Trump asks not how he can serve his country, but how his country can serve him.
F.O.says
“Powerful egomaniac asked to give up power, temper his ego, and submit to justice.”
Let’s have rainbows and bunnies since we’re here.
Shrug
drewsays
“Pathological lying sociopath” could be either of them, really. Those seem to be qualifications for office.
robrosays
Great points, PZ. I understand from several sources, including Richardson, that Biden wasn’t all bad, and the next day, gave a really strong speech.
As for the NYT call to Biden to withdraw, my response was to paraphrase a somewhat notorious line from the 1960s, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they.”
John Moralessays
robro, ahem. “Joe must go” is not just by NYT.
(Look at the sidebar on this blog)
marnersays
I see it didn’t take you long to fall back in line.
nomdeplumesays
The debate didn’t alter the fact that Trump is the last person who should be president of anything.
bcw bcwsays
Biden did make a mistake in that he has always been a crappy debater. However to run the country you don’t need to be a good speech guy, you need to understand the way government works and how to use power. He does both.
There is a real problem that the NY Times and other media that has always played the grass is greener card of pitting Biden against an imaginary ideal candidate has succeed in framing the issue as some kind of stamina contest while excusing and concealing Trumps obvious mental deficits.
John Moralessays
bcw bcw, bad mistake. Over-confidence, needless risk. Bad judgement. A gamble that did not pay off.
The 2024 presidential race took a sharp turn Wednesday when both major candidates quickly agreed to two televised debates — the first of which will happen next month.
President Biden and former President Trump will take part in a CNN debate on June 27 in Atlanta. They will clash again on Sept. 10, at a location yet to be determined, in an ABC News event.
The deal was struck with unusual speed after Biden posted a social media video Wednesday morning goading Trump to “make my day” by accepting a debate. “I hear you’re free on Wednesdays,” Biden added — a reference to the schedule of the former president’s criminal trial in New York.
Trump accepted almost immediately. Trump also took to social media to call Biden “the WORST debater I have ever faced,” claiming he “can’t put two sentences together.”
”The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that
he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying
sociopath.”
The last few months suggest strongly that the Supreme Court is running the country, with Republicans in the House second in command, and the last few years suggest that Biden is perfectly content to let them, because it fulfills all the dreams he had when he was in Congress which he has had to pretend to disavow since 2008 (banning abortion, destroying regulation, increasing privileges for the rich, punishing black people, etc.). He can even sundown on camera and the partisans will straight up go into denial about it — nice work if you can get it.
Also good to know that participating in genocide (we now have video from multiple sources showing US troops actively participating in Israeli operations, which means Biden must have given the okay for that, not just funding and weaponry, which was already bad enough) is not considered to be a problem. In the “who is behaving more like Hitler” examination, Trump may have won the speech evaluation so far, but Biden is hands-down leading on the practical. And it’s illuminating to see so many people care more about the former than the latter.
John Moralessays
The last few months suggest strongly that the Supreme Court is running the country
Not even slightly.
What a stupid thing to claim!
Also good to know that participating in genocide (we now have video from multiple sources showing US troops actively participating in Israeli operations, which means Biden must have given the okay for that, not just funding and weaponry, which was already bad enough) is not considered to be a problem.
You know that, do you? Heh.
In the “who is behaving more like Hitler” examination, Trump may have won the speech evaluation so far, but Biden is hands-down leading on the practical.
—
You amuse me greatly, Vicar.
So… here’s something you should realise: whoever gets most votes will be president.
Specifically, however many votes Trump receives, that number will be compared with how many votes the other candidate receives. The other candidate is Biden.
It follows that, each time some stupid person does not vote for Biden due to the sort of stupidities you profess, Trump gains one net vote.
—
I do remember when you explicitly endorsed Trump, O Vicarish person.
(These days, you are more coy, and more consistent in avoiding tacit endorsement, in your clumsy way)
Um, only one of them is President.
(Hard to be a practical president when one is not president, no?)
John Moralessays
Oops, tiny little edit box, mistake.
Let’s try that again, eh?
So, Vicarish type of person:
The last few months suggest strongly that the Supreme Court is running the country
Not even slightly.
What a stupid thing to claim!
Also good to know that participating in genocide (we now have video from multiple sources showing US troops actively participating in Israeli operations, which means Biden must have given the okay for that, not just funding and weaponry, which was already bad enough) is not considered to be a problem.
You know that, do you? Heh.
In the “who is behaving more like Hitler” examination, Trump may have won the speech evaluation so far, but Biden is hands-down leading on the practical.
Um, only one of them is President.
(Hard to be a practical president when one is not president, no?)
—
You amuse me greatly, Vicar.
So… here’s something you should realise: whoever gets most votes will be president.
Specifically, however many votes Trump receives, that number will be compared with how many votes the other candidate receives. The other candidate is Biden.
It follows that, each time some stupid person does not vote for Biden due to the sort of stupidities you profess, Trump gains one net vote.
—
I do remember when you explicitly endorsed Trump, O Vicarish person.
(These days, you are more coy, and more consistent in avoiding tacit endorsement, in your clumsy way)
John Moralessays
Come on Vicar, come clean.
You’d rather Trump than Biden were elected, no?
(Were it otherwise, you’d be encouraging people to vote for Biden, rather than discouraging them)
bcw bcwsays
Vicar really is campaigning to get Trump elected, whether deliberately or by self-deception.
Biden is still an old-time Democrat, still thinking of Israel as the underdog hero of fifty years ago. Alternatively he could just have been aware that he could face the kind of organized backlash from Zionists that cost the incumbent Bowman the primary here in NY State. Israel could get by with a more critical US government but if you want genocide, just let Trump win and have him support Russia’s war on Ukraine.
You could say the Supreme Court is trying to set itself up to run the country with a lot of its rulings but again, there is every evidence Biden is opposed to that in a way Trump is not.
cheerfulcharliesays
Trump Campaign jingle.
Rapey rapey rapey rape,
Grab them by the pussy!
Vote for Donald Trump,
A vote you can be proud of!
bravussays
I very much do not want Trump to be president.
But your characterization of ‘one man one vote’ in the US is a fair way off reality.
Remember the electoral college?
Trump was elected with 3 million fewer votes than his opponent the first time around.
The American electoral system is profoundly broken.
I think for many people that does tend to mean having to hold their noses and vote for Biden.
But they don’t have to like it and they don’t have to praise Biden, or refrain from criticizing him where he deserves it.
John Moralessays
<
blockquote>Remember the
?
The true Electors. All 538 of them, for the entirety of the country.
I think for many people that does tend to mean having to hold their noses and vote for Biden.
But they don’t have to like it and they don’t have to praise Biden, or refrain from criticizing him where he deserves it.
I’m pretty sure that claiming Biden should step aside now and voting for Biden when the moment comes are not mutually-exclusive.
Whether it’s helpful to his odds of being re-elected, well…
John Moralessays
[Um. Sorry, clunky keyboard and careless inattention. The keyboard, I can replace :|]
“Remember the electoral college?”
starskepticsays
That quote attributed to Heather Cox Richardson was actually by Monique Pressley.
Sure, Drew, ‘cuz no one can tell Biden apart from Trump, amirite?
StevoRsays
Yes! Absolutely. I one hundred percent approve of this opinion too. Thanks for this PZ. Well put Heather Cox Richardson and / or Monique Pressley, well put.
starskepticsays
About the effect of tonight’s events, former Republican operative Stuart Stevens warned: “Don’t day trade politics. It’s a sucker’s game. A guy from Queens out on bail bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, said in public he didn’t have sex with a porn star, defended tax cuts for billionaires, defended Jan. 6th. and called America the worst country in the world. That guy isn’t going to win this race.”
starskepticsays
Here’s the quote on X:
MoniquePressley/status/1806527221881847898
StevoRsays
@ 19. starskeptic : Okay, thanks. Do you have a cite for that please?
@16. bravus : Exactly. The EC is an utter abomination and an insult to Democracy. It needs to be abolished pronto and Idon’t know why the blue states allow it and don’t take stronger action against it. As this article notes :
Each vote cast in Wyoming is worth 3.6 as much as the same vote cast in California. How can that be, you might ask? It’s easy to see, when you do the math. Although Wyoming had a population in the last census of only 563,767, it gets 3 votes in the Electoral College based on its two Senators and one Congressman. California has 55 electoral votes. That sounds like a lot more, but it isn’t when you consider the size of the state. The population of California in the last census was 37,254,503, and that means that the electoral votes per capita in California are a lot less. To put it another way, the three electors in Wyoming represent an average of 187,923 residents each. The 55 electors in California represent an average of 677,355 each, and that’s a disparity of 3.6 to 1.
If the USA does get its long awaited next Civil War as it seems scarily plausible and the Blue States win, the EC should be the first thing to go – and this time the Slaver white supremacist Christianist states should NOT be allowed to get away so easily.
@ robro : “As for the NYT call to Biden to withdraw, my response was to paraphrase a somewhat notorious line from the 1960s, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they.”
@6.marner : “I see it didn’t take you long to fall back in line.”
Do you think Trump should become POTUS? Unfortunately the USoA has a horrible binary system where the election this year is between Biden or Trump. One of those two will become President. Who do you want it to be? Wht willthe consequences of theuir respective presidencies be?
@10. Vicar : “Also good to know that participating in genocide (we now have video from multiple sources showing US troops actively participating in Israeli operations, which means Biden must have given the okay for that, not just funding and weaponry, which was already bad enough) is not considered to be a problem.”
Really? Citations and evidence needed. Assertion without evidence provided there. Also you did hear Trump say that Israel should “finish the job” right? Oh and dismiss the prospect of a Palestinian state with “we’ll see” and, oh yes, also use the very word Palestinian as a slur right? Of course with Trump in charge we’ll have Ukraine genocided by Putin with Trump’s fawning approval as well as the Palestinians and you know Netanyahu, Gvir, Smotrich and co would far rather Trump than Biden don’t you?
hile they may not dare to believe just yet, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are pinning their hopes on a surprise. On November 5, 2024, at the end of the US presidential election, they hope to celebrate the victory of Donald Trump. The two leaders know all too well who they would vote for, if they could.
..(snip)…
The Russian president has a friend in Trump, a thwarted autocrat. Openly jealous, the Florida golfer has already expressed his admiration for Putin’s kind of leadership. Separately, at the head of a right-wing majority, the Israeli prime minister is betting on Trump, who from 2016 to 2020 was the most anti-Palestinian president ever to occupy the White House.
