But I have to — Warren is dropping out of the race. It’s a rational response given her weak showing in the primaries to date, and also because it is clear the media was never going to take her seriously. I hope that whoever ends up getting the nomination does, though, and gives Warren and some of the other candidates significant positions in their administration.
Now it’s a two-person competition for the Democratic nomination, between two very old white men. This is not a good position to be in. What is this, a racist, sexist gerontocracy? (Rhetorical question: yes, yes it is.)
I do sincerely think she would have been the best president – assuming a normal country. Every Democrat is functionally the same shitty president because the Republicans have decided to ruin everything.
Excellent, another trash candidate out of the running.
Porivil, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Biden is still in the race.
Damn it all.
Well, she was my second choice for POTUS, that leaves Sanders for the DNC to rat fuck again and I and quite a few former nose holders won’t be holding our nose this time. It’ll either be stay home or vote for the God-King, Emperor Trump’s second and permanent term (I’m sure he’ll declare himself Emperor for life and the Senate will sit on their hands for life).
It was a nice democracy, pity that you couldn’t preserve it.
@3
I didn’t say that Warren is the only trash candidate in the race, just that she is one of said trash candidates. Biden is also among them.
OK, after recovering from yesterday’s Post-Super-Tuesday rage hangover, I offer this for consideration:
If Sanders does fail to get the nomination, then the ball is in Biden’s court and he has a choice: He, like other centrist Democratic candidate’s before him, can continue to dismiss the concerns and goals of socialists/progressives, denigrating them as “far left extremists” all the while demanding we vote for him anyway because “TRUMP WOULD BE WORSE,” and hope the “mainstream” Dems and a few undecideds will carry him to victory. Or, he can approach them, make policy concessions and promise some substantial role in the next administration as help move some left-friendly legislation through congress.
At this stage, I don’t know which he’ll try, nor do I know which strategy will actually result in a Democratic in this political climate. You’d think that it would be a latter, but I’m afraid that this paranoid, callous, greedy country has gone so far down the right-wing rabbit hole that former may actually work.
Artor @ 3
Wait, isn’t Tulsi “I’m not really a homophobic Hindu-offshoot cult member.” Gabbard still technically in the race?
Guess I’m in for Sanders now. I’ve already voted, so what I want doesn’t matter now, but he better not pick some shitbird like Tulsi. I’d take a Biden-Warren ticket over a Sanders-Gabbard ticket…
And I really hope Sanders is in for actually accomplishing any of his goals. He’s a great advocate and organizer, but as an administrator…not so much. He likes chasing the car but I’m not confident he knows what to do once he’s caught it…
He doesn’t endorse expanding the courts, ending the filibuster, or prosecuting the Trump criminals, and his anti-corruption platform past elections is just banning MoC from lobbying gigs. Plus a good portion of his movement, like Porivil up there, has convinced me that “virtue signaling” is actually a thing. I’m becoming more and more convinced they don’t actually care about their supposed goals, they’re just posers and pikers hijacking good things to masturbate their egos. I’m gonna keep working for M4A and other progressive ideals, but I gotta weigh getting “whatever we can” from a cowardly Biden administration vs whether the Sanders movement will actually do anything or just find ways to sabotage themselves and self-righteously blame others. I’m still pretty convinced of Sanders’ sincerity, at least, but if he can’t keep his people disciplined, and his coalition-building is so bad he’s in danger of losing Warren’s endorsement…
Well, it’s all moot anyway, since I already voted. Come November I gotta canvass and vote whoever the nominee is. I just hope Sanders can manage to unnscrew this pooch so it isn’t Biden.
Gabbard is indeed still in the race. But I don’t want Warren to take a job in a Dem (I hope) administration. I’d prefer her to stay in the Senate. She’s likely to be able to do at least as much good there. Hey, I voted for her.
Kinda sick of the “old white guys” thing… First, Tulsi Gabbard is still in it. Second, there’s a HUGE difference between the two old white men remaining. Bernie would be the first Jewish president (and he’s probably atheist to boot). That’s huge. He’s also been an advocate for women’s rights and the LGBT community for decades. He would be the most progressive Democrat since FDR, and this would be a boon for all underprivileged communities. I want better representation in all levels of society, and having good politics is an important part of that.
