telling people they aren’t despicable being an asshole?
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@Amaclean
You are a fucking terrible human being. Please trade yourself in at the front office to free up space in the que for someone who isn’t a failure
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 3:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Encouraging people to continue spewing harmful shit is being an asshole
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Because they are. So are you.
Your apology is shit
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Am I comparable to Hitler yet? Or am I at more of a Pol Pot level? I do somewhat idolize Dexter, I admit.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fuck off.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Rewarding the behaviour of assholes with compliments could be viewed as assholeish.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:18 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well, when you tell someone you have never met that they’re despicable, then what the hell sort of answer do you expect? “Why really, oh, thank you for telling me.”
McCthulhu has never been serious...ever! (*)^_^
16 June 2012 at 3:19 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
…nudging an extra ‘u’ and ‘e’ from the Scrabble set discreetly under the table towards Ing…
andrewriding
16 June 2012 at 3:19 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well ok, but I still have assimilation virginity. Be gentle~
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What?
I’ve met you enough to make the judgement. DOY
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 3:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I expect you to take a hard fucking look at yourself and figure out why people might think that about you.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Some of this has been covered, but hey, how do those timezones work?
291 amaclean
You heard her! We should all jump on what she is saying ALL THE TIME! Amaclean, you blew it big time. If that is negative of me, good!
293 amaclean
Glad I got that information before it was too late. Why, I might have been really really angry about something where I should just realize the other person isn’t evil, no matter what shit xe is uttering.
311 amaclean
No matter how much they ask me to stop doing that or how pointless my actions are.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Don’t be absurd. We are placing you as someone who contributes in his own special way to rape culture by misdirecting attention to what the victims’ actions were rather than the perpetrator’s.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness
16 June 2012 at 3:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean #293
Holy fucking shit. That really does show all we need to know. There is just so much wrong here.
You really truly are part of the problem. You’ve now shat on rape victims and gay people. Here, we do in fact call that opinion of “just give them civil unions!” evil. It is evil.
I get that you equate what we’re saying with your father’s abuse and cling to the idea that rage doesn’t change minds. I’m sorry for what you went through. However, you are quite honestly, unequivocally wrong.
As one of the rape victims you’ve been blaming, I do not in any way shape or form accept that not-apology.
*sigh* Godfuckingdamnit. I give up. I can’t even muster up more vileness. It’s so hard being beat down constantly even by people who claim to be helping.
Nepenthe
16 June 2012 at 3:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Critical addendum to 324:
6) Anyone can end up in an abusive relationship and it doesn’t mean that they are not strong, or empowered, or worldly or whatever. It means that they were caught by a predator and it isn’t their fault, either for getting caught in the first place or not leaving “sooner”. 1-5 only help with the obvious ones and they are not all obvious.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*raises her eyebrows*
Is this an example of positive reinforcement in action? Given how much more effect you think it is than other methods of persuasion?
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh yeah I was so wrong about you not being repulsive.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Just curious, if this is the reception I get for saying it doesn’t hurt to take certain precautions, what happens to people who actually ARE rapists? Or who say they think women deserve to be put in their place?
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Seriously? In context you think this is appropriate? you think this is clever and cute? Why doesn’t your face try to assimilate a cinder block? It needs the intelligence boost
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I don’t expect an answer at all. I expect you to look into your heart and ask: ‘What have I done to deserve this?’ And if you find fault there, particularly after others have pointed it out at length, then I expect you to modify your behaviour and views.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Working my way through this part of the list. Nearly done.
Horace from link at 32
Because girls, he is a great big manly man and utterly incapable of differentiating a “no thanks, dude” from an offer to engage in combat and therefore will immediately “fight” you the way he fights other men, by raping you. Why can’t the womenz understand this??
But grabbing and not letting go is not provocation. Oh you dumb womenz!
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:25 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Er . . . you know . . . making light of your metaphorical virginity in a topic about rape is . . . uh . . . really not something I would advise . . .
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Mills thing at who cares, really?
Certainly many women chose their fathers very badly. And then the uncles, too. shakes head sadly
McCthulhu has never been serious...ever! (*)^_^
16 June 2012 at 3:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ing @340:
I didn’t want to impede the richly deserved whacking of amaclean, the piñata.
Just a mumble that the word that sounds like ‘cue’, meaning line-up, is spelled with an extra u and e…queue.
Apologies for pedanting the thread.
