Noel Plum is one of those ignorable pests who I’d normally disregard, but he suckered me in with a title illustration of his recent rant about Kevin Logan, Kristi Winters, and me. Apparently we’re a trio of supervillains.
Cool! It’s not at all how I think of myself, but comic-book-style flattery will get you attention. So I made a short video to point out his silliness.
Maybe this will start a trend of YouTube anti-SJWs making more cartoony cartoons of me. That would be amusing.
A wise man once said that you can be measured by the quality of your detactors. Sorry. ;(
A wise man once said that you can be measured by the quality of your detactors. Sorry. ;)
Kevin Logan is badly done, but Kristi Winters looks way better and you look pure awesome in that picture.
Sad that it was made by some that unlikeable :/
Clearly someone who believes photoshop skills are more important than argumentation.
CW: Rape apologetics
Like… I’ve tried talking to NoelPlum (in the comments of videos, as that is who I am), and he always responds, with horrible paragraphs of text (even worse than mine), and at the end of it he’s just a rightwinger who spends so much time reinforcing his own biases that he’ll tell you, for instance, that you can’t have a rape culture if society in general derides rapists or if a country has lower (reported – but he doesn’t care about that) rape stats than some other society. Rape is down, society hates it, Noel’s odd-ball definition of rape culture means none exists!
Yeah. Sifting through his four-part 1-2 hour each “discussion” videos where he misses the point in the first 5 minutes and then proceeds to bloviate nonsensically at strawmen has been a harrowing experience.
Like, at least he’s more intelligent than Sargon.
=8)-DX
I do really love that pic of you as Loki, PZ. I think I’d be more likely to register for a conference that uses that image of you in its speaker-lineup than any other photo or art of which I’m aware.
I don’t know about Kristi, though. Who is she supposed to be in that image? I got Galactus on the Left, but her body just isn’t ringing any bells.
In this case, attempts at ridicule, rather than evidential argument, is he last resort of the incompetent….
Crip Dyke, #6,
A quick google search for supervillain and the omega symbol turns up the picture of Darkseid on Wikipedia as the basis for that middle one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkseid
A model of critical thought, that NoelPlum.
I like the cartoon characters but I think you need a helmet. The hat with the flaps, nah.
I had never heard of Noel Plum. I may not be missing much.
@6 I think that’s Doctor Doom.
@6(Crip Dyke)&11(gijoel): It is indeed Dr. Doom.
https://uncannyknack.deviantart.com/art/Doctor-Doom-502755762
@gijoel:
You mean PZ or Kristi?
I suppose PZ could be (sitting atop) Doom just as easily as Loki, there are lots of versions of Loki with armor and the fur collar looks more Loki than Doom, but sure. I’m not geek enough to know whether it’s actually more likely to be one or the other. I’ll take your Doomy word for it.
But the thing I’m really interested in is Kristi’s head’s body. Exactly what super-villain is that supposed to be?
Ah! Zeckenschwarm! Thank you, thank you! That picture clinches it: gijoel was correct, my rush to Loki-judgement was in error.
I have to say that although it clearly is Dr. Doom, I kinda liked the irony of PZ as a Norse god. Well, at least they got the “Dr” part right.
@13 PZ
I’ve decided that I will now avoid saying “I am an atheist”.
I know someone who has autism, but he says “I have autism”, not “I am autistic”. He doesn’t want his autism to define him.
Likewise.
And I am going with the dictionary definition. I am a person who does not believe in gods. Period. The rest is something else. For example, I am a person with humanist ethics. The fact that I do not believe in gods is connected to the fact that my ethics are not religious but that’s about the only connection. And, I am a person with a social conscience. This is totally unrelated to the fact that I do not believe in gods.
Perhaps I’ll l wear that for a while and see how it pans out.
I remember Noel Plum commenting here before he was banned.
He was an idiot.
Lol, so I had to delurk and sign up to comment… Came across this little piece of artwork on Mastodon the other day, and couldn’t help but laugh when I saw even the artist thinks it looks a wee bit like you, PZ:
https://mastodon.art/@MJBlacke/99830941282373125
Little bit less supervillain, little more grandpa kraken (I know it’s supposed to be just an octopus, but there’s a shipwreck in the background, so I’m choosing to believe it sinks ships for the precious, precious books on board).
billyjoe:
Really? Because you immediately proceeded to inform readers that you are a dictionary atheist, not just an atheist.
<snicker>
Gotcha. Apart from your ethics, your atheism doesn’t have any implications whatsoever.
