Whose side is God on?

On the side of the investment bankers and plutocrats, of course!

That’s a sign that’s gone up in Minneapolis. You want healthcare? You’re going to hell, you covetous sinner. You don’t think the obscenely rich ought to keep every penny they’ve got? You’re going to hell for that, too, Communist.

I guess it should be no surprise. Since the Bible says only 144,000 will go to heaven, he’s always been on the side of the 0.002%.

Comments

  1. illuminata says

    Has anyone invovled in OWS actually said “spread the wealth around”?

    If not, didn’t god have something to say about lying too?

  2. anteprepro says

    Having more fairness in income distribution? Holding businesses accountable? Having those that can pay more, pay more? Bah, you’re all just jealous of my fabulous wealth! No need to actually listen to what you say, given that.

    Also, gotta love Biblical cherry picking .

  3. HappyHead says

    the Bible says only 144,000 will go to heaven

    Is that the number now? I recall being told as a teenager by a Jehovah’s Witness that the number was only 30,000 when they cornered me at work. (I was the cashier/attendant for a remote parking lot with mostly parkland around it. He thought I would be easy prey. I had fun with him, but they never allowed any of their other people near where I worked afterwards…)

  4. Mr. Fire says

    Somehow, according to the whoever made the ad, the rich are not covetous.

    For that brazen display of brainlessness alone do I want to force the ad-makers to eat every last square inch of that poster.

  5. EvoMonkey says

    I don’t see any “paid for” line or identifier as to which organization paid for this. Does anybody know?

  6. says

    How about that part where the rich has less of a chance of getting to heaven as a donkey can in getting through a needle hole? Or the part where Jesus distributes his wealth among his people and provided free health care? AND how about the rich coveting poor people’s money?!

    And the Christian Right wonders why it’s so out of touch with even liberal Christians, let alone non-religious people.

  7. Glen Davidson says

    Whose side is God on? On the side of the investment bankers and plutocrats, of course!

    Just sticking with his own kind, don’t you know?

    He’s a fatcat who doesn’t lift a finger to alleviate poverty or oppression (a few donations to charities as a sort of conspicuous consumption and to look good–big deal), and doesn’t see why others of his kind should either.

    Glen Davidson

  8. anteprepro says

    Illuminata:

    Has anyone invovled in OWS actually said “spread the wealth around”?

    Well, I don’t think many OWS protestors were crying out “Class warfare!” either. The people who cry that out are generally Teabaggers trying to protect their billionaire friends from paying an extra 1% on income, not people actually saying “burn the rich!” or some such. So, the billboarders either don’t care, or are doubly dishonest. Perhaps both.

    Mr. Fire:

    Somehow, according to the whoever made the ad, the rich are not covetous.

    Well, you see, coveting means wanting what someone else has. The rich don’t so much want what someone else has, as much as just wanting to have more, period. Coveting is wrong, but avarice is just fine.

  9. Reginald Selkirk says

    Has anyone invovled in OWS actually said “spread the wealth around”?

    Obama said something like that when he was talking with not-Joe the not-plumber a few years ago.

    Here’s an opinion piece by Larry Elder with the same tunnel vision as the above billboard:
    Hey, Occupy Wall Street: Wealth Isn’t a Civil Right

    It never occurs to him that information might apply to the 1% as easily as it does to OWS.

  10. Glen Davidson says

    He’s a fatcat who doesn’t lift a finger to alleviate poverty or oppression (a few donations to charities as a sort of conspicuous consumption and to look good–big deal), and doesn’t see why others of his kind should either.

    Well, god doesn’t even give donations to look good (to be fair, it’s hard to do much when you don’t exist), I thought I was parenthetically commenting on rich humans there until I read it posted.

    Glen Davidson

  11. says

    “Blessed are the poor….” Who knew that Jesus was the first to invent sarcasm. And wasn’t there something in their holy book about a camel and the eye of a needle. What about “Thou shall not lie,” and “Thou shall not steal.” Jesus never had a job. Since when is health care coveting…. (Head explodes.)

    At least Sasquatch Jesus won’t let me down.

  12. Duncan says

    Didn’t you hear?

    “It is very easy for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, but very difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.”

    Matthew 19:23-24 Nonstampcollector modern day interpreter version

  13. Mr. Fire says

    Well, you see, coveting means wanting what someone else has. The rich don’t so much want what someone else has, as much as just wanting to have more, period.

    Touché, though I shall humbly submit the movie Other People’s Money as a desperate counterpoint.

  14. says

    Count me among those who can’t help a nagging suspicion that this is a Poe. Given passages like the one cited by @7 (BTW: IIRC s/”donkey”/”camel”/), it’s hard to believe any Christian could be so irony-impaired as to post that billboard, in good faith. (Not of course, that I think the Christian Right has much in the way of that, nor that they ever read parts of the Bible they find inconvenient).

  15. EvoMonkey says

    Thou shalt not steal.
    - God (a few sentences earlier in the KJV – cuz everbody knows thems the real words of Gawd)

  16. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    We already knew that those in power use religion as a tool to make people turn against their own interests in the most callous ways. It’s nice though to have it spelled out in foot high letters for once.

  17. What a Maroon says

    “It is very easy for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, but very difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.”

    Also, “Blessed are the rich, for they shall drive in the Lexus lanes.”

