US hypocrisy on Israel


The Daily Show exposes the hypocrisy of the US government in that, while calling for an end to hostilities in Gaza, it is also rushing more weapons and ammunition to enable Israel to replenish the weapons stocks it has used up in the massive bombardment of Gaza so that it can keep bombing at the same high rate if the current ceasefire should break down. The assault has already resulted in the deaths of more than 1,800 Gazans of whom nearly 400 are children.

The Daily Show
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Meanwhile Stephen Colbert looks at how the US media uses language delicately to cover the conflict.

(These clips aired on July 31, 2014. To get suggestions on how to view clips of The Daily Show and The Colbert Report outside the US, please see this earlier post. If the videos autoplay, please see here for a diagnosis and possible solutions.)

Comments

  1. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    The Daily Show exposes the hypocrisy of the US government in that, while calling for an end to hostilities in Gaza, it is also rushing more weapons and ammunition to enable Israel to replenish the weapons stocks it has used up in the massive bombardment of Gaza so that it can keep bombing at the same high rate if the current ceasefire should break down.

    Hamas will keep firing rockets and launching terrorist attacks on a nation of millions of people that Hamas wants to see exterminated.

    If this war is over, wait a few years and it will happen again. We all know it, we’ve all seen it before

    As long as Hamas and groups with the same uncompromising, evil Islamist mindset rules Gaza it is very hard to see how there can ever be true and lasting peace in this region.

    No doubt the usual name-calling and reality denying will now commence for my stating this basic, observable fact.

    If there is to be peace between Israel and her enemies, those enemies need to get real, accept the jewish states existence and stop trying to committ genocide against her.

  2. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    PS. It isn’t hypocritical to re-arm a friend when they are out of ammo and under or facing attack. It is being an ally and loyal to your mates. That’s what the USA is doing here, being loyal, being a friend and ally and doing the right thing in standing up for what is good against what is evil.

    It is cruel and utterly monstrous to deny Israelis the right and ability to shoot back when shot at by evil groups who use their own children and people as cannon-fodder, as human shields and who exploit their deaths for public sympathy they – the Jihadists who controlled and started and are solely responsible for this recent conflict and so many others before it – are totally undeserving of.

    The victims of Gaza like the victims in Israel (less in number because Israel values life whereas Hamas does not -again simple, observable statement of fact) are all victims of Hamas and the Arab sides unquenchable fury at the reality that Israel exists and will continue to do so. Peacefully by its preference (& mine) but defending itself with deadly force when it has to.

  3. John Morales says

    [meta]

    StevoR, I’m not unimaginative, but even I would have difficulty parodying you.

    (You are an epitome of the banality of evil)

  4. rq says

    Funny, StevoR wasn’t around to spout this bullshit on those threads about bombed UN schools in Palestine, where Israel showed just how much it values life.

    No doubt the usual name-calling and reality denying will now commence for my stating this basic, observable fact.

    You’re such a martyr, StevoR. St Paul would be proud.

  5. Silentbob says

    @ 3 John Morales

    It’s not his fault! We forced him to do it with our name-calling and reality denying! If only we’d stop expressing contempt and recognize his right to exist spew hateful shit on someone else’s blog he wouldn’t have to be so banally evil.

  6. says

    If this war is over, wait a few years and it will happen again. We all know it, we’ve all seen it before

    Thank you, Stevie, for honestly admitting how counterproductive Israel’s vindictive punitive policies have been.

  7. says

    A couple of days ago, I got the latest issue of the Economist in the mail. Even though the Gaza carnage was the COVER STORY, this once-respected news weekly — which I had considered better than all US newspapers put together — couldn’t bring itself to devote more than two vague sentences to the Israeli siege of Gaza, and NOTHING about the actual consequences of that siege for the affected people. All they could say was that the siege would cause another generation of Palestinians to “grow up angry,” without even vaguely hinting at what they might be angry about.

    If even a long-respected and thoroughly professional organization like the Economist can’t report even the most basic facts about the Gaza siege, as Mano and some commenters have done here, then I think we should all start questioning how useful our mainstream “news” media are. My mother gave me a gift subscription to the Economist, and she renews it every Christmas, and it’s a gift I appreciate; but now I’m thinking of asking her to cancel it.

  8. says

    we should all start questioning how useful our mainstream “news” media are

    If you hadn’t gotten that memo by the end of the cuban missile crisis or the vietnam war, you are a bit behind the times.

  9. says

    PS. It isn’t hypocritical to re-arm a friend when they are out of ammo and under or facing attack.

    If you have a friend, and he takes up a defensive position on his neighbor’s lawn, claiming that he has a biblical right to the lawn, and starts shooting the neighbors kids when the complain, then takes the local police under fire (claiming it was an accident) and shoots the good humor truck to bits because it looks threatening — by all means re-arm them, asshole.

