Regular readers of this blog will know that I have never been a fan of former senator, vice-president, and now presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden. I strongly favored Bernie Sanders and Biden was way down the list of the many people who sought the nomination. Biden has always seemed to me to be shallow, lacking a central core of convictions, and thus easily swayed by pressure groups, lobbyists, and those whom he considers more powerful than him. He has been, like the Democratic party establishment, a loyal servant of the business class, especially those in the financial sector. His home state of Delaware is the choice of tax-evading and money-laundering companies because of its very loose regulatory structure.
All that is bad enough but he also has problems on the personal front. He is prone to saying and doing things that are thoughtless and offensive. His attitude towards, and behavior with, women have always been problematic, going all the way back to the shockingly bad way he treated Anita Hill and other women during the Clarence Thomas hearings in 1991 which is what led me to first realize his shallowness and lose respect for him. The recently revealed allegations of sexual assault by a former staffer Tara Reade when she worked for him back in 1993 are just the most serious and extreme of the many allegations of him behaving inappropriately with women.
And then there is his tone-deafness on race. The most recent example that has landed him in hot water is telling a black radio host that “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.” Critics charged that this is just another indication of how the Democratic party arrogantly takes the black vote for granted and does not feel it has to put in the kind of effort needed to earn their vote that they seem to put for the white working class vote that they are unlikely to make much inroads into anyway. Biden has apologized for the remark, saying that he was trying to be funny and that he should not have responded in such a flip manner to an important question.
While that is true, Biden’s statement and behavior revels an even more disturbing larger problem and that is how his early success in politics (he became a US senator in 1973 at the age of just 31, only leaving that office in 2009 to be vice-president until 2017) has likely insulated him from being taken to task for his problematic behavior towards women and people of color. He is a living, breathing example of the undeserved privileges that accrue simply from being a powerful white man in America that make you immune from the normal strictures that everyone else has to operate under.
Most of us tend to absorb the attitudes and prejudices that surrounded us as we were growing up, and for older people like Biden and me, these influences were generally not good. I for one now cringe at the kinds of things I thought and even said out loud when I was a young man, especially when it came to women. They were not abusive but just casually sexist and often said in jest, the way that Biden claims he says things. The difference is that I was not a powerful person and later in life had friends and other peers who were feminists and were in a position to correct me and who did not hesitate to let me know when what I was saying was wrong and why. After several such correctives, it dawned on me that I should become more self-aware of my prejudices and more circumspect in my attempts at ‘humor’. That led to a more general awareness of my ignorance about issues that lay outside my own experience, especially concerning gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality, and class. I wish I could go back in time to apologize for the things I said back then to so many people and groups, because they still weigh heavily on me.
I suspect that because he became such an important and influential figure at such a young age, Biden has not received similar rebukes for his actions because people tend to avoid confronting powerful people. This is likely why even though he is now older and should know better, he still breezily seems to assume that he can joke about people of color and women and not realize that others may not find his statements and actions at all humorous and may actively resent them.
I doubt that Biden will learn these lessons at this late stage in his life. We should not be surprised to hear more of things like this.
Still not half as dumb or offensive as the shit The Dump has been saying on a daily basis for years now.
It’s an amazing impulsive reaction. Show concern for Biden, someone points at Trump.
@#1:
“Half as bad” is a mighty weak recommendation.
Mark Dowd, #1:
It’s rather dumb and offensive to me that the basic standard here (at least for some) is how they’d compare a person to Trump. I remember a time, not very long ago, when that was not the type of game that many people were interested in playing. It could just be another fad, so I shouldn’t worry so much. But I have to say it’s one of the worst that they’ve ever invented. (In a way, it’s a bit more like a reflex…. If you’re not feeling the urge to reply “but Trump is worse!” then you might be doing a little better than most.)
Anyway, if that’s really how it should work — who knows? perhaps this new game is better — then it seems like anyone could say “well, at least he’s not Hitler,” about both Biden and Trump. Or for that matter, they could say it about anyone who’s not Hitler, which is currently everyone of course. It doesn’t feel like this game is an improvement to me. I mean, sure, you could say those sorts of things, but it’s hard to understand why people think statements like that are supposed to have such significance. If the point is that Biden is “not that bad,” it’s apparently just not saying much of anything. He’s as bad as Mano described — much worse, really as that only barely scratched the surface — and that is bad.