@9
Yeah. It couldn’t be that I actually find Warren to be intolerable. Having political opinions isn’t real when they aren’t the ones you also hold.
Feel free to make that case, but given that I actively work in the fields I’m hoping for reform in and contribute as much as I can to my local DSA, I’m certainly going through quite a bit of unnecessary hardship if this is all just virtue signalling.
I hope she stays right where she is. There’s little reason to think Baker won’t allow himself to be strongarmed into appointing yet another tRumpian fascist nightmare to replace her in the Senate.
@12
Because storming in and telling the blog owner and others they promote garbage because their opinions about politicians aren’t aligned with yours is a tried and true method of garnering sympathy and support.
Plonk. Or grow up.
@14
So I should pretend to support a candidate I find intolerable because people here happen to support her, or else my political opinion is just ‘virtue signalling’? Rather defeats the purpose of a comment section.
Regardless, I don’t come here to canvas for Sanders. That’s what the phone and text banking is for. I’m here to comment on blog posts.
No. But you might consider offering a substantive criticism with some basis in reality rather than spittle-flecked chest-beating one can only hope was more eloquent in the original Russian.
Well damn! I just voted for her yesterday (GA early voting; all the original candidates are still on the ballot here). I don’t regret it though. Maybe seeing she is still getting votes even after she dropped out will cheer her up some. I definitely agree with Dr. Myers that the lack of media attention hurt her badly and is inexcusable.
@16
Neat. I’m not only virtue signalling, but also apparently a russian agent. This somehow is less of a bad-faith accusation than when conservatives accuse us of being virtue signalling soros agents.
Regardless, my post wasn’t intended to be a substantive criticism, but rather a celebration of a candidate I dislike dropping out, just the same as PZ did literally yesterday.
Insofar as my substantive criticisms, I find her policies to largely be concession-riddled obama-era means-tested wonkery that I have no interest in. She doesn’t reflect the policies I consider important and necessary. Hence, I don’t like her, same as why I don’t like Biden, Buttigieg, or Bloomberg.
She was my second choice till she betrayed everything I care about.
Herself not immediately endorsing Sanders is alarming. She split the progressive vote and is part of the reason Sanders doesnt have a substantial leave. She needs to do that soon or it shows that she never actually cared about progressive politics.
well that is an interesting development.
the choice is now clearer at last and as we can see it is an old choice. All the way back to Trueman the democrats choice has been toward the moderate and away from the progressive view, the move to the right. The moderate choice has ended up with what we have now a corrupt and thoroughly supine republican party with a moral a’hole as leader.
We can try again to take the safe road of the soft vacuous center or try the hard one of the fight for a better and more equitable future.
Will the democratic party chose to stand for something or the status quo?
The old republican party of Bob Dole is long and completely dead killed by ‘the southern strategy” , can the democrats survive the status quo as a liberal party?
so that is the only way I can look at this without feeling hopeless.
uncle frogy
Also just because a lot of Sander’s fanatics are virtue signaling idiots who care more about being seen as anti establishmentarian than they do about enacting actuall positive change, doesnt mean you get to call everyone who disagrees with your candidate one. Because your not being helpfull. Not everybody is a bernie bro, russian agent, hipster.
Warren was my choice. Sanders never grew his rabid base and he is not a Democrat. Biden is old and white but he’s getting votes–so the people have spoken up to this point. Biden-Warren could be the ticket. I expect the Bernie supportes will take their marbles and go home and not vote and allow Trump to win.
Nothing wrong with Sanders, no matter how annoying some of his supporters are. Especially the ones who whine about the outcome being “stolen” just because his opponent gets more votes.
Well, my candidate is out. The eventual nominee will have my full support, no matter who it is. This is about beating the orange shitgibbon AND taking back the Senate. Whoever looks to best support those ends will have my vote in the primary.