@23. starskeptic : Ah, thanks. That crossed with me writing my one.
John Moralessays
StevoR, are you intendedly being rhetorical?
As per Wikipedia:
“The Electoral College was officially selected as the means of electing president towards the end of the Constitutional Convention due to pressure from slave states wanting to increase their voting power (since they could count slaves as 3/5 of a person when allocating electors) and by small states who increased their power due to the minimum of three electors per state.[32] Some scholars provide arguments demonstrating this interpretation is a myth.[33] The compromise was reached after other proposals, including to get a direct election for president (as proposed by Hamilton among others), failed to get traction among slave states.[32] Levitsky and Ziblatt describe it as “not a product of constitutional theory or farsighted design. Rather, it was adopted by default, after all other alternatives had been rejected.”[32]”
John Moralessays
PS AKA historical contingency and institutional inertia, of course.
(The USAnian system is intendedly set up so that it’s quite difficult to alter substantially)
John Moralessays
[meta]
Unfortunately the USoA has a horrible binary system where the election this year is between Biden or Trump.
(sigh)
Unfortunately Australia has a horrible binary system where the election every fucking single year ever is between Labor or the Coalition.
While I agree that Biden is better for this country I feel this is just denial. Lots of people in the days after this debate are suddenly backtracking on their previous claims and going full cope mode. That helps nobody and will just result in Trump winning. You guys do this nearly every time.
fishysays
The debate needed an audience. Trump feeds off adoration and Biden loves people.
Admonishing the audience would also give the moderators something to do.
cheerfulcharliesays
Biden is a lessor of two evils. Far lessor of an evil than the wretched Trump. Register to vote and get out there and vote and pay attention to the down ballot races.
And now, about 2028. How do good Democratic Party Americas find a truly excellent candidate for president rather than sitting back and gripping about who manages to become the front runner? How do we work this thing?
StevoRsays
Latest news is that Biden is thinking about what to do and whether to step aside apparently. Donors have been tlaking and asking jill to tryand persuade hinm tostepside so we’re being told. Seen on TV news but not website yet.
.***
@30. rydan : “You guys do this nearly every time.
You guys here referring to who exactly?
StevoRsays
Latest – 2 hour sago – via BBC :
US President Joe Biden has assured Democrat donors that he can still win November’s presidential election against Donald Trump, after a poor debate performance fuelled concern about his candidacy.
The president, 81, attended a series of fundraising events in New York and New Jersey on Saturday, and defended his performance in CNN’s Presidential Debate.Speaking at one event, Mr Biden admitted, “I didn’t have a great night, but neither did Trump” on Thursday. “I promise you we’re going to win this election,” he said.
@The Vicar, you and people like you were warned before the 2016 election that if Trump wins over Clinton he will pack the Supreme Court with ultraconservatives to further undermine any resemblance to democracy in the USA. You foamed at the mouth at the mere mention of having to vote for Clinton to avoid it. Thus you got what you wanted and what you actively worked towards happening. I do not understand what you are complaining about. You wanted Trump to win over Clinton, you got it and all the consequences thereof.
birgerjohanssonsays
Unfortunately Britain has an archaic binary system where the choice is the tories or labour.
Fortunately, the tories will get dumped on July 4th, ending a horrible 14-year stretch of mismanagement.
Charly #35
And, as demonstrated by the current situation, Trump’s win did in fact not result in some counter-movement that resulted in more progressive democratic leaders.
StevoRsays
@ ^LykeX : Truth! Quite the reverese. The Overton window gets dragged way toteh reichwing & oh surprise, the winner is the reichwing. Who’d a-thunk it eh?
Aside from everyobody with half a brain.
anatsays
Biden is the best president this country has had in 50 years. Especially for his work on reducing the country’s greenhouse gas emissions, the strong economic recovery from the current pandemic, and his support for worker’s rights. I’ll happily vote for him with both hands.
Can you really call it a “Labour” party when all the socialists, the actual supporters of the working class, have been driven out or silenced by the neo-lib Bairists?
Akira, you mean the Corbynites? Corbyn and his ilk are pro-Brexit and pro-Russia, so if that’s what you identify as “socialist” then good riddance to bad, traitorous rubbish.
KGsays
AugustusVerger@42,
I personally know anti-Brexit and anti-Putin socialists driven out of Starmer’s “Labour Party”: he will get rid of anyone who disagrees with his sucking up to the corporate elite if he can, whatever their other views. There have been multiple Jews expelled for “antisemitism” – i.e., anti-Zionism.
KGsays
Of course Trump should abandon his campaign. Of course he would be much worse than Biden – his return to the White House would be catastrophic for the entire world. Which is why Biden should stand down, and let the Democratic Convention select someone who has a reasonable chance of winning in November.
KGsays
As for the opinion of Heather Cox Richardson or whoever, we don’t actually know how far Biden is running the country: he has a competent team around him – the government continued functioning when Reagan was well into dementia because he had competent (although vile) people to do it for him. What we know of Biden’s capabilities is what we can see in his public appearances – and on the evidence of the debate, they have declined alarmingly. His subsequent speech showed he can (or could on that occasion) still read off a teleprompter. But when he had to make coherent points in convincing fashion without that aid, he failed miserably. The excuses: “he had a cold”, “he’s a stammerer”, “Trump is a liar”, “the moderators didn’t fact-check live”, “anyone can have a bad day”, are risible.
Tethyssays
Biden IS the candidate with a “ reasonable chance of winning.” The parties do not choose candidates, they merely endorse the candidate who wins in the state primaries.
It’s far too late in the election season for anyone but Biden to be the Democratic candidate.
Since he is in fact doing a great job of being POTUS, I fail to understand all this complaining about his age. He could have done better in the “debate”, but trying to engage meaningfully with a narcissist who’s merely flooding the airwaves with a firehose of lies isn’t going to happen.
Yep, he is old, and that’s why we have a VP and a cabinet and entire administration of Biden people that will carry on if he were to suddenly die or become incapacitated.
Yeah yeah, I know KG, you would like the conservatives to keep ruling or Reform UK to take over because then worker’s paradise or something.
Rob Grigjanissays
KG @45: What’s risible is the notion that the Democrats would admit that Biden is incompetent and somehow then have a better chance of winning the election. Who do you have in mind? Maybe I missed your suggestion.
I think my emphasis was all wrong. This is a better opinion.
Glad to hear you’ve received your talking points, PZ. The momentary disillusionment with Genocide Joe and his obvious cognitive decline was interesting to watch, but I figured it would be memory-holed and replaced with hard copium in weeks. I was wrong. It took a few hours.
Biden’s advisers and their associated propagandists don’t want anyone else to run because they would all get fired and replaced with new advisers. They have obvious conflicts of interest and they shouldn’t be taken seriously.
John Moralessays
Behold the inanity:
“[X’s] advisers and their associated propagandists don’t want anyone else to run because they would all get fired and replaced with new advisers.”
That could be said of any incumbent candidate ever.
Also about Trump, who is not incumbent.
Genocide Joe
<snicker>
Dark Brandon.
(Did you intend that trite generality to be a cluey observation? Heh)
beholdersays
@51
“Genocide Joe”
<snicker>
Our active participation in a genocide in the Gaza strip has been memory-holed. No surprise there.
“[X’s] advisers and their associated propagandists don’t want anyone else to run because they would all get fired and replaced with new advisers.”
That could be said of any incumbent candidate ever.
Indeed, which is why it’s a spectacularly bad idea to value the opinion of a campaign adviser on who is the “best” candidate or who is the “most serious”, “electable”, “reasonable”, etc. candidate. Another candidate’s campaign team would clean house. Their job depends on them being able to flat-out lie in response to those questions.
John Moralessays
Our active participation in a genocide in the Gaza strip has been memory-holed. No surprise there.
What an idiotic claim.
Aiding Israel is exactly what every single USA administration ever has done since the 1950s.
It would be worse under Trump, obviously, whose record of stroking Israel is much more egregious.
Indeed, which is why it’s a spectacularly bad idea to value the opinion of a campaign adviser on who is the “best” candidate or who is the “most serious”, “electable”, “reasonable”, etc. candidate. Another candidate’s campaign team would clean house. Their job depends on them being able to flat-out lie in response to those questions.
<smirk>
I noted it could be said, not that it would perforce be true.
Unfortunately Australia has a horrible binary system where the election every fucking single year ever is between Labor or the Coalition.
What are you blithering about? We have plenty of independents, Greens, even One Nation (spit).
microraptorsays
KG @45:
As for the opinion of Heather Cox Richardson or whoever, we don’t actually know how far Biden is running the country: he has a competent team around him
Yes, that’s how presidents run the country. That’s always been how presidents have run the country. That’s not a weakness, have a president who tried to micromanage would bring disaster.
microraptorsays
Also, I’d like to point out that in addition to the lack of a viable replacement for Biden (FFS, I’ve seen people toss Hillary Clinton’s name out as an alternative), in the event that one actually could be found they’d be starting their campaign a mere four months before the election with no money. That’s not a winning strategy.
Instead, maybe Biden should get Kamala Harris out front and center more and actually doing stuff to remind people that should Biden be unable to finish out another 4 years, there is someone who’ll be promoted up to take his place.
A half-measure that does nothing to address the problems of a genocidal military campaign and a border blockade? Sure.
I remember Trump throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd in Puerto Rico back in 2017. In essence the floating pier is the same idea. Its only utility seems to have been as an entry point for Israeli soldiers, with U.S. military assistance, during the Nuseirat massacre.
John Moralessays
You’re better at beholding than at understanding, beholder.
A half-measure that does nothing to address the problems of a genocidal military campaign and a border blockade? Sure.
Well, I can’t dispute your strangely anti-Biden perception of the reality of the situation, ridiculous as it is on its face and cherry-picked as you try to make it.
Here, this is what you call does nothing:
“As of June 2024, the pier has handled thousands of tons of food aid,[12] with Fogbow delivering over a thousand pallets of food.[13] According to the US Central Command as of June 24, 2024, more than 6206 tons of humanitarian aid had been delivered since May 17, 2024.[14]” (ibid.)
More to the point, I remember noting in the very earliest days of Israel’s response to the Hamas atrocity that, though it was a given (the always thingy part, remember?) that the USA would provide aid and bombs that Israel could drop on civilians and excuse them in international bodies and so forth, this particular administration was clearly going to act as an ameliorating influence on the total severity and intensity of Israel’s response.
