Rebecca Watson takes a moment to vent about the internet bile aimed at her, and it’s a depressing read. Who would have imagined a mild admonition to “guys, don’t do that” would turn into months of seething hatred and demonization? As she documents, there are whole sites and ongoing threads dedicated to trashing her and anyone associated with her. I took a quick look at some of her links, and found this treasure on one thread committed to hatin’ everything Watson:
“freethoughtblogs” has become a spiteful ghetto built on a river of bile for insecure gutter-fascists.
That is supernova-grade irony.
Rebecca Watson has my support as an appreciated and valuable member of the skeptical community, who has made many contributions and has also been an entertaining and informative face for skepticism.
The saddest part of this whole contemptible witch-hunt, though, is that several of the people who are still spittle-spewing ranters against the Skepchicks were also appreciated members of the skeptical community, who have unfortunately done a fine job of isolating themselves with their obsessive hate-mongering and slander. Let it go, people. Grow up, move on, shed the misogyny. And make no mistake, you have exposed yourselves as irrational misogynists.
Yikes! What’s this?
PZ not-so-secret plan to keep the horde busy with insults and MRA-bashing until he finishes his deadlines, stage II?
Ok – taking bets for the # of the first clueless MRA-post now…
It won’t be two at least.
Hmmm. Perhaps it’s time to revive my Ghetto féministe title.
Seeing these people’s true colours on this issue has been illuminating, to say the least. It was shocking to see the depth of their dismissal and the lengths they reached to be sure their contempt was known.
I just wish some of these guys, and most of them are, would have just a taste of the kind of unwanted attention many women get everyday of their lives. I can’t believe the lack of empathy it requires to be angry at this whole thing.
Wow. These misogynist arseholes take the assertion of the actual personhood (as opposed to disposeable-living-sextoy-hood) of women really badly.
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people? The hate campaign aimed at Rebecca Watson is nothing short of psychotic, and it is all over a simple request that men not behave like total jerks. I don’t see how any normal person can take such a generalised and gently phrased admonition so personally as to be driven to hound someone for months.
These people just seem to hate it whenever a woman (or anyone else) confronts them with the fact that she doesn’t exists solely for their gratification.
There was one obnoxious troll in the chat room for the SGU 24 hr dealy around 11:30 AM EST. If I was interpreting his jibberish correctly, Rebecca flaunts her sexuality shamelessly until some poor man falls for her wiles, and then screams that she’s being objectified. Or something.
One telling piece of info was that the poor dear admitted to meeting her once and she was mean to him. Read into that what you will.
The abusive language this jackass was flinging was above and beyond the normal trolling. The guy is a sexual assault just waiting to happen. Very disturbing, to put it mildly.
I do not want to live on this planet anymore…
Wait, “freethoughtblogs” is wut?
With a relationship to reality that tenuous, and intellectual honesty that minimal, whoever wrote that really ought to be a creationist.
“fascists” (from quote)
You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.
To be honest, I don’t want to know. Some things, when seen, cannot be unseen, and I would rather not have that image seared into my brain for the rest of my life.
I just don’t get it. My atheism is based in humanism, and one of the core humanist values is, “Treat everyone with respect until they have proven they deserve otherwise.” Simply having two X chromosomes does not put someone into “deserve otherwise” class. For some reason, it keeps surprising me that so few people share this view.
Curse you, Rebecca Watson! You made me look at some of those sewer sites again. I was amused by this characterization of me (see, she’s not the only one who gets the hate).
So I’m accused of being the next best thing to a serial killer, and I discover I used to “get beaten, without pants, by teachers on a regular basis”. Really? I didn’t know that!
The last people to accuse me of having bodies buried at my house was the crew from Expelled, who asked if they could look around in my basement.
They don’t do the No Religions cause any good. Just proves some Nones can be jerks, morons, and trolls.
They’d do the Nones many orders of magnitude more good if they joined a fundie xian death cult. They already have an important part of the cults’ belief system internalized.
It’s the only one we can afford at the moment I’m afraid, but a good fumigation and a new coat of paint and it’ll be nice – I swear.
Isn’t it just fantastic that taking a stand for equality = fascism to these jokers?
I usually try to have at least a minimal understanding of the meaning of a term before I use it, but that’s just me. I’m odd that way…
This is getting strange
I certainly don’t condone, appreciate or approve of the bile being flung at Rebecca, but I will point out that anyone with an opposing opinion wasn’t treated very well either.
It is way past time to move on, though. Everyone’s position is out there and there are lots of other things happening right now.
So what I have been wondering about. What happened at TAM 2011? Weren’t both Rebecca Watson and Richard Dawkins there, as featured speakers? I kinda was hoping that Dawkins would find it in his heart to settle this issue publicly with Watson, but it doesn’t seem to have happened. I mean it is nice that Dawkins will pay for childcare now, but would an apology have been so hard?
Gregory @ 10;
On reflection, I think you are right. This may be one of those rare occasions where ignorance genuinely is bliss. The mind of an MRA is most likely a sick and creepy place.
“freethoughtblogs” has become a spiteful ghetto built on a river of bile for insecure gutter-fascists.
That is supernova-grade irony.
——–
I would consider that to be “weapons-grade stupidity” myself, but hey, whatever metaphor works right?
@PZ Myers
I heard that the worst traumas can become repressed memories. I guess you also forgot about the time when I had you swear allegiance to me and send 100$ in my bank account every month, because I’m not getting any anymore.
Did someone order a truckload of porcupines?
PZ:
The things you learn from fantasists who didn’t live your life!
One thing that’s kept my eyebrows raised from the beginning of Egate is the sheer amount of crap that’s been made up out of thin air by the Morally Repugnant Asshole brigade.
At one point, I did find out I’m a guy and a nasty prick of one at that.
One thing is for sure here.
Anyone and everyone is better off with whoever these people are not being around.
I’ve met people (and I’m sure everyone has) that the best thing one can do is get the hell away and stay away. People have the right and responsibility to protect themselves.
I’d assumed that Abbie Smith* must have become embarrassed by her ongoing thread and decided to let it fade out quietly, but no. She’s still active on it (and others), and her posts have turned even more bizarre. I don’t even know if I can be that angry – it’s worrisome.
*I feel it necessary to mention one more time that her recent claims that the HPV vaccine is 100% effective against cervical cancer are FALSE. Even if you are vaccinated at an early age, and even assuming full lifelong effectiveness, the vaccine only prevents against the HPV strains that cause 70% of cervical cancers – not 100%. Like everyone else, you still need regular Pap tests, which are extremely effective in preventing cervical cancer.
16 was the magic number.
Splodiedearest: Since Rebbecas opinion was “treat women as humans” it only stands to reason that the opposing view is met with a slight resistance.
I thought this whole elevatorgate/hate on Watson would be over after that first couple of posts. Or after it still got mentioned occasionally in the comments. Or after it kept popping up in completely unrelated topics all over the web. Or… I don’t know, when some people grow the fuck up! I can’t believe people are harassing her about this. Way to prove that atheists and/or skeptics don’t have issues with sexism.
Splodie @16: You’re in the wrong place to tell people that it’s “time to move on.” The people who need to hear that are the ones who are harassing Rebecca Watson.
I don’t know about you PZ, but there are days when this kind of thing tempts me to do a spot of ‘Dexter-ing’**.
*Looks at oh-so sharp and shiny carving knife. Thinks better of it.*
** It really shouldn’t have to said, but I am joking here. Just in case some paranoid MRA tries to claim;
“ZOMG! teh crazy feminazi guy wants to murdah me! Help! Help!”
Funny that. I chatted with a guy on aim a few years back who did get a taste of it. He was working late night at a restaurant where 3 women harassed him until closing. They pinched his butt, made several suggestive comments and tried to slip tips into his pocket. His co workers laughed at him and told him he should be grateful for the attention. It was no big deal to them that it made him feel cheap and violated. That’s why he found himself sharing his troubles with some random guy he rp’d with on a dragonball z forum.
I suggested he quit and find new friends. He replied it’d taken him ‘forever’ to find that job and he doubted he could find a new one. Don’t think he went looking for new friends.
So yeah, unwanted attention, bad. It hurts regardless of sex, gender and orientation. Women have every right (and every reason) to complain. And we, who don’t deal with that bs everyday (man or woman), owe them at least some respect when they put that much of themselves out there.
splodie:
Gee, I wonder why. :eyeroll: Go back and read the whole 3D4K and everything after that. Maybe you’ll get that brain working and figure it all out, starting with which people were being honest and which ones weren’t. Things like honesty matter, ya know.
I’ll take “Both sides are just as bad” with a side of “nothing to see here” to start my bingo card, please.
splodie @ 16;
They asked for it.
There is significant sexism within the atheist community. It cannot simply be brushed under the carpet and ignored. That is exactly what the misogynists want; that their prejudice and privilege should go unremarked and unchallenged.
Pteryxx:
Good picks! For those who want to play, Cupcake Bingo is here, scroll down for the Special Misogyny Edition.
Every time I read one of these posts, criticizing Rebecca, I wonder… did they ever watch the original video? I did, and it was the most relaxed and innocuous thing I ever saw. It was literally just her going “guys, don’t do this.”
I’m having a really hard time imagining any sensible person being upset about that. I’m left thinking that they either don’t know what they’re talking about, or they’re not sensible.
All right! Who’s ready to administer some being-hit-on-the-head lessons?
Before the invasion, links for the clueless, the stupid and the assorted douchecakes, Part I.
If you show up here and say “gee, what is this all about” or some variant, please shut up and go read here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/always_name_names.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/the_decent_human_beings_guide.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/oh_no_not_againonce_more_unto.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/gynofascists_are_invading_the.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/go_read_jennifer_ouellette_rig.php
The Dawkins boycott did it for me. This issue is not so cut-and-dry, and to pull a stunt like that at the first sign of push back is childish and stupid. RW is more interested in her own popularity than actually helping. This much is obvious from her banning on the JREF forums. Do you even know what she did to get banned? It’s unbelieveable someone like that garners any respect from serious people. I’ve even stopped listening to SGU (formerly one of my favorites), because I can’t stomach her anymore.
Well, splodie, that excuses all of the people who accused Rebecca of crying rape.
“I’m not racist, but [insert racist comment].”
People who oppose the position that women should be treated as human beings rather than as fucktoys deserve to be ill-treated.
Yeah, I watched the video too, and wonder what video her detractors saw.
When I first heard about the incident, my initial reaction was, “yeah, I can see where this guy was coming from, but he was pretty clueless (assuming good faith here!), and someone needs to educate him”. Would have been nice if the video would have just done that instead triggering one of the biggest shitstorms ever in the history of Pharyngula…
Before the invasion, links for the clueless, the stupid and the assorted douchecakes, Part II.
If you just “don’t get it”, don’t see where there’s sexism and don’t grok privilege, please shut up and go read:
Explainer: What’s an MRA?
Nice Guy™ 101.
Schroedinger’s Rapist.
Predator Redux
Things Happen to Men Too
The Male Privilege Checklist
They merely prove that, no matter how far away they’ve gotten from things like religious fundamentalism, homeopathy, cryptozoology, and all those other things they love to make fun of, they’re still just as irrational as the lot of them. If they can’t reconcile the fact that being outwardly sexy or sexual as a woman doesn’t create a debt payable to any male who happens to notice, then they might as well go bowling with the Taliban, because I’m sure their sense of entitlement with respect to women will give them all a lot in common.
Oh, I beg your pardon! I thought this was Abuse.
I’m probably too optimistic and/or naive, but I like to imagine the people, lying on their deathbeds years from now, imagining all the ways they could have made better use of the time and energy they spent on the deeply stupid effort to make another human being unhappy.
Well Shibujiro, tell us, why did she get banned?
I mean I for one was really saddened that Dawkins couldn’t just jump over his shadow and apologise. Though Dawkins has had some trouble within the community, first Forumgate, now Elevatorgate, though the second one was totally superfluous, because he could have just sat this one out… He is after all, a biologist, and not a sociologist or gender theorist. Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses, you catch my drift..
Shibujiro,
Nice rant. Especially the part where you mentioned that, despite your dislike of Rebecca Watson, you think that the continuous harassment and obsessive hate towards her is not something you condone. Oh wait, you didn’t. I don’t think this has ever been about popularity, but even assuming it was, it has gone beyond any kind of popularity contest. The hate aimed at her is sickening and scary.
oh poor little manling. Did she expose your superhero’s secret identity as “mr male privilege”?
Guess what? It wasn’t really a secret.
And you are really a decrepid little creep. Someone saying she won’t buy any more books by a man justifies months of rabid abuse?
Please put you head a bit further up your arse. Don’t worry about the lack of air, it’s the most merciful way you can go out of this – really!
Shibujiro @ 37, way to miss the point, fuckwit. Ms. Watson said “guys, don’t do that”. That’s it. That’s all. It was the furious, spittle flecked response which flared up that spat fuel all over a non-flame.
It really doesn’t matter if someone chose to boycott Dawkins, the man isn’t about to go broke if some people don’t buy his books. What does matter are the host of MRAs happily ensconced and invested in treating women as not fully human; what does matter are fuckwits such as yourself fumbling for the lamest of excuses to take refuge in sexism and smugly thinking yourself superior and somehow above the fray. You’re despicable.
Shibujiro, Rebecca addressed JREF forum issue. Nice to see that you are keeping up on the issues before you speak out.
There was no boycott. Ms Watson felt slighted by Richard Dawkins (who was incredibly dismissive towards the women on this site trying to explain why they would be equally uncomfortable in a similar situation) and decided she personally wouldn’t purchase anymore of his books. She did not call for a boycott until he took back his remarks or issued an apology and (iirc) she stated outright she didn’t want others starting a boycott on her behalf.
You’re welcome to share the story. I’ve heard her version of the events, I might as well hear yours as well. Honestly doubt it will make me think the last few months of slut shaming and harassment are ok.
I don’t get this AT ALL. I read each post in this “elevator-gate” debacle but decided not to comment because truly, I have no dog in this hunt. But now, so long after the event first occurred to see that so many men are still so bent out of shape over what? A woman who dared to express her discomfort over an advance made to her while confined in a closet sized metal cube with a locked door that could be stopped between floors with the push of a button? Gee, why would ANYONE be uncomfortable when trapped in THAT kind of situation?
Look guys, as the owner and operator of a penis myself I really don’t understand what the big deal here is. If anything Rebecca Watson has given you a much needed clue – USE IT! Don’t proposition women in locked spaces where they may feel somewhat at a disadvantage. For those who just can’t get over their wounded egos take your left hand and reach between your legs, you should feel some testicles hanging there… now SACK UP and get on with your lives!
The tactics won’t work, ultimately. They won’t.
*clenched-tentacle salute*
Gnumann:
You may not want to assume Shibujiro is male. Throughout this whole mess, many of us have found ourselves in discussion with women who are firmly entrenched in the sexist side of things. It’s not at all uncommon, especially in this case.
#39
That’s right, criticising the ego of Rebecca Watson and racism are the same thing. Silly me, we should all sit down and shut up before we’re called Nazis as well as misogynists.
Shibujiro @37:
Well, sanctimonious idiot, you’ve done it for me with your asinine comment. You know, Watson could do things that you wouldn’t like? And that is so much not the point?
It is astonishing how Watson has maintained so much grace under all this mountain of shit. I happen to like her and agree with many of her views, but even if I didn’t, after all this tornado of stupidity, I would keep quiet about that– pointing out any such disagreement would be so gauche and inelegant, I’d feel thoroughly ashamed.
Thanks, PZ — I doubt it’s always easy for you. Yet you give a very good example of tolerating differences with many people, although obtuse readers will probably never perceive it. And thanks to everybody here on the side of the angels.
Splodie, I suggest that you check out the Elevatorgate blog in order to see how condescending some of the shit tossed at Rebecca Watson is. And here is one example of made up shit. And notice how the cupcake begs off any comments about it. But he liked it enough to post it.
I see no fucking need to apologize to liars and creeps.
Eric Paulsen:
You don’t? You aren’t a human being with an interest in seeing women treated as full human beings? How interestin’.
I’ma say the same thing I said over at Skepchick, with embellishment:
Fuck it. Say that Rebecca Watson is the most annoying human being ever. Say that ““freethoughtblogs” has become a spiteful ghetto built on a river of bile for insecure gutter-fascists.” Say every negative thing you want or need to get off your chest.
Fine.
Now fuck off and go away. If you don’t, you’re a mentally-defective sick fuck who needs serious mental health care, possibly in a padded room.
There are people who have done me wrong. There are people who have broken my heart, beaten me down physically and emotionally. There are people who I think are terrible human beings, and when I’m in a darker emotional place I find to be unworthy of help in the worst circumstances they could face. There are a couple of people who, in the right/wrong circumstances, I could probably kill and be fine with the consequences of my actions.
You know what all of those people have in common? I spend absolutely none of my time following them around on the Internet to see what they have to say next. The ex-girlfriend who cheated on my, broke my heart, and scammed tens of thousands of dollars from me? I have no idea where she is, and I don’t care. My brother, who called me to shame me and curse me for not buying his kid a $100 Xmas present when I had just lost my job and had to miss a mortgage payment just to keep the lights and water on? I don’t talk to him any more. The people online who have insulted me, hurt my feelings, and made me feel small and worthless can all be found in “ignore” lists on message boards, and their blogs removed from my bookmarks.
At this point, we’ve gone beyond ElevatorGate. We’re way past whatever butthurt those negative people felt in the days and weeks after Watson dared to say what she did. No matter what your opinion of her, and her comments, and the comments about her comments, and the people who defended and attacked her, and all the rest of it… if you’re still neck-deep in passionate feelings against the people involved on either side, you’re in need of at least some soul-searching, and possibly some professional help.
Yeah, I guess haters gotta hate… but ain’t nobody gotta be a hater. Everyone has a choice.
@Shibujiro: Go get a fucking clue-by-four.
Rebecca Watson said, “Guys, don’t do that.”
Appropriate response: Wow, I didn’t realize that could make someone uncomfortable. [Listens, examines privilege, learns, becomes a better person. Easy, no?]
Inappropriate reaction: MRA universe reaching critical mass and exploding with widespread incidents of pearl-clutching, rabid misogyny, rape threats, etc. [Sigh.]
It’s so incredibly depressing to think that a SIMPLE, polite request could unleash so much hatred and bile. Rebecca is a brave person whom I admire, and I wish her the best. And Pharyngulans give me faith in human decency.
I can’t for the life of me imagine what the JREF thing has to do with anything, but Anne C. Hanna posted about it* with links. As I don’t give a fig and assume Hanna’s summary to be accurate, I haven’t bothered to sign in to read the actual threads.
*And thanks to PZ for posting on that thread.
I’m aback a bit that this has grown into such a fiasco. It certainly reinforces MY awareness on how important the proper exercise of male/female rituals are for keeping the peace (for much of the animal kingdom). Even a small violation of propriety can set off a maelstrom of angst. I’m certainly going to watch myself.
freethoughtblogs” has become a spiteful ghetto built on a river of bile for insecure gutter-fascists.
You can’t build a ghetto on a river. That person is stupid.
To be fair to “C. C. Velvet”, Watson made comparisons between black/n*gger, jew/kike and gay/fag in her opening remarks, whereas “C. C. Velvet’s” second insult was not related to the noun. If you replaced woman with black, you don’t replace c*nt with n*gger as the insult c*nt wasn’t intended as being an insult that can only be directed at women. You can’t really insult a white person by calling them n*gger but you can insult a man by calling him a c*nt (which probably happens a lot more than girls being called c*nt, at least where i’m from).
So Rebecca’s comparison wasn’t really fair but in no way am I justifying or supporting the remarks made by “C.C.”.
A more fair comparison would be:
“You will go through life thinking that white people don’t like you because your (sic) black. I want you to know from the bottom of my heart, that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re an asshole”.
Even the original use of this phrase in The Social Network didn’t have the insult relating to the noun. How did Rebecca miss that? If the insult did relate to the noun, it’d go like this:
“you will go through life thinking that girls don’t like you because you’re a tech geek. I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re a nerd.”
And yes, I would point this out even if a male blogger had made this mistake.
@Gregory Greenwood #28: I also have a nice, sniny knife, and would happily be your partner in this venture. :) /jk
Improbable Joe:
Well, Improbable Joe, I do have passionate feelings about MRAs and other assorted douchecakes. I do have passionate feelings about hateful assholes who think I don’t deserve full human being status because I’m a woman. I do have passionate feelings about how women are treated every day, I do have passionate feelings about rape and sexual assault survivors, being one myself. I do have passionate feelings about the bigotry and discrimination women face every fucking day of their lives. I do have passionate feelings about the amount of harassment women have to face every fucking day of their lives. I do have passionate feelings about having to be better every fucking day of my life, I do have passionate feelings about having to do constant risk assessment, always being cautious and having to take extra steps to insure my safety every fucking day of my life. I do have passionate feelings about other women who have to do the same damn thing. I do have passionate feelings about womens’ autonomy and the constant fight against those who oppose it.
Oh, a bit of bad news here – I don’t have a soul. Also, don’t you dare presume what other people have or haven’t been through in their lives and what they do or don’t feel passionate about.