After reading the last long thread, i take back what I said. Virtue signaling is the correct description we have here. Either that or they are si far to the left that they cant tell the difference between an outright fascist and Biden. This country is fucked.
@26
That’s an incredibly dishonest reading of that thread, given that I repeatedly admit that Biden is better than Trump.
https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1235627154878185475
Truth be told, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to prove a negative and demonstrate that I’m not virtue signalling. The fact that I’ve been consistent on my political position as long as I’ve been posting here would point in that direction, but there’s nothing stopping people from pretending to be mind-readers and claiming that I don’t actually hold those positions. If there’s nothing I could possibly do to demonstrate otherwise, what exactly is the point of making such an unfalsifiable accusation?
Why are there no Biden Bro’s? Seems like a real marketing opportunity for an aspiring Russian bot farm.
Bernie is Jewish, and I know you’re not an anti-semite PZ, so why refer to him as JUST A WHITE GUY? That’s its own form of offensiveness and entails its own form of race reductionism.
He’s also the first publicly secular candidate, something the US has needed for over 250 years.
But hey, by your logic, this isn’t the blog of a secular progressive scientist, it’s just the blog of an old white man. So everyone stop reading!
Warren is also white. I didn’t hold that against her.
@porivil that last sentence wasnt for you. Should have clarified. Sorry.
I do believe we’ve got a Russian bot on board.
@33
No worries, sorry for assuming, I’m kind of on the defensive when this is the like fifth time in 24 hours I’ve been accused of either being a deep cover russian plant or a virtue signaller.
No one is asking you to prove you are not one. Were just calling you that. Did we expect thunderfoot to prove he is not sexist? Thats proving a negative on its own.
“I do believe we’ve got a Russian bot on board.”
What is it with you people and russians / russian bots? In every election-thread someone posts some garbage about russia, putin or bots. The only way “Putin” is manipulating the vote is by MSNBC dumbfucks talking about what Putin supposedly wants you to do. Turn off your TV, MSM has probably done more damage to your country than Trump.
Personally, I hope Warren isn’t tempted to work for any future Democratic administrations. I want her right where she is, fighting the good fight in the US Senate.
@36
I mean, sure, but that just makes it a meaningless smear if it’s not actually a falsifiable description of the situation at large. Which like, you’re free to say if you really don’t care about the veracity of your arguments, but I’m just going to continue to deny it.
That’s exactly what a Russian bot would say.
BTW: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/03/05/business/ap-us-election-2020-russian-interference.html
“Report: Russian Social Accounts Sow Election Discord-Again”
“The report from University of Wisconsin-Madison professor Young Mie Kim found that Russia-linked social media accounts are posting about the same divisive issues — race relations, gun laws and immigration — as they did in 2016, when the Kremlin polluted American voters’ feeds with messages about the presidential election.”
It’s an incredibly honest reading of you, however, to say that you don’t think Biden is sufficiently better than Trump to advocate people vote Biden if he happens to be the nominee.
More than once you’ve said that you won’t vote for him because your vote doesn’t matter as you are not registered in a swing state and combined that statement with another saying that you have no recommendation for how people should vote in swing states.
You’ve had your chance to say that Biden is sufficiently better than Trump that people should vote Biden over Trump in swing states. You have declined, deliberate choosing instead wishy-washy, “Do whatever!” language. It’s no surprise, then, that your protestations that you think Biden is better than Trump are taken with a rock of salt. After all, you don’t think that he’s enough better to base a voting decision on, so from what any of your readers can tell, he’s not relevantly better. He’s not better in a way that changes (or should change) behavior in real life, from your point of view.
So, sure. You think Biden’s better the same way I think eating raw poisonous slugs is better than eating raw poisonous snails: I’d never do either, I’m never going to do either, and I don’t want anyone I know to do either, but I suppose in hypothetical magic land if you’re going to do it anyway at least the slug saves you the work of getting rid of the shell.
I loathe the idea of nominating Biden. But I think he’s sufficiently better than Trump that if (FSM forbid) he does beat Sanders for the nomination, I have no problem saying that he’s better enough that I advocate for people in swing states to vote for Biden.
