Does this sound familiar?


A historical analysis reveals something that will probably sound familiar.

“We can’t put a date on Doomsday, but by looking at the 5,000 years of [civilisation], we can understand the trajectories we face today – and self-termination is most likely,” says Dr Luke Kemp at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of Cambridge.

“I’m pessimistic about the future,” he says. “But I’m optimistic about people.” Kemp’s new book covers the rise and collapse of more than 400 societies over 5,000 years and took seven years to write. The lessons he has drawn are often striking: people are fundamentally egalitarian but are led to collapses by enriched, status-obsessed elites, while past collapses often improved the lives of ordinary citizens.

Today’s global civilisation, however, is deeply interconnected and unequal and could lead to the worst societal collapse yet, he says. The threat is from leaders who are “walking versions of the dark triad” – narcissism, psychopathy and Machiavellianism – in a world menaced by the climate crisis, nuclear weapons, artificial intelligence and killer robots.

Do you know anybody who fits that description? Can you think of maybe a large number of people like that?

“History is best told as a story of organised crime,” Kemp says. “It is one group creating a monopoly on resources through the use of violence over a certain territory and population.”

it is the few people high in the dark triad who fall into races for resources, arms and status, he says. “Then as elites extract more wealth from the people and the land, they make societies more fragile, leading to infighting, corruption, immiseration of the masses, less healthy people, overexpansion, environmental degradation and poor decision making by a small oligarchy. The hollowed-out shell of a society is eventually cracked asunder by shocks such as disease, war or climate change.”

Uh-oh.

Kemp says his argument that Goliaths require rulers who are strong in the triad of dark traits is borne out today. “The three most powerful men in the world are a walking version of the dark triad: Trump is a textbook narcissist, Putin is a cold psychopath, and Xi Jinping came to rule [China] by being a master Machiavellian manipulator.”

“Our corporations and, increasingly, our algorithms, also resemble these kinds of people,” he says. “They’re basically amplifying the worst of us.”

Kemp points to these “agents of doom” as the source of the current trajectory towards societal collapse. “These are the large, psychopathic corporations and groups which produce global catastrophic risk,” he says. “Nuclear weapons, climate change, AI, are only produced by a very small number of secretive, highly wealthy, powerful groups, like the military-industrial complex, big tech and the fossil fuel industry.

It’s all a bit on the nose, I think.

Maybe I should take up farming as a hobby.

But maybe our leaders will turn out to be enlightened and kind?

Comments

  1. StevoR says

    We can’t put a date on Doomsday but there is a countdown clock :

    https://doomsdayclockcurrenttime.com/

    There is an old Midnight oil song saying we have Minutes To Midnight (3 minutes long) but then that was back in the 1980’s..

    This quote by HG Wells srings to mind :

    “Civilization is in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.”

    Source (among otjher places and variants of this) : https://quotefancy.com/quote/820396/H-G-Wells-Civilization-is-in-a-race-between-education-and-catastrophe-Let-us-learn-the

    Along with the knowledge that right now catastrophe seems to be winning and education adn the truth are falling well out of favour in some rather significant nations.

  2. StevoR says

    Just watched this – The Atomic People ( 1 hr 30 minutes long) powerful, moving, thought-provoking documentary on the Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. WARNING: Confronting material, real life horror, war & aftermath.

    80th anniversary of the latter today. With eyewitness testimony and interviews from the Hibakusha.

    When the Atomic Bombs were dropped or just afterwards, there were just three Bombs. Today that number is roughly 15,000 nuclear bombs in the world. Almost all far more powerful and destructive by orders of magnitude than the A-Bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. See Animation shows the deadly evolution of nuclear weapons (3 mins 15 secs, Tech Insider) & Nuclear Weapons: A Time-Lapse History (TDC under 5 mins long)

    We have forgotten what should never be forgotten. When it comes to how horrific nuclear WMDs are. To the threat the pose to us all. Haven’t we?

    Then there’s the reality of our rapidly overheating planet, the Mass Extinction we are causing and living through with biodiversity – a major and under-appreciated significant art of that being the insect – and arachnid – apocalypse noted in the previous thread here.