    And “what does it profit a man to pay for socialized medicine, and forfeit his stock options?”

  18. Alverant says

    It’s not coveting when God WANTS you to have riches. After all, isn’t that how good loyal christians are rewarded?

    Seriously though, OWS isn’t about coveting or envy. It’s about how the powerful have changed the rules in their favor and putting the screws to everyone else.

    I have to wonder if the billboard company who put this up is the same one in Ohio that refused to erect an Atheist billboard.

  19. Ichthyic says

    I don’t see any “paid for” line or identifier as to which organization paid for this. Does anybody know?

    It shouldn’t be that hard to find out.

    PZ knows where the billboard is, and once that is known, the company that owns it shouldn’t be too hard to locate.

    A simple phone call to them should do it.

  20. Ichthyic says

    After all, isn’t that how good loyal christians are rewarded?

    I must have missed that part.

    I thought the rewards came AFTER death, and that was supposed to be the point?

    you know; wealthy zombies.

  21. anteprepro says

    “Thou must not take kindly no socialism and none of the Communism and must leave the poor to be poor, for taxing the rich is verily punishment of success and giving unto the poor will make them bloodsucking leeches and welfare queens created by Obomber’s fascist Muslim nanny state. Amen.”

    -Jesus, The Gospel According to Limbaugh.

  22. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    @Ichthyic

    Actually, it has been the staple of Calvinist ideology that God bestows wealth upon those that are chosen to be blessed by him. This idea had a large impact on European culture.

  23. Pteryxx says

    Don’t forget C’pedia’s Conservative Bible Project… rewriting all the feel-good liberal crap out of the official text of authority.

    1. Framework against Liberal Bias: providing a strong framework that enables a thought-for-thought translation without corruption by liberal bias

    2. Not Emasculated: avoiding unisex, “gender inclusive” language, and other modern emasculation of Christianity

    and…

    7. Express Free Market Parables; explaining the numerous economic parables with their full free-market meaning

  24. joelmueller says

    Looking at the skyline in the full picture, I’d say that billboard is somewhere between Washington Ave. and the Metrodome. In fact, it’s exactly this billboard located right here: http://g.co/maps/4mmjg

  25. carlie says

    I would actually put up real money to help erect a billboard right next to that one with the verse about a camel going through the eye of a needle more easily than the rich entering heaven.

  26. Reginald Selkirk says

    #16: Count me among those who can’t help a nagging suspicion that this is a Poe. Given passages like the one cited by @7 (BTW: IIRC s/”donkey”/”camel”/), it’s hard to believe any Christian could be so irony-impaired as to post that billboard, in good faith.

    Are you not familiar with “prosperity theology”?

  27. EvoMonkey says

    And God spake these words saying:

    Thou shalt not steal*.

    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house*, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

    And all the bankers saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the bankers saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

    And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, because he is restricting our profits.

    And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God also inserteth asterisks, and he saith that it is OK to induce your neighbour to covet an overpriced house with a subprime mortgage and then divide and repackage those mortgages in bonds, so that we may all profit. And he also saith something about credit default swaps and bailouts, but I haven’t figured that out yet.

  28. piranhaintheguppytank says

    Thou shalt not covet. –God

    Well, as long as we’re cherry-picking…

    Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    Matthew 19:23-24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Acts 2:44-45 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

    And then there’s this:

    [The Commandment that forbids coveting] was never intended to prevent envying another’s possessions, but rather to avoid the evil consequences of “coveting” in the magical sense. Coveting was not mentioned as an undesirable trait to be avoided because it is unethical, immoral or antisocial; it was recorded and made part of the Decalogue because the superstition prevailed in Hebrew tribal society that envious thoughts would bring ill luck and misfortune, through sorcery and witchcraft, to the person against whose property the “coveting” was directed. Covetous desires, they believed, would call into existence the malevolent spirits of the “evil eye,” which by devious and diabolical methods would cause the loss of the coveted possessions.

    –Joseph Lewis, “The Tenth Commandment”

  29. robb says

    it’s on the corner of 3rd St S and Chicago Ave in the parking lot for the Council on Crime and Justice, just a block north east from the Metrodome.

    I might drive by later and see if it is really there.

  30. carlie says

    If whoever put this one up isn’t the same group that does all of the other white text on black “blah blah stupid comment” – God billboards, then they might have a copyright infringement on their hands.

  31. hazukiazuma says

    I hope the people who put this one up own stock in a company that deals in construction machinery, because they are going to need one crane each for that pair of giant, brassy balls.

    Seriously, have you noticed the looney right wing twist and pervert everything and everyone they claim to live by and respect? The founding fathers, their favorite economic “philosophers,” and most of all Jesus. Isn’t this the same guy who said to give everything you have to the poor if you want to be perfect?

  32. Ichthyic says

    Are you not familiar with “prosperity theology”?

    you know, now might be a good time to give an educational presentation on it.

    I myself am only familiar with seeing the meme in American churches, but have never seen it spelled out specifically as an ideology or movement.

  33. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    Let’s collect and buy a billboard

    ——————————————————–

    My hovercraft is full of eels. —God

    ——————————————————–

  34. Ichthyic says

    it has been the staple of Calvinist ideology

    well that would be how I missed it then.

    Calvinists are typically so narcissistic I avoid them like the plague.

    still, which biblical tracts do they use to support this idea?