Hell, I think he’s better enough to advocate for people in non-swing states to vote for Biden, because as much as you tell yourself that your vote doesn’t matter, if enough others join your point of view then you are living in a swing state.
The quote from Bernie seems to be the first comment in this thread that enumerates substantive issues.
A list like that should be at the heart of every one of these posts.
Instead we get electability, as if aligning the concerns of voters was of no value.
Somehow progressives have been switched of the track into the sand trap
Anyways, if we really have gotten to the point that we’re going to start pointing fingers at each other and screaming “Russian!” like some shitty modern red scare, maybe we really are past the point of no return.
I don’t actually doubt that there is Russian interference in our elections, by the by, but going full McCarthy and using something as minor as “Not liking the president option I like while supporting socialism” as conclusive proof of being a bot means you fundamentally misunderstood why witch hunts like the red scare are a bad thing.
@40: seems like the solution is not to give a fuck if you don’t like what someone writes. That battle is easily won by just walking away. Also you seem to have a poor understanding of what a bot is and how to spot one.
Oh, please. Porivil is not a “russian bot”. They are pissed off at a selection of candidates that don’t represent their interests very well.
I expect we’re all going to get a lot angrier by November. Keep it focused on the real target: Republicans.
@34 and who is that russian plant? A russian plant that infiltrated the small community of PZ blog for what?
My favorite thing about the previous thread is the utter lack of empathy towards those who the ACA has helped because being a radical leftist is more important than facts or reality.
The world is better of with the ACA than without, with thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands who are alive thanks to obamacare. Is it M4A? No. Would M4A be better? Yes. But you know what M4A wouldnt even be on anyones fucking radar without obamacare. Now M4A is not only a possibility but a hell of a lot of people are fighting for it when in the past no one cared. Incrementalism works, but you have to see it through. Throwing your hands up because it wasnt perfect from the get go is how you end up with nothing.
Because I never get tired of saying this, if we elected Clinton thats two dems in a row and our votes would have put the establishment in a bind. Either support us or get primaried out. Thats what the right does. We could too. This would have forced the right more towards the center as well as they will see Trumps rhetoric as not electable. Instead its the other way around. The time for your revolution was 2016, now its just damage control. And dont pretend radical leftist with their conspiracies of rigged primary and other bullshit didnt help trump. When your side is acting as another branch of propaganda for the right, its not helpful.
Purity politics you cannot get what you want. You will always wait for the rain to subside while we all drown. Its hard to put my faith is revolution politics when the perpetrators of that fantasy wont even do the bare minimum of even voting.
@45 PZ Myers
Aha! That’s exactly what a Russian bot would say to protect his comrade! Now we’re getting somewhere. These communists are a sneaky lot. Setting up one of their agents at UMM so they can spread their tentacles out with blogs and and and lawsuits, so Russian bots can infiltrate our ranks. Devious and clever. WE’RE ON TO YOU!!!
@31 anarchobyron
I was thinking the same thing. Sanders would be our first Jewish president and that’s not nothing. I don’t think PZ intended to erase his identity like that, just probably slipped his mind. (Get it? “Slipped”. Because PZ recently slipped on… Sheesh tough crowd. Okay okay bad pun I apologize for that.)
Mrdead:
Hm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Religion,_heritage,_and_values
I hardly call that his “identity”, or imagine that it’s somehow erased by merely not mentioning his upbringing. Might as well claim Warren’s identity is similarly erased by not mentioning she is Christian.
But yeah, he’s apparently an accommodationist: “His wife is Roman Catholic, and he has often expressed admiration for Pope Francis, saying that “the leader of the Catholic Church is raising profound issues. It is important that we listen to what he has said.””
Two old “white” men? I suspect that Bernie’s joke was a little more than that. He’s Jewish and to a lot of Americans they aren’t real white people you know.
tedw wrote:
I think it’s less that she lacked media attention. There was a couple weeks were she was the darling of the media before they lost interest and moved to Pete Buttigieg. It’s a problem inherent with news as corporate-owned entertainment rather than as a public good. The entire primary has been absurd exercise in journalistic malpractice for ratings.