  10. says

    PS. It isn’t hypocritical to re-arm a friend when they are out of ammo and under or facing attack.

    Is is when you know his actions are only making him less safe, and you’re criticizing him for the very actions you’re enabling.

  11. dean says

    StevoR wasn’t around to spout this bullshit on those threads about bombed UN schools in Palestine, where Israel showed just how much it values life.

    He didn’t have to there – by ignoring most of the facts about those bombings and lying about the others he demonstrated the bombings either didn’t happen or caused by the Palestinians themselves, so it didn’t matter. (The fact that the victims were the wrong kind of people (to him) was just icing on the cake.)

  12. AsqJames says

    StevoR (#1):

    Hamas will keep firing rockets and launching terrorist attacks on a nation of millions of people that Hamas wants to see exterminated.

    And yet (according to Israeli security sources reported in Israeli media), Hamas didn’t fire any rockets into Israel between the ceasefire of November 2012 and June 30th this year. As late as June 25th, Hamas were reported to be arresting splinter groups who launched rockets into Israel.

    It is true that Hamas’s charter calls for the destruction of the state of Israel, but in signing the reconciliation agreement with the PA in April, they committed to honouring all previous agreements between the PA and Israel – including those which recognise Israel’s right to exist. Similar to Hamas’s charter, the Likud party platform seeks to deny Palestinians any land west of the river Jordan, and yet the Israeli government of which it is a member says they want peace and a two state solution.

    Are you willing to judge Likud (and their partners in government, some of whom are even more extreme) by the same standards you apply to Hamas?

  13. Chris J says

    If there is to be peace between Israel and her enemies, those enemies need to get real, accept the jewish states existence and stop trying to committ genocide against her.

    Least. Effective. Genocide. Ever.

    Seriously, at some point you have to take a step back and reconsider your actions if your “defense” consists of killing a hundred times more children than the number of your own civilians that have been killed.

  14. Holms says

    The IDF will keep firing artillery and stealing land on a nation of millions of people that the IDF wants to see exterminated.

    If this war is over, wait a few years and it will happen again. We all know it, we’ve all seen it before

    As long as the Netenyahu and groups with the same uncompromising, evil Zionist mindset rules Israel it is very hard to see how there can ever be true and lasting peace in this region.

    Fixed.

    It isn’t hypocritical to re-arm a friend when they are out of ammo and under or facing attack. It is being an ally and loyal to your mates. That’s what the USA is doing here, being loyal, being a friend and ally and doing the right thing in standing up for what is good against what is evil.

    But it is hypocritical to rearm your friend, if you are also in the process of telling them to stop shooting so much. Which was the entire point of this post and the linked clips; maybe you should read the post?

    Furthermore, even if it is your best friend in the world being criminally violent, it is decidedly not necessary for you to aid them in doing so out of mateship. That’s called being a co-conspirator, and makes you culpable. Instead, you should call upon this friend to do what is best for all involved: end the violence and submit to the police.

  15. Rob Grigjanis says

    StevoR @1:

    No doubt the usual name-calling and reality denying will now commence for my stating this basic, observable fact.

    Poor bloke. With apologies to the shade of Milton;

    O glorious strength,
    Put to the labour of a beast, debased
    Lower than bond-slave! Promise was that I
    Should Israel from Philistian yoke deliver!
    Ask for this great Deliverer now, and find him
    Gormless on Gaza, at the mill with slaves…

  16. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @3. John Morales :

    [meta] StevoR, I’m not unimaginative, but even I would have difficulty parodying you.
    (You are an epitome of the banality of evil)

    I’m evil? Bzzt. no. I’m just someone occasionally putting the other side of the issue to yours on the internet.

    Evil would be those who are trying to impose Islam on the world and kill everyone who disagrees with them – people like Hamas, Al Quaida, the Islamic State (formerly ISIS), the Taliban, etc ..

    Evil is doing real harm to real people not have arguments on the internet.

    @4. rq says

    Funny, StevoR wasn’t around to spout this bullshit on those threads about bombed UN schools in Palestine, where Israel showed just how much it values life.

    Interesting albeit predictable to note that you have already condemned Israel for that incident. The reality may well prove to be the opposite and if even if the shots that hit were Israel’s the whole war as the result of Hamas’es actions.

    Oh & commenting on this blog isn’t my day job or whole life it may surprise you to know.

    “No doubt the usual name-calling and reality denying will now commence for my stating this basic, observable fact.” -StevoR
    You’re such a martyr, StevoR. St Paul would be proud.

    (Shrug) Not really. Funny how my prediction there has since been borne out so correctly ain’t it? Thanks for proving me right.