  35. Geral says

    Based on the font they used for the protestors, I’m pretty sure this is legit. Although you can just as easily put a few people in suits with a Fortune 500 company’s logo and have the EXACT same God quote.

    A couple weeks ago I was watching ‘The Help’ and after seeing the African-American church speak truth to power, I realized my favorite form of Christianity was the counter-cultural form. The form where the Bible says to help the poor, heal the sick, give away wealth, be peaceful, etc. I can sympathize with that.

    The problem is you can cherry pick quotes that defend the status quo as well. Then you throw in magical powers and, well, the message goes downhill fast.

  36. Crow says

    I think God is absolutely right on this one. Don’t covet. You should just take.

    And here’s how you do it: http://bit.ly/sRicdA

    What’s that? You don’t have $1-5 Million to invest in a hedge fund. Too bad and shut up.

    On a serious note, mention redistribution of wealth in this country and you’re labeled a communist/socialist (as if socialism is a bad thing, right?), when in actuality we do have a deeply rooted system of wealth redistribution. It’s just that it flows the wrong way.

  37. Ichthyic says

    My hovercraft is full of eels. —God

    I like it, but we’d probably have to get permission from Python Inc.

    not that someone like Cleese would object; hell I’m sure he’d love the idea.

  38. Attila says

    I keep thinking we need a a simple slogan for a tax plan. I keep thinking “1% on the 1%”. Better than anything Herman Cain came up with. Basically a 1% tax on all your wealth after the 1st million dollars. That’s proably another 100 billion to the goverment from the people who can afford to pay it.

  39. hazukiazuma says

    @37/Ichthyic

    Yeah, I still have to deal with Calvinists now and then. Check out this piece of bafflegab:

    Perhaps even more classic than the presuppositional argument is the atheist response to it. Mockery, name-calling and personal attacks on those using it. However the argument still stands because the challenge it offers is that you can’t prove anything until you justify your use of invariant abstract entities, otherwise you’re borrowing my worldview in order to disprove my worldview.

    Can you just see the fart-sniffing self-assured little prick sitting there with the corners of his mouth up around his tear ducts? News flash, presuppers: evidence from history and your very own texts proves you wrong!

  40. hazukiazuma says

    @45/ToS

    The problem with that argument is that it can work for ANY God…and also for this walnut on the table here which I presuppose is the epistemological and ontological ground of all logic. Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because etc etc etc.

  41. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    The problem with that argument is that it can work for ANY God

    That doesn’t mean that it isn’t true for Jesus Lord, though.

  42. Ichthyic says

    I’m not sure, Ichthyic I was mostly parroting Max Weber ;)

    I thought Weber’s point about the Protestant work ethic boiled down to being satisfied to be a good worker, as you are contributing to your community?

    not the same thing at all as the accumulation of wealth?

  43. lucmoreno says

    This is why rights have to be conquered through activism. I can’t believe wanting healthcare for middle class people who can’t afford transplants and other expensive treatments on their own is shown as an example of greed.

  44. lucmoreno says

    And nice example too of religion being all the same. Truly religious people have always wanted to control politics. These people are afraid of the Sharia, but they would certainly impose their own theocratic law if they had the chance.

  45. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    Ichtyic,

    I thought Weber’s point about the Protestant work ethic boiled down to being satisfied to be a good worker, as you are contributing to your community?

    My reading of his analysis are less charitable towards the protestants. He seems to have made explicit references to wealth being perceived as a sign for being “saved” or blessed by God, and thus justifying and subtly encouraging it.

  46. says

    I wish these idiots would stop uglying up my beautiful city with their odious theology. Minneapolis is a wonderful, progressive, friendly, healthy, fun and open city, and the only thing I don’t like about living here is these damn billboards that keep popping up and killing the mood.

  47. says

    @35: “you know, now might be a good time to give an educational presentation on it.”

    Here’s the gist of it:

    “If you’re faithful to God and worship and pray and send us lots of your money, God will bless you with material riches. If you’re still poor, it’s because you haven’t shown enough faith or sent us enough of your money. Proof that this works can be seen in the fact that we’re very rich ourselves and don’t mind flaunting it, so send us your money.”

    It’s the sort of thing I would never have believed until I saw it. It’s a double whammy: not only are they shamelessly hitting you up for cash, they’re doing it in the name of your greed. I can still remember the first time I watched Benny Hinn explain to viewers how sending him money planted a “seed” with God that would help them make money. I was shocked at the time. Now I’m hardened and cynical.

  48. subbie says

    Wow. All this time, I thought Gordon Gekko was saying, “Greed.. is good.” Apparently it was supposed to be, “Greed is god.” Who knew?

  49. racquett says

    The Last Decalogue
    Arthur Hugh Clough

    Thou shalt have one God only;—who
    Would be at the expense of two?
    No graven images may be
    Worshipped, except the currency:
    Swear not at all; for, for thy curse
    Thine enemy is none the worse:
    At church on Sunday to attend
    Will serve to keep the world thy friend:
    Honour thy parents; that is, all
    From whom advancement may befall:
    Thou shalt not kill; but need’st not strive
    Officiously to keep alive:
    Do not adultery commit;
    Advantage rarely comes of it:
    Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
    When ’tis so lucrative to cheat:
    Bear not false witness; let the lie
    Have time on its own wings to fly:
    Thou shalt not covet, but tradition
    Approves all forms of competition.