  3. hellslittlestangel says

    The most optimistic comment I can make is that whatever comes after us won’t have vast quantities of fossil fuels to help them fuck themselves up.

  4. says

    PZ wrote that Kemp said: “Our corporations and, increasingly, our algorithms, also resemble these kinds of people,” he says. “They’re basically amplifying the worst of us.” Kemp points to these “agents of doom” as the source of the current trajectory towards societal collapse.

    That reinforces my re-post of what I said here on 05 august 2025:
    Based on decades of personal experience and recorded observation of human behavior, we have, for years, posited that human society is generally a terrible failure: greedy, destructive, murderous, etc. There are some important devastating groupings of humans that are responsible for much of the death and destruction inherent in human society. They are personal and organized selfishness and hatred as manifest in religion, crapitallism, racism, political chauvinism, etc.
    This ‘comic’ points out the gross failure of human society succinctly:
    https://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/3187.png
    My organization is not wealthy or powerful, but, we speak and act in ways that attempt to negate much of those failures of society. I’m going to carefully climb down off this soapbox and get back to work at efforts that are positive, progressive, secular and caring.
      At this point, I don’t know if human society can pull out of the Death Spiral we are in.

  5. says

    @1 StevoR quoted HG Wells: Civilization is in a race between education and catastrophe
    I reply: The drooling majority masses are supporting a war on education! As I’ve said before: You can lead a horses ass to knowledge, but you can’t make him think.
    PZ wrote with major sarcasm: But maybe our leaders will turn out to be enlightened and kind?
    I reply: enlightened and kind?; Those words aren’t even in their vocabulary!

  6. silvrhalide says

    @2 I watched it on PBS. The US dropped the bombs but the lifelong isolation and social cruelty towards the hibakusha–that was all Japan. The US clinics for the nuclear survivors were a horror too–in the words of one survivor “they treated us like guinea pigs”. No treatments as such, just diagnostic tests and samples. Although you could make the argument that the US didn’t treat the downwinders in the US any better.
    https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/trinity-test-downwinders.htm

    No wonder Mango Mussolini wants to shut down the US National Park Service.

  7. birgerjohansson says

    Science Fiction afictionados may recall the discussion in Stanislaw Lem’s Fiasco about why we have not (yet) found signs of other civilisations.
    Approx…” at this stage a civilization needs to make global decisions to survive”.

  8. birgerjohansson says

    New rule: any prospective leader of a nation say, Britain or USA or elsewhere should first have a thorough health check by Independent doctors.

    The check shoould include signs of narcissism, psychopathy and other disfunctional personality traits.
    And – in the case of Boris Johnson – signs of being a high-performing alcoholic.
    Being a rapist is a big red flag.

  9. hillaryrettig1 says

    SteveoR – great links, thanks. It guts me that the anniversary of the bomb is going mostly unnoted. HG Wells was cool, I have his bio here waiting to be reread.

    Just reread Marge Piercy’s Woman on the Edge of Time for the first time in decades. What a great book, what a great utopian vision. Published in 1976, she notes in the forward to the new edition (2016) how everything has gotten worse. Sigh.

  10. hillaryrettig1 says

    Reminder that Grave of the Fireflies is still streaming on Netflix, an animated film about post-WWII Japan seen from the standpoint of an orphaned brother and sister. One of the best antiwar movies ever.

    Also check out The Burmese Harp (aka Harp of Burma), another terrific antiwar movie.

  11. birgerjohansson says

    There is a great Japanese antiwar film trilogy, unfortunately I do not recall the titles.

  12. silvrhalide says

  13. John Morales says

    Boring old-style doom-mongering is meh.

    (Like the Doomsday clock, basically — ever and perpetually just before midnight)

  14. silvrhalide says

    @9, 10 I could barely get through Barefoot Gen. “Be strong like the wheat” I don’t think Dance of the Fireflies will be queued up on my watchlist anytime soon.
    HG Wells stories were pretty cool but he was a big proponent of the eugenics movement. Even taking into consideration that people are a product of the times they live in (racism was decidedly the norm at the time and taken as fact) he still believed/wanted all nonwhite races (including the white non-Aryan ones–“dirty white”) to interbreed with whites and die out on their own if humanity was to progress into some glorious (decidedly white) future. Might have to check out Woman on the Edge of Time though.