    @9. Marcus Ranum :

    When an elected “representative” says they will unconditionally support Israel, they are saying “fuck democracy, muaahaaahaaaa!”

    Really? I see no logical reason or evidence for that ludicrously extraordinary claim whatsoever.

    No, when someone says they unconditionally support Israel, that’s exactly what they mean. Israel is a democracy – rare for that region and surrounded by hostile Islamist dictatorship. Supporting Israel is supporting democracy, opposing Israel is doing the reverse.

    @6. Raging Bee :

    “..If this war is over, wait a few years and it will happen again. We all know it, we’ve all seen it before.”
    Thank you, Stevie, for honestly admitting how counterproductive Israel’s vindictive punitive policies have been.

    Huh? No. My comment was a reference to Hamas behaviour not Israel’s and we all do know I’m right. Israel’s flaw was stopping before Hamas have been totally removed because they were too tender hearted and subjected to too much pressure from misled and misinformed useful fools like yourself.

    Israel doesn’t want war, we know this based on its actions. Hamas does want war which we also know from its actions.

    @8. Rob Grigjanis : “StevoR, if you change your name to Polly, I’ll give you a cracker.”

    What sort of cracker and how would you ever deliver it to me I wonder?

  17. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @ 11. Marcus Ranum :

    “PS. It isn’t hypocritical to re-arm a friend when they are out of ammo and under or facing attack.”– StevoR
    If you have a friend, and he takes up a defensive position on his neighbor’s lawn, claiming that he has a biblical right to the lawn, and starts shooting the neighbors kids when the complain, then takes the local police under fire (claiming it was an accident) and shoots the good humor truck to bits because it looks threatening — by all means re-arm them, asshole.

    & also #12. Raging Bee :

    “PS. It isn’t hypocritical to re-arm a friend when they are out of ammo and under or facing attack.” -StevoR
    Is is when you know his actions are only making him less safe, and you’re criticizing him for the very actions you’re enabling.

    You are wrongly presupposing that the situation is as you claim it is in those bad analogies. It is not.

    @14. AsqJames :

    StevoR (#1):
    “Hamas will keep firing rockets and launching terrorist attacks on a nation of millions of people that Hamas wants to see exterminated.”
    And yet (according to Israeli security sources reported in Israeli media), Hamas didn’t fire any rockets into Israel between the ceasefire of November 2012 and June 30th this year. As late as June 25th, Hamas were reported to be arresting splinter groups who launched rockets into Israel.

    (Emphasis added.) Dunno about anyone else but I tend to think a year starts on January 1st. So, sicne were only in August now, that wouldn’t be this year.

    Nor do I see it as overly relevant given subsequent more recent and pertinent events.

    It is true that Hamas’s charter calls for the destruction of the state of Israel, but in signing the reconciliation agreement with the PA in April, they committed to honouring all previous agreements between the PA and Israel – including those which recognise Israel’s right to exist. Similar to Hamas’s charter, the Likud party platform seeks to deny Palestinians any land west of the river Jordan, and yet the Israeli government of which it is a member says they want peace and a two state solution.

    Difference is that Israel has already offered a number of generous peace deals giving the Palestinians a state of their own. The Palestinians rejected those deals, walked away and followed their famous policy of never missing the opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.

    Just how many times do the Palestinians have to say “NO” before we take them at their word exactly? If they did want a state, which it seems they don’t, then I think they’ve blown their many chances.

  18. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    Continued :

    Are you willing to judge Likud (and their partners in government, some of whom are even more extreme) by the same standards you apply to Hamas?

    What makes you think I don’t already?

    I judge all people equally based on their words and actions. Likud, Hamas, me, you, everyone.

    Hamas actions and words show they are a genocidal evil bunch of terrorist douchecanoes.
    Israel’s words and actions – yes, even Likuds – say otherwise of them.

    @15. Chris J :

    “If there is to be peace between Israel and her enemies, those enemies need to get real, accept the jewish states existence and stop trying to committ genocide against her.”– StevoR
    Least. Effective. Genocide. Ever.

    Maybe, but that’s sure not for want of trying and wishing and attempting! Youalso forgot toadd thewords “so far” because the Arab side still, nearly seventy years later still hasn’t given up and is still carrying this nasty grudge of theirs.

    Move on Arabs! You tried to exterminate the Jewish state, you gave massacring Israel and driving its people into the sea your nastiest best shot many times, you’ve failed, accept it and get over it!

    Resettle your Arab refugees, stop your Islamic terrorism and just move on. There are so many ways to spend your lives so much better and more productively. Israel isn’t going to be butchered by you now or ever. No more Shoah, never again!

    Seriously, at some point you have to take a step back and reconsider your actions if your “defense” consists of killing a hundred times more children than the number of your own civilians that have been killed.