  50. ericpaulsen says

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of wealth,
    I will fear no taxes: For thou lobbiest for me;
    Thy bling and thy bank, they comfort me.
    Thou preparest a banquet before me in the presence of whining socialists;
    Thou suppliest my bottom line with lucre; My cup runneth over. And over. And over… – KJV

    Sure, it SOUNDS like the Ayn Rand version, but I assure you it’s not. Really.

  51. cybercmdr says

    They’ve got Fox news on where my daughter works, which is probably why when she calls she complains about the OWS movement wanting to redistribute the wealth and impose communism.

    It all adds up to that old mystery novel truism, “Follow the money”. The rich have the resources to pull the media strings.

  52. Zinc Avenger says

    Why does God need a starship billboard?

    If the Almighty has a message to send to us, you’d think he’d write it in letters of flame ten thousand feet tall, not rent ad space on a highway…

    God: Competing on an equal basis with glazing salesmen since 1954.

  53. Ichthyic says

    Here’s the gist of it:

    yeah, i get that, but I am still wondering which biblical passages are used to justify it.

    doesn’t it really boil down to just pure authoritarianism?

    there really is no church-established dogma on this point, regardless of what Calvinists say.

    seriously, I read the passages by Weber, and others, and never saw any justification for their proclamations.

  54. Tyrant of Skepsis says

    Imagine, it would say in ten thousand foot tall letters in the sky:

    TAX THE RICH! CLASS WARFARE! FREE HEALTHCARE!

    that would be kind of cool.

  55. Ben says

    @Area Man #54

    That reminds me of my favorite quote from the movie Rounders.

    “Some may say that what we’re doing is immoral, but I say it’s immoral to let a sucker keep his money.”

  56. hkdharmon says

    Not the first time I have heard this, I doubt it will be the last. I have head my boss’s wife saying the same thing, that poor people are just envious of the rich and are violating the 10th commandment.

  57. paull says

    The parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) is as blatant a one-percenter message as you’ll get in the Bible.

    14 “For the Kingdom of Heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods.

    …yadda-yadda…

    27 Thou ought therefore to have placed my money with the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with interest.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath ten talents.
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him that hath not, shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Bottom line – the Kingdom of Heaven is a hedge fund.

  58. raven says

    Does this mean the christofascist morons are going to stop coveting our sucessful secular democracy?

    Didn’t think so.

  59. bird.is.the.word says

    “But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.” Deuteronomy 8:18

    I’m not sure if God is a hedge-fund manager or a corporate lobbyist.

  60. bird.is.the.word says

    btw, that quote is one of the central backbones of prosperity theology. I was under the impression that prosperity theology had its roots in Pentecostalism.

  61. Ichthyic says

    Do you really think the poor will start starving in the street when there’s so many fat slow moving white people to eat?

    hmm.

    considering the amounts we are talking about, most of that fat is well and truly isolated from being eaten.

    it’s like watching someone who WEIGHS over a ton, walking down the street, but they LOOK like they weigh about 250.

    sure, you can chew a bit of fat off ‘em, but most of the fat is stored slightly out of phase…

    in investments, offshore banks, etc, etc, etc.

    what I’m saying is, giving the poor their “pound of flesh” ain’t gonna change anything, it’s not even a scratch to the ultra wealthy.

    and when the poor and starving realize this to be the case… do you think they will continue to choose to be even MORE poor and starving, or will they capitulate and become grudging serfs?

    sadly, I picture a return to Feudalism.

  62. says

    @Icthyic

    Even if you’re well protected it’s a bad idea to surround yourself with serfs. When things get so bad the serfs get it into their head that they don’t want to be peasants anymore and have a peasant’s revolt. And they have the advantage because though they’ll loose most of the time, they’ll still get their wish.

  63. Ichthyic says

    For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him that hath not, shall be taken away even that which he hath.

    I thought that was a parable of faith, not money?

  64. ericpaulsen says

    sadly, I picture a return to Feudalism.

    In a country as full of guns as this one? Maybe, but I am picturing a descent into violent warring factions killing off the weak after the rich have fled the country.

  65. Ichthyic says

    When things get so bad the serfs get it into their head that they don’t want to be peasants anymore and have a peasant’s revolt.

    the difference between then and now, though, is back then, the peasants could basically take the wealth for themselves from the local lord’s possessions.

    now, while they might grab a few trinkets, most of the wealth cannot be taken.

    so, the peasants revolt, the lord takes it in stride, since he knows he made sure there is no place for them to go, and simply waits for them to come back.

    the only way to fix this is:

    -eat the lord
    -create a system that will replace what the lord provided from the ground up
    -and then each person has to directly participate in maintaining it, constantly.

    this has never, ever, happened.

    what always happens is that people get a good meal for one night, and then either never bother with the rest, and a new lord just takes over. In fact, eating the lord is the LEAST important part of creating lasting change and breaking the feudal cycle.

    this is what WILL happen with the current protests, regardless of whether we’re talking the violent upheavals in the ME, or the nonviolent OWS protests. I’d bet anything on it, though I wish, as much as for anything I ever have, that this would not be so.