I don’t go around on the ‘net yakking about Egate. However, if the subject of sexism comes up on what happens to be my ‘net base, yes, I’m going to fucking discuss it and passionately so. Care for a porcupine?
@Caine: You’re quite right, I should have known better. It was sloppy thinking on my part. Thanks for calling me out.
(but the insult fitted so well :( )
Caine, Fleur du Mal said:
…You don’t? You aren’t a human being with an interest in seeing women treated as full human beings? How interestin’.
Wow. So THAT is what you decided to take away from my post. Kind of stupid, but maybe that’s just your way, attacking an ally and all. More to the point I never commented before because there is ALWAYS some douchebag asshat who want’s to attack people for any little thing they write, kind of like you did, but hey what he hell. You go on fighting the good fight all alone. That way you can say that it was all you who eradicated sexism in the modern world.
Cameron: you’re 100% wrong on this issue.
And now Cameron pops in to argue that “cunt” is not an misogynist insult because men get called it.
Human decency… WITH CUSSING! ♥♥♥
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
I have a mother, a sister, a daughter, and girlfriend. Any one of which would be more than enough incentive not to tolerate sexism. Come to that, without any of them, normal human empathy would suffice. But it does make me wonder, can it really be that some of these men have no females in their life that they care enough about to imgagine being outraged if someone treated them this way? How incredibly pathetic.
– Matt
That sound you just heard, the one that went zooming way over your head. That was the point.
————————
@Improbable Joe
You really do have to wonder what it is that’s driven them this mad. Looking over their list of grievances I feel distinctly underwhelmed. Ok she may not have been all that fair in her characterization of Paula Kirby’s argument (many disagree but..), maybe she did presume to speak for all women (when? still can’t see it) and maybe she was horrible to Stef McGraw (definitely don’t see this but I can understand why Ms McGraw felt insulted and picked on). How does any combination of that make this haze fest ok?
Janine:
Oh Janine, you know it’s so much worse when it’s aimed at a man! It hurts their manhood.
:near fatal eyeroll:
That’s six threads down from here, you can’t miss it.
Stupid git…
Er, thanks for the advice, but I don’t really need my scrotum and testes for that.
Okay, I’ll oblige. You’re a Nazi.
@Eric Paulsen:
That wasn’t Caine attacking an ally. That was Caine gently pointing out your mistake.
I take it you’ve never seen Caine attack.
@Pteryxx: Word! ♥ (Well-used profanity can be a delicious seasoning…)
I aspire to one day attending an atheist and/or skeptic conference. Please tell me they aren’t actually overrun with jerks whose aim in life is to make us look foolish and ugly.
Eric Paulsen:
No, Cupcake, that’s not all I took away. I noted your desire to appear as one of the good guys™ albeit a completely disinterested one and I took note of your gender-based
which marked you as both clueless and an idiot.
@66, come on, you did ask for it.
I also read all the threads about EG, at least on this site, but didn’t post, because if you don’t know much about something, it’s better to shut up and listen. Kinda wish that Dawkins would have done the same thing….
I wouldn’t say this place is “a spiteful ghetto built on a river of bile”. It’s more like if you combined Two Minutes’ Hate with The Glass Bead Game.
Or, at the most, given a token, lip-service-y, superficial “quick-fix” that doesn’t really change anything, but that gives them something to point to as “evidence” that they reallyreallyreally aren’t sexist, honest.
–
Give it a coupla minutes.
–
without pants yes – But they forget to mention that for each whack PZ gave a “Thank-you Sir may I please have another”!!!
Caine, Fleur du Mal@#64
I think you’ve completely misread my point. I’m pissed off at sexism, you’re pissed off at sexism, I’m not suggesting anyone stop being pissed off at sexism. We have all the same enemies here, after all. We’re on the EXACT SAME TEAM, so don’t come at me with your knives out.
My ENTIRE point was this: people can be assholes. Rebecca Watson may seem like an asshole to some people. You might think I’m an asshole. I might think you’re an asshole (I don’t, I just think you misread me). My point is that disliking someone, justified or otherwise, is no reason to stalk them, follow them around making nasty comments, digging into their personal lives, or in any way ever interact with them again on any level.
If you decide you don’t like me, I expect you’ll tell me so. I don’t expect you to email me on a regular basis and tell me so, or find out my work number so you can tell my boss you don’t like me, or follow me on Twitter or create an anti-Joe website… because only crazy people do that. David Markuze does that. Sane people disagree, even vehemently, but they don’t go on months-long crusades against strangers on the Internet over perceived slights, fair or otherwise.
Can’t we replace “sack up” and similarly idiotic expressions with “mind up” or “brain out” or something?
Well since I can’t pass Caine, Fleur du Mals personal purity test I am officially off this topic. Fight it yourself.
Long time reader first time commenter as they say.
I sincerely hope the idiots don’t win in this case. I’d hate to lose Rebecca as a voice in the skeptic community.
She is largely the reason I identify as a feminist now. Without her, I’d probably be a milder version of the MRA nuts behind this. Either way, I listened to her, and because of that I was introduced to a lot of bloggers and contributors that we both skeptic/atheist and feminist and I came to the realisation that those ideas actually went well together. She’s also, by cause and effect then, the reason I seem to get called a feminazi misandrist far too often…Oh well.
As far as I’m concerned, it comes down to this:
Do you agree that women should be treated with the same level of decency and respect as men? Yes or no?
If yes, then you shouldn’t have any problem whatsoever with what Rebecca said, since that’s all she was asking for.
If no, go die in a car fire.
Improbable Joe:
I got your point. The entire one. You chose your words badly when you implied that people on both sides needed to examine their souls and required professional help.
Yes, the people engaged in stalking are scary and seriously over the edge and this crap has been going on much too long.
However, for a majority of people, the issue is now the wider one of entrenched sexism and those who defend it. This isn’t the time to simply be quiet and drop the subject. I expect you know that or else you wouldn’t be posting.
And for the record, no, I don’t hate you, I don’t dislike you and I generally find your posts to be good and valuable.
There is too much glib dismissal directed towards Splodie’s comment that there was some bad behavior on both sides. Not everyone who chimed in with a comment counter to the party line here was a raging rape-apologist MRA asshole. But that’s what they got called by people like this shrill wretch Sally Strange who is a legend in her own mind for whatever reason. Anyone who disagrees with her on any subject, including fat acceptance, is worthy of being called an ignoramus, but god forbid she gets called a miserable bitch, which is what she is.
Eric Paulsen, you’re being an asshole. If you try to claim neutrality on an issue of basic human justice so that you can declaim an opinion from on high, you are being part of the problem. If that wasn’t your intent, then try actually listening to what people like Caine are saying.
That’s to me the strangest part of this whole thing. Paula Kirby hasn’t (to my knowledge) been on a witch-hunt against Watson. McGraw arguably has a mild grievance, and she’s not declared a jihad against anyone. Watson herself has barely mentioned the subject, although at this point it is clearly self-preservation. Richard Dawkins stepped in it big time, but everyone directly involved seems to have dropped it.
The point I was making is that, even if we assume the worst motives behind everything that everyone has said and done over this whole sordid affair, the hazing an abuse and stalking and silencing and attempts at intimidation are ALL out of place. Watson and Kirby and McGraw and Dawkins and Myers aren’t trying to shame and threaten each other into silence, none of them are obsessing over the behavior of the other people, or creating blogs to air the history of other people on the Internet, or any of the other things that Watson is facing right now.
The people who are doing it are all on one side, and outside of the direct debate. I also haven’t seen anyone start a blog called “Let’s track down the MRA assholes by name and make their daily lives a living hell!” because the rest of us know better.
While reading the SACK UP shit, in the back ground I am hearing one of those stupid Miller Lite MAN UP commercials. This shit surrounds up.
Who knew that their old series of commercial featuring ex athletes would not be as sexist?
You are correct. It is important to recognize the nuance here.
In fact, only a few of the people who “countered the party line here” were raging, rape-apologist MRA jerks.
The rest merely gave those jerks cover.
I couldn’t ever live long enough to understand men’s hatred of women. There is nothing, nothing, nothing that Rebecca Watson has said or written to deserve this sick, obsessive vitriol. And guys like me? We get to pick up the pieces. We get to try to somehow save the reputation of the male species, somehow convince women that there are, indeed, nice men out there somewhere in the wilderness. But it’s really fucking hard sometimes.
Especially during those times when it seems like every other guy in the world is a fucking jerk.
“At core, men are afraid that women will laugh at them. At core, women are afraid that men will kill them.”
When guys realize that the above quote is true, is horrfyingly true**, then they might realize that being hit on in an elevator in the middle of the night in a foreign city (by a strange man who just listened to you giving a speech about being hit on) is uncomfortable. And Ms. Watson’s assertion that guys shouldn’t do that is — holy shit, this is fucking crazy! Wait for it! Wait for it! — reasonable.
**My mother was almost raped; fended the guy off at gunpoint. An ex-girlfriend of mine, in the kind of event people only think happens in movies or nightmares, was hauled into an alley, raped, stabbed three times with an ice pick, and left lying on the ground with her pants around her ankles. My ex-wife went on a date with a guy who thought it was funny to joke that he could kill her and bury her on the remote road they were driving on. A friend of mine dated a woman who had been raped three times, once by a stranger, once by a date, once by a fucking family member. She used to define herself as bisexual, but ended up fearing and distrusting all men. Gosh, she’s a bitch. And guys? They have bad dates or get cheated on. Big deal. No wait! Sometimes they’re raped, too. By men.
DS #89
And your apparent claim not to be an MRA arsehole isn’t looking too strong, right now
DS
You really think this is the place to go calling somebody a bitch? You really think that’s the way to make your point that not everybody who disagrees with us is a sexist asshole? You’re really not doing Splodie any favors here.
You do know that you can disagree with SallyStrange with resorting to sexist stereotypes.
Caine, Fleur du Mal… maybe you could not punch people in the face quite so hard, metaphorically-speaking? If you have read my posts and have no reason to think badly of me based on past behavior, an you assume I misspoke in some way rather than carried malice, then the way you responded to me seems sort of counterproductive, you know?
I wasn’t telling anyone to not hold positions, I was saying that we shouldn’t always be on the offensive against everyone who slights us… and my comment about “all sides” wasn’t “feminists vs sexists” but about how various teams seemed to spring up over the situation, with overlapping and non-overlapping positions. I could have been more clear, obviously. You could have given me an easier chance to clarify.
And that’s all I’ll say on that subject.
Cameron,
it’s an insult against women. It’s part of the tradition that considers purity a good thing and sex a filthy thing, that calls genitalia “junk” and that generally vote Republican. It’s so generalized people use it for everything, like bitch, but that doesn’t negate its meaning (similarly the fact that people use the word “Google” as a verb doesn’t make it so).
again, I notice how you skip over the part where she is free to call other people names. So ignoramus is OK but miserable bitch is not?
DS:
Oh you poor little baby! What happened Cupcake? SallyStrange call you out for being an asspimple? Well, I’ll provide you with some relief: you’re a fetid, putrid, pus-filled pimple on the ass of humanity, Cupcake. There, now it isn’t all
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!Sally, Sally, Sally!Let’s see, what else? Oh, because someone criticised your stance (and/or the stance of others), she’s shrill, a legend in her own mind and a miserable bitch. Oh my. I’d say she’s right in that you’re an ighoramus, to say the least.
When you can’t come up with actual arguments and take refuge in gender-based insults, you have admitted you’re an intellectually impoverished asspimple.
Now have a decaying porcupine, Cupcake.
Well done! A gold star on your term report.
DS:
That’s right. One is gender-based and one is not. Gee, that was just so fucking difficult, eh?
@Joe, you know I love you (it was the guitar amps) but you screwed up here:
Two problems: first, some of us with psychological disorders don’t appreciate getting lumped in with harassers and abusers. So ixnay on the azy-cray please.
Second off, stalking behavior is very very VERY common, especially with the guy-chases-girl motif giving it credence. It’s a manipulative, predatory tactic, stemming from entitlement and condonement. What you’re describing – what Rebecca’s enduring – is going to be 95% straight-up harassment. Ascribing it to a small minority of Markuzes just minimizes the actual problem.
I don’t have my copy of “Gift of Fear” here but I seem to recall women being stalked at a similar rate to sexual assault, say 1 out of every 3 or 4 women has been stalked.
… and you’ll have to excuse me if I’m not as clear as I should be. I’m in Florida, I’ve had a couple of beers, I’ll be sleeping on an inflatable mattress tonight, my wife is already in bed and snoring, and my water was just turned off. My computer is sitting on a plastic dog-foo container, I’m sitting on a cat crate, and my mousepad is the box my Keurig came in.
Someone feel free to start a blog mocking my sorrows. :)
Improbable Joe:
Yes, I can do that. I’m sorry.
I should have and didn’t. I apologize for getting carried away.
DS, you fucking stupid fuckface, can you not see the difference between those two insults.
Set up the dead porcupine.
If we skip the part where the former is more of an accurate description, and less an insult:
There’s a difference between those two. Can your ill-used brain figure out what it is. Big hint: What’s the topic of discussion here?
Improbable Joe:
Why? Oh, have another beer or three. It’ll help.
oh yeah, I’m an MRA misogynist, even though I was one of the first people offering support to Rebecca after the whole thing broke. I dont condone sexual harassment and I think the guy in the elevator was a jerk or an idiot. But the point AGAIN is that there was bad behavior on both sides of the discussion after that. Not everyone who struggled with the issue (including a lot of WOMEN) is automatically a misogynist. And I am a black gay man, so no white woman needs to explain anything to me about DISCRIMINATION. I don’t automatically label every person who disagrees with affirmative action a “fucking Klansman”. And I deserve the right to call anyone a miserable bitch (male or female)
@67,68 and 73
While I do see where you are coming from (calling a man a cunt is still bad because of the idea a man is insulted by the female anatomy the original phrase used in the Social Network clearly does not have the insult connected to the noun. One would therefore have to assume the insult “cunt” wasn’t used in a sexist fashion as the insult in “C.C.’s” phrase.
Cunt is widely held to be the most offensive swear word (not that that doesn’t make it sexist), but the meaning behind it sort of has lost touch with most people due to its common use. No one really thinks “oh wow he called me a cunt, I must be a vagina”, just like how often the insult “dick” is used, or “bugger” for that matter (down here in NZ, bugger is a term used when you f*ck up and it is acceptable enough to be used on the news and in ads). I doubt C.C. was intending to be a misogynist in calling Rebecca a cunt just as if he had called her a motherfucker he wouldn’t be implying the literal interpretation.
I think one has to interpret the insult ‘cunt’ as having little do to with it’s origin and more or less means “an unpleasant or stupid person” (Oxford Dictionary). In the UK, Aus and NZ, it can also “convey a positive sense of the object or person referred to” as in “good cunt”. Perhaps it is just how the word is used in commonwealth countries but i’m sure you’ll find it has lost it’s original meaning down here, not sure about American people (outside of the feminist movement, of course).
Are we now going to start saying “bugger” is offensive to homosexual people? I’m sure they don’t mind as the word has long lost it’s meaning.
again, “There’s a difference between those two. Can your ill-used brain figure out what it is. Big hint: What’s the topic of discussion here?”
that’s the bile that’s being talked about. which is why the comment section of this blog has become a joke.
“DS, you fucking stupid fuckface, can you not see the difference between those two insults.”
No I dont you silly cow
I for one learned a thing or two about misogyny from these events and take pride in becoming a feminist-in-training. I’m far from perfect, but I’m much more aware of male privilege, society’s ingrained sexism, and have even started to notice internalized misogyny.
As a person dedicated to eternal self-improvement I take pride in being shaped by others and not just sticking to my old ways of thinking and being. I don’t always get it right, but it’s scientific to learn from others, admit when you are wrong and take steps to do better in the future.
Thanks PZ and thanks Rebecca Watson!
Well, good on ya for taking the high road.
DS
I’m British. We over here place much less emphasis on the word ‘cunt’ than many Americans do. Would that make it right for me to use the word on a board such as this, where it is viewed as sexist? Of course not. It’s called ‘tact’.
“That’s right. One is gender-based and one is not. Gee, that was just so fucking difficult, eh?”
As I said I call everybody bitches when they deserve it. Is that so fucking difficult, bitch?
Umm…YES!
God, you could have at least gone with the rape apology thing. That might have been a little harder to argue against. But placing ignoramus on the same level as miserable bitch? Are you fucking serious?
There’s a saying from the anti-Viet Nam protests. “Either you are part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.” Your weasel-worded pronounce meant you were part of the problem. At least in the eyes of some folks here. Think about that, then get back to us.
Deserve the right to be a sexist asshole? Nice. But keep complaining. I’m sure others will have fun with you.
And I deserve the right to call anyone a nigger faggot. And get called on it when I do.
Idiot.
“I’m British. We over here place much less emphasis on the word ‘cunt’ than many Americans do. Would that make it right for me to use the word on a board such as this, where it is viewed as sexist? Of course not. It’s called ‘tact’.”
and who decides which insults are tactical and which are not? That’s part of the criticism being levied against the commentators on this blog. If the answer is PZ decides, then I accept that because it is his blog
DS:
No, you don’t deserve that right. Despite what you say, you aren’t someone who is a feminist (yes, men can be feminists, even black gay ones) nor are you in any way empathic to the difficulties women face. If you were, you’d understand the problem with gender-based insults.
Try again, Cupcake.
@those of you saying both sides are bad
You can’t possibly be that stupid to compare both of them. Which side was spewing hateful message? Which side had people so obsessed in this that they created entire websites just to spite on Watson? Which side overreacted to just a simple suggestion that men be polite? In fact, the suggestion is incredibly simple, to the point of making me wonder what is wrong with those people. They spewed incredibly stupid and incredibly hateful statements because of a simple suggestion! A stupidly simple suggestion! And now they are acting like they have been castrated and told that men are all rapists, and throwing child like temper tantrums.
DS: Gendered insults are not cool.
I have taken up Sam Harris’ challenge of living life without lying – ever. It’s not easy, but it’s not hard if you understand why it’s so beneficial.
You could take up the challenge of never calling anyway a d***, b****, c*** or p**** ever again. It’s not easy, but it’s also not hard if you realize how beneficial it can be.
Imagine if you never had to see the words n*****, f***** or p*** ever again?
Be a part of the solution!
I see DS subscribes to the Humpty Dumpty school of word definitions.
(I sure hope that was sufficiently polite.)
“And I deserve the right to call anyone a nigger faggot. And get called on it when I do.”
and I love how quickly you came up with that one and how willing you are to use those words. Even though they are SO HURTFUL. Shows your true colors I think. People who hate slurs should hate them in all circumstances. You hypocritical fucking idiot.
DS:
The commentariat here does. Gender-based insults (towards women and men) are frowned upon. It’s that simple. They are harmful, they a part and parcel of deeply entrenched, systemic sexism.
If you can’t figure out a way to insult someone without leaving gender out of it, that’s a bad reflection on you.
You can use all the ‘tactical’ insults you like. Just don’t expect to get taken as anything but a sexist, when deciding to use words you know will be perceived as such in the venue you’re speaking in.
I’ll stick with being ‘tactful’, good-mannered, whatever you want to call it.
Golly gee, Cameron! I never heard that argument before about why cunt is not a sexist insult.
Stick your fucking brain in the cunt of a decaying porcupine.
*anyone
Nope, pretty one-sided here. The MRAs and their sycophants were and still are wrong, and we were/are right. That’s not hard to figure out, if your brain and empathy works.
DS:
It was used as an example to show you why you shouldn’t use miserable bitch, you ignorant fuckwit.
Pteryxx,
Sorry that you feel slighted. I’ve got major depression(runs in the family), my wife is bipolar, and my brother has Asperger’s. I tend to be a little loose with the terminology, but it isn’t meant to be a slight. Absolutely no lumping is intended, believe me.
Secondly, what? Stalking an harassment and threats are common AND not a sign of some sort of issue? I’m not sure I’m following you there. It may be common, but that’s a sign of a societal issue, not an excuse for it. And I don’t mind lumping in all forms of stalking and harassment, since it is better to over-emphasize the harm, rather than to minimize it. I also meant to add “that’s what Abbie Smith does” to the comment about Markuze. That stuff on ERV was seriously fucked up.
@Caine, Fleur du Mal: no biggie, I know that this is an emotional issue that brings out defensiveness in pretty much everyone involved from every angle. Trust me, my first instinct was to hit you as hard as you hit me… but if nothing else, hitting back sort of makes me a hypocrite, right? If I’m advocating dropping grudges and shunning rather than stalking, jumping into a huge grudge with you would make me look like an ever bigger idiot! :)
In the future, I hope you at least recognize that I’m a well-meaning asshat, and not the evil kind.
Yes, your are a misogynist scum, who won’t listen to anything that might impinge upon our wittle, wittle, ego and similar sized manhood.
Bolded for emphasis because you are obviously an idiot. The point and the irony flew some billion miles above your head.
—–point——->
(imagine wooshing noise here)
O <- DS
@Daz: You really shouldn’t. Gender based insults are bad even when you’ve used them so much you can’t remember that they’re gendered. Mkay?
DS: Are you consciously trying to win the idiot of the year award or is it a natural talent?
