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Mar 18 2013

That’s libel

One of the pseudonymous harassers commenting at Michael Nugent’s blog is now just plain posting libel about me. It’s “Commander Tuvok”  – who will never have to face any consequences of his penchant for posting libel about people, because he is pseudonymous.

Meanwhile, we have Ophelia and her mob claiming terms such as “gender traitor”, “sister punisher” and “chill girl” were NOT taken up and used frequently by the Baboons and their followers. Just a pity the Pit has screencapped and documented dozens of examples of those terms being used with NO condemnation from the FfTB leadership. But this is typical of Ophelia and her insane sycophants – lying liars.

I claim no such thing. I said, truthfully, that I don’t call people “sister punisher” or “gender traitor.” I said what I do and don’t say. I don’t know which people “Commander Tuvok” means by “the Baboons” but in any case I said what I do and don’t say, not what other people do and don’t say.

And I am not a lying liar. And it is my real name and reputation attached to these smears, while “Commander Tuvok” keeps his own name and reputation clean by keeping them a secret.

 

95 comments

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  1. 1
    SallyStrange

    I’m just amazed that Nugent hasn’t shut down those comments yet.

    Amazed and disappointed.

  2. 2
    Ophelia Benson

    Not only has he not shut them down, he’s encouraging them.

  3. 3
    Stephanie Zvan

    Well, lying does seem to be the only stock in trade Tuvok has. This is the person who keeps going around telling people I asked Dawkins how he liked the pushback. Yeah. Didn’t happen. I wonder whether he believes these things or just thinks repeating them is a good tactic.

    It is a pity Nugent has decided to keep it going, though.

  4. 4
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    About the only time that “gender traitor” and “sister punisher” was in the aftermath of the first shit storm that happened after Rebecca Watson’s “Guys don’t do that.” and Richard Dawkins’ “Dear Muslimah”. And most of it was about who first said it and a general disliking of those terms.

    But it fits into their narrative of FtB being a stronghold of radfem.

    And it gives cover for the actions of MRAs like Justin Vacula, Wooly Bumblebee, Mykeru, Renee Hendricks, Astrokid and others.

    Because a true talk about feminism cannot be had without the blathering of people who hate feminism. It is like insisting that people like R*sh L*mb**gh have to be part of discussions about NAACP.

  5. 5
    sheila

    Donation for Ophelia.

  6. 6
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Micheal Nugent is not just keeping it going. He is being accommodating.

    At first, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, that he gave them enough room to show how ridiculous they are. I am sorry that I was wrong.

  7. 7
    Argle Bargle

    Okay Nugent, you’ve made your point and now you’re letting the misogynists make theirs. Shut it down.

  8. 8
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Here is AstroKid, a shithead who has tweeted threatening messages at Ophelia passing on JohnTheOther’s challenge to PZ Myers.

    While the Slymies love to go off about how they are the ones who threat women as adults, they, sure as shit, give cover for the MRAs.

  9. 9
    theoreticalgrrrl

    I’ve been reading your blog for a couple of years, the only time I’ve heard of that term ‘sister whatever’ is when they accuse people of saying it. They must have screenshots of their own comments. And why are those terms such a “gotcha” or proof that you’re evil or anti-women, but not their constant cunt, cunt, cunt, bitch, feminazi, and femistasi, or saying it wouldn’t be immoral to rape the women who blog at Skepchick ? It’s such a joke. They’re beyond pathetic.

  10. 10
    Bjarte Foshaug

    Just a pity the Pit has screencapped and documented dozens of examples of those terms being used with NO condemnation from the FfTB leadership.

    I’m checking the FtB archive for every occurence of “Sister punisher” and “gender traitor” right now. If this is the best thing they’ve got, I say bring it on. Show us the very worst!

  11. 11
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    But full grown adult women just laugh off the cunts, feminazis and femistasis as the obvious jokes they are. Also, full grown adult women would not have a problem with the dismantling of Radfem by MRAs. Full grown adult women takes seriously the words of JohnTheOther.

    Get it?

  12. 12
    Ophelia Benson

    >>They must have screenshots of their own comments.

    Ha! That would be funny.

  13. 13
    dshetty

    Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be a strong point of Commander Tuvok – it was pretty clear that you were saying you don’t use those terms – and he seems to be blaming you if someone who comments on your blog does so (even somewhere else).

    has anyone asked Michael what hi purpose in letting this go on and on is?

  14. 14
    hjhornbeck

    Janine @11:

    Excellent point. To these people, there’s nothing wrong with hurling “cunt” or “twat” at someone, because they’re just words. If you dare call them “sister punishers” or “gender traitors,” however, you have flung hateful words at them and done actual damage.

    To paraphrase someone else’s astute words on “sexism,” when did calling someone a “sister punisher” become worse than actually living up to that description?