    You think Israel hasn’t done this? Israel has gone to great pains to avoid civilian casualties,*Hamas go out of their way to inflict them.

    The Gazan lives lost (as well as the Israeli ones) are *all* down to Hamas and their tactics and choices – place the blame for their deaths where it is deserved – on Hamas and their fellow islamic Jihadis.

    Hamas didn’t have to start this war – but they did.
    Hamas didn’t have to keep this war going – but they did.
    Hamas didn’t have to use their civilians as human shields and fire and store weapons and build tunnels where they chose to do so – but they did.

    * See :

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2014/07/gaza_civilian_casualties_while_hamas_targets_innocent_people_israel_tries.html

    I’ve posted this before here and its a well known fact of this war.

  19. says

    No, when someone says they unconditionally support Israel, that’s exactly what they mean

    Not when they are acting as a representative of the will of the people. By saying they unconditionally support Israel they are saying that they are not acting according to the will of their constituents.

    What is the level of US popular support for Israel? Less than unconditional.

    The best indication of Americans’ attitude toward Israel is found in the response to the most consistently asked question about the Middle East: “In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with Israel or with the Arab nations?” The organization that has conducted the most surveys is Gallup. Support for Israel in Gallup Polls has remained consistently around the 50% mark since 1967. In the most recent poll, reported by Gallup in February 2014, 62% sympathized with Israel, just below last year’s all-time high of 64%. By comparison only 18% expressed support for the Palestinians.

    (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/American_attitudes_toward_Israel.html)

    The issue of American support for Israel, outside of Congress and The White House is a fucking joke. Google around for nuggets of propaganda like this one:

    Poll: More Americans Sympathize With Israel

    Forty-three percent of adults say they sympathize more with Israel, 14 percent are more sympathetic toward Palestinians. But another 43 percent say they’re unsure.

    (NBC news)

    Wow!! What a plurality of public opinion!!!!
    The media is not simply spinning the reporting on who’s aggressing, but they’re manipulating the perception of popular support, in order to move the herd.

  20. AsqJames says

    @21. StevoR:

    @14. AsqJames :

    StevoR (#1):
    “Hamas will keep firing rockets and launching terrorist attacks on a nation of millions of people that Hamas wants to see exterminated.”
    And yet (according to Israeli security sources reported in Israeli media), Hamas didn’t fire any rockets into Israel between the ceasefire of November 2012 and June 30th this year. As late as June 25th, Hamas were reported to be arresting splinter groups who launched rockets into Israel.

    (Emphasis added.) Dunno about anyone else but I tend to think a year starts on January 1st. So, sicne were only in August now, that wouldn’t be this year.

    What? We haven’t had June yet this year? Did somebody change the calendar and not tell me?

    Let me lay it out for you:

    2012:
    – November: Ceasefire agreed.
    – December: No Hamas rockets.
    2013:
    – January: No Hamas rockets.
    – February: No Hamas rockets.
    – March: No Hamas rockets.
    – April: No Hamas rockets.
    – May: No Hamas rockets.
    – June: No Hamas rockets. (although I’m now unsure this month goes here)
    – July: No Hamas rockets.
    – August: No Hamas rockets.
    – September: No Hamas rockets.
    – October: No Hamas rockets.
    – November: No Hamas rockets.
    – December: No Hamas rockets.
    2014:
    – January: No Hamas rockets.
    – February: No Hamas rockets.
    – March: No Hamas rockets.
    – April: No Hamas rockets.
    Also: Hamas signs reconciliation agreement with Fatah, joins Palestinian Authority and recognises Israel by subscribing to all previous PA agreements. Israel responds by breaking off US led peace process talks.
    – May: No Hamas rockets.
    Also: IDF soldiers caught on CCTV & CNN cameras shooting dead 2 unarmed Palestinian teenagers.
    – June*: No Hamas rockets up to 30th.
    Also: 3 Israeli teenagers abducted and murdered by not-Hamas in not-Gaza (i.e. West Bank). Israeli government blames Hamas and goes on rampage in West Bank arresting approx. 60 Hamas members released under 2012 ceasefire agreement (an agreement which also stated specific conditions under which Israel could re-arrest said Hamas members. Conditions which had not at that point been met.) On 29th Israeli uses a missile from a drone to assassinate a senior Hamas member in Gaza (also contrary to 2012 ceasefire) along with 2 non-combatant members of his family.
    On 30th Hamas start firing rockets again.
    To be clear: This is a war crime. These are indiscriminate weapons which cannot be (and no attempt is made for them to be) aimed at legitimate military targets. Such crimes are not made legal by Israeli war crimes and breaches of ceasefire agreements leading up to this point.
    By the same token, Hamas firing these rockets does not justify subsequent war crimes committed by Israel…much less do they justify the actions leading up to it.
    – July-August: All hell breaks loose. Israel’s initial justification for their attacks is the abduction of the 3 teens. Then it’s to stop the rockets being fired into Israel (keep in mind the sequence of events above). Then it’s to destroy the “terror tunnels”.