@logicalcat:
I only half agree with this. Purity politics can work very well – it has for Republicans – but for it to work well,
1) there has to be money in it, and
2) your whole coalition/party base has to be on board.
Pluralism and diversity are values of the left’s base that would make it very hard to get them to come to unanimous agreement on some purity pledge. Given that combined with the fact that the left in the US doesn’t put large sums of money on primary-ing moderates out of existence, purity politics will not get our particular group what we want.
If that’s what you mean, I wholeheartedly agree. The open-ended version though runs up against the counterfactual reality that purity politics’ effectiveness is part of how we ended up in this mess to begin with.
@18: I would be interested to know which policies you do consider important and necessary.
@Porivil
You know what? Calling you a virtue signaler was not fair. In my defense everyone Ive met with this kind of revolutionary purity politics shit has been a virtue signaler, but its easy to tell that outside the internet. And I remain convinced that its a problem of the left. I don’t think you are that, and I don’t like making people feel defensive about expressing themselves (unless they are a Nazi, then I don’t care about their feelings). So I’m sorry.
@Crip Dyke
I see what you mean. I guess my problem with purity politics is in how it takes priority. With the right wing, its the goal. The prize at the end of the journey. With the left, especially the more radical left (and I mean that pejoratively) its the entrance requirement. One of these two actually wins elections and primaries. And its not because of the money. I know this is going to be seen as crazy talk but money, while it is a problem, cannot guarantee you win an election. Bloomberg spent how much only to lose? And Sanders outspent Clinton during the last primary because she choose to save her money for the general. Money is a problem, sure, but its not something you cant overcome.
@53
Just off the top of my head, the total abolition of private insurance, the total end of disenfranchisement for felons, tuition-free public education, student debt cancellation, establishing a federal jobs program ala the WPA, federal protections for unions and striking, harsh federal limits on financial institutions, an intense wealth tax, common ownership of the means of production, open borders, federal legalization of all drugs, raising the mandatory minimum wage, neutering ICE, and the complete withdrawal of the US military from all foreign engagements.
Obviously, Sanders doesn’t share all of those positions with me, but he is significantly closer to my position than Warren. Him being an open socialist for longer than my parents have been able to drink, and Warren being a “capitalist to her bones” doesn’t help.
@logicalcat:
Interesting thought. I can see a little bit where you’re going with it, but I think it needs and deserves more exploration.
John Morales, quoting Mrdead Inmypocket:
Things like this (yesterday) don’t happen when Christians run for office.
Headline from the Daily Mail: Shocking moment protester waves Nazi flag at Bernie Sanders’ rally in Phoenix before it is snatched away by senator’s supporters and he is kicked out of arena (pictures and video available there). One of the few news outlets I could find reporting on this (and from the UK!), so I’ll take it. From the article:
Specifically, a Phoenix TV reporter posted on twitter this video of him shouting the N word at a black dude. There were some others with a huge Trump/MAGA banner who were also kicked out.
@49 John Morales
Don’t much care what you and I would “hardly call his identity”. I’ve heard him say in person he identifies as Jewish. I wouldn’t presume to try and define what I think that should entail. If he says he’s Jewish it’s good enough for me, I move on with life. Found this.
Major difference between being Christian and Jewish people, who are an ethnoreligious group. Even if they’re not religious the ethnicity is still something that can define their identity. At least that’s what they tell me. It’s late here so maybe I’m not thinking straight on that. It would be pretty bizarre to hear Warren say “I’m ethnically Christian”, yeah? I don’t think it’s a good comparison. I’m open to correction there. So what if someone is a convert to Judiasm, but they aren’t ethnically Jewish. Perhaps that would be a better comparison with Warren and Christianity. I’ll give it more thought after I’ve slept a bit, but still that doesn’t apply to Sanders who is ethnically Jewish.
Well he’s wrong on that.
CR, I can’t dispute that “Jew” may be (and indeed is) used in multiple senses.