  15. silvrhalide says

    @12 “unsolicited patient complaints”
    I’m wondering if that means that the patients complained without being asked/prompted or if there was a difference between referred patients and non-referred patients.

    Either way, it’s not exactly news. Other studies have found that physicians were paid by pharmaceutical companies to prescribe their patented prescription medication to patients via kickbacks (excuse me “rebates”), particularly notable in oncologists but also noted everywhere else in the medical industry–it was equally true for obesity/diabetes meds, female birth control, etc.

    ** They’re called rebates because in theory, you can pass the savings on to your patient. Yeah right.

  16. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    Given what such leaders have done and say they intend to do, the world’s constituents have shown remarkable restraint, particularly the ones who maintain their food, health, safety, indulgences, sanitation, and transportation maintenance. And the leaders have shown remarkable luck surviving their own self-destructive habits and preference for unsavory associates.

  17. John Morales says

    As my eventual step-father used to say, ‘You can’t beat the system’, you being one of the world’s constituents. In short, ‘remarkable restraint’ is a consequence of potential consequences for a lack of restraint.

    (Also, ‘bosses’ are bosses, and very few of them are actually ‘leaders’)

  18. jrkrideau says

    Let me see if I have this correct.

    “Trump is a textbook narcissist, Putin is a cold psychopath, and Xi Jinping came to rule [China] by being a master Machiavellian manipulator.”

    President Putin has managed to take a disaster  called Russia and raise it up to the point that the CIA,—the CIA!—ranks it as No. 4 in PPP GDP.  Life expectancy has improved. Overall living standards have improved.

    President Xi has managed to (almost?) completele eradicate abject poverty in the People’s Republic of China; not poverty but extreme poverty and China now has the world,”s  highest PPP GDP—again from the CIA. 

    President Trump seems to be managing to deprive, several million or tens of millions of US citizens of medical insurance. 

    Kemp is an idiot.

  19. John Morales says

    “President Putin has managed to take a disaster called Russia and raise it up to the point that the CIA,—the CIA!—ranks it as No. 4 in PPP GDP. Life expectancy has improved. Overall living standards have improved.”

    LOL.

    Go on, cite that data.

    Everyone who knows anything knows Russia has used up its Soviet stockpiles, has used up most of its savings (sovereign fund), has fully geared up to a wartime economy and that only produces stuff that gets blown up.

    You, mate, are fucking guzzling the propaganda.

    (Most amusing, I remember your wankings about the invincibility of Russia, and it now controls less territory in Ukraine than it did when you parroted their propaganda)

  20. raven says

    I’m surprised that no one has brought up the famous Arnold Toynbee quote.

    Toynbee:

    Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now.

    Toynbee said this long ago in the mid 20th century.
    These 19 civilizations all collapsed from within.

    That fits with our present situation.
    The USA is very definitely being attacked from within and is on a downhill slide right now.

  21. Hemidactylus says

    silvrhalide @16
    The Time Machine could be taken as descriptively dysgenic social commentary in how it treated the “upstairs/downstairs” class divide of Wells’ time extrapolated far into the future. Though critical of the social stratification which resulted in the Eloi and Morlocks, I don’t think he was promoting the assumed dysgenic outcome in any manner. I recall Ray Lankester’s degeneration ideas having some influence on Wells’ thinking.

    Wells was at least Fabian adjacent and eugenics was fashionable in some socialist and progressive social circles. I recall him invested in a prescriptive eugenics in his nonfictional views, but his ideas might have changed over his life arc.

  22. John Morales says

    “Though critical of the social stratification which resulted in the Eloi and Morlocks, I don’t think he was promoting the assumed dysgenic outcome in any manner.”

    I entirely concur.

    The Eloi represent the billionaire class, against which this blog rails, and the Morlocks the, um, lesser people.

  23. Hemidactylus says

    Yeah until the horrors of WWII were unveiled HG Wells was a eugenic prick. From an essay by Wells scholar John S Partington (referencing a preceding essay on Wells’ views previous to the 30s):

    While Wells consistently rejected positive eugenics, claiming that the creation of an ideal type was antithetical to the principles of Darwinian evolution and arguing that competitive selection was a prerequisite for species advance, he felt that negative eugenics–the prevention of “congenital invalids” and certain anti-social types from breeding and the employment of euthanasia against severely “diseased” new-borns–did have a role in a scientifically-organised society.