Since your personal ethics are connected to your disbelief in gods (or, as you would have formerly put it, your atheism), do you find it difficult to accept that movement atheism (that is, the collective of those who publicly endorse atheism) might have a similar connection to its ethical stance?
@chigau:
NoelPlum99 actually reminds me quite a bit of billyjoe – or the other way round.
CD
Yeah, not good in any sense.
@John Morales: All a lack of god-belief does is to exclude from the infinity of possible self-consistent world views the smaller infinity of possible self-consistent theistic worldviews. This is still purely negative. Bald isn’t a hair colour. An atheist’s personal ethics aren’t “connected to disbelief in gods”, they are not-connected to belief in gods. Those two things aren’t equivalent.
I actually see no conflict between being atheist, and not deriving my morality from the fact that I am an atheist.
HolmsI actually see no conflict between being atheist, and not deriving my morality from the fact that I am an atheist.That’s because it is the other way round: being or becoming an atheist is derived from your morality, in this case the value of critical reasoning. If you don’t apply the same values on other parts of life, you’re being dishonest or at least inconsistent.
Sorry, blockquote fail:
That’s because it is the other way round: being or becoming an atheist is derived from your morality, in this case the value of critical reasoning. If you don’t apply the same values on other parts of life, you’re being dishonest or at least inconsistent.
And what have we learned from this? That apparently one cannot be a super hero nor a super villain without wearing some ridiculous suit.
jakebardon @ #18
That is adorable, with all the little student octopuses learning from the great teacher!
Yeah, isn’t it so adorable how the people who constantly criticize people who suggest we, “think about problems”, constantly cast their opponents are dictators, who, like Darkseid, want to, “Conquer the universe and erase free will.” They would have “Obey” posters all over the place, while “claiming” it was ironic, or satirical, but.. they would be literally every place, for some reason, and they would all be like a Business managements class – everyone in the same dreary uniform, because, “People need to be able to identify who we are!” The rest of us, in this jokers super universe would be in every sort of costume possible, and every color, and the only place the “obey” poster would be located would be under the dart board, in the rec room.
But, yeah, we are the “super villains”. lol
Oh gods, I remember Noelplum.
CD @20
My thoughts exactly.
You look like a cross between a Geology teacher and Vlad The Implaler .
Makes sense. Vampires are keenly interested in where garlic is grown, and in shady places, and where wood is scarce, so an keen interest in biology and geology is to be expected.
When dining with Mr Impaler ,do not ask for the steak .
#25
No. That reasoning is nonsense, all you did was use the word ‘value’ to create a tenuous conceptual link to morality. Also, I was an atheist long before I began thinking seriously about morality.
You don’t have to come at atheism from a moral perspective — a scientific mindset will also get you there.
Well, I do assume that you have a scientific mindset because you care for truth, and because you consider truth a good thing in itself, not just a means to a goal.
Strictly speaking, values and ethics aren’t really the same thing. An individual can value the truth very, very highly but not have any ethical constraint on lying: think of the CIA which wants to know everything and finds it out in significant part by lying.
Also, some things – like a “scientific mindset” – can be a behavioral pattern or tendency without being directly connected with ethics.
I certainly admit that in messy human lives these are usually connected, but in messy human ways that make it hard to establish consistent relationships like, “truth is not just a means & truth is good => scientific mindset”
As for the exact discussion between Holms & rietpluim, I can say that there’s nothing too definite and dogmatic to be untrue, but both of you strike me as saying things in overly broad ways. Holms talks about the possibility of “no connection” between atheism and morality, but that can’t quite be true in its literal sense, right? I mean, once you have a meta ethical system for describing how one should reason from facts about the world into ethical principles, your atheism is a fact about the world to be used in that work.
right then. I’ll show myself out before I get entirely too esoteric and off topic. Because I’m sure that hasn’t happened yet.
That photoshop would be printed on high quality art stock, framed and on my wall if it had included me!
I can’t believe there are still people talking about Atheism+. They were so upset that by trying to create a category that was explicitly not “dictionary atheism,” we were trying to take over atheism and impose our values over all of it that they drove the entire movement out, and they’re still complaining about it all these years later. And still accusing people of trying to sully and take over atheism with social justice. At this point, the shitbags complaining about Atheism+ have talked about it considerably more than the people who were involved with it.