"We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective"
16 June 2012 at 3:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness
16 June 2012 at 3:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ing, I fucking love you. Thank you.
I’m going to go curl up in a ball and cry myself asleep tonight. I just can’t do anything else right now.
This will certainly teach me for trying to nicer and have hope. It fucking hurts. I wish amaclean would’ve stayed gone.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’d rather hope they be caught, convicted and put in jail for a very long time.
But that conclusion is less likely where there are folks around giving them cover by suggesting the victim did not do enough to prevent the crime.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
If I were at all told I were a bad person in real life, yes, I would take a look at it. But this teh internetz. A lot of important aspects are missing from this communication, and the opinions on this board are very particular, and very set in one direction. I’m sure if I went to the “world is flat” board, and posted my opinions there, I would be called an ignorant idiot. Wouldn’t take it to heart though. I do hold Pharyngula above that, of course, but nevertheless unless I’m hearing this from more than one source (or from a source who knows ME, like a husband or parent), then I see no reason to let it bother me.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jenny6833a #178
There I quoted you. And yet you are still wrong. If victims are NOT to blame, then how can their behaviour affect the outcome?
#191
Clearly you don’t understand odds. These people have had it happen to them, so the odds are 100%, which unfortunately is now unchangable.
#267
Because it involves me being wrong and at the mercy of reality like everyone else and hey bubba? I’m SPECIAL!!
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes, if this is how we treat people who send rape survivors to bed crying, however will we treat people who harm women?
Wait . . .
McCthulhu has never been serious...ever! (*)^_^
16 June 2012 at 3:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Erista @352:
I know, right? I don’t have a face or a palm large enough to equal the tastelessness.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:31 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Andrew, think long and hard about the context of the thread in which you said this, and then do the wise thing of resolving never to say this again.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So I am the equivalent of a rapist because I accompany my friends back from parties late at night. And I harm women because I state that I do so. Got it.
andrewriding
16 June 2012 at 3:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@amaclean #322
In this thread I’ve been going for a bit of a “don’t cause resentment approach” myself (and probably with feminism in general but it’s too late to psychoanalyze myself properly,) but I’ve been very careful to avoid one thing: telling anyone here that they should do the same.
Social change needs vitriol. My studies are far from comprehensive but there’s an extremely obvious pattern where these movements accomplish jack squat for as long as people are willing to keep their voices down and not upset anyone.
This kind of telling people not to get angry or respond harshly attitude- well you see it everywhere. I doubt there’s anyone here who has heard that sentiment less than a dozen times. You’ve got to really close your ears to keep from hearing why people here don’t come around to that way of thinking- so have you not been paying attention for very long or are you good at going deaf when it strikes your fancy?
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean, did you miss post 356, or do you just not care?
I ask in all seriousness. Because it seems to me that you’re so intent on insisting that you haven’t done anything wrong in this thread that you are completely ignoring the actual impact you are having on real live rape survivors. And if you are doing that because you don’t care, then, well . . . I guess you’re the kind of person where nothing I say to you is going to make an impact on you, so I guess I’ll just leave it at that.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Anger and vitriol has its place. Personally, I support the Martin Luther King style of statement and protest. When wrongs are being committed, sometimes letting the ridiculousness and horror of those wrongs stand for themselves is effective. His march was still provocative, certainly, but it wasn’t harsh.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@ amaclean #
Got it, do you? I wish.
How about reading what the actual real life even though they are in the internet people have said about being raped. Can you hear them?
And my apology to the men who were strong enough to come forward about their own rapes. I have been posting as if only women were raped, and that was thoughtless and wrong of me. I will try to do better.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 3:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Diversityn of tactics is a good thing, and there are plenty of place you can go to get “nice” answers to stupid questions. Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement wouldn’t have had nearly the success they did were it not for Malcolm X and the Black Power crowd scaring the shit out of whitey.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And again, you fail.
You are in conversation with actual rape victims who have been trying to tell you something and instead of thoughtful introspection and maybe a change of heart, you give off a dismissal, now giving the reason that (I paraphrase) ‘they don’t know the real me’.
You lack of empathy saddens me. Apparently this is all academic to you. The people on this thread just faceless internet nobodies. Their rape stories mean nothing. You believe your words have no consequences, the triggers they pull are harmless.
I truly hope that one day you will wake up and realise what a thoughtless toad you have been.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Who will give amaclean the link to MLKs letter on this subject?