    I’ve said it before, and I’ll likely be saying it until I croak:

    nothing will ever change but it be from each and every one of us taking personal and CONSTANT responsibility for making it so.

    you want real change?

    -run for political office yourself
    -create or join townhall meetings to talk about your local communities needs, and promote people LOCALLY for office that you are SURE intend to meet those needs
    -Don’t just sit on your ass, thinking you are too busy to participate in your own governance, and the governance of your communities; the only reason we ever NEED leaders is to help coordinate needs across entire communities to begin with.
    -take it as a given that those who want power are not utilitarian and will act selfishly, but also that they CAN prove otherwise. real utilitarian leaders are what successful businesses of all kinds should be looking for, not just government.

    a representive democracy can work just fine as a system, provided people work at it from the ground up, instead of sitting on their asses expecting that voting every couple of years is sufficient, then blowing their tops when they inevitably discover criminals have taken over.

    I saw what happened with the protests in the 60s and 70s. I saw what happened with the Islamic Revolution.

    History shows me the rest.

    go ahead and eat the fat men. I’m sure they will be delicious.

    I’m also just as sure that unless we have a replacement in mind, and personally take responsibility for working to put it in place, water it, feed it, and care for it, we’ll end up watching more fat men walking down the street.

    I’d rather eat a salad every day, than one fat man a year.

  66. Ichthyic says

    In a country as full of guns as this one?

    irrelevant.

    would you shoot your own television set?

    teabaggers often were shown toting guns to their rallies.

    who did they think they were gonna shoot?

  67. joed says

    Ichthyic @62

    I don’t know what Weber had in mind with his essay on calvinism in his, “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”. but, I took it as a description and possibly a warning. i didn’t see where Weber tried to justify Calvinism. I don’t know why he would given the little I do know about his ideas. But then I am way behind most others in most things.

  68. Ichthyic says

    Maybe, but I am picturing a descent into violent warring factions killing off the weak after the rich have fled the country.

    a distinct possibility as well, and I also tend to think at least in part deliberately manufactured to act as a smokescreen.

    …that fat, it is an elusive fat.

    I wonder where, that fat did go…

  69. joed says

    Ichthyic @80

    If i read you right then i agree with you.
    Seems hardship and sacrifice are the dues people must pay for justice and freedom. seems folks in america are way behind in their dues.
    personally I don’t see the folks as having the understanding or the courage to pay their dues.
    ecconomic boycott is the only real means to change for the better. don’t see that happening either as hardship and sacrifice would be needed.
    here is a pbs video,
    http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org/films/index.php
    this vidi shows how real moral change was made to various societies in the 20th century.
    seems folks did as you predicted, they sat around after the change and waited for the next election.
    Most of the good changes that took place then are no longer in place.
    It’s a mess isn’t it!

  70. rachelswirsky says

    Of course, literal fatness is more correlated with poorness than richness. But don’t let that stop you.

  71. Ichthyic says

    Seems hardship and sacrifice are the dues people must pay for justice and freedom.

    well, not so much “hardship” as…

    Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty—power is ever stealing from the many to the few…. The hand entrusted with power becomes … the necessary enemy of the people. Only by continual oversight can the democrat in office be prevented from hardening into a despot: only by unintermitted Agitation can a people be kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be smothered in material prosperity.

    -WENDELL PHILLIPS, speech in Boston, Massachusetts, January 28, 1852.

    pretty much sums it up, really:

    -power corrupts
    -protest enlightens
    -eternal vigilance protects

    it sounds so simple.

    but how many of us ever really bother to participate in that eternal vigilance?

    it’s not just voting for term limits, or an oversight committee, you know.

    it’s taking the necessary time out to actually participate in your local community’s governance; to actively seek out, vet, and promote those who would act with utilitarian goals in mind, instead of goals that seem to satisfy a personal whim.

    How many of us have actually considered taking on the role of leader ourselves, given that the qualifications we apparently desire in our leaders are actually not all that common?

    Those who serve their own self interests will inevitably fill the void left by those who fail to serve others.

  72. Ichthyic says

    Of course, literal fatness is more correlated with poorness than richness. But don’t let that stop you.

    irrelevancies rarely do.

    do pipe up when you have a point, though.

  73. says

    the difference between then and now, though, is back then, the peasants could basically take the wealth for themselves from the local lord’s possessions.

    now, while they might grab a few trinkets, most of the wealth cannot be taken.

    Except that the virtual wealth has no value if the peons don’t recognize it. If things get so bad people start trading bottlecaps instead of dollars then the rich are fucked.

  74. Ichthyic says

    for those that really haven’t looked, the entire concept behind the protests going on worldwide is hardly anything new…

    “Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.”

    –Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4,1777

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

    – Edmund Burke

    “It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt.”

    – John Philpot Curran: Speech upon the Rigght of Election, 1790.

    “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    – Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759)

    “Maybe I did well and maybe I led the battle but nobody ever said we were going to win this thing at any point in time. Eternal vigilance is required and there have to be people who step up to the plate, who believe in liberty, and who are willing to fight for it.”

    – Milton Friedman

    “Those who profess to favor freedom, yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.”

