I feel like Libertarians have been keeping a low profile for the last few years, after learning that airing their ridiculous views gets them almost as much ridicule as “sovereign citizen” declarations (I think there is a lot of overlap between the two groups, though.) The existence of laws and regulations is a slap in their faces, and they believe that if only they could get rid of those meddling, interfering restrictions they could live in an Edenic paradise. So a group of independent thinkers decided to build a suburb in Arizona while ignoring the need to provide water. Water? It falls out of the sky and flows on the ground, we don’t need no stinkin’ pipelines. In the desert.
Arizona law requires homebuilders in active management areas to secure a reliable source of water expected to last at least a hundred years. However, there’s a loophole: the law only applies to subdivisions of six homes or more. You can guess what some clever developers do: they simply build lots of “subdivisions” each consisting of only five homes.
These so-called “wildcat” communities are all over the state. They’re miniature havens of freedom, perfect for stubbornly independent libertarians who want to get out from under the thumb of government bureaucrats telling them where they can and can’t live. Rio Verde Foothills is one such.
But then they made an awful discovery. It turns out, even when you find a way to skirt regulations about water… humans still need water.
Curse you, physical laws of the universe! How dare you disrupt my fantasies with harsh realities?
Suddenly, these people faced what every Libertarian dreads most: consequences.
…because there isn’t much water in the area’s aquifers, many others rely on trucks that deliver water from the city of Scottsdale, which has rights to water from the Colorado River. When Scottsdale shut off the water last year, Rio Verde had nowhere to turn for substitute supplies: There was no spare groundwater, and all the water from the Colorado River was spoken for. Locals who found alternate water haulers had to pay monthly bills that were larger than their mortgage payments.
In my limited experience with life in the dry Eastern Washington state, residents have to pay attention to things like aquifers and reservoirs and irrigation, especially if you’re in a resource-intensive occupation like farming, and those are communal resources with strict rules about how they may be shared. Everyone has to work together to get access to the water they need. These developers decided to just ignore those rules for their own selfish gain.
But let’s not just blame Libertarians and developers. Everyone in the desert Southwest has to recognize that their environment imposes limitations on their growth.
“Will the home buyers sue the developers, or shoot them? Stay tuned for the next episode of FAFO: Galt’s Gulch“
A couple years back a mansion in a new, high end gated community burned down in Texas. The local fire department couldn’t do anything more than watch it burn to the ground. Apparently, Texas doesn’t require fire hydrants in new developments, so there weren’t any.
No reason to worry, technology will save us!
WaterCube: World’s first home atmosphere-to-water generator makes 120 gallons a day
Sue the developers? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. THEY didn’t break the law, therefore did nothing wrong. Caveat emptor and all that. /developer’s lawyers
It’s not just libertarianism. This (among other problems) is an inevitable consequence of leaving housing to the “free” market.
These have been around forever.
I have one in my kitchen. It’s called a refrigerator.
These work by cooling the air and since cool air holds less water vapor, it condenses out.
Arizona is hot and dry, that desert thing.
The humidity in Arizona is below the design of this device, stated as 40%.
Will such a device or similar work in Arizona?
It doesn’t look likely but without testing and data, who knows?
It is also going to use a lot of electricity but they don’t give any numbers of how much their water costs in kilowatts and dollars.
Got to be a harsh reality check when you’ve been insisting that you aren’t part of citizenry of a governmental entity and then you’re forced to acknowledge that it is that governmental entity that provides some of the resources that allow you to live the lifestyle you crave. Just like those idiot sovcits who insist their right to travel doesn’t require a license, or registration of their vehicles but, somehow still allow the access to the roads paid for by others.
I tried to look up how much atmospheric harvested water costs.
There aren’t a whole lot of numbers out there, meaning…a lot.
It depends on a lot of variables such as relative humidity, temperature, and whether you use grid electricity or off the grid solar panels.
This source has it at $0.41 per gallon.
This doesn’t sound like a lot until you know that one US person uses around 100 gallons per day. So $40 per day per person.
These people in Arizona are not going to be taking long showers or watering their lawn.
They are going to be using a lot of paper plates and plastic forks.
Larry @6:
You’d think so, but time after time this keeps happening and the Libertarians whine that it’s because they didn’t have enough freedumbs, if only they had more freedumbs they’d have succeeded.
Libertarians are a highly immature bunch: if they had an inclination toward personal responsibility they wouldn’t have become libertarians in the first place.
Someone once said that libertarians are like house cats: fiercely independent, but utterly oblivious to the support structures to which they owe their entire existence.
I wonder how much difference there is between WaterCube and an air conditioner. My aunt and uncle gave my parents a portable air conditioner some years ago, and one of the things you need to do when it’s running is empty the water tank. I think it’s maybe 3 or 4 litres in capacity. I have no clue whether the water that comes out of it would be safe to drink.