    Partington tempers that slightly:

    I argued in that article that
    Wells’s eugenic advocacy, however, could not be viewed in isolation but was intrinsically linked to his more immediate social policy concerns such as improved housing, better education and universal healthcare.

    From H.G. Wells’s Eugenic Thinking of the 1930S and 1940S. (Essays).
    Utopian Studies

    On the later Wells:

    As Wells comments in The Work, Wealth and Happiness of Mankind, “Even in negative eugenics there is no assurance that undesirable qualities will be eliminated altogether. Certain types of mental deficiency are supposed to be
    ‘recessive.’ It is quite possible, therefore, that two quite admirable people should have a defective child. […] The sterilization
    of defectives will not “end, it will only diminish, the supply of
    defectives” (679).

    These complexities revealed by genetics were sufficient to maintain Wells’s objection to positive eugenics, though, as is implied by
    this last quotation, he did not reject negative eugenics in the 1930s. Indeed, in The Science of Life he provides evidence of its continued urgency:…

    It goes on but with nuance:

    Despite the tone of these utterances, however, by the early 1930s there was a difference in Wells’s eugenic intent from that of thirty years previous. This difference was to be found in medical advances. When Wells writes of the diseased or the mentally ill in the 1930s, he is considering a much smaller group than he considered in the Edwardian period.

    After the awkwardness of Nazi eugenics Wells vibe-shifted a tad:

    In terms of human improvement, education was Wells’s first and last hope. He considered negative eugenics as an inquiring biologist was perhaps bound to do, only to ultimately (though after many years of considering its value) dismiss it as a breach of human rights…The Second World War, and the eugenic experiments being revealed by the liberation of the concentration camps and death camps of Central Europe, had poisoned the reputation of eugenics and apparently forced Wells, the erstwhile half-baked eugenicist, to reject it out of hand.

    John S. Partington has a book on Wells called Building Cosmopolis
    The Political Thought of H. G. Wells

    If someone like Ernst Mayr had toyed with positive eugenics as he did I can cringe and give him a nasty scowl for that. Negative eugenics takes it to a different level! Fuck you HG Wells. And with their pathogenic and parasitic metaphors the Nazis went well beyond negative eugenics ideology.

  24. John Morales says

    Fuck you HG Wells.

    His visionary fiction was rather good and he was generally better than most contemporaries when it came to racism and elitism.

    Any way, do go on insulting him — in his grave, he neither hears nor cares.

    (Your opinion is just that, Hemidactylus; and I have my own about you. But you are not yet dead, you still care)

  25. Hemidactylus says

    Those who invoke Machiavelli’s name in such a blasé manner as a synonym for evil probably have no idea of his all too real sufferings via the strappado for being perceived on the wrong side of Medici intrigue. Yes he would later kiss up to them, but they and others are the actual villains despite his disparaged political power writings.

    Cesare Borgia and his henchman Micheletto Corella as well as Pope Alexander VI were models he depicted. Savonarola with his “bonfire of the vanities” was a fanatic but also unarmed prophet. I can’t recall if Machiavelli deployed him but Ferdinand I of Naples was mentioned by Jacob Burckhardt for his mummy museum which grotesquely kept his enemies close. That’s some Hannibal Lecter level shit there and speaking of Hannibal we have there depicted in book and movie a hyperbolized Florentine reaction to the Pazzi conspiracy against…the Medici.

    Given that violent backdrop Machiavelli was a mere writer who became a demonized adjective. He was at least Renaissance humanism adjacent though that humanism would become a pejorative much later for those obsessed with classicism. This view was relevant to Huxley vs Arnold and later more vehement rifts to the present.

  26. John Morales says

    [Machiavellianism:Machiavelli::Social Darwinism:Darwinism]

    He was not a mere writer. He was a thinker. And what he came up with was, basically, RealPolitik.