I swear I will copy it and store if for later use.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I honestly did miss that, I just saw the quoting of someone else so did not really read. I am very sorry if I am the cause of that hurt. Again, I do not nor should anyone ever, ever blame the victim or insinuate that it’s their fault. I’m sorry it came across that way. Didn’t mean it to, and tried to explain that I did not mean it to. Maybe it’s the tone of this fucking thread.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 3:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hah, I typed my last post before amaclean brought up King, I swear. The march on Washington by the was given approval by the establishment with the condition that he take it over from the scary radicals who organized it in the first place. MLK deserves zero credit for that particular action, if anything he diluted it’s meaning.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*sigh*
Have you read Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail? That man did not pull his punches.
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m going to stop before I say something I’ll regret. Rape victims, I’m sorry if I triggered something. Honestly. Please don’t cry. I would give you a hug if I could.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Don’t be obtuse. And spare us the self-pity and white knighting.
We have stated that you are a contributor to rape culture by reinforcing attitudes about women’s behaviour. No, this does not make you Hitler, or Pol Pot or any other false equivalence. It certainly does not make you a rapist.
However, it *does* mean you are not the virtuous person you think you are and we are trying, clearly with little success, to pound that into your brain. And we are using harsh words because of a belief that you would be equally obtuse if we used kind ones.
This is the kind of thing where you need to go away, synthesize all that’s been said here, and reach the ashamed conclusion that you are not the man you see yourself to be. If you glean any wisdom from this punishing encounter I hope that you will vow to live your life differently, starting with ‘not-contributing-even-indirectly-to-a-victim-blaming-culture’.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 3:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fuck you.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
borked the link. you will have to cut and paste amaclean.
ibbica
16 June 2012 at 3:49 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I think most posters have it covered here. I’m certainly thankful for all those who are taking the time and using their energy to fight against imbeciles. I… can’t, so I’ll restrict myself to pedantry and academia here.
Ahem.
amaclean:
You have an overly simple view of behavoural modification techniques. No, neither Skinner nor any of his successors ever showed that ‘vitriol’ is always less effective than ‘techniques that do not induce resentment’. Such conclusions are heavily dependent on context and the specific desired behavioural outcome.
“Reinforcement”, whether positive reinforcement (giving a reward) or negative reinforcement (removing an ongoing unpleasant stimulus) only works if you actually perform a desired behaviour.
If a desired (or ‘alternative to undesired’) behaviour is not performed, the only option available is “punishment”. That can be positive punishment, i.e. administering a negative consequence to a given action, or negative punishment, i.e. removing or withholding a reward.
NB: I am speaking of ‘voluntary’ behaviours here. That’s important. Keep that in mind, or you’ll get terribly confused and start spouting all sorts of nonsense.
Now, in encouraging the performance of a specific voluntary behaviour or behavioural sequence, yes a combination of ‘positive reinforcement’ (of desired behaviour) and ‘negative punishment’ (withholding reward for undesired behaviour) is indeed the most effective method.
HOWEVER, “encouraging the performance of a specific behaviour” is NOT the same as “preventing an unwanted voluntary behaviour”.
Strong positive punishment (i.e. administering a punishment) is indeed VERY effective in preventing specific unwanted voluntary behaviours from recurring. In the absence of the exhibition of alternate (desired) behaviours, it is in fact the ONLY way to prevent recurrence of voluntary behaviours that are inherently rewarding in and of themselves. Ignoring unwanted behaviour – withholding reward – ONLY works when the behaviour is not rewarding in and of itself. Negative punishment can NEVER override rewarding of a behaviour, regardless of where that reward comes from.
That is why ‘just ignore the trolls’ doesn’t work. And that is why ‘just ignore the racism/sexism/misogyny/rape-culture/current-societal-norms-that-oppress-people’… DOES. NOT. WORK.
Incidentally, by chiding posters here about their tone you’re also using ‘positive punishment’. So… “setting an example” fail :( And unfortunately for you, you’re just not in a position for the ‘punishment’ you’re doling out to have any real effect, except on those who have already been victimized. I have to think by your responses that you really don’t realize the pain you’re causing in this thread.
That you refuse to see past the profanity and righteous anger of the posters here to deal with the heart of the matter is a failing on your part, not theirs.
Of course all this behaviourist stuff is great, but humans have a shortcut: language. We can explain to each other what behaviour we want to see! Fantastic, no? Let’s try it:
Stop posting. That should at least get you a good dose of negative reinforcement.