  15. 15
    Lou Doench

    “Baboons”, That is a new one. I guess “Approved Male Chorus” was too classy.

  16. 16
    Ophelia Benson

    Ah it’s not new to them – it’s been the epithet of choice since the very dawn of their “movement” or is it their “community”…

  17. 17
    NitricAcid

    ” Full grown adult women takes seriously the words of JohnTheOther.”

    Is it bad that I mentally added, “…or it gets the hose again.” after this sentence?

  18. 18
    Bjarte Foshaug

    So, that’s “every occurence of the expression “sister punisher” for you right there. So far, this only confirms my first impression that the overwhelming majority of occurences are from slimepitters endlessly repeating the charge that “anyone who disagrees” with the “FTBullies is “typically” labeled “sister punisher” or “gender traitor”.

    There are a handful of uses (as opposed to mentionings!) from Melody and others (mostly in the very first link to Greta’s blog), where it refers to specific individuals with a known history of bullying and harrassing behaviors. If this is the worst they got, it just goes to show, as I said earlier, that it’s actually them who need to go actively looking for things to complain about.

    Stay tuned for the “gender traitors”. :-P

  19. 19
    Ophelia Benson

    And yet I explained so clearly yesterday that I am not Melody. I know this. I know Melody. She’s a 3 dimensional person just as I am, and we are unable to occupy the same space at the same time. Thus, we are two different people, who are not the same.

  20. 20
    hyperdeath

    The “Sister Punisher” nonsense came up recently in this thread.

    As far as I know, the phrase was used twice, about ten months ago, in this thread and this thread. A Google search picks up lots of posts, but they’re mainly from slympletons repeating the same lie.

  21. 21
    Bjarte Foshaug

    @Ophelia
    Yes I should have specified that. To be clear, I don’t blame Melody either. As I wrote with respect to. “chill girls” and “queen bees”, these are not slurs about groups of people, but labels that identify an individual as displaying certain patterns of behaviour or attitudes. That generally seems to be how Melody and the handful of other non-slimepitters who have talked about “sister punishers” are using this expression as well.

    Bottom line, there is nothing in there to justify the claim that the “sister punisher” label is either common (except with the slimepitters themselves) or used against “anyone who disagrees” or anyone whom the “#FTBullies” personally don’t like.

    The search for “gender traitor” brought up so many hits, that reading them all will have to wait until tomorrow, but there seems to be a lot of slime coming up here as well. Stay tuned!

  22. 22
    Jafafa Hots

    The first instance I know of the use of “chill girl” was when one woman used that term to describe herself.

  23. 23
    Stacy

    has anyone asked Michael what his purpose in letting this go on and on is

    Yes. I’ll take the liberty of quoting from his Facebook PM to me: “The only way to have an actual impact on problems like this is to engage in dialogue, regardless of how much we mistrust people who disagree with us.
    Otherwise the problems will simply continue to escalate.”

    I think he thinks our community is like Northern Ireland. But it’s not. We don’t have to live with these people. We don’t want to have anything to do with them; they can have their Slymepit and welcome to it; if they’d stop lying and harassing people we’d be happy to ignore them.

  24. 24
    Ophelia Benson

    “people who disagree with us”?

    Jesus fucking christ.

  25. 25
    Brony

    @ Bjarte Foshaug 10

    I’m checking the FtB archive for every occurence of “Sister punisher” and “gender traitor” right now. If this is the best thing they’ve got, I say bring it on. Show us the very worst!

    I drilled Commander Tuvok in one of the threads. He’s as cowardly as they come and continually shifts the subject, misrepresents peoples words, and other dishonest argumentative shenanigans, all while putting up a front like he is this rhetorical master. I would not bother looking around much because he will just claim that they were deleted or edited away. I already demanded such evidence from him and he did not provide.
    My challenge,
    http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/03/examples-of-nasty-pushback-against-some-feminists-on-the-internet/comment-page-1/#comment-195273
    His response,
    http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/03/examples-of-nasty-pushback-against-some-feminists-on-the-internet/comment-page-2/#comment-195464
    My response,
    http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/03/examples-of-nasty-pushback-against-some-feminists-on-the-internet/#comment-196219

    All front and no substance.

  26. 26
    Brony

    The “Slymepitter Cycle”

    1. Point out that FTB is opposing harassment consisting of waves of offensive persons using hostile triggering language that emotionally suppresses people.
    2. Receive counterclaim that FTB is also harassing and suppressive to messages that they don’t like.
    3. Demand evidence.
    4. Receive links to second hand claims (unsourced) or get no response.
    5. Investigate for yourself and discover Slymepitter harassment are outliers, Slymepitters, or non-existent.
    6. Return to step 2 with the same individual, or step 1 with a new person.