@3,5,7,10 WaterCube
No, they don’t mention how much it costs. I’m sure it varies with conditions, but they could have given an example, such as that 80 degree, 60% humidity test case. It would also vary with your local price of electricity. This bit was fatuous:
Which is to say, it burns electricity. Whether that electricity is from renewable sources, who knows?
And @10, I don’t know if it uses a compressor-condensor pair like an air conditioner, refrigerator or dehumidifer, or whether it is some other technology. But your A/C comparison brings up another point: If it is burning electricity, it is producing heat. Which means if it is located indoors (and I have no idea if this would be typical), you need to run extra A/C to make up for it.
If you want an insight into libertarians trying to build an utopian community I recommend the book “A Libertarian Walks Into A Bear “.
The ‘Bear’ is not a typo. A libertarian community refused to cooperate with garbage removal. Edible garbage was dumped outdoors. In bear country. People actually got eaten.
Here is another example of Loonytarianism in action.
A group was going to set up a Galt’s Gulch in Chile.
On paper it looked like a good idea.
It never got off the ground.
The organizers were con people and they stole all the money of anyone who tried to buy into the plan.
It was and is imaginary. Like Loonytarianism.
Step 1: Buy a lot of trucks modified to carry water tanks.
Step 2: Read about a Roman named Crassus.
Step 3: Profit.
I know it’s an aside, but…
Why is everything always worse in the USA? Germany has a third of that usage.
Watercube is entertaining. Back around 2007 I reviewed plans for a municipal water and power generating station, biggest investments were land and concrete, followed by pipes and its working fluid – anhydrous ammonia. Solar collectors collected heat, which heated anhydrous ammonia within the closed system, which operated a generator system and ran through a cooling tower, which happened to cool enough to condense water from the air. In that specific system, said water was to be discharged as waste.
For a place like Qatar, a peninsula in a shallow sea, copious sunlight and water in the air, one would have easily filtered water and power for the cost of unused desert land and some concrete (which the nation was literally made of).
One ointment for the fly for this development, it’s a wee bit drier in the Nevada desert. For Vegas, think 20% – 35% relative humidity.
Of course, for libertarians, there’d be no municipal version, so they’re just self-screwed. Some things just can’t scale down realistically. Ignorance can be fixed by education, stupidity cannot be fixed. They’re always, “A man is strongest alone” right until they need help, say a fire brigade or ambulance or police, then they’re screaming for the communal help that they formerly rejected. Or dead. Rejecting history and well, archeology. We don’t find hermit lodging signatures at all, only small to large communities. Makes sense, man vs tiger, well fed tiger, village vs tiger, relocated tiger. Something still observed in parts of the Indian subcontinent today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/6yv93/if_housepets_were_libertarians/?rdt=48282
Giliell @ 15, largely due to resources. In much of Europe, water was undrinkable, either due to pollution by human waste or being difficult to reach or sulfur content. That’s true in much of the world and one can measure that by the cultural adoption of beers and wines, a historically easy way to purify water. I’ve actually watched a documentary that attributed the existence of the pyramids of Egypt to beer, more than to any other technology.
Meanwhile, the US has copious amounts of freshwater. We did our level best to contaminate it for ages, but finally realized that was a bad idea and cleaned things up before we poisoned ourselves completely. Largely.
In the 1890’s, the Schuylkill river in Philadelphia literally caught fire, incinerating a fishing boat and killing six fishermen. In the 1960’s, the river in Philadelphia was considered sterile, the Delaware as well. By the late 1970’s, fish in the Delaware had returned and were becoming edible again, the Schuylkill slowly recovering as well. It’s, over the course of my lifetime gone from avoid all contact with Schuylkill river water to safe to play in the water.
And notable for this:
https://www.phillyrivercast.org/
As was observed in the European theater during WWII, “The Americans will do the right thing, after they’ve exhausted every other possibility”.
Basically, when a resource is plentiful, human nature tends to drive wasteful activities with that resource. When it’s scarce, scarcity drives conservation. And when it’s plentiful, poisonous due to our activities and hence, dangerous to all, we’ll either destroy it completely or clean it up.
Again, examples being the Schuylkill river, Thames river and Rhine river, with the US learning that lesson last.
And libertarians bitching the entire way as we cleaned things up and when we splashed the poisonous water over them to shut them up one way or another.
Because, rivers aren’t supposed to be capable of fucking burning, dammitall!
Oh, a bit more Philly facts that are little known. On the shores of the Schuylkill river have long been refineries, dating back to the late 1800’s. While we’ve finally cleaned up the river, the land is another story. Along the shores, one cannot excavate without special permit, due to the petroleum contamination just beneath the soil. Created a special problem with a large complex now occupied by the Defense Personnel Logistics Center, which the DoD wanted to sell off as excess, but was unable to find a buyer for, due to the high levels of contamination in the area. The area otherwise residential… Beneath the city is a large aquifer, it’s entirely non-potable.