Since when was that not enough? And what the fuck does it matter how “dumb” or “offensive” you think he is, in comparison to somebody else? I do by the way consider rape, as well as several decades of racism, sexism, capitalist exploitation, etc., to be worse than mere dumbness or offensiveness. But even if I shouldn’t … what exactly is supposed to be the point? If it just doesn’t fucking suffice for you that a major political candidate for one of the most powerful positions on the planet has a fuckload of serious issues on practically every level (because blue no matter who), then you might still be a bit concerned that those are the precisely the reasons why giving him the nomination risks losing the election, which is presumably not what you want. (Probably, you didn’t want it last time either, but here we are.)
I think it’s pretty straightforward just to say something like “yep, those definitely are actual problems, and I’m having no trouble acknowledging that, independently of whatever I may think about any other person.” Or even something with a bit more substance, if you think any of this is important enough to be worth it. But did you think that it would help somehow, to give your quick assessment of the extent and duration of Trump’s dumbness and offensiveness? I just don’t see any useful information that I should take away from that. Was there supposed to be any?
If we all started to view voting not so much as electing someone to office but rather as giving someone our mandate we would be discussing character and platform instead of who is the lesser evil. I for one am tired of voting for old white men who continue to blindly fuck things up and can’t possibly represent my experience or take on this world.
” it seems like anyone could say “well, at least he’s not Hitler,” about both Biden and Trump. ”
The difference being that Hitler is the one person in the above sentence NOT running in the presidential election.
With that context, any discussion of Biden’s flaws is likely to turn into a proxy discussion of the election. Because even if this discussion begins among progressives, it doesn’t stay there.
I’m not interested in dismissing Biden’s flaws because he isn’t Trump.
But since we’re on the topic, I do think it’s interesting that the Media will take bad things said by Biden and make of them a week’s worth of stories, when during the same week Trump will literally say 5-10 things ***minimum*** that are worse. EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK.
So the question becomes, do we have a media that honestly considers such bad statements newsworthy and worrying on the part of someone who has no governmental power but might someday? Then why do they neglect coverage of worse statements by someone who has governmental power right now?
Even Tara Reade’s allegations, which, I agree are important and serious. Trump is currently seeking to suppress a request for a DNA sample that could prove his innocence of rape (at least for one of his victims). There are literally two groups of women of more than a dozen each who have accused Trump of behavior which would constitute sexual assault or rape. Two. Dozen.
How much time does our media spend openly fretting that we have a rapist in the White House? Fucking none.
No, as individuals we should be concerned about Biden and he should not be excused because his sins are less than those of Trump.
But we can be simultaneously appalled at the mendacity of our media in the face of the overwhelming evidence that they are eager to excuse rape and sexual assault and bullying in Trump while simultaneously eager to condemn Hillary not for her militarism or other actual faults but for being “over prepared” for a debate and to condemn Biden for serious faults that are less damning than the faults they tolerate (or celebrate) in Trump.
If we don’t want the next presidential campaign to turn up another candidate as bad as Biden, we do have to notice the difference in how such faults are treated between Hillary and Trump or between Biden and Trump, because noticing that difference is a necessary precondition to (metaphorically) beating our media about the head and neck with their own bad behavior until they learn to do better.
So the comparison is relevant, if you care about the US, but merely drawing the distinction without then doing something about how the media treats those distinctions is ineffective, point-missing wanking.
And if you criticize people for making those distinctions, you’re smothering in its sleep one of the best arguments we have to reform the media in a way that is absolutely required for the USA to become something other than a shithole country. The proper response to such comparisons isn’t to criticize them, but to notice whether or not people the people making such comparisons are doing anything productive with such comparisons and then criticize, where it exists, the lazy and ineffective use of such comparisons.
The necessary criticisms of Biden aren’t enough. It is the current set of conditions which permits a Biden that must be burned to ash, root and branch. And we can’t do that without noticing the differences between the behavior for which Biden is thoroughly (and entirely deservedly) criticized and the behavior of Trump.
cr:
Who else is going to contest the Presidency, if not Biden?