It’s strange to see these self-described dictionary atheists in the comments at that video and elsewhere complaining about anyone “taking over” atheism or trying to tie it to social justice. Why do they care? If atheism isn’t anything more than disbelief in gods, why would anyone care enough what other people do with it? Furthermore, why don’t they go after Sam Harris for trying to sully it with philosophy? Or Richard Dawkins for trying to sully it with biology? Or Michael Shermer for trying to sully it with misogyny? Why don’t they apply this “dictionary only” complaint to all the other people with other worldviews that aren’t a part of dictionary atheism? :thinking face emoji:
Like, I’m a dictionary tennis player. I am a person who occasionally plays tennis. I don’t pop into threads to harangue people about trying to sully tennis with product endorsements or tournaments or fitness philosophy. I certainly don’t make videos about how I’m a tennis player and nothing else in my life or philosophy connects with that aspect of myself. It would be rather silly if I did, wouldn’t it? If I went around talking about the importance of tennis and how all reasonable people should play tennis and there shouldn’t be movements to increase diversity among tennis players and we need to defend famous tennis players from allegations of sexual misconduct, it would seem like I was more than just someone who occasionally liked to play tennis, wouldn’t it?
Crip, Chigau, & Giliell.
You should form a band and call it wagon..
John,
There is no incompatibility between being an atheist and not saying “I am an atheist”.
Also, a believer and a non-believer can have secular or religious ethics or a combination of the two, so there is no-contradiction in saying that my atheism does not inform my ethics. I can borrow from both secular and religious views. Hell, sometimes they even agree.
Hmmm….maybe the C C & G band wagon could hire you as a sound technician.
billyjoe
never had a lick of sense
I guess that might be … some … clever … take … on … something … but
what say gals? should we?
Me?
I cannot play any instrument and a cannot carry a tune in a bucket with a lid.
I expect I could drive the van.
and, billyjoe, you have a … strange “interpretation” of John Morales
chigau,
You should be just fine…look who you got as your sound technician!
BTW, my iPad insists on changing your name to chihuahua.
Maybe they know something that would explain a lot.
Wow, we just cross-posted.
I wonder what that means.
But maybe let Johnny reply for himself I’m sure he is big boy now.
BJ:
I made no such claim about this purported incompatibility.
I made no such claim about this purported dichotomy.
I made no such claim about this purported dichotomy.
—
PS
chigau was not replying for me.
—
The question you’ve noticeably ignored: “Since your personal ethics are connected to your disbelief in gods (or, as you would have formerly put it, your atheism), do you find it difficult to accept that movement atheism (that is, the collective of those who publicly endorse atheism) might have a similar connection to its ethical stance?”
@chigau:
I’d be honored, and very, very pleased (which is different) to have you driving the van for the Giliell & Seedy tour.
CD
Had you ever sat in a car with me at the wheel, you would not be so blasé.
But I’m still good to go.
As long as Giliell is on board. There is a time zone lag.
John Morales would be a terrifying roadie.
billyjoe would be good as soylent green.
Honoured to be with you, friends.
I can sing approximately 9 different notes, play a flute and find stations on the radio.
Yeah, but that should help me sleep through the driving.
I think I’ll stick to roadkill and dwarf bread.
I have mixed opinions on Noel. I detect some alright character underneath it all, but he is apparently irrationally obsessed with the purity of atheism, as he sees it. Like many people, I suppose.
The most interesting thing about this instance is that he’s been keeping that fire burning of old school youtube atheism for lo these many years. And his style is still mired in that old functionality of the site itself which had vloggers endlessly yammering back and forth in video based static debates.
Things have moved so far on from this now that you’re either a long form essayist or a streamer, bolstering your enormous patreon audience as much as possible.
Christina Radd reappearing and now PZ responding to him directly in video form must make him just want to party like it’s 2009.
Very few people are all bad, but someone can still be entirely worthless in a specific context and/or for a specific purpose. A cork-puller is entirely useless for curing diabetic retinopathy. Doesn’t mean a cork-puller is all bad or entirely useless generally.
Noelplum99 was entirely useless – even counterproductive – in comments here. That doesn’t mean Noelplum99 is entirely evil or even net-evil. It doesn’t mean the Noelplu99 is entirely useless in general or even generally lacking positive net utility. But I wouldn’t want Noelplum99 back for any reason.
I agree that Noelplum99 appeared to want to do good, but I don’t think any good was actually accomplished by Noelplum99’s comments.
