A site called “Biblical Gender Roles” contains a terrible list of 8 steps to confront your wife’s sexual refusal. There are so many assumptions packed into that site, there doesn’t seem to be much point to arguing over the details — first thing to fix would be this Biblical attitude that women are chattel who must be subservient to their husband’s commands. The author is very concerned about this little problem:
How should you as a husband handle it when your wife directly refuses to have sex without a valid reason? Is there anything a Christian husband can do about this?
I wish he’d explained what a “valid reason” would be. I think “I don’t want to” is a valid reason, so maybe all of this Christian writer’s steps are irrelevant. But here’s all of his advice to control an uppity wife.
Step 1 – Rebuke her privately
She must learn that she is not an autonomous human being, so you must rebuke her when she her desires do not align with yours.
Step 2 – Rebuke her before witnesses
What? She still resists? Tell everyone she’s been bad. Take her to a marriage counselor, but not one of those counselors who might take her side — be sure it’s a Christian marriage counselor.
Step 3 – Bring her before the Church
Tattle to your pastor! I like how this guy assumes that if she’s not submitting to him, she must have become an atheist.
If your wife has not repented and changed her ways after these three steps, you are sure to have a very angry and defiant wife. The little bit of sex there was in your marriage is most likely completely gone. At this point your wife will have either completely rejected her faith, or she will have at least completely rejected your church and their views of sexual denial in marriage.
So that’s why all the recent polls show an increase in the number of women in atheism.
Step 4 – Stop taking her on dates or trips
Because the only way a Christian wife gets out of the house is if her husband takes her.
Step 5 – No unnecessary household upgrades
Because only a woman would care to maintain a home. Christian guys are content to live in a cave somewhere.
Step 6 – Stop doing the little extra things
For a Christian husband to cook or vacuum is an “extra” — just go full time loafin’.
Step 7 – Remove her funding
All the money in your relationship is YOURS — the Christian wife has nothing, owns nothing, does everything. She can be controlled like a slave.
Unfortunately, he stops there. He doesn’t realize what every woman knows, which completely negates all of his rebuking and controlling: semen causes cancer, so the poor Christian woman faces a terrible dilemma: allow the evil man-beast to inject her with foul toxins, or he’ll stop vacuuming once a week.
I think I learned that on Zardoz.
I am surprised that there is no offer to entice her into sex. Such as “if you allow me in you, I will take you hat shopping. We won’t buy any, but you can try them on.”
or she thinks she should not have to do it except when she is in the mood
WTF? You vile, disgusting, slimy, amoral piece of shit. FUCK YOU and your fucking stone-age morals.
From the About Me:
Turns out he’s a straight white man. Who would have guessed?
Oh, and…
“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:9)
My sister married a guy like this Godbot many many years ago. When they were dating and he was studying for his doctorate in woo-woo, I offered him an Anglican essay on the premise that men and women are equal under God. (I was concerned about my sister’s choice.) He went through it and ‘corrected’ it all, sentence by fucking sentence while stroking/stoking his Bible-tool and his all-knowing peanut. My sister married the guy. I quit the church and started writing poetry. We all lived happily ever after…
Sleazeballs be sleazeballs, and some use religion to justify their sleaziness.
The first three are the standard prescription for what to do when someone you have influence over is sinning.
The rest of them… sheesh. (and he can’t count to the 8 steps of his own title?) It’s interesting – women who have husbands who are sinning in various ways are always “counseled” to shut up and be really nice to their husbands, so as to provide a positive example of being a forbearing Christian because only love and obsequiousness will be the example that leads him back to God. But when faced with a backslidden wife, this guy is saying the way to deal with it is the exact opposite, to force her into submission by punishing her.
And I’m sure the way to make your wife want to have sex with you more is to be mean to her, stop paying attention to her, and treat her like a kid you’re withholding allowance from. Sure. That will work.
Somehow, I don’t think this guy even represents his own local church.
I would love to see a video of his following his own advice and telling witnesses that his wife won’t have sex with him. I’d anticipate a lot of pointing and laughing.
Step 8 is divorce, for those wondering (it’s just not presented as a list item). Now I’ve spared you from reading the article, which I don’t recommended unless you need an emetic.