Post a blanket apology, without making excuses. Use one short sentence to say what exactly you’re apologizing for. Look up ‘notpology’ or ‘nonpology’ if you’re unclear on what NOT to do. Hey, look, more negative reinforcement! Might even get you some positive reinforcement if people are feeling generous.
(Sorry for length. My posting style varies with my mood from ‘laid-back-lurking’ to ‘irritated kinda wordy quip’ to ‘outraged pedantic’. Determining which mood I’m currently in is left as an exercise for the reader.)
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:49 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oooo! It worked!
amaclean
16 June 2012 at 3:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fuck you too, Cipher. Look, you can’t expect someone to be nice when you’re being a complete fucking bitch to them. Fuck Pharyngula, this site has been ridiculously politically correct for a while, and disgustingly self-righteous. If the little things I said really are that terrible, what the hell do you people do in the real world, let alone the rest of the internet. Live in your damn bubble and bitch at internet posters if it makes you feel better, but it’s not going to do anything but inspire anger. Why don’t you go join WEAVE or something, or actually make a difference instead of standing in your goddamn ivory tower judging everyone else and telling them how terrible they are for not agreeing with you. You don’t know me, you do not have the right.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 3:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m tired. It’s late. But I need to say this:
You are not the one who gets to decide if you are blaming the victim or insinuating that it is their fault. The victims are the ones who get to decide this. Whether or not you mean to is not the issue. What effect you are actually having is dictated by those who you are impacting, and those people have not been silent about your influence.
You will do with this whatever you want. I am just a voice on the internet, and I am not even the most moving of the voices that have spoken to you. But I hope that when you step away from the computer, when you have time to think and feel and process, you will really take to heart the effect your actions are having on other people, and if you have good intentions, you will work to make your intentions match your effects. Because right now the effects you are having are decisively negative.
*puts her head in her hands and sighs*
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 3:54 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh gosh. She told us to weave.
I hope the stinging she feels will help her to assess her own behaviour.
Hope you click the link amaclean. MLK was your example.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 3:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Good idea.
Please think about the context of this discussion. You’ve triggered responses in rape victims. Should you really be offering physical contact?
It’s this sort of cluelessness we have been pounding you on.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 4:00 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Protip: “Bitch” is a dehumanizing misogynist hate word.
Nice to see your true colors though. Do try to stick the flounce next time and don’t forget your putrescent porcupine.
Erista (aka Eris)
16 June 2012 at 4:00 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Okay, amaclean, I want you to consider for a moment how you are feeling. How angry, how defensive, how aggressive. I want you to consider how you have lashed out at people on the internet who have said things to you that you consider to be cruel.
And I want you to consider how rape survivors must feel, because they not only deal with words on the internet, they deal with being triggered with their sexual trauma. If people being “mean” to you on the internet can make you react this way, perhaps you can try to understand why rape survivors might react so negatively to what you have said to them. Because they have endured far more than you have.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 4:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Aaaaad, you’ve lost it.
We don’t want you to be nice, we want you to stop participating in victim-blaming culture.
Ah, the word ‘politically correct’. Someone who trots that out reveals their colours.
And here we have the problem in a nutshell. Belief that one form of casual low-grade sexism is acceptable speech, while not realising that it is, like the snowflake that adds to the avalanche, a part of the problem.
Maybe part of the solution is to get on board and realise that attitudes and cultures are not immutable and can be changed if we can get a critical mass simply changing their behaviour. You are in a position to help on this but choose not to, apparently not because it is hard but because you don’t see it is necessary.
Actually we know enough about you to call you on it. Now, kindly go away and reflect on what has been said here. I hope you reach the conclusion that you are part of the problem and resolve to do better.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 4:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You haven’t shown much knowledge about pharygulites yourself, but apparently you can comment on any of us or all.
Erista (aka Eris) put it clearly, kindly and well.
Do try the link and do think about what xe said. How could it hurt?
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 4:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Did you really, actually just call me a bitch?
Actually, it’s been a while!
I don’t give two microfucks for nice. I want you to stop being a harmful asshole to trauma victims, and I want you to stop trying to tell us how it is appropriate to react.
How sad. You think “politically correct” is a real thing.
As for our self-righteousness, I’ll go ahead and say this: I don’t mind being “self-righteous” when the question is my fucking bodily autonomy.
Do you want the honest answer to that question, or would it interrupt your misguided little tirade?