What you spin as being genocidal entails trying to limit another’s genocidal agenda.
(Welcome to the world of realpolitik!)
I remember Trump throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd in Puerto Rico back in 2017. In essence the floating pier is the same idea.
In your worldview, thousands of tons of food is equivalent (in essence, of course!) to throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd.
Got it.
Its only utility seems to have been as an entry point for Israeli soldiers, with U.S. military assistance, during the Nuseirat massacre.
Which is to say, as far as you are concerned, nothing at all of those thousands of tons of food were eaten by Gazans.
Got it.
—
You do get that was but one example of USA humanitarian aid to Gaza (remember the food drops?).
“My commitment to Israel, I want to make clear again, is ironclad,” Biden said “The security of Israel is critical, and we’ll always make sure that Israel has what it needs to defend itself against Iran and the terrorists it supports.”
[…]
“This bill includes $1 billion for additional humanitarian aid in Gaza,” he said. “We’re going to immediately secure that aid and surge it … including food, medical supplies [and] clean water.”
anat I agree with your thoughts. he does push forward on those core ideas as best he can. Just how is he supposed to “push” the Israelis to do anything they have never been amenable to being told what to do
same goes for the republican dominated congress and corporate America. though Biden does know how to get things accomplished inside the government, he has done pretty well but does not know how to blow his own horn very well even. Same for the Democrats generally it is almost as they are trying to run away from their positions, principles and accomplishments like they are afraid of them at least the long time leaders seem to act that way though some of the newer politicians are a bit more strident and unafraid to appear “radical”
I think that the vicar thinks that the only way we can become a true liberal truly free state is through the gauntlet of absolute tyranny and the death camps of course we would have him to be our guide on the eventual reformation
John Moralessays
Well, let’s contemplate these paper towels.
No need for me to use orthographical indicators henceforth.
–begin extracts–
Q1: What are these packaged meals?
A1: The packaged meal, called a meal, ready-to-eat (MRE), was developed for military use. Each meal is wrapped in a plastic container and has a long shelf life, so it can be stored until needed. The meals weigh about half a pound and contain 1,250 calories. MREs come in 24 different menus but share the same basic structure: a main meal, crackers with a spread, a fruit, a bakery item, and an accessory package with a spoon, napkin, coffee, salt, pepper, and toilet paper—for example, MRE 43/Menu 2: beef shredded in barbecue sauce, fruit puree squeeze, jalapeño cheddar cheese spread, tortillas, a cinnamon bun, and chocolate hazelnut protein drink powder. Each provides a balanced diet. There is a pork-free menu suitable for Muslim populations. The United States has large amounts in storage as part of its wartime stocks.
The United States has another meal, a humanitarian daily ration, specifically designed to feed malnourished civilian populations. Like MREs, these are prepackaged and easily transportable, though with nearly twice the calories and twice the weight. Apparently, the United States used MREs because they are more plentiful and readily available. In the future, the United States might switch to these specifically designed packages.
Q2: How are the meals being delivered?
A2:MREs come in cases of 12, which can be packaged for delivery on a pallet of 48 cases. That pallet contains 576 individual meals and weighs about 1,100 lbs. The pallets of MREs have been delivered by parachute from C-130 tactical cargo aircraft.
Q5: Are there easier ways to deliver supplies by air?
A5: Unfortunately, this is probably the best way forward if air delivery is the only option. The United States might use its larger cargo aircraft, the C-17, which can accommodate 18 military standard pallets or 2.5 to 3 times what a C-130 can carry. This would reduce the number of daily aircraft sorties to about 90. That is still a lot of aircraft sorties to squeeze out of an active duty fleet of 146. The number of MREs required would not change, nor would the daily need for 5,700 parachutes.
The air delivery challenge would be much easier if the aircraft could land on an airfield. Not only would the offload be easier to control, but aircraft could be loaded more heavily. However, the only airfield in Gaza closed 20 years ago. The Berlin airlift had an important advantage in this regard: there were three functioning airports in West Berlin for most of the operation.
(Truly charitable, is he, for certain negative values of ‘charitable’)
KGsays
Yeah yeah, I know KG, you would like the conservatives to keep ruling or Reform UK to take over because then worker’s paradise or something. – AugustusVerger@43
The typical Starmeroid lie. It’s not just dishonest, it’s stupid and it’s hackneyed – so exactly what I’d expect from you. You haven’t of course disputed what I said @42, because you know it’s true. It would be too much to expect you to argue honestly, but at least try to be a little less predictable.
KGsays
Sorry, AugustusVerger’s latest lie was @47, not @43.
KGsays
Tethys@46
The parties do not choose candidates, they merely endorse the candidate who wins in the state primaries.
It’s far too late in the election season for anyone but Biden to be the Democratic candidate.
Oh right, so if Biden dropped dead there would be no Democratic candidate?
He could have done better in the “debate”, but trying to engage meaningfully with a narcissist who’s merely flooding the airwaves with a firehose of lies isn’t going to happen. – Tethys@46
It was his campaign which wanted this debate. What Biden needed to do at a minimum was to show that he’s all there mentally – and he failed abjectly in this simple task. WTF does “we beat Medicare” mean? Other than that, he should have had a handful of simple answers to obvious questions, a handful of simple talking points he was going to get in whatever questions were asked, and have been ready to call out Trump’s most egregious and predictable lies, such as “post-birth abortion”, huge numbers of people being murdered by immigrants, etc. There’s now apparently an attempt to blame his advisers for “over-preparing” him, which is crap. He’s a highly experienced politician; if he was up to the task of running for President in an absolutely crucial election, he would have been in charge of his own preparation.
KGsays
Rob Grigjanis@48, anat@49,
People answering polls about hypothetical situations tell us very little. People telling pollsters Biden is too old – and having that opinion amply confirmed by the debate – tell us a lot more. The obvious alternative is Harris, and yes, I know her approval ratings are about the same as Biden’s, but I don’t think that tells us much since she’s inevitably been in Biden’s shadow. If Biden were to drop out now on health grounds, there would be time before the Democratic Convention for her and other possible candidates to put their cases to the public and the delegates. There’s no guarantee of a winning candidate emerging, but how on earth are the Democrats going to protect Biden from making a similar spectacle of himself over the next four months? Avoid any situation where he has to speak without a teleprompter? Because this is only the most egregious example of his “senior moments”. Speaking as though long-dead leaders such as Mitterand and Kohl were still in power was very worrying in itself – that’s exactly the sort of mental reversion to long-past situations that is characteristic of dementia.
KGsays
Biden’s advisers and their associated propagandists don’t want anyone else to run because they would all get fired and replaced with new advisers. They have obvious conflicts of interest and they shouldn’t be taken seriously. – beholder@50
Now that’s a real surprise – beholder making a good point.
KGsays
Yes, that’s how presidents run the country. That’s always been how presidents have run the country. That’s not a weakness, have a president who tried to micromanage would bring disaster. – microraptor@56
Jesus wept, I know that. I was making the point that the fact the government has continued to run smoothly does not imply that Biden remains mentally competent. I even gave another example to reinforce the point. But there are still things the President has to do personally, and running for re-election is one of them. Thursday night showed that Biden cannot do that with even minimal competence.
KGsays
Instead, maybe Biden should get Kamala Harris out front and center more and actually doing stuff to remind people that should Biden be unable to finish out another 4 years, there is someone who’ll be promoted up to take his place. – microraptor@57
If Biden was capable of running a re-election campaign, he’d have done that eighteen months ago.
KGsays
According to the US Central Command as of June 24, 2024, more than 6206 tons of humanitarian aid had been delivered since May 17, 2024. – John Morales@59
The population of Gaza is approximately 2 million. So that’s about 7 lbs of food per person over a month, assuming all the aid was food, and was all delivered successfully. I invite you to try living on 7 lbs of food for a month, John. As for the rest of your apologia, Biden could have halted the genocide any time he wanted* by cutting off arms delieveries. In fact, he had (and has) a legal obligation to do so, since US law forbids arming any state which obstructs the delivery of US humanitarian aid, as Israel has blatantly been doing throughout.
*Assuming it’s still him making the deciaions.
KGsays
Hey, remember how Trump treated Ukraine? – John Morales@59
Hey, John Morales resorting to whataboutery! Remember, John, it’s pretty much always a sign that you’re defending the indefensible.
KGsays
Just how is he supposed to “push” the Israelis to do anything they have never been amenable to being told what to do – unclefrogy@60
Cut off arms sales, as he is legally obliged to do.
John Moralessays
KG, too shallow was your reading.
Hey, John Morales resorting to whataboutery!
It’s not that, but it is a rhetorical strategy; the poster using the ‘nym ‘beholder’ wants to drive the conversation to how bad Biden is, I am retaliating with a bespoke technique.
Be aware that I am sustaining previous interactions where I have told that poster and also the ‘vicar’ poster that, in whatever sense they think Biden is bad, that Trump is worse. That was not an observation out of the blue, in short, and it was not context-free.
So. Not whataboutery, but other-guy-worsery. :)
Remember, John, it’s pretty much always a sign that you’re defending the indefensible.
So, you think this is an indefensible claim: “It would be worse under Trump, obviously, whose record of stroking Israel is much more egregious.”
The point I was sustaining via what you quoted, addressed to the very same person.
Perhaps re-read the actual dialogue, and then quote me supposedly defending the indefensible.
John Moralessays
Or; however bad Biden has been for the USA’s international relations, Trump was (and will be) worse.
Imagine being Ukranian right now, worrying about Trump becoming POTUS again.
(Not the most pleasant thought, is it?)
John Moralessays
mmm. I’m becoming irritated.
The population of Gaza is approximately 2 million. So that’s about 7 lbs of food per person over a month, assuming all the aid was food, and was all delivered successfully. I invite you to try living on 7 lbs of food for a month, John.
Way to fucking miss the entire point.
You do get that thousands of tonnes of food represented, well, fucking FOOD and WATER and TREATS and TOILET PAPER and so forth. The feeble treats for the lucky few.
(BTW, that was the air drops, not the floating dock. And not all the other forms of aid.
—
I mean, yes. Not enough humanitarian aid.
Did you even read the conversation?
The claim was that this was exactly the same (in essence! Like transubstation, no?) as (and I quote) “Trump throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd in Puerto Rico back in 2017”.
Exactly the same, right?