    Perhaps if StevoR can rearrange the above to accurately reflect the calendar in his head we might understand why israel is entirely innocent and only acting in self-defense.

    * – Although apparently there was no June this year…or maybe it’s been postponed to later in the year (so we can have some nice weather just before Christmas??)

  21. rq says

    Interesting albeit predictable to note that you have already condemned Israel for that incident. The reality may well prove to be the opposite and if even if the shots that hit were Israel’s the whole war as the result of Hamas’es actions.

    I knew it, those dirty Hamas agents are over on the Israeli side of the line, holding Israeli fingers down on the fire buttons, to kill their own human shields and create Even More telegenic corpses! You call Israel a moral power, StevoR. That means Israel should have the sense to stop shooting at civilians, because they’re doing an awfully poor job of avoiding civilian casualties. No matter how they’re [the civilians] being used or placed by the opposite side.
    Because genocide in the past does not condone massive overkill in the present, especially with such an outrageous disbalance of power.

  22. Holms says

    “Evil is doing real harm to real people not have arguments on the internet.”
    Hence why we call you a war crimes apologist, as opposed to being an actual war criminal.

    “Interesting albeit predictable to note that you have already condemned Israel for that incident. The reality may well prove to be the opposite and if even if the shots that hit were Israel’s the whole war as the result of Hamas’es actions.”
    We have condemned Israel for that incident because the evidence gathered so far is quite damning; if you have not seen it, it is not on us to do your research for you. Granted, you may not have the time to spend researching this topic (that said, the information is damn easy to find), but if you know you are uninformed, perhaps refrain from commentary?

    “Not really. Funny how my prediction there has since been borne out so correctly ain’t it? Thanks for proving me right.”
    The problem I have with your ‘people are going to insult me for this, but…’ routine is that it is all too commonly followed by rank ignorance. We would insult you less if you ever came to these threads better informed.

    “No, when someone says they unconditionally support Israel, that’s exactly what they mean.”
    Except unconditional support is itself a problem. The aid provided to Israel should come with conditions along the lines of ‘don’t do illegal shit’. Aiding them while they do said illegal shit amounts to an endorsement of it.

    “Huh? No. My comment was a reference to Hamas behaviour not Israel’s and we all do know I’m right. Israel’s flaw was stopping before Hamas have been totally removed because they were too tender hearted and subjected to too much pressure from misled and misinformed useful fools like yourself.”
    Wow, so in your view Israel is not being violent enough? See, this is precisely why you are considered a war crimes apologist.

    “(Emphasis added.) Dunno about anyone else but I tend to think a year starts on January 1st. So, sicne were only in August now, that wouldn’t be this year.”
    Clearly AsqJames was talking about the period starting on November 2012 and ending on June 30, 2014, also known as June 30, this year. Bloody hell man, you could only arrive at your nonsensical interpretation by completely ignoring the fact that he spelled out the years in the very text you bolded.

    “…the Arab side still, nearly seventy years later still hasn’t given up and is still carrying this nasty grudge of theirs… You tried to exterminate the Jewish state, you gave massacring Israel and driving its people into the sea your nastiest best shot many times, you’ve failed, accept it and get over it!”
    You appear to be unaware of the fact that not only is the current war an act of Israeli aggression, but the entire history of the region has been shaped by Israeli aggression since the very day Israel was founded. So no, you can’t blame the Arabs for wanting their annexed land back.

    That said, even if we completely ignore the nature of Israel, even if we assume the Arabs are to blame for every escalation in violence, that still does not permit anyone to commit war crimes. Not Hamas, NOR ISRAEL.

    Note that that last bit is the bit you continually forget, despite your strenuous claims to be applying your reasoning as evenly as possible. You just… aren’t being even handed in the slightest.

    “The Gazan lives lost (as well as the Israeli ones) are *all* down to Hamas and their tactics and choices – place the blame for their deaths where it is deserved – on Hamas and their fellow islamic Jihadis.

    Hamas didn’t have to start this war – but they did. [1]
    Hamas didn’t have to keep this war going – but they did. [2]
    Hamas didn’t have to use their civilians as human shields and fire and store weapons and build tunnels where they chose to do so – but they did.[3]”

    You have outdone yourself in this passage. This is some of the most outrageous wife-beaterish victim blaming (‘bitch look what you made me do to you!’), and chase this down with a rapid fire slew of lies.