My goddamn fucking ivory tower? You pathetic little puddle of slime, have you been fucking reading this thread? I am, without a single fucking shred of doubt, more experienced, more scarred, more actively involved in this issue than you could possibly hope to be. So are numerous other posters on this thread, but you made the mistake of aiming your little tantrum at me. All right. You want to know about my fucking ivory tower?
My ivory tower is the bedroom I live locked in because my second rapist and abuser, whom I lived with for almost a year, made me afraid of being in open spaces.
My ivory tower is, every time I leave, having to worry about when the next flashback will happen, when the next panic attack is coming, when the startle reaction will really hurt someone. My ivory tower is spending my life putting just enough pieces of myself together to make it through a day, and sometimes waking up not knowing who I am because my sense of self has been shattered. My ivory tower is knowing that I have been forced away from everyone I loved because I can’t bear to inflict the pain of knowing on them. My ivory tower is knowing that some of those people wouldn’t believe me even if I told them. My ivory tower is knowing that I can’t tell my family what happened to me, because even after everything my first rapist did to me, I still don’t want him to turn up dead somewhere. Here’s what he did to me, by the way:
Yeah. I sure as shit shouldn’t judge you from the lofty heights of my fucking ivory tower, because it’s not like I know anything about your life. Gee, I must have made you feel just terrible, saying that you were being a callous asshole. I’m so broken up about how fucking judged you feel. Poor baby.
Get the fuck out of here.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 4:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
You are truly awesome. Thank you again for being prepared to speak about your life. It reminds me that I have been one lucky woman and that there are women all around me who are unbelievably brave and strong, carrying on with life as best they can.
amaclean, I think she called it. Fuck off.
Susannah
16 June 2012 at 4:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m old. My own experiences of rape are far in the past. And it took years, but I finally learned one lesson; it never was my fault.
Since then, I’ve talked with many people, friends and family, including my own kids, and the one thing I always end up saying, over and over is, “It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It never was your fault. It’s not your fault.”
It has to be repeated so many times, because every single one of those rape and abuse victims blame themselves first. And so I say, again, “It’s not your fault.”
And then someone comes along and says, “But you should have …, you shouldn’t have …” In other words, “It is your fault.”
And that’s a miserable, cruel lie.
Jafafa Hots
16 June 2012 at 4:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yeah. That’s why they didn’t kill him or anything. They thought it was polite.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 4:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I believe what we have here in amaclean is someone who believes he is virtuous, an ally of women, a self-identified ‘good guy’. (I’m making the assumption that this is a man.) We also have a guy who is new to the arguments, untutored and way out of his depth. (Which to be fair I was at one time in my life.)
He has a lot of unexamined privilege, and it will take a long time and many long arguments before he begins to understand what privilege is and that he is, indeed, a beneficiary of it. And like anyone coming to these arguments fresh he has a lot of naive opinions that he feels he has to share with us, not realising that not only have they been heard before, but that some of them are actively distasteful and will trigger a strong reaction.
His response to us has been a mixture of bewilderment and attempts to assert his own dignity and a measure of control. As we can smell blood when he does this it only encourages us to pile in more. A sensible strategy would have been to withdraw and read and comprehend what was being said.
The best response from this is if he goes away, calms down, does some reading and comes to the self-realisation that he is not the virtuous soul he reckons himself to be. We can only hope he goes this route. Otherwise, it will be the comfort of MRA forums for this fellow, where he can show his battle-scars from run-ins with radical man-hating feminists and damn us all for our wicked political correctness.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 4:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
392 leebrimmicombe-wood
Good point about gender. I assumed woman. Please read all prior remarks adjusted to be politically correct.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 4:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I could be wrong, but his statements build a picture of a man.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 4:39 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m pretty sure amaclean identified herself as a young woman.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 4:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
dysomniak
That’s how I remember it, but I’m not sure.
dysomniak
16 June 2012 at 4:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Given the last comment of course I’m not ruling out MRA troll.
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy
16 June 2012 at 4:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
She did. Teenager. Which, you know. I was an asshole too when I was her age.
*hugs to Lyn M* Thanks.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 4:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
In which case I apologise for the misattribution and any errors that ensued.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
16 June 2012 at 4:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Geeze yeah, that sympathy I had for a short while? Totally flushed down the toilet.