Here, for you: “This bill includes $1 billion for additional humanitarian aid in Gaza,” he said. “We’re going to immediately secure that aid and surge it … including food, medical supplies [and] clean water.”
Must be because of his feebleness that Biden is so shit at genocide, what with all the humanitarian aid and pauses in weapons delivery and pressure on Israel.
—
But fine.
Me, were I malnourished and hungry (or my loved ones), I would sure appreciate getting something.
Let’s do a bit of computation, shall we?
“over a thousand pallets of food” (1000+ pallets)
“MREs come in cases of 12, which can be packaged for delivery on a pallet of 48 cases. That pallet contains 576 individual meals and weighs about 1,100 lbs”
So.
1000+ × 576 = 576,000+ meals.
One meal for 576,000 people, 10 for 57,600 people, etc.
And those meals keep without special refrigeration etc.
Actually, the military ones come with self-heating rations, water purification tablets, and with toilet paper — which, given Israel has pretty much destroyed the infrastructure so there’s no power, water or sewage, is probably appreciated even only 576,000 times.
Sneering at that humanitarian act is, well, I reckon pretty fucking boorish.
Might be not enough, sure doesn’t solve the problem, sure.
It’s only more than nothing.
But to castigate Biden as if he personally were genocidal or his administration any more so than any previous one is just plain counterfactual.
John Moralessays
Whataboutery, eh? Paper towels are just like over a billion dollars of humanitarian aid.
I can beat that: other-guy-worsery™!
Thesis: Trump is worse than Biden, so it would be better if Trump withdrew than the converse.
(PZ approves of this opinion)
Let’s adduce some evidence regarding Israel, then.
A pullquote for the flavour of it (emphasis in original):
Trump has unwaveringly supported Israel and its government. When in office, he went further than other presidents by moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and endorsing the Golan Heights, land Israel seized from Syria, as Israeli territory.
Experts in U.S. policy in the Middle East said Trump showed strong support for Israel like presidents past, but still departed from the norm during his term.
“Not rhetorically, but in terms of really sidelining the Palestinians,” said Nadav Shelef, a political science and Israeli studies professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Trump took a pro- Israeli, right-wing position that effectively gave Israel everything it wanted without giving anything to the Palestinians.”
Excluding the Palestinians, Shelef said, “tilted the bargaining much more heavily toward Israel.”
In 2018, Trump kept his campaign promise and moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, officially recognizing the city as Israel’s capital. The move, which sparked criticism, broke with decades of U.S. policy that held that Israel’s capital would be officially determined once a final peace agreement was made. Palestinians believe that parts of Jerusalem are their capital.
John Moralessays
Well, one more quotation (emphasis in original) out of many others:
Trump has supported Israel unconditionally and says he wants it to get the war “over with,” without mentioning a cease-fire or Palestinian casualties.
Trump’s limited comments about the Israel-Gaza war have offered near-absolute support for Israel.
Trump recently said Israel needs to wrap up the fighting because it was “losing the PR war.” He hasn’t mentioned or condemned the Palestinian casualties, and hasn’t called for a cease-fire.
In April, conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt asked Trump whether he was still “100% with Israel” and how he’d advise Netanyahu.
“You’ve got to get it over with, and you have to get back to normalcy,” Trump said.
“And I’m not sure that I’m loving the way they’re doing it, because you’ve got to have victory. You have to have a victory, and it’s taking a long time.” Trump said that Israel must “finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
John Moralessays
Anyway, KG. A bit disappointed you don’t get the tactic of always, persistently bashing Biden whenever USA politics or Trump or Biden comes up. It’s not exactly sophisticated.
Maybe you were too perfunctory, maybe you really don’t see it. Ah well.
StevoRsays
@ ^ John Morales & @ KG – Reminder :
Trump in the debate said Israel “should finish the job” and he used palestinian as a slur saying Biden was like a Palestinian but a bad weak one..Does he get called Genocide Donald? He deserves to be.
Trump would also see genocide against Ukraine as well as Gaza. Biden was attacked too for allowing the “Palestinian rioting” at one point if memory serves which I think refers to Palestinian protests against their being genocided. The other Repug side of Politics includes the Christain Zionists, Christian Supremcists and blatant Islamophobes who hate the Muslim world generally and would support Netanyahu much more than Biden does.
Hemidactylussays
John Morales @53
Yeah, that checks out. The US was definitely one of the parties to the secretive Sevres Protocol as we were hoping to get back at Nasser alongside Britain and France using Israel as a willing pawn. And we helped their nuclear program soon after. It wasn’t US and the USSR who got hot and bothered over the Suez Crisis. And we supplied Mirage and Mystère jets used against the USS Liberty.
Sarcasm duly noted!
KGsays
John Morales, StevoR,
You’re evidently both unable to read. Of course Trump would be worse. That’s why Biden needs to withdraw, because the debate showed he is very unlikely to win.
John,
The indefensible you’re defending is the ludicrous gesture politics of the airdrops and floating dock, when Biden could end the genocide within weeks by cuttting off arms supplies and diplomatic support. It doesn’t matter a shit whether Biden is “personally genocidal”, because he’s enabling genocide, and if he were mentally competent, should be on trial for doing so.
John Moralessays
KG, fine, providing well over a billion dollars in aid is a ludicrous gesture, far as you are concerned.
Those lucky few who get the aid, I am 100% sure they don’t think it’s a ludicrous gesture.
The indefensible you’re defending is the ludicrous gesture politics of the airdrops and floating dock, when Biden could end the genocide within weeks by cuttting off arms supplies and diplomatic support.
And also $1B in aid, once Trump’s impediment of it was overcome, and all the other humanitarian aid via various other bodies, such as UNRWA.
—
You know what I think is ludicrous?
Not giving any credit whatsoever to Biden for that humanitarian aid.
In fact — the opposite.
Castigating Biden for approving all that humanitarian aid. Nice.
Far as you’re concerned, providing that aid is just another reason to bash him.
Better by far he’d not provided any aid, so that people couldn’t castigate him for it being useless and ludicrous, right?
Bah.
Could I possibly make it any clearer, I would.
[…] when Biden could end the genocide within weeks by cuttting off arms supplies and diplomatic support
Such naivete! Presidents aren’t Kings, you know.
They don’t get to rule by diktat.
Even if he wanted to do that, he couldn’t.
That’s not how it works.
I wonder how deep your rabbit-hole goes.
Hey, remember the recent mass attack on Israel?
Are you aware of what proportion of those missiles and drones was shot down by the USA?
Is that a case of genocidal warmongering, in your estimation?
After all, those weren’t just US weapons that were used in support of Israel, but military actions by US forces.
—
BTW — have you any idea of how closely integrated USA and Israel are in certain military technologies, for example? What about the treaties and undertakings the USA has taken? etc etc.
(It’s not just about military and financial aid, you know.
The USA is many things, but altruistic is low on the list)
(You think that’s not on topic?)
—
It doesn’t matter a shit whether Biden is “personally genocidal”, because he’s enabling genocide, and if he were mentally competent, should be on trial for doing so.
It matters to me, since I’ve been pushing on this Genocide Joe narrative that you clearly endorse.
That nickname comes across as implying “personally genocidal”, to me and to most people, if not to you or to beholder.
And you know what? That last technique you essayed is the feeblest yet.
Let me try it:
It doesn’t matter a shit whether it matters a shit to you whether Biden is “personally genocidal”, either.
(So, it has come to this!)
John Moralessays
Ah well, going to bed soon, so a nightcap is in order.
Of course Trump would be worse. That’s why Biden needs to withdraw, because the debate showed he is very unlikely to win.
It is not I who apparently can’t read; cf. #76:
Thesis: Trump is worse than Biden, so it would be better if Trump withdrew than the converse.
(PZ approves of this opinion)
Right?
If Trump would be worse, as you O so emphatically assert, it follows that it would be better if Trump rather than Biden withdrew, since that would guarantee that Trump would not win, which is much better than the speculative likelihood of whoever replaces Biden were he to withdraw, which would not entail that equivalent guarantee.
(Of course, to meet your unspoken criterion, whoever it was should be better than Biden, or at least no worse, genocide-wise, no?)
(Heh)
KGsays
John Morales@82
Far as you’re concerned, providing that aid is just another reason to bash him.
Well it’s evidently served its purpose as far as you are concerned – to give racists and idiots a reason to ignore or downplay the simple fact that he is and has been since the start of the Israeli operation, enabling genocide. That’s what it’s about, and all it’s about, and you fall for it.
Even if he wanted to do that [halt arms supplies and diplomatic support], he couldn’t.
Yes, he could. In fact, as I’ve already pointed out, as far as arms supplies are concerned, he is legally obliged to do so. He could issue an executive order saying that as Israel is obstructing US humanitarian aid, no further weapons can be sent there, in line with US law. As for diplomatic support, he is in charge of what the US does and does not do at the UN, and in relations with foreign states, short of declaring war.
It doesn’t matter a shit whether it matters a shit to you whether Biden is “personally genocidal”, either.
You think it matters a shit to those being killed, maimed or losing their families or homes through the agency of American weapons whether he’s “personally genocidal”? You’re really beginning to disgust me. I said a few days ago that I didn’t dislike you, but you’re well on the way to changing that.
it follows that it would be better if Trump rather than Biden withdrew
Of course it would, you stupid arsehole, and nowhere have I said or implied otherwise. But we know he’s not going to. The question I’m addressing is whether there would be a better chance of keeping him out of power if Biden withdrew. That’s a matter of judgement, and I’m quite prepared to argue my case and listen to the opposing case. I’m not interested in your absurd quibbling.
Of course, to meet your unspoken criterion, whoever it was should be better than Biden, or at least no worse, genocide-wise, no?
Since my criterion is unspoken, how do you think you know what it is? There are multiple ways in which Trump would be worse than any conceivable Democratic alternative. I have actually made my criterion quite clear: which possible candidate has the best chance of keeping Trump out of power?
consciousness razorsays
I think we should be able to question the mental competence (and trial-worthiness) of public figures in general, including those in Cabinet positions, at the Pentagon, etc. I also think that full-grown mentally competent adults should be (will have already become?) used to it happening frequently by now, whether they like it or not.
anatsays
KG @66: The only alternative candidate with any legitimacy is Harris. She is also the only one who can legally access the donations given so far to the Biden-Harris campaign. Anyone else will be starting from zero. And Harris has the problem of dealing with a racist, misogynistic voting public. (The absolutely best scenario for Harris is Biden getting re-elected, being president for at least 2 more years, and then resigning shortly after January 20th 2027. Then Harris gets 2 years to prove herself as president and the possibility to run twice, assuming she gets elected on her own merits the first time.) Other candidates have the additional problem of name recognition.