    – Frederick Douglass

    “A people may prefer a free government, but if, from indolence, or carelessness, or cowardice, or want of public spirit, they are unequal to the exertions necessary for preserving it; if they will not fight for it when it is directly attacked; if they can be deluded by the artifices used to cheat them out of it; if by momentary discouragement, or temporary panic, or a fit of enthusiasm for an individual, they can be induced to lay their liberties at the feet even of a great man, or trust him with powers which enable him to subvert their institutions; in all these cases they are more or less unfit for liberty: and though it may be for their good to have had it even for a short time, they are unlikely long to enjoy it.”

    – John Stuart Mill, Representative Government, 1861

  75. Ichthyic says

    …yeah, I often think Mill could have said that last quote yesterday, instead of 150 years ago, and it would still apply perfectly.

    He and Jefferson should be required daily reading these days.

  76. Ichthyic says

    If things get so bad people start trading bottlecaps instead of dollars then the rich are fucked.

    interesting idea.

    but why bother with bottlecaps; couldn’t a large enough group simply decide their preferred monetary value of already printed money?

    I say a 10 US dollar bill is worth 10 cans of tomato sauce.

    who’s with me?

    man, this could get complicated…

    can you imagine the sub-economies that will develop?

  77. Jessa says

    Ichthyic:

    From my experience with prosperity gospel proponents, their favorite verse is Luke 6:38: : “Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Also, Malachi 3:10: “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, says the LORD Almighty, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.”

    The message they intend for you to take away is that if you give them money, you will be rewarded with riches far beyond what you originally gave. They often ask for money using phrases such as “seed gifts” to emphasize the point.

  78. Ichthyic says

    thanks muchly Jessa, that’s what I was looking for.

    you know what it also sounds like?

    the slogans one hears from pyramid schemes.

    :)

  79. patrickelliott says

    Since part of the politics of this involves the next election, and I haven’t seen a thread more appropriate yet…

    I have recently been playing Batman: Arkham Asylum (just need to defeat Joker and his goons to finish), I had this thought on the nature of our current run up to the election:

    Reporter: We are here today to talk to the candidates of the God-them (As apposed to Gotham) Republican Comity to the Election of Lunatics, about there feelings towards Two-Face (Obama), who won the last election. Lets start with you Joker.

    Joker (McCain): Well now, at first, when I lost to him I thought, ah well, the games going to be fun anyway. Only, after a while it became obvious things where just not going well. I mean, one day he is plotting with me, the next he is telling the guards where I stashed the exploding whoopee cushions. Its like he is flipping a coin or something!

    Reporter: How about you Harley?

    Harlequin (Palin): Is my pudding still unhappy with me? I think he is still made at me. I thought he would be happy that I was trying to win instead this time, but them I thought maybe that would make him mad too, but then I thought, you know, maybe it would be good if I did win…

    Reporter: Right, lets get back to you later.

    Harley: You Betcha.

    Reporter: Mr. E.

    Riddler (Herman Cain): That’s Mr. Nine. They’re nines.

    Reporter: What are nines?

    Riddler: The things on my suit. I keep telling people 999, but no one listens. They are nines.

    Reporter: Ok, so.. what is your opinion of Two-Face.

    Riddler: I will answer your question if you answer mine, “What takes a blue pill when hanging out with you in the morning, has three legs in the day, and two legs and a stub at night?”

    Reporter: I think that is seriously inappropriate, not to mention backwards, its the baby who would have the stub, and the old man that needs a blue pill. Lets stay on topic, OK.

    Riddler: Backwards, backwards! I am never backwards! I am Mr. Nine. And I don’t get what you think is so inappropriate about my riddle.

    Reporter: Moving on…

    I haven’t decided if Bachman should be a warped Poison Ivy, who hates the environment instead (Palin could have worked too, with “Drill Baby Drill”, but I needed her to be Harley lol), or some twisted version of Catwoman, never mind the rest of the insane clown posse. All I do know is, we are all wondering why Batman hasn’t shown up to put them all back in their cells.

  80. Ichthyic says

    I think you’ve got something workable as satire there, Patrick, at least for the 2000 election if not this one.

    “The entire global economic system is collapsing”

    I guess it depends on how exactly one defines “global economic system”.

    would the dissolution of the EU qualify as having “collapsed the global economic system?”

    because I’m starting to see talk of it, though talk is all it is at this point.

    even so, say it DID go… what would that mean, exactly, wrt the “global economic system”?

    seems a bit undefined to my mind, but then that IS on Worldnut Daily, right?

  81. Jessa says

    Ichthyic:

    thanks muchly Jessa, that’s what I was looking for.

    No problem. I am deeply familiar with prosperity gospel teachings from a family tragedy. One of my great aunts was taken in by it. She drained her bank accounts and maxed out her credit cards giving to those charlatans. After she died, her children found out that she had given US$250,000 to her favorite ministry during the last five years of her life.

  82. Ichthyic says

    After she died, her children found out that she had given US$250,000 to her favorite ministry during the last five years of her life.

    not uncommon, sadly, but still…

    ouch.

  83. patrickelliott says

    I think you’ve got something workable as satire there, Patrick, at least for the 2000 election if not this one.

    Think its perfectly fine for the current one, after all, Herman Cain wasn’t around in the last one, and Palin wouldn’t be needing to be worried that “puddin is mad at me”, or trying to run for, but not, but maybe, but not really, the Presidency herself, if it was 2000. lol The problem is just trying to work out what the rest of the bozos would be, in terms of Batman villains. ;)

  84. Jessa says

    not uncommon, sadly, but still…

    ouch.