  27. 27
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    When Nugent first started this, I was guardedly and apprehensively hopeful. Once i saw what comments he allowed, i was less hopeful and didn’t go back. From what I’m hearing now, it seems like there was no reason to have any hope at all. it sounds like yet another bigotry-showcasing and accommodating fool’s errand where “men” MUST be allowed to puke out endless hate against women or else they’ll scream censorship!! and mangina!!

    And he’s *falling for it?!?!?! Ugh.

  28. 28
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Mick Nugent is some form of terrible person for putting his ideals for “conversation” ahead of the obvious harm happening.

    The Slymepit has taken terms that have been used a handful of times a few years ago and lied and lied and LIED about them being the standard language at FtB, while claiming that their hourly stalking and harassment is some sort of accidental outcome of their gathering together in the name of “free speech”.

    Funny. The ACLU is also gathered together in the name of free speech, but I’m pretty sure they’ve never Photoshopped anyone head onto a nude body, or gone around using sexist or racist slurs against their opponents, or anything else the Slymepit creeps are involved in. The ACLU does create positive change in American towns and cities by defending free speech rights against government infringement. So maybe free speech isn’t actually the point of the Slymepit? Possibly?

  29. 29
    Wowbagger, Designated Snarker

    Stacy wrote:

    Yes. I’ll take the liberty of quoting from his Facebook PM to me: “The only way to have an actual impact on problems like this is to engage in dialogue, regardless of how much we mistrust people who disagree with us.Otherwise the problems will simply continue to escalate.”

    As I’ve said before, the KKK still exists. Stormfront exists. Spearhead exists. AVFM exists. The Westborough Baptist Church exists. Does he believe that no-one’s tried to engage them in ‘dialogue’ before?

  30. 30
    Ophelia Benson

    Westboro Baptist still exists. I wonder what good it would do if Nugent did some posts about WBC and, say, the “fags” they say god hates, and the Phelps family commented there endlessly and vituperatively but no one else did. Would Nugent think he was “engaging in dialogue” and it was all very useful?

  31. 31
    Aratina Cage

    Get ready for the next wave of slime: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/15/eight-choices-we-can-make-to-help-move-beyond-the-rifts-in-the-atheist-and-skeptical-communities/#comment-202203

    Michael Nugent is going to start moderating comments that say people are lying or liars, and he will “deal with” comments that someone thinks are defamatory.

    I agree with Stacy that he has got the wrong idea on this whole situation. The reason the most vocal slimepitters keep getting ejected from different people’s blogs and personal spaces is because they behave the same way they are behaving at Nugent’s right now. Of course, most of them haven’t directly called anyone a “cunt” or “twat” there, but it would usually end up that way elsewhere. I’d like to see them call Michael Nugent half the things they said to you or PZ or Rebecca or Jennifurret, etc. and find out what his reaction to that is.

    I don’t think we should be pressured to put up with people like that–people who do those kinds of things to us or to our friends.

  32. 32
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Ophelia,

    Would Nugent blame “the fags” for being unwilling to come to the table, and respect the Phelps people if they posted lies and insults while avoiding using “fags” in the “conversation”?

    I know Dan Fincke would probably be overjoyed if he could have the WBC folks come to the table and be “civil” while using clean language to dehumanize homosexual people.

  33. 33
    Pierce R. Butler

    Goodbye Enemy Janine @ # 8: … they are the ones who threat women …

    Inspired tpyo of the day!

  34. 34
    Wowbagger, Designated Snarker

    I don’t know what Michael expects to happen.

    The scumhole creepers have made it quite clear they don’t intend to stop until they have unchallenged control over the content produced by people in the atheist community and no longer have to face the possibility they’ll have to hear/read about anything that isn’t within their narrow range of interests, i.e. that which reminds religious/woo-believing people are evil/stupid and that atheists and ‘skeptics’ are totes smart, cool and superior in every way.

  35. 35
    Hamilton Jacobi

    This reminds me of 2010-era accommodationists who would claim that the most damning evidence against us “militant” atheists is that we are well known to sit around patting each other on the back and calling ourselves “Brights.”

    Coincidentally, I heard that Commander Tuvok got his title because he is a lieutenant colonel in command of the 43rd Brights Infantry Regiment.

  36. 36
    Acolyte of Sagan

    Lou Doench
    March 18, 2013 at 2:31 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

    “Baboons”, That is a new one. I guess “Approved Male Chorus” was too classy

    And yet baboons live in male-dominated societies. Do these people never think it through?

  37. 37
    smhll

    As far as I know, the phrase was used twice, about ten months ago, in this thread and this thread. A Google search picks up lots of posts, but they’re mainly from slympletons repeating the same lie.

    Thanks for doing the research. That squares with my recollection. I’ve been reading the more strongly ‘pro-feminist’ blogs on FtB for about 18 months. I’ve seen the terms gender traitor and sister punisher used once in the comments here, and it wasn’t even a commenter with a name that was well known (to me). I’ve seen the accusation that the FtBorg calls “everyone” those names repeated at least five times. The over magnification verges on comical.

