This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
Come to think of it, the last guy I had sexy funtimes with was bisexual. I remember talking with him about his estranged wife who he didn’t love any more. They were in the process of getting a divorce, and she was seeing another guy. In any case, he told me that he’d encountered resistance in the gay community to bisexual men or women. He was a little hesitant to tell me he was bisexual. I just nodded and said ‘ok’. It wasn’t a big deal to me, and it didn’t make him any less attractive to me. I was just happy that he found me attractive and wanted to be with me. I suspect he appreciated that.
On a completely different note:
http://www.themarysue.com/disney-star-wars-villains/
My favorite is Darth Maul.
But Xanthe, I think you’re agreeing with Dan Savage! Look, I’ve listened to his podcast since it started, and he’s referred to what he *used* to think – and he’s speculated once or twice that celebs who’ve come out as bi are actually gay (as turned out to be the case with Tom Daley, Savage himself – and Tony!).
I’ve never heard Dan Savage say that bisexuality doesn’t exist or support the opinions you describe in your post. I’ve heard him describing that effect as a problem and saying that he thinks the only way to solve it is to have more publically identified bisexuals.
Maybe there’s a twist that I’m missing as a straight guy living in a country that at least has most of the sexuality stuff sorted out (although the sexism and racism needs some work here), but I’m pretty sure he’s on the side of the angels on this one.
Derek V,
It would be helpful in increasing the number of people who come out as bi if people, especially those with a large audience, stopped speculating that celebrities who say they are bi are actually gay. This is discouragment that Dan Savage contributes, you have heard him do so. It’s not the only issue, but it’s one that you acknowledged in your comment.
I suspect I’m pansexual. My wife go to me first and I did not experiment a whole lot, but my porn connection is a little difficult to explain any other way. From that perspective I can say what I have seen bisexuals complain of, but practicing and open bisexuals will have more valuable anecdotes.
From what I gather the existence of bisexuality and other psychological states (no moral connotations, things as broad as optimism and pessimism are states here as well), can conflict with how other people affected by similar issues interact with those issues. Bisexuality is rendered functionally invisible and marginalized by some people who are same and oppositely sex attracted exclusively, in a way reminiscent of how transexuals have been neglected and marginalized (with it’s own set of excuses and rationalizations).
Some people who have no choice in what they are attracted to find it difficult to act as if others have that choice, especially when some of the politics associated with sexual attraction depend on arguments demonstrating lack of choice. Also just as there are heterosexuals that are grossed out by the thought of homosexual sex acts, there are some homosexuals that are grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex acts. Some humans just have problems controlling their reactions and the thought that a partner is “switching sides” might cause some squick.
As for issues related to people like Savage using slurs, the problem is that in addition to the offensive content many slurs are complicated packages of cultural information that perform more like “wild cards” in discourse. The usefulness of such words has to be balanced with the effects and society is arguing about how we should make that calculation. I’m willing to drop many bits of gender and racial terminology but some I still use if they have some value. For example while “bro-” has lots of legitimately offensive gender associations, I keep using “Brony” because this one is mostly about breaking gender stereotypes even if some of us are still misogynistic assholes. Things like “cunt” don’t really have any usefulness that directly challenges the inherent negatives in such a manner.
Creating awareness of human diversity requires creating new conceptual categories, but those new categories will end up getting mixed up with the same old crappy system of biases and group-think that we need to fight on a generic level.
Xanthe:
Yeah, all this.
I came out when I was 12 (knew before then), and it’s been one load of shit ever since, from every faction imaginable.
Derek:
Oh yeah, that’s helping. Fuck Savage.
::The Queer Shoop hastily clears all hard surfaces away and removes all jewelry from his hands; must avoid near fatal headdesk/facepalm combo::
(emphasis mine)
I’m really quite surprised that the overwhelming number of comments following the above article are positive, rather than racist douchebaggery.
Brony:
I was one of those homosexuals. I remember when I first started posting here, I made some comment about not understanding why anyone would like having sex with a woman. Josh (spokesgay) criticized me (rather mildly, IIRC). He said something to the effect that my comments were sexist (or misogynist; sorry, this was more than 4 years ago, so I don’t remember the exact wording). At the time I didn’t understand how my words were sexist.