PZ, can you check the filter for my response? Nothing nasty in it, save a link to river quality, might’ve gotten trapped with that and one expletive. Gives some historic background on a question asked above.
And will make sense of the joke about potable water drawn from the Schuylkill river being referred to in Philly as “Schuylkill punch” and much disliked. That river was contaminated far worse than the Thames ever was…
Thanks, mighty whitey rainforest dweller, for ‘splaining to me how to live here in the desert. Much appreciated.
The entire Earth imposes hard limits on population, so we’ll all have to figure out how to live within that sooner or later. In the meantime the rest of you guys support endless wars that are horrific on their own, but additionally warm the planet which has predictable consequences here in a semi-arid desert.
We have a natural abundance of uranium and thorium, at least. We should use some of it to pump desalinated water in from the coast.
@2 weatherwax
Not sure which community but this did happen in Lakeside Terrace in Houston in Feb 2022, Oct. 2020,…. It looks like Houston does require fire hydrants; however, this development was built (c. 1964? when the homeowners association was started) so not exactly new and then apparently annexed later to Houston?
Surprised that, after 18 comments, there are no Herbert/Dune refs/jokes… so, to get the ball rolling, ref 1: Weapon of Choice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPzrb24qS24
Some more recent info on the situation in Arizona https://grist.org/housing/arizona-rio-verde-foothills-water-wildcat-subdivisions/ which is mixed. The developers are pushing for easing the current restrictions on developing while others want to remove the loophole.
A few years back I looked into taking a job with my company which would have moved me to the Phoenix area. I’m glad it didn’t pan out. I like the southwest, but I no longer want to live there. At some point the water resources are going to come to an absolute breaking point and it’s going to be Thunderdome.
All of this is why I think it is absolutely insane to fund building silicon fabs–which are very water intensive–in Arizona.
raven @5
The difference in relative humidity in an Arizona summer is in large part due to temperature.
Looking at this table, air at 60% relative humidity at 68 °F contains just as much moisture as air at 20% relative humidity at 104 °F; 0.28 oz./cu. yd.
@birgerjohansson #12:
I can also recommend the book written by one of the black bear experts interviewed by that author, which describes he and his wife’s decades-long observations of the social interactions and problem-solving skills of what aren’t normally thought of as social animals. I think it’s titled something like “A Company of Bears” but I can’t remember the expert’s name (I would go and check my shelves for it but I’ve just got out of the shower and it’s too bloody cold upstairs!).
Being a tad
suspiciouscurious, I looked:https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/i-drank-water-that-this-giant-steel-box-pulled-from-the-air-at-ces-2024/
Pullquotes:
“The floor model of the WC-100 WaterCube I saw at the largest tech conference of the year stands more than 3 feet tall and weighs 800 pounds. The company told us that production models will weigh in closer to 600 pounds — still very big.”
“But that “water independence” will cost you — $20,000 on preorder, to be exact. “This is a whole new way of thinking. It’s shifting the paradigm of how things are going with water,” Genesis Systems CEO Sharon Stuckenberg told CNET. ”
Also looked at the acronym: Consumer Electronics Show (CES) 2024
—
Fog harvesting has been a thing for some time, but probably not in Arizona.
(https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/06/1203891520/drought-climate-change-fog-harvesting)
https://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2010/05/if-house-pets-were-libertarian.html
Libertarianism is fine if the total population of a community is one Ayn Rand.
It all boiled down to these cheap bastards not wanting to pay more for their water and making a national disgrace of themselves. Unsurprisingly, when push came to shove the first thing out of their mouths was a message of government dependence.
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/rio-verde-water-crisis-heres-what-you-should-know-as-deal-to-restore-water-deliveries-faces-questions
That was a year ago. Since then legislation was passed during 2023 and a plan is in place to provide “Rio Verde,” which has neither a rio nor much verde, with water. Again, it’s costing them more and they sure don’t like it.
Meanwhile, a coastline desalination plant runs into obvious problems of it’s a long distance, uphill, and Mexico being in the way, oops! I would presume none of them would care about the environmental damage of course, but there’s that too.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/19/arizona-mexico-water-pipeline-housing-boom
I live in Tucson. I don’t have kids and I’m not going to. Tucson has better plans in place than Phoenix or the fuckwits who want to turn Buckeye into another Phoenix but bigger. Sure, parts of the state will become increasingly uninhabitable by humans but before we get to Mad Max, there will be a lot more legal/illegal shenanigans, looting the aquifer, and straight water theft and violence (more, that is, than we already see now).
For awhile, during the latest drought, The Great Salt Lake was drying up because its source streams were dry. The was causing horrible dirty air days when the winds blew the dust and salts off the dry lakebeds into the populated areas. Naturally, these salts included some nasty products that have lain at the bottom of the lake during wet periods. As a result, proposals were being bandied about in the Utah legislature proposing pipelines be built from the west coast to pipe desalinized waters from the ocean to the lake, a thousand miles away and having to cross a number of mountain ranges and open desert. Of course, when cost estimates to run a pipe that far came in, as well as the fact that the coastal states might just have a wee objection, the idea was dropped. It also helped that they had a wet winter so their dancing on the head of a pin could continue.