(is it really that dumb to compare an incumbent with their challenger?)
—
Marcus:
“Not half as bad” is stronger than “half as bad”, though.
(Also, not one trillonth as bad is also not half as bad)
I’m not saying Biden shouldn’t be president but he needs to get specific and explicit about serious things. Will he cover up what Trump is doing the way Obama covered up torture? Will he protect and support whistle blowers? If the country becomes unstable and civil disobedience becomes more common will he let local authorities abuse people? I feel our prison system gives information there.
The fact that the Democratic party isn’t acting according to the principles it should with respect to sexual harassment is a violation of trust. The bad must be part of the discussion. It’s my opinion that the places where the Ds are bad and the Rs are worse are good places to focus criticism and other outside force.
Brony, FWIW, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/15/joe-biden-pledges-not-to-pardon-trump-260147
(Of course, we all know what happens to promises before an election)
@Crip Duke 7
It’s not the distinction as much as it’s the avoidance of the the concern for me. I want to be helpful but I also don’t want avoidance or deflection.
I can think how to shame the media more effectively. Do you think it’s like when people victim blame or avoid criticism because the abuser is so difficult to deal with? Or the culture of the media being dominated by abusive personalities?
If I missed something you specifically would like addressed let me know.
@John Morales 10
It just words without assurances.
And it’s not about any specific issues related to the fact. That’s what the messages should be about.
And I’ll have to look for the places where he and Trump both look awful to make sure no one is avoiding anything.
Also this,
“Still not half as dumb or offensive as the shit The Dump has been saying on a daily basis for years now.”
…isn’t exactly deep an informative take that lets us all come away satisfied. If the badness of Trump is attached to actual engagement with Biden’s negatives that would be nice. Otherwise how is it anything but a deflection?
I absolutely think we should call out accountability avoidance efforts.
But if the problem is accountability avoidance, then the problem isn’t the comparison to Trump, it’s how the comparison is used and to what purpose.
Your comment at #2 isn’t wrong or problematic. You’re also merely identifying something, not describing what, if anything is wrong with it. I just find it incomplete, because I want the analysis laid bare:
Accountability avoidance is evil crap, whether or not it involves a comparison to Trump.
Comparisons to Trump are not evil crap. They’re a simple tool and are as good or bad as the use to which they’re put.
CR went farther, implying that comparisons to Trump are bad. And that’s what I have a problem with, because, again, they’re not inherently bad. They can be used for bad purposes, but so can a Hitachi Magic Wand.
Had you said what you said, my comment still might be relevant, but I probably wouldn’t have been motivated to write it. The combination of multiple comments, and the general trend of discussion, including both your comment and CR’s, but not limited to them, gave me enough motivation to write out my thinking.
Which again, is YES to comparisons to Trump, but people who make such comparisons are accountable for how they are used, and if they use them to bad ends -- like helping Biden avoid accountability -- then they should be critiqued for the bad ends, and not the mere comparison.
@Brony:
Which, I should have said, I believe places us in violent agreement. So, there’s no problem here, right?
@Crip Duke 15
We seem in agreement. Your comment makes more sense now.
Well, some people are hard to satisfy.
For example:
Brony: “I’m not saying Biden shouldn’t be president but he needs to get specific and explicit about serious things.”
Me: <provides example of Biden being specific and explicit about a serious thing>
Brony: “It just words without assurances.”
(So, my FWIW was worth nothing)
@John Morales 17
Not pardoning Trump is a bar so low I’m not feeling it.
And I’m annoyed with people pointing at Trump when the issue is a problem with Biden, and you posted an article with Biden pointing at Trump, when I’m concerned with problems with Biden.
@John Morales
I should say that “it’s just words” isn’t detailed enough on my part. Rather they aren’t words that have to do with problems associated with Biden, and they are easy words until they get to places that might reflect badly on the culture that lets Democrats ignore torture.
Brony:
Sure. The house is burning down, but one’s concern should be about the drip in the water hose dousing the fire. Better unscrew that leaky hose and go to the shop to buy a non-leaky one, right?
Priorities!
Thank you for the clarification. So “he needs to get specific and explicit about serious things specifically about Biden himself” is what you meant.
Hopefully, you can understand that I responded to what you actually wrote, not to what you meant to write.
