We’ve been dealing with this ridiculous government shutdown, which was initiated because the Republican budget was promoting major cuts in health care support, among other billionaire favorites. If done properly, the purpose of such a shutdown would be to get concessions from the opposing party. Now the Democrats are talking about caving to the opposition.
The Senate on Sunday made significant progress towards ending the longest US government shutdown in history, narrowly advancing a compromise bill to reauthorize funding and undo the layoffs of some employees.
But the measure, which resulted from days of talks between a handful of Democratic and Republican senators, leaves out the healthcare subsidies that Democrats had demanded for weeks. Most Democratic senators rejected it, as did many of the party’s lawmakers in the House of Representatives, which will have to vote to approve it before the government can reopen.
“This healthcare crisis is so severe, so urgent, so devastating for families back home, that I cannot in good faith support this [resolution] that fails to address the healthcare crisis,” said Democratic Senator majority leader Chuck Schumer.
I hate having to agree with Chuck Schumer, but he’s right: this is just a surrender.
It wasn’t the whole Democratic party that gave up, but eight chickenshit Democrats who joined forces with the Republicans to try to endorse a “compromise” bill. These are the people who must be voted against in the future.
From top left: Democratic Sens. Dick Durbin, Jacky Rosen, John Fetterman and Catherine Cortez Masto. From bottom left: Democratic Sens. Jeanne Shaheen, Maggie Hassan and Tim Kaine, with independent Sen. Angus King.
I am not surprised to see Fetterman in there — he disappointed me long ago. But hey, Tim Kaine was a Democratic vice-presidential candidate once upon a time, with Hillary Clinton. Maybe I should have mistrusted him even more.
If this compromise bill goes through, brace yourself for a big jump in the cost of health care.
The compromise does not resolved the issue of the Affordable Care Act premiums, which one study forecast would jump by an average of 26% if the tax credits were allowed to expire.
Keep in mind that that 26% goes straight from your pocket into the coffers of insurance companies, because of the fucked up way health care is managed in this country, with unnecessary middlemen inserted into the process.
Welp, my life may suck a lot more, soon.
These eight -plus Chuck Shumer- need to be primaried. If Republicans did this to their party they would be finished.
Others online have pointed out that none of these eight are up for re-election next year, so most likely they were chosen to be the ones to vote this way by the larger caucus to give cover to more vulnerable senators.
@3: I worry about how much sense that makes.
“If this compromise bill goes through, brace yourself for
a biganother bigger jump in the cost of health care.” FIFY — healthcare costs, including my own, have already started jumping.Maybe these Democrats hate Mamdani so much they’re willing to undermine their whole party just to punish him and set back any momentum gained by “radical” “socialists”.
@4 Recursive Rabbit: That is standard political calculation in Congress. The head of the party will look at how many votes they need to change sides (Fetterman was going to vote for it anyways), who is vulnerable in the next election, who owes them favors and who they can give a cheap favor and probably pad the vote by one or two because Congresspeople are not real trustworthy. One of Pelosi’s reasons for success is that she was very good at counting out votes, figuring how many votes she could expect from Republicans that wouldn’t tell her directly and such.
What annoys me is that they did this but Schumer still said he is opposed to the compromise. So either the party went behind his back and he has lost control as leader or his is lying. Either way looks bad for him.
The lack of accountability will continue.
Trump pardons Rudy Giuliani and others involved in bid to overturn 2020 election
Tell me again how they’re not performative opposition.
People should stop saying the Dems are weak or stupid, because they’re not: they’re corrupt.
Big difference.
They think we’re stupid and will continue to vote for them despite this massive betrayal, which has already caused immense harm to innumerable federal employees and those who depend on federal services, and will literally kill tens of thousands due to massive increases in ACA rates that will render insurance unaffordable for many.
Every Dem who caved is a multimillionaire – most many times over – who got full pay while not working, and has better health care, probably, than anyone reading this.
None who caved is running for reelection in 2026 – meaning every incumbent is safe from the consequences of this betrayal – which was orchestrated, btw, at the top. (Durbin, the whip, was a caver).
The Dems were at their strongest after last week’s election, and Trump was weakest, with poll #s in the toilet. They squandered all their momentum less than a week after a progressive rout, because they’d rather lose than offend their corporate owners.
Please stop voting for centrist / corporatist Dems. Please stop voting Blue No Matter Who. We’ve done it for decades, and look where it’s brought us.
This is already happening.
No matter how bad you think health care is today, it will be worse in the future.
.1. Both the local mega-clinic and the regional medical center are in trouble, losing money. The mega-clinic was bought out by private equity and that didn’t solve anything. A lot of their key specialists including almost all their neurologists quit and went elsewhere.
.2. About ten years ago, the oncologists starting seeing a lot of patients coming in with advanced, hard to treat cancers.
The patients couldn’t afford medical care so they were waiting until they had to come in for checkups and diagnosis.
The more the cancer has spread, the harder it is to treat and the shorter their life spans.
I’ve seen this twice this summer alone in people I know well.
One guy was diagnosed with late stage 4 gastric cancer. Two weeks later he was dead.
About the same time, another person diagnosed with…a late stage 4 aggressive and widespread form of cancer. Dead a few weeks later by assisted suicide.
A lot of people are just going to stop buying health insurance because they can’t afford it. They will then put off a lot of medical care because…they don’t have insurance and can’t afford it.
Most of the time this works.
Some of the time it fails catastrophically.