Giliell,
You play the flute. That is one of my favourite instruments, though I can’t play it myself. One of my favourite groups is Jethro Tull. JT is really Ian Anderson who writes all the songs and lyrics, sings (pretty well till he developed a vocal cord papilloma requiring surgery; same happened to Bjork), and plays a variety of instruments. However the most distinctive characteristic of JT is Ian Anderson’s flute playing. Apparently, because he was self-taught, his fingering was all wrong, which he only found out when his daughter started playing. He had to re-learn how to play the instrument from scratch and subsequently produced a whole album which was just him and his flute playing with a symphony orchestra all of which he arranged himself.
John,
I’ve got no idea what you’re on about.
Please, just follow this chain:
I do NOT define myself by what I do NOT believe in.
Therefore, I AM not an atheist
That is NOT how I define myself
True, I do not have a belief in gods.
But I define myself by what I DO believe in.
I DO believe in humanism
Therefore, I AM a humanist.
If you don’t understand that, I can’t help you.
BJ, it was a simple question.
But fine, you aren’t an atheist, you merely lack belief in deities.
You believe that you don’t believe in gods. Even though you are not an atheist.
Heh. A ≡ ¬(¬A).
(If you don’t understand that, I can’t help you)
Can’t really help you, John, if you’re just going to inisist on not understanding or misunderstanding. Maybe think outside your box or something.
Hey, I’m not the one asserting I’m not an atheist because the term’s definition is privative.
You’ve asserted “I am a person who does not believe in gods” and “I AM not an atheist” — “And I am going with the dictionary definition”.
You’ve also asserted that “The fact that I do not believe in gods is connected to the fact that my ethics are not religious”, but you don’t get why I asked you about a similar relationship between the atheist movement and its ethics.
(You know the old adage — silence signifies assent)
Hard concept, a movement being ethical, its institutions having ethical rules, its public proponents reflecting its ethics. Because of the dictionary, apparently.
I would like to join the band. Traveling around with CD, Giliell, chigau, and John Morales as roadie sounds like a marvelous adventure.
Tethys
Can you cook?
One-pot-meals on a camp-stove?
I am NOT not an atheist.
chigau
I can! My musical skills are far less practiced than my camp cook skills. I will bring along the coffeepot that works great on a campfire, and a tamborine. I can actually sing passably too, but maybe we should invite rq?
Tethys
Sounds good. We could get a bigger van.
@ billyjoe, #51
Have you heard Blood Ceremony? Alia O’Brien’s flute solos, vocals, and organ playing are amazing (she’s also a big fan of Jethro Tull). I’d particularly recommend the songs Ballad of the Weird Sisters and Half Moon Street to first time listeners.
I see they’re a Canadian band – home of Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, and Leonard Cohen (I have eclectic tastes!). Nice sound with the flute. I found a live version of “Ballard of the Weird Sisters” but it was from the audience and poor quality. I liked the studio version, but I always like to see a live performance. Some bands suck live. However, there was a very good live version of “Half Moon Street”. One comment was “more flute”. Unfortunately you can’t play flute and sing at the same time! Her style does remind me of JT though she leaves out the vocalisations – Ian Anderson attributes this to Roy Harper’s influence. And she doesn’t stand on one leg – probably wise because JT fans came to expect it at every concert.
…when I said “vocalisations”, I meant the grunts and groans that accompany the flute playing, not the singing.
rq should definitely be in the band, or at least come on the road trip with us.
CD #65
Road Trip!,!!
someone else hasta drive, I’ve had afew
That’s eclectic? I like John Prine, Mariza, and Gilberto Gil (among many others).
Maroon,
Are you really trying to tell me that Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, and Leonard Cohen belong in the same genre? Also, I was talking about Canadian artists. Yours are from all over the globe.
Joni Mitchell, herself is eclectic in her tastes borrowing from folk, rock and jazz; as is Neil Young: hard rock, soul, country, folk; though Leonard Cohen is pretty uni-dimensional folk music, but a master of the genre.
I heard someones say “Road Trip”. I will learn to play the saw especially just for this trip; I find it the perfect accompaniment to the white male whining in his natural environment. Really adds that touch of character so often missing, plus it drowns out the words, leaving behind only the hurt feelings, and my soul is then satisfied.
Crip Dyke, Chigau, Giliell and rq? I’d follow that wagon to the end of the world. Stellar humans the lot of ‘em. And if it happened to run over billyjoe along the way, well, I suppose I’d drag him to the ditch. Wouldn’t want anyone else to have deal with his slyme.
Shit. John too, sorry.