@3 Not in Arizona it won’t.
From your link:
Ok, how well does it work at 120° and 20% humidity? Ie., in Arizona. I’m guessing the widget isn’t producing 100 gallons of potable water under those circumstances. Not with a 40% humidity floor.
Wait, it’s solar powered? So… it only works during daylight hours. Hmm.
“pollution free water”? Are they including air pollution in that wildly optimistic statement?
@25 Well, as long as you don’t need any water in the summer or during the night, you should be just fine then. /s
The relative humidity is one thing, getting the water out of the air is a completely different thing. The widget doesn’t work below 40% humidity.
@4 Ten bucks says the developers are an LLC. Who you gonna sue? The LLC was probably dissolved after the development was completed and the partnership received all the money that could be squeezed out of it.
Why don’t you sue God for making you stupid enough to buy this POS property while you’re at it.
@9 Honestly, that is the best description of libertarians I’ve heard to date.
@17 The Schuylkill River only burned ONCE? AMATEURS. The Cuyahoga River has burned far more often than that! Whiners!
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/cuyahoga-river-caught-fire-least-dozen-times-no-one-cared-until-1969-180972444/
But it is radioactive, so you have that I guess.
https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/philadelphia-says-radioactive-water-not-related-to-japan-events/
@ 19, 29 Scottsdale and other large AZ cities are currently relying on water farming to solve their water needs, which, bluntly, is a fool’s paradise. You can buy all the water rights you want, that doesn’t mean that there will actually be any water. The money’s certainly gone though.
Also, in the coming years, there will almost certainly be fewer Arizonans, so the problem may solve itself. AZ has a large portion of the population living in trailers. Due to climate change, an increasingly large number of trailer dwellers are expected to die in increasingly frequent heat waves. AZ is a relatively poor state, so government assistance will probably not be forthcoming to help these people.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/07/02/arizona-mobile-home-deaths/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/16/phoenix-deadly-extreme-heat-wave/
Of course, once word starts to get around about the “wildcat” developments, AZ will become considerably less attractive to retirees. Other citizens, the ones with the economic means, will eventually leave, if they can afford to bite the economic bullet that will be the loss of their ability to sell the single most expensive asset that they own: their home. Strangely, no one wants to buy a home in a place with no water, no economy and where the heat routinely kills people. Where you can get second degree burns just from coming in contact with the pavement.
The younger generation, with no assets, will largely leave in search of work and places with more water.
So yes, the population issue will resolve itself, just in singularly horrible ways.
Why would anyone expect Arizonans to understand consequences? This is the state that picked Jan Brewer for governor and Kyrsten Sinema for senator. Also the state that largely refuses to give up green watered lawns, swimming pools, build subterranean or at least partially earth-sheltered homes or even paint the roofs white or use solar panels. Because these are all things that Obama recommended and hey, you can’t do ANYTHING Obama wants, no matter how beneficial it is to you, individually and collectively.
The attitude is not very pragmatic, clearly.
Let’s see…
Average annual precipitation 7.92 inches.
(https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/maricopa/arizona/united-states/usaz0131)
So, in proper measurement units, 201 mm per annum, which is 201 litres per square meter.
“Many of the homes in Rio Verde Foothills are three or more bedrooms and 1,200 to 5000 square feet in size”
(https://www.kennethjamesrealty.com/rio-verde-foothills/)
In proper measurement units, 111 to 464 square meters for a typical dwelling, though of course the floor area is normally exceeded by the roof area, especially if there are porches.
So, the range of roof rainwater from those dwellings ranges from 22301 to 93264 liters annually, ignoring any outbuildings or dedicated structures for rainwater collection. In Freedom units, that would yield 5891 to 24640 gallons annually, which is 16 gallons to 67.5 gallons per day.
On average, of course. Seems doable to me.
—
In passing, in rural South Australia, all rural development plans in low rainfall areas require at minimum a 10000 liter rainwater tank for dwelling approvals (more for larger dwellings), and in bushfire risk areas at least a 5000 liter dedicated fire fighting water tank)
silvrhalide @31,
Hmmm. If only that electricity could be stored, somehow, for overnight use.
—
And yes, I know this discussion about water pragmatics is not what the post is about, other than indirectly.
For anyone who thinks that rechargeable batteries are a good idea in AZ…
https://www.fastcompany.com/90923968/ev-batteries-extreme-heat-charging-longevity
https://www.redarcelectronics.com/us/resources/chargers-isolators-faqs/do-not-charge-lithium-battery-below-32-degrees/#:~:text=Lithium%20battery%20manufacturers%20often%20state,model%2C%20consult%20your%20manufacturer).
https://goldenmateenergy.com/blogs/goldenmate-blog/what-temperature-is-bad-for-lithium-batteries
Battery Status
Temperature Range
Discharge
-4° F to 130° F
Charge
32° F to 114° F
Storage
20° F to 95° F
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHTlVmBbnPA
For the uninitiated, the desert gets cold at night. Also in the winter. Really fucking cold.