  27. Hemidactylus says

    John Morales
    Social Darwinism isn’t really a thing, so maybe you are saying the same about Machiavellianism despite the latter as a psychological concept with questionable historic referent. There’s gotta be a better term than Machiavellianism.

    As for Wells are you going to ignore the negative eugenic elephant in the room? I mean I agree his fiction can be held separate. His based nonfictional worldview is a bit sus.

    Machiavelli died in 1527 and it’s fun to watch the two popular Borgia shows (historic fiction both) and documentaries on the Medici to get an idea of his milieu. I’m not about to pin Kissinger on Machiavelli.

  28. John Morales says

    He wrote satire and allegory, Hemidactylus. Parables.

    Anyway, you go on hating him, I cannot stop you, cringe as you look while you do it.

  29. John Morales says

    It’s as if you’re not following me.

    A historical analysis reveals something that will probably sound familiar.

    “We can’t put a date on Doomsday, but by looking at the 5,000 years of [civilisation], we can understand the trajectories we face today – and self-termination is most likely,” says Dr Luke Kemp at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk at the University of Cambridge.

    “I’m pessimistic about the future,” he says. “But I’m optimistic about people.” Kemp’s new book covers the rise and collapse of more than 400 societies over 5,000 years and took seven years to write. The lessons he has drawn are often striking: people are fundamentally egalitarian but are led to collapses by enriched, status-obsessed elites, while past collapses often improved the lives of ordinary citizens.

    It sounds no less pessimistic than familiar, and I note that in every single instance in the past in which that quite familiar claim has been made it has not come to pass. You know, Matthew 24:34 type of thing.

    Doomsday clock, since whenever.

    Maybe consider that civilisations are but organisms in some sociopolitical milieu, and some die, some are born, and so forth.
    That is, as a population of civs, not as the thing itself.

    (The barbarians are at the gate! Malthusian chaos! Big Brother is a bother)

  30. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @29 Hemidactylus:

    Ferdinand I of Naples was mentioned by Jacob Burckhardt for his mummy museum

    Wikipedia says that, uncited. (Depicted in TV drama The Borgias). Ferdinand (aka Ferrante) lived in the 1400s. Jacob Burckhardt was a historian in the 1800s.

    A rando was unable to find any other sources, much less contemporary, and got no response from r/AskHistorians seeking more. I also had no luck corroborating.

    I DID find the passage in Burckhardt’s The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy (1860), page 22. (German filtered through Google Translate)

    Now, in addition to hunting, which he practiced ruthlessly, Ferrante indulged in two kinds of pleasure: to have his opponents near him, either alive in well-guarded dungeons or dead and embalmed, in the dress they wore during their lifetime. He chuckled when he spoke to his confidants about the prisoners; not even a secret was made of the mummy collection. His victims were almost exclusively men, whom he had seized through treason, even at his royal table.
    […]
    Even genuine Spaniards in Italy almost always appear degenerate; but the outcome of this Marrano dynasty (1494 and 1503) clearly demonstrates a blatant lack of race. Ferrante dies of inner sorrow and anguish; Alfonso accuses his own brother Fedcrigo, the only good member of the family, of treason and insults him in the most unworthy manner.

    Ah, that 19th century racism. Spaniards circa 1500, so praiseworthy. /s

    Wikipedia – Marrano (Spanish crypto-Jews, as in Spanish Inquisition converts)

    I’m thinking the claim is apocryphal.

  31. Hemidactylus says

    @34 John Morales
    Backing up the truck with the requisite reverse mode beeping I was initially following up to silvrhalide @16 saying:

    HG Wells stories were pretty cool but he was a big proponent of the eugenics movement.

    Can you even dispute that? The Time Machine was dysgenic, no? Have you heard of Lankester’s concept of degeneration?

    I can’t even fathom why you think the negative eugenics is not relevant or why you are evasive.

  32. John Morales says

    HG Wells stories were pretty cool but he was a big proponent of the eugenics movement.

    Can you even dispute that?

    No. Not that I disputed that.

    I can’t even fathom why you think the negative eugenics is not relevant or why you are evasive.

    I wrote nothing about the eugenics movement, pro or con or otherwise.

    You are reacting to nothing. What I wrote, I wrote, and it has zero to do with that.