—
End of the day, no candidate is going to be utterly and beatifically perfect.
Apparently, for some, if the a candidate is not perfect, it doesn’t matter one whit how much better they may be than the incumbent.
(How foolish to prefer them over a worse alternative!)
Me, I have no stake in the matter — I live on another continent.
But still, were I USAnian (I can’t bring myself to say ‘American’, since South Americans and Canadians among others are also Americans) I would focus on the relative merits of the applicable candidates, rather than their absolute merits.
As I do here in Oz — I have never ever in my life voted for a candidate with whose platform I concurred, but rather for the one whose platform was least bad.
Sheer pragmatism.
Such is life. 😐
Man, you guys are really screwed on this one. I think many of the Biden supporters (including those who support him begrudgingly) haven’t quite grasped the dimensions of just how hard they’ll be fucked over.
I’m not even gonna bother with the “What about Trump” crowd, because it’s irrelevant. BTW, Brony, you should probably start getting used to it, it’s not gonna go away, even after Trump himself is gone.
Biden signals the complete disempowerment of every relevant left wing group. It literally doesn’t matter whatever he said on the Breakfast Club, he could have called Charlamagne the n-word and it wouldn’t fundamentally change anything, he could shoot someone in 5th Avenue and it wouldn’t change anything.
Consistently every major Biden freak-out I’ve seen follows the same pattern.
1 A black/environment/immigration activist questions Biden, trying to push him into taking a more useful stance on any of those life-or-death topics.
2 Biden freaks the fuck out, raises his voice, tells them “This is all you get, if you don’t like it, go with the other guy”
3 Everyone gets over it, Trump is worse, so what are ya gonna do.
I’m not going to argue against whatever cute “lesser of two evils” argument anyone here has ready to shoot. It’s all true, whatever.
You are going to make a blood sacrifice to rid of Trump, not gonna tell you it’s not worth it, but maybe for future references you should know it’s more expensive than you may think.
He’s not going to budge on anything you want or need. He’s got your vote and he knows it. The bar is set at “better than Trump”, and he could clear it just by freezing things in their current (horrifying and unacceptable) state. His policies go from inadequate to harmful and there’s nothing you can do about it, and if he makes any significant strides, it will be backwards. He’s got enough leeway to be horrible and still better than Trump that there is no pressure any of you can realistically apply to him.
He can keep the children in cages, he can keep adding more, as long as he stays beneath Trump’s numbers fine fellows like Mark @1 will call it a victory.
If and when Biden succeeds, that will be the signal for the Democratic Party to completely drop the charade, there’s nothing they need to do to materially improve the life of any vulnerable group. “Vote for me or you’ll get the crazies” is all that’s needed. They don’t need to answer black reporters questions, “The republicans are proudly racist, I don’t give a fuck about your questions and, really, you don’t give a fuck about my answers, you can’t afford to let them win and I’m all you got”.
Any conflict you may have with the actions and priorities of the Democratic Party will be made irrelevant, because we all know how it ends. They’ll say no and you’ll stay in line. Protests can be ignored, calls to your representative are more his secretary’s problem than anything else. Your only real leverage is taking their power away and the party binary makes it so the only outcome you are getting if you do that is getting punished by a racist in a suit. Republicans are the stick, there’s no carrot.
When Biden wins you’ll lose all your political power. The ones who vote for him will have doubled down on “Voting blue as long as they’re Hitler-1” the ones who don’t will be revealed to be politically expendable. And it won’t be a 4 year loss, where you can get back to normal at the end of Biden’s 1st term.
Trump has been wildly successful (by republicans’ grotesque priorities), he got them all the tax cuts, the Supreme Court, and he’s still got their base around his little finger, even after fucking them over every other day. Future republican candidates would have to be crazy not to emulate Trump for the foreseeable future. There will always be an evil republican to stop, you’ll never be in a situation where you can afford to walk out on Dems, every argument with the Democratic party ends with “No, and fuck you for asking”.
It is damage control, it is the lesser evil, it is the moral thing to do. To think that you are not relinquishing your political power for probably decades by voting Biden is delusional.
Lurker from Mexico, so very coy!
Were you in the USA, would you vote for Biden, for Trump, or for neither?
Well, duh.