It took a few years, but I finally grokked it.
There’s nothing wrong with having sex with a woman. Not only that, but just as some people assert that women are unknowable (men are from mars, women are from venus), I was treating heterosexual sex as something unknowable, mysterious, and freaky. I was othering.
I’m sorry I ever did that, and I’m glad he called me out on it.
Boss: “C’mon in here for a moment.”
Me: “Sure. What do you need?”
Boss: “Tomorrow we have 55 Cub Scouts coming in and . . . .”
No panic attack yet. Tomorrow should be fun.
For a really bad definition of fun.
Shit, that’s a bad day alright, Ogvorbis. At least you have a tiny bit of prep time.
Wow Ogvorbis, that sounds hard. Friends are here if you need us.
Ogvorbis:
I’m sorry my friend. Like Inaji said, perhaps this prep time can be of help.
And like Dhorvath said, we’re here for you anytime you need, as long as you need.
Oh brother. I don’t know why I’m trying to engage Pazvante…
Surprise, surprise, a recent study shows that same sex parenting is not harmful to their children:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-05/children-raised-by-same-sex-couples-healthier-study-finds/5574168
Comment on fundie critcism of the study:
I have zero difficulty believing sexism was at play here.
Ogvorbis
*hugs* and support. We’re here for you.
Surprise, surprise.
The Vatican will not fully cooperate with authorities investigating child sexual abuse cases:
Helping to bring child rapists to justice is inappropriate? The fuck?!
OK, I went back and looked for everything I could find that he wrote:
Initial announcement: http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/12/02/olympic-diver-comes-out
“The bisexual community gains a high-profile, doe-eyed spokesmodel.” is all he said.
It was actually Andrew Sullivan who predicted he’d come out as gay (just like Sullivan himself had) and Savage wrote this when he came out as gay: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/04/03/brit-diver-tom-daley-isnt-bisexual
@ brony
We discussed the interface between robotics and environmental sustainabilty recently. Check this out: Linky to Hydroponic robot system. Surely as beautiful as the Wright Brothers first aircraft.
I think the age of traditional agriculture will draw to a close. It is positively medieval as it stands today (even down to the feudal relationship between labour and capital) … time for something new. An entirely personalised, devolved agricultural industry based on new technologies and new ways of thinking. The New Agriculture ™ will be 20x as land efficient (hell, you can have a farm on your roof), and about 4x as water efficient. Marginal land (arid conditions) will suddenly become prime. Basements will turn into hot houses. If we can but own this new paradigm (and I believe we can), we can create something very beautiful.
Going along with what Brony said, there’s possibly a large category of people who might be bi, but not necessarily classified as such. Given that it’s still so political, is it a straight-up classification of sexual preference, or still more of a social movement identification? I’ve had fewer than a handful of relationships, all with men, and married young. In the last few years I’ve noticed hey, know who’s also hot? Ladies. Ok. But the amount of actual lived experience (or chance of any in the future), and amount of social ramifications of such, is precisely zero. Entirely theoretical. So claiming bisexuality would feel like really shitty appropriation that I have no right to. It would be like someone who revels in how “Indian” they are because they’re a quarter or an eighth or something but have never set foot on a reservation and were raised with no Indian culture and physically pass for entirely white. So not saying anything could be “hiding”, or it could be trying to be respectful that not being part of the lgbt culture means no right to claim it. Or is that also a faulty way of thinking?
theophontes
How are things in China?
Are you safe?
That’s it. The Vatican needs to be declared a rogue state. Maybe even part of Bush II’s Axis of Evil. There is now more than sufficient evidence from the actions of the Vatican itself that they are a criminal gang conspiring to cover up crimes — murder, genocide, child rape (just to name a few). Hell, with their doctrine, we could throw in canabalism.
Yeah. No problem. Raping children is not inappropriate. Transferring child rapists to new hunting grounds when the parents of the prey notice is not inappropriate. Moving rapists to other countries to avoid investigations and prosecutions is not inappropriatet. Giving the documents which catalogue the abuses of power and the abuses of people to the legal authorities? Now that is inappropriate.