We’ve been having falling lifespans in the USA for a long time now. It will probably keep on going down.
A lot more than just them need to go. It’s so fucking obvious that leadership wanted to cave and were more upset about their own flight inconveniences than anyone on food stamps and so votes were shuttled to ones that aren’t up for re-election next year. They had widespread support and people were actually excited for them for once only to just throw everything in the toilet as usual. What the fuck is even the point of this party if they’re not coherent in standing up to this blatantly corrupt and fascistic administration?
If Chuck Shumer is lying, he needs to go.
If Chuck Shumer is sincere but inefficient, he needs to go.
There is one complex strategic game the Democrats could be playing. They passed this in the Senate to put pressure on the Republicans to open the House even though this won’t pass in the House. That would require some good coordination between the Senate and House Democratic leadership. That seems really unlikely but is remotely possible.
My email to my Representative and Senators:
“Why should I vote for any Democrat if the party folds when it is looking like they just might win? Why should we ever believe you when you claim to be working for our benefit? Over and over and over again the party sells the people out. Stand up for affordable healthcare, affordable education, human rights, and so on. Show a spine! 2026 and 2028 were looking like there might be some change – and then you people go and fold, kowtowing to the orange monster. If you keep backing down and whimpering like this there is no way that the Democrats will win in 2026 or 2028 because no one will trust you to do what you said you would do. (Also, you should be posting the bills you will champion once you have some power in Congress again….but instead of detailed planning that demonstrates you have actually been thinking about how to get us out of this mess we are getting meaningless platitudes about “building a resistance” alternated with whimpering like a beaten dog. We need politicians who will fight fascism, not ‘compromise’ with the fascists!)”
Schumer sure do talk real purdy. But you can be sure it is nothing, but talk. He gave them their head to do the cave and either he is behind it or he completely incompetent. None of these people are up for re-election in 2026. This was orcastrated from the top.
These eight cockroaches are expending all their energy pushing this nation down the DEATH SPIRAL as fast as they can. I have found no power on earth that will stop this endless disaster.
Where does this 26% increase number come from?
AFAICT, the actual heath care insurance cost is going to go up a lot more than 26%
This source, KFF (formerly Kaiser Family Foundation) has it at an average of 100% for the average ACA member.
What the GOP is doing here is killing the Affordable Health Care Plan by just not funding it.
@10 raven correctly wrote: A lot of people are just going to stop buying health insurance because they can’t afford it. They will then put off a lot of medical care because…they don’t have insurance and can’t afford it. . . . We’ve been having falling lifespans in the USA for a long time now. It will probably keep on going down.
I reply: This is EXACTLY what the magat plutocrats want. For decades, their mantra to those who are not at least millionaires is: if you get sick, just die, and DIE SOON.
Forget about the old phrase used by repugs against the ACA, that photo of the 8 cockroaches should be captioned in all caps:
THE REAL DEATH PANEL.
People starve or we lose healthcare. (sigh) I know 2 disabled people who can’t work . They rely on food stamps . I’m not in a position to help. This situation makes me sick !
While we are watching the USA destroy itself in Real Time, here is another data point and example.
.1. Trump and the GOP are now proposing 50 year mortgages.
The current longest mortgages are 30 year mortgages.
.2. There are a huge number of things wrong with this idea.
.3. Almost nobody who takes out a 50 year mortgage will ever actually own their house.
“The average (median) age of a first-time homebuyer in America is 40 years old, a record high reached in 2025”
How many people are going to be paying on their mortgage at age 90, 40 + 50 = 90?
.4. With all the known problems of a 50 year mortgage, this is looking a lot like the Subprime Loan Disaster of the Bush administration.
Buyers desperate and clueless enough to get these mortgages will likely be subprime borrowers and there will be a high default rate.
Life is rapidly getting much harder for the average citizen in the USA.
Housing is very unaffordable.
Cars are at a record for unaffordable.
College educations are at a record for unaffordable.
The health care system is rapidly becoming unaffordable.
With that sort of trend, we are rapidly becoming…poorer in real terms.
@21 Raven is correct. Also, I saw a comparison of 30yr mortgage at 3% vs 50yr mortgage at 7%. The total cost over the life of the loan went from ~$500,000 to ~$1,000,000!
And, the tRUMP $2000 ‘gift’ is a huge fraud. It is a ‘shiny diversion’ and pittance compared to the increase in cost of healthcare, food and everything else. And, it will be considered income and TAXED, WTF!
Just more of the magats pushing us down the DEATH SPIRAL!
Xposted from Bluesky:
If we need a way to spin this cave-in, here’s one possible angle: Democrats were holding out for a compromise that would fund pre-existing programs that met real basic needs of ordinary people. And Republicans showed they’d rather shut down the whole Government than do anything so basic and decent.
So why do Republicans consider it so important to shaft ordinary Americans out of benefits that everyone knows are good and necessary and would in fact be appreciated? What does that say about Republicans’ character, values and priorities?
@23 Faceless Bluesky Drone
I don’t buy it. Here’s a more likely version of events:
Republicans and Democrats both chose to prolong the government shutdown for political gain — Democrats having demonstrated that gain on Tuesday, their corporate handlers then told them to wrap this up and they complied, because, before anything else, Democrats are servants of corporate America.
This was all performative opposition for political gain. Democrats are so eager to move on that they don’t realize they’ve flushed that gain down the toilet and that blame for the shutdown will rightly be placed on them.