Caine, you ignorant fuckit, that doesn’t excuse it for someone who seems to be SO CONCERNED with hurtful words and slurs. He really had to say NIGGER FAGGOT to prove his point, really? Isnt that what all you motherfuckers are telling me, you dont have to use such words to prove a point?
I have to admit, when I first heard of elevator gate, my initial gut response was somewhat close to Dawkins’ actual response. However, I didn’t make any comment right away and instead read more about what actually happened. As it turns out the scale of her comment was grossly exaggerated and had I know the truth from the get-go, I would have been on her side all along.
Turns out she didn’t make a big deal out of it, but that it was just a remark about being more thoughtful of other people’s feelings. That’s something we should all get behind.
Once more, DS misses the point. (Except for the quills up his ass.) I did not call you that term.
Foolish fuckface.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls,
My dad was a war protester who was drafted into the Vietnam War, got two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, and when he got back to the states was drummed out of the Army for testifying against a white NCO who assaulted black soldiers out of racism, and then went back to protesting. “With us or against us” sounds facile to me, and invoking Vietnam over a turn of phrase sounds like you’re minimizing the horror of that time in history.
Also, I admit that my phrasing wasn’t so great… cut me a bit of slack, ok?
ARGHHHHH!!! WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS WOMAN???
I’m going to give you a fucking clue Steve, since you clearly can’t see it flying over your head.
That bile you hate so much? That’s a feature here. It’s the reason why we all love this place so fucking much.
You think its a bug? Then fuck off.
Oh, and the fact that your a gay black man doesn’t automatially qualify you as an ally. Does it make it more likely? Yes but there are plenty of women who are anti-feminist, who are sexist. Therefore, you qualify as an ally after you show you are one. Saying sexist shit doesn’t help the cause.
Sexism is a hard thing to break. I will admit to saying things that were wrong before thinking about it. But here’s the thing, I then realize I was wrong and make a conscience effort to stop saying sexist shit. No one is truly non-sexist, its a matter of fighting and lowering the degree of sexism since it’s ingrained in us by society.
And you know what? Pharyngula’s no holds bar approach helps a fucking lot when it comes to raising awareness and being less sexist. Its helped lots of people including me. If it doesn’t work for you, find somewhere that does or shut the fuck up and learn.
Psst. Janine is a female person.
DS:
Simply because you fling the word bitch about with abandon does not make it right. Supra, you stated that nigger faggot was hurtful. I’d agree with that, and you wouldn’t find me using those words as an insult in an argument.
Now, people have been repeatedly telling you that bitch or miserable bitch or ____ bitch are just as hurtful, harmful and pointless when it comes to an argument.
Instead of grasping this point, you decide to call me a bitch. Apparently this is extremely difficult for you. I wouldn’t call you an ignoramus now, because you can’t use ignorance as an excuse. (By the way, being ignorant isn’t a bad thing, as long as you learn and correct it). However, at this point, I will say you are being willfully ignorant. That’s a whole different kettle.
You just love calling people bitches and you don’t care about any words which don’t personally affect you. That’s not putting you in a good light, to say the least.
You know I almost responded with something equally stupid and insulting. Instead I’ll settle with fuck you, jackass.
Oh yes, yes they do, you self-righteous punk. You might know what’s like to be black but they know what it’s like to be women which you don’t and probably never will. Don’t try to make this a contest between who here’s suffered most. That cheapens everyone’s experience.
Gnumann
I think you missed my point. I know quite ardent feminists who use the word over here, but I also know that American feminists see it differently, and so would amend my language as appropriate to the venue. Which is what I was trying to tell DS s/he should do. (Actually, I don’t use the word much, myself, anyway.)
We’re talking about systemic, toxic sexism, Cupcake. Now shut up, the adults are talking.
I dunno, Mr. Arghhh, why are you still talking about that woman? (politeness tip: she does have a name)
we’re not. We are talking about the idiots who are heaping scorn on a woman for gently telling them to treat humans as humans.
Are you one of the idiots? (Use of caps don’t count towards “no”)
Shorter DS. I can call a bitch a bitch. But no one better use the word “nigger”.
Also, please read my name before you call me “he”.
Foolish fuckface.
@ Arghhh
Because it’s obviously a subject that still needs to be talked about? There’s plenty other pages on the world wide web if you don;t want to get involved in this one.
IndyM @ 63;
All we need now is a venue, some plastic sheeting and duct tape to dress the ‘kill room’, some extra-strength refuse bags, and a marine trench to dump the remains in*.
Afterall, we must be neat monsters…
* Once again, to avoid quote mining and hand waving, swooning tirades about ‘teh horror’ of the evil baby-eating atheists, we are joking. This is not a death threat…
Well, I’m joking anyway. I assume IndyM is too…
You are joking, right…?
;-P
It occurs to me saying that the word cunt has lost all its meaning and therefore it’s not sexist is very convenient for sexist people.
@ DS –
I’m sorry, have we met?
Caine, Fleur du Mal:
I’ll have another beer, but where am I supposed to pee? I get one whole flush, and then the tank is empty for good!!
Anyone using the word “bitch” except for illustration purposes: Stop. Just fucking stop. Insult and attack isn’t just about the mouth that speaks or the fingers that type, it is about the ears that hear and eyes that see. If you’re using words, you are communicating. If you are communicating, it is meant to be a message between you an another person. If the people you are communicating with tell you that a word is communicating negative things, whether you mean it to or not, if you CARE about communicating with them you should stop using that word.
Julian, you self righteous internet asshole. fuck you too jackass. See, this is what the conversations devolves to here among you hypocritical, hypersensitive politically correct types. You are the worst caricatures of liberalism.
And yet an other person who does not understand that this never really been about Rebecca Watson. Well except for those fools who go out of their way to try to make her life miserable.
Here’s some advice. Maybe you need to step away from this thread for the rest of the evening. You’ve dug a hole, and the first rule of holes is to stop digging when in over your head. And you are there. Silence lets you come again on another thread and be judged afresh. Think about that.
Hey, genius, be less indignant for five fucking seconds and try to see what people are telling you. That so fucking hard?
This…
This! I meant to include something like this in my post.
DS:
Janine is a woman who happens to be lesbian. Yes, she needed to do that to make a point, which wasn’t enough, it seems.
You were immediately hurt by those words. It should not have been difficult for you to then extrapolate: “if those words are hurtful and harmful to me, then perhaps bitch is hurtful and harmful too and I shouldn’t use it seriously or casually”.
As you keep refusing to get the point, I’ve come to the conclusion that you’d simply rather be a hypocritical douchecake who wants to whine and scream about any words you find personally hurtful while hurling them at everyone else.
Go back under your rock, asspimple. It’s where you belong.
Really, really we should just ask men before commenting to sign up for any forum with a female-sounding name and observe the consequences. Maybe that would quell some of the “she must have been leading them on” assumption that we see so often. And maybe it would translate into other arenas.
Is there a “politically correct as an insult” field on the Bingo! card? Because there really should be one.
Compared to you cupcake, who is the worst charicature of troglodytes.
“I used to be passive-aggressive; now I’m just a jerk.”
Seems to me that ‘passive-aggressive’ has been taken out of the psychiatric diagnostic list.
I don’t even know what to say about this absurdity anymore other than it makes me wary of the atheist/skeptical community. I used to think how great it would be to live in an area with a skeptic/atheist community, but now that I’m living in such an area, I find that I’m less enthusiastic than I once was.
Is this what I face if I get involved in the atheist/skeptical movement and I make a short, passing comment that some people think is out of line? Months long frothing, websites dedicated to bashing me, people I’ve never spoken to calling me names, having my e-mail fill up with hatemail, being told that I’m ugly and should be raped?
I’m . . . disheartened.
@Arghhh: Idiot. We are not just talking about “this woman”; we are talking about a simple incident that ignited a huge conversation on sexism. If everyone were reasonable, intelligent, and open to examining their privilege and listening, we would NOT still be here talking about Rebecca Watson and ElevatorGate. And if you were smart enough to understand the scope of the problem that ElevatorGate illustrated, then you’d be smart enough to know that making such a comment is idiotic.
Doesn’t it bother you that a woman who simply said, “Guys, don’t do that” is being roundly attacked and threatened on a daily basis? Don’t you think that this is something worth talking about?
Well, now that the bile from the side I’m in extreme agreement with has passed all reasonable bounds, I’ll reiterate my opinion – and it’s simply MY opinion, which is based on limited reading and some BBC radio adaptatations – that Sir Terence David John “Terry” Pratchett is simply an interesting writer of the D. Adams mold, but not as witty or with more sympathetic characters. Further, this is merely my opinion, and it doesn’t bother me in the least that many love and respect him far more than I do.
His rabid – pretty much a literal use of the word here – fans here are free to redirect their bile towards an entirely ho-hum subject now, as the waters are well-chummed and it’s be a waste not to contnue the feeding frenzy.
I have work to do, but I’ll check back to see if the folk here are anything like they claim. I expect many are, but far too many are not.
And I will be delighted to be very wrong.
cicely, Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac @ 81;
You see, they can’t be sexist. Afterall, some of their best friends are women. They even let them use their bathrooms…
Not only has jose hit the bullseye, he obliterated the target. QFT.
Julian:
Lose the word punk. There was a long discussion here a while back with SG over the word*, which is often used in the same manner as faggot. So cross it off your insult vocabulary please.
*Yes, we all know it has other meanings. Nonetheless, don’t use it.
Ass pimple LMAO you white people come up with the funniest curse words.
Wow, dude, ok. Learned my lesson. Next time someone you comes around I’ll ignore them. You obviously never had anything to add to the discussion but felt it your god given right to call the women here miserable bitches so it just had to happen.
God damn it. Hey, Improbable Joe. Think you could send me a bear over the net?
Oh I second that suggestion. Tone bullshit shows up in every thread like this. I was reading the Atheism has a sexism problem and both of these threads have the same tone crap. It’s either your tone is hurting the cause or your hypocrite for liking swears, just not gendered ones. So goddamn tiring to read.
After staring at a blinking cursor for five minutes or so, I still can’t find the right words. Misogyny in the atheist community? How could that possibly be? The atheist, after all, knows that women have been treated like dirt for millenia by men who claim to be holy.
Just hours after elevatorgate broke, I expressed the opinion that Rebecca could hardly feel threatened–after all, it was a fellow atheist who propositioned her. We’re all enlightened, aren’t we? The guy might have been clueless, but dangerous? That’s preposterous.
But it’s sinking in now, and I don’t like it one bit. There are dangerous and hate-filled people who don’t believe in god. There, I’ve said it. Having seen the evidence, I cannot deny it, much as I would like to. So I’ll go on, trying each year until my last to become less naive.
PZ, you have influence in this community. I’m glad to see you using it in this way.
“Must be sacked from the SGU”?
How odd. I had no idea getting up in the middle of the night to record a podcast was a wellpaying job to which Watson was elected by popular demand.
What’s that essay? “Entitlement and the modern fanboy” – or something like it. By Wednesday White of the defunct Websnark.
Caine. when did I whine and scream??? If somebody calls me that i would either ignore it or respond in kind. What I WOULDNT DO is make an international fucking incident out of it and cast it as if I had been lynched or gay bashed.
Sili, it’s Entitlement and the Modern Fandom. Good stuff.
DS:
I’m not white, fuckwit. Nor am I hetero. I’m not male either.
To be fair, I have mentioned Richard Dawkins a couple of times when commenting on rapes in elevators, rapes of children, etc. — on the grounds that they should have been perfectly safe if only they’d pushed the Stop button or whatever.
PZMyers #11
Share The Hate, baby. Share The Hate.
DS:
Every single post has been a whine about you wanting to use gender-based insults.
The screaming is evident.
Really? Think I could get pointed in the direction of that thread? Don’t plan to use the word again but I’ve honestly never heard it used that way.
If you’re not white you curse white, fuckwad.
DS, why not just fade into the bandwidth. All you have is attitude, no cogency or intelligence. Attitude won’t get you anywhere, as we have plenty of our own.
If you know them well enough to give them some friendly advise, you might want to encourage them to think about their language then.
Using the female sexual organ as a bad word is a subtle, but powerful tool to repress female (and male) sexuality.
Think about it.
I’m not American, and I don’t give a rats arse about offending silly American sensibilities. They just happen to be right about this one.
Dig, dig, dig.
Nerd of Redhead
and why EXACTLY should I give a fuck about your opinion? Who are you? Nobody, that’s right.
DS @ 100;
So you seriously don’t see how these two insults differ? ‘Ignoramus’ is a non-gendered statement impugning a person’s intellect. ‘B*tch’, on the other hand, is a specifically gendered insult that fundamentally dehumanizes women by relating them to female canids.
Then there is the differing hsitory of the terms. ‘Ignoramus’ has been used to dismiss people on the basis (whether accurate or not in any given instance) that their arguments are without merit. Conversely, ‘b*tch’ has been (and continues to be) used to dismiss a person by sole virtue of their gender, or, when applied to a man, is used to dismiss him by comparing him to a woman, as if womanhood itself should be devalued.
It seems pretty clear to me that there is a clear qualitative difference between the two terms.
Prejudging people’s race by an expectation based on language, perceived intelligence, etc. Wouldn’t that be kinda racist, don’t you think?
Okay. Then we won’t create web sites slandering you and send regular e-mail threats. We cool?
@julian
Send you a bear? I’m tethered to my phone, I might could send you a small bear GIF.
I can’t believe this is still going on. I only know the basics of what’s happened because I was trying to stay out of it and not take sides. Let’s just move on.
I will state that sometimes people aren’t aware of what their habits and words have on others and we should try to be more alert.
@Gregory Greenwood: “/jk” = “Just kidding.” :)
I love the idea of Skeptic Dexters, but I can’t even kill a fly (although I don’t mind if my cats do). (If I absolutely must kill an insect, I do it quickly and actually apologize to it.) I think the best weapons are rapier-like wit and reason, as used by you, Caine, Nerd, Janine, PZ, et al.
Oh, christ on a stick, really?!?! Rebecca has been threatened with rape and death. She didn’t make this an international incident.
And ignoring sexism isn’t going to help a fucking thing. All the little things like calling someone a bitch is sexism. Or are you going to say there’s no such thing as micro-sexism? Ever heard of a chilly climate?
And we are replying in kind, in the best way because we match their mouth foaming hatred with laughter and bile. We just have rule so we aren’t hypocrites, like not using gendered insults that uphold the sexist patriarchal system our society imposes on us.
Oh, and your hyperbole with the hypocritical nonsense and randoms caps certainly gives the impression of screaming and whining like a child because the little kid they pick on just took their toy back.
I have no problem with what Rebecca has said. I’m a little troubled by her decision to help Ann Althouse with her anti-atheist ranting on bloggingheads, though.
julian,
About punk
Also look at some of the comments before and after that one.
Now you’re just boring.
I see that DS is either not self reflective enough or not intelligent enough to get my point.
And I though it was rather obvious.
It seems that we have an other MaxH.
Don’t worry, DS. Most of the old timers here will understand what I mean.
I wonder how easy it would be to CLAIM to be a minority in blog comments just to make a point?
It’s kind of like the, “I couldn’t possibly be bigoted, many of my close friends are gay!”
IE: “I’m both black AND homosexual, therefore I couldn’t possibly have a blind spot when it comes to discrimination — you don’t have to tell *ME* about discrimination!”
If you want to see a nobody, hold up a mirror and look at your reflection. You’re an MRA loser from Loserville. All attitude and posturing, but no intelligence, as your miniscule penis head is too small for any gray matter. Hence, your opinion is the same as that of a decaying porcupine.
julian, I never knew that sense of “punk” either, but then I never really use the word, here you can find something:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/punk?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic
though it would be nice to learn more about its word history, but apparently “punk” originally meant “prostitute”
hmm, @Joe, you’re tired and I’m tired so I’ll try and make it really clear.
You were saying “reasonable people don’t stalk and harass someone they disagree with; only crazy people do that.” That’s wrong, because reasonable-seeming people stalk and harass all the time, especially when a woman is the target. They can get away with it because of the illusion that “reasonable people don’t do that”, much like rapists benefit from the “nice guys don’t rape” illusion, and bullies benefit from the “kids just being kids” illusion.
They’re not stalking Rebecca because they disagree; but they’re not just a few bad apples, either. They’re doing it to punish her for speaking and to make an example of her.
Feel free.
All the sane people are ready to move on, but the others won’t let us. As you can see if you bother to read this tread or any other.
Sometimes, it’s just not possible to be neutral. If you keep your mouth shut in the face of tyranny you’re nothing but an enabler.
Julian:
Yep. I’ll try and find it. If it was sciblogs I can, if it was here, ugh. The search function here is useless. Wait, found it: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/episode_ccxxxvi_i_may_skip_thi.php You’ll need to read the whole thread or Ctrl+F it. Search strange gods, you’ll find it.
DS:
DS
and why EXACTLY should I give a fuck about your opinion? Who are you? Nobody, that’s right.
You’re one hell of an idiot, I’ll give you that much. You’re incredibly one note as well. By the way, idiot, I don’t cuss “white”. I cuss creatively and intelligently, not like a one dimensional stereotype. Now it’s time for you to drop into my killfile.
Anyone can say the same about you. Except that Nerd is known and respect by most of the regulars here. And in the short time you have been commenting, you have shown a lack of reading comprehension.
But you make such a fine chew toy. The horde can keep their fangs sharp and their coats sniny.
(Am I using too many in jokes?)
Are there squares on the bingo card for “But I’m a woman or minority, I can’t be racist/sexist,etc”?
Or one for “Its a little thing, get over it and move on!”
Or one for hypocritical tone crap?
I’m on my phone otherwise I’d look myself.
As always thank you PZ for pointing out what should be obvious.
Janine:
:crosses tentacles: Ugh. I don’t even want to think about that waste of space.
“Anyone can say the same about you. Except that Nerd is known and respect by most of the regulars here. And in the short time you have been commenting, you have shown a lack of reading comprehension. ”
Most of the regulars here are truly nothing special and hardly impress with their intellectual acumen. Enjoy your circle jerk. You people actually think you are doing something…hilarious.
Dear Pharyngula commenters,
Please understand the difference between anger and hate. It’s one of the most important things to remember in all civil discourse.
At least someone is having fun. The most your clowning is giving me is a headache with a touch of nausea.
@Janine: DipShit does make a fine chew toy for the Horde, although I’d prefer one with less whine and squeak.
MaxH…the frat mascot?
Even if we’re making a point, can we use asterisks when we mention phrases like “miserable b****” or “n***** f*****”?
Seeing these things repeated over and over, even as examples, seems kind of offensive.
If we shouldn’t be using them we should *never* use them, even when they’re not directed at someone in particular.
IndyM @ 196;
So that is what it means…
*affects nonchalance*
Of course, I knew you were just kidding. honest…
;-)
In all seriousness, it was obvious we were both kidding, but in my experience it pays to be absolutely clear. Otherwise you just know someone is going to wilfully misinterpret the post.
I go to extreme lengths not to kill non-venemous insects. Opening windows and gently wafting flies toward them (in a fashion that doubtless makes me look bonkers) is commonplace.
But not with wasps. Wasps get no mercy. (I was stung as a child).
Why thank you, but I am not so sure I belong in such august company. Caine, Nerd, Janine and our most gracious host (among many, many others) all wield rapier-like wit (Caine likes to dual-weild with an offhand cupcake, and PZ’s tentacles allow him to wield several rapiers at once, hence the awesomeness of his posts), but I fear that what I produce is more akin to an enthusiastically, if inexpertly, employed rusty penknife of semi-coherent posts with poor spelling.
Michael Swanson:
Oh please. Spare us, eh? Do not even begin to start up with the Tone Trolling.
We’ve been on the frontlines of this for most of this year. We know what we’re doing.
@Michael Swanson: care to elaborate why this is a relevant reminder in this discussion?
Hi guys,
First time poster here. I enjoy reading the blog, but I seem to get the impression that this is not the kind of community I want to be part of.
Just_A_Lurker:
Is that really how things work here? Apparently, because the amount of bile and name-calling around here is appalling, from all sides here. Even if one is in the right, being insulting like this is just not helping. Us rational people should demonstrate that we can make a point without being hateful and rude. I get that sometimes self-righteous anger can be a good thing, but here it’s just not helping. Even if we’re in the right and the others are in the wrong. We should be better than them.
Cheers,
David
Thanks for the two threads re “punk”. This was when I was taking a leave of absence from TET… But very interesting indeed!
As important is being clear in what you say, and not saying idiotic things. It seems you need to address your own problems first.
Come back when you have and ready to apologise. Apologising for being an idiot is also part of civilised discourse, and one thing we can agree on (even you I trust, since you are wanting to be civil) is that you were an idiot.
Funny, coming from someone who can not or will not understand my very obvious point. You lack intellectual acumen.
Tell me, how fucking hilarious is it to call a bitch a bitch? Or were you speaking truth to power.
Pond scum.
Your concern is noted. You can now fuck off. Thank you.
Oh, and stop being such a clueless tosser.
Dear Michael Swanson,
Your concern is noted.
Rey:
That’s the one.
glenndavey:
No.
Gregory:
You do. That’s why you’re an OM.
Well, its gone midnight in Ol’ Blighty. An early morning awaits on the morrow, so I bid you all goodnight.