    You tried to shit on the person, without basis.

    That’s the point.

    You have your own skewed jaundiced view, but as I noted: “He wrote satire and allegory, Hemidactylus. Parables.”

    (The author is not the art)

  33. Hemidactylus says

    In The Borgias: the hidden history G.J. Meyer says this:

    As the rebellious barons and the Angevin invaders slowly ran out of fight and Ferrante’s situation became less dire, he was freed to reveal facets of his character that earlier had been concealed—except, perhaps, from those who knew him best, onetime intimates like Alonso Borgia. It was at about this time, according to stories from credible sources, that he created the prison-cum-museum in which the embalmed bodies of defeated foes were displayed alongside cages in which living captives were either starved to death or left to slowly go insane. As his political position became secure, Ferrante became nearly as powerful a force in Italian politics as his father Alfonso had been. It would become clear soon enough that he was also just as meddlesome.

    There’s a vague reference to “credible sources”. Meyer’s endnoting is atrocious but I found this:

    Ferrante’s dark side is illuminated in perhaps excessively lurid detail in Prescott, Princes, p. 65

    Full bibliographical cite I’m not about to hunt down: Prescott, Orville. Princes of the Renaissance. London: George Allen & Unwin, 1970

    So maybe it was more legend than truth. The Borgias show took liberty with the stories having the mummies set up in some sort of Last Supper at a table to great effect for the scene. I think Micheletto (the cheese cutter guy) was visiting Naples, but it’s been years since I watched it.

  34. submoron says

    Flanders and Swann are doubtless considered hopelessly on fashioned and middle class nowadays but this 1967 still works provided that you know that it’s now about one hundred and ninety tons. allowing for population growth.
    I have seen it estimated
    Somewhere between death and birth
    There are now three thousand million
    People living on this earth
    And the stock-piled mass destruction
    Of the nuclear powers that be
    Equals for each man or woman
    Twenty tons of TNT.
    Every man of every nation
    Twenty tons of TNT
    Shall receive this allocation
    Twenty tons of TNT
    Texan, Bantu, Slav or Maori
    Argentine or Singhali
    Every maiden brings this dowry
    Twenty tons of TNT.
    Not for the thirty silver shilling
    Twenty tons of TNT
    Twenty thousand pounds of killing
    Twenty tons of TNT
    Twenty hundred years of teaching
    Give to each his legacy
    Plato, Buddha, Christ or Lenin
    Twenty tons of TNT.
    Father, mother, son and daughter
    Give us land and seed and water
    Children have no need of sharing
    At each new nativity
    Come the ghostly Magi bearing
    Twenty tons of TNT.
    Ends the tale that has no sequel
    Twenty tons of TNT
    Now in death are all men equal
    Twenty tons of TNT
    Teach me how to love my neighbour
    Do to him as he to me
    Share the fruits of all our labour
    Twenty tons of TNT.
    Writer(s): Michael Flanders

  35. submoron says

    Wells gave a glimpse into his flavour of utopia when he wrote in 1901 that “those swarms of black, and brown, and dirty-white, and yellow people” that fail to be “efficient” would have “to die out and disappear”. He also produced long screeds on Jews.

    From a Guardian article.

  36. Hemidactylus says

    In the category of most ironic town names (from submoron‘s link):

    When a £50,000 bronze statue of Wells was unveiled last year in Woking, Surrey, an official said the statue was meant to “inspire future generations of young people to continue in Wells’s legacy”.

  37. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @38 Hemidactylus:

    according to stories from credible sources, that he created the prison-cum-museum

    lol. Found it.

    Orville Prescott’s Princes of the Renaissance (1969), p69-70.

    it was Pontano who put into circulation one of the worst stories about his royal master’s villainies. Pontano said that Ferrante kept a private museum in which were preserved the embalmed bodies of his enemies, dressed in their favorite costumes. Ferrante, according to Pontano, had enjoyed gloating over the misery of his enemies when they were confined in dungeons and starved. He liked to continue his gloating after their deaths.

    Since Pontano, although greatly talented, was vain, sycophantic and treacherous himself, it is impossible to know whether the mummy story was an imaginary atrocity. But it is believable, because Ferrante was naturally cruel and did conciliate many of his enemies, pretend friendship, entertain them at dinners and then imprison or execute them.

    treacherous and impossible to know = credible.