I knew I recognized one of those names… Dick Durbin showed up on Respectful Insolence fifteen years ago as the person who had proposed a bill to ‘modernize’ the FDA which was a lot more friendly to the ‘dietary supplement’ industry than a similar bill John McCain had already proposed.
So, proposing a ‘compromise’ that’s basically caving to moneyed interests and selling out the public in the process is not a new thing for him.
Oh go to bed, beholder…how does a conspiracy to fake a standoff benefit anyone more than Democrats simply caving to Republicans at the start of the process? Your “corporate uniparty” shtick is just plain old.
Oh, and I’m not “facelsss” on Bluesky — my name there is Comrade Obvious, and my pic is my face.
Keep in mind that that 26% goes straight from your pocket into the coffers of insurance companies, because of the fucked up way health care is managed in this country…
Additionally, at least another 15% of medical office & hospital costs go to the administrative overhead of complying with/finagling complex/vague/inconsistent/changing insurance corporation requirements.
I don’t have an ACA exchange plan, but I nevertheless got notified last week that my insurance premiums and deductibles are going way up next year. I’m looking at roughly $15,000 just for my insurance, assuming I don’t need it for any serious, unexpected illnesses or injuries (it’ll be about double that if I need to use it). That’s on top of any costs for actual healthcare, and even after I hit the out-of-pocket maximum for the year I’ll still have to pay 20% of my healthcare costs.
This is the best health insurance I could get. It, not to put too fine a point on it, sucks. There are tons of things it doesn’t cover, tons of doctors and hospitals I can’t go to (unless I want to pay completely out of pocket for them), and it’s an ever-shifting list that I can barely keep track of. These Democrats just made all that worse. Republicans, obviously, did even more but I don’t expect the American Nazi Party to give a damn about helping anyone but themselves. I guess I shouldn’t expect Dems to do more either, but still, damn them all.
“Damn them all?” Including the ones who DIDN’T cave? The ones who just flipped two more governor’s seats? Mamdani?
I mean I get it, but it is not to be forgotten that, just potentially, a few Republicans could also vote for non evil too but haven’t and never will. It’s not JUST these 8 to blame.
@29 Raging Bee
Which ones are those? The Republicans?
Those two were recruited from the class of CIA Democrats. They don’t represent the interests of ordinary people — they are a front for the military-intelligence apparatus.
That remains to be seen. Right now we know he’s been careful post-primary to reassure Wall Street and other wealthy American oligarchs that they will do just fine with him as mayor. If that is indicative of his plans, prepare for unending disappointment.
But if you think it’s fine for Democrats to roll over and accept fascism because they have Mamdani, that’s still a recipe for a failed party that will only diminish in future elections.
No. Context is your friend. The topic, and that to which you ostensibly responded.
“I guess I shouldn’t expect Dems to do more either, but still, damn them all.” is rather specific.
In fact, is very stupid given the OP.
There are photos, even!
“From top left: Democratic Sens. Dick Durbin, Jacky Rosen, John Fetterman and Catherine Cortez Masto. From bottom left: Democratic Sens. Jeanne Shaheen, Maggie Hassan and Tim Kaine, with independent Sen. Angus King.”
So, clearly, they (the damnable) are restricted to Democrats, and cannot possibly include Republicans.
Additionally, your attempted equivocation between the party affiliation and the person themself is duly exposed. Either it’s the party, or it’s that subset of its elected representatives.
A clear inference is that either you are genuinely ignorant and cannot hold context, of you are being disingenuous. No real third possibility.
(Note I’m being gentle; the phrasing is that of exclusive-or ;)
hillaryrettig1 #9
Corrupt and complicit. They’re the team that always loses to the Harlem Globetrotters. They play their role and play it well.
beholder #31
He’s also reassured the NYPD. I don’t believe that necessarily means he’ll just become a business-as-usual corporate Democrat though. It could be he’s going on a charm offensive so he’ll get as little pushback as possible when he begins to implement his plans.
@28 vucodlak
I don’t expect the American Nazi Party to give a damn about helping anyone but themselves
It’s really unfair to call Trump and his GOP enablers “Nazis”. Nazis supposedly cared about other Nazis, but as you say, Trump doesn’t give a damn about his supporters. They’re just grist for his mill.
Walter,
A false claim. Demonstrably so. I did it some time ago.
Biden was President. Obama was president. So, not always loses. Duh.
Over the last 30 years, it’s been even between them, in terms of duration, in terms of presidencies.
So, please, know your bullshit is most evident; anything you infer from that falsehood is invalid.
John, I’m happy to see you’re keeping up with the pedantic asshole act as usual. You’ve perfected it.
And, honestly, Obama is your example? You mean the guy who caved on the issue of health care and gave the insurance companies everything they wanted? You’re telling me that doesn’t come off as controlled opposition? Well, I guess you are pretty dense.
And, if you’re point is the Democrats occasionally when elections, no shit. There are Democratic strongholds in this country so why wouldn’t they? That doesn’t mean they’re very different from Republicans particularly when it comes to corporate interests.
Me #37
I certainly butchered that sentence. That should be: And, if your point is that the Democrats occasionally win elections, no shit.
“And, honestly, Obama is your example?”
Well, yes.
First Term: January 20, 2009 – January 20, 2013
Elected in November 2008, defeating Republican nominee John McCain.
-Second Term: January 20, 2013 – January 20, 2017
Re-elected in November 2012, defeating Republican nominee Mitt Romney.