    Yeah. There’s an even more infuriating aspect to the story, but it’s bedtime for me and I don’t want to derail the thread.

  85. jamessweet says

    Holy shit. I mean, holy motherfucking shit. Really?!? It’s the poor who are guilty of “thou shalt not covet”, not the ultra-rich?!

    Apparently, it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a Christian to actually read and comprehend the fucking Bible. Of all the awful things in that ancient tome, “Fuck the poor” is about the only oppressive authoritarian bullshit it manages to avoid.

  86. Ichthyic says

    “Fuck the poor” is about the only oppressive authoritarian bullshit it manages to avoid.

    yeah, that interpretation came a bit later; see “prosperity gospel” related discussion upthread.

  87. John Morales says

    jamessweet,

    Of all the awful things in that ancient tome, “Fuck the poor” is about the only oppressive authoritarian bullshit it manages to avoid.

    Nah.

    As usual, the Babble is contradictory on that: cf John 12:8.

  88. Ariaflame says

    It’s always puzzled me, if they think that the number of people who get in to heaven is limited, then why are they proselytizing? Surely that’s increasing the competition for one of the places? Or perhaps they think it’s like one of those pyramid schemes, those who bring more in get a better chance, stuff the ones in the layer under you?

  89. Ichthyic says

    perhaps they think it’s like one of those pyramid schemes

    that’s it, exactly.

    evangelism in a nutshell.

  90. Glen Davidson says

    It may be worth mentioning that they’re probably about right about the meaning of the commandment–of course you weren’t supposed to covet the rich priests’ things, how could you even think that?

    Indeed, the commandment states that you’re not to covet your neighbor’s man-slaves and woman-slaves. Because that’s just wrong, go enslave your own hapless drudges, you lazy bum.

  91. Aquaria says

    Free health care? How is it free if people are paying taxes to get health care?

    Stupid fucking christards.

  92. Ichthyic says

    Because then it wouldn’t be a Fallout reference.

    true dat.

    totally OT, but I still play the original every couple of years.

  93. Ichthyic says

    you know at first glance, I thought the sign said:

    Thou shalt not covet God.

    which I thought was good advice.

    ….

    Ok, so, I’m lying, I didn’t really think it said that.

    but still good advice.

  94. StevoR says

    @ boto : 30 November 2011 at 9:23 pm

    “Sorry to hijack this thread, but this poll could use a little help from the rational community:”

    Done. Latest figures :

    No — their benefits are unclear and risks are real. Stressing Pap smears would be dramatically more effective. 10.89%

    Yes — all in all, it’s a small price to pay for some protection against cervical cancer. 89.11%

    That billboard .. yeesh. What can I say? Hmm .. think I’ll let Stephen Franklin from Babylon-5 say it for me :

    “May God save us from false religion.” (‘Believers’ episode.)

    And from his / her /its /their own followers. Ye-non-existent gods. Yuck. How messed up that sort of sign and attitude is.

    That’s the second worst class warfare thing that I’ve seen today after this item :

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-01/jeremy-clarkson-says-uk-strikers-should-be-shot/3706152?section=world

    although I think Jeremy Clarkson must be a Poe. All an act and unfunny joke being so deliberately offensive for the lolz surely?

  95. John Morales says

    [meta]

    jo1storm, you’re off-topic*, and TET is never full.

    (What part of ‘endless’ is confusing to you?)

    * Also, you’re very easily impressed.

  96. KG says

    Gerald Celente talks to Lew Rockwell about his top trend forecast for 2012. – joed

    Why would anyone rational be interested in what a glibertarian babbler says?

  97. KG says

    Again they ignore that “Class War Fare” is the result you’ll get if you don’t stop coddling the rich. – Ing

    It was the rich who declared class war this time, around three-four decades ago. So far, they’re winning.

  98. sawells says

    How about some billboards saying “Go, sell everything you have and give it to the poor — God”.

  99. Aquaria says

    Perhaps even more classic than the presuppositional argument is the atheist response to it. Mockery, name-calling and personal attacks on those using it. However the argument still stands because the challenge it offers is that you can’t prove anything until you justify your use of invariant abstract entities, otherwise you’re borrowing my worldview in order to disprove my worldview.

    Sounds so much like heddle that it’s funny.

  100. says

    Spread the wealth is a sin now? Not according to Jesus. Matthew 19:21 – “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, chase Me.”

    Don’t these idiots know there own holey babble?

  101. DLC says

    John answered : if you have two shirts and another has none, give him one of yours. John the Baptist. (Luke 3)

    See also Matthew 22:21
    . . .
    21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

    Of course, we put the name of God on our money, so that makes all money Gods’.

  102. peterh says

    Bear in mind those 144,000 have not been defiled with women. This raises certain issues with the admission form.

  103. says

    Meh, when the markets fail a lot of rich people are going to lose everything they never owned. Of course then no ones getting healthcare.

    But it’ll be fairer :)

  104. hazukiazuma says

    @126/Aquaria

    Oh, I made sure to shout out to him and Pilty in that thread :D And ask people if they would kindly stop gagging on van Til’s rotten zombie dick for 10 seconds and learn something new (coincidentally my next reply was by someone calling himself Cornelius…hah).