It’s getting to the point where I can no longer be surprised by this kind of crap. Christian conservatives are fucking morons.
They exist, breed and voter. A trifecta of evil. Or at least venality.
oh deary me… I was reading those first three steps so wrong, strawmanning them for abusiveness.
I.E. I kept reading “rebuke” as synonym for “slap”, or “hit”, or “beat”. As in:
First, doit privately, then as a spectacle, and ultimately _in_church_, for the congregation of brethren to cheer, pray, be taught truth, etc, etc.
my atheism getting the better of me to put all these biblethumpers into a single basket of awfullness.
Step 8 – Be horribly surprised by the lawsuit and divorce papers.
steps 4,5&6 are more simply stated as a single step:
“Silent Treatment”
or
“Withhold <stop>”
so my atheism-delusion read these 8 steps as:
1) slap her into submission
2) shame her into submission
3) withhold any consideration
4) problem solved
Never a single moment of anything approaching introspection, and blaming all the perceived evils in your life. That’s the right wing Christianity I know.
*Blaming all the perceived evils in your life on women.
See, this is really easy.
Step 1: You have to accept that your desire for sex does not entitle you to sex. Not from anyone, including your spouse.
Step 2: You have to accept that any reason she gives for not having sex is a valid reason for not having sex and your approval or disapproval of that reason, while it may be taken into consideration (though it most certainly does not have to be), ultimately it is irrelevant.
Step 3: You say something to the effect of “Ok. I respect your decision. When (or possibly if) you change your mind, would you please inform me? Meanwhile I’m going exercise one or both my hands.”
Ooooh, I think I’ll hop on over and reprint my comment on that blog…wonder how long it will last.
My, my. Well, my marriage experience exceeds more than 36 years,* and I can say with complete confidence that you’re doing it wrong.
*Bonus for me, because no divorce included.
Ugh.
The guy responds to one comment with this:
That commenter is an idiot, Tony.
My marriage (first and only for both of us) is over 35 years now. I know, not particularly long – but more than twice his ‘marriage experience’ (a phrase which shows that he knows nothing about what marriage can be).
1. Always communicate freely with your spouse(s)/partners(s) about everything, and always exercise mutual respect. That way you’ll always know how each is feeling, and never be disappointed by initiating intimacy with anyone who isn’t in the mood, and will never, EVER be of the mindset that anyone ‘owes’ sex in any way, shape or form.
2. Never feel that sex is the only way to explore love with one another. It’s supposed to be mutual pleasure, not fun for one/some and a duty for the other(s). Sex with someone who doesn’t want it is rape; marriage doesn’t magically confer ongoing consent. If someone has ‘gone off’ sex, then discuss the reasons with them, and (if possible) consider solutions together.
Those solutions will differ according to the reason(s) for the lack of desire. None of the solutions will ever include any form of coercion or punishment; physical, emotional or psychological.
I foresee another divorce in that man’s near future, if that list is an example of how he sees other people.
re Tony @19
cheers for reading that bile (and sparing us from attempting).
That quote is exactly what I’ve gotten from my reads of the Bibble, and why I _believe_ the Bibble is a cacophony of vile misogyny+misandry=misanthropy.
Be sure to check out the same dude’s “12 ways to honor your wife” – these include “praise her efforts to make herself sexy for you,” “praise her cooking,” and “praise her submission”
David @ 22:
I read most of his front page posts, and sprinkled throughout the biblical inanity, there were sound, common sense bits. There’s nothing wrong with praising your partner, whether it’s for cooking a tasty meal, or being tastily sexy. There’s more than enough to legitimately criticize (like the submission nonsense) without going after fairly normal stuff.
I have never understood why women put up with this crap — if I were dating an obvious control freak like this I’d head for the hills — but some do, and that’s a big part of the problem. Some men treat women like doormats because they know there’s a certain percentage of women who will allow themselves to be treated like doormats.
I do draw a distinction between “I don’t want to have sex with you right now but I may later” and “I don’t ever want to have sex with you again.” The latter is basically begging your spouse to have an affair.
#24 eeyore
It is my opinion that the advice given by the Good Christian Husband in the OP on how to deal with the former is certain to lead to the latter.