Literally, a counter-example to the claim that “They’re the team that always loses to the Harlem Globetrotters.”
I was quite explicit; over the last 3 decades. I already did this exercise, you know.
50/50, it turns out to be.
(So, which team is the Globetrotters? ;)
—
Also, relax about typoes and inadvertences; perhaps worry more about content and accuracy.
In breaking news!
Citizens of predatory capalist nation shocked at news their nation is controlled by predatory capitalists. Who’s to blame still under futile debate by a citizenry too busy squabbling over who sold their soul to whom to see who the whom is, and how big is their cup. Updates to this breaking story expected to trickle down.
In other news, corporation in same nation promises CEO a $1 trillion windfall if he can eliminate inequality. CEO has no known links to story at top of bulletin.
How about you relax about being hyper-literal and worry about having a normal conversation like a human being? You’d likely find you’d have fewer “injunctions” and a better experience overall when you’re not trying to find errors in someone’s posts that aren’t there.
Here’s a clue: I know Obama and Biden were presidents and that Democrats win elections. I don’t live under a rock. You completely missed the point I was making and made yourself look like an ass, again.
Oh, and again, feel free to you have your coveted last word, John-Boy. I’ve learned that trying to have a normal conversation with you is an exercise in futility.
So now the defeatist trolls are blithering about “CIA Democrats?” Like EVERYONE who EVER worked for the CIA is, by definition, a permanent deep-state mole and a major faction within our party?
And all this flailing rubbish seems to have been provoked by my proposed spin on recent events. Thinking I’ve made the Republicans that desperate to retake control of the narrative, makes my ego grow two sizes. [smug_emoji]
PS: I hate to say this (a little), but this time the hyper-literal pedantic quibbler is right. Thanks, John.
Worthless DNC types manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, film at 11. Way to squander (@9) the recent blueish tilt a-holes. That’s where I see Walter Solomon going with the Harlem Globetrotters with Dems as perennial stooges.
And yeah @37 Obama lost the plot with the ACA. The public option would have helped, though single payer preferable.
Also the Repugs were down for the count after the endless Iraq war and its toll and the subprime meltdown until they rebranded as the Tea Party and embraced birtherism.
Fetterman should find his true calling in the Republican party. He had his fleeting moment before he decayed into a garbage rotter.
Raging Bee @44
I say it’s a toss up. Yeah he took beholder to task in @32, but was a bit too uncharitable to Walter Solomon’s hyperbolic Globetrotters comparison. I got it. Kinda like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown or the scorpion stinging the frog because that’s in its nature. John was hyperliteral IMO and missed the overall point.
@ 6 Raging Bee : “Maybe these Democrats hate Mamdani so much they’re willing to undermine their whole party just to punish him and set back any momentum gained by “radical” “socialists”.”
Or maybe not? Maybe you could ask them or see if you can find what they said about why they ended the shutdown instead of just wondering and casting unsubstantiated aspersions?
@9 hillaryrettig1 :
Look what NOT voting blue got you – and the rest of our planet! You didn’t vote “blue no matter what” and it got you Trump – twice! Inflicting him on the rest of our pale blue dot with all the literally fatal and catastrophic and genocidal consequences that has already had and is still having and will have far into the future.
Voting blue “no matter who” OTOH, got you Biden, Obama & one Clinton as POTUS & several actually good SCOTUS Justices.
Citation needed. Your assertion of their motivation is just that – an assertion NOT a fact. Let’s see what they have to say before deciding what their own motives were for them shall we?
Via PBS Newshour :
Plus :
Also :
Plus you can read more of what they said here :
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/8-democrats-voted-with-republicans-on-a-shutdown-deal-heres-what-theyve-said-about-why
Are they wrong? Are they lying? If so, where is the evidence of that? Conspiracism is NOT a good thing here or anywhere really.
Nor really is the USoA’s crappy political system that should have been reformed centuries ago to make govt shutdowns impossible and scrap the EC, abolish gerrymandering, add preferential or run off voting to eliminate spoilers, etc. That’s what needed to have happened long ago.
@24. Dishonest Trump supporting tankie troll & liar :
No, that would be your bullshit conspiracist dishonest crap. Whatever makes you think your ravings / deliberate disinfo here are “more likely” versus less and what if any supporting evidence do you have?
What a non-surprise. You blame the wrong party yet again – the Republican and control Congress, Trump was using the shutdown and the Greens (remember them and how you voted & argued for them – and de facto thereby for Trump. I’ll never forget that or stop reminding you of it) enabled the Repugs to do that by getting them in power by third party spoiler voting and arguing like you did pre-election.
Also if the Democrats are “servants” of corporate America – whatever that specifically practically means – what then are the Repugliklans and esp the Trumpists?
I might have pointed out once or twice before here that due to your crappy political system which badly needs reform, those in the USoA have TWO CHOICES ONLY Pick the least bad and work on them to make them less bad and reform your abominable system to change it FFS!
No. The shutdown is on the party in power and POTUS in power.* They have all the numbers and all the power. Maths and politics comprendez vous?** Trump and the Repugs are to blame and deserve all the blame for that and everything they do.
The party that does NOT have the numbers or power isn’t responsible for the actions of those who do.
Our troll’s disingenuous, simplistic, conspiracist focus on blaming absolutely everything on the Democratic party – the non-fascist one out of the 2 options – and their allergy to blaming the Repugs and Trump for pretty much anything*** is, once again duly noted.