KGsays
anat@86,
With regard to Harris, the question is how many would vote for Biden-Harris but not for Harris-Whoever, and how many for Harris-Whoever but not for Biden-Harris. There will be some fairly large proportion who would vote for any Democrat over Trump, and another who would vote for Trump over any Democrat. My hunch is that there are not many who would switch directly between Trump and the Democratic ticket either way if the change were made; we’re talking mostly about people who would not vote, or would vote third party, if the ticket is one of these possibilities, but would vote for the ticket, or for Trump, if it’s the other. We know that Biden’s age and health are a very widespread concern, with a large proportion of Democrats and independents saying he should not be standing. The debate, and its aftermath, will have exacerbated that concern – and so will any future public “senior moments” Biden has – or any apparent attempt to coddle him. I don’t think there’s any real doubt the debate showed that he is suffering a significant degree of cognitive decline – none of the excuses made for him hold water. We also know Biden’s attitude towards the Gaza invasion has alienated a significant number of Black, young, andor progressive voters – Harris would have time to distance herself from that, although clearly that would have its own risks. On the other side, of course racism and misogyny are real factors, but serious racists or misogynists will likely not vote Biden-Harris because of the very real possibility (I’d even say likelihood, and so would many potential voters) that Harris would become President at some point during the term. We also know Obama won two presidential elections, and that Hilary Clinton won the popular vote – and would almost certainly have won the presidency were it not for Comey’s illegitimate interference. So I think those factors may be overstated.
John Moralessays
That’s what it’s about, and all it’s about, and you fall for it.
You imagine I fall for it; rather, I don’t just ignore it as if it were an irrelevance.
People who are even the tiniest bit analytic can see multiple aspects of a situation, rather than only the geopolitical ones. The side-effects, if you like.
So, yes, it’s a gesture, but it actually also helps people too. Not enough, but more than nothing.
To claim it’s only a gesture, to claim it’s nothing but a ludicrous gesture, that is just plain stupidity.
And, again for the last time: hungry people appreciate food. Weird, eh?
(Billion-dollar gestures!)
John Moralessays
KG:
Of course, to meet your unspoken criterion, whoever it was should be better than Biden, or at least no worse, genocide-wise, no?
Since my criterion is unspoken, how do you think you know what it is?
Fine; since you’ve disputed my claim, it is not the case that your position that Biden should be replaced includes the unspoken criterion that whoever it may be should be better than Biden, or at least no worse, genocide-wise.
So, without that criterion, it follows you have no objection to a replacement candidate who may be even more “genocidal” than Biden.
(Not personally, of course!)
I have actually made my criterion quite clear: which possible candidate has the best chance of keeping Trump out of power?
What a coincidence! The Democratic party has the very same criterion!
(Of course, it perhaps knows a tad more about the situation than you)
John Moralessays
Well, why not a trinity.
it follows that it would be better if Trump rather than Biden withdrew
Of course it would, you stupid arsehole, and nowhere have I said or implied otherwise.
Well, that’s the post subject. The topic at hand.
You know, the one about which we are supposedly commenting.
(“I think my emphasis was all wrong. This is a better opinion.”, quoth PZ)
(Genocidal, according to some. Not according to the aid recipients, of course)
John Moralessays
Ah, right. Sorry, KG.
Clearly, any US aid to Palestine since Biden was elected is (and I quote) “to give racists and idiots a reason to ignore or downplay the simple fact that he is and has been since the start of the Israeli operation, enabling genocide”.
In your estimation.
But then, you’re not hungry, are you? And your taps work, no? And you have electricity.
And hospitals that haven’t been destroyed. Oh, and when you shit, you can flush your loo, no?
Only a gesture, is humanitarian aid. For such as you.
Trump asks not how he can serve his country, but how his country can serve him.
“Powerful egomaniac asked to give up power, temper his ego, and submit to justice.”
Let’s have rainbows and bunnies since we’re here.
Shrug
“Pathological lying sociopath” could be either of them, really. Those seem to be qualifications for office.
Great points, PZ. I understand from several sources, including Richardson, that Biden wasn’t all bad, and the next day, gave a really strong speech.
As for the NYT call to Biden to withdraw, my response was to paraphrase a somewhat notorious line from the 1960s, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they.”
robro, ahem. “Joe must go” is not just by NYT.
(Look at the sidebar on this blog)
I see it didn’t take you long to fall back in line.
The debate didn’t alter the fact that Trump is the last person who should be president of anything.
Biden did make a mistake in that he has always been a crappy debater. However to run the country you don’t need to be a good speech guy, you need to understand the way government works and how to use power. He does both.
There is a real problem that the NY Times and other media that has always played the grass is greener card of pitting Biden against an imaginary ideal candidate has succeed in framing the issue as some kind of stamina contest while excusing and concealing Trumps obvious mental deficits.
bcw bcw, bad mistake. Over-confidence, needless risk. Bad judgement. A gamble that did not pay off.
cf. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4666626-biden-trump-why-debate-2024/
(by Niall Stanage – 05/16/24)
[my emphasis]
The last few months suggest strongly that the Supreme Court is running the country, with Republicans in the House second in command, and the last few years suggest that Biden is perfectly content to let them, because it fulfills all the dreams he had when he was in Congress which he has had to pretend to disavow since 2008 (banning abortion, destroying regulation, increasing privileges for the rich, punishing black people, etc.). He can even sundown on camera and the partisans will straight up go into denial about it — nice work if you can get it.
Also good to know that participating in genocide (we now have video from multiple sources showing US troops actively participating in Israeli operations, which means Biden must have given the okay for that, not just funding and weaponry, which was already bad enough) is not considered to be a problem. In the “who is behaving more like Hitler” examination, Trump may have won the speech evaluation so far, but Biden is hands-down leading on the practical. And it’s illuminating to see so many people care more about the former than the latter.
Not even slightly.
What a stupid thing to claim!
You know that, do you? Heh.
—
You amuse me greatly, Vicar.
So… here’s something you should realise: whoever gets most votes will be president.
Specifically, however many votes Trump receives, that number will be compared with how many votes the other candidate receives. The other candidate is Biden.
It follows that, each time some stupid person does not vote for Biden due to the sort of stupidities you profess, Trump gains one net vote.
—
I do remember when you explicitly endorsed Trump, O Vicarish person.
(These days, you are more coy, and more consistent in avoiding tacit endorsement, in your clumsy way)
Um, only one of them is President.
(Hard to be a practical president when one is not president, no?)
Oops, tiny little edit box, mistake.
Let’s try that again, eh?
So, Vicarish type of person:
Not even slightly.
What a stupid thing to claim!
You know that, do you? Heh.
Um, only one of them is President.
(Hard to be a practical president when one is not president, no?)
—
You amuse me greatly, Vicar.
So… here’s something you should realise: whoever gets most votes will be president.
Specifically, however many votes Trump receives, that number will be compared with how many votes the other candidate receives. The other candidate is Biden.
It follows that, each time some stupid person does not vote for Biden due to the sort of stupidities you profess, Trump gains one net vote.
—
I do remember when you explicitly endorsed Trump, O Vicarish person.
(These days, you are more coy, and more consistent in avoiding tacit endorsement, in your clumsy way)
Come on Vicar, come clean.
You’d rather Trump than Biden were elected, no?
(Were it otherwise, you’d be encouraging people to vote for Biden, rather than discouraging them)
Vicar really is campaigning to get Trump elected, whether deliberately or by self-deception.
Biden is still an old-time Democrat, still thinking of Israel as the underdog hero of fifty years ago. Alternatively he could just have been aware that he could face the kind of organized backlash from Zionists that cost the incumbent Bowman the primary here in NY State. Israel could get by with a more critical US government but if you want genocide, just let Trump win and have him support Russia’s war on Ukraine.
You could say the Supreme Court is trying to set itself up to run the country with a lot of its rulings but again, there is every evidence Biden is opposed to that in a way Trump is not.
Trump Campaign jingle.
Rapey rapey rapey rape,
Grab them by the pussy!
Vote for Donald Trump,
A vote you can be proud of!
I very much do not want Trump to be president.
But your characterization of ‘one man one vote’ in the US is a fair way off reality.
Remember the electoral college?
Trump was elected with 3 million fewer votes than his opponent the first time around.
The American electoral system is profoundly broken.
I think for many people that does tend to mean having to hold their noses and vote for Biden.
But they don’t have to like it and they don’t have to praise Biden, or refrain from criticizing him where he deserves it.
<
blockquote>Remember the
The true Electors. All 538 of them, for the entirety of the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College#/media/File:ElectoralCollege2024.svg
I’m pretty sure that claiming Biden should step aside now and voting for Biden when the moment comes are not mutually-exclusive.
Whether it’s helpful to his odds of being re-elected, well…
[Um. Sorry, clunky keyboard and careless inattention. The keyboard, I can replace :|]
“Remember the electoral college?”
That quote attributed to Heather Cox Richardson was actually by Monique Pressley.
Sure, Drew, ‘cuz no one can tell Biden apart from Trump, amirite?
Yes! Absolutely. I one hundred percent approve of this opinion too. Thanks for this PZ. Well put Heather Cox Richardson and / or Monique Pressley, well put.
About the effect of tonight’s events, former Republican operative Stuart Stevens warned: “Don’t day trade politics. It’s a sucker’s game. A guy from Queens out on bail bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, said in public he didn’t have sex with a porn star, defended tax cuts for billionaires, defended Jan. 6th. and called America the worst country in the world. That guy isn’t going to win this race.”
Here’s the quote on X:
MoniquePressley/status/1806527221881847898
@ 19. starskeptic : Okay, thanks. Do you have a cite for that please?
@16. bravus : Exactly. The EC is an utter abomination and an insult to Democracy. It needs to be abolished pronto and Idon’t know why the blue states allow it and don’t take stronger action against it. As this article notes :
Source : https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-time-to-end-the-electoral-college_b_12891764
If the USA does get its long awaited next Civil War as it seems scarily plausible and the Blue States win, the EC should be the first thing to go – and this time the Slaver white supremacist Christianist states should NOT be allowed to get away so easily.
@ robro : “As for the NYT call to Biden to withdraw, my response was to paraphrase a somewhat notorious line from the 1960s, “Well, they would, wouldn’t they.”