    Chill girl is used more often, but it sounds descriptive, not sneering to me.

    Maybe they want to suggest their own acronym for I.Am.Not.A.Feminist.Mostly. But.Of.Course.I.Am.An.Egalitarian .But.Some.Of.Those.Shrill.Feminists.Want.To.Take.Over is awfully long to type. IANAFMBOFIAAEBSOTSFWTTO. Or just IANAFMBOF for brevity?

    (What the heck name should I use?. Perhaps “I’ve got a bone to pick with feminism” is shorter than my prior suggestion. If we don’t all fall down giggling over the use of the word bone…)

  38. 38
    Acolyte of Sagan

    Ophelia, I’ve been posting here on and off for a while now without problems. Any particular reason my comments suddenly have to go to moderation?
    If I’ve said something wrong (and I really can’t think what) I can assure you it was inadvertent.

  39. 39
    thecynicalromantic

    “Chill girl” is a useful term. So is “mansplain.” Naming is powerful. Trying to pretend that naming bad behaviors is totes the same as hurling bigoted slurs around for no reason other than to see how unendingly hateful you can be is a massive false equivalence and a deliberate attempt to make sure that you can keep engaging in whatever the fuck shitty behavior you want and nobody will be able to call you on it.

    Oh, and same goes for “liar.” If you lie and someone catches you lying, and then they call you a liar, they aren’t “calling you names” and “being just as bad.” They are making a factual observation and pointing out that you did something. If they’re wrong and you didn’t lie, then they are indeed being arseholes for accusing you of lying. Congratulations! You have the moral high ground! If you actually were lying? Not so much.

  40. 40
    theoreticalgrrrl

    Isn’t saying that men who support feminism are “Manginas” or “White-Knighting” or an “All Approved Male Chorus” kinda saying the same thing as “Gender Traitor?

  41. 41
    Argle Bargle

    Isn’t saying that men who support feminism are “Manginas” or “White-Knighting” or an “All Approved Male Chorus” kinda saying the same thing as “Gender Traitor?

    You fail to understand the difference between “gender traitor” and “mangina.” The first term is supposedly used by FTB and therefore is bad! while the second term is used by the Slymepit and therefore is good. Context is everything in this. Whatever we say is automatically evil and whatever they say, even if it’s exactly the same thing, is pure and wonderful.

  42. 42
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The difference, theoreticalgrrrl, is this. FtB is a monolithic radfem structure; heavily moderated and controlled. The Slymies are the freest associated collection of people who just wish to point out how wrong we all are. Our insults are slurs. Their insults are jokes meant to educate.

  43. 43
    theoreticalgrrrl

    Ophelia,

    I just sent a small donation to B&W for you having to deal with these ridiculous lying turds. And for being my free-thinking feminist hero and an all-around cool chick. :)

    You really do make a difference, I hope you know that. <3

  44. 44
    A Hermit

    I think Michael Nugent is handling this brilliantly myself. He’s made his own position on sexism and harassment very clear, he’s given the ‘piitters the opportunity to discuss their supposed “issues” in a mature, respectful manner, and they have jumped at the chance to prove that they are the good guys.

    But they can’t resist doing what they do. They wear the mask of civility for as long as they can but now Nugent is having to moderate the comments because of their behavior. Nugent’s given them the rope and they are tying themselves in knots with it…

  45. 45
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    A Hermit,

    I said the same thing a little while back. We’re both wrong,..

    I expected Nugent to snap the rope tight. He hasn’t, and shows signs that he’s too much of a coward/bigot to ever do so.

    You know what animals do with rope that turns out to be string that will never snap tight to choke them? They MAKE NESTS OUT OF THEM. Look at idiot Nugent’s blog, and tell me that he hasn’t created a nest/home for the Slymepitters.

  46. 46
    LeftSidePositive

    Every time I hear of Dan Fincke’s version of “civility,” I think of the evil genius in Skullcrusher Mountain saying “would it kill you to be civil?!” to the woman he has kidnapped:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z53WLtowYBo

    Aaaand another thing–I don’t use the terms “sister punisher” and “gender traitor” because the terms just sound odd and clunky and weird (and some people use “gender traitor” to be transphobic, so I wouldn’t want to leave any room to be confused with THAT!) … but the ‘pitters are so busy stirring up faux outrage about alleging these terms are used, that they’ve forgotten to make any argument about why they even think these terms are wrong. Criticizing women who use their sexism-compliant behaviors to gain status at the expense of other women is a legitimate issue to point out. Otherwise it’s just a variant of “you have to be tolerant of my intolerance!!” Ostracizing people for value-neutral behavior or characteristics is bigoted; ostracizing people for doing demonstrable harm is necessary and responsible.