I had to deal with the CA-AZ-NM-TX climate when I was a kid. I remember crossing the desert (this was in the 70s) in a car with no air conditioning. The MO was to get up before dawn, dress in layers (the outermost one being a winter parka) and ditch them throughout the course of the day. Preferentially, you would get to a stopping point before noon and STOP THERE until the sun dropped considerably closer to the horizon. Then you would drive some more & get to your destination, or at least a stopping point before 9pm and then STAY THERE for the night.
You ALWAYS traveled with a trunk full of gallon water bottles. Just in case the car broke down, the water would keep you alive long enough for someone to see you and stop. Because there were no cell phones back in the day, people would nearly always stop to help, since you could be dead if someone didn’t offer help. (Also, two adults with preschool age kids in the car aren’t the most threatening people in the world.)
Basically, lithium ion batteries are a losing proposition at both ends of the energy spectrum–at night, the battery won’t recharge under 32°F and should definitely not be used during heatwaves–the upper limit for DISCHARGE is about 130°F but you are still playing with fire–literally–when you are using it above 120°F, thereby rendering it largely useless in an AZ summer. Lithium batteries heat up–a lot–when used. It doesn’t take much for a lithium battery to overheat during use in an AZ summer, to cross that 10 degree threshold between 120°F and 130°F.
And then there’s this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/schizophrenia-extreme-heat-health-risk/
Although libertarians would argue that the mentally ill have the right to kill themselves through heatstroke, never mind the fact that they literally can’t make rational decisions. And if they didn’t want to die, they shouldn’t have been mentally ill in the first place or made the decision to go out in the sun, never mind that a lot of the mentally ill are homeless.
Is there a betting pool for how long it takes for the libertarian asshats to start whining that they need a government buyout to save them from their own greed, stupidity and selfishness in buying into these wildcat developments?
silvrhalide:
“For anyone who thinks that rechargeable batteries are a good idea in AZ…”
That would be people who know that there are multiple battery types and chemistries, of which lithium ion is but one. Not people like you, who imagine they are the only possible type.
Never mind flywheels and suchlike.
Did you imagine nobody has cell phones in Arizona?
Nobody drives cars in Arizona?
Heh.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC00-33A.pdf
THERMAL EFFECTS ON NICKEL-CADMIUM BATTERIES. The nickel-cadmium battery is capable of performing to its rated capacity when the ambient temperature of the battery is in the range of approximately 70 degrees to 90 degrees F. An increase or decrease in temperature, from this range, results in reduced capacity. A combination of high battery temperature (in excess of 100 degrees F) and overcharging can lead to a condition called “thermal runaway.” Basically, “thermal runaway” is an uncontrollable rise in battery temperature that will ultimately destroy the battery. This condition can occur when a nickel-cadmium battery is operated at above normal temperatures and is subjected to high charging currents associated with constant voltage charging. As the temperature of the battery increases, the effective internal resistance decreases and higher current is drawn from the constant voltage charging source. The higher current increases the battery temperature which in turn results in even higher charging currents and temperatures.
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-410-charging-at-high-and-low-temperatures
BATTERY TYPE CHARGE TEMPERATURE DISCHARGE TEMPERATURE CHARGE ADVISORY
Lead acid –20°C to 50°C
(–4°F to 122°F) –20°C to 50°C
(–4°F to 122°F) Charge at 0.3C or lessbelow freezing.
Lower V-threshold by 3mV/°C when hot.
NiCd, NiMH 0°C to 45°C
(32°F to 113°F) –20°C to 65°C
(–4°F to 149°F) Charge at 0.1C between – 18°C and 0°C.
Charge at 0.3C between 0°C and 5°C.
Charge acceptance at 45°C is 70%. Charge acceptance at 60°C is 45%.
Li-ion 0°C to 45°C
(32°F to 113°F) –20°C to 60°C
(–4°F to 140°F) No charge permitted below freezing.
Good charge/discharge performance at higher temperature but shorter life.
silvrhalide, you’re obstinately missing the point. But I can be obstinate, too.
@34, you wrote: “For anyone who thinks that rechargeable batteries are a good idea in AZ
[…]
I remember crossing the desert (this was in the 70s) in a car with no air conditioning.”
Did your car have a rechargeable battery? ;)
Let me belabour the point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_types
(And, again, batteries are not the only way to store electrical power as potential power, by a long shot)
Huh.
Arizona Utility Plans $294M Battery Array To Store Solar Power
“Lithium-iron phosphate storage system would be among the nation’s largest”
“Tucson Electric Power plans to begin construction before the end of the year on an estimated $294-million battery system for solar energy that, at peak efficiency, would store 800 MW hours. The system, sited near its Vail substation in Tucson, Ariz., would have the capacity to power approximately 42,000 homes for four hours, according to TEP.”