*retires to boudoir, sadly not in the company of an amenable lady*
I honestly don’t get complaints like this:
Look, you either enjoy reading the blog or you don’t. If the way things work here doesn’t suit you, how come you claim that you enjoy the blog? I mean, the language hasn’t drastically change recently so that your opinion could change along with it.
No. If you cannot read for context, you deserve to feel insulted if you read those words. When I used the words “nigger faggot”, I was making a point. I did not call anyone that.
David:
Oh goody, it’s one of the “you’re not helping” crowd. You’ll find, around here, that will merit you a hearty and cheerful Fuck Off.
We are. Go to comment #36, David R. See all those links? Click on them, one at a time. Then, shut the fuck up and read.
But on the other hand, what better way would there be to prove evolution as an ongoing concept and shared ancestry than by responding to “guys, don’t do that” by howling and flinging poop at anyone we don’t like?
Are you implying that that’s what Rebecca did? If so, would you like to make some pathetic attempt to back up that claim?
Beatrice,
You need to understand that when people say “I enjoy reading the blog, but……” they are lying.
@Gregory Greenwood: LOL–I’m the same way re insects! Perhaps the only ones I can kill without that much remorse are mosquitoes, especially after they’ve bitten me. But I try to shoo everyone else out (and I definitely look like an idiot in the process).
You’re too modest–you definitely belong in that august company. Your arguments are beautifully stated. I’m still somewhat of a newbie here, and I’m just always in awe of the Horde. I love this community.
Hiya Dave R,
Feel free to make non-bilious, non-rude comments of your own here. Some of us hardly cuss at all. Otherwise, see “tone trolling.”
Pteryxx,
I swear to Satan that we’re saying the same thing, maybe from two different directions.
PZ wrote:
Well, you did impale Jesus and put him out with the trash.
I swear to Satan…
Meh. That is the same level of joke as my co-worker who said, “I’m an atheist, swear to god.” when I let it be known what I believed.
@ Gregory Greenwood: Good night! I didn’t realize you were an OM… It figures. :)
Why ? Such asterisks serve no purpose. Everyone will still know what was said. If such words upset you then spend your days watching Sesame Street.
White guys, they curse like this: “Doo dee doo dee doo…”
Fucknose.
Bastionofsass, you got the wrong sect.
But is was strange that a Jewish person was fronting for fundies.
I’m not lying. I enjoy the blog. If PZ rants against the inane aspects of religion or even better, the damage it does to people, I can sympathise. I just don’t see how that it is the same as people here in the comments constantly shouting insults at each other. I mean, ultimately it’s “just not helping” (indeed). Shouldn’t that be the ultimate concern? How we can improve things?
I looked up the tone trolling entry. I understand that this refers to someone who attacks the people with opposing standpoints by addressing style rather than substance. But I’m not even taking a stand here on the topic at hand. I just think people are incredibly rude here. I think it’s a shame, because I think in the long run it is damaging our cause.
Anyway, it doesn’t look like I’m welcome here, so I’ll leave you to it.
Best,
David
Repressed memories. You should seek regression therapy immediately!
IndyM:
The Molly list.
@Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments
Sweet crispy chocolate-covered caramel Christ on a stick, did you really need to nitpick “swear to Satan”?!?! I sometimes throw in Wotan and Hera, for variety.
Don’t even ask me to describe Patrick Swazye in this context, no one will be going home happy tonight.
@Tim DeLaney: The point, you have got it. And you didn’t have it to start with. That is excellent news, thank you for posting this. It was a nice little island of warm fuzzies in this thread.
One positive aspect about this rehashing is that is really is working as a learning tool. Tim DeLaney isn’t the only one who’s said that he’s learned from this. Reading the bible makes atheists; reading the MRA-bile makes feminists.
Dave R, kindly refrain from leaving your ass print on the door when the door gets slammed.
David R:
That is Tone Trolling – caring about style over substance. You are saying any argument given is not effective and potentially harmful because of the tone of posts. Your reading comprehension is in the toilet, David.
Not one person said you weren’t welcome. If you have something to say, say it and take the responses you get. If all you have is whinging, you’re going to hear about it.
As you’re flouncing, however, be sure to stick that landing and don’t leave assprints on the door.
The comments are part of the blog.
Why did you need to look it up ? Surely you were already familiar with it, seeing as you were such a fan.
You are welcome so long as you drop the whinging and stop making idiotic comments. Saying sorry would help, if your ego will let you.
@Caine: Thanks!
pterryx@205 nails it. The world is full of people who behave well in some, even most, circumstances, but will be absolutely evil in their efforts to keep others “in line”, especially people they feel should be subordinate, including women and children.
“Supernova grade irony ?”
More like brown dwarf, compared to this wild and crazy guy whaling away at climate scientists on Czech president Klaus’s behalf:
http://motls.blogspot.com/2011/09/william-happer-vs-michael-maccracken.html
Not taking a stand on the topic at hand. Check.
Pointing out how rude the people are. Check.
Congratulations. You have mastered Tone Trolling 101!
Matt:
In fairness, I linked it upthread in response to our concerned Tone Troll.
DS, you can say what you want but you can’t dictate the response to it. So you can call people sexist insults, but don’t be surprised if they point out that you’re being sexist. THEY perceive you as sexist. Their perceptions aren’t yours to dictate. Got it?
Whenever I read “SGU” it tranlates as “Star Gate University.” Am I close?
Also, Dave R, just so you know; PZ allows the comments to be as they are because he likes it this way. The reason why there is a new site for this blog is because of the fear that National Geographic would have us tone down when they take over SB.
You talk with out knowing what the fuck is the situation is.
Assclam.
D[umb]S[hit]’s blather @ # 89 and Arghhh’s @ # 143 (which, if one word shorter, would’ve been passable, if still not intelligent) set me to thinking.
The MRAs & allies crapping all over Watson for the last several months have gone well past misogyny, for which they could find fresh targets all over the world many times over without trying. Lots of women have said lots worse about men, some with even less reason, possibly even a few with no specific justification at all.
And the Watson-haters have even gone beyond rage. I think of some of the things which have caused me rage lately (TEPCO’s Fusushima lies; the systematic greed & inefficiency of a health care system which has left me with years of debt; federal machinations against everything from Planned Parenthood to Palestinians to the Post Office; … you have a list too, right?) – and none of that makes me want to futilely harass an individual with no gain for myself or my causes.
All of this venom – particularly in this of all venues – does nothing but bring down wrath on the heads of the spewers. Those who understand psychology better than I may have some ideas why this self-defeating behavior is so persistent, but when I see continuous look-how-despicable-I-am-please-thrash-me bleatings in a sexual (but anti-erotic) context, I have to think that each and every one of the bleaters must feel very guilty about something very wrong that they, individually, did.
‘Fess up or shut up, guys!
Janine:
Aaaah, the classics…
DS: “I can’t be the oppressor, I’m the oppressed! Also, words don’t matter since I’ve decided they don’t. Black people should be treated the same as others but there are certain ways they shouldn’t talk. I’m also not sexist, because I say so.”
Sorry, Improbable Joe, but I had to call you on the use of an incredibly cliched joke. You upset my sense of esthetics.
Yes, I saw. What I was getting at is that people who read PZ posts and the comments on a regular basis will surely have already come across the term tone troll and know what it means. However it seems Dave R didn’t, which is another reason I question his claim to enjoy this blog.
Pierce:
You betcha.
I think that’s the case with some of them, yes. That did turn out to be the case with one particularly nasty person on a thread back at sciblogs, even though he continued with over-the-top defensiveness and denial. The rest of them? I think they really do believe they are put-upon and oppressed by us nasty, hysterical, castrating bitches and they go mentally frothy in the name of solidarity.
Well, Caine, we both used “ass print”.
*blush* thanks Echidna. It occurs to me, maybe this is why it’s important for Pharyngula to be a tone-immune place: because it’s instructional to experience the difference between honest passionate insults, and polite, hypocritical hatred.
I haven’t come across the term because I only started reading the blog recently.
So you’re saying, making any comment regarding the tone is automatically tone trolling?
I can’t believe that criticising people for being insulting is against the good tone around here. Well I surely learnt my lesson!
Just don’t expect anyone to take you gals/guys seriously then. You try to fight sexism? Fight ignorance? Good for you! I’d like to join in. But I guess this is a place where basic politeness when interacting with other people is frowned upon, so it’s not for me.
DS, #110:
Bwah. Do you mean “you reserve the right?” What a delightful Freudian slip. Talk about entitlement.
No surprise after reading the rest of the thread.
Nah, just a power play. If they can abuse a woman into silence then they’re still in control. Same thing that prompts people to beat their kids to death. Just as classy too.
Yeah. I just did a post on the same subject (having also seen Rebecca’s post). I was glad she called out Abbie Smith – because it was about fucking time.
Perhaps he enjoys the RSS feed, or did until it said something that seemed to fall short of kissing his ass.
Caine:
Yeah. That may be. But it’s still no excuse. (Not that I imagine that’s what you’re presenting. I’m just fucking angry at the bullshit I’m reading here from DS + Crew.)
How much empathy is required to realize someone might be more oppressed than you? And how much of a logical leap is it from there to realize part of their oppression is done with denigrating words attached to their genetic heritage? It ain’t that great a leap of understanding.
It’s not like they don’t have the excuse of ignorance. It’s not like this whole issue hasn’t been detailed out like an ISO-9000 compliant prison escape. (Yeah, I just said that. No, I don’t know what it means. I just know it’d have to be incredibly detailed.)
Anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty and a bit of stale leftover compassion would be able to understand. So if they choose to feel put-upon and oppressed, it’s because they fucking want to feel that way.
Okay, nigel. Deep breath.
Just_A_Lurker said:
There aren’t, but there should be! We may need a new card. Another good candidate is “Gendered insult isn’t gendered any more, so I can use it.”
I think you could count “Cunt,” “Feminists (RW) are just creating a culture of victimhood,” “Refers to a regular commenter by the wrong gender,” and “Shrill.”
And everyone else “deserves” the right to call you a misogynist. Yay!
Now you should familiarize yourself with the term “stick the flounce.”
Regardless of the situation may I always have the wisdom to behave appropriately for the circumstances.
You did not stick your flounce. And you left your ass print smeared on the door.
Remember, people, politeness above fucking everything else.
Dave R, bless your heart.
David R:
We do and we do a damn good job. I don’t have room for 20, 30, 40, 50 links to prove it to you. Go back to the archives and read. Better yet, go to post #36, click each link, one at a time and read. That was 3D4K (3 days, 4,000 posts, non-stop). Don’t you dare tell us we don’t fight.
You don’t want to be rude? You don’t want to insult or cuss? Fine – don’t do it. Not one fucking person is stopping you from being all sweetness, niceness and light. Go ahead.
We know what we do is effective, because people come back and tell us how they’ve changed their mind. This happens on all kinds of subjects, from creationism to sexism.
You resemble that remark.
Reminds me of “Gynofascists are invading the Manosphere”
Shibujiro
You mean when Rebecca personally decided not to bother with Dawkins anymore, and specifically asked that there not be some mass-boycott? That?
Only idiots would think so.
You mean the “stunt” as noted previously? What kind of “stunt” is that? It wasn’t “the first sign of pushback” by any stretch, it was a display of continued ignorance and misrepresentation.
You’re full of shit. Helping with what, exactly? RW spends a lot of time producing enlightening thought.
That is a really poor appeal to authority sort of fallacy, and a poor tautology as well. Nice work.
Do tell. Maybe I’ll look it up, if it isn’t a pain in the arse to find.
——
DS
Well, no, because that is perpetuating a sexist sort of insult, whether you find or use the term sexist or not. It’s exactly like calling things or people “gay” or “fag” when the intent behind the usage is pretty much divorced from any reference to homosexuality – it still carries the connotation. I do know a lot of people learned the insults at an early age, learning the origin or connotation much later in life. A more enlightened person still would not want to perpetuate their connotations, which one does when one uses them, intent notwithstanding.
See, you should understand the problems with perpetuating the use of these words, but instead reserve the right to use them by some strange transformation of the rights of minorities or victims. Just something to think about. I might even use some words in private, where I know listeners know they are just insults or curses (sort oflike god damn, or jesus fucking christ, when the people know there is no god or jesus or damning – but even these don’t carry the same baggage), but I would not do so with a wider audience, for the reasons previously stated. Maybe you see where we’re coming from?
Even here:
Pteryxx says:
Now, I’ve never associated crazy with anything like medical disorders. I wouldn’t call someone with schizo-affective disorder “crazy” or “nuts” for anything to do with the disorder. And I’d likely not use the word in their presence because they might take it the wrong way, which would be my fault, not theirs. But it really hurts some people to hear it, or to know that it is perpetuated among other people who do use such terms to describe and scorn people with real medical conditions. Same operation for the word “retarded” as an insult, which has always (and for much, much longer) had other connotations than the (long defunct) medical term “mental retardation”. Because there is a long history of people having hate for people with a variety of neurological dysfunctions (or simply differences).
—-
Cameron
Not sure what the hell The Social Network has to do with anything. It doesn’t matter what the intent was, or that the culture you are from assigns it a different value, or whatever. It is a misogynistic term by fucking definition.
I’m not sure there is any single term more misogynistic than that. And people use it in a misogynistic fashion. And you are perpetuating that, with intent or not, in a community which recognizes the word for what it is, and how it is used, in a thread about how women are treated negatively in society. Not sure what could more obvious than that. So when you are asked to stop, don’t dig deeper and get defensive. Recognize it for what it is, and move on. Owning the error in the next post would probably be a good step, too.
Watch this:
Daz says:
Get it now?
feralboy12:
And, “Here’s your porcupine. Pardon the stench.”
DS,
You mentioned not discerning a difference between “ignoramus” and “bitch.” The difference is in the gender association attached to the terms. In the case of “ignoramus,” the word itself does not connote gender, it simply indicates lack of knowledge, a condition which could apply to a person regardless of said person’s reproductive organs or how that individual identifies with a gender or genders.
In the case of “bitch,” the word carries a specific gender affiliation, even if the word is used in reference to an individual not of that gender, and even if the word is used as a substitute for “complain.”
Now, it may be that you don’t discern that. You may feel that the terms are equated simply by virtue of their use as pejoratives when in fact they are not equated, as both are used as pejoratives and one carries additional baggage as an insult based on gender.
If, in fact, you do not discern any difference between the two terms, you may find it useful to ask yourself why you don’t. I didn’t discern any difference for a long time, too, and it wasn’t until a series of discussions (including some here at this so-called “spiteful ghetto . . . of insecure gutter fascists,”) that I realized why I didn’t discern it. I didn’t discern it for a long time because I was immersed in a system that not only reinforced my not seeing it, but encouraged my own perpetuation of it. I’m still immersed in that system. It’s called, “Society.” It has many sub-systems, and it has some really cool features, like cooperation, and some really lousy features, like sexism. Living a long time in such a system means it was (and can remain) difficult to see the ways in which language can connote negativity strictly by gender-association. Important note: not all system and sub-system features are unchangeable!
In other words, “ignoramus” is better not because it’s less pejorative, but because it’s describing the problem (ignorance) without attaching to the problem some quality of gender. “Bitch” associates pejorative with gender. It’s a specific instance of a much longer and more deeply ingrained societal construct that associates negative qualities tacitly and explicitly with female gender.
Which raises another point about language, and the comments section here vis-à-vis your question of “who decides?” Issues of language and common communication spaces are decided by the community. It may be that we imagine each of ourselves as individual, snowflake-esque pioneers of language and “how I use it is not how others use it,” but the reality is language is mediated in community. Language is shared. So you may not see “bitch” as gender-biased, but iIn fact, your use of it reinforces gender stereotyping and sexism, even if you think it doesn’t, precisely because it’s yet another instance of a word used as a pejorative that links negativity with gender.
So I encourage you to ask yourself why you don’t discern the difference in the terms. Is it because there really isn’t a difference? Or is it because systematic and long-term sexism gets in the way? It’s challenging, because it’s hard to admit to sexism. There’s some very good content here in this thread alone that can provide perspective.
By way of encouragement, I’ll offer this: I, Robert, have demonstrated sexist behavior, and am at risk of doing so again, even if I didn’t/don’t realize at the time that the behavior was/is sexist, living as I do in an environment that has long privileged my gender-identity perspective over others. Therefore, it is incumbent upon me to remain vigilant against sexism (including the institutionalized variety) and to seek help from others (such as one might find in a community) in the course of said vigilance.
“Ignoramus” is better. I was an ignoramus on this particular issue for a long time. Now I work on not using gender-affiliated insults, as just one behavioral example. It’s not a super power, just movement towards less ignorance. My thanks to many in this thread for their continued vigilance and assistance.
Still learning,
Robert
Shak:
Yeah, me too. And I mean more than the video.
Dave R, it depends on the topic. But you’ll have to take everyone as they are.
pterryx,
It also occurred to me as I was writing that one of the reasons we bristle at the tone trolling is that we sometimes detect an attempt to put us in our place, rather than engage the argument on its merits.
Ian Stewart writes about how mathematicians argue passionately in a way that would normally result in deep social rifts, but it usually works out ok because the rights and wrongs of the argument can be objectively evaluated. Science has similar attributes of objectivity. Religion has no objective reality, and so the social conventions of politeness are the glue that prevent things flying apart, as they still do in the case of the anti-abortion protestors and WBC, witch hunts etc. The downside of hyper-civility is the protection of powerful transgressors -you just can’t say those things about nice Father X. It would be disrespectful.
whoof, and I also forgot that “polite” is frequently feminine-coded, much like “smile” and “be nice”. Blech! Screw that.
On the contrary, it’s good for the cause in the long run. You got evidence to prove otherwise? Or, like everybody else who advances this argument, do you just have feelings?
You know, no one’s blocking the door.
Note to David R:
See Robert’s post @ 285. Robert is a longtime commenter here, and that post is indicative of his style, which is polite, respectful and educational.
Not one person here has ever jumped all over Robert for not being rude. He simply does his own thing and is highly respected for it.
However, Robert does not whine about the rest of us crude language pirates. See the difference?
BTW, great to see you back, Robert.
@Inane Janine, OM, Conflater Of Arguments
… fair enough. I’ll be damned if I’ll let anyone try to get away with unfairly accusing me of being a bigot or sexist. “Troll” I’m usually pretty bad with, especially if someone accuses me of being a theist, since I’ve been an atheist since before half of the online atheists were even born (I’m 37, I’m not old!!!!).
On the other hand, style tips are always accepted, and I do my best to accept them as graciously as I can. I’ll do better to avoid cliche in the future.
Nigel:
I don’t know what it means either, but I like it!
:)
This must be the one place in the internet where being polite and level-headed, or advocating such terrible behaviour, makes you a troll.
But yeah, maybe you guys are onto something… maybe all the problems of the world would go away if we just were to insult each other more! Because clearly, my posts deserve a proper “shut the fuck up” comment, so thanks for enlightening me.
Improbable Joe, I did not call you any of those. I was just teasing you for using a cliched joke.
37? You whippersnapper. I am going on almost thirty years of being an atheist. It has been so long, I can no longer understand why I ever believed in the first place.
Caine, Fleur du Mal @ # 265: … they really do believe they are put-upon and oppressed by us nasty, hysterical, castrating bitches and they go mentally frothy in the name of solidarity.
“Solidarity” seems above most of their deep-in-a-hole heads. “Tribalism” might apply, but even that implies a coherent social structure rather beyond the mentalities displayed. Too bad the mafiosi already have a claim on “mob”.
Algernon @ # 270: If they can abuse a woman into silence then they’re still in control.
But they haven’t done so (just made her express some depression). By now even a teabag-brain could figure out that their efforts aren’t working, and weaker prey should be found.
Same thing that prompts people to beat their kids to death.
Most such cases that I know of involve alcohol (&/or other drugs) or explicitly stated patriarchal superstition. I haven’t studied the misoWatsonists extensively, but the ones who show up here spell too well for the former and conceal too well for the latter. (Also, I monitor a lot of wingnut/hyperchristian emailings etc, and Watson’s name hasn’t come up.)
@ Dave R
Politeness isn’t frowned upon here. Every time I’ve posted (all three times) I’ve gotten very polite replies. If, however, you act like a self-righteous twig on a mission to clean up the internet you’ll get your ass handed to you in a sack. Here’s a hint: If you like the community don’t immediately try to apply your standards to it.
Dave R.:
It isn’t being polite and level-headed. That’s actually OK. It’s the advocating those things. Not so much for the advocation, as the lack of evidence that being polite and level-headed is the only way to be.
It’s especially bad when you insist that being impolite is bad.
Janine:
45 for me, so you’re a whippersnapper too, Janine! Now get off my lawn.
David R, stop whinging for a moment and see post #291.
@Caine, Fleur du Mal
Wow. Seriously? “Tone trolling?” Asking people to be civil, trying to inject constructive criticism into a discussion, trying — pointlessly — to steer people away from things like “bitch” and “nigger” and “faggot” is such a bad thing?
And the “frontlines?” What? Are you diving on grenades?
You’re seriously fucking depressing. Fine. I’ll just shut my cocksucking retard fag dipshit dumbfuck mouth and you can polish your Purple Heart, hero.