    Also, another huge eyeroll at “everyone who disagrees with them!” I’ve disagreed with Ophelia about a few things here and there; I’ve disagreed with Rebecca about a few things here and there…in neither case did I find it necessary to unhingedly call them “sister punishers” or whatever…rather, I addressed my objections to the content of the disagreement! (revolutionary concept for the ‘pitters, I know!). However, the ‘pitters would do well to learn that disagreements have content…and when the content of that disagreement is ABOUT whether or not it’s okay to viciously attack other women who speak up for their own boundaries, then it is perfectly accurate and relevant to point out that these women are in favor of marginalizing other women. (Also, I’ve yet to see them “just disagree” without bringing in a whole metric fuckton of misrepresentations and abuse, which in itself is marginalizing other women for one’s own “Mean Girls”-esque social standing!)

  47. 47
    LeftSidePositive

    Also, can I just say that Michael continuing to give these people pixels is further exacerbating my prior quibble I made about his attitude of being compulsively neutral? I think it’s increased from a quibble to a full-on objection by now.

  48. 48
    Parse

    The only bright point in the most recent thread is that Michael Nugent has announced that using certain words will drop a post into moderation.
    I expect he’ll see the true faces of the pitters, now that he’s done the Unforgivable Sin of not letting them say whatever they want.

  49. 49
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I cannot stop laughing.

    I didn’t read that comment but it sounds nice Zenspace, Michael should totally read it.

  50. 50
    Aratina Cage

    I’ve already tweeted this, but I did find the first mention of “chill girls” at Pharyngula on July 20, 2011 by needfulcarp: http://web.archive.org/web/20110722155446/http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/go_read_jennifer_ouellette_rig.php#comment-4528887

    She calls herself a “chill girl” in a positive light as opposed to those “unhinged girls”. So that upsets Tuvok, does it? *snicker* The slimepitters are jokes. They don’t do their research at all. After all, that would spoil the game.

  51. 51
    Aratina Cage

    It’s pretty obvious, too, that needfulcarp made that term up in contrast with the “chilly climate” Jennifer Ouellette was speaking of. Needfulcarp and chill girls like her don’t mind the chilly climate at all. They love the cold!

  52. 52
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Damn, I forgot all about needfulcarp. (I forget most trolls when they disappear.)

    Did you notice that the Slymie known as debaser71 was also in that thread.

  53. 53
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Here is a rather ironic post by debaser71

    He hates the tone of Pharyngula. Yet he seems to like the pit. I hope he does not let his daughters read the blog.

  54. 54
    Aratina Cage

    Did you notice that the Slymie known as debaser71 was also in that thread.

    Oy! I didn’t even see that, Janine. 20 comments by him, the first ones largely about how he doesn’t like women thinking he is a child molester. And saying he is “privileged” is just as bad as all the slurs and harassment from the ‘pitters flooding Pharyngula at the time. Very strange characters have been drawn to the pit, eh?

  55. 55
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Just a pity the Pit has screencapped and documented dozens of examples of those terms being used with NO condemnation from the FfTB leadership.

    Yeah, because they’re lumping one clearly problematic term (gender traitor), one that’s ambigous (sister-punisher) and one that was coined by one of them themselves together and treat them all alike.
    I don’t obsessively screecap stuff, but I have a fairly good memory.
    As evidenced by Aratina, “chill girl” originates with one of them.
    Sister-punisher was used (and discussed) in one particular thread over at Greta Christina’s blog. Personally I think it’s problematic since it puts women in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t position, but that’s clearly up for discussion. MOre importantly, it was never widely used, so that claim was simply wrong.

    Most hits of those two terms are discussion about them, usually after yet another accusation from the pit. Same as with the hits for “cunt” and such on FtB.

  56. 56
    thetalkingstove

    Those three terms are just standard, boiler-plate “arguments” that they throw out. It’s pathetic. As if they actually care whether or not those terms are damaging.

    It’s like when they try and accuse FTB-rs of being sexist or transphobic – they don’t actually give a crap about the victims of prejudice, only that they have a perceived card to play in the game of Us vs Them. It’s their hobby.

  57. 57
    Jackie

    they don’t actually give a crap about the victims of prejudice, only that they have a perceived card to play in the game of Us vs Them.

    QFFT!

    Alot of that going around, isn’t there?
    *cough*Dawkins*cough*Shermer*cough*

  58. 58
    hjhornbeck

    Anyone mind if I cross-post from Nugent’s latest entry?

    “Thank you to everyone who has, either publicly or privately, welcomed the dialogue taking place here and elsewhere on how to move beyond the rifts in the atheist and skeptic communities.”

    I don’t see much dialog here, Nugent. Dialog requires listening and understanding to be truly effective. The IRA was fighting for Irish independence from Britain; the Brits were trying to maintain law and order, and protect those citizens who didn’t want to be independent. Both sides thought they were doing the right thing. The hostilities only died down when both sides demonstrated they understood what the other wanted, by acknowledging it via the Good Friday Agreement and other treaties.