    1) Israel is the aggressor in this conflict; but even if we give them the benefit of the doubt that this war is entirely due to Hamas, that still does not justify war crimes against them.
    2) Again, Israel is the aggressor and can choose to stop at any time, especially since the last time I looked at the respective body counts, Israel had inflicted 250 times more deaths in this single campaign than Hamas had throughout the entire year.
    3) This point of yours has been refuted frequently; not just by us, but by UN workers in the field.

  23. Chris J says

    You think Israel hasn’t done this?

    Not really, no.

    Israel has gone to great pains to avoid civilian casualties,*Hamas go out of their way to inflict them.

    And yet here we are, with over 2,000 dead, mostly Palestinian civilians. Both sides have utterly failed to live up to the goals you’ve ascribed to them, unless you think Hamas is stupid enough to want to commit suicide by Israeli bombs. link for stats up to august 1st

    3 Israeli civilians dead, despite all the rockets, and 1,054 Palestinian civilians dead, despite Israel’s precautions.

    By the way, those tactics Israel is using to try to eliminate civilian casualties? Sending text messages before a strike, dropping an empty bomb on a building? If terrorists are in the building, what in hell makes them think the terrorists are gonna stay put while the civilians leave? This has got to be by far the stupidest military tactic I’ve ever heard.

    There are only two ways I can make this make sense. One, they want to destroy infrastructure. Basically, just raze Gaza to the ground. Not the best goal in the world. Two, they want to terrorize the civilians. Even if that isn’t their goal, that’s what’s happening. A family sits around waiting to hear the buzz of their phones or a bang nearby, signaling they have to get their ass out or get killed.

    I don’t care which “side” you’re on; no matter how much you or Israel thinks that Israel is being as “careful” and “surgical” as possible, they’re left with over 1000 people’s worth of blood on their hands. Even if you think they had the best of intentions, don’t try to pretend this isn’t a huge problem.

  24. danzig says

    StevoR @20:
    Regarding an attack on a UN building.
    The reality may well prove to be the opposite and if even if the shots that hit were Israel’s the whole war as the result of Hamas’es actions.

    So even if Israel deliberately targeted civilians you would still blame it all on Hamas? Do you not think Israel should face the repercussions if they are guilty of these attacks?

  25. says

    Israel’s flaw was stopping before Hamas have been totally removed because they were too tender hearted and subjected to too much pressure from misled and misinformed useful fools like yourself.

    That’s the standard warmonger’s excuse when his policies fail: what’s obviously a total unmitigated catastrophic failure coulda shoulda woulda been a smashing success if only the warmongers had been allowed to kill more people, use more force, invade more countries, show more resolve, without being hobbled by doubters and questioners and lili-livered civilian wimps who care too much about humanity and justice… I’ve heard this excuse for the failure of the Shah, our failure in Vietnam, our failures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the failure of the War on Drugs, Hitler’s failure in Europe, blah fucking blah…

    But hey, thanks for crediting me with far more power over world events than I actually have. It was a nice ego-boost, but now I have to be honest and admit you’re full of shit.

  26. says

    If terrorists are in the building, what in hell makes them think the terrorists are gonna stay put while the civilians leave? This has got to be by far the stupidest military tactic I’ve ever heard.

    Not to mention that the terrorists will be able to leave faster, since the civilians will be burdened with babies, maybe elders, and whatever scarce necessities they can carry on short notice; while the terrorists will have only weapons to lug about.

    So yeah, just another item on a long list of jaw-droppingly stupid Israeli tactics.

  27. Chris J says

    @Raging Bee:

    And honestly, I highly doubt that every citizen will react perfectly to every warning, or even hear every warning. Imagine if a family hears an empty shell drops, panics, starts to leave, realizes they forgot something, and then tries to go back and get it when the bomb hits. Imagine if a phone is charging when the warning comes and nobody hears it ring.

    You don’t need Hamas to convince people to stay put, you just need fear and panic and stress. These aren’t trained military we’re talking about.

  28. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @ 30. Raging Bee :

    That’s the standard warmonger’s excuse when his policies fail: what’s obviously a total unmitigated catastrophic failure coulda shoulda woulda been a smashing success if only the warmongers had been allowed to kill more people, use more force, invade more countries, show more resolve, without being hobbled by doubters and questioners and lili-livered civilian wimps who care too much about humanity and justice…

    Even if that’s the case, it doesn’t make it untrue. Certainly in this case, Hamas needs to be destroyed or completely change and admit it cannot destroy Israel before a true & lasting peace can occur.

    Also I see a distinct lack of concern from you and those on your side of the argument when it comes to having justice and respecting the humanity of the Israeli people. Israelis have the right to exist in peace and live happily on their land without suffering terrorist or Arab dictatorships attacking them.