Blaming the Dems here BTW plays into Trump and the Repugs hands. Lets not do that okay?
.* Trump is now responsible for the two longest government shutdowns in USA history.
.** Clearly too many people do not seem to understand maths and politics and what having more Congress reps means. Dunno why it is that hard for them. More education and critical thinking needed clearly.
For starters, the party with more elected reps forms what is called the government which passes legislation, controls economic and foreign policies, controls the military, etc .. The person who has the most number of votes becomes President or PM or other title but is in charge. The UsoA one once famously had a sign saying the buck stopped with him – which was not a reference to male deer. In a rational system – so NOT the United States of America – govts can fall and their leaders be changed at any time when situations call for it.
.*** Has anyone ever seen our bad faith Trump aiding troll “beholder” actually criticising and blaming Trump and the Repugs for anything here? Bit of a tell ain’t it?
Hemidactylus, you too?
Got it. For you, he fucked up when he legislated for the Affordable Care Act (ACA), commonly called “Obamacare”, meaning he lost the plot.
Funny thing is, because it was legislated and not done via executive order, it still remains despite the best efforts of the Republicans. That matters.
Anyway, some of us remember, e.g. https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/aug/13/back-future-trumps-history-promising-health-plan-n/
(Two weeks!)
StevoR @47
Maybe there is some legit Dem rage at scum like Fetterman and other DINOs who cave so easily to fascists?
I despise the DNC. Remember what was learned from the Russian hack how Bernie was treated? I smelled the rot well before that. Yet I voted for Hillary and Kamala. I truly despised Senator from MBNA Biden and held my nose. Dude was from a credit card state. Superpredator crime bill and bankruptcy bill. Yeah fuck that guy. Yet I voted for him.
Mamdani, AOC, and others are a breath of fresh air from the stench requiring a clothespin on the nose. If it wasn’t for wanting to defeat Trump I don’t know if I would have voted in 2016. Hillary versus Jeb. Are you kidding me?
@38. Walter Solomon : ” if your point is that the Democrats occasionally win elections, no shit.”
Now next key question is when do Democrats win elections? When more people vote for them than against them. IOW when they get voters from outside their base and appeal to more people who won’t all share progressive ideas or support exactly the things that are requiring of fucking purity tests. When they reach outside of the usual voters to those who might have previously voted against them and to swinging voters and undecided voters and new voters.
IOW, when they compromise and reach across the aisle and do things that upset those who insist on ideological purity and insist on a fucking unicorn that cannot win if it is chosen because it puts off those in the middle. You win elections from the centre and usually on economic and not, say, foreign policy grounds. We (myself included) may not like this reality but it doesn’t stop it being the reality.
Democrats only win elections when people DO vote blue no matter who.
Becoz when you do NOT vote blue no matter who the Repugs and Trump win. Demonstrable fact twice proven. No shit.
Basic political sense that the Pu(trid)rity disunity mob cannot seem to grasp for some reason and when they insist on blaming the wrong people for the wrong reasons and on tactics that wouldn’t work then they become the problem. Disunity is famously political death and insisting on a candidate who matches your own personal exact beliefs at the expense of everything else and having them do exactly what you and only you or your minority fringe of people want is political death. You get a certain candidate or nominee chosen and that’s who you have and if you don’t support them they won’t win and the other party with policies and views that are far worse -eg outright fascist – will win instead.
If you want the better of the two parties to win in the USA you have to unify behind and support the nominee even if you are not a big fan of them because the alternative is worse and gets you far less of what you want and less chance to influence them into the directions paths that you’d prefer. You don’t get your ideal unicorns and they likely won’t win if you do get something close to one.
(Applies esp for the USA ‘s system which is really shit.)
Explaining it as if to child becoz seems I have to for some here. (Assuming good faith which in at least one case cannot be assumed but anyhow.)
What part of this is hard to understand? I really do not know how this isn’t crystal fucking clear.
So. Care to answer that question and explain what about the above you don’t get here dishonest troll beholder and others in their Pu(trid)rity disunity camp or adjacent to it who condemn the Democratic party for doing that they need to do to get power without which – like now -they are impotent and cannot actually do very much?
Nothing can be accomplished in this context when you aren’t in govt and do not have the numbers or enough votes to accomplish it.
“I despise the DNC.” & “Mamdani, AOC, and others are a breath of fresh air”
Well, nobody would accuse you of the fallacy of composition; thing is, you flirt with its converse: the fallacy of division. And you assert both.
(So, I shan’t accuse you of coherence)
@49. Hemidactylus : “Maybe there is some legit Dem rage at scum like Fetterman and other DINOs who cave so easily to fascists?”
Longest. Shutdwn. Ever.
So, did they really cave that easily?
Maybe there is legitmate cause for rage but what good will it do and where and at who should it be directed?
John Morales @51
What are you even on about? Try being explicit what you are saying because an Aussie (or two here) lecturing me how to feel about the shithole Democratic Party is quite rich I must say. I live it on this side of the world. The DNC is garbage. Biden was behind the shitty crime bill and bankruptcy bill. If it wasn’t for Trump I would have passed on voting for him. Why don’t you deal with that?
That’s but one of the aspects, StevoR. The equivocation over who ‘they’ refers to.
The main slop, not the lack of logic, though both lead to claims such as “I despise the DNC” and “Mamdani, AOC, and others are a breath of fresh air.”
Lazy and incoherent thinking.
(The party is deprecated unconditionally, so it always amuses me when people talk about being ‘primaried’, because that’s done by the party, no?)
“Try being explicit what you are saying because an Aussie (or two here) lecturing me how to feel about the shithole Democratic Party is quite rich I must say.”
Argument to the person.
“I live it on this side of the world. The DNC is garbage.”
Fine. So, don’t vote for them. They are like the Harlem Globetrotters’s opposite.
“Biden was behind the shitty crime bill and bankruptcy bill.”
But he was elected. That’s the thing.
Equal time in power, roughly, for at least 60 years.
(So, which team is useless, again?)
“If it wasn’t for Trump I would have passed on voting for him. Why don’t you deal with that?”
I’m trying, but you know, equine hydration and that.
(Some people can’t be helped, no matter how much one tries)
So John Morales feigns saying stuff when presented with actual problems with the history of Democrats like Biden’s history. Whatever. Maybe try defending Fetterman the should be Republican. Can’t do that either. Empty BS from a word chopper.
Again: “I was quite explicit; over the last 3 decades. I already did this exercise, you know.
50/50, it turns out to be.”
Biden was elected.
See, this entire digression was correcting a palpable falsehood (“They’re the team that always loses to the Harlem Globetrotters.”), not so much about between your oscillation and equivocation regarding the party and its constituents.
Pearls before swine.
So this is what I find hilarious. I went from being impressed by some recent Democratic electoral gains especially by the verboten democratic socialist Mamdani and then disgusted by establishment Senate Democrats reverting to type caving to fascists and then I get some obnoxious word chopper incapable of persuasive rhetoric from the other side of the world implicitly insulting me with glee as if that is nothing but a sad spectacle. Glad he thinks himself more capable than he actually is. Legend in his own mind.
PS https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2022/08/17/fetterman-made-voltaires-prayer-o-lord-make-my-enemies-ridiculous/
“Glad he thinks himself more capable than he actually is. Legend in his own mind.”
I’m capable of not being wrong by actually checking facts. Hardly legendary, except for some.
Here, for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States
(I’m not making my claims up, you know. Do your own check, if you doubt me)
@59 John Morales
You are totally clueless and addled by who knows what. That was posted on…checks notes… 17 August 2022.
Nothing changes in over 3 years. Of course you can’t contextualize why you even linked this after so much has changed in Fetterman’s arc. Sad case you are dude.
Yes. Before he was on the nose. I know. :)
“Of course you can’t contextualize why you even linked this after so much has changed in Fetterman’s arc.”
He was treated rather sympathetically; I linked *because/ so much has changed in Fetterman’s arc.
(Also, he was +1 Democrats)
“Sad case you are dude.”
Well, at least I’m not you. :)
@ Hemidactylus : I don’t intend to insult you and I hope you aren’t referring to me as doing so in your #58 & #53. You have my respect here – the toxic shoe-scrapings-off of a disingenuous troll “beholder”, OTOH, very much does NOT.
If you feel resentment at being lectured to by a foreigner imagine how frustrating it is to have the USoA dictate my nation’s foreign policy and drag us into repeated needless wars – Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and see how much massive political and cultural influence the USoA has over us here in Oz.
I’m sure we’re not the only ones to resent the United States of America’s power over our countries and their paths and the planet generally – when your country claims to be the “Leader of the free world” then I think a push back is reasonable. Also, I don’t just see the USoA’s political system as crappy. I hate the British Monarchy which has symbolic power over us – 1975 and Whitlam’s dismissal* frex and the archaism and absurdity of that & having a supposed head of state who barracks against us in the cricket disgusts me.
I don’t claim Australia’s system is perfect and I hate the brutal genocidal kakistocracy of Russia and Dictator Xi’s tyranny of China and their systems among others too.
When I see flaws in political systems anywhere, I am going to say so and suggest improvements because well, I hope it helps and don’t see any point or good served in NOT doing so.
I also agree with you that Mamdani is a breath of fresh air and think he and the squad incl Tlaib, Omar, AOC, etc represents the best of the Democratic party and more power to them please.
See : https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-11/the-dismissal-50th-anniversary-photo/105958494
Note that none of these eight are up for reelection this cycle; that makes them even more chickenshit and feckless.
And this fact, despite what Schumer says publicly, makes me suspect that he and the other leaders (Durbin, the #2, is among the eight) orchestrated this move, ending the shutdown without placing anyone at risk of being tossed out because of it.
Here’s someone else’s comment on Bluesky that kinda reinforces StevoR’s and my points:
Schumer led Senate Democrats in fighting Trump over healthcare, period.
If you think Senate leaders can control members of their caucus, you don’t know much about the Senate. And before you say “McConnell,” remember why we still have the ACA when Trump and McConnell wanted it gone.
StevoR #50
They win when they demonstrate they have a backbone and stick to their principles. Trying to appeal to everyone and playing nice isn’t how elections are won. You can ask Kamala about that. She was trying to appeal to everyone too by palling around with Lynn Cheney.
Oh, and StevoR, I’ve voted blue no matter who since I was 18. I’m allowed to call the Dems out on their fuck-ups and will continue to do so.
So save the school marm civics lessons for the usual “trolls” you attack so frequently it has likely become a Pavlovian response for you once you spot their names.
Same, Walter.
For Democrats in general, I’m tired of being told we can’t have nice things and being scolded when I dare to ask for anything.
StevoR #63
Maybe you should start taking the politicians in your country to task for caving to American interests like we’re taking Democrats to task for caving to Republicans.
Whatever you do, stop assuming every person who criticizes the Democrats is equivocating between the two parties. We realize one side is fascist. That doesn’t mean the other side is above criticism.
Absolutely. But push back on the right people. The Democratic Party isn’t above criticism and doesn’t need to be defended. They have enough resources to defend themselves.
I appreciate you taking the double-hater trolls to task but trying to silence frustrated and largely powerless US voters in the name of defending the Democrats isn’t the right way to do things.
Recursive Rabbit #68
I feel your pain.
It’s frustrating watching this from so close but without any ability to influence it, though here in Canada we are getting badly hurt by it. I think the problem with the basketball analogy is that basketball games have a set length and score and one team comes out on top. In US politics the winning team is the wealthy plutocrat class, and the time frame is indefinite, and they aren’t the ones in the spotlight (with notable exceptions) . The politics is performative, and sure, it’s less punitive toward the average American when the blue team is in power, but blue being in power over red doesn’t actually make a real shift away from inequality. There has been an obvious “ratchet” effect in my lifetime – each time reds get elected the USA goes a little farther toward plutocracy. When blues get elected it creates a stop, hold under tension for a bit, but not reversing. Then reds shift it a bit more….
It looks like the ratchet strap is likely to break soon though under the tension. I’m very worried about what kind of catastrophic failure that is.
I went from being impressed by some recent Democratic electoral gains especially by the verboten democratic socialist Mamdani and then disgusted by establishment Senate Democrats reverting to type caving to fascists…
You “went?” Or you were LED? Democrats are having emotional reactions to this latest turn of events, and it’s pretty obvious, both on this thread and on Bluesky, that Republicans are jumping into the breach to do what they always do: spinning and manipulating everyone’s emotions to keep their opponents divided against each other. And as the quote above admits, it’s working. This is psychological warfare, and we all need to be aware of it, whether or not we agree with this recent “deal.”
Even if this is a total loss, it’s not the worst loss Democrats have had to come back from. We need to come to our senses and get to work picking our next battle, hopefully before Republicans pick it for us.
This is a good point.
There was a battle and the Democrats lost.
I was so appalled that I couldn’t even think of anything to say about it.
At the least, they could have gone another week and find out if the US Supreme Court was also going to let 42 million Americans starve, most of which are old people and children.
The Democrats didn’t have that many cards to play though.
There were those 42 million hostages, the 42 million Food Stamp recipients who the GOP were going to starve. Plus the jet plane transport system, which was failing. Laid off Federal workers were also hostages.
The GOP also spent a huge amount of their political capital alienating vast segments of our society, including all those ACA people, 80% of which live in Red States because the ACA substitutes for Medicaid expansion.
The war isn’t over by any means.
Never give up.
@72 Raging Bee
Republicans are well known for spinning to save face, that’s true, but you’re no better. Your first instinct when confronted with this truth was to spin a total fabrication to make your team look good.
You won’t get very far blaming the base for believing their lying eyes.
Even more people are getting sick and tired of Democrat political theater. Even more people aren’t being cowed into voting for them next time. The traditional, abusive methods of control over a battered electorate are failing. This is a good thing.
Here’s another Bluesky comment I thought I’d pass on, at least as something else to consider:
Two things can be true, one of which Barro [in an NYT article cited] doesn’t grapple with: total victory wasn’t possible for Dems, and also Schumer/Dems did an absolutely TERRIBLE job messaging to voters what they did get and why they were taking it, which might have softened the landing. And that shows poor leadership.
Hit a nerve, did I, beholder? What did I say that was “fabrication?”
(Also, saying “Democrat” instead of “Democratic” is something Republicans habitually do.)
@ Hemidactylus : “Nothing changes in over 3 years. Of course you can’t contextualize why you even linked this after so much has changed in Fetterman’s arc.”
The fact that the alternative to Fetterman last election was a repug and Dr Oz at that has NOT changed and cannot change tho..
Raging Bee @76: That beholder is effectively a Republican shill is long-established. I don’t know why anyone chooses to engage with them apart from the occasional fact-check.
@74. The Trumpist troll pretending to be a progressive here is getting ever more blatant about actually as well as de facto being a Trump supporter isn’t it?
Come on “beholder” be honest you really are a Trump cultists making a very thin pretense at progressivism aren’t you?
Oh and surprise me and actually answer these questions – you won’t I bet – what is the alternative to the Democratic party again and are you really so willfully deluded that you think there will be actual, proper elections ever again?
@78. Rob Grigjanis : There certainly have been a lot of tells for a very long time with the bad faith troll “beholder” here. I don’t think they are fooling many of us. I hope not. I think that troll should not be welcome here.
[meta]
‘I think that troll should not be welcome here.’
That’s up to PZ, and I know he dislikes these types of appeals.
He knows; he keeps up. He’s God, here. Host, we the guests.
I myself think you’ve kinda conflating beholder with ‘The Vicar’, who truly was all that; accelerationist ostensibly, but would-be 5th columnist as it was.
And when it comes to IT-adjacent stuff, beholder has made some reasonable claims. FWTW.
—
Also, you know the saying about over-egging? Well, that’s you right now.
A rather more optimistic take:
I disagree with the subject line for this thread. The US gets to stay at the top of the list of most expensive health care. As “they” say – “that’s not nothin’!”
The drop in life expectancy in the US during Covid in the graphs on the page above was intriguing. It’s almost as if the country’s leaders didn’t care about their people at that point. You should feel fortunate that isn’t the current case – Oh! Sorry.