In the US, we have a law called RICO — Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act — which was created to go after organized criminal gangs — specifically the Mafia.
There must me international laws that are similar. Throw the book at these rapists. Throw a bigger book at the ones who enabled the rapists. Shut down this gang of criminals, confiscated their holdings, and make the world a better place.
(much of the same goes for any large organization of churches — how many would really be surprised to find out that the LDS was doing the same thing with rapists? or either of the Lutheran churches in the US? or the SBC?)
Savage promoted that erection response study that claimed bi men don’t exist so yeah bite me when it comes to defending his spotchy track record on it.
Plus him saying basically that bi people should stick to their own kind and leave the good honest queers alone.
@ chigau
I am not involved. I cannot be. Gotta keep my nose clean and my shoes polished. At least for the next four months. You’ll notice my comments becoming more critical when I don’t face (implicitely at least) immediate deportation.
theophontes
So it’s a *Good* Day!
@chigau
Every day is a good day!
I would just like to note for the record that Public Enemy Action does not involve, in any way shape or form, the wishing of Ebil Tardigrade Overlords into the cornfield…
Ing:
Yeah, and this latest business of “his letter of the day yesterday was talking to bi people about the perceived relative difficulty of finding bi women or men for threesomes, and an appropriate term to find them.”? Not helping. At all. Because according the all mighty Savage, well, if bi people exist, they’re just super promiscuous, horny creatures who are always on the lookout for a menage a trois. Yep. (Or that the only thing a bi person is good for is fulfilling the fantasies of bicurious hetros.)
Fuck knows, we can’t be taken seriously at all, and no, we’re never ever involved in a monogamous relationship, we’re not even involved in serious poly relationships, nope, we’re ever on the hunt for threesomes! Naturally, Savage can’t ever manage one fucking time where he takes bi people seriously, and tackles how they are treated by the GL or Het communities.
In regard to the discussion over whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual: that way of looking at things is tied to the Kinsey Spectrum which was a radical challenge to the binary of straight/gay back in the 1940s. But there’s been critiques of it, and new tools being developed, one of which I’m incorporating in my workshops on camus, the Klein Grid.
Some of you might find it interesting to check out: it breaks out of assumption that only sexual experience or attraction determines sexual orientation, and brings in a number of other factors (including the assumption that things can change over time). Link goes to a good essay about it that introduces the Klein Grid as well.
http://lacigreen.tv/sexplus/sexuality/4502-problems-with-the-kinsey-scale
theophontes:
Are you drinking from the Optimist Fountain again? If so, when you’re done, I’d like a sip.
Sometimes I wonder how different society would be if various sexualities were so accepted that they were normalized. The idea that people could openly and honestly pursue other willing partners, regardless of their gender is intriguing.
There’s also sex drive – I’ve wondered if attraction is also tied to it, that if your libido is high that you’re attracted to a wider range of people/body types/genders/sexes than if it’s low, and therefore could fluctuate with age/health/etc.
@Tony
The Culture series touches upon that with it’s social libertarian techocracy. general result seems to be business as usual but mixer parties are more intense
@Carlie
Even for bi people looking for threesome or shit I can’t see how a new term helps. I mean there’s nothing wrong with doing that right.
Ing – I don’t think I follow, new term for what?
Greta has written a post about why it’s important for marginalized people to name themselves:
For all you lovers of evil creatures with tentacles: http://www.boredpanda.com/confectionery-baking-art-christine-mcconnell/
(oh, and there’s some facehuggers in there too!)
Tony!
Spider cookies!
Inspired by those facehuggers, I wondered what animal/xenomorph hybrids might look like. Leave it to the Internet:
http://jaktheterrible.deviantart.com/art/Ankylosaurus-Alien-336701715
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Tiger-Xenomorph-209112390
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Furry-Xenomorph-212807509
(the last one is a squirrel/alien; Squirlien?)
I love this site
http://www.cakewrecks.com
@ owlmirror
The Afrikaans expression is: “Gaan kak in die mielies!”
@ Tony!
Cheap Chilean wine from Park ‘n Shop.