    @29. danzig :

    StevoR @20: Regarding an attack on a UN building.
    “The reality may well prove to be the opposite and if even if the shots that hit were Israel’s the whole war as the result of Hamas’es actions.”
    So even if Israel deliberately targeted civilians you would still blame it all on Hamas? Do you not think Israel should face the repercussions if they are guilty of these attacks?

    Yes – that is, yes *IF* (a very big ‘If’) any Israelis deliberately targeted civilians then they should face the appropriate penalties.

    Also, yes, the whole latest war is happening, we now know for sure, because of Hamas so ultimately it *is* all down to them – see :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT-a-WWJgBg&feature=share

    ‘Hamas Kidnapped & Killed Israeli Teens, Proving Devastating Stupidity’ the Young Turks youtube channel published 2014 August 21st.

    @ 28. Chris J :

    here we are, with over 2,000 dead, mostly Palestinian civilians. Both sides have utterly failed to live up to the goals you’ve ascribed to them, unless you think Hamas is stupid enough to want to commit suicide by Israeli bombs. link for stats up to august 1st. 3 Israeli civilians dead, despite all the rockets, and 1,054 Palestinian civilians dead, despite Israel’s precautions. By the way, those tactics Israel is using to try to eliminate civilian casualties? Sending text messages before a strike, dropping an empty bomb on a building? If terrorists are in the building, what in hell makes them think the terrorists are gonna stay put while the civilians leave? This has got to be by far the stupidest military tactic I’ve ever heard.

    Oh I can think of stupider military tactics – the trench warfare of WWI, Germany & France invading Russia in winter and, of course, the Hamassive stupidity of Hamas in this conflict -see Young Turks clip linked above.

    At least Israel gives the Gazan civilians some warning and some hope of escape, Hamas in their attacks are far less considerate.

    There are only two ways I can make this make sense. One, they want to destroy infrastructure. Basically, just raze Gaza to the ground. Not the best goal in the world. Two, they want to terrorize the civilians. Even if that isn’t their goal, that’s what’s happening. A family sits around waiting to hear the buzz of their phones or a bang nearby, signaling they have to get their ass out or get killed. I don’t care which “side” you’re on; no matter how much you or Israel thinks that Israel is being as “careful” and “surgical” as possible, they’re left with over 1000 people’s worth of blood on their hands. Even if you think they had the best of intentions, don’t try to pretend this isn’t a huge problem.

    It is a problem – for Hamas. The blood is on their hands – Hamas’es – not Israels because Hamas started this war, continued this war despite opportunities to stop and used the evil tactics that they did such as hiding weapons in schools and firing rockets from densely populated areas.

  29. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @26. rq :

    “Interesting albeit predictable to note that you have already condemned Israel for that incident. The reality may well prove to be the opposite and if even if the shots that hit were Israel’s the whole war as the result of Hamas’es actions.”
    I knew it, those dirty Hamas agents are over on the Israeli side of the line, holding Israeli fingers down on the fire buttons, to kill their own human shields and create Even More telegenic corpses! You call Israel a moral power, StevoR. That means Israel should have the sense to stop shooting at civilians, ..

    It isn’t shooting at civilians. Israel was shooting back at Hamas targets – which sometimes were located too close to civilian areas because Hamas leaders are cowards who refuse to fight in the open and get the “martyrdom” they claim to seek.

    Israel may or may not be termed a “moral power” whatever that means but they are definitely much more ethical than Hamas.

    .. because they’re doing an awfully poor job of avoiding civilian casualties. No matter how they’re [the civilians] being used or placed by the opposite side.

    Actually compared to what they could do and what weaponry they could use, Israel has been remarkably restrained. You are entitled to your erroneous opinion otherwise I ‘spose.

    Because genocide in the past does not condone massive overkill in the present, especially with such an outrageous disbalance of power.

    Answer as above.

    @25. AsqJames :

    What? We haven’t had June yet this year? Did somebody change the calendar and not tell me?

    We’ve had a June – we haven’t yet had our November this year.

    Also: 3 Israeli teenagers abducted and murdered by not-Hamas in not-Gaza (i.e. West Bank).

    Actually the three Israeli teenage civilians were abducted and murdered by Hamas after all as you can see from the clip linked in #33 above.

    On 30th Hamas start firing rockets again. To be clear: This is a war crime. These are indiscriminate weapons which cannot be (and no attempt is made for them to be) aimed at legitimate military targets. Such crimes are not made legal by Israeli war crimes and breaches of ceasefire agreements leading up to this point.

    Correct. For once you are right – and, no sarcasm, it is good that you acknowledge this. Too many on the Arab side do not.

    Hamas firing these rockets does not justify subsequent war crimes committed by Israel…

    You are wrongly assuming guilt on Israel’s part for alleged war crimes and the ignoring that whole situation would not have occurred had Hamas not started this war. Hamas started the conflict, it has to take the blame for the full consequences of the conflict as a result.