And I think you haven’t grasped the nub of it: it’s not whether one supports Biden per se, it’s whether one supports Biden over Trump.
Exactly. Reality is what it is, and one should start getting used to it.
(Again: duh)
Again with the non-realistic absolutism.
No; not irrelevant, merely less relevant.
(Again: duh)
So therefore, Biden should not win, lest one’s current political power be lost?
(Disingenuity, how does it work?)
IOW, the USA is fucked either way.
(Nothing like a counsel of despair to bring one’s spirits up, eh?)
—
Also, Mexico is in great shape, right?
biden is a doofus. but ain’t no way no how i will ever vote for the orange ferret wearing treason weasel
I’m not so sure it’s as bad as A Lurker from Mexico lays out (incidentally, I’m a Lurker from Canada, but I’m pretty aware of the American political landscape). Biden does not appear to have any core principles…his track record at any given point in his career has been determined by what he believes is the centrist position within his party, the uncontroversial middle. And the BIGGEST movement inside the Democratic Party right now, the progressive one, has drawn the center to the left quite substantially. Moreover, there is evidence to suggest that Biden recognizes this, and is not just content to rely on the votes of the African Americans, and other people he’s had on his side for awhile now (because he knows they won’t be enough). He’s nothing if not consistent (in methodology, not policy, obviously) -- he positions his decisions based on where the average Democratic voter is at the time…and since the party switch back in the early/mid-20th century, the average Democratic voter has never been as left-leaning as they are today. So in an era when even Republicans are proposing and supporting policies that they’d have dismissed as “socialist” even a year ago (like bills that pay out wages so that workers and their families can stay afloat, and so that their companies can keep them employed during this crisis while being able to focus their limited resources on things that ensure the company will still BE there after CoViD), there is reason to be optimistic here…if elected, Biden WILL be more progressive than Obama, I can say that with confidence at this point in time. Granted, Obama wasn’t so progressive, but incremental change for the better is the only thing on the menu right now.
Of course, Biden has some significant issues (understatement of the century)…but those should not dissuade progressives from taking the opportunity to save their country from the incredible damage Trump could do to it in another 4 years. If nothing else, he would almost certainly be able to solidify a regressive majority on the Supreme Court that will last at least a decade (and likely longer), and which, even in the presence of lawmakers who are capable of passing progressive legislation (like a version of Medicare For All), could easily do to those laws what they did to the ACA. Not to mention the threat to Roe v. Wade, and the fact that 22 states will make abortion illegal upon the reversal of this decision (which seems possible even now, nevermind if Trump gets to nominate a third justice). Moreover, the damage to other institutions that not just America, but the world is relying on, would be incalculable with another 4 years of Trump in office. And there is pretty solid consensus among Americans that we need some kind of treaty on climate change (70% of Americans supported the Paris deal), with the centrist position within the Democratic Party being that it needs to be binding (and I’d add, something that no GOP president can weasel out of, or make ineffectual by lack of enforcement)…this is something that Trump absolutely will not be a part of, but Biden? I’d give him a 40% chance of getting it done…whether it survives the courts is another issue altogether (given that Trump has already corrupted them…thanks people in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Florida who thought that Clinton was just as bad as Trump, and who stayed home in 2016!!), but it’s still better to try and fail than not to try.
It’s also important to not give into the doom and gloom, nothing’s ever going to change fatalism for which some are advocating. I know a lot of Americans who are active in their local political area, who protest, who volunteer, who are helping their own community in many ways. In the US, so much power is delegated to local officials, so it is possible to change the overall system by improving a plurality of localities, even if the federal government isn’t on board with those changes. This can be done no matter who wins in November, and it is arguably JUST as necessary (more necessary really) to making America into a fairer, more equitable country as voting for Biden. Additionally, joining the Democratic Party and voting for progressives to join the DNC is a way to gradually change the priorities of that corporation, and the party it controls, so that Americans aren’t stuck with milquetoast centrist Democratic presidential candidates in the 2030s and 2040s. I’m not saying it’ll be easy to disrupt the corporatocracy that is the two-party system in America…but again, better to try and fail than not try at all.