Is there a betting pool for how long it takes for the libertarian asshats to start whining that they need a government buyout to save them from their own greed, stupidity and selfishness in buying into these wildcat developments?
I’ve heard some of that lot insisting “Government buyouts” would have been a much better way to abolish slavery than having a civil war that disrupted free enterprise. As in, Lincoln could have simply had the government buy up all the slaves and then free them; but he went to war instead, which proves he was really a tyrant and a communist.
Sure. OK.
The difference here is how much energy is it going to take to extract that water vapor.
The dew point is the temperature at which water starts condensing out of the air.
Using a dew point calculator, the dew point of 104 F air at 20% is…55 degrees F.
You will have to cool the air below that to get even half the water out of the air.
This machine is going to make a great air conditioner as well as water harvester. It’s also going to use a lot of electricity.
I don’t think anyone is going to run it during the hot summer days in Arizona though.
The dew point at 60% humidity and 68 F is…54 F (12 C).
Huh. And what would the U.S. Energy Information Administration know about Arizona?
“Arizona also has almost 160 megawatts of battery energy storage systems at 9 sites. Battery storage projects are a cost-effective option for adding power in remote rural communities.”
(https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=AZ)
raven:
Um, the tech is simple as. One runs a heat pump, thus cooling a component upon which any moisture conndenses. 12C is extremely achievable.
From my link @27: “If it’s less humid, the machine will still make water (Stuckenberg said it will produce down into the single digits of humidity), but it won’t make as much.”
Plenty of solar power, when it’s that dry and that hot. A perfect marriage.
That isn’t the issue.
You missed the entire point. Again.
Once again, “…Using a dew point calculator, the dew point of 104 F air at 20% is…55 degrees F.”
This is what Arizona is like a lot of the year. Very hot.
To get this to work, you have to cool that 104 F air down well below 55 degrees F.
Sure it is achievable. My refrigerator does better than that without any problem.
But my refrigerator doesn’t make 100 gallons of water a day either.
What the problem here is is scale. You will have to cool huge volumes of air from 104 to say 45 F. It’s going to take a lot of electricity. Unless each household wants to set up their own solar power system, it will come from the grid. Either way it is going to cost a lot of money as an ongoing expense.
The point of mentioning the actual specs of the machine which are…”The dew point at 60% humidity and 68 F is…54 F (12 C).: should be obvious.
It is a lot easier to cool air from 68 F to 54 F than to cool air from 104 F to…55 F.
This means the machine is going to work a lot better at night with cooler temperatures and higher relative humidities.
Now anyone who hasn’t lost interest knows why almost all of us in the USA, get their water by turning a knob on a faucet. It is quick, easy, and cheap unless you are a Loonytarian in Arizona, attempting to live in a desert without a water company connection.
I want to look up air circulation and live underground.
I suppose it might be possible to live in Scottsdale, Arizona without a water utility pipe to your house.
.1. Scottsdale gets 7.66 inches of water a year in rainfall. Not much but not zero either. This is the average, some years more, some years less.
We don’t very often use roof and hard surface rain water capture here. Yet, anyway.
I only know one person and they just use the water for their yard and garden.
You need to set up a large underground storage tank, below the roof at least since water runs downhill. Then a pump to get it to your house and redo the entire plumbing system.
CDC rooftop rainfall collection. “While useful for many things, rainwater is not as pure as you might think, so you cannot assume it is safe to drink. Rain can wash different types of contaminants into the water you collect …
You aren’t supposed to drink it so it goes for showers and toilet flushing, maybe washing clothes.
Don’t forget that rainfall is very seasonal. Some months it rains, and some months it never rains.
.2 The potable water comes from the atmospheric harvester.
These units run around $20,000 to $30,000. Or maybe you can use a smaller unit since it is just for drinking and cooking.
It might work but it is going to take a lot of work and it will also be expensive.
And if there is a drought, common in that area these days, it might just stop working. In Phoenix, the driest year in 2002 was 2 82 inches and 3.26 inches in 2009.
raven:
Heh heh heh.
You are wanking on, I know the actual reality.
You don’t know much about Australia, do ya? We take that stuff seriously.
But then, it’s government regulation; kinda the opposite of libertarianism.
See, one needs approval to build a dwelling, and those approvals are issued by the local council, and there are mandatory requirements. As I noted above, @32.
Here, for you: https://cdn.environment.sa.gov.au/landscape/docs/mr/rainwater-tank-use-fact.pdf
“From the 1st of July 2006 new homes and household extensions of greater than 50m2 are required to install a rainwater tank plumbed for internal use.”
This is quite relevant to the post, no?
Government regulation when sensible (and enforced!) works damn well, to everyone’s benefit.
Mandate water collection, increase welfare. It actually works.