    What I see here is a lot of “Myers called me a nasty word!” or “Benson’s commenters are saying mean things!” That’s not understanding, that’s blind repetition. WHY did Myers call the Slyme Pit and allies “shrieking slimeweasels?” He wouldn’t say it if he didn’t think it was true. What evidence led him to conclude that? Once you can understand where he’s coming from, he stops being a demon who’s hijacked all of atheism, and instead becomes someone you can negotiate with.

  59. 59
    Ophelia Benson

    Yet another entry – because all the previous ones have done such a fabulous job of establishing “dialogue.”

    Has Nugent really not noticed that there is no dialogue, there is only endless ranting about the same five or six Designated Enemies from the same mostly pseudonymous harassers? Does Nugent really think that’s “dialogue”?

    Godalmighty.

  60. 60
    Ophelia Benson

    Acolyte @ 38 – no – and they’re not going into mod now, apparently. I don’t know what happened there. Sorry!

  61. 61
    dshetty

    @Stacy
    Thanks.
    The only way to have an actual impact on problems like this is to engage in dialogue,
    To a point I can understand that. But at some stage it does change from a dialogue to a never ending rant fest. Almost no one is actually discussing Michael’s post or suggestions.

  62. 62
    dshetty

    @Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar
    I know Dan Fincke would probably be overjoyed if he could have the WBC folks come to the table and be “civil” while using clean language to dehumanize homosexual people.
    Either you haven’t read Fincke or you haven’t understood what he’s saying.

  63. 63
    Ophelia Benson

    @ 61 – plus, it’s not as if no one has ever tried. I was in dialogue with some of them back in July 2011 – until all the “Twatson” bullshit started.

    Another problem with this “dialogue” is that nobody even knows who most of the participants are. It’s just a bunch of meaningless names – “tina” and “Eu” and “Jack” – who the hell are they? How is talking with ten or twelve random names in any sense a “dialogue” that will help us “move beyond the rifts in the atheist and skeptic communities”?

  64. 64
    Brony

    I guess I was wrong about looking up the data on the claims. If it’s useful, it’s useful.

  65. 65
    Bjarte Foshaug

    So, that’s every occurence of “gender traitor” down. Hardly suprising, the overwhelming majority of occurences are from slimepitters endlessly parroting the mantra that anybody who dares to question the “official dogma” of the FTB “hivemind” is automatically labeled “gender traitor”, “sister punisher” etc. The closest thing I could find to some actual uses (again, as opposed to mentionings) by non-slimepitters can be found here, here, here, and here.

    One interesing observation was seeing how many similar searches have been performed in the past*, apparently to dispell the myth that “gender traitor” is a commonly used slur against “anyone who disagrees” with the FTB crowd. That whole myth seems to stem from a single blogpost by somebody not affiliated with FTB as well as one/a few comment from a reader who later renounced the phrase after learning more about its homophobic/transphobic connotations.

    This may be old news to everyone else, but personally I also found it interesting to learn that the “gender traitor” label has been frequently applied to male feminists like Jason Thibeault by MRAs. I’m sure the Mildew crowd will go out of their way to call out crap like that to make sure it never happens again…

    The take-home message, however, is that I have just read everything ever written about about “sister punishers” and “gender traitors” on the entire FTB network since the beginning of time, and I’m pretty sure the handful of comments that the slimepitters have been raging about for nearly two years** amount to orders of magnitude less than the far, far more vicious attacks that Ophelia or Rebecca have to endure every f**king day. And this is coming from the very same people who accuse their targets of actively looking for things to complain about!
    __________________________________________
    * I strongly suspect it won’t be the last.
    ** My world view would not crumble if it should turn out that most of these supposedly “real skeptics” hadn’t even read any of them.

  66. 66
    Aratina Cage

    @Brony #64, I’m now waiting for Step 6 to be implemented. :) Somewhere, someone does not know that the original “chill girls” quote was dug up, and we can probably safely bet that Tuvok will not acknowledge it. Soon, that unsuspecting person will be confronted by Tuvok about those mean F”f”TBers making up nasty names for women they disagree with like “chill girls”, which is Step 2, and no one will know it all started with needfulcarp coining it and using it pridefully to distinguish herself as a woman who doesn’t mind a cool breeze icing over her every now and then.

  67. 67
    dshetty

    @Ophelia
    It’s just a bunch of meaningless names – “tina” and “Eu” and “Jack” – who the hell are they?
    Heh – i was just thinking that this is something that cant be resolved as an internet discussion – it needs a face to face – but with whom?

  68. 68
    Bjarte Foshaug

    @Brony #25

    About as effectively as the Black Knight on Monty Python.

    Yeah, that pretty much covers it :)

    My standard response to slimepitters who parrot the whole “FTBullies” idiocy, is that I can read for myself and don’t need them to tell me who’s been doing the bullying.