For fuck sake, your pwecious little fee-fees about people being meeeeean to you on the interwebz are worth less than five tenths of a percent of fuck all in comparison to the feelings of the actual rape victims. Rape victims who have, despite their trauma, done their level best to educate you while you continue, over and over, to blame them for their trauma. If you really are a teenage girl and not a fucking liar, then I do still retain enough sympathy for your idiotic and willful naivete to hope that you never need to learn the lesson in person.
leebrimmicombe-wood
16 June 2012 at 4:49 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
That’s egg on my face, then. The Japanese have a word for this: ‘Jibaku’, which originally meant ‘suicide by hand grenade’ and now means ‘ I embarrassed myself’.
In which case I ‘fess up and admit that some of what I have said about her is in error and should be discounted. Apologies for the misattribution. I resolve to do better and pay closer attention in future.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 4:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Cipher, thank you. Your internet hugs are something to treasure.
I hope you partake from time to time as your USB port is about to fill with Mumms. (Unless you turn it off, of course.)
echidna
16 June 2012 at 4:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Cipher, that was really powerful, and revealing. The bit that got me was his question “That was rape?” – it instantiates that comment near the start of the thread where somebody said that our culture has a meme that women would really enjoy rape anyway.
amaclean:
It’s about power, and you concede a lot when you acquiesce to authority for the sake of harmony.
What do I do in real life? I don’t take nonsense from anybody. Can I take a (misogynistic) joke? No, not even from the CEO. I don’t care how minor the infraction is. I’m lucky that I have enough privilege of various types to be able to make that work. And my prickliness in this regard, I have been informed, has protected and encouraged other women and made for a safer workplace. Even guys have come up to me and commented on the change in atmosphere for the better where they had thought that having a woman around would ruin everything.
But I have professional privilege that not everybody has. It is important for those who have any sort of privilege at all to be loud and clear that abuse of power, such as you have read about in these comments from Cipher and others, is wrong.
Island Adolescent
16 June 2012 at 4:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I really hope amaclean can look back at this exchange in the near future and realize what a complete fucking pile of scum she was. When I was a young teenager I was in a similar boat of being a part of rape culture and at times being misogynistic without realizing it. I never got into a discussion/debate about it with anybody who actually comprehended and understood feminism properly(which is unfortunate), but I did slowly start to transition out of being a fuckwad as I read more about feminism and became more attentive of society and in general gained more experience as I developed as a person.
But despite slowly learning and growing, there was a huge nearly instantaneous transition when you realize, “Wow, I was such a fucking pile of shit – how could I have possibly thought such things?” And while I still hate to think about it and really wish I wasn’t so damn fucked up in my younger days, accepting that indeed, I was a horrible person, is a crucial step that IMO takes away nearly all the obtuseness amaclean is displaying now.
I probably made every apologist argument on feminism related issues when I was younger, but people definitely do change when exposed to reasoning and explanation. It just sometimes takes long periods of mulling over until the (sometimes instantaneous) transition takes place where one realizes how fucked up they were.
And thanks to everybody here who takes the time and effort to reiterate these issues. I only started reading Pharyngula (and the comments within which I find invaluable) about 3 years ago, but I wish I had started much earlier.
NuMad
16 June 2012 at 5:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
amaclean,
I find it a little unusual to follow a complaint about people’s tone with a complaint about “Political Correctness,” but I guess somehow that must make sense to you.
Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death
16 June 2012 at 5:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m fortunate too. For 25 years I worked in various courts trying to take down men who thought they could abuse their wives and kids and no one would oppose them. I understand a bit of what the spouses and kids felt because these heroes would try out the same techniques on me, without the hitting. You hit a lawyer working for the prosecution side, you are going to jail. Even with the police at the courthouse and all that privilege, there were times I felt the threat, some fear. None of the weasels who stalked me ever went beyond that, but again, lucky me.
As I got more senior and (I like to think) more skilled, I got the cases involving violence and sexual perversion and drugs. Must say, I was never bored. When a judge saw through these fellows and made a strong order, I felt great.
One day, we were finishing up a case, and in the break, a bailiff said, “hey, it’s all girls day.” I looked around the court and realised everyone working there was a woman that day, bailiffs, reporters, registrar, the judge and me. I thought, it took long enough, but the system is responding to relentless pressure. If you don’t push, you don’t get movement.
Picking where to push and what for is part of the art of living. It’s one reason to be posting here, too. Although I understand from a reliable source, begins with j and ends with enny6833a, that no one ever comes here or reads this blog. Don’t know why so many trolls show up, though.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls