Here’s a blocked comment from someone who definitely needs to watch this video.
I didn’t agree with Charlie’s views on guns, MAGA, abortion, religion and probably some others… But I never heard the guy say an objectionable thing. He was wrong about plenty, but he was right about plenty too.
On the points we disagreed, he had a fairly well reasoned argument – even if it was wrong. Never heard him calling anyone names. He listened patiently and replied clearly and calmly.
Nope. Not one objectionable thing.
Tethyssays
The Kimmel thread requires a flush to remove a troll infestation.
Yay, a new RW video! I’ve also been enjoying the videos of knittingcultlady on YouTube.
She is an expert on cult psychology and has years of direct experience in addition to degrees. She also knits.
Erika Kirk is doing a perfect rendition of the skinny white lady who upholds the cult by putting a pretty face on their organization. Melania, Ghislane Maxwell and the ditzy women who acts as dumpsters press secretary also qualify.
That reminds me of someone I saw earlier this week.Someone was trying to explain that Kirk’s comments about not trusting a pilot were not racist if taken in context. But the context they provided was just more racism and dishonesty.
Some people just have big mental filters that won’t let them recognize the implications of things people say, if they’re framed in “reasonable” language.
Jeansays
I was going to post on the previous thread but it is polluted by trolls as mentioned above. But this is still relevant here.
Kirk is irrelevant. What is happening is the complete takeover of the US media by Trump and his minions. Kirk is just the latest excuse. I just saw something from Rachel Cohen (a lawyer who resigned from a firm that made a deal with Trump) that one of the lawyer firm working on the merger of Nexstar and Tegna was one of the firms that made a deal with Trump. Nexstar is the media group that owns many ABC affiliates that pressured ABC to remove Kimmel by saying they wouldn’t broadcast the show.
So what you have is a company that wants to have a merger approved using Trump tainted lawyers to do Trump approved censorship to get that merger done. Kirk is just an excuse. And this is just one example that we can see of the corruption that is going on in the media industry. Trump is taking over the industry and whatever isn’t actually taken over will just toe the line to stay on his good side. And you also have the tech industry with Intel having 10% being taken by the government and NVIDIA giving a percentage of the profits for selling chips to China.
The US isn’t on the way to autocracy, it’s already there. And anyone hoping to change that in the midterm election is deluded. There won’t be free and fair elections for the midterm or for the foreseeable future. Oh, there will be election but they definitely won’t be free and fair.
The response to Kirk’s murder is just a distraction and a better excuse than what they could have come up with otherwise. It helps speed up what comes next. The US is already in the camp of Russia, Hungary, Turkey, … but with so much more resources and power that the entire world will suffer (and being in Canada, we will soon see the effects ourselves in a much more negative way than tariffs).
cheerfulcharliesays
Empathy, strangely enough, is a word coined only in the 20th century. See Google for more. However, the Bible repeatedly claims God is just, compassionate, and merciful. And God in the Bible repeatedly commands us to be likewise. So Kirk did not know what he was babbling about, as usual. Lots of dumbass theist have seemingly been taking up the claim Jesus “wasn’t woke”.
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous.
1 Peter 3:8
“Sympathy…is that by which we enter into the situation of another person, and by changing places in fancy with the sufferer, conceive ourselves enduring all the same torments.”
The Charlie Kirk eulogies make me think of that old snark “I will always love the false impression I had of you.”
The things people claim he represented don’t sound bad in themselves. It’s just when you try to match them with his words and actions, that the disconnect becomes clear. He was an extremist and hate-monger. And the people who defend him accuse you of disrespect when you confront them with his actual words.
He worked to suppress free speech (of academics). Even the claim that he supported “spirited discourse” rests on his intentional targeting and verbal bullying of naive college students who were unprepared for debate. This is literally the kind of indoctrination that the right accuses professors of carrying out in their classrooms.
“Debate me” is also an old trope of creationists. Debate is rarely the way to get to the heart of a dispute and only meaningful between parties of equal skill and preparation, something Kirk made sure was not the case.
I missed his significance, since I don’t pay attention to the far right. I was vaguely aware of his existence (mostly after looking up an interview he did with Stephen Miller in 2023 about mass deportation).
In retrospect, it’s clear there was an emotional cult around him and the rightwing is not only using his death as a cudgel but is also genuinely distraught the way people are when they lose a charismatic leader. It took almost a week for this to sink in while I wondered why it was suddenly all Charlie Kirk all the time (meanwhile, the government was overthrown by youth in Nepal, and the strongest evidence was found so far of possible life on Mars!).
That doesn’t excuse him or even merit my sympathy. It does help explain why they are unusually unhinged right now even by their own standards. I acknowledge that some people and not only his family will genuinely mourn him. That’s actually another reason not to demand it from me. Plenty of mourners already.
Pierce R. Butlersays
cheerfulcharlie @ # 6: Empathy, strangely enough, is a word coined only in the 20th century.
In English translation. Germans, I gather from a reliable source citing another reliable source, had it since 1857.
Reginald Selkirksays
@11
German has another word that was relevant in a discussion of Charlie Kirk: Backpfeifengesicht
beholdersays
The Charlie Kirk bubble is real. Thank whoever handles his brand, I suppose. His fans see one side of him and his “objectionable” statements are completely off their radar. Not much different than the Creationism bubble or the Democrat bubble in that regard. People doing their own research have to be willing to put aside some deep-rooted cognitive biases and actively seek out information they don’t like to hear or aren’t allowed to hear if they even stand a chance of escaping those bubbles.
beholdersays
@5 Jean
There won’t be free and fair elections for the midterm or for the foreseeable future. Oh, there will be election but they definitely won’t be free and fair.
There haven’t been free or fair elections since long before I was born. Glad to hear you’re awake and aware that there is a problem.
John Moralessays
beholder, your claim “There haven’t been free or fair elections since long before I was born. Glad to hear you’re awake and aware that there is a problem.” does not really address the issue at hand.
In your opinion; the actual sentiment you quoted is expressing that, considering the existing baseline since you were born and what we were accustomed to before Trump took over the USA, for the midterm or for the foreseeable future that degree of ‘free and fair’ will not apply.
It’s a relative, not an absolute claim, and it’s to the effect that this Trump administration has no qualms about being openly pressured and unfair.
(Shame he got elected, eh? It makes everything ever so much worse)
I work with a guy who’s a Republican, but not a maga type. He came in and was glad that people got fired for criticizing kirk. I tried to explain that the First amendment covers speech, even when someone speaks ill of another person. He didn’t understand that and really didn’t understand how the amendment works. It’s the same with the three branches of government and how they are independent but co-equal. Again he didn’t understand this and was talking about how AG bondi was right to “work with the president.” I lost my temper a bit and tried to explain, but just like any republicans I chat with, they don’t give a fuck about what you have to say. It’s like they just want a dictator and fuck the Constitution. I thought these people were “constructionists” when it came to the document, but I think they’ve traded in the rule of law for a dictatorship. I sure in the hell wish I could leave this country because there is nothing good that’s coming are way.
PaulBCsays
Chris L.@16 How is he “not a maga type”? Serious question. I’m sure you have your own notion of the difference.
Maybe he doesn’t wear the hat, but he sounds like he’s on board with Trump’s autogolpe. That is for all intents and purposes a supporter of Trump’s movement or “MAGA”.
indianajonessays
@PaulBC 17: I have distant in-law relatives in Texas who are Republican but not MAGA types. It’s a meaningless claim, maybe a security blanket. Every vote they have taken for 10 years has supported Trump, but that’s not WHY they did it you see. It’s like they don’t have a political position or morals or ethics or anything like that. They have a brand name and they will vote for that. Did I mention that they are white and country club with liveried and usually black waiters rich.
Oh, also gun nuts. The first time anyone from here in Oz visited them, the first face to face meeting for any of us, they greeted my brother with a loaded gun at the front door. Un-fucken-real.
PaulBCsays
indianajones@18 So it’s like: We vote the same, we share the values, but we don’t wear the hats. And we’re rich.
indianajonessays
@19 That, and don’t call us MAGA.
lochabersays
Some people just really hate the Democratic party, despite agreeing with more of their actual positions than the ones of the Republican party.
And, for some people, it’s an identity thing.
I don’t get it at all, but I’m marginally aware of it. No idea how to reach these people.
Silentbobsays
@ 15 John Morales
In which Morales tells someone off for being hyperliteral with no sense of irony whatsoever. X-D
( Also, dude, the “golden rule” – do unto others… – expressed empathy millennia ago whether there was a word for it or not. (The point of #7 in case you missed it.))
Silentbobsays
@ 15 Morales
(Shame he got elected, eh? It makes everything ever so much worse)
Given whom you’re addressing I assume you’re expressing “empathy” with the obsessions of StevoR, who claims people not voting for Harris because of her support for Gazan genocide handed the election to Trump.
In which case, yes, it is absolutely a shame Harris handed the election to Trump by supporting genocide. Good point dude.
StevoRsays
@ ^ Silentbob : Harris did NOT “hand the election to Trump”. That is utterly false. She did all she could to win it and anyone eligible to vote in the final relatively final free and fair elections who did NOT vote for Kamala Harris and the non-Fascist alternative to Trump’s fascism failed the most basic test of ethics and intelligence possible.
Nor did Kamala “support genocide” as I’;ve state d and supporte dwith evdienc e multiple time sbefore. You silentbon are blatantly lying.and refusing toaccpet reality here.
You, Silentbob like beholder, are also obvs overlooking the reality that we are now seeing unfold as to the Trump alternative to the Democratic parties two state solution policy which is the Trump Gaza plan – Israel gets to committ a far worse genocide and ethnic cleansingand the Palestinians get totally wipe dout udner Trumpas I & others predicted.
StevoRsays
@14. thetRump enabling disingenuosu troll : “There haven’t been free or fair elections since long before I was born.”
Nonsense. The USA may have had a terrible political system with two parties – and ONLY two actual options for POTUS for centuries but that’s not the same thing as not having a free and fair election between those two – and contrary to the lies of the bothsiderists – .two very different parties.
Also however, bad things were before putting Trump’s fascists in unchecked charge as you helped to do by attacking only Kamala Harris and the democratic party and voting for Trump via Stein as third party spoiler has made things many many times worse.
lanirsays
As far as I can tell the only difference Kirk had with the other loonies is his “prove me wrong” branding. And branding is really all it is.
“Prove me wrong” is a taunt, but one you’re not supposed to understand. The person saying or posting it knows full well they’re never going to listen to a thing you say. They’ll either reply with something pithy that doesn’t really disprove whatever you say or they’ll change the subject. They generally have indefensible views but they won’t bother defending them. They’ll just keep burying you under more of them. And when they sucker you in by pretending they’ll engage with you in good faith, they’ll use your conversation as a performance of how right they really are to have those indefensible views they aren’t defending to the cheers and jeers of their supporters.
“Prove me wrong” is a taunt, but one you’re not supposed to understand. The person saying or posting it knows full well they’re never going to listen to a thing you say. They’ll either reply with something pithy that doesn’t really disprove whatever you say or they’ll change the subject
This sounds so close to the Gish gallop and creationist “debate” challenges in general that I wonder how people get fooled by the same tricks again and again. Even the one thing that Ezra Klein says is good about Charlie Kirk is not new and is fundamentally manipulative.
And, the rtwing xtian terror continues to push us down the Death Spiral. That is what all the insanity and destruction of the plutocracy running this country tells me. LOL ‘prove me wrong’
weylguysays
As a Christian, I hope Charlie Kirk somehow made it into Heaven, where he will be joined by the thousands of children who also died by the gun violence he advocated.
jrkrideausays
I don’t live it the USA and had never heard of Charlie Kirk. He seems to have been a horrible person. The hagiography since his death reminds me of Horst Wessel.
John Moralessays
He was featured on this blog more than once, jrkrideau.
…
Today, Explained co-host Noel King spoke with Mehdi Hasan about his appearance on Surrounded — and what it taught him about this charged political moment.
Below is an excerpt of their conversation, edited for length and clarity. There’s much more in the full podcast, so listen to Today, Explained wherever you get podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and Spotify…
beholdersays
@32 John Morales
And he shared your views about Russia
Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
John Moralessays
Indeed, beholder… unless it’s a digital clock, of course. :)
“He seems to have been a horrible person.”, just not about Russian aggression. Right?
StevoRsays
On topic, that was an absolutley brilliant and spot on video by Rebecca and I so well backed upand supported with Kirk’s own hateful words.
34 The Trump enabling bad faith troll – as noted before you and Kirk were allies in both helping get Trump installed in power.
Yeah, fuck that guy.
Here’s a blocked comment from someone who definitely needs to watch this video.
Nope. Not one objectionable thing.
The Kimmel thread requires a flush to remove a troll infestation.
Yay, a new RW video! I’ve also been enjoying the videos of knittingcultlady on YouTube.
She is an expert on cult psychology and has years of direct experience in addition to degrees. She also knits.
Erika Kirk is doing a perfect rendition of the skinny white lady who upholds the cult by putting a pretty face on their organization. Melania, Ghislane Maxwell and the ditzy women who acts as dumpsters press secretary also qualify.
“Not one objectionable thing.”
That reminds me of someone I saw earlier this week.Someone was trying to explain that Kirk’s comments about not trusting a pilot were not racist if taken in context. But the context they provided was just more racism and dishonesty.
Some people just have big mental filters that won’t let them recognize the implications of things people say, if they’re framed in “reasonable” language.
I was going to post on the previous thread but it is polluted by trolls as mentioned above. But this is still relevant here.
Kirk is irrelevant. What is happening is the complete takeover of the US media by Trump and his minions. Kirk is just the latest excuse. I just saw something from Rachel Cohen (a lawyer who resigned from a firm that made a deal with Trump) that one of the lawyer firm working on the merger of Nexstar and Tegna was one of the firms that made a deal with Trump. Nexstar is the media group that owns many ABC affiliates that pressured ABC to remove Kimmel by saying they wouldn’t broadcast the show.
So what you have is a company that wants to have a merger approved using Trump tainted lawyers to do Trump approved censorship to get that merger done. Kirk is just an excuse. And this is just one example that we can see of the corruption that is going on in the media industry. Trump is taking over the industry and whatever isn’t actually taken over will just toe the line to stay on his good side. And you also have the tech industry with Intel having 10% being taken by the government and NVIDIA giving a percentage of the profits for selling chips to China.
The US isn’t on the way to autocracy, it’s already there. And anyone hoping to change that in the midterm election is deluded. There won’t be free and fair elections for the midterm or for the foreseeable future. Oh, there will be election but they definitely won’t be free and fair.
The response to Kirk’s murder is just a distraction and a better excuse than what they could have come up with otherwise. It helps speed up what comes next. The US is already in the camp of Russia, Hungary, Turkey, … but with so much more resources and power that the entire world will suffer (and being in Canada, we will soon see the effects ourselves in a much more negative way than tariffs).
Empathy, strangely enough, is a word coined only in the 20th century. See Google for more. However, the Bible repeatedly claims God is just, compassionate, and merciful. And God in the Bible repeatedly commands us to be likewise. So Kirk did not know what he was babbling about, as usual. Lots of dumbass theist have seemingly been taking up the claim Jesus “wasn’t woke”.
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous.
1 Peter 3:8
@6: Oh, now they’re hearing what Jesus actually said and they’re whining it’s weak and woke. 🙄
[OT]
“Empathy, strangely enough, is a word coined only in the 20th century.”
Before that term was used in English, the term ‘sympathy’ was used to express that specific sense.
e.g. Oxford Academic’s edition of Sympathy: A History
“Sympathy…is that by which we enter into the situation of another person, and by changing places in fancy with the sufferer, conceive ourselves enduring all the same torments.”
@2
Some of Charlie Kirk’s comments, in print form:
Charlie Kirk in his own words
The Charlie Kirk eulogies make me think of that old snark “I will always love the false impression I had of you.”
The things people claim he represented don’t sound bad in themselves. It’s just when you try to match them with his words and actions, that the disconnect becomes clear. He was an extremist and hate-monger. And the people who defend him accuse you of disrespect when you confront them with his actual words.
He worked to suppress free speech (of academics). Even the claim that he supported “spirited discourse” rests on his intentional targeting and verbal bullying of naive college students who were unprepared for debate. This is literally the kind of indoctrination that the right accuses professors of carrying out in their classrooms.
“Debate me” is also an old trope of creationists. Debate is rarely the way to get to the heart of a dispute and only meaningful between parties of equal skill and preparation, something Kirk made sure was not the case.
I missed his significance, since I don’t pay attention to the far right. I was vaguely aware of his existence (mostly after looking up an interview he did with Stephen Miller in 2023 about mass deportation).
In retrospect, it’s clear there was an emotional cult around him and the rightwing is not only using his death as a cudgel but is also genuinely distraught the way people are when they lose a charismatic leader. It took almost a week for this to sink in while I wondered why it was suddenly all Charlie Kirk all the time (meanwhile, the government was overthrown by youth in Nepal, and the strongest evidence was found so far of possible life on Mars!).
That doesn’t excuse him or even merit my sympathy. It does help explain why they are unusually unhinged right now even by their own standards. I acknowledge that some people and not only his family will genuinely mourn him. That’s actually another reason not to demand it from me. Plenty of mourners already.
cheerfulcharlie @ # 6: Empathy, strangely enough, is a word coined only in the 20th century.
In English translation. Germans, I gather from a reliable source citing another reliable source, had it since 1857.
@11
German has another word that was relevant in a discussion of Charlie Kirk: Backpfeifengesicht
The Charlie Kirk bubble is real. Thank whoever handles his brand, I suppose. His fans see one side of him and his “objectionable” statements are completely off their radar. Not much different than the Creationism bubble or the Democrat bubble in that regard. People doing their own research have to be willing to put aside some deep-rooted cognitive biases and actively seek out information they don’t like to hear or aren’t allowed to hear if they even stand a chance of escaping those bubbles.
@5 Jean
There haven’t been free or fair elections since long before I was born. Glad to hear you’re awake and aware that there is a problem.
beholder, your claim “There haven’t been free or fair elections since long before I was born. Glad to hear you’re awake and aware that there is a problem.” does not really address the issue at hand.
In your opinion; the actual sentiment you quoted is expressing that, considering the existing baseline since you were born and what we were accustomed to before Trump took over the USA, for the midterm or for the foreseeable future that degree of ‘free and fair’ will not apply.
It’s a relative, not an absolute claim, and it’s to the effect that this Trump administration has no qualms about being openly pressured and unfair.
(Shame he got elected, eh? It makes everything ever so much worse)
I work with a guy who’s a Republican, but not a maga type. He came in and was glad that people got fired for criticizing kirk. I tried to explain that the First amendment covers speech, even when someone speaks ill of another person. He didn’t understand that and really didn’t understand how the amendment works. It’s the same with the three branches of government and how they are independent but co-equal. Again he didn’t understand this and was talking about how AG bondi was right to “work with the president.” I lost my temper a bit and tried to explain, but just like any republicans I chat with, they don’t give a fuck about what you have to say. It’s like they just want a dictator and fuck the Constitution. I thought these people were “constructionists” when it came to the document, but I think they’ve traded in the rule of law for a dictatorship. I sure in the hell wish I could leave this country because there is nothing good that’s coming are way.
Chris L.@16 How is he “not a maga type”? Serious question. I’m sure you have your own notion of the difference.
Maybe he doesn’t wear the hat, but he sounds like he’s on board with Trump’s autogolpe. That is for all intents and purposes a supporter of Trump’s movement or “MAGA”.
@PaulBC 17: I have distant in-law relatives in Texas who are Republican but not MAGA types. It’s a meaningless claim, maybe a security blanket. Every vote they have taken for 10 years has supported Trump, but that’s not WHY they did it you see. It’s like they don’t have a political position or morals or ethics or anything like that. They have a brand name and they will vote for that. Did I mention that they are white and country club with liveried and usually black waiters rich.
Oh, also gun nuts. The first time anyone from here in Oz visited them, the first face to face meeting for any of us, they greeted my brother with a loaded gun at the front door. Un-fucken-real.
indianajones@18 So it’s like: We vote the same, we share the values, but we don’t wear the hats. And we’re rich.
@19 That, and don’t call us MAGA.
Some people just really hate the Democratic party, despite agreeing with more of their actual positions than the ones of the Republican party.
And, for some people, it’s an identity thing.
I don’t get it at all, but I’m marginally aware of it. No idea how to reach these people.
@ 15 John Morales
In which Morales tells someone off for being hyperliteral with no sense of irony whatsoever. X-D
( Also, dude, the “golden rule” – do unto others… – expressed empathy millennia ago whether there was a word for it or not. (The point of #7 in case you missed it.))
@ 15 Morales
Given whom you’re addressing I assume you’re expressing “empathy” with the obsessions of StevoR, who claims people not voting for Harris because of her support for Gazan genocide handed the election to Trump.
In which case, yes, it is absolutely a shame Harris handed the election to Trump by supporting genocide. Good point dude.
@ ^ Silentbob : Harris did NOT “hand the election to Trump”. That is utterly false. She did all she could to win it and anyone eligible to vote in the final relatively final free and fair elections who did NOT vote for Kamala Harris and the non-Fascist alternative to Trump’s fascism failed the most basic test of ethics and intelligence possible.
Nor did Kamala “support genocide” as I’;ve state d and supporte dwith evdienc e multiple time sbefore. You silentbon are blatantly lying.and refusing toaccpet reality here.
You, Silentbob like beholder, are also obvs overlooking the reality that we are now seeing unfold as to the Trump alternative to the Democratic parties two state solution policy which is the Trump Gaza plan – Israel gets to committ a far worse genocide and ethnic cleansingand the Palestinians get totally wipe dout udner Trumpas I & others predicted.
@14. thetRump enabling disingenuosu troll : “There haven’t been free or fair elections since long before I was born.”
Nonsense. The USA may have had a terrible political system with two parties – and ONLY two actual options for POTUS for centuries but that’s not the same thing as not having a free and fair election between those two – and contrary to the lies of the bothsiderists – .two very different parties.
Also however, bad things were before putting Trump’s fascists in unchecked charge as you helped to do by attacking only Kamala Harris and the democratic party and voting for Trump via Stein as third party spoiler has made things many many times worse.
As far as I can tell the only difference Kirk had with the other loonies is his “prove me wrong” branding. And branding is really all it is.
“Prove me wrong” is a taunt, but one you’re not supposed to understand. The person saying or posting it knows full well they’re never going to listen to a thing you say. They’ll either reply with something pithy that doesn’t really disprove whatever you say or they’ll change the subject. They generally have indefensible views but they won’t bother defending them. They’ll just keep burying you under more of them. And when they sucker you in by pretending they’ll engage with you in good faith, they’ll use your conversation as a performance of how right they really are to have those indefensible views they aren’t defending to the cheers and jeers of their supporters.
Charlie Kirk controversy is bankable.
Massive Charlie Kirk sports news scam targets NFL players, teams
lanir@26
This sounds so close to the Gish gallop and creationist “debate” challenges in general that I wonder how people get fooled by the same tricks again and again. Even the one thing that Ezra Klein says is good about Charlie Kirk is not new and is fundamentally manipulative.
And, the rtwing xtian terror continues to push us down the Death Spiral. That is what all the insanity and destruction of the plutocracy running this country tells me. LOL ‘prove me wrong’
As a Christian, I hope Charlie Kirk somehow made it into Heaven, where he will be joined by the thousands of children who also died by the gun violence he advocated.
I don’t live it the USA and had never heard of Charlie Kirk. He seems to have been a horrible person. The hagiography since his death reminds me of Horst Wessel.
He was featured on this blog more than once, jrkrideau.
And he shared your views about Russia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Kirk#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
The problem with debating fascists — from a guy who’s debated just about everyone
@32 John Morales
Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Indeed, beholder… unless it’s a digital clock, of course. :)
“He seems to have been a horrible person.”, just not about Russian aggression. Right?
On topic, that was an absolutley brilliant and spot on video by Rebecca and I so well backed upand supported with Kirk’s own hateful words.
34 The Trump enabling bad faith troll – as noted before you and Kirk were allies in both helping get Trump installed in power.