    End of argument.
    _

  69. 69
    Aratina Cage

    @Bjarte Foshaug #65
    You know, it’s funny. You provided four links and I think I have some insight into the use of “gender traitor” in them. The first one is to someone I don’t know bringing it up. The second link is to heddle, a bitter ex-Pharyngula troll, attributing that word to us from the safety of Ed’s blog where he retreated to even though we don’t use it. The third one is to a guy who is a friend to the original homeowner of the ‘pit. The fourth one is Caine referring to bluharmony by name (she posted under the name “gender traitor” at B&W in one thread long ago and then switched her name to “bluharmony” midway into it). So I don’t think we can conclude those are actual uses, at least not any that count for anything as our accusers would want it to. *smug grin*

  70. 70
    Aratina Cage

    In fact, the blog thread where “gender traitor” is used as a name on B&W is linked to by Caine in comment #511 on that Pharyngula thread you linked to (the fourth link), just in case a certain someone out there doesn’t believe me about it.

  71. 71
    Claus Larsen

    Ophelia,

    Libel is a crime. Crimes should and must be reported.

    If you think it is libel, sue.

    Don’t claim that something is libel, then do nothing.

    Don’t even threaten to sue.

    Just sue.

    If you don’t take legal action, you are merely crying “libel”, without really thinking it is.

    You just want other people to think so.

    With regards to the quote in question, it is not libel, because Commander Tuvok did not say that you have called people “sister punisher” or “gender traitor.”

    He said that you have denied that such terms have been used.

    That’s a whole different issue. Let me give you a similar example:

    A: “You deny that Hitler described Jews as untermenschen!”
    B: “I have never called Jews untermenschen! That’s libel!”

    Do you understand the difference now, Ophelia?

  72. 72
    Bjarte Foshaug

    @Aratina

    So I don’t think we can conclude those are actual uses, at least not any that count for anything as our accusers would want it to. *smug grin.

    And even if they were actual uses, it’s not very impressive, is it? That’s why I think “I can read for myself”, is such an effective answer. Whenever you compare their version of the story to the actual facts, it invariably turns out to be a case of cherry picking, distortions, proof by assertion, or things they pulled out of their butts. The same thing goes for all the horror stories about censorship and people who got their posts deleted for “only disagreeing”. I happen to have read quite a few of those posts before they were deleted, and they never just “disagreed”, did they? No, they did not.

    It is of course possible that I have missed some occurrences , but if so the very fact that I failed to find them, even while actively looking for them, just underscores how ridiculously out of proportion the slimepitters’ obsession with the “sister punisher”/”gender traitor” labels is compared to their actual usage. As I said earlier, I’m pretty sure everything ever written about “sister punishers” and “gender traitors” by non-slimepitters on all the blogs on the FTB network combined amount to a tiny fraction of the stuff Ophelia gets thrown at her in a single day, both in volume and in sheer ugliness.
    _____________________________________
    * if so, then please don’t hesitate to point them out to me. Show me the worst you got.

  73. 73
    Ophelia Benson

    Claus Larsen – you’re wrong about all of that.

    Stop giving me orders.

  74. 74
    Claus Larsen

    Ophelia,

    I understand how you can feel so slighted, if you cannot tell the difference between the comment from Commander Turok and what you thought he said.

    However, I am not giving you orders. I am explaining how it works in real life. Talk to your legal counsel, if you don’t believe me. But do yourself that favor. It will save you from losing face in the future.

    All the best.

  75. 75
    Ophelia Benson

    Yes of course you’re giving me orders. You just gave me two more.

    And you’re still wrong.

  76. 76
    Aratina Cage

    Dammit, Claus. Stop acting like you know better than Ophelia Benson about all this stuff. Besides, since when did libel become a “crime” in the sense that you can go to some enforcement agency about? That’s some serious bullshit. You don’t “report” libel; there is no public agency you can go to for that. And of course you can sue over it if you can afford it, as Ophelia already said.

  77. 77
    Claus Larsen

    Aratina,

    If you scroll back, you will see that I did not suggest that Ophelia went to some public law enforcement agency.

    If Ophelia doesn’t believe me, she can check with a lawyer. So can you.

  78. 78
    Brony

    Funny how the response from Claus reduces to “Stop talking and do what I say”. With zero references to claims as usual.

    In the real world people also criticize those they see as guilty of libel. They also have discussions about it, public ones even.

    Get over it.

  79. 79
    Ophelia Benson

    Claus Larsen – Yes you did. @ 71: “Libel is a crime. Crimes should and must be reported.” The only way to “report” crimes is to report them to a public law enforcement agency. That’s what reporting a crime means. Suing is not at all the same as reporting.

  80. 80
    Aratina Cage

    I did not suggest that Ophelia went to some public law enforcement agency.