No, wait. Fuck that. DO understand the difference between anger and hate. It’s the only possible fucking way to pull ourselves out of a 100,000 years of treating each other like complete shit. The only way out of murder and rape and slavery and war and bigotry and, well, hatred. What the fuck is wrong with that?
Sure you do. And when you do, I reserve the right to call you a misogynist asshole.
But, evidently one needs to explain some things to you about MISOGYNY.
Please provide a concrete example wherein someone would deserve to be called a “bitch”.
Evidently, as your following posts demonstrate, yes.
And it looks like we may have to do it again, since you still miss the point.
The party line WAS “don’t be a raging rape-apologist MRA asshole”. Can you describe an example in which a commenter could be counter to that and not be one?
Oh, we do.
But you, evidently, don’t.
Stop screaming and listen for moment, and you may learn that what we are talking about is not “this woman”, but actually people like you, and how you have been treating her.
That’s like saying that when a mob of axe murderers beat, mutiliate, and lynch a pair of jaywalkers, there was bad behavior on both sides.
Apparently you don’t get out much.
You can be polite all you want, just don’t try and regulate how much bile others can spew. There are those here that rarely cuss and are polite even to trolls, but you conveniently over look those. Notice how those polite people don’t tone troll the rest of us? Just like Caine said?
Also, I’m so sick of this stupid complaint. Cussing & bile doesn’t equal rashness or lack of thinking. Being polite doesn’t mean your a better critical thinker, debater or person.
This has to be on a card already, right?
Oh, and those other suggestions for another card are awesome. Can’t wait to get on my home computer to look them up. =)
Now, I’m just a simple ol redneck but even I can see Miss Rebecca had a good point and I happen to agree that women deserve the same respect and consideration as men. As for all the jackasses raising such a fuss at her, maybe the old fashioned method of correction would be appropriate. Whenever they stick their brainless heads up just shoot em. It’ll be good for the gene pool.
Well, your civil discourse is starting out very uncivil. Typical of tone trolls, which you are. I’m too busy laughing at fools to hate them. Hate requires work, and I’m old and tired for that. A good laugh gets the blood going, and lowers the blood pressure. You need to learn the difference between saying “this is what I believe, and this is the evidence to back it up”, which is civil discourse, and laughing at and insulting trolls that deserve all the bile they get.
If we’re going to go with THAT metaphor, then yes, actually, CAINE DID. MORE THAN ONCE.
As anyone who has bothered to pay attention to these threads for any length of time would know.
You talking about tone, instead of offering a real argument, hurts our cause, and yours. Ever think about that? What it says is that you have nothing “cogent” to offer, unless you know you won’t be called on stupidity. Which is what you likely offer, based on historical data of those who complain about tone.
Dave R
Rational people don’t give a rat’s ass about the tone of an argument, and whether it sounds “polite” or “rude” due to insult-words. Insults come about when people refuse to get the explanation offered repeatedly and keep repeating their own position with no argument to back it up whatsoever. We get sick of people telling us what is supposedly “polite”. Some of the most disgusting, ridiculous, hateful, and denigrating speech can be put across politely. Some people here and elsewhere put forth clear and rational arguments with some “rude” words in an honest fashion. I know which option I would take.
Then go join a group and donate your money and time to improving something, rather than whining here. Or take the opportunities for action when they are presented here. What is you difficulty? Go ahead, try to speak rationally to the MRAs and Watson hate club. Or are you just here to complain about tone? You haven’t said word one on the original topic, but we have heard from hundreds just like you already. If you don’t like the tone, do try another forum. There are many.
(As if this were the plotting center for a movement. (Not that it can’t be, on occasion.)Join a group that does stuff, or participate in such where it shows up here. So, what would you propose to do about what is in the blog article? Whys isn’t ridicule a weapon of choice? )
Rebecca – you rock!
Go get ’em!
Dave R: “This must be the one place in the internet where being polite and level-headed, or advocating such terrible behaviour, makes you a troll.”
I don’t know. Why don’t you try it, and we’ll see.
I’ll make this simple for you, David R.
Tone in service of substance? Good! (And this means the effective and appropriate use of BOTH polite and impolite tone).
Tone over/instead of substance? Tone trolling.
@Michael Swanson & Dave R: Here’s a website for you. Your “polite” comments will be appreciated there.
@Michael Swanson: Caine is a fucking hero, you doucheburger. Why don’t you pay attention to the substance of the discussions here as opposed to the tone? Everyone has his/her own style, which makes the discourse here so good. We listen and react, each in our own ways. If you can’t handle grown-up discussion, get the fuck out. No one’s stopping you.
Michael Swanson:
Yes. Seriously. Try reading the comments, Michael. Those of David R’s in particular and the responses to him. What makes you think the regulars here have no constructive criticism in their posts just because they might contain cusswords?
The reason that bitch, nigger and faggot came up was because someone was arguing for the right to use gender-based insults, which are not approved of here. If you had bothered to read for content and context, you’d know that. Instead, you’re reading for tone and missing one point after another.
Metaphorically, yes. Go to post #36 and read every single word at every one of those links. Where were you, Sugar? For many of us involved from the beginning, it was more difficult than you know, as many of us are the survivors of rape, murder attempts and assaults. (That includes men too). We were called much worse things than anything which has been said in this thread. If you focus on nasty words, you never get to the meat of the matter.
Sorry to shake your cloud, Sugar. Like all other Tone Trolls™, you don’t get the fine art of cussing. It’s dressing, not the salad.
What, exactly, makes you think we don’t know the difference between anger and hate? We don’t need a pursed mouth admonition from you. These are some Cupcake behaviours:
You’ve hit every single one. Being surface polite is no solution to anything. The reasons rapes take place is whole lot more complex than anger and hate. Same with murders and violence. One thread in that complexity is systemic sexism, the patriarchy and kyriarchy. Another thread is privilege.
We discuss these issues until we’re blue in the fingers. We keep doing it because it does bring about change. You want things to change, that’s great – you won’t bring it about by whining at us about our tone.
Michael Swanson
Thanks for the education. No one here had any clue. Thank gawd for you, Michael. Fucking great. You show us where the fucking pathological hate is.
Start by saying, “this is what I believe, and this is the evidence to back it up”, rather than mewling like a fuckwitted tone troll.
We do, you don’t, now run along to the intersuction, where tone beats substance every day of the week.
My my my…there is a point to be made about the difference between this being a white woman, rather than another ‘othered’ woman…
Bubba, @303 “Whenever they stick their brainless heads up just shoot em.”
Yes–most men should be killed as well, because it would make it easier for us all. If eugenics has a purpose, it should be eliminating males.
Michael Swanson, I want to show you something. This was a comment about Ms. Watson, made back in July, over here. Or perhaps here.
And you want to lecture us? You have work to do, Cupcake. Try going over there and talking to them.
This is a most hilarious comment, really.
You do realize, that on this thread, the use of “nigger” and “faggot” first appeared on a post whose explicit purpose was to steer another poster AWAY from the use of “bitch”, by providing an example, selected specifically to be relevant to the particular poster it was targeted to to ILLUSTRATE WHY using all three terms is a BAD THING?
Reading comprehension.
Try it. Learn it. Master it.
Don’t come back until you do.
(Well, come back if you want, but don’t expect to be taken seriously until you do.)
F:
Oh believe me, I do these things. Improving things is what I want to do with my life. And I’ll stop the whining now.
I am out there making my beliefs heard, don’t worry. I’m not saying you should be polite all the time (or the ridiculous straw man “politeness over everything” someone posted earlier), or even to these people. Just a bit more polite to people over here, including myself now. Because I don’t think I deserve to be insulted just because of what I posted.
But okay, that’s the way things work around here, I get it. All I wanted to do is to express my opinion about that, maybe give you a bit of an outsider’s impression on what this looks like, and now I’ll “shut the fuck up”… I have some science to do anyway!
(and yes I promise this time I’ll really shut up)
My my my…there is a point to be made about the difference between this being a white woman, rather than another ‘othered’ woman…
Bubba, @303 “Whenever they stick their brainless heads up just shoot em.”
Yes–most men should be killed as well, because it would make it easier for us all. If eugenics has a purpose, it should be eliminating males. They make it hard for most of us.
*starts the flounce betting pool*
It would be interesting to find out how many MRAs grew up in a religious, misogynist environment. That childhood poisoning can be extremely hard to shed.
Translation: Watson has boobs in public.
Huh? Of course it does.
I’m sorry, that’s a logical fallacy. Being discriminated against doesn’t automatically mean you have ever noticed how other people are discriminated against.
What a coincidence that you just used another insult that’s only ever directed at women.
Janine is a he now?
Reading comprehension. Work on it.
You know, somehow I doubt you’re really a black gay Republican.
We’re not having civil discourse. We’re talking about people who have threatened death and rape, and to people who try to defend their alleged right to use misogynist insults without ever being called on that.
Wasps are actually very easy to get out of windows. (Try that with a mosquito! Hah!) And when you put a whole sentence in parentheses, put the entire sentence in parentheses, including the period at its end.
We should call a spade a spade, and we should not foster the widespread but moronic prejudice according to which all halfway rational people have undergone the full kolinahr.
Can tribalism possibly improve things?
What else is it when we declare people “our own” and decide to, consequently, let every counterproductive stupidity they say pass?
Seconded.
…and very similar passionate arguments! Once I thought two colleagues were going to jump at each other’s throats in the next 5 seconds. I expected I’d have to intervene physically. The situation defused when one of them brought up evidence for his claim.
Into my quote folder. (Two amphiox quotes in one day…)
Are you trying to bait us into letting death threats pass…?
A polite, though possibly deserved, insult of David R.’s intelligence. Note the complete lack of cusswords.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
I’ll steal that!
Because the underlying problem, of which the whole Elevatorgate Atomic Fireball is merely symptomatic, still exists. Simple as that.
Take heart; I am confident that, soon enough, another sterling example will crowd Elevatorgate, and Rebecca Watson, into the background. Then we can all talk about some other woman and her detractors, instead. Won’t that be nice?
</bitter, snarky humor>
–
DaveR #268
No, but whining about tone, which is what you did, is automatically tone trolling.
I doubt you have. The Pharyngula commentariat cares deeply about what you say. How you say it is actually inconsequential. If you make a statement backed by evidence and logic, then you’ll be treated well by the Horde™. Being treated well does not mean you won’t be called rude, crude and socially unacceptable names, especially if people disagree with you. But, within our limits, you’ll be treated as an adult. However, if all you’re going to do is scold us about tone, you will have forfeited any claim for respect.
As it happens, we generally are taken seriously. That’s because we know how to debate, including backing up our positions in a reasonable manner. This is a very popular blog, not only because of PZ’s posts but also because of the regular commentators.
This is your second flounce. You’ve already lost points because you failed to stick the landing on your first flounce. If you deflounce again, especially if you continue your tone trolling, you’ll get even more derision.
As the late A. Bertram Chandler put it: “This is Liberty Hall, you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard.”
This is a bit off topic, but since we’re into tone trolling…
I don’t post often because I can rarely keep up with the threads and I often don’t have too much to add to the conversation, but when I do I’m really, really careful about what I say here. Not because I don’t want to offend anyone, not because I’m worried about getting mod slapped, but because if I say something stupid I will get absolutely hammered for it. And that’s fucking great! I like being held accountable and having good reason not to shoot my mouth of without a clue about what I’m saying. It makes me check facts and cite sources. It makes me learn. Even anonymously I don’t like being publicly shamed and that keeps me honest when I consider posting here.
Shorter version.
If you want to tone troll, kindly and politely fuck off.
Even if we’re making a point, can we use asterisks when we mention phrases like “miserable b****” or “n***** f*****”?
I wasn instantly reminded of:
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. — Desmond Tutu.
The problem with offering the “outsider’s impression” is that it requires jumping in with an opinion on a discussion that has been going on for months, while knowing fuck-all about the history of that discussion, or the people having that discussion, and not trying to learn about those things, while at the same time thinking that your opinion is so valuable and rare that you should share it anyway, because obviously no one has ever come here and made that point before.
Whew! I need to breathe.
feralboy@329, well said. Keep breathin’.
Well, I just had a really good rehearsal, so I’m not really sorry I missed the dust-up. After not playing the tenor sax for over two years, I’ve picked it up again and suddenly everything is smooth as buttah! I was hitting those low notes with no problem whatsoever! I swear, taking a break from playing music was the best thing I’ve done for my music playing in a long time.
DS, you’re a douchenozzle. I don’t care if you’re black and gay. Gay guys have sexually harassed me. Black dudes are frequently extremely sexist, especially (sadly) against women of color. None of those experiences gives you data about what it’s like to be a woman in this society. I know what it’s like to lack male privilege and to have white privilege. I think your telling people that they “swear white” is just reinforcing racism, honestly. You’re the type of black person who makes other black people feel that by being intellectual, liking metal bands, or dreaming of being an accountant instead of a baseball player, they’re somehow “betraying the race.” The color of your skin doesn’t make your behavior any less despicable. I don’t really recall what I did to piss you off so much in the first place, but whatever it was was totally appropriate.
At the risk of “piling on”:
DS, I’m assuming that that you’re talking about RW, here, and contrary to what her more bile-spewing detractors claimed, she didn’t claim that Elevator Guy raped her. All she did was point out that the situation was one that she (and many, if not most, other women) found uncomfortable, possibly dangerous.
In case you tuned in late (I don’t think so, but I admist to having left the EG fray early on accounta it was so damned depressing), 1) women do have to concern themselves with watching out for and avoiding dangerous men and situations (but the men aren’t labelled “rapist” or “non-rapist”, making the first hard to determine; and “trapped in a small space with no help in sight” is a textbook example of the second, in fact one that police specifically warn women to avoid).
And so, she basically said…yeah, guys, don’t be that guy. Don’t set up that situation.
Where, in this, is the part where she “[made] an international fucking incident out of it and cast it as if [she] had been raped”? And if you don’t think she has been “[woman] bashed”, then you have not been paying attention.
–
Would bet dollars to doughnuts Mother Courage (#319) is this poster from ERV’s place, Poe-ing.
@ Caine…
Killfile!!! ever since the move here the killfile for greasemonkey doesn’t show up. Any advice on how to enable it here? It still seems to work over at Sciblogs but not here.
Also, thanks again to you and Janine and Nerd et al for taking on the MRAs, apologists, clueless, obtuse, willful etc. These threads, though sometimes hard to wade through, are often entertaining, and also instructive.
It may have been the last iteration back on Sciblogs, but amongst the flames someone had mentioned that women who are less than “optimally pretty” are ignored, dismissed or otherwise have their contributions to any situation minimized. As usual, my first reaction was “oh baloney!” until I followed a link (can’t remember which now) read, digested, and then began to check my own behavior around women who did not fit my own idiosyncratic definition of “pretty.” Sure enough, I found that I spend more time engaging in eye contact with “pretty” women, listen longer when I ask them questions and otherwise spend more of my extremely valuable time (cough) engaged with people whom I perceive as attractive.
I also began to pay more attention to differences in how I split my time between genders. And it turns out I seem to give more weight to what men are saying than to women who are in the same conversation. This is, of course, only anecdotal, and highly biased since I am both the observer and the observed, but I’m a pretty good observer. In general.
So, I’ve had to start re-wiring myself to divvy up my attention based less on gender and attractiveness and more on simply who is in the room and doing the speaking at the time. It ain’t easy breaking 50 year old habits, but I want my daughters to live in a better, more equitable world than the one up in which I grew. (take that, Mr Churchill.)
SallyStrange:
Going by #90, something to do with fat acceptance, apparently. Who knows? At the rate we talk, it could be bloody anything from anytime.
With a side-order of implied subservience and subordination. If you don’t think so, think consider the sentence, “You’re my bitch!” The implication there is clear; “You’re less than I am! I rule you!”
–
.
bybelknap:
SG put sterling work into getting the killfile working here. Go here: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Greasemonkey and click on killfile for freethoughtblogs.com, install the script. Afterwards, right click on greasemonkey (or however you need to do it) and make sure there’s a checkmark next to Ftb Killfile. You should be good to go!
bybelknap:
That may have been Tielserrath.
bybelknap #333
Go to greasemonkey, select manage scripts, and find a script called FtB Killfile. That’s the one that works here.
Bill Door:
I don’t know, I won’t click on erv’s place at all and “Mother Courage” went straight into the killfile.
Dave R:
Absolutely clueless to the end. On your self-proclaimed first post, and thereafter, the only thing you did was try to change the behaviour of other posters. If you want to do that, you need to have some credible reason why people should follow you, unless you are taking it for granted that you have the right to put people in their place.
“I have some science to do” – as if. If you are writing a thesis, or you write academic papers for a living, then there is no way you would write “Us rational people” as the subject of a sentence (as you did in your first post) unless you were making an obvious jest. If you write academically for a living, you can’t afford to allow careless, or clueless, grammatical errors to appear in your professional work, and your casual writing will reflect that. Any grammatical errors used by a professional writer will be deliberately placed for effect (or lamented soon after). Have you noticed how, typos aside, the vocabulary and grammar of most comments by the regulars on Pharyngula are pretty much impeccable? And this group is by no means made up of all scientists.
Therefore I call BS on the idea that you have science to do. I think you protest too much that you are “one of us”.
Echidna:
Hee. Oh, pardon my amusement, Echidna. You must have missed donkane in this thread. Him is a geneticist, oh yes!
Dave R, sometimes clearing your throat and politely doesn’t even register on your audience’s radar, and you hafta smack ’em up-side the haid with a dead fish. Or a porcupine.
;)
Seriously, once upon a time, I’d have agreed with you; but time and observation suggest (from where I sit in the bleachers and throw pop bottles) that calm reason is only effective on a minority of subjects. It’s a valid weapon, and by all means, wield that sucker; but know that, for some hard heads who don’t recognise themselves in the mirror you’re trying to show them, only a really ripe, dead marlin will do, and your best bet is to simply stand clear so that someone else can get in a good swing.
–
Cicely:
From what I’ve observed, the biggest problem of accommodationists and others who favour the kinder, gentler approach is that rather than doing it, they prefer to whine at those who have a different approach.
I pointed out Desert Son’s post to Dave R. Robert, like Sastra, has always been consistently polite and respectful, writing out thoughtful posts. Both Robert and Sastra have a distinctive approach and use it. Not once have they ever been taken to task for it. Rather, they’ve garnered a great deal of respect from the Horde™.
When someone prefers to whine at others, repeatedly, instead of simply tackling the subject at hand in their preferred polite, civil manner, it speaks volumes as to their actual intent.
Obviously, we need to get the missionaries in here to remind you. To start with, there’s this really neato book that they want you to read…
Caine,
I did miss DonKane, so I followed your link. It’s hard to imagine a geneticist who uses the word “phenotype” so loosely. I don’t know of an expert in any field (whether car mechanic or academic) who uses precise terms inappropriately – it would brand them as an idiot immediately.
Dave R:
Y’know, if I had a nickel for every time a tone troll said exactly this, I’d have near enough to buy myself a dinner at Applebees.
Seriously, dude. What you wanted to do was to tell us all how to behave. You wanted to tell us that we should all be nicer, that we should perhaps tone down our anger or frustration or whatever the fuck is bothering us.
Oh, I know what you wanted.
But you’re missing out on what we want.
We want a world in which people use their fucking brains. We want a world in which evidence counts for something. We want a world in which a person can say, “Look, you might not want to behave in this fashion because it’s fucking crass” without having a whole fuckton of blogosphere descend on your ass for the audacity of addressing male privilege.
No. Instead, you gotta focus on what you want.
Well, you know? For just this once, fuck you. Most of the time, you get your way — but just for now, fuck you. For just this instant, we don’t want to hear the same fucking excuses fall out of your mouth.
Now, I might feel a bit strange saying all this, since I am a privileged white male. (Actually, I’m also a member of a registered American indian tribe, but I was raised essentially privileged white male.) But, several people I love and care about are gay, or transgendered, or female, or black, or just generally not accepted by your average run-of-the-mill Tea Partier. So I’m gonna say it anyway:
I’m fucking pissed. I’m angry. And if you think I should hide that, you’re fucking wrong, Mister. My anger is far more effective than the quietest, most rational tone I can muster — because the people who are so irrational to believe marriage shouldn’t count if you’re not of opposite sex won’t listen to anything but anger.
So fuck you, and fuck your opinion. It’s a stupid opinion, and one that isn’t backed up by empirical evidence. You’ve got nothing but your feeling that we should be more polite. And that feeling ain’t worth the feeling a Christian has when thinking about their Jesus. Because you should know better.
So forgive me if I don’t take your opinion seriously. And forgive me further if I think you’re a fucking asshole for assuming your condescending opinion actually fucking mattered.
Actually, I know donkane in real life. He is a geneticist, a good one, and he was using “phenotype” perfectly appropriately.
PZ:
Okay. I wasn’t referring to the phenotype business though, but his obtuseness when it came to grasping simple points about women entrenched in patriarchal religions.
You reminded me of this idea I read once and I wish to Zod I could remember where: Observers will describe a mixed-gender group discussion as being “dominated” by women if women speak about 30% of the time. So, our literal perception of the loudness and invasiveness of someone’s behavior is inversely proportionate to their privilege. Black women are perceived as like the LOUDEST PEOPLE EVER because they have no right to speak at all.