Mandy Rice Davies applies! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_he_would,_wouldn%27t_he%3F
@6.marner : “I see it didn’t take you long to fall back in line.”
Do you think Trump should become POTUS? Unfortunately the USoA has a horrible binary system where the election this year is between Biden or Trump. One of those two will become President. Who do you want it to be? Wht willthe consequences of theuir respective presidencies be?
@10. Vicar : “Also good to know that participating in genocide (we now have video from multiple sources showing US troops actively participating in Israeli operations, which means Biden must have given the okay for that, not just funding and weaponry, which was already bad enough) is not considered to be a problem.”
Really? Citations and evidence needed. Assertion without evidence provided there. Also you did hear Trump say that Israel should “finish the job” right? Oh and dismiss the prospect of a Palestinian state with “we’ll see” and, oh yes, also use the very word Palestinian as a slur right? Of course with Trump in charge we’ll have Ukraine genocided by Putin with Trump’s fawning approval as well as the Palestinians and you know Netanyahu, Gvir, Smotrich and co would far rather Trump than Biden don’t you?
Source : https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2023/12/07/putin-and-netanyahu-are-betting-on-the-trump-horse_6322482_23.html
@23. starskeptic : Ah, thanks. That crossed with me writing my one.
StevoR, are you intendedly being rhetorical?
As per Wikipedia:
“The Electoral College was officially selected as the means of electing president towards the end of the Constitutional Convention due to pressure from slave states wanting to increase their voting power (since they could count slaves as 3/5 of a person when allocating electors) and by small states who increased their power due to the minimum of three electors per state.[32] Some scholars provide arguments demonstrating this interpretation is a myth.[33] The compromise was reached after other proposals, including to get a direct election for president (as proposed by Hamilton among others), failed to get traction among slave states.[32] Levitsky and Ziblatt describe it as “not a product of constitutional theory or farsighted design. Rather, it was adopted by default, after all other alternatives had been rejected.”[32]”
PS AKA historical contingency and institutional inertia, of course.
(The USAnian system is intendedly set up so that it’s quite difficult to alter substantially)
[meta]
(sigh)
Unfortunately Australia has a horrible binary system where the election every fucking single year ever is between Labor or the Coalition.
Philadelphia Inquirer Editorial:
To serve his country, Donald Trump should leave the race
https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/editorials/first-presidential-debate-joe-biden-donald-trump-withdraw-20240629.html
While I agree that Biden is better for this country I feel this is just denial. Lots of people in the days after this debate are suddenly backtracking on their previous claims and going full cope mode. That helps nobody and will just result in Trump winning. You guys do this nearly every time.
The debate needed an audience. Trump feeds off adoration and Biden loves people.
Admonishing the audience would also give the moderators something to do.
Biden is a lessor of two evils. Far lessor of an evil than the wretched Trump. Register to vote and get out there and vote and pay attention to the down ballot races.
And now, about 2028. How do good Democratic Party Americas find a truly excellent candidate for president rather than sitting back and gripping about who manages to become the front runner? How do we work this thing?
Latest news is that Biden is thinking about what to do and whether to step aside apparently. Donors have been tlaking and asking jill to tryand persuade hinm tostepside so we’re being told. Seen on TV news but not website yet.
.***
@30. rydan : “You guys do this nearly every time.
You guys here referring to who exactly?
Latest – 2 hour sago – via BBC :
Source :https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv2gx7d0qwdo
@The Vicar, you and people like you were warned before the 2016 election that if Trump wins over Clinton he will pack the Supreme Court with ultraconservatives to further undermine any resemblance to democracy in the USA. You foamed at the mouth at the mere mention of having to vote for Clinton to avoid it. Thus you got what you wanted and what you actively worked towards happening. I do not understand what you are complaining about. You wanted Trump to win over Clinton, you got it and all the consequences thereof.
Unfortunately Britain has an archaic binary system where the choice is the tories or labour.
Fortunately, the tories will get dumped on July 4th, ending a horrible 14-year stretch of mismanagement.
Charly #35
And, as demonstrated by the current situation, Trump’s win did in fact not result in some counter-movement that resulted in more progressive democratic leaders.
@ ^LykeX : Truth! Quite the reverese. The Overton window gets dragged way toteh reichwing & oh surprise, the winner is the reichwing. Who’d a-thunk it eh?
Aside from everyobody with half a brain.
Biden is the best president this country has had in 50 years. Especially for his work on reducing the country’s greenhouse gas emissions, the strong economic recovery from the current pandemic, and his support for worker’s rights. I’ll happily vote for him with both hands.
The Electoral College is bad enough but check out what happens if no candidate gets a majority of the ec votes. According to the 12th Amendment a contingency vote is held which is even more biased toward small states and rural areas having power
https://thehill.com/opinion/4713352-if-no-one-wins-270-electoral-college-votes-what-happens-next/
@ 36
Can you really call it a “Labour” party when all the socialists, the actual supporters of the working class, have been driven out or silenced by the neo-lib Bairists?
Akira, you mean the Corbynites? Corbyn and his ilk are pro-Brexit and pro-Russia, so if that’s what you identify as “socialist” then good riddance to bad, traitorous rubbish.
AugustusVerger@42,
I personally know anti-Brexit and anti-Putin socialists driven out of Starmer’s “Labour Party”: he will get rid of anyone who disagrees with his sucking up to the corporate elite if he can, whatever their other views. There have been multiple Jews expelled for “antisemitism” – i.e., anti-Zionism.
Of course Trump should abandon his campaign. Of course he would be much worse than Biden – his return to the White House would be catastrophic for the entire world. Which is why Biden should stand down, and let the Democratic Convention select someone who has a reasonable chance of winning in November.
As for the opinion of Heather Cox Richardson or whoever, we don’t actually know how far Biden is running the country: he has a competent team around him – the government continued functioning when Reagan was well into dementia because he had competent (although vile) people to do it for him. What we know of Biden’s capabilities is what we can see in his public appearances – and on the evidence of the debate, they have declined alarmingly. His subsequent speech showed he can (or could on that occasion) still read off a teleprompter. But when he had to make coherent points in convincing fashion without that aid, he failed miserably. The excuses: “he had a cold”, “he’s a stammerer”, “Trump is a liar”, “the moderators didn’t fact-check live”, “anyone can have a bad day”, are risible.
Biden IS the candidate with a “ reasonable chance of winning.” The parties do not choose candidates, they merely endorse the candidate who wins in the state primaries.
It’s far too late in the election season for anyone but Biden to be the Democratic candidate.
Since he is in fact doing a great job of being POTUS, I fail to understand all this complaining about his age. He could have done better in the “debate”, but trying to engage meaningfully with a narcissist who’s merely flooding the airwaves with a firehose of lies isn’t going to happen.
Yep, he is old, and that’s why we have a VP and a cabinet and entire administration of Biden people that will carry on if he were to suddenly die or become incapacitated.
Yeah yeah, I know KG, you would like the conservatives to keep ruling or Reform UK to take over because then worker’s paradise or something.
KG @45: What’s risible is the notion that the Democrats would admit that Biden is incompetent and somehow then have a better chance of winning the election. Who do you have in mind? Maybe I missed your suggestion.
KG @44, unfortunately there is no candidate with better chances of winning in November. In Post-Debate Poll, Voters Think Biden Is Too Old to Be President Yet Alternative Candidates Perform Similarly Against Trump
Glad to hear you’ve received your talking points, PZ. The momentary disillusionment with Genocide Joe and his obvious cognitive decline was interesting to watch, but I figured it would be memory-holed and replaced with hard copium in weeks. I was wrong. It took a few hours.
Biden’s advisers and their associated propagandists don’t want anyone else to run because they would all get fired and replaced with new advisers. They have obvious conflicts of interest and they shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Behold the inanity:
“[X’s] advisers and their associated propagandists don’t want anyone else to run because they would all get fired and replaced with new advisers.”
That could be said of any incumbent candidate ever.
Also about Trump, who is not incumbent.
<snicker>
Dark Brandon.
(Did you intend that trite generality to be a cluey observation? Heh)
@51
Our active participation in a genocide in the Gaza strip has been memory-holed. No surprise there.
Indeed, which is why it’s a spectacularly bad idea to value the opinion of a campaign adviser on who is the “best” candidate or who is the “most serious”, “electable”, “reasonable”, etc. candidate. Another candidate’s campaign team would clean house. Their job depends on them being able to flat-out lie in response to those questions.
What an idiotic claim.
Aiding Israel is exactly what every single USA administration ever has done since the 1950s.
It would be worse under Trump, obviously, whose record of stroking Israel is much more egregious.
Come on, come clean: can you seriously envision Trump doing this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_floating_pier
<smirk>
I noted it could be said, not that it would perforce be true.
(Caesar and Brutus in the Ides of March)
Behold, beholder: https://spectator.clingendael.org/en/publication/trump-most-pro-israel-president-american-history
@Morales
What are you blithering about? We have plenty of independents, Greens, even One Nation (spit).
KG @45:
Yes, that’s how presidents run the country. That’s always been how presidents have run the country. That’s not a weakness, have a president who tried to micromanage would bring disaster.
Also, I’d like to point out that in addition to the lack of a viable replacement for Biden (FFS, I’ve seen people toss Hillary Clinton’s name out as an alternative), in the event that one actually could be found they’d be starting their campaign a mere four months before the election with no money. That’s not a winning strategy.
Instead, maybe Biden should get Kamala Harris out front and center more and actually doing stuff to remind people that should Biden be unable to finish out another 4 years, there is someone who’ll be promoted up to take his place.
@53
A half-measure that does nothing to address the problems of a genocidal military campaign and a border blockade? Sure.
I remember Trump throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd in Puerto Rico back in 2017. In essence the floating pier is the same idea. Its only utility seems to have been as an entry point for Israeli soldiers, with U.S. military assistance, during the Nuseirat massacre.
You’re better at beholding than at understanding, beholder.
Well, I can’t dispute your strangely anti-Biden perception of the reality of the situation, ridiculous as it is on its face and cherry-picked as you try to make it.
Here, this is what you call does nothing:
“As of June 2024, the pier has handled thousands of tons of food aid,[12] with Fogbow delivering over a thousand pallets of food.[13] According to the US Central Command as of June 24, 2024, more than 6206 tons of humanitarian aid had been delivered since May 17, 2024.[14]” (ibid.)