If I were the person who was in the position of being married to that GCH, why would I care if someone who is so horrible to me that I never want to have sex with them ever again had an affair? More ammunition for the inevitable divorce.
slithey tove @21:
Oh I didn’t read very much. I copy/pasted my comment above (#16) and then read a few comments in the thread. It didn’t take long for me to close that tab out of disgust.
Kinda says it all, really. That vaunted godly one-man-one-woman marriage isn’t about love, it’s all about locking down a sex partner for life.
“Step 7 – Remove her funding”
So according to Biblical Gender Roles, marriage is explicitly a sex-for-money deal.
According to Biblical Gender Roles, marriage is prostitution.
Got it.
Rey Fox @ 27:
But it leads to love!
David @22
That’s perfectly fine, doesn’t even require any justification.
That’s perfectly fine, doesn’t even require any justification.
BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH
I was trying to think of something witty, but this is such a horrible story, all my inspiration just flew out of the window.
Now going to kiss my wife and tell her I love her.
So, this guy’s advice if your wife says “no” to having sex with you is to be a complete asshole to her. Yes, that will definitely improve the situation, and start getting you all the sex you want. /sarcasm.
“semen causes cancer” – that’s the opposide message from what catholic priests and nuns teach teenagers and young couples in Poland. They say that semen contains some mysterious substances which keep women healthy, and that’s the reason you should never use condoms.
This guy sounds quite similar to the little I know of my father, and why my mother divorced him.
I saw this article yesterday, and it’s horrifically disgusting and sad. Some of the comments under the article are even worse, like where the author of the piece explains that these steps are not manipulative but rather because it’s only manipulation if the manipulator is equal to or beneath their target. Since men are the betters of their wives, it is impossible to manipulate them. On the other hand, if wives try steps 4-7, they’re sinful manipulators.
He explains it all in great detail. And I think I’m going to be sick.
They might as well just go full Ferengi.
So, Biblically you’re supposed to fuck first, then find out whether you like each other? Or does that follow automatically from the fucking? (Hint: No).
Of course, he’s being simplistic (and he’s a Biblical Christian. But I repeat myself). In “Modern Western” culture, while the relationship starts with fondness, it leads to a virtuous circle of in which the fondness and the sex reinforce each other.
Oh, and I’m another one with over twice the length of “marriage experience” this guy has, only all on the same marriage, largely because we ignored this kind of advice 35 years ago.
I don’t understand the 8 steps.
Because any reason = valid reason
Also, yes, telling other people in public that your wife doesn’t want to fuck you would be the last thing normal people would even consider, because in a world where sex is voluntary and a sign of desire for you, people point and laugh.
But in a world where sex is your holy duty, people just point.
Men.
We suck.
Really, we just suck. We suck so badly.
Women (all of you): I’m sorry. I’m sorry we men suck so badly. I promise I will try not to suck like this. I really do promise.
I’m sorry.
Really, I just don’t know how else to respond to this. I’m sorry.
If I dress up sexily for my husband I want him to react to that by treating me sexily, and by telling me how sexy I am. I don’t want to be praised for trying to please him like a well trained dog. This suggestion is also offensive.
I was taught this crap when I was a born again Christian; it works on some people, it worked on me for a while and I spent a lot of time thinking I was a bad Christian because I hated it. I was told I wouldn’t be happy until I learned to submit to men (yep, men. I was unmarried).Regardless of how wrong they were.
caine #23 and some bastard on the internet #30
What gave me an icky feeling about the “praising” for “cooking” and “efforts to make herself sexy for you” was my absolute certainty that if he has or did make a list for women concerning their men it would include “praising” him for “providing” and “leadership”. Not fucking cooking or prettying himself up for her.
It blatantly implies that the womenz belong in the kitchen and pleasing the man, to me.
I am, of course, not telling you how to be offended or what to be offended by.
tkreacher @ 41:
Yes, you’re right. I was thinking of the normal considerations in a relationship, rather than bible-based nonsense.
Let’s see. The last time the Redhead cooked for me was just before her stroke. I’m sure this mini-micro-man would dump a handicapped woman for one who would take care of his needs in nothing flat. And these mini-micro-men wonder why they are looked down upon…..With excellent reasons.