I think the perception of “politeness” works exactly the same way. There’s almost nothing a white dude can do that won’t be excused if he just has enough privilege, but anything short of smiling acquiescent meekness is hostile when it comes from a woman. In order to be sufficiently polite for her station in life, a woman has to essentially shut the fuck up and speak when she’s spoken to by her betters. And for black women or queer women or fat women or disabled women, you know, pretty much the only way to be polite enough is to try to stop existing.
Caine,
I checked out your link to DonKane wielding “phenotype” so sloppily. Faking expertise as a geneticist on a biologist’s blog is hilarious.
The people participating in the abuses against rebecca watson are stupid assholes, and have been since day one.
the reason I’m posting in this particular thread though, is to add my cries to a sub-topic that’s been mentioned above.
I haven’t followed this terribly closely, because I can’t spare three hours a day to read comments.
I have spared some hours though, and have been introduced to new concepts I’d never really thought about before. If I found myself confused or in question about a particular of one of those concepts, there wasn’t any chance in a thousand imaginary hells that I was going to ask it here, primarily because Caine, while frequently brilliant and hilarious, also frequently bites first.
I don’t oppose vulgarity, or troll crushing.
I simply ask, for those among us not so bright or succinct, allow us to say two stupid things before you sink your teeth :p
P.S.
I do believe that everyone deserves to say whatever they want all the time – its just, if it’s really dumb the shit’s gonna fly, and I’m enjoying it thoroughly.
My sincere apologies.
Echidna:
Quite honestly, I don’t know enough about that to say one way or another. I leave that to more knowledgeable people. What did bother me was his density at understanding clearly stated explanations about women in church activities. He was either very obtuse or simply wanted to deny what people were saying and did a bad job of it.
Nigel:
:Clenched Tentacle Salute:
Boggsj:
Don’t be afraid to ask questions because of me. Yes, I often bite first and when I’ve been wrong, I apologize. Believe it or not, I can generally tell the difference between a doucheidiot and someone who is confused and asking honest questions.
We often do get people here pretending to ask questions, but they aren’t honestly asking, and that can lead to jumping first at times. You’ll notice, in the sexism/feminist threads, I post links early – that’s me attempting to be not overly vicious immediately. Sort of.
This year hasn’t exactly been an easy one, when it comes to this subject. Generally speaking, we do have a 3 comment rule, where we aren’t supposed to lunge fangs first until a person has had 3 comments to express and clarify their position.
If I have bitten you, I apologize.
@172, 155
I realise men are privileged and all but what’s the difference between “cunt” and “dick”, or “tool” for that matter?
Apparently some are arguing the original meaning of a word is the one that counts, ‘destroying’ my argument that cunt no longer means what it did. What about ‘fag’? Only recently has it been applied to homosexuals and not cigarettes (faggot, for that matter, has older meanings as well). While I agree the term fag should no longer be used unless you’re British (or Commonwealth) and talking about cigarettes, it does show the meanings of words can change for the better or worse. Such as bugger.
I attribute the lack of out cry from the NZ and Australia gay community about the use of bugger on national TV news to the fact that they realise the word bugger has lost its meaning and people aren’t trying to be mean to gay people. Just like how I don’t wish to insult women when using the term cunt. Saying cunt doesn’t make me sexist (unless I intended it to be sexist and insulting to women). I think there must be bigger issues for feminism than the word cunt.
@Daz,
Noticed how I said I was unsure how most Americans (apart from feminists) interpret the word cunt? They could well indeed agree with us. Also, how do we know C.C. isn’t from the commonwealth?
@282,
Did you even read Rebecca’s post? How did you miss The Social Network connection?
Since TSN didn’t have a link between the NOUN (tech geek/woman/jew/black person) and insult (asshole, cunt, kike, n*gger), we should ASSUME C.C. also intended for there to be NO LINK between the NOUN (woman) and the INSULT (cunt).
It seems like no one is allowed to criticize feminists as I have even seen female members of this forum be attacked alongside males for disagreeing with a feminist blog PZ has linked to. I get the whole idea about shutting up and listening but someone once suggested for men to cross the road if they are walking behind a woman as not to make them feel uncomfortable. I’m sure a lot of girls are uncomfortable about having black men walk behind them as well but this does not mean they have the right to tell them to cross the road. Sexism doesn’t trump racism or vice versa.
I would think (from a male perspective), focus should be on equality in salaries, woman in higher positions or professional jobs and more time of for maternity leave or parenting etc, not the shit that crops up on this forum about the use of the words “female” and “cunt”. Seems like a waste of talent and time, this forum.
I am a bit dismayed that this thread has mutated from a discussion of misogyny to a discussion of “tone” and “politeness”. Well, that’s the way threads go, and who am I to criticize the interests of those who post here? Anyway. I’ll follow the crowd and put in my two cents worth on the topic of tone.
Not that I expect anybody to have noticed (and why should they?), I personally use profanity sparingly. It’s a matter of personal preference. A friend of mine once observed that there are two kinds of people: those who say “apparently” and those who say “evidently”. Who is to say which is correct?
Well, some speech is just a matter of preference. But IMHO, there are terms that are never appropriate. Among these are “cunt”, “nigger” and “faggot”. “Bitch”, if used as a synonym for “to complain” is acceptable, but not if used as a synonym for “cunt”. I just don’t find acceptable language that conveys bigotry. It is protected by the First Amendment, but it’s not protected from my scorn.
Oh, shit! I’m starting to sound like a tone troll, and I don’t mean to. In the right context, these words would be acceptable, but generally not in a public forum. JMHO. Anyway, even though my personal preference is to avoid what I consider to be unnecessary profanity, I am perfectly at ease with the practice of many posters here of expressing themselves freely. I don’t like to be called a moron, but I am no more offended by being called a motherfucking moron.
Cameron:
This is very simple, Cameron. Gender-based insults should not be used, whether they are male-based or female-based. None of them are approved of here. Full stop.
You should not be defending their use. We already know that certain terms are considered to be no big deal in certain areas of the world. That doesn’t matter. The larger picture is what counts, and the usage of gender-based insults perpetuates systemic sexism. That is what matters.
It’s interesting how widespread the ‘boys will be boys’ and ‘well it’s the other person’s fault for daring to have/be ______ in public’ attitudes are, and how early they start.
http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=101972.0
And yet your continued carping about those words shows exactly why they need to be removed from public vocabulary. Being an old fart, I learned growing up there is a difference in the vocabulary one could express at home, and what one was expected to use in public. Here at Pharyngula, the words you mentioned shouldn’t be used. It is a public world-wide place. That you can’t see that, means you aren’t fully civilized and mature.
And frankly, until you show better maturity, I don’t care what your opinion is. It doesn’t match the worth of the regulars here, who are mature.
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.” (Desmond Tutu)
=====
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.” (Dame Rebecca West)
=====
I think the low point in this whole sorry saga was the thread on ERV’s blog, in which ERV appeared to be willing to tolerate a whole host of particularly nasty characters who were rhetorically indulging violent revenge-fantasies against Rebecca Watson. It’s disturbing how quickly the whole thing degenerated into a misogynistic and frightening personal hate campaign against RW; her description of the hate-mail she received reinforces this impression.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. In my experience, any discussion online about feminism and women’s issues tends to attract the nastiest sexist trolls, like flies to jam. But I’m still shocked at the months-long barrage of personal hate, threats and degrading insults Watson’s received, all over a couple of (perfectly mild and reasonable) sentences in a YouTube video. The internet can be a sick place.
No it would not be, because that use plays on the stereotype that women are the ones who complain all the time.
The only acceptable circumstance wherein the use of “bitch” might be appropriate involves dogs and pedigrees.
Caine:
As I should have done.
But my comment really stems from what he described as the atheist woman phenotype: “It does explain the usual phenotypes of many of the atheist women, strong and outspoken and notlikelytotakeshit.”
How do you describe the attributes of people in churches, male or female? It’s really whether or not they’ve been sucked in by this con-job that’s been perpertrated for a very long time to control society. I’ve not noted that atheist women are more or less outspoken than churchwomen (just look at Michelle Bachmann), at least from my Aussie vantage.
Walton:
I’m sorry to say it’s more than one thread, Walton, and it’s still ongoing.
As depressing as it is, the world is a sick place. While some people may be confining their views and actions to the ‘net, a whole lot of them don’t. The reason that you hear one story after another from women on these threads is because this sick shit takes place in every day life.
Caine, Fleur du Mal,
Sorry for late reply, just now finishing dinner.
Thank you! Nice to see you, too, and many other familiar ‘nyms and names, as well!
Dave R,
“Welcome to Deadwood! Can be combative!” -Al Swearengen, Deadwood, 2004-2006
When I first found Teh Intarwebs (not to say you’re new to Teh Intarwebs, but you may be new to Pharyngula), I, too, worried about tone. Some background on this: I was raised in a household climate of what I can best describe as “upper-class Victorian” social sensibility. To be “impolite” was a grave injury to my parents.
It took me a long time, including a long time lurking at Pharyngula, to realize that substantive commentary is worth more than murky and shifting notions of what constitutes politeness. The other potential problem with politeness is just as a number of other posters have noted: it can be used as a masquerade for insidious behavior.
I hope you will remain at Pharyngula, and I recommend spending time lurking, reading posts, reading comments, before getting around to posting yourself.
How you then choose to post is up to you.
Telling others how to post, however, is a quick route to ignominy at Pharyngula.
Welcome to Pharyngula. Can be combative.
Can also be hugely rewarding.
Still learning,
Robert
You have missed the point. Completely.
One man mentioned that it was his personal practice to cross the road when walking towards a woman ALONE LATE AT NIGHT (no other time or circumstance) so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. He did it voluntarily. Others opined that it was a very nice thing for him to do voluntarily.
NO ONE, EVER, EVEN MENTIONED THE REMOTEST HINT OF A POSSIBILITY THAT ALL MEN should be compelled to do this, or that woman had the “right” to tell men to do this.
It is this sort of deliberate take-it-out-of-context-and-exaggerate-it-until-it-is-completely-distorted-in-a-wholly-deceiful-manner that characterized virtually ALL the anti-Watson commentary. And which identified the odious MRAs from the sensible commenters.
OK!
So it seems like we’re allowed to REFER to swearing, such words like “mother-fucking nigger-faggot cum-bucket slut-machine cunt-whore rag-heads”… as long as we don’t aim these words AT someone.
It’s not the words them-SELVES that are offensive for people to see or have to read.. it’s all about the INTENT.
If we don’t use “cunt” to describe an actual PERSON the word is not offensive, and therefore we don’t need to use asterisks to mask it?
I’m starting to understand the culture here a little more. Thanks!
Allowed to? Of course you’re allowed to criticize feminists. Just be sure that your criticism is factual and supported by evidence. If it’s not then expect to be roundly ridiculed.
What do you have to criticize feminists about anyway? Insisting that men don’t actually have the right to ask women for sex in random places at random times, without facing negative social consequences? Asking you to change your behavior?
“I’m not racist, BUT [insert racist comment here].”
It was a suggestion. You have a problem with people making suggestions?
Fixed it to accurately reflect the power dynamics involved, and the relative risks of not being supported by cops, medical professionals, and the criminal justice system if an assault did occur. Again, as before, it’s a suggestion. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to force you to do this. If you think it’s unnecessary then don’t do it. It’s not an infringement on your rights, it’s a request to see the world through someone else’s eyes and to make an effort to make their life less stressful. Is that really beyond you? Fine then: you’re a jerkwad.
Obvious trolling is obvious.
We’re inundated with male perspectives. Let’s have something else for a while, eh?
It’s all part of the same struggle, idiot. The research on the subject (several links to the research can be found in this thread) shows that when it’s acceptable in a workplace to use gendered slurs against women or men, it makes it more difficult for women to get the recognition, raises, promotions, etc., that they deserve.
How convenient for you that you want feminists to focus on changing things that are beyond your personal control, and don’t require you to change anything about your personal behavior. Men are forever showing up in threads like these, asking, “But it’s not my fault! I can’t do anything, I’m not responsible!” Yes, it’s not your fault, but you can do something, and you are responsible. And if you shirk your responsibility then it becomes your fault. You can stop using gendered slurs. Stop laughing at rape jokes, or being silent. Speak up and say that you don’t find it funny. Don’t sit by silently when your friend insults another man by comparing him to a woman or a girl. If you do those things, then salary equality and workplace representation will become infinitely easier struggles for us.
You are a waste of time on this forum. But I still took the trouble to seriously respond to your post. Don’t say we never did anything useful for you.
Echidna:
This was a point many of us attempted to make to donkane, that for women entrenched in a religious, patriarchal system and life, church often offers them a position of authority, strength and power, the only possible way for them to have any authority or power. When the most of your life requires submission, a strong personality will take any opportunity for control.
As for Bachmann and those like her, it’s easier for her to be loud and outspoken, because a great many people agree with her views. Here in the U.S., atheists are still one of the most distrusted and despised groups. It can be frightening for atheists, especially female atheists to be as loud and outspoken. Threats of death and rape tend to be effective silencing tactics.
You’re actually allowed three.
That’s the informal three strikes rule.
Not everyone remembers to follow it all the time. (Not everyone agrees it should be followed).
But most of the time, unless the first post is particularly egregious, it will hold.
Since the conversation’s slowed down, and the trend is vocab…
In sexism threads, does “toxic” have any extra meaning beyond the dictionary? Or is the recurrence just a consequence of addressing similar content repeatedly? I’ve seen Caine use it primarily.
Well, I abandoned ERV’s blog completely after it became clear that she wasn’t interested in stopping her blog commenters posting sexist diatribes, degrading insults and creepy revenge-fantasies directed at Watson personally. (And even joined in with the abuse herself: cf “Twatson”.) After that, I had no desire to go back there; not having read her blog for a month or more, I didn’t know she’d continued to harp on the subject, though I’m not surprised. It has ensured that I can’t take her views seriously any more.
You’re allowed to do whatever you want, aside from godbotting, sockpuppeting, and a few other grievous offenses listed in the Dungeon rolls. You just might experience severe social opprobrium if you decide to make vast swaths of humanity into collateral damage in your quest to insult a single person.
Well, sort of but not quite. Intent isn’t really the crux of the matter, usage is. Intent is not magic. It is the history and the meaning of the words that makes them offensive. Yes, if you’re not actually using “bitch” as an insult but rather referring to “Bitch Magazine,” the journal of feminism and pop culture, that’s not offensive. But you will frequently find people claiming that because they did not INTEND to imply that being compared to a woman is a terrible insult, therefore the meaning isn’t there and people shouldn’t get offended. So intent isn’t really the word you’re looking for here.
Asterisks… what? You lost me. I know some women who use the word cunt to mean what it means, female genitalia. Not in polite company, of course. If you’re using it that way, it’s fine, but when would that ever be the case?
Anyway.
Glenn Davey:
You’re almost there, Glenn. First of all, there’s zero point to asterisking naughty words, regardless of context. People still know what they are, okay?
If I happen to be among friends and say something like “I love my cunt, it’s very pretty!”, it’s obvious I’m referring to my own body part. Personally, I wouldn’t consider that offensive, if I said it or someone else said it. However, cunt is not often used in such a manner, as a synonym for vulva or vagina.
Here at Pharyngula, gender-based insults are frowned upon. If someone uses one, say something like “you stupid prick”, we’ll tell the person using prick that we don’t care for that sort of thing and why. The word prick will be quoted and used while the explanations are taking place. No, it won’t be asterisked during the quoting, explanations and examples. That’s pointless. What a reader needs to pay attention to is the substance and context of what someone is saying, not whether the offending word is asterisked. Okay?
SallyStrange covered the whole intent and history part, so I won’t get into that.
Compulsory Account, give these a read:
Toxic Masculinity (Part One)
Toxic Masculinity (Part Two)
Glenn Davey @367, you’ve vastly misunderstood the culture if you think anyone here gives two shits whether something has been masked with asterisks or not. We’re not dumb, we know what “m*****f*****” means. What people tend to hate is insults whose offensive punch comes from assigning or likening the recipient to a class of people who have been culturally coded as lesser, dirty, inferior, etc.
To put it another way: if everyone agrees that X is not a great thing to be, then calling someone X as an insult is probably cool. But if you’re calling someone, essentially, an insufficiently-male person, or a member of an ethnicity not yours, or someone who likes a kind of sex you don’t like, then you’re probably fuckin’ up, mate.
#367 Glenn Davey:
Pretty much it’s true that mentioning words is okay, but it should be added that there’s really no reason ever to use asterisks (and that doesn’t just mean on this forum). Why would I ever call you a “f****t”, for example? If I think my usage of the word in this situation is appropriate, I might as well use the actual word “faggot.” If I think the usage is inappropriate, then I should just not fucking use it rather than engage in such an extraordinary ritual of double-think.
There’s no one-stop test for when it’s appropriate to use the word “cunt,” or any other word for that matter. The standard is: Does employing this word contribute to making this post say something intelligent? If so, then go ahead and use it, even if it’s “rude.” If not, then you can choose to use it anyway, in which case you are probably saying something stupid (not generally a good idea), or you can choose to say something intelligent instead. The standard is pretty much the same whether the word is “cunt” or “phenotype”.
Cameron:
Gendered insults are not created equally.
I will point you to a comment on reddit which I think sums this up quite well. I’ve used tinyurl because the link doesn’t seem to wrap properly in preview.
http://tinyurl.com/68c9e9d
nigel 347: *applause*
Jesus Christ on a cracker, this is still controversial? Do you all have nonfunctioning legs or something?
I should clarify that if you’re using an insult that depends for its force on an implication that some particular social group is despicable, then your post will be read as though it has the text “Oh, by the way, I think is despicable” appended to it for the purposes of judging how intelligent your comments were.
This is generally not going to modify that judgment in a favorable direction for you.
Let’s try that again:
I should clarify that if you’re using an insult that depends for its force on an implication that some particular social group is despicable, then your post will be read as though it has the text “Oh, by the way, I think [social group] is despicable” appended to it for the purposes of judging how intelligent your comments were.
Rey:
Their legs are fine. It’s the women, Rey. You know, we’re all hysterically demanding that men go out of their way and…think. We’re absolutely horrible, oppressing the poor darlings.
This is really disturbing. But I’m glad it’s being talked about. Let’s not stop challenging stupidity.
Those women haters are just a bunch of insecure, little boys who can’t take getting their fragile egos bruised. Boo-hoo!
Rebecca, REAL men are on your side and support you. Keep holding a mirror up so they can see their absurd behaviour.
This is serious…just yesterday, a beautiful young woman was gunned down in Vancouver…and things seem to be pointing at a former boyfriend. Very sad. Very tragic. It has to change.
Rebecca Watson didn’t even ask for the MRAs to be made to show just a sliver of polite decency. She only asked for them to think about the possibility of choosing to behave with a sliver of polite decency.
But even this was too much for them. Gynofascist indeed!
I will read through the comments in this thread later, and when I’m drunk enough to cope. But I will say this, I don’t like hearing that Rebecca is preferring to stay at home playing video games these days, because some sick fuck internet losers are still obsessing about her (not elevatorgate, mind you, they have graduated from that a long time ago). That to me sounds like depression rather than the result of silencing, and I don’t like it one bit.
@Cameron 111
Uhm, what?! That word has not lost its derogatory meaning, and yes it is still offensive, not that you give a fuck about actual gay and bisexual men’s feelings, obviously.
PZ @11
Oh my FSM, that guy sounds like a reincarnation of Earl Curley! Boy, that vile crap sure brought back the old days.
@Caine#375:
Ah, machismo poisoning. I hadn’t previously considered that as an influence in unhinging fanatical MRAs, like the ones mentioned at the top.
Reminiscent of what Greta Christina did a while back…
Article – Stupid, Unfair, and Sexist Things Expected of Men
I probably caught that link from one of your posts too.
Rorschach:
I don’t like it either way. Given the amount of non-stop abuse she’s been subjected to for months on end, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s depressed.
Aratina Cage:
No, it hasn’t. It’s not just used against men, either. I heard a man tell a woman she needs to be buggered.
Oh dear, PZ, why? You know there are a bunch of dumb fucks here, who at the mere mention of sexism of any kind, decide to argue with shitheads incessantly over 1000s of posts. Which fine, it is the internet and all, so who cares. But you know what, I care. How many god damned threads of fucktards bitching and moaning at each other over this does your site need? It is not like anything productive comes out of these stupid fucking threads. The people who should be engaging in consciousness raising are just throwing shit like monkeys, just like the the fucktards on the other side are. It is pathetic and pointless.
So shame on you PZ. You post YET ANOTHER time about this? Again and again you tell people to let it go, which is cute, since what you are really doing is stirring the pot over and over. How about you don’t mention it so often dumbass? Jesus Fucking Christ.
A word on politeness, more an echo:
The conditioning to be polite is one which is used to shame people who don’t belong to a certain type, and to keep people within a pre-existing set of rules which selectively allow some to speak more than others and allow some to use speech to manipulate others. Gender is the easiest place to see it. Women are supposed to be passive objects in that system of politeness.