  105. Gregory Greenwood says

    Whose side is god on? Why, the same side that patriarchal authority constructs are always on – that of rich, middle aged or older, white, heterosexual men, naturally.

    I mean, what is the point of a lie intended to keep the masses under your heel if it can be co-opted by the proles?

  106. Gregory Greenwood says

    peterh @ 130;

    Bear in mind those 144,000 have not been defiled by women. This raises certain issues with the admission form.

    So, not only is this ‘heaven’ place a stultifyingly boring existence of grovelling obeisance to a socipathic sky fairy, but you can’t even get yourself properly ‘defiled’ by an enthusiastically consenting lady first*?

    Why would anyone want to end up there?

    —————————————————————–

    * And for those whose tastes run to other pursuits, ‘teh ghey secks’ is, of course, completely out of the question because, in addition to being a sociopath, the allegedly all powerful creator of the universe is apparently also sexually insecure enough to be a homophobic bigot.

  107. lopsided says

    They have got to be crazy. No one sane could put up that billboard with a straight face. Whatever PR team told them it would be a wonderful way to get the public on side was trolling them hardcore. JFC.

  108. jimnorth says

    Since corporations, by dint of personhood, will be allowed into heaven there is an opportunity here for more than 144,000 humans going on the up-escalator (or 30,000 if you’re a pessimist or a JW). Joining a corporation could increase the chances of millions, if not billions, of people passing through the pearly gates.

    The Supreme Court sagaciously uncovered a way of avoiding holy wrath without tipping off god. This loophole represents a boon for the Rapture endowed and Apocalyptic crowd.

    I think I’ll get a job at Disneyland.

  109. says

    I’m just curious, they seem to remember ‘though shalt not covet’ ok, but how about ‘render unto caesar’? or Luke 6:30 ‘Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back’, or Math 19:21 ‘If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’. Just wondering why their memory is selective, and so bad?

  110. KG says

    However the argument still stands because the challenge it offers is that you can’t prove anything until you justify your use of invariant abstract entities, otherwise you’re borrowing my worldview in order to disprove my worldview. – some unidentified pre-supper, quoted above

    How do you think you know that?

    To save time, whatever your answer, my response is to ask the same question again, ad infinitum. Just like you do; anyone can play this stupid game with just as much justification.

  111. Gill says

    If only 144,000 get to go to heaven, the conclusion is obvious: it was full up centuries ago. We’re all off to the other place, whatever we believe.

  112. says

    Because then it wouldn’t be a Fallout reference.

    true dat.

    totally OT, but I still play the original every couple of years.

    Just finished the first one. Pissed me off because I think it glitched my ending. I got a “Congratulations on defeating the Master and demolishing his army!” then scene after scene of how said army fucked over the world.

    Um seriously?

  113. ericpaulsen says

    I installed the patch that included the EPA for FO2 and am at the oil rig but after all that the doors to level 2 won’t open, not for love or money. I am afraid it’s a bug but I’m going to call it a win. I’ve killed Horrigan many times before.

  114. Ichthyic says

    I got a “Congratulations on defeating the Master and demolishing his army!” then scene after scene of how said army fucked over the world.

    the game did still have a few bugs that official patches did not fix.

    check the community forums for home-made addons and patches; there used to be a few good ones around; not sure if they are still though.

    both for FO1 and FO2, btw.

  115. peterh says

    @#134:

    Actually, I should have started back a phrase or two. These 144,000 are male virgins who have not been defiled by women. On those criteria, perhaps heaven hasn’t yet lighted the “no vacancy” sign. (For those inquisitive enough, this nuttery comes from Revelation.)

  116. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Graphics don’t work on my version either. Makes me doubt I can get modern games to work on my (new) computer

    Well “new computer” can mean a lot of things.

    A lot of new games require high end vid cards and lots of ram and proc power.

    You may know this, but I figured I’m toss it out there.

  117. Ichthyic says

    I hope the companions are better in FO2. By the end of the game in 1 they had become burdens rather than aid.

    they have good storylines, but I do recall actually editing them a bit to flesh out their abilities.

    (yeah, you can edit items and characters even in the old FOs).

    in fact, you can edit out some of the text bugs too.

    the patches are designed for specific versions of the games, btw, so make sure you match the patch to the right game version.

  118. mikee says

    Given how much money many religions seem to hoard (just look at the Vatican)it is not surprising that they worry about people noticing the unequal distribution of wealth.

  119. Ichthyic says

    Ing; it’s more than sufficient to run the old fallout engine, that’s for sure.

    if you’re still having problems, try updating the driver for the card, and if that doesn’t work, try using the default supervga driver that comes with windows.

    if using the default driver gets it to work right, then the issue is that the current card drivers from ati no longer support the graphics programming used in the fallout engine.

    you might also have trouble with similar proggies like the old Baldur’s gate series, or any other game that uses the Infinity Engine, as I think the FO series used a modification of that engine.

  120. ericpaulsen says

    ING, I wrote a detailed post last night that apparently won’t post (I’m guessing it is the links):

    FO1/2 XP fix -

    Go to the No Mutants Allowed website and search for XP fix. It hasn’t been updated since Windows 7 but should work for you.

    As for the patches you might want to stick with the official ones unless you are adventurous. I used Killaps unofficial and, while I can’t prove it is a bug, I can’t get to the lower level on the oil rig. Use at your own risk.

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