The marriage rules of the Old Testament would hold true only if the wife was purchased from a reputable dealer/father who can guarantee his daughter’s virginity.
Otherwise, she must be taken captive at an age too young for her not to be a virgin.
In either case, she is henceforth the husband’s property and must therefore submit to his desires.
However:
A marriage certificate nowadays cannot be construed as a bill of sale.
Nor do civilized Christians still carry off female children for sex.
None of these 8 rules can therefore apply.
Notice that nowhere on that list is “talk to her and ask her what’s wrong and see if there’s something you can do”. For all he knows, it’s as simple as that he only ever tries to initiate sex late at night when she’s really tired, and if he switched to earlier in the evening he’d get better reception. Or she’s feeling resentful that she does all the housework and him pitching in to do his share would make her more interested in him. Or any number of hundreds of things that he would never even think of if he didn’t ask.
Now where did I see where helping with or doing the dishes is a turn-on? Oh yes,
I have always dried the dishes, even after we had dishwashers, and it was just big stuff that wouldn’t fit….
Reminds me of a conversation I overheard, where my sister’s first abusive husband demanded: “We’ve been married for three years already! When are we going to have a child in the family?” Her reply was: “When you let me out of the house for the night.”
I’m beginning to understand your need for advice from an experienced marriage mentor, Tigger_the_Wing. Fortunately, our conservative Christian friend at Biblical Gender Roles is no rookie. He has experienced twice the number of marriages you have, and appears to be preparing for another one in the near future.
Does anyone else get “this is in the Koran” vibes from this?! I seem to remember a sura along the lines of “And if she will not submit, then shun her, deny her your bed, rebuke her, and finally beat her.”
If we ever needed any more proof that these people are Christian Taliban this crap is it. So glad to be a lesbian sometimes! Ick, ick, ick!
This man would have a very bad reaction to a utopian story about matriarchal societies where women exercise control over men.
Going to write one now and send it to him, with love.
Marissa van Eck @48:
Hmmm, since we (speaking of USAmericans here) grow up in a patriarchal, sexist, and misogynistic culture, everyone is affected to one degree or another. We can see one of the effects of that in the horrid beliefs of biblical gender role dude. But I wonder how that affects people in same-sex relationships (I’m sure it does, just not sure how).
Women should know their limits!
From the author, quoted in #3 by Saad
I’m 39 and my “total marriage experience” is one marriage of nine years and counting (plus five years of us two “living in sin” prior to that).
Never once in all that time have I felt the need to pressure my wife into sex because Jesus, scold her when she didn’t feel like it or tattle on her to some paternal authority figure outside our relationship (this could be because we’re both mature enough to discuss any legitimate issues ourselves, with grownup talk). Likewise, Dr Mrs has never once beefed when I didn’t feel like it (yes, men can not feel like sex and yes, women can initiate it) because she, like me, is an educated and mature adult who understands that humans in intimate relationships don’t get to dictate moods and emotions and desires to their partners.
You, on the other hand, appear to have been educated to believe that your penis is the centre of the universe and to deny it entrance, regardless of the desires of who is to be entered, is tantamount to blasphemy. Might I suggest parking your trouser-god in your carpal tunnel if for whatever reason your lady wife doesn’t want a bar of you; might I further suggest that she might be entirely justified in rejecting said bar if you treat her as much like a mute & malleable sex doll as your words imply.
Nerd
That’s why you’ll always be much more of a man and a person than they’ll ever be
I had to look up the site to make sure it wasn’t a deliberate parody. Well, it isn’t. A creepy place.
This… this is just a guide on how to rape someone through coercion. Straight up, no frills, escalating methods on how to exploit inequity, create punitive situations, or apply social pressure to coerce a person who didn’t want to fuck you to acquiesce to make it stop. All with a hearty pat on the back on how you didn’t “take it by force” like “brutish men” and praising the victim for “learning her place”.
In a world that wasn’t a rape culture, in a world that actually gave one goddamn about consent this would immediately prompt a visit from the cops, but as it is, there’s a mighty large pile of dedicated anti-feminist Christian types clapping along with this and saying “how right”.