The interesting thing for me about this place is that it reminds me how much of my politeness is docility to power. It also reminds me how much of the desire to chide people is really acting out social means of enforcement.
Cursing is deviant. Sometimes it’s also the only tool for the job, because being polite reinforces that same bullshit social hierarchy.
@Dumbass
As long as there are fucks like you that complain to him instead of bettering yourself, PZ will need to keep writing them.
But despite what you’re blather, we do know that it works. There are several people in this thread alone who have testified that they’ve changed their minds and had their consciousness raised. And for every one of them, there are probably a dozen more who just haven’t reported in.
As many as PZ decides it needs. It’s his blog, not yours.
Speak for yourself. I’ve learned a huge amount about a subject that I previously was familiar with only on a superficial basis by participating in these threads.
And yet here you are, commenting after reading 391 posts. Who’s the meany holding the gun to your head, forcing you to stay on this site?
What they are doing, is engaging in consciousness raising. And PZ is giving them the opportunity to do so.
And I am one those who had his consciousness raised, precisely because of these threads.
How about you don’t read or post about it, if you find it so tedious, dear sir?
You Are All Dumbasses (har! you’re a clever one!) @#391:
I don’t claim to speak for PZ (or anyone else but myself), but here’s why:
Because it’s still an issue. You come here and whine about PZ pointing out a real issue within the atheist movement, and society in general. An issue that is not going to go away simply because little self-centered, privilege-soaked twits like you wish it would go away. What’s next? Should we all just shut up about racism too? I mean, slavery ended like…. 300 years ago! Ohmigosh black people, get ovar it!
So. This issue will be discussed until deeply-entrenched, soul-crushing, equality-obliterating structural constructs such as sexism and racism are gone. And it’s not gonna happen if people just stop talking about it because twits (like you) are oh-so-upset about having to read about it. Don’t like it? Nobody is forcing you to read Pharyngula.
TL;DR version: We talk about it because it’s not over. This ain’t over ’til it’s over. /rockyimpersonation.
YAAD:
For someone who doesn’t care, you certainly talk a lot.
You are so wrong. Not exactly a surprise. For every thread on feminism and sexism, (most of which took place long before Egate), we have had people tell us that they have learned, that they have changed their minds, that they are now engaged in helping to make a difference. That is consciousness raising.
It would seem that you’re the dumbass here.
PZ isn’t stirring the pot. The pot hasn’t stopped roiling. Did you even bother to read Rebecca Watson’s post, which PZ linked? Have you seen the unceasing abuse she has been subjected to for months? Whether you like it or not, this is an important happening to discuss. It should not be swept under the metaphorical rug. As for the suggestion to let it go, that would be to all those who are obsessing over Ms. Watson and invading every aspect of her life.
Again, looks like you’re the dumbass.
I actually have a question with respect to gendered insults. I’ve been making an effort to avoid using them, and I’m curious as to whether the ones involving “douche” count.
Ze Madmax sez:
“An issue that is not going to go away simply because little self-centered, privilege-soaked twits like you wish it would go away.”
Now you proved my point you dumb fucktard. I said, crudely, but the point was there, that these things turn into turd throwing fests, how the signal to noise ratio is abysmal. And what do you do, you ignore my point and insult me personally. FUCK YOU. And thank you, because you prove my point. Do I want actual and reasonable posts about sexism to go away? Hells no. Why would you assume that you dumb fuck? By skimming these threads (BTW I didn’t read all 390 posts amphiox you assuming dunce) I am continually pissed off at just how much of a pile of shit these conservations are. If you could even call them conversations, as almost all of the time it appears to be tangents and insult comedy. It is like most people here don’t even want to actually discuss the issues… or they are so retarded that they cannot focus on the issues. Either way, I am sick of wading through bullshit for the occasional post in here worth reading. But hey, go on pretending most of what occurs in these threads isn’t shit.
Sakurazaki Setsuna, douche and variants on it, such as douchecake, are fine. They’re often used here. Why?
Douching was a terribly anti-woman practice designed to make women feel ashamed about their natural body odor. Repeated douching can wash away the lining of the uterus, making it not just pointless but dangerous. Douching can lead to infections and increases the risk of ectopic pregnancies and pelvic inflammatory disease.
Douche and douchebag make very fitting insults in certain situations.
And there are a lot of fun ways to combine douche:
douchecake
douchecanoe
fountain of douche
douche bucket
douchetart
douche balloon
Fun to say, fun to use!
/word nerd
mouthyb, there’s also Indy M’s doucheburger, which made its happy debut in this thread.
Caine, Fleur du Mal sez:
“YAAD: For someone who doesn’t care, you certainly talk a lot. ”
You demonstrate another problem. People who don’t take the time to fucking read a person’s comment before responding to them. I specifically said I do care you fucking moron. But in your haste to win in this diss-fest you didn’t even bother to comprehend what I explicitly and clearly said. Good work.
Anyway, it is great that people are learning some things from these threads, but I am amazed how that is possible, again considering the amount of shit being flung by both sides that people have to sift through. Maybe unemployed people with lots of time on their hands are the only ones learning, I don’t know.
You need to ask yourself, is this about your own ego and own ability to put other’s in their place, or can you rise above the bullshit instead of constantly contributing to it? The latter never seems to happen in these threads to a significant number of people.
YAAD: It’s not so much that they turn into insult-fests because there’s something wrong with the local fauna, it’s that people show up, throw poop, and are SO SURPRISED that the local fauna doesn’t just sit there and go “My, we’ve had poop flung at us! We must be terrible people.”
They are gloriously, riotously not going to take it.
Fixing the blockquote error:
Because you just ranted for several paragraphs about how this perfectly reasonable post was a stupid waste of time.
Duh?
And an addendum: your reasons for thinking this post is unreasonable are unconvincing so far.
You Are All Dumbasses does have a point that these threads aren’t terribly productive. That doesn’t mean they should stop, but if PZ really does care about these issues, as I’m sure he does, he should take another step and write an op-ed in his local paper. (Hopefully a professor could convince a newspaper to publish something like that.) I’m sure there are other steps he could take as well, such as encouraging users to write their own opinion pieces (and, if they can swing it, featured op-eds). That would actually serve to raise awareness beyond the people who happen to read this site.
Caine: How could I forget!
Doucheburger. Hell, douche + odd pairing noun is awesome.
mouthyb:
Yes it is and I feel awful for leaving out Jadehawk’s classic douchebiscuit.
Sakurazaki Setsuna, douche and variants on it, such as douchecake, are fine. They’re often used here. Why?
Mostly just out of curiosity, and because its one of my favorite insults due to how wonderfully easily it can be combined with other words (a personal favorite of mine is “douchenozzle”
Anyway, thank you for the brief history of the douche, it was quite informative.
Michael Hawkins: He’s probably kind of busy, what with being a prof and all. Trust me, that’s a full time x 2 job (I teach college, and I’m not a tenure track researcher on top of it; I easily work 9 hours a day, 6-7 days a week between teaching, research for my own classes and homework.)
The presence of an insult does not preclude content, and what I’m seeing is people come in swinging, refuse to take a hint, and then claim they were just preemptively insulted, like YAAD.
Sakurazaki Setsuna:
You’re welcome, and thanks. I’m glad you asked, because we’ve had people here before who yell at us for frowning on gender-based insults and using douche. It’s always good to be able to back yourself up. :)
mouthyb, Michael Hawkins is, among other things, a persistent Tone Troll™, blogwhore and one who has an odd grudge against PZ. Apparently, he wasn’t getting enough attention in the Atheism has a sexism problem thread.
Besides, I doubt an Op-ed in a local paper would be all that, given that Pharyngula has millions of views per day.
Caine, Fleur du Mal sez:
“Have you seen the unceasing abuse she has been subjected to for months? Whether you like it or not, this is an important happening to discuss.”
Wait. You really believe that is what is happening here? That this thread is about the nutters going after Watson? Get real. Cut the shit. That’s not what is being discussed and you know it. That’s what PZ made a blog post about, but as you well know, these things go off where they always do, into the land of shit – insults and tangents. Yeah let’s talk about tone for ever and ever, instead of ignoring the fuckwits whining about it. Let’s habe some oh-so-important no holds barred insult fests (with a few mentions of the topic thrown in here and there for appearances sake). Because that *really* accomplishes a lot! Yeah! Fuck you! Oh no you didn’t! Fuck you! No, fuck YOU! I win! And so on. If the Watson thing is an important happening to discuss then discuss it. Don’t trot it out as a defense after 100s of comments of almost all garbage, after dozens of threads each filled with 1000s of posts of garbage. Ok, fucktard? (You aren’t going to fall for that fucktard thing are you, surely by now you get the point?)
@410 mouthyb,
You’re right that PZ must be a busy guy, but he surely can find half an hour to craft a few hundred words for a cause like this. At the very least, I would like to see him encourage people to write into their own newspapers, perhaps utilizing something topical.
And of course insults don’t preclude content. I see plenty of content all over the place here. But content and productivity don’t always go hand-in-hand.
Wait. You really believe that is what is happening here?
Do you have an actual point, or are you just going to blather on about how threads drift, and thats such a goddamn crime?
Caine: Ah! Thank you for the warning. And the reminder of douchebiscuit.
Oh yes, agreed. This site with all PZ fans and haters, trackbacks and quotes is far more effective than any local or state newspaper. And that’s assuming he could get in the paper about this topic.
That’s another recurrent “critique” is that we should do more. How do you know we are helping elsewhere? Why do you assume this isn’t helping in its own way?
I think this “Stop talking about it and go do something” should be added to another bingo card.
mouthyb, who should have been twins says:
“YAAD: It’s not so much that they turn into insult-fests because there’s something wrong with the local fauna, it’s that people show up, throw poop, and are SO SURPRISED that the local fauna doesn’t just sit there and go “My, we’ve had poop flung at us! We must be terrible people.”
They are gloriously, riotously not going to take it.”
Weak. Incredibly weak sauce. So they are riotously not going to take it. So you… spend inordinate amounts of time flinging shit back at them? Actual verbal shit? Nah man, that’s not the way to be. People get too emotional about this. Scratch that, they get too emotional in the wrong kind of way and lose focus. Between that and ridiculous tangents we’re left with not much else. So I get fed up with these fucking threads.
People here have gotten past their own egos. Multiple times because, believe it or not, growing as a person and realizing what prejudices you have is always a work in progress.
Guess who isn’t getting past their own egos. People like you who pop in and accuse the commentariat (who’ve been expressing outrage at a campaign meant to humiliate, silence and demean a woman through overt sexism and harassment) of being the real problem. That they’re the ones who’re keeping this issue alive. That they’re the ones who’re truly at fault.
You’re the one who needs the good long look in the mirror. What exactly is your problem, You’re all Dumbasses?
Michael Hawkins and YAAD appear to be deeply concerned about feminism and its future. So concerned that they’ve taken time out of their busy days to tell us to STFU already about all that goddam feminism bullshit.
Thanks guys. With allies like you, who needs enemies?
I’m not sure you have any room to get snotty about intelligence here, because you’ve failed to notice that in fact what PZ has been doing is the exact OPPOSITE of telling anyone to “let it go”.
Obviously this concept is beyond your tiny intellect, but try to stretch your abilities and grasp it: when a person is being unjustly attacked and harassed, a good ally and decent human being will call attention to that fact. People who aren’t shitstains like you generally step UP when injustice occurs rather than hiding their heads in their rectal cavities and thinking longingly of how quiet it would be if the oppressed would just hush about it for a while.
All those insults and tangents are addressing real comments to try and educate them, or at least those reading. It usually helps the onlookers most. It has helped people understand and learn. Every thread here has tangents and insults since its not a strict conversation between certain people. This is a very publicized blog, its like we’re on stage and doing a performance piece on how worthless tone trolls like you and bigoted people are so fucking wrong with extra bile to keep everyone’s attention.
mouthyb:
No problem. If you have time, the exchanges between Hawkins and the Horde on that other thread are priceless. Someone did go over to Hawkins’ blog and found a post about screwing over the people who own a golf range, who are struggling to keep the business alive. He found all manner of reasons to use their services and walk off without paying. He didn’t care for their tone, it seems. He’s quite the douchebiscuit.
Just_A_Lurker:
That’s always so precious, when all they can manage is to whine.
If it isn’t already on one of the cards, it should be.
And why should being emotional about a subject be a bad thing? Are you upset? Is it a bad thing?
It is being discussed (well it was being discussed) and guess who keeps constantly interrupting the discussion?
Sakurazaki Setsuna says:
“Do you have an actual point, or are you just going to blather on about how threads drift, and thats such a goddamn crime?”
Is my point really so hard to comprehend? And why do you appear to be so defensive? Don’t contribute to the thread “drifting” which is a charitable way of saying it quickly gets Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition (like all these threads do). Stop pretending that you haven’t contributed to the piss poor signal to noise ratio around here. I mean, your last post didn’t help anyone, did it? Unless by some miracle, my post, as a direct response to yours, finally made you realize you have a reading disability? Eh?
Now I am going to stop commenting for a good 12 hours, because I have made myself quite clear. No sense repeating myself over and over just because a few folks appear to not know how to read.
Because it makes you hysterical or some bullshit.
Passion isn’t a vice. This last few months have shown me ‘calm and collected’ doesn’t preclude you from being entirely thick headed about an issue. Hell it fills you with the conceit you’re the rational one because you’re calm.
Seriously? How are you not pissed about how fucked up MRAs an PUAs are and how misogynist are treating women? There’s nothing wrong with being passionate and not taking bullshit, especially on a topic like this. In fact, if you aren’t sufficiently upset, disturbed, pissed, or whatever, I’d say theres something wrong with you.
I understand we are all human and sometimes really just can’t deal with threads like this (boy that happens often for me, brings up bad memories) but you clearly care and are focusing on the wrong part. YOU are clearly getting too emotional over the WRONG part.
Why don’t you actually discuss what’s on topic instead of this bullshit? Seriously, hypocritical much? WTF? You are distracting us you worthless, clueless fucking idiot.
You know, there’s something you can do about that.
I suppose your schedule is too full with telling people what to do and how to communicate. And gatecrashing driving ranges.
YAAD here sure is concerned about the thread drift, even though I’d guess by his moniker he doesn’t actually post here regularly.
Now, he’s certainly more aggressive than your average concerned poster, but goddammit, he’s going to stop this drift if he has to insult everyone in the process!
Well, that’s good. You need to take breaks from things that make you SO ANGRY GRRRRRR.
This one’s cute, what do you think we should call it?
YAAD, since you seem desperately in need of a clue-by-four:
The intended audience for PZ’s admonishment to “get over it” is not the commentariat here, or feminists in general. It’s the obsessive, creepy misogynists who have been deluging Rebecca Watson with abusive, stalker-ish communications for months now, and trying to get her fired from speaking gigs and whatnot.
They won’t, though. Why? Sexism.
Your point is indeed very hard to understand, because it doesn’t make any fucking sense.
You Are All Dumbasses:
Your very name, the very first thing we see, is an insult to all of us — and you are offended that we’re pre-emptively peeved at you? How unselfaware PLUS hypocritical, can you be?
But, to the point:
Umm, as has been pointed out dozens of times in this thread alone you’re criticizing the tone, instead of the content. And telling us, too, that we are WRONG for that. That’s two, no three insults right off the top. And you wonder why we don’t like you?
And next:
Okay. Noted. Now (I apologize beforehand for shouting, but–) IF YOU DON’T WANT US TO GO OFF ON TANGENTS DON’T OFF ON ONE YOURSELF!! IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT RW — THEN TALK ABOUT RW! INSTEAD OF OUR ****FUCKING TONE*****!!!
Once again with the insults, hypocrisy, and complete lack of self-awareness.
Look, I won’t all-caps you and characterize your behaviour in insulting words if you’ll just (ahem) put this thread back on track and talk about RW. We’ll be glad to.
Come on.
The ball’s in your court.
Sakurazaki Setsuna:
Yes, xe’s going to stop it by trolling and continuing to derail the discussion, rather than simply posting about the actual topic.
Is this the first ever instance of Meta-Tone Tolling?
;)
Rey:
Wee Hulk?
Interactions of these sorts never fail to remind me of this scene in The Big Lebowski.
Calmer than you are.
Awww, YAAD, has left.
And you re-compound (or cube) his hypocrisy, he still hasn’t posted anything about RW. C’mon YAAD! Insult us, tone-troll, and talk about RW. I promise you, if you actually talk about RW, it will be responded to!
Pretty please?
Man, I didn’t know shit was fissionable, but it certainly looked like a runaway chain reaction here.
I guess I’m just adding to the pile of WTFs that have been expressed regarding the MRA reaction to ElevatorGate. It doesn’t make sense to me, but then I’ve had lots of experience with capable, intelligent women due to long exposure to my amazing wife and daughters. I could see them making the same kind of FYI, don’t do this comment when exposed to stupidity, and would hate to see them treated this way.
RW didn’t ask for this, and she certainly doesn’t deserve the abuse. For those who disagree with her approach, say so and move on. Obsessing over it says more about you than it does about her.
cybercmdr:
So many of us tried and tried and tried to make this very simple point from the very start. It was a helpful clue: guys, don’t do that. The amount of people who managed to translate that as “a poor guy who tried to ask that bitch out was accused of rape!” was shocking.
Just_A_Lurker says:
“…its like we’re on stage and doing a performance piece on how worthless tone trolls like you and bigoted people are so fucking wrong with extra bile to keep everyone’s attention.”
Holee Shiiiit. You dragged me back in with your dumb fuckery. Tone Troll? TONE TROLL? Are you fucking high you shithead? How the fuck am I a tone troll when I am excessively swearing at people on purpose, you fucking moron? Do you even think before you type? Jesus Fucking Christ you are an imbecile. Or on mind altering substances.
Let me break it down for you:
1) These threads are mostly full of shit. This is not in dispute. That’s not everyone else’s fault but yours, even if you disagree pretend you are to blame, so do try to not contribute to the shit. The shit is what makes me want to gouge out my eyes pretty much everytime a serious issue is discussed here, but especially when it is sexism, as the quality of the discussion is so fucking horrible that it upsets and infuriates me that so many supposedly intelligent people can be so very very petty and dumb at the same time.
2) Learn how to read, or devote enough time so that you can read correctly. I mean really, tone troll? You stupid motherfucker. But it is not just you, I was told I didn’t care when I just said in the post before I did care. When people miss blindingly obvious things like that, guess what, yeah, that contributes to poor conversation and misunderstanding. Also,
3) Don’t jump to conclusions. Not everyone who says the slightest thing in opposition to your point is the “enemy”. Don’t treat them that way at the drop of a hat. Which leads to
4) Hey fuckface, why not rise above the insults and you know, actually attempt to stick to the issues? Can you at least try to do that, dick? Most people here spend more time on insults and pointless tangents than the actually point of the thread.
There you go, four easy points, that shouldn’t be controversial, that shouldn’t be met with shit, right? Will anyone take them to heart? Maybe, but most of the new posts between now and Saturday are going to be useless shit. I guess we’ll see.
I lol’d but it makes me think of The Wee Free Men and I like those guys. This one? Not so much.
YAAD, AAOYAD, WYCtbaD, just an FYI for you – morphing is a bannable offense here. Pick a nym and stick with it. The idiocy in your posts is more than enough.
Tone trolling isn’t just those against swearing idiot. And your cussing is juvenile at best. I’m still learning myself from our esteemed regulars who really have a knack for it, but at least I’m not proud of rudimentary cussing skill.
Take your own advice first. Lead by example. I don’t follow “Do as I say not as I do.”
Just_A_Lurker:
Ah shucks. I like them too.
Oh and you clearly missed every discussion here about not using gendered insults. You really want us to talk about you, don’t you? Obvious attention troll. Get over yourself.
Lose the gender-based insults, Cupcake. They aren’t approved of here. You’d know that if you had bothered to read the thread. Your intellectual poverty is just shining through!
Actually, it is in dispute. Its actually in dispute on this and the Atheism has a sexism problem thread as well. Your opinion is not the end all fuck all.
I doubt someone showed up at your door, put a gun to your head and forced you to get back on the ‘net and read this thread.
It’s easy, Cupcake. Close the Pharyngula tab or window and go do something else.
Um, considering what it is that your whining about, you certainly give the impression that you couldn’t really give a fuck less about the topic at hand. And if you knew anything about reading comprehension then you would know that more than just the words themselves goes into the imagine you’re projecting with your comment.
Lack of self awareness this epic really belongs in a textbook.
Care to address the topic of the thread, Dumbass? Nope? Okey-dokey, then. Thanks for stopping by and throwing shit in order to let everyone know how much you disapprove of shit throwing.
Do please stick the flounce this time.
Here’s a potato peeler for you.
Totally OT but its Pharyngula I have to thank for finding those books. I’m on the hunt for more of his too. I literally laughed out loud so many times, my bf thought I was going crazy, especially since I couldn’t explain it right to him. XD
Cameron, what on earth makes you think that the language issue (ie cunt and bitch) is separate from the “larger” issue of general equality?
They’re not at all separate.
They are part of the same problem – the problem that men (and yes, some women) do not see women as equals. That is expressed in a myriad of ways – language, restricted opportunities, and all the other things you think we SHOULD be fighting for.