John Morales
Depending on where in the USA, it may not matter one bit, fun system. In a place that mattered I might vote Biden. In a place that didn’t I might not bother to go at all, or vote Green in the hopes that they gain enough viability to break the bipartisan stranglehold. It probably wouldn’t, but sometimes pragmatism boils down to picking the lesser of two hail marys.
No, completely irrelevant. They can absolutely stonewall whatever the hell you are talking about and get away with it. The conversation is over before it starts. You can’t afford to walk away. They can afford to fuck you over. Dialog won’t accomplish anything other than having you vent before the dems do whatever they were gonna do in the first place.
Or tell me how does this work? I’m a Democratic politician, you want something, you need something. Perhaps a matter of existential danger to yourself or the people you love. I decide that I’m not gonna do that. Because of the donors, because I have a personal stake somehow, or even because of my own stubbornness. I know the party leadership will endorse me over any outsider you bring to primary me, plus the many steps that have been taken to give me an edge on that front, I know you won’t vote for my main opponent on account of them being more monstrous than me, and for the most part you also won’t go for third options or stay at home, since doing either will put you in danger of letting my monstrous main opponent win.
How exactly do you think you can influence me into doing the thing you need once you’ve giving up all your leverage?
Didn’t say that. It’s not really my call.
Different people would reach different conclusions.
People who are well off, or believe they will be under Biden may knowingly and willingly give up that power and be perfectly comfortable with that decision.
People who will be, or believe they will be left behind by Biden may do the opposite approach and cling to that power even with the implications that that clinging will have. And they’ll be comfortable doing that, letting the Dems lose so they know they have to listen.
I’d say most people are somewhere between those two extremes. They won’t be fine with Biden, but they won’t be so completely left in the dust as to not see the difference between him and Trump. They may or may not willingly make themselves politically irrelevant. And no matter what they choose it won’t be comfortable.
For the most part I think that most of the people who are comfortable with their decision are ignorant or in denial of the powerlessness they’ll be facing moving forward in case Biden wins.
Since I know you don’t believe what I said I’m going to phrase the question like this: IF voting for Biden meant an absolute loss of say on any and all decisions moving forward, would you do it to beat Trump?
Not gonna judge, it’s a tough question. Just curious.
Strangely, yes. Thanks for asking.
We get daily press conferences, with the president in the morning, and in the afternoon with epidemiologist Hugo Lopez-Gatell, Subsecretary of Health. There has been a lot of open communication on how the infection is spreading, how they portray their models and statistics, and what the population should do/expect on every given phase.
Government coordination has been so good that they managed to increase ICU beds in Mexico City by almost a tenfold. Plus the many Hospitals that the previous administrations had left unfinished that are now serving as COVID treatment centers and the hospitals that Secretaría de Marina is currently managing.
Altogether we’ve got less deaths and cases per million than several, much better prepared countries, and seem to be flattening the curve. There’s still the risk of a second wave in June, but the only way you don’t have a second wave is having everyone get sick at the same time, and new yorkers can tell you how bad of an idea that is.
On the downside, we’re feeling the economic burn from the quarantine, but I don’t think there was any way to avoid that hit. So in general I’m damn glad we got AMLO. It would be nice if the US could emulate that but you’d basically need Bernie Sanders to create his own party from the ground up, win by a massive margin and take most centrists and right wingers out of the equation. But I understand that the US has several systems and locks and gatekeepers in place that make what happened in Mexico basically an impossible pipe dream there, so yeah, shucks.
Lurker, your response was so earnest and well-natured I don’t have the heart to dispute you, other than to note that your idea that ordinary voters have zero influence upon the Democratic Party still reeks of despair to me.
(Also, it’s nice to see your optimism about Mexico)
Unfortunately, because I live in New York, I have no influence upon who becomes the Democratic Party presidential candidate — Biden is already a done deal.
Yes, the November election will be about which is the lesser evil (though I suppose we could always vote for Cthulu 🙂 ) But politics is always about trade-offs and choosing among unpalatable options. And, yes it matters. No matter how bad things are, it can always be worse. However pathetic Biden is, he’s still the lesser evil.