  38. John Morales says

    jrkrideau @20, you’ve vanished, but here’s some more about Russia’s fantabulous economic miracle; enjoy:

  39. unclefrogy says

    But maybe our leaders will turn out to be enlightened and kind?

    that there looks to me to be the root of the problem this looking for an “enlightened leader” that eventually leads to a criminal take over of society with all the despotic results and collapse. It is and always was “We the People” it is by the consent of the governed any thing happens regardless of how or why that consent is granted freely given in the spirit of love and solidarity, provisionally on a day to day basis, abject subjugation by fear and terror and death or corrupt bribery and self interest. That consent must always be given without it there is nothing but death and collapse

  40. John Morales says

    I am not led by them, but they get to make the rules.

    Bosses, not “leaders”.

    (Quite the misnomer)

  41. John Morales says

    (Without goons to enforce his will, without Judges to exculpate his misdeeds, Trump is a fat ranty old man)

  42. beholder says

    @47 Akira

    Ugh, we got a Tankie in the forum.

    Tell us you’re an enthusiastic repeater for Washington propaganda in eight words. That’s pretty impressive. (What does Tankie even mean these days? Do Israel’s Merkava tanks count?)

    For that matter, Trump excluded, it feels like Kemp is shying away from listing any U.S. allies as examples of dangerous psychopaths. It was remiss not to include Starmer, Merz, Bin Salman, Netanyahu, or al-Sharaa in that company.

  43. John Morales says

    beholder, I see you do not dispute you are a ‘Tankie’.

    For you, courtesy of BubbleBot, after I put it to it:

    Me: What does Tankie even mean these days? Do Israel’s Merkava tanks count?

    BB: The term “Tankie” does not refer to literal tanks like Israel’s Merkava. It’s a political pejorative, originally coined to describe hardline Marxist–Leninists who supported the Soviet Union’s use of tanks to suppress uprisings—most notably the Hungarian Revolution (1956) and the Prague Spring (1968).

    🔍 Contemporary Usage

    Ideological meaning: A “Tankie” is someone who defends authoritarian communist regimes, especially Stalinist or militaristic anti-capitalist states.
    Expanded scope: The term now applies to those who support or excuse repression by states like China, North Korea, or Russia, often in opposition to Western liberalism.

    🛑 Misapplication

    Merkava tanks: These are Israeli military assets, not symbolic of Marxist–Leninist ideology. Associating them with “Tankie” is a category error—akin to confusing a metaphor with its literal referent.

    In short: “Tankie” is ideological, not mechanical. The Merkava doesn’t count.

  44. StevoR says

    @2. silvrhalide : “@2 I watched it (The Atomic People documentary about the hibakusha -ed) on PBS.”

    Here in Adelaide SA it was broadcast on TV on SBS on the 80th anniversary of the Nagasaki bombing – 9th August.

    @ 51, Disingenuous troll and Trump and fascism enabler beholder :

    @47 Akira : Ugh, we got a Tankie in the forum.

    Tell us you’re an enthusiastic repeater for Washington propaganda in eight words. That’s pretty impressive.

    Utter bullshit as usual from a Putin apologist and Trump enabler pretending to be left wing yet betraying and harming all those who are actually left wing.

    Calling out tankies – Putin apologists and suporters of the Russian invasion and genocide in Ukraine – does NOT make anyobne pro-USA propagandists. As someone who ha s proven to be a spreaderof trumper prop[agangda and anti-Democratic hate liek yourself clearly already knows.

    (What does Tankie even mean these days? Do Israel’s Merkava tanks count?)

    You already sound more than stupid and willfully ignorant enough beholder, you don’t have to deliberately fake yourself any more disingenuous stupidity. We all know by now what “tankie means and who is and isn’t one. You are.

  45. StevoR says

    As someone (beholder) who has proven to be a spreader of Trump propagangda and anti-Democratic hate like yourself clearly already knows.