For some, people of Jewish descent are perforce Jews, and they are hated by Nazi types for that very thing. But they hate leftists, too.
So, your adduced examples don’t indicate that it’s a religious thing; they indicate it may be a racist thing, and/or a political thing.
None of which is germane to my quoted point, to wit “Might as well claim Warren’s identity is similarly erased by not mentioning she is Christian.”
Their ethnicity/religion may be an aspect of their identity, but not mentioning that is nothing like erasing someone’s identity, unless they’re a religious/ethnic exemplar I grant.
So, a bit of an irrelevance there, and perforce here too.
John Morales:
You can take whatever you want out of Mrdead Inmypocket’s comment.
The flag-waving Nazis don’t care. Spend your time criticizing that shit for what it so obviously is, or be a part of the problem.
Mrdead,
By which you evidently mean you might find a comment thread where this identity about which you purportedly don’t care is not explicitly mentioned and proclaim “Sanders would be our first Jewish president and that’s not nothing. I don’t think PZ intended to erase his identity like that”.
A different phrasing of what I just noted prior. But ‘”can define” is not “ineluctably defines” their identity, is it?
Well, it would be a weird identity, no?
Point is that neither their ethnicity nor their religion defines their identity as politicians.
CR:
I already did, remember?
I took what was written at face value, even quoted it.
I addressed it.
Umbrage has been taken.
You already did that, but sure: Flag-waving Nazis are silly. There you are.
In a better country, the Nazi would not have been able to walk off as if nothing happened, and the cop would not have ordered the black guy to go inside.
You may be the only one to care about your opinion. (Video at the link.)
57:
You’ll be glad to know that an antifa captured their flag.
https://twitter.com/ladawn/status/1235781196115849216
On another subject:
Has anyone ever considered that calling folks ‘russian bots’ rampantly and jumping at shadows was an intended objective of Putin’s bots? He’s out to cause chaos, and Americans going full paranoia about that is an excellent outcome, for that program.
Also ridiculous:
Trump Supporters Fly ‘Trump 2020’ Helicopter Over Sanders Rally in Phoenix
@61 John Morales
You mistook my meaning. Probably my fault. I wasn’t saying that.
When I say “Don’t much care what you and I would “hardly call his identity”” What I mean is, it doesn’t matter that you “can hardly call that his “identity””. Emphasis on “you”. What matters is what Sanders says it is. If he says he’s Jewish then he is. What you think about how he self identifies is largely irrelevant.
This is just my belief on this. We shouldn’t insist that our conception of what entails someone’s self identity, overrides what they say it is. As it seems you’re trying to argue with Sanders. That your conception of his self identity overrides his. Our opinions of their self identity don’t matter, what matters is theirs. Seems like the polite way to handle it to me. I may be wrong.
That’s not the point. Lets rewind I guess. PZ called Bernie an “old white guy”. Sanders identifies as ethnically Jewish. That’s erasure. It’s significant that he’s ethnically Jewish and that he could be president, for obvious reasons. I thought it was an oversight too, as anarchobyron @ 31 mentioned. So I very lightly pushed back. Very lightly mind you. Look, I was even being facetious about it to lighten the mood a bit.
You aren’t arguing this just to try and run interference for PZ? Because that’s not needed. Faux pas, it happens. He’s probably still on pain meds from his fall. If not he still has lots of social justice equity built up, enough to carry him clear into the next century if need be. He can take a small hit for the cause, we don’t comment here and discuss these things to police each other. We do it to examine the subject at hand, extrapolate on the ideas so that others who come can see them laid out and benefit from that. Thus raising us all. Well, I do.
Speaking about being on meds. That “Random thoughts about the course of this election” post. What a hot mess. It’s fine to write, but don’t post anything till you know you’ve come down on those pain meds. I say this half in jest mind you. Some of those bullet points had me laughing.
That Bernie Sanders is ethnically jewish seems a weird hill to even fight on, much less die over. His father was a polish jew that fled to the US, and a significant amount of his extended family died in the holocaust. Irrespective of how he identifies, that fact alone carries with it a fair bit of baggage.