More to the point, I remember noting in the very earliest days of Israel’s response to the Hamas atrocity that, though it was a given (the always thingy part, remember?) that the USA would provide aid and bombs that Israel could drop on civilians and excuse them in international bodies and so forth, this particular administration was clearly going to act as an ameliorating influence on the total severity and intensity of Israel’s response.
What you spin as being genocidal entails trying to limit another’s genocidal agenda.
(Welcome to the world of realpolitik!)
In your worldview, thousands of tons of food is equivalent (in essence, of course!) to throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd.
Got it.
Which is to say, as far as you are concerned, nothing at all of those thousands of tons of food were eaten by Gazans.
Got it.
—
You do get that was but one example of USA humanitarian aid to Gaza (remember the food drops?).
—
Here:
My emphasis, https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3754718/supplemental-bill-becomes-law-provides-billions-in-aid-for-ukraine-israel-taiwan/
So. Paper towels, eh?
Hey, remember how Trump treated Ukraine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal
anat I agree with your thoughts. he does push forward on those core ideas as best he can. Just how is he supposed to “push” the Israelis to do anything they have never been amenable to being told what to do
same goes for the republican dominated congress and corporate America. though Biden does know how to get things accomplished inside the government, he has done pretty well but does not know how to blow his own horn very well even. Same for the Democrats generally it is almost as they are trying to run away from their positions, principles and accomplishments like they are afraid of them at least the long time leaders seem to act that way though some of the newer politicians are a bit more strident and unafraid to appear “radical”
I think that the vicar thinks that the only way we can become a true liberal truly free state is through the gauntlet of absolute tyranny and the death camps of course we would have him to be our guide on the eventual reformation
Well, let’s contemplate these paper towels.
No need for me to use orthographical indicators henceforth.
–begin extracts–
Q1: What are these packaged meals?
A1: The packaged meal, called a meal, ready-to-eat (MRE), was developed for military use. Each meal is wrapped in a plastic container and has a long shelf life, so it can be stored until needed. The meals weigh about half a pound and contain 1,250 calories. MREs come in 24 different menus but share the same basic structure: a main meal, crackers with a spread, a fruit, a bakery item, and an accessory package with a spoon, napkin, coffee, salt, pepper, and toilet paper—for example, MRE 43/Menu 2: beef shredded in barbecue sauce, fruit puree squeeze, jalapeño cheddar cheese spread, tortillas, a cinnamon bun, and chocolate hazelnut protein drink powder. Each provides a balanced diet. There is a pork-free menu suitable for Muslim populations. The United States has large amounts in storage as part of its wartime stocks.
The United States has another meal, a humanitarian daily ration, specifically designed to feed malnourished civilian populations. Like MREs, these are prepackaged and easily transportable, though with nearly twice the calories and twice the weight. Apparently, the United States used MREs because they are more plentiful and readily available. In the future, the United States might switch to these specifically designed packages.
Q2: How are the meals being delivered?
A2:MREs come in cases of 12, which can be packaged for delivery on a pallet of 48 cases. That pallet contains 576 individual meals and weighs about 1,100 lbs. The pallets of MREs have been delivered by parachute from C-130 tactical cargo aircraft.
Q5: Are there easier ways to deliver supplies by air?
A5: Unfortunately, this is probably the best way forward if air delivery is the only option. The United States might use its larger cargo aircraft, the C-17, which can accommodate 18 military standard pallets or 2.5 to 3 times what a C-130 can carry. This would reduce the number of daily aircraft sorties to about 90. That is still a lot of aircraft sorties to squeeze out of an active duty fleet of 146. The number of MREs required would not change, nor would the daily need for 5,700 parachutes.
The air delivery challenge would be much easier if the aircraft could land on an airfield. Not only would the offload be easier to control, but aircraft could be loaded more heavily. However, the only airfield in Gaza closed 20 years ago. The Berlin airlift had an important advantage in this regard: there were three functioning airports in West Berlin for most of the operation.
[oops, forgot citation]
https://www.csis.org/analysis/air-supplies-gaza-commendable-political-theater-no-long-term-solution
—
Since I’m here, I’ll note Trump once had a charity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_J._Trump_Foundation#Legal_actions_and_closure
(Truly charitable, is he, for certain negative values of ‘charitable’)
The typical Starmeroid lie. It’s not just dishonest, it’s stupid and it’s hackneyed – so exactly what I’d expect from you. You haven’t of course disputed what I said @42, because you know it’s true. It would be too much to expect you to argue honestly, but at least try to be a little less predictable.
Sorry, AugustusVerger’s latest lie was @47, not @43.
Tethys@46
Oh right, so if Biden dropped dead there would be no Democratic candidate?
It was his campaign which wanted this debate. What Biden needed to do at a minimum was to show that he’s all there mentally – and he failed abjectly in this simple task. WTF does “we beat Medicare” mean? Other than that, he should have had a handful of simple answers to obvious questions, a handful of simple talking points he was going to get in whatever questions were asked, and have been ready to call out Trump’s most egregious and predictable lies, such as “post-birth abortion”, huge numbers of people being murdered by immigrants, etc. There’s now apparently an attempt to blame his advisers for “over-preparing” him, which is crap. He’s a highly experienced politician; if he was up to the task of running for President in an absolutely crucial election, he would have been in charge of his own preparation.
Rob Grigjanis@48, anat@49,
People answering polls about hypothetical situations tell us very little. People telling pollsters Biden is too old – and having that opinion amply confirmed by the debate – tell us a lot more. The obvious alternative is Harris, and yes, I know her approval ratings are about the same as Biden’s, but I don’t think that tells us much since she’s inevitably been in Biden’s shadow. If Biden were to drop out now on health grounds, there would be time before the Democratic Convention for her and other possible candidates to put their cases to the public and the delegates. There’s no guarantee of a winning candidate emerging, but how on earth are the Democrats going to protect Biden from making a similar spectacle of himself over the next four months? Avoid any situation where he has to speak without a teleprompter? Because this is only the most egregious example of his “senior moments”. Speaking as though long-dead leaders such as Mitterand and Kohl were still in power was very worrying in itself – that’s exactly the sort of mental reversion to long-past situations that is characteristic of dementia.
Now that’s a real surprise – beholder making a good point.
Jesus wept, I know that. I was making the point that the fact the government has continued to run smoothly does not imply that Biden remains mentally competent. I even gave another example to reinforce the point. But there are still things the President has to do personally, and running for re-election is one of them. Thursday night showed that Biden cannot do that with even minimal competence.
If Biden was capable of running a re-election campaign, he’d have done that eighteen months ago.
The population of Gaza is approximately 2 million. So that’s about 7 lbs of food per person over a month, assuming all the aid was food, and was all delivered successfully. I invite you to try living on 7 lbs of food for a month, John. As for the rest of your apologia, Biden could have halted the genocide any time he wanted* by cutting off arms delieveries. In fact, he had (and has) a legal obligation to do so, since US law forbids arming any state which obstructs the delivery of US humanitarian aid, as Israel has blatantly been doing throughout.
*Assuming it’s still him making the deciaions.
Hey, John Morales resorting to whataboutery! Remember, John, it’s pretty much always a sign that you’re defending the indefensible.
Cut off arms sales, as he is legally obliged to do.
KG, too shallow was your reading.
It’s not that, but it is a rhetorical strategy; the poster using the ‘nym ‘beholder’ wants to drive the conversation to how bad Biden is, I am retaliating with a bespoke technique.
Be aware that I am sustaining previous interactions where I have told that poster and also the ‘vicar’ poster that, in whatever sense they think Biden is bad, that Trump is worse. That was not an observation out of the blue, in short, and it was not context-free.
So. Not whataboutery, but other-guy-worsery. :)
So, you think this is an indefensible claim: “It would be worse under Trump, obviously, whose record of stroking Israel is much more egregious.”
The point I was sustaining via what you quoted, addressed to the very same person.
Perhaps re-read the actual dialogue, and then quote me supposedly defending the indefensible.
Or; however bad Biden has been for the USA’s international relations, Trump was (and will be) worse.
Imagine being Ukranian right now, worrying about Trump becoming POTUS again.
(Not the most pleasant thought, is it?)
mmm. I’m becoming irritated.
Way to fucking miss the entire point.
You do get that thousands of tonnes of food represented, well, fucking FOOD and WATER and TREATS and TOILET PAPER and so forth. The feeble treats for the lucky few.
(BTW, that was the air drops, not the floating dock. And not all the other forms of aid.
—
I mean, yes. Not enough humanitarian aid.
Did you even read the conversation?
The claim was that this was exactly the same (in essence! Like transubstation, no?) as (and I quote) “Trump throwing rolls of paper towels into a crowd in Puerto Rico back in 2017”.
Exactly the same, right?
Here, for you: “This bill includes $1 billion for additional humanitarian aid in Gaza,” he said. “We’re going to immediately secure that aid and surge it … including food, medical supplies [and] clean water.”
Must be because of his feebleness that Biden is so shit at genocide, what with all the humanitarian aid and pauses in weapons delivery and pressure on Israel.
—
But fine.
Me, were I malnourished and hungry (or my loved ones), I would sure appreciate getting something.
Let’s do a bit of computation, shall we?
“over a thousand pallets of food” (1000+ pallets)
“MREs come in cases of 12, which can be packaged for delivery on a pallet of 48 cases. That pallet contains 576 individual meals and weighs about 1,100 lbs”
So.
1000+ × 576 = 576,000+ meals.
One meal for 576,000 people, 10 for 57,600 people, etc.
And those meals keep without special refrigeration etc.
Actually, the military ones come with self-heating rations, water purification tablets, and with toilet paper — which, given Israel has pretty much destroyed the infrastructure so there’s no power, water or sewage, is probably appreciated even only 576,000 times.
Sneering at that humanitarian act is, well, I reckon pretty fucking boorish.
Might be not enough, sure doesn’t solve the problem, sure.
It’s only more than nothing.
But to castigate Biden as if he personally were genocidal or his administration any more so than any previous one is just plain counterfactual.
Whataboutery, eh? Paper towels are just like over a billion dollars of humanitarian aid.
I can beat that: other-guy-worsery™!
Thesis: Trump is worse than Biden, so it would be better if Trump withdrew than the converse.