  46. KG says

    For that matter, Trump excluded, it feels like Kemp is shying away from listing any U.S. allies as examples of dangerous psychopaths. – beholder@51

    Kemp of course told us why he selected the individuals he did:

    The three most powerful men in the world are a walking version of the dark triad: Trump is a textbook narcissist, Putin is a cold psychopath, and Xi Jinping came to rule [China] by being a master Machiavellian manipulator.” [emphasis added]

    So it only “feels like Kemp is shying away from listing any U.S. allies” if (a) you didn’t bother to read the quote properly or (b) you’re a tankie, believing that in any list of big bad things, those associated with enemies or rivals of the USA, if mentioned at all, must be heavily outnumbered by those associated with the USA and its allies – and that any writer failing this test is a lackey of the CIA.

  47. silvrhalide says

    @40 Try Stand or Fall by The Fixx
    Crying parents tell their children
    If you survive don’t do as we did
    A son exclaims there’ll be nothing to do to
    Her daughter says she’ll be dead with you

    While foreign affairs are screwing rotten,
    Line morale has hit rock bottom

    Dying embers stand forgotten
    Talks of peace were being trodden

    Stand or fall, state your peace tonight
    Stand or fall, state your peace tonight

    Is this the value of our existence
    Should we proclaim with such persistence
    Our destiny relies on conscience
    Red or blue, what’s the difference

    Stand or fall, state your peace tonight
    Stand or fall, state your peace tonight
    It’s the Euro theatre
    It’s the Euro theatre
    It’s the Euro theatre

    An empty face reflects extinction
    Ugly scars divide the nation
    Desecrate the population
    There will be no exhaultation

    Stand or fall, state your peace tonight
    Stand or fall, state your peace tonight
    It’s the Euro theatre
    It’s the Euro theatre
    It’s the Euro theatre

    Stand or fall
    Stand or fall
    Stand or fall
    Stand or fall

  48. silvrhalide says

    @25 HG Wells clearly painted the Eloi as the rightful inheritors of the earth with the Morlocks as their predatory and subhuman kin. And Weena was undeniably the Beatrice figure in the time traveler’s sojourn through sci-fi purgatory. Although it’s certainly interesting to note that both the Morlocks and the Eloi ultimately descend into HG Wells’ “fitfully flopping football object” at the end of the world. But it’s equally undeniable that the Eloi and the Morlocks are really racially coded, not just class coded. Morlocks preying on the flower of white upper class humanity that is Weena? Come on. There a lot of not terribly well hidden “nonwhite men are coming to rape and murder our pure white women” not-so-sub subtext going on there. Yeah, it’s nice that he later modified his beliefs for the slightly better (unlike HP Lovecraft) but I also wonder how much of that was due to the Nazi beliefs falling out of fashion, given that he died shortly after the end of WWII.

    It’s interesting in the sense that HG Wells was born a member of the “downstairs” class but still idolized the “upstairs” class. Kind of offers some insight into how the MAGA mindset operates.

  49. silvrhalide says

    @ 56 It aired the same night on PBS.

    @23 Nice! I particularly like the incoming tide part.

    @20

    President Putin has managed to take a disaster called Russia and raise it up to the point that the CIA,—the CIA!—ranks it as No. 4 in PPP GDP. Life expectancy has improved. Overall living standards have improved.

    Sure… as long as you aren’t standing in front of an open window or conscripted for the Russian military. Just ignore any premature deaths from political dissidents, like Navalny.

    President Xi has managed to (almost?) completele eradicate abject poverty in the People’s Republic of China; not poverty but extreme poverty and China now has the world,”s highest PPP GDP

    Maybe if you’re Han Chinese and a party loyalist. The Uighyrs, Tibetans, Nepalese, Manchurians… they don’t seem to be doing nearly as well. Things that the Taiwanese have to look forward to–not living in extreme poverty. (Or maybe just not living, period.) Hong Kong doesn’t seem super happy with the way things are going either. And there are entire Nepalese villages where all the adult men have only one kidney, because they sold the other one for money to live on. But hey, they’re not in extreme poverty! They sold a kidney to avoid it!

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8914735/

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/in-nepals-kidney-valley-poverty-drives-an-illegal-market-for-human-organs

    What does fascist flavored Kool Aid taste like, exactly? Asking for a friend.

Leave a Reply