Feminism has had some successes, but we’re still far from equality. For every gain made in the corporate world, there’s some guy out there complaining that his male privilege is now worth less. That guy may not even realize what he’s doing until someone calls him on his privilege or his language or his attitudes…
Delivery for Rey Fox! Sign here for your sniny new internet.
This is disgusting. Even if Rebecca Watson had been completely wrong to express her unease about a guy propositioning her in an elevator at 4 a.m., this level of vitriol is completely uncalled for. It makes me wonder how much hate mail these people send out to others that they disagree with. Is Chris Mooney dealing with constant harassment from “New Atheists”? What about Ken Ham? Somehow, I suspect that they’re getting off more easily (I think that if they were being constantly harassed, they would have been sure to mention it).
I’d watch the nym-changing, sweetie. Our tentacled overlord frowns on it.
And if you don’t like these threads why the fuck are you reading them? Talk about ridiculous.
If you enjoy working yourself into a frenzy, that’s fine, but I always told my kids that some things should only be done in private. It’s kind of inconsiderate to do it in front of several thousand people.
Or is that what gets you off? Oh, well, that’s what killfiles are for.
@YAAD
Don’t you think we’d all rather be talking about ways we can improve the sexist culture or ways to help with Rebecca’s situation in particular? Or even doing those things?
The problem is, we can’t even get to step 0.5 of getting a consensus that there is a problem. Every post on sexism attracts a new bevy of interlopers saying that “both sides are overreacting” or “insulting people doesn’t solve anything” or “why are we still talking about this” or “I don’t get what all the fuss was about. EG just extended her an invitation, and she had to make it into an international incident” or “why shouldn’t I call people I detest ‘cunts’ ‘twats’ ‘cows’ ‘sluts’ or ‘whores’–that’s not sexist at all, bitches” or “I agreed with the bitch until she told everyone that she wouldn’t buy any more books written by Dawkins/used something another woman had written about her as an example in a talk she was giving”.
I guess your answer is just to leave all this crap unchallenged, ignore it, and move on to step 1. Unfortunately, I don’t think it can work that way. But you’re welcome to try that strategy. Instead of whining at PZ or complaining that the regulars aren’t doing it right (itself a derail of the highest order), why not bring the topic back to the front of the agenda every time you see one of the douchehats or tone trolls come by?
Rey Fox, one Internet just isn’t enough. Here’s a tasteful bouquet of internets for you.
Oh, shut the hell up, YAAD. You’re bloating the thread for no reason and your posts are inane. Yeah – I’m emotional as fuck about sexism. I’m afraid because misogynists exist, I’m pissed off that oblivious whining idiots like you are giving them cover, and I’m fucking furious that you feel you have the right to come in here and tell us not to get so emotional about, you know, things that can literally destroy our lives. And I’m with Caine – pick a fucking nym and stick with it so you stop slipping my fucking killfile, you tedious lackwit.
—
On the topic of the original post: my heart is breaking for Rebecca Watson at this point. There aren’t words that would be sufficient. I’ll try:
—
We stand behind you. We support you. We abhor what’s being done to you. We don’t want to lose your voice, and it’s valuable to us. You weren’t on my radar before this incident – I spend my time here – but I have so much respect and sympathy for you now.
But to some extent, you already knew all this. You already had people who cared about you and supported you and respected you. What we’ve all learned now is that there are festering piles of toxic shit in this community, and they’re not as small as we thought they were, and they can’t be cleaned up easily. And in the end, all the allies in the world can’t really stop them. I rage at what they’re doing to you, but all I can do about it is try to convince them to stop, either by rational discussion and education – ha! let others beat their heads against those brick walls, if they so choose – or by shunning and shaming them. That’s the horrible thing, and it’s the thing that makes me truly afraid, both for you and for all women in what passes for the atheist community. PZ can’t stop them. The Horde can’t stop them. But for what it’s worth, we’ll stand behind you.
I know you didn’t intend for any of this to happen, and I know you’d probably prefer not to be the focus of all this hate, but thank you so much for bringing this issue to the front of the discussion, however inadvertently. It’s probably small consolation to you, but this pseudonymous stranger somewhere off on the internet has been not only educated – and occasionally crushed – but, in the end, kindled and enraged by this incident. I am a better feminist and a stronger person because of you. And I have hopes that a better community will come out of this, one way or another. On Pharyngula, because of you, I personally have met several people I consider new friends and allies, and have gained even more respect for existing ones. I have you to thank for that. If there’s anything we can do for you, to make this easier, never hesitate to ask.
Unfortunately, there are a disturbingly large number of people who happen to read this site who need their awareness raised. Are you seriously suggesting that PZ could change more minds by writing a Letter to the Editor of his local dead tree, which probably has a circulation of twelve households and falling, than he can by posting at his own world-famous website?!
Six just in the first paragraph.
*loud, sustained laughter*
That is pure comedy gold, right there.
Jesus Fucking Christ guys, a couple of you got it, eventually, but quite a few seem to be completely immune to my points. I say stick to the issues (which you already know you should be doing), over and over again, because you don’t, thus getting further away from the issues, and most of you keep talking about me instead of the issues? (Or somehow think I am speaking of tone?) Really? I mean… really!? This is how easy it is to get you further off the rails? Just tell you to try to stay on them? What the fuck guys?
I say don’t spend most of the time insulting, while insulting you, and several posts are made *just to insult me*, how I have anger issues, am a wee man and so on? And my personal favorite, don’t use a gender based insult but then call a man Cupcake as if that is ok? You’re using that one because it probably infuriates all the male sexist nutters in this thread (more than dick ever would). Which I say good on you (so long as you don’t make dissing the point of your posts at the expense of actual content)… but hey don’t be a giant hypocrite about it. But yeah, really, someone saying don’t spend too much time insulting, while insulting you, is enough to short circuit your brain and lead you astray? Really? Really!? I am just flabbergasted at the lack of awareness on display here.
You’re emotional? Good. Angry? You should be. Completely lacking focus? Sadly often, so do try to stick to what is important. And pay attention. Now I really am going now (quoting this part with some snide remark isn’t going to help your goals here btw), and, as a long time lurker, really will come back in 12-18 hours, likely to become depressed/infuriated again at the proportion of useful posts to shit ones between then and now. Goodnight.
My sides. They hurt. Also my brain.
Why can’t you build a ghetto on a river?
Stick the fucking flounce this time and lurk more. That way maybe you’ll learn. I get frustrated with these threads too because of idiots like you complaining about stupid shit and those damn MRA’s. Your comments are just ridiculous and as the sexist comments are just wearing but at least they serve a purpose. Your serve nothing but your ego trip.
Also, you clearly aren’t a long term lurker if you don’t know what “Cupcake” means and why its not sexist.
Anyway
Does anyone want to talk about the rights of a public figure vs the rights of a community to criticize them? There’s a line that you do not cross (both legally and ethically) and it might be worthwhile to point it again to the overly obtuse.
Dumbass, what do you not get? These threads are not made for your own personal edification and enjoyment. The rest of us? We like them the way they are. Well, to be fair, I personally would prefer one slightly less filled with oblivious fuckwits trying to tell everyone what’s acceptable to talk about, but chewtoys have their uses too, even paltry, pathetic specimens like you. By the way, a word of advice: don’t come in here pretending you pay attention and then kvetch about “cupcake.” Flame-broiled Christ on a stick, you’re stupid.
@Dumbass (I’ll go back to that since it’s at least consistent)
You’re being called a tone troll because you’re telling other people how to respond, rather than *focusing on the issues* yourself. Got it now?
“Cupcake” is an equal opportunity term of endearment/sarcastic insult. There’s no gender involved there.
Goddamnitfuckigphoneihatethisshitfuckingupmycommentslikeimamoron..grumble..I meant to include this in my last comment…
My goals? My goals? My current goal is smacking fucking douched-out trolls upside their mouth-breathing faces with porcupines. I may not have great form yet but practice makes perfect…
Dear Whatever Dumbass
The fact that you see “cupcake” as a gendered insult actually says an awful lot about you and why you’re frothing at the mouth about this whole issue.
Here, have a cupcake. No, on second thought, I don’t think you deserve a delicious tiny morsel of cake.
No reason, it just takes more effort to build a ghetto out of boats than out of corrugated tin and cardboard boxes. I know that the movies would have us believe there are “neighborhoods” of interconnected junks attached to the riversides and seasides of various Chinese cities, but I don’t know how much of that (if any) has a basis in reality.
Why is Julian the only one that wants to talk about something substantive? Why are you talking to me after I said I was leaving? You *do* actually want to stick to the issues, don’t you? Don’t you? Piss poor guys, piss poor. Also Tone is not Content. Content is not Tone. It is sad enough there was an ongoing discussion about Tone prior to my entry, now somehow saying “hey stick to the topic rather than go off it” is tone based? Please. Oh shit, I am not on topic, someone is going to respond to this rather then get on topic. I accidentally outsmarted you again…
PS – I see Cupcake as a non-gendered insult that will insult most guys more than the word “dick” will. Or at least all of the meatheads I know in real life who value macho-ness, as I imagine the sexist nutters all do.
If Rebecca Watson is finding it hard to get speaking engagements due to the work of these few tossers, I would be more than happy to help organise appearances in Australia. Maybe the organisers of next year’s GAC should consider getting her here as a speaker as well, it would send a strong signal that we’re not putting up with the hateful, obsessive misogyny of a few deluded internet creeps, and that we are prepared to tackle the problem of sexism in our community.
For our oblivious Dumbass, who claims to be a weary, longtime lurker (an obvious lie), Cupcake. Congratulations, Dumbass, you’ve hit just about all the Cupcake low notes. You’ve also done remarkably well on filling up our Cupcake Bingo cards. You are a Dumbass.
Classical Cipher @ 462, your words to Rebecca were beautiful and wonderful. I’ll ask to add my voice to them.
I only have one thing to add to this thread.
I am sick and tired of Michael Hawkins whinging.
really.
fuck off already, Hawkins.
Oh golly, you’re right. You’re *ever* so much cleverer than the rest of us. So sorry to have interrupted you — you were *just about* to share your utterly brilliant solution to the problem of sexism in the freethought community with us, I believe.
You know, that whole “ghetto built on a river” comment bothered me so fucking much but couldn’t exactly say why. The “you can’t build a ghetto on a river” explanation didn’t feel like that’s what was bothering me either.
I think its mainly since ghettos are awful places where minorities/hated communities have been herded into for segregation, degradation, and punishment. I’ve been to a ghetto, I’ve had good friends who lived in a ghetto, and I fucking hated, well, everything about it. I’ve always and still do live in poor areas but Phoenix has no real ghettos. Its still a huge difference between an actual ghetto and a poor/minority area. This place, I love this place, and its so…so..wrong, its not even fucking wrong to compare the two. How obtuse and…insensitive do you have to be to say that?
I’m actually shocked, though I really shouldn’t be. I can’t believe it took this long for me to figure out what my problem with this comment was. Good lord do I feel slow right now.
No you didn’t. Also, Cupcake, it should go without saying that if something is accidental, you could hardly call it outsmarting someone. There’s that intellectual poverty shining through. Again.
Oh great, I just saw our current troll come back and now it looks like I made a post to please them. Sadly, our meta troll can claim victory over those who comment on their posts and victory on the post on topic since the reason we are back on topic is because of them. Of course, trolls always claim victory anyways, despite all the facts.
You are not amusing. I hope you’re proud of yourself, you are what you hate. How exactly are we suppose to stay on topic with this shit going on? You think ignoring it will make it a-okay and go away? Are you really that stupid because honestly, ignoring that kind of shit always make people think its okay. Please review the chilly climate paper again, seriously, you clearly need educating. Of course, working brain cells would greatly improve your chances with that….
And I must say as a troll, you suck. I’m a fan of memebase and failblog and you are no where near as amusing as you think you are. It’s especially deplorable on such an important topic. Just post a fucking trollface and move on already.
AW fuck, please ignore all those damn spelling and grammar mistakes. I re-read that post so many times and yet when I post it, it transforms into that god awful mess. >.<
Caine, Fleur du Mal says:
“For our oblivious Dumbass, who claims to be a weary, longtime lurker (an obvious lie), Cupcake. Congratulations, Dumbass, you’ve hit just about all the Cupcake low notes. You’ve also done remarkably well on filling up our Cupcake Bingo cards. You are a Dumbass.”
So everyone but you can let this go. That’s really sad. It’s like you can’t but help make this extremely personal. I’d say something about taking a moment to look inside yourself to determine why you are perpetuating this, but we both now you’d just rather spit bile than let it go. (I keep responding to folks to prove a point that people would rather swim in shit, so what is your excuse). I shouldn’t, but I will indulge you. A little. I was here years before PZ got more than internet famous with his awesome Cracker shenanigans. But that shouldn’t matter one fucking bit, except apparently, to you, as you need to score points for some reason. Also, are you saying you disagree that Cupcake would be more offensive to a sexist nutter than the word dick? Because I find that hard to believe.
But hey, you mentioned Bingo there too and I like Bingo. Unfortunately I only qualify for one square besides the free one (the one about landings). But go on pretending I said more. I am sure it is hard to keep straight all the people you hate. I mean Jesus, I said Fuck a lot and told people to try to stick to the topic so the thread won’t be so shitty. I surely should have won that Bingo, shouldn’t I have? I surely should be the focus of your energy in here! Yeah, that was sarcasm. Please don’t go scanning through my posts either to prove me wrong, to try to score some more imaginary points, because that would just be sad and pathetic. Better to just stick with your wrong assertion.
PS – You win the internets, you can stop now.
You win the internets, you can stop now.
there’s only one logical response to this after reading your inanity:
liar.
“Not yet,” he answered, “would you like to take a look?”
Why are you still here after you said you were leaving ? Dumbass.
*We* could. If we wanted to, which we don’t.
*You* clearly can’t, seeing that you haven’t stuck a flounce yet. On a scale of 0 to 10, everyone scores your flounce routine in the low 2’s except for the East German judge, who gives it an 0.5 and promptly gets blitzed on her under-the-table stash of Stolichnaya.
Actually, ‘cupcake’ is common slang for a woman in the US. So yes, it can be seen as gendered. And you don’t need a weird point of view to hear it as such.
Not that I think anyone cares about that. No one ever explained about ghettos and rivers, either.
Just_A_Lurker says:
“How exactly are we suppose to stay on topic with this shit going on? You think ignoring it will make it a-okay and go away?”
So I swear a lot and complain that the thread is full of useless shit, and after all this time, you are still scratching your head going, gee, how can we ever get rid of this guy who is mad at people for going on tangents and getting in pissing matches, and who wants folks to stick to the important issues? Really? Are you serious? Also, when the sexist nutters start muddying the waters by throwing shit, you actually can note it, and then move on, rather than dwell on it and make it worse. I am not saying never insult, I am saying don’t make that the focus, the priority, like Mrs. Caine is doing.
I didn’t do this for the lulz, I did this because it genuinely pisses me off that, when reading these threads, most of it is shit. If you actually want to get through to more people, you have to increase the signal and cut way down on the noise. Unlike this:
Caine, Fleur du Mal says:
30 September 2011 at 7:41 am
“No you didn’t. Also, Cupcake, it should go without saying that if something is accidental, you could hardly call it outsmarting someone. There’s that intellectual poverty shining through. Again.”
Holy shit. You have a pathological need to be right, even on inconsequential tangental remarks. Where you don’t even take a moment to consider it may have been a joke, which it was I am sorry to say this, but you and Just A Lurker have serious priority issues. Are you here to discuss sexism, or slam people? Truly, truly, disappointing. Your content is disappointing, not your tone, you brain dead fucks. <— Surely those insults won't compel you to respond and ignore the real issues? I hope not. Good night?
Friendly says:
30 September 2011 at 8:06 am
you can stop now.
*We* could. If we wanted to, which we don’t.”
So you’d rather tussle with me than discuss sexism, which is what I was clearly saying up there? Wow, you’re an asshole. Or a really, really poor reader who is confused right now.
“Rorschach says:
30 September 2011 at 8:02 am
Why are you talking to me after I said I was leaving?
Why are you still here after you said you were leaving ? Dumbass.”
Because people keep talking to me. For some unknown reason. Except for Friendly, who apparently *wants* to be off topic? I guess being entertained, or scoring Internet Face Off Victory Points is more important, eh? Great job guys!
You. Ass. Fucking. Hole. This is extremely personal. This topic is extremely personal and if you knew how personal it was for Caine you wouldn’t dare pull that shit. No one believes your story of being here for soooo long yet being so fucking dumb. Good lord, they saved Walton after only two years!(No offense Walton, I love you now but fuck were you irritating before.)
What’s your excuse? You clearly demonstrate you know Not A Thing.
You pop off with throwing shit and then complain that we’re swimming in shit? Look in the mirror fuckhead.
Again, do you expect us to ignore comments and just let shit slide so you can feel better? Fuck you I don’t give a flying fuck what you want.
And for the last fucking time, Cupcake is not a gendered insult. There is a criteria list and its applied regardless of gender.
Here’s the fucking link http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Memes
Pro-tip: Ctl+F and search for “cupcake”.
Problem?/trollface
You could build a ghetto on the Ankh. It would not be too much of a stretch to describe it as a river of bile, either.
So really you do expect us to ignore them when they come here and pull such bullshit as “what about the menz” and “the bitch should be raped”? What the fuck is wrong with you?
FUCK OFF. You would still be here if we just fucking ignored you. This is Pharyngula, our tradition is to stomp trolls not let them fester. You idiot, have you never fucking read the comments here? FUCK THE HELL OFF since you hate it so much. We’ve made it clear your fucking whining isn’t going to work so run along now and find your own place.
Shouting “buaaaaw! Feeeeed me!” is not going to get you any friends here.
Your contribution towards the content you year for: 0
Your contribution towards the noise: pretty damn dominating for the last hours.
You could ask yourself why nobody likes you and improve and become a productive member of society. It’s not too late, even for you.
Two small bits of insight:
1: read those threads linked to uptread. You’ll understand more (and get lots of the “content” you yearn for.
2: The reason why we don’t consider if something might be a joke is because this is not a laughing matter. Anyone joking about it is very very likely to be part of the problem.
“Just_A_Lurker says:
30 September 2011 at 8:18 am
So everyone but you can let this go. That’s really sad. It’s like you can’t but help make this extremely personal.
You. Ass. Fucking. Hole. This is extremely personal. ”
The *this* I was referring to was the apparent need to focus on me and almost completely ignore the actual issue! That is OBVIOUS from what I wrote. No matter how many times I say hey let me go, stick to the topic, you two morons need to keep coming at me. It is ridiculous! If a guy TELLING YOU to stay on topic is keeping you from staying on topic, then there is really almost no hope for you. Jesus Fucking Christ! Stop with the lame ass excuses! They’re pathetic!
“And for the last fucking time, Cupcake is not a gendered insult.”
I NEVER SAID IT WAS. Do you really have a reading disability? I merely said a sexist guy would find it more insulting than dick. I said this several times since apparently it is not just you whose comprehension is blinded by rage. Good day.
Because you said this…
And you want to tell me you didn’t imply its gendered like calling a man a bitch? Thats exactly what you’re saying its offensive to men because it calling them something feminine, thats sexist and those insults like bitch are gendered. Hence why men get more offended over being called a bitch, then they do over being called a dick. Some men wear the title dickhead like a proud crown, but call them a bitch and they will kick your ass.
We rip apart trolls like you because we care about the issue at hand and you’re distracting us from it. How is this so hard to understand? We don’t give a fuck about you but we will set the record straight for everyone to see. Your kind of bullshit is not appreciated or appropriate so we will rip on you. Just like we do to MRAs because we care about the issue.
Fuck, and I’m the dense one?
Just stop feeding it.
Gnumann says:
“2: The reason why we don’t consider if something might be a joke is because this is not a laughing matter. Anyone joking about it is very very likely to be part of the problem.”
What we have here is a failure to communicate. What I have been involved with here is a laughing matter. Or a crying one, it goes back and forth. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the boatloads of individuals who, even after much prompting to stick to the real issues, would rather make personal attacks, score meaningless points and vigorously remain off topic. Why the hell would you, or anyone, not only allow this to continue, but defend the people who are doing it? Is that reasonable? No. Also recall, most of the discussion prior to me was some silly off topic discussion over tone, so it’s not like something amazing was happening. Hench why I got fed up again with the piss poor signal to noise ratio.
Just a Lurker:
“So really you do expect us to ignore them when they come here and pull such bullshit as “what about the menz” and “the bitch should be raped”? What the fuck is wrong with you? ”
Sigh. Again with the complete and utter lack of reading comprehension. When that happens, you don’t want things to devolve into an insult fest. You don’t make insults the focus, you try to reason with those fuckers. Scratch that, you shouldn’t do that, but others should try. You can’t even fucking deal with someone telling you to stay on topic. Now did that finally make sense to you, or do I need to say it yet again? Good day?
MRAs don’t come here to discuss, listen, or even be heard.
They come here to engage in thread bukkake.
Yes, my use of that word is deliberate.
Mine too for whatever, (much less I’m sure but still) that’s worth.
Good on you Rebecca Watson – don’t let the MRA turkeys get you down!
(Remember too that not all of us blokes are pigs.)