    Israel’s initial justification for their attacks is the abduction of the 3 teens. Then it’s to stop the rockets being fired into Israel (keep in mind the sequence of events above). Then it’s to destroy the “terror tunnels”.

    So? Those are all valid and reasonable casus belli in their own right and combined give israel an absolute right to take action in self-defence.

    @24. John Morales : How am I evil? I’m not.

  30. StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return! says

    @27. Hamas fan Holms :

    Hence why we call you a war crimes apologist, as opposed to being an actual war criminal.

    I am neither. Hamas is the side most guilty of most war crimes in this conflict FYI.

    We have condemned Israel for that incident because the evidence gathered so far is quite damning; if you have not seen it, it is not on us to do your research for you. Granted, you may not have the time to spend researching this topic (that said, the information is damn easy to find), but if you know you are uninformed, perhaps refrain from commentary?

    Given your comments here I suggest you take your own advice. BTW. Informed people know that Hamas fires from near UN facilities and stores weapons in them and thus is responsible for the consequences of this – see :

    http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-exclusive-video-hamas-rocket-launching-pad-near-gaza-homes-un-building/

    The problem I have with your ‘people are going to insult me for this, but…’ routine is that it is all too commonly followed by rank ignorance. We would insult you less if you ever came to these threads better informed.

    Really? I think I’m more well informed than you are. Which is one reason why I disagree with you because I see the Israeli side and perspective on this issue whereas you seem to reject it without any knowledge or thought of how things are for them. Disagreeing with Hamas and Arab propaganda points does not make me ignorant – quite the reverse in fact.

    Except unconditional support is itself a problem. The aid provided to Israel should come with conditions along the lines of ‘don’t do illegal shit’. Aiding them while they do said illegal shit amounts to an endorsement of it.

    For example – here. You assume that Hamas and Arab claims that what Israel does is illegal. Reality -and I disagree with you there. it is legal to shoot back when shot at and israel’s claims to Judea and Samaria are legal as well. (Jordan used to claim what it called its West Bank but renounced those claims in 1988 putting that area in a legal limbo and rendering out of date and void the already dubious UN resolutions calling for the return of the West Bank to Jordan which was its previous occupier until it joined the 1967 Arab attack on Israel. The Israeli settlements are thus not actually illegal. Also the Arabs also already have a state out of the partition of the former British-UN Mandate – Jordan which is much larger than tiny & historically Jewish Israel. )

    Wow, so in your view Israel is not being violent enough? See, this is precisely why you are considered a war crimes apologist.

    No, in my view Israel needs to remove Hamas from power & should have done so as a priority. This involves some necessary violence but not more extreme necessarily than what it has done already or war crimes necessarily. But whilst Hamas is there, there is going to be more wars and more violence and horrible suffering for eveyrbody. Hamas has to go.

    …You appear to be unaware of the fact that not only is the current war an act of Israeli aggression, but the entire history of the region has been shaped by Israeli aggression since the very day Israel was founded. So no, you can’t blame the Arabs for wanting their annexed land back.

    Wow! “Fact” eh? I don’t think so!

    The very day Israel was founded – you mean when the Davidic kingdom was divided in two or in 1948 when the Arab armies refused to accept the Jewish states existence and invaded it in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews? Arab land? Nope. Or at very best depends. Your dislike of Israel is very much colouring and warping your opinions here, Holms.

    That said, even if we completely ignore the nature of Israel, even if we assume the Arabs are to blame for every escalation in violence, that still does not permit anyone to commit war crimes. Not Hamas, NOR ISRAEL.

    NOR HAMAS nor the Arab side! Agreed. It isn’t stopping Hamas doing so anyway sadly.

    1) Israel is the aggressor in this conflict; but even if we give them the benefit of the doubt that this war is entirely due to Hamas, that still does not justify war crimes against them.

    Agreed this does not justify war crimes against Israel. Israel is not however the aggressor nor is it committing war crimes -certainly not on the scale or with the deliberate strategic intent to so so that Hamas is.

    2) Again, Israel is the aggressor and can choose to stop at any time, especially since the last time I looked at the respective body counts, Israel had inflicted 250 times more deaths in this single campaign than Hamas had throughout the entire year.

    Again, Israel is NOT the aggressor and it does have an obligation to protect its civilians from enemy attack. The casualty ratio reflects the cultural value each side places on human life ie, Israel values its innocent people and tries to protect them, Hamas does not and puts them in harms way instead.

    3) This point of yours has been refuted frequently; not just by us, but by UN workers in the field.

    The dictators debating club that is the, frankly, woeful and useless UN has long been notorious for bashing Israel and taking the Hamas-Arab side. It is therefore NOT a credible source.

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