Ezra Klein had a different take on this.
“Trump’s willingness to hurt people exceeds {Democrats} willingness to see people get hurt.”
and
“The political logic of the shutdown fight was inverted: If Democrats got the tax credits extended — if they “won” — they would be solving a huge electoral problem for Republicans. If Republicans successfully allowed the tax credits to expire — if they “won” — they would be handing Democrats a cudgel with which to beat them in the elections.”
Before condemning Klein, note that he said he would have held out. But the caving may not be all bad.
@81. John Morales :
I know PZ’s blog and his rules and fair enough. We’re allowed our own opinions and to state them and to hold others accountable at least a bit here though.
Both are part of a very toxic damaging group that has done the entire world incalculable harm by helping to get Trump – & shadow POTUS Miller – inflicted on us all as leader of the world’s largest and most influential superpower. A superpower that has now turned Fascist and gone very much rogue. I don’t think that can really be over-egged or under-estimated personally.
Vicar at least has had the decency to stick the flounce and I do know they were separate trolls and BothSiderist / Only-Unicorn-Will-Do adherents. I criticised and tried to hold both to account separately and as a collective political sub-cult here. Past tense in Vicars case, current tense in “beholders.”
@78. Rob Grigjanis : “I don’t know why anyone chooses to engage with them apart from the occasional fact-check.”
For the sake of any lurkers who may not know the disingenuous troll’s record and nature and to NOT allow lies and disinfo and misrepresentations of reality to stand. I also want to make sure there are at least some consequences for those that created the current Trump(Miller) fascist dictatorship. There’s always the possibility however slight that eventually some of what I’m saying might make the troll think and actually face the reality of what they did & rethink their words and actions too. After all, I know one example of where that happened very well.
@69. Walter Solomon :
Whatever makes you think I don’t do that already? I do. For all the use it is..
I have never said nor do I believe that any side in politics – here or USA is “above criticism” or shouldn’t be criticised when called for. I have criticised Biden myself and think he should’ve stepped aside much earlier -halfway through his term. I’m happy for the Democratic party to be called out on what they’ve done wrong – BUT let’s just NOT ignore the reality that the opposition party is many times worse and let’s not undermine the chances of the better rather than the worst party and candidate becoming POTUS and controlling Congress.
Except that when people and, yes, parties are lied about then I do think the truth should be told and lies – including lies of omission and ignoring context – set right. The Democratic party will take of itself but that’s separate to pointing out reality here on this blog and yes, again, NEVER have I said that they are “above criticism” and shouldn’t be criticised at all – that’s a strawman.
As is this :
Never said it was and NOT what I am doing.
You know what party and POTUS is trying to silence voters and protesters and the USoA People here right? The Repugs & Trump as they impose their now dictatorship upon you.
@68. Recursive Rabbit : ” Same, Walter. For Democrats in general, I’m tired of being told we can’t have nice things and being scolded when I dare to ask for anything.”
Again, NOT what I am saying. Saying you’re not going to get a Unicorn of a candidate that exactly and completely agrees with and does everything you want is NOT the same as telling you that you can’t have nice things.
Kamala as POTUS would’ve delivered stacks of nice things FWIW.
Ditto a Democratic party controlled Congress. Not everything, okay, and maybe not as good as our ideal wishes, sure, but certainly more and better things than Trump /Miller & the Repugs.
Nor am I “scolding you” for daring to ask for anything. Ask away!
Thinking of asking for things, please could you not put words in my mouth that I didn’t say and do not represent my actual views? Is that too much for me to ask?
Also, if you think I find it enjoyable to have to put up with and correct the crap spewed by our bad faith troll & other BothSiderists & Unicorn-only-Will-Do commenters, well, no I don’t. I find that painful – but necessary.
[meta]
StevoR, did you but pay attention, you’d not appear so clueless.
“We’re allowed our own opinions and to state them and to hold others accountable at least a bit here though.”
vs.
“Also, you know the saying about over-egging? Well, that’s you right now”.
(Again — it’s not about your egging the pudding, but about your over-egging it)
Good grief! You are the over-egger, which you should have picked up when I wrote “that’s you right now”. Not the superpower that you claim “has now turned Fascist and gone very much rogue”.
You. Not it. You. An entirely separate thing, which I did not address — your actions here and your recalcitrance right now.
(It’s pretty feeble to be unable to determine the subject of a sentence and so offer a non sequitur in retort)
@ ^ John Morales : Which actions and what “recalcitrance”” of mine are you referring to specifically?
Your pestiferation of beholder, regardless of context or occasion, StevoR. Since you asked.
Trust me, I know what it’s like to be pointlessly and obsessively pestered, regardless of context or claim.
Fazed me about as much as you faze beholder, annoys others because of its redundant repetitive otiosity and clutter of comment threads. Such as now.
Anyway, enough clarification.
Up to you whether you continue, just thought I’d point out how it seems to me.
@ ^ John Morales : Fair enough, thanks. See my explanation for why I treat them that way in my #85 above.
No worries, StevoR. I too hate snipers and drive-byes.
—
Re the topic, the shutdown might have accomplished nothing in terms of legislative concessions, but the resulting recent election results resulted in gains.
(Postpones the next reckoning until the end of January, as I understand it — which is not quite as long as the shutdown was)
[oops. not quite twice as long, actually 32 days more. Should have checked first]