Also: the presidential race is not the only one that matters. The reason the Tea Party folks are in power is because they pushed their candidates and their agenda at every level of government, from school boards and sewer districts and village boards on up. Right now, in my district, we have 8 (?) people running to replace our local Apparachik on the Democratic line for Congress, and they do have different views. Last congressional election, in a district not too far away, a radical non-apparachik managed to beat a Democratic party toady and then went on to win the congressional seat.
It’s going to be a long, slow grind. The Tea Partiers spent decades building their empire, building a progressive power base will take at least that long. If you’re not willing to stick it out for the long haul, you have no standing to bitch and moan about your choices at election time.
John Morales @10:
According to fivethirtyeight, they have about 25% chance of being fulfilled (or being seriously pursued) if the candidate is elected.
I don’t know how so many people were convinced Joe Biden was the best (and for some people, only) chance at beating President Idiot. I haven’t seen a single convincing argument in his favour that didn’t amount to “he’s not Donald Trump.” If that’s all it takes, ANYONE can beat him. And that’s before you get into how disgusting I find it that the first time I saw any enthusiastic support for him was when he was accused of sexual assault.
I’ve been willing to engage in lesser-evil voting in the past, but that willingness is REALLY being tested this time around.
ColeYote, here’s a hypothesis from another blog’s comments I find rather plausible:
—
Also,
If you don’t, that’s one less vote Trump’s opponent will get.
(Yeah, I know you know that, and suspect you’re mainly venting. Understandable, too)
@John Morales 20
No leaky faucets or pipes. I get the meaning, but in a political situation you will need to be able to connect it to what someone is actually asking about. Mano because it’s their article, and mine as an individual.
It’s a useful time to apply political pressure as a non-partisan. You’re going to have to get a lot more specific to change my behavior. I’ve got plans, but I’m willing to consider suggestions if they actually treat me as more than a vote.
Brony, I have zero interest in changing your behaviour, and I wonder why you ever imagined that. You want to vent about Biden being less than perfect, go for it.
Just be aware what the only realistic (as opposed to imaginable) alternative to Biden is during this particular electoral cycle.
I myself am very aware of Biden’s flaws, but again (a) I have no particular stake in that matter, and (b) I am a pragmatist, not an idealist.
Be aware that I do have some idea of what the political landscape is like in the USA; this video seems not too far off the mark to me, for example:
America’s Stunted Political Spectrum.
PS
That’s functionally what I’m doing in this thread, though my motive is more that I like to argue with people whilst still not being wrong.
I’m not that much of a do-gooder — perhaps just a little bit.
I would much prefer a happier outcome for you mob, to be honest.
@John Morales 32
Changed behavior seemed a reasonable goal with respect to your criticism. I am voting for Biden so I’m unsure of the usefulness of your information.
@John Morales
Would it help to know I’ve sworn off positive criticism of Ds and Rs? If they both die of heart attacks while out posturing one another with respect to sexual harassment I would consider that a good outcome.
I’m hoping to get good enough that it has an effect. If I’m really lucky I get people so upset they start hating the basic behavior that propagates rape culture. And other things like currency. I think makes us vulnerable to caring about things more than people.
I hope that helps.
@John Morales
It would also be fair to say you have skin in the game in terms of my goals so there’s that too.
Brony, last thing I want to do is to discourage you. For what that’s worth.
@John Morales
That’s just it. I’m not discouraged. Why should I be discouraged by anything?
@John Morales
If anything this is another opportunity to live my politics. I’ve chosen a very overtly negative path in terms of if general political disposition. I’m not saying you aren’t seeing something but it might not be what you think. My experience of society is very negative in general.
Great attitude. Others are discouraged by, ahem, “The Biden problem”.
—
And that’s a thing: I’ve not heard anyone (other than those who have an obligation to do so) actually genuinely be enthused by him; rather, he seems to me to be a compromise candidate reluctantly endorsed.
@John Morales
I haven’t seen a lot of enthusiasm for Biden either. I’ve seen people decide to vote for Biden. I’ve decided to vote for him. I’m not enthusiastic about it.
It’s a different political obstacle for me I and recently decided that “clown society” is a good source of inspiration as a person with tourette syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clown_society
Discouragement is temporary and I have actual social impulsivity to thank for it. I get “stir crazy”.