Step 4 – Stop taking her on dates or trips
Considering that rules out a lot of obvious romantic occasions — the sort of thing that, in a healthy relationship, tends to lead to mutually enjoyable horizontality — this seems counter-productive, even in its own terms. It’s in “Beatings will continue until morale improves” territory.
Come to think of it, I recall reading pretty much the opposite advice in *evangelical* marriage books, 35+ years ago — that guilting your wife into sex is wrong on both ethical and pragmatic grounds.
Actually, no. That is the evolutionary reason for hidden ovulation and constant sexytime. If people keep constantly boinking for pleasure, it leads to love. Or so say two of my evolution books, one of which was written by Richard Dawkins his ownself.
(And geeze, you can’t handle fondness leading to sex, if we put marriage in there first? What kind of hateful arranged marriages happen in your world?)
Cerberus,
Yup.
Forcing someone to have sex with you they do not want to have is rape. Rape has been the standard straight sex for ages. The only sex women were allowed to have was sex they were required to have. This is where the belief that men like sex more than women do comes from. It’s also where the myth that men are more turned on by seeing a nude woman than women are by seeing a nude man and together those are excuses men use to blame women for being raped. They can’t help it, o it is up to us to cover up, stay home and not get ourselves raped.
Women like sex as much as men. They just don’t like being raped. Being forced to marry or prostitute yourself for survival meant women were unlikely to get much joy from sex, not that women’s joy was ever the point of sex under patriarchy. It’s no wonder men thought women only wanted sex for babies or affluence. Children must have been the only bright spot in a “respectable” woman’s life. (And you better be respectable because we all know what men do to punish “sluts”) When you are not allowed ambitions of your own, marriage is required for survival and is basically sexual slavery, you may as well try for the highest bidder.
The same goes for the claim women sleep their way to the top when it’s more likely that a woman could not make it to the top without being sexually harassed, raped by coercion or just plain forced by men in power. When she didn’t give up and get back in the kitchen, her success was attributed to the abuse she received being her design rather than something she succeeded despite of. She was using the men who hurt her, not overcoming them. That’s always been the way and not much has changed. People are leaving religion, but that means nothing.
Gods aren’t required for men to present rape of women as moral, women’s fault or some scam to profit from. Evopsych “scientists” and secular philosophers have no trouble finding excuses for these same claims without religion. So, even if a woman escapes a religion that tells her she can’t say “no” and punishes her if she does, she’ll just find more of the same patriarchal bullshit in male dominated secular communities.
This is why feminism comes first for me. When there is nowhere to run, you have to fight.
Here’s a fun exercise. Change it to be about how to deal with a husband who keeps wanting to have sex when you don’t. Keep everything else the same.
wut?
DanDare @ 59:
“Here’s a nice new pump-top bottle of Aveeno hand cream, dear. Have fun!”
That is just so horrible in so many different ways. His assumption that he is owed sex. The way he seems to believe that he gets to say what is and is not a “valid reason” for her to refuse. The fact that he thinks dragging her in front of your family friends and telling everyone how frigid she is constitutes a reasonable “second step”. And I find the bit about to be quite revealing. Loveless marriage? Wife losing interest in sex? Don’t address the underlying problems and attempt to make her feel loved and wanted, just remind her it’s her Christian duty to put out every now and then!
DanDare,
If genders of people involved were in any way different it would still be abusive, coercive and the resulting sexual encounter would be rape.
Regarding whatever point you were trying to make…. the situation can’t be “the same” the moment genders of participants are different. The part of the social dynamic that allows one person to hold so much sway over another changes, and since that is one of the essential facets of the situation, it changes everything.
For example, step2 : rebuke her before witnesses
Imagine a scene where a man is doing this to a woman.
Done?
Now imagine it is a woman doing that to a man. There are probably some differences in what kinds of thing she tries to guilt him for, what “manly” characteristics she accuses him of not having, etc.
Then there’s non-heterosexual couples. There’s couples where someone is not cis.
All different because of different social contexts different relationship inhabit.
Now that I’m going further off topic, you can also add a racial of classist element to all this – those all make for different situations, even for the primary patriarchal example.