Mind you, we also have a thing called a Water Allocation Plan, and recognise that storm water when harvested is no longer available as groundwater (to replenish aquifers) or surfacewater (to replenish ecosystems). All part of having it sensibly managed, and that includes damming and other environmental water diversions.
(I used to take minutes for the WAP committee for our area, so I know this stuff.
I did one titled “Interaction Between Bores”, which amused me greatly — basically, when one puts in a new bore, one should consider its effects on the area and on neighbouring properties — which are sometimes sizeable)
—
Point being, people said water can’t be had there short of piping it in, and Reginald made a snarky about the magical box, which people talked about. Then others weighed in, some claiming it could not work (it can) and that rechargeable batteries just don’t work there (they do, they can).
Now you’re also trying to say it’s not doable (it is).
In each case, I’ve responded to the naysayers without deprecating the concept at hand, only its particular instantiation.
So, you’re hooked on this idea that rainwater collection is neither safe nor doable, other than for gardens, and I’m noting you are wrongity-wrong about this, and that it works, evidently and demonstrably, even though maybe at most one person does it in Scottsdale.
Primitive place, evidently.
Oh, right, the CDC:
“If your home is not connected to a public water system and you do not have a ground water source, you may get your water from a rainwater collection system. In many areas of the world, people collect and use rainwater as their drinking water source.If your home is not connected to a public water system and you do not have a ground water source, you may get your water from a rainwater collection system. In many areas of the world, people collect and use rainwater as their drinking water source.”
(https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/public/water_sources.html)
I mean, sure: don’t assume it’s safe.
But then, don’t assume well water is safe, or that tap water is safe. I mean, especially in the USA.
(https://abcnews.go.com/US/lead-water-americas-water-dangerous-drink/story?id=98438736)
Not that much lead or arsenic in normal rainwater, those are ground and pipe contaminants.
[OT]
I remember the news:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/05/forgotten-towns-ohio-toxic-train-derailment
raven @ 44, do look upthread. I mentioned a solar collector powered energy generation plant, its only pollutant, water that’s condensed from the air by the cooling system.
Tested and worked well in Florida, then tested under desert conditions.
Downsides, the usual, big plants of any sort cost money to build and well, it uses anhydrous ammonia, which isn’t pleasant to be around if it leaks.
And as soon as one tells a libertarian they can’t build somewhere, they’ll build there, then gripe about any poisoning they get from a maintenance caused leak and demand their only source of water and electricity be shut down and built in someone else’s back yard.
As for the battery argument, prime power energy storage remains still with lead-acid batteries, either gel cell valve batteries or liquid lead-acid cells in some few locations. Less prone to thermal runaway, but more prone to hydrogen gas venting and with temperatures beyond optimum in either extreme, massively reduced battery life. Primary cause of failure being lead whiskers shorting individual cells out.
Of course, that whole hydrogen gas thing can be a wee bit of a problem, as anyone who has served on a diesel-electric submarine can tell you – and the folks at Fukushima… A lot of DE submarines were lost to battery room explosions.
Still, bury for environmental control, vent and monitor for gas, as is currently done. Enjoy the bill, I was part of a project to replace a literal room large enough to house a commercial automotive repair garage for six cars full of lead-acid gel cell valve batteries. Even the US government hesitated at that bill. For years. Until the power went out and well, all war communications for both war theaters ran through that building and the general’s telephone stopped working…
No clue what they did with the old batteries, they’re recyclable, but transportation costs money. Even money, disposed off on the economy, which means dumped off the Somali coast.
Wzrd1
That explanation makes zero sense. Germany has about the best drinking water in the world and most water is not used for drinking. How do your toilets, dishwashers and washing machines apparently use three times the water we do?
Also out of Arizona, because of course stupid is contagious – “Governor cuts funding for desalination project from $333 million to $33 million.” I mean, its just numbers right? I am sure dropping the funding down to 10% of the original will work fine. They can do what some other states have tried to do with child labor and hire recently graduated 8th graders to shake buckets of salt water until the impurities fall out (that works right?) Oh, and if they can get Trump back in he can make himself loved again by executive ordering the federal minimum wage out of existence, and Rethuglican run states can then end their own minimum wages, and they can pay the kids in Pokemon cards or something…. A truly perfect Rethuglican, and Libertarian paradise!
Sadly… this is among the worst and more absurd things I can imagine, and from experience they probably have something 50 times stupider, and 100 times more horrible in the works instead.
Where did this come from?
I don’t live in Scottsdale, which is a suburb of Phoenix, Arizona. I live 700 miles away near the Pacific ocean. I only know what is going on where I live.
As it turns out, a lot of people in the desert southwest do collect rainwater.
In an average year is Scottsdale, you might harvest enough water from your roof to get by.
Average yearly rain fall is 7.66 inches.
This area is subject to droughts.
Some years rainfall in Scottsdale, is only 2 or 3 inches a year.