(PZ approves of this opinion)
Let’s adduce some evidence regarding Israel, then.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/jun/25/joe-biden-and-donald-trump-on-israel-and-gaza-comp/
A pullquote for the flavour of it (emphasis in original):
Well, one more quotation (emphasis in original) out of many others:
Trump has supported Israel unconditionally and says he wants it to get the war “over with,” without mentioning a cease-fire or Palestinian casualties.
Trump’s limited comments about the Israel-Gaza war have offered near-absolute support for Israel.
Trump recently said Israel needs to wrap up the fighting because it was “losing the PR war.” He hasn’t mentioned or condemned the Palestinian casualties, and hasn’t called for a cease-fire.
In April, conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt asked Trump whether he was still “100% with Israel” and how he’d advise Netanyahu.
“You’ve got to get it over with, and you have to get back to normalcy,” Trump said.
“And I’m not sure that I’m loving the way they’re doing it, because you’ve got to have victory. You have to have a victory, and it’s taking a long time.” Trump said that Israel must “finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.”
Anyway, KG. A bit disappointed you don’t get the tactic of always, persistently bashing Biden whenever USA politics or Trump or Biden comes up. It’s not exactly sophisticated.
Maybe you were too perfunctory, maybe you really don’t see it. Ah well.
@ ^ John Morales & @ KG – Reminder :
Trump in the debate said Israel “should finish the job” and he used palestinian as a slur saying Biden was like a Palestinian but a bad weak one..Does he get called Genocide Donald? He deserves to be.
Trump would also see genocide against Ukraine as well as Gaza. Biden was attacked too for allowing the “Palestinian rioting” at one point if memory serves which I think refers to Palestinian protests against their being genocided. The other Repug side of Politics includes the Christain Zionists, Christian Supremcists and blatant Islamophobes who hate the Muslim world generally and would support Netanyahu much more than Biden does.
John Morales @53
Yeah, that checks out. The US was definitely one of the parties to the secretive Sevres Protocol as we were hoping to get back at Nasser alongside Britain and France using Israel as a willing pawn. And we helped their nuclear program soon after. It wasn’t US and the USSR who got hot and bothered over the Suez Crisis. And we supplied Mirage and Mystère jets used against the USS Liberty.
Sarcasm duly noted!
John Morales, StevoR,
You’re evidently both unable to read. Of course Trump would be worse. That’s why Biden needs to withdraw, because the debate showed he is very unlikely to win.
John,
The indefensible you’re defending is the ludicrous gesture politics of the airdrops and floating dock, when Biden could end the genocide within weeks by cuttting off arms supplies and diplomatic support. It doesn’t matter a shit whether Biden is “personally genocidal”, because he’s enabling genocide, and if he were mentally competent, should be on trial for doing so.
KG, fine, providing well over a billion dollars in aid is a ludicrous gesture, far as you are concerned.
Those lucky few who get the aid, I am 100% sure they don’t think it’s a ludicrous gesture.
And also $1B in aid, once Trump’s impediment of it was overcome, and all the other humanitarian aid via various other bodies, such as UNRWA.
—
You know what I think is ludicrous?
Not giving any credit whatsoever to Biden for that humanitarian aid.
In fact — the opposite.
Castigating Biden for approving all that humanitarian aid. Nice.
Far as you’re concerned, providing that aid is just another reason to bash him.
Better by far he’d not provided any aid, so that people couldn’t castigate him for it being useless and ludicrous, right?
Bah.
Could I possibly make it any clearer, I would.
Such naivete! Presidents aren’t Kings, you know.
They don’t get to rule by diktat.
Even if he wanted to do that, he couldn’t.
That’s not how it works.
I wonder how deep your rabbit-hole goes.
Hey, remember the recent mass attack on Israel?
Are you aware of what proportion of those missiles and drones was shot down by the USA?
Is that a case of genocidal warmongering, in your estimation?
After all, those weren’t just US weapons that were used in support of Israel, but military actions by US forces.
—
BTW — have you any idea of how closely integrated USA and Israel are in certain military technologies, for example? What about the treaties and undertakings the USA has taken? etc etc.
(It’s not just about military and financial aid, you know.
The USA is many things, but altruistic is low on the list)
(You think that’s not on topic?)
—
It matters to me, since I’ve been pushing on this narrative that you clearly endorse.
That nickname comes across as implying “personally genocidal”, to me and to most people, if not to you or to beholder.
And you know what? That last technique you essayed is the feeblest yet.
Let me try it:
It doesn’t matter a shit whether it matters a shit to you whether Biden is “personally genocidal”, either.
(So, it has come to this!)
Ah well, going to bed soon, so a nightcap is in order.
It is not I who apparently can’t read; cf. #76:
Thesis: Trump is worse than Biden, so it would be better if Trump withdrew than the converse.
(PZ approves of this opinion)
Right?
If Trump would be worse, as you O so emphatically assert, it follows that it would be better if Trump rather than Biden withdrew, since that would guarantee that Trump would not win, which is much better than the speculative likelihood of whoever replaces Biden were he to withdraw, which would not entail that equivalent guarantee.
(Of course, to meet your unspoken criterion, whoever it was should be better than Biden, or at least no worse, genocide-wise, no?)
(Heh)
John Morales@82
Well it’s evidently served its purpose as far as you are concerned – to give racists and idiots a reason to ignore or downplay the simple fact that he is and has been since the start of the Israeli operation, enabling genocide. That’s what it’s about, and all it’s about, and you fall for it.
Yes, he could. In fact, as I’ve already pointed out, as far as arms supplies are concerned, he is legally obliged to do so. He could issue an executive order saying that as Israel is obstructing US humanitarian aid, no further weapons can be sent there, in line with US law. As for diplomatic support, he is in charge of what the US does and does not do at the UN, and in relations with foreign states, short of declaring war.
You think it matters a shit to those being killed, maimed or losing their families or homes through the agency of American weapons whether he’s “personally genocidal”? You’re really beginning to disgust me. I said a few days ago that I didn’t dislike you, but you’re well on the way to changing that.
Of course it would, you stupid arsehole, and nowhere have I said or implied otherwise. But we know he’s not going to. The question I’m addressing is whether there would be a better chance of keeping him out of power if Biden withdrew. That’s a matter of judgement, and I’m quite prepared to argue my case and listen to the opposing case. I’m not interested in your absurd quibbling.
Since my criterion is unspoken, how do you think you know what it is? There are multiple ways in which Trump would be worse than any conceivable Democratic alternative. I have actually made my criterion quite clear: which possible candidate has the best chance of keeping Trump out of power?
I think we should be able to question the mental competence (and trial-worthiness) of public figures in general, including those in Cabinet positions, at the Pentagon, etc. I also think that full-grown mentally competent adults should be (will have already become?) used to it happening frequently by now, whether they like it or not.
KG @66: The only alternative candidate with any legitimacy is Harris. She is also the only one who can legally access the donations given so far to the Biden-Harris campaign. Anyone else will be starting from zero. And Harris has the problem of dealing with a racist, misogynistic voting public. (The absolutely best scenario for Harris is Biden getting re-elected, being president for at least 2 more years, and then resigning shortly after January 20th 2027. Then Harris gets 2 years to prove herself as president and the possibility to run twice, assuming she gets elected on her own merits the first time.) Other candidates have the additional problem of name recognition.
anat@86,
With regard to Harris, the question is how many would vote for Biden-Harris but not for Harris-Whoever, and how many for Harris-Whoever but not for Biden-Harris. There will be some fairly large proportion who would vote for any Democrat over Trump, and another who would vote for Trump over any Democrat. My hunch is that there are not many who would switch directly between Trump and the Democratic ticket either way if the change were made; we’re talking mostly about people who would not vote, or would vote third party, if the ticket is one of these possibilities, but would vote for the ticket, or for Trump, if it’s the other. We know that Biden’s age and health are a very widespread concern, with a large proportion of Democrats and independents saying he should not be standing. The debate, and its aftermath, will have exacerbated that concern – and so will any future public “senior moments” Biden has – or any apparent attempt to coddle him. I don’t think there’s any real doubt the debate showed that he is suffering a significant degree of cognitive decline – none of the excuses made for him hold water. We also know Biden’s attitude towards the Gaza invasion has alienated a significant number of Black, young, andor progressive voters – Harris would have time to distance herself from that, although clearly that would have its own risks. On the other side, of course racism and misogyny are real factors, but serious racists or misogynists will likely not vote Biden-Harris because of the very real possibility (I’d even say likelihood, and so would many potential voters) that Harris would become President at some point during the term. We also know Obama won two presidential elections, and that Hilary Clinton won the popular vote – and would almost certainly have won the presidency were it not for Comey’s illegitimate interference. So I think those factors may be overstated.
You imagine I fall for it; rather, I don’t just ignore it as if it were an irrelevance.
People who are even the tiniest bit analytic can see multiple aspects of a situation, rather than only the geopolitical ones. The side-effects, if you like.
So, yes, it’s a gesture, but it actually also helps people too. Not enough, but more than nothing.
To claim it’s only a gesture, to claim it’s nothing but a ludicrous gesture, that is just plain stupidity.
And, again for the last time: hungry people appreciate food. Weird, eh?
(Billion-dollar gestures!)
KG:
Fine; since you’ve disputed my claim, it is not the case that your position that Biden should be replaced includes the unspoken criterion that whoever it may be should be better than Biden, or at least no worse, genocide-wise.
So, without that criterion, it follows you have no objection to a replacement candidate who may be even more “genocidal” than Biden.
(Not personally, of course!)
What a coincidence! The Democratic party has the very same criterion!
(Of course, it perhaps knows a tad more about the situation than you)
Well, why not a trinity.
Well, that’s the post subject. The topic at hand.
You know, the one about which we are supposedly commenting.
(“I think my emphasis was all wrong. This is a better opinion.”, quoth PZ)
The post about Joe quitting is this one: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2024/06/28/joe-must-go/
This is the post about it being better if Trump rather than Biden withdrew.
[So quiet!]
Here: https://www.usaid.gov/west-bank-and-gaza/vulnerable-populations
(Genocidal, according to some. Not according to the aid recipients, of course)
Ah, right. Sorry, KG.
Clearly, any US aid to Palestine since Biden was elected is (and I quote) “to give racists and idiots a reason to ignore or downplay the simple fact that he is and has been since the start of the Israeli operation, enabling genocide”.
In your estimation.
But then, you’re not hungry, are you? And your taps work, no? And you have electricity.
And hospitals that haven’t been destroyed. Oh, and when you shit, you can flush your loo, no?
Only a gesture, is humanitarian aid. For such as you.