And I’m already thinking about how to avoid appropriation in that link. I’ll keep looking at the examples I can call from. Socrates’s “social gadfly” attitude isn’t in there but I consider it implicitly part of the general category of the anthropology concept. Jesters having freedom to mock society is another. I’ve got options.
@Brony As you can probably infer from my comments, I have no clue how you (or anyone not worth at least a million dollars) can successfully apply political pressure as a non-partisan (or as a partisan, for that matter) in the event of a Biden presidency. Every avenue I know of will be closed.
But if he loses (and he might). I’d tell you to take ownership of that loss. I’d tell that to any group that wants to have any say in the future to do just that. Own it, even if it isn’t yours, even if you’re stealing it. Even if you voted for him and got other people to do the same. Even if 99% of Sanders supporters/environmentalists/immigrant rights advocates/black people, vote for him, tell the democrats they should’ve listened harder. If Biden loses, you’ll need to communicate to the party “Yes, it was me, you’ll listen to me or I’ll do it again, I can take away your power, I can take away your party’s viability, don’t cross me”. When shit hits the fan, any power that doesn’t include some real form of coercion is no power at all.
Ideally you shouldn’t need to make that ultimatum in every request to every politician. But if that backbone isn’t there, behind the civilized language, behind the softer forms of power, you’ll be safe to step on. The ultimate Biden problem is that he knows (certainly believes) that that backbone isn’t there, and since he has already vowed to be a 1 term president, you’ll prove him right in November an you’ll never get the chance to prove him wrong later on. Not to be discouraging, you may try to get serious about power with other democrats at the state and local levels, but most of the arguments that allow Biden to do his thing scale down pretty well.
@A Lurker from Mexico
“@Brony As you can probably infer from my comments, I have no clue how you (or anyone not worth at least a million dollars) can successfully apply political pressure as a non-partisan (or as a partisan, for that matter) in the event of a Biden presidency. Every avenue I know of will be closed.”
That’s one of the reasons I’m applying pressure now with respect to the Ds. I see some of their choices as taking the easy path, thinking there’s a dependent group to count on. That’s why they’re only getting negative criticism from me. It’s a consequence. And I’ve gotten a lot better at putting pressure on the Rs. I’ll find ways after the election no matter how things go, and that’s not assuming that my culture isn’t irretrievably broken and needs to fall apart to be fixed.
“But if he loses (and he might). I’d tell you to take ownership of that loss. I’d tell that to any group that wants to have any say in the future to do just that. Own it, even if it isn’t yours, even if you’re stealing it. Even if you voted for him and got other people to do the same. Even if 99% of Sanders supporters/environmentalists/immigrant rights advocates/black people, vote for him, tell the democrats they should’ve listened harder. If Biden loses, you’ll need to communicate to the party “Yes, it was me, you’ll listen to me or I’ll do it again, I can take away your power, I can take away your party’s viability, don’t cross me”. When shit hits the fan, any power that doesn’t include some real form of coercion is no power at all.”
I’m already partially with you. I can’t say I’m taking their power, rather I gave them more of a chance to get it with my vote. I’m owning my shaming and criticism of shameworthy and criticism worthy things. They gambled with Biden and they need to be mature enough to accept the consequences of choosing “more bigoted Homer Simpson with boundary problems”. They can always address the problems people have with Biden and take concrete steps that address specific problems brought up by specific people. I don’t accept that refraining from shaming is necessary.
“Ideally you shouldn’t need to make that ultimatum in every request to every politician. But if that backbone isn’t there, behind the civilized language, behind the softer forms of power, you’ll be safe to step on. The ultimate Biden problem is that he knows (certainly believes) that that backbone isn’t there, and since he has already vowed to be a 1 term president, you’ll prove him right in November an you’ll never get the chance to prove him wrong later on. Not to be discouraging, you may try to get serious about power with other democrats at the state and local levels, but most of the arguments that allow Biden to do his thing scale down pretty well.”
I get serious with Ds in every encounter I have with them and I’m always looking for new ways. I leverage my place on the political left as a non-D. They and Rs need to be reminded that politics isn’t ultimately between parties, at it’s core it’s between two people figuring out what to do.
Consider all that is going on right now in Minneapolis. Will Trump really make it any worse? Will Biden make it any better?
robertbaden, in my estimation, the answers are “almost certainly” and “possibly”, respectively.