There will be years where your rooftop rain collection system won’t work.
Giliell @ 50, I’m looking for the reference, which discussed natural sulfur in well water throughout Europe. Not treated water, which frankly is far purer than the swill we accept in the US.
But, again, it comes down to levels of excess promoting wasteful behavior, hence we waste absolutely absurd amounts of water, then piss and moan during any droughts and have absolutely no clue how to conserve what little remains.
I remember the first time I used a European dishwashing machine, after using a US model or six for decades, took around four times longer than the US counterpart, but water ran for much shorter times. I seem to recall using less detergent as well, probably secondary to longer wash cycles.
For the longest time, literally into my lifetime, Americans treated pollution as an industrial score, the higher pollution, the better industry was doing and hence, they were doing. Anyone complaining about environmental degradation was a commie and evil, so Teddy Roosevelt was a commie to some. Or at least anti-business and hence, anti-job and well, after making national parks a thing, he became antimatter politically.
But then, since inception, the United States has always had the absolute best government that money can buy. I’ve been in buildings that still stand today in Philly made with Washington bricks, dating back to George Washington’s day. Interesting, as Pennsylvania had absolutely no shortage of clay or wood for charcoal and its own brickworks.
So, pollution was good, clean water was commie, then came Love Canal, NY and kids dying wholesale from cancer and burning creeks.
Then, we did what Europe did and cleaned up – a century later, but American exceptionalism and all! Just as we lead medically, adopting that crazy German germ theory crap a half century after Europe, adopting percutaneous valve replacement a quarter century after Europe and are only now testing a Cuban lung cancer vaccine that’s been in use everywhere else for a quarter century. Leading from the rear, as usual, but absolutely the best at leading in mediocrity.
Well, back to digging on the sulfur. Hopefully, the original source I heard it from years ago wasn’t BS. I recall something about the basement rock giving the elevated levels and some specific crops and sulfur levels.
Or it could just be that I was regurgitating bullshit, so I’m looking… Bullshit belongs in pastures.
Wow! A lot OT, but it’s snowing with greater intent now, only got around an inch last night or so, now visibility is around 100 meters, whiteout conditions beyond. National Weather Service is calling 5 – 8 inches (12.7 – 20 cm).
Glad I got all of my shopping done! If I end up needing bread, I’ll just bake some. And I just realized, my apartment’s oven has a low temperature range, most US ovens start at far too high a temperature to make proper brown bread and mine does have that range. Excuse me while I dig for that recipe…
Giliell @15, @50:
I wonder how much of the excess water usage in the US is due to watering lawns. We don’t and our usage is half the number raven quoted. Also, old US toilets are wasteful. According to this source in 2016 only 37% of households had efficient toilets. No idea what the current number is, but considering Trump’s rants about modern toilets, I bet there was little increase among his supporters.
Hmm, part of that source might be due to karst aquifer being a major source of water around the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karst#Chemistry_of_dissolution
Still looking. Found the recipe I want for dark bread as well.
And Germany is good at reporting health and environment.
https://www.bgr.bund.de/EN/Themen/Wasser/grundwasser_deutschland_en.html;jsessionid=D4B37E4AC0B5ACDE20E06DBA407BBDB3.internet981?nn=1548136
anat @ 54, a lot of US waste goes toward lawns. Never could figure out the fascination for the fucking things. A lot is also wasted in wasteful irrigation methods, with tons of runoff, rather than allowing it to be collected and distributed through the soil.
Toilets and Trump, yeah, thanks to the god-emperor wannabe, high efficiency toilets, whose usage was on the rise, had declining sales. The series “King of the Hill” didn’t help sales either, with an entire episode dedicated to the evils of non-flushing high efficiency toilets that needed to be flushed seven times to flush Texan shit…
We had two high efficiency types, one sounded like a fighter jet taking off (OK, not quite, but the damned things were loud) and well, European style, which was catching on – once people figured out what the two buttons did.*
*Hey, we had European toilets in the Persian Gulf and I’d been gone from Europe for a generation, literally. So, I was mystified about those two buttons. Being utterly unamerican in nature, I simply asked and loved the idea, faithfully using them properly. Kept my water bill sane too, in a region that only gets an inch of rain per year.
Yeah, I’m also weird, when lost, I’ll actually stop and ask for directions.**
**Don’t get me started on “country directions”. “Go down the road a spell, hang a left where ole Ed Jones barn used to be, it burned down 30 years ago, then a hop, skip and a jump and hang a right…” Got the spell down, hop, skip and a jump as well, turning where a barn burned down 30 years previously remains beyond my ken. Oh well, could’ve been in Vermont, “Can’t get theya from hea”… One simply can’t drink enough.
@56 Don’t forget that, besides water, US toilets pretty much all use toilet paper. Heard not too long ago that, unable to keep up with demands, we also import millions of tons from Canada (to the extent that deforestation in Canada is caused in no small part by US toilet paper usage)…