    You smugly wrote this, “Libel is a crime. Crimes should and must be reported.” Do tell, Claus, where might one report the crime of libel?

  81. 81
    Aratina Cage

    Besides, Claus, as Ophelia Benson already said, you got it all wrong. You plucked out the wrong piece to nitpick over in the very beginning. I suggest you spend a little more time 1) being charitable to Ophelia Benson and 2) parsing what was actually said by everyone involved.

  82. 82
    Claus Larsen

    Ophelia,

    Ah, I see where the confusion sets in: You worked under the assumption that I was implicitly referring to a public law enforcement agency, where I thought I had made it clear, in the same post, that I was referring to a lawyer. That’s how libel cases go, through a lawyer first.

    As you can see, it is easy to clear up misunderstandings, if the willingness to do so is there.

    Aratina,

    See the above.

  83. 83
    Aratina Cage

    Woah. Step back, Claus! You do not “report” crimes to lawyers. That isn’t done.

  84. 84
    Ophelia Benson

    Claus Larsen, you mean, you got the words wrong. If I remember correctly you’re Danish, and getting the words wrong in a foreign language is wholly understandable. It was, however, you who got it wrong. I wasn’t “confused”; you got the words wrong. You’ve also been rude and bossy throughout. Now you’re being patronizing as well.

  85. 85
    Aratina Cage

    If this is a translation error, then I can understand the mistake, but it is still your mistake, Claus, not Ophelia’s. Best own up to it.

  86. 86
    Claus Larsen

    It is interesting to see how misunderstandings are handled.

    On one hand, I try to see things from other people’s perspective, which enabled me to understand that it was simple misunderstandings, and not malicious acts, on anybody’s part.

    On the other hand, anything I say is perceived either as my fault or seen as malicious, and even my motives are questioned.

    There is a world of difference in approach here.

  87. 87
    Ophelia Benson

    No. You just need to say you misspoke, and apologize for the previous comments. Instead you implied that I was confused.

  88. 88
    Aratina Cage

    anything I say is perceived either as my fault or seen as malicious, and even my motives are questioned.

    Claus, stop digging. That’s what I mean by “step back”. Stop digging yourself in. Stop!

  89. 89
    Brony

    @ Claus Larsen

    It is interesting to see how misunderstandings are handled.

    I could easily say the same. You clearly do not understand the purpose of the blog post, and in fact seem to be avoiding it. Why?

    On one hand, I try to see things from other people’s perspective, which enabled me to understand that it was simple misunderstandings, and not malicious acts, on anybody’s part.

    I don’t think I believe that. If that were true you would be trying to understand the perspective of the person who wrote the post by trying to understand why they thought the comment was libel. You did not therefore you are at least very selective in applying your ability to understand the perspective of others.

    On the other hand, anything I say is perceived either as my fault or seen as malicious, and even my motives are questioned.

    Yes I am questioning your motives. Because you came here to tell a person to stop talking about something. If you were only interested in the advice you were giving you would have simply told her to report the libel and not encouraged her to stop discussing it. But you are interested in the discussion ending. I have to wonder why.

    There is a world of difference in approach here.

    Perhaps you can offer some specifics?

  90. 90
    Claus Larsen

    It is likewise interesting to find myself presently receiving a lot of orders from the very same people who earlier chastised me for giving orders (though I was not).

    A world of difference, indeed.

  91. 91
    Ophelia Benson

    Claus Larsen – you’re acting like a complete jerk. This is my blog. I get to tell you how to comport yourself here. So far you’ve comported yourself like a complete jerk in every comment.

  92. 92
    Aratina Cage

    All of the following are orders:

    Don’t claim that something is libel, then do nothing.

    Don’t even threaten to sue.

    Just sue.

    Come again, Claus?

  93. 93
    Brony

    @ Claus Larson

    It is likewise interesting to find myself presently receiving a lot of orders from the very same people who earlier chastised me for giving orders (though I was not).

    Well the person who runs the blog is allowed to tell you to stop doing something. You are essentially a guest in someone’s home.

    Also you are very selective in what you respond to. If honest discussion were your goal you would be willing to respond to what a person says instead of redirecting with excuses.

    I definitely have good reason to question your motives.

  94. 94
    maddog1129

    Libel and slander, types of defamation, are civil wrongs under Anglo-American law. Civil wrongs are not the same thing as crimes. The person injured by a civil wrong may decide whether or not to seek legal redress for the wrong. For example, if someone is injured in an automobile accident, the injured party may decide whether or not they wish to undertake formal litigation. However, no one is legally obligated to litigate on pain of forfeiture of the right to talk about the accident. That’s simply absurd. There’s no rule that says, “you have to sue, or else you have to stop talking about it.”

  95. 95
    oolon

    Claus is I thought renowned for his obdurate nature? Anyway I found his snakes with eyelids thread to be one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=54742

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