Racist asshole in the Cumia thread, round 3.
Sheer beauty.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/triple-black-hole-system-found-in-distant-galaxy1/
Just came across this. It’s not really news to anyone around here, but it’s still good stuff.
Musical post!
Teh kids love Taylor Swift, especially 22 and Trouble.
But did you know both songs were written by the same person as Britney Spears’s … Baby One More Time.
And the Backstreet Boys Everybody (Backstreets’s Back)
Max Martin, you are pure evil. ;-)
To their credit, they’re also rocking
Johnny Nash — I Can See Clearly Now
http://www.themarysue.com/academic-journal-that-published-facebook-experiment-having-second-thoughts/
Ok, so they’re feeling a little bad. At this point, what can they do other than say “we’re sorry”?
****
Get paid to watch Netflix?
http://time.com/2963052/netflix-is-hiring-a-professional-binge-watcher/
Tony – they could retract the article entirely. It would then have a retraction note with it online, and nobody would cite it from this point on (and citation rate is the currency of papers). Plus, the authors would be looked at much more closely when they submit any papers from now on.
Billy Joel — Root Beer Rag
Not least because it’s the theme for the stupidest radio quiz show ever: Hold Your Plums.
*innocent face*
Not clicking. No way.
What is up with our current crop of trolls?
Feeble.
Pathetic.
No staying power.
chigau:
Are you referring to anyone in particular?
I’m rather surprised that we had multiple nitwits in the Cumia thread. I figured one or two, going on and on, not 5.
Course we still have liberturd aarongrow in the Molyneux thread. It’s fun to peek in and watch him still trying. If he thinks he’s going to tire Nerd out, he’s got another thing coming…
Tony!
just in general, but there’s
dandi
stanley234
kalid (he’ll be back)
Maybe it’s the weather.
Jeff Sommers is actually doing quite well as a troll
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/07/04/i-will-not-call-on-you-to-demand-anthony-cumia-be-fired/comment-page-1/#comment-819023
chigau:
Yeah, he is.
He’s also succeeded in pissing me off*, which is rare. I’m accustomed to people claiming that I’m mad when I’m not.
*no idea why for the life of me, but I won’t lose any sleep over it.
Though not exactly a ghost town, the Chinese city of Ordos is thinly populated:
Several pics can be found at the link. This town could be the perfect set for a horror movie.
Quantitative Biology center established with a $50 million dollar donation, appears to not have any biologists planned.
In the wake of the Hobby Lobby decision, there are still things I hadn’t considered about it:
Well, I failed at blockquote again. Gotta remember to preview. Last line is mine, not a part of any quote.
A little quiet time is useful for reflection and self-examination.
Okay. I need some help/advice.
Over on That’s an Awful Breakfast , a commenter, Storms, related a horrifying experience in which he was the predator. He was very careful to say that his reasoning at the time was not an excuse. He was able to, at a much later date, apologize for a rape. I supported him, pointing out that I had been/am there. Tony!, emilybites, and HappiestSadist have objected, strenuously, to the comment being made where it was, in a thread about a woman’s reaction to a rape, and wanting to rewrite her rape so it didn’t happen. HappiestSadist left this:
So here is my dilemma. Here is where I need information. How is Storms any different than I? I am dead serious on this. I confessed to my greatest failing, the afternoon that I really ceased to be an acceptable part of human society, and, for the most part, I was, and have been supported (despite a certain group (who will (I am sure) be quoting this very comment before the end of the day) who use what I did in an attempt to discredit FtB, PZMyers, Atheism+, social justice, feminism, and, well, anything that PZ has written positively about), wholeheartedly, by a kind and brutally honest commentariat. Storms has made a similar comment, in a similar (though much shorter) thread. I offered support. And apparently stand alone.
So what is different? Or is there no difference and what is being said to Storms is what the regulars here want to say to me but don’t because there is a history?
Ogvorbis:
For me, the difference (and it’s significant) is that you didn’t share your story in a thread specifically about a woman trying to cope with her rape. The times I’ve seen you relate your story has been in the Lounge or the Thunderdome. If Storms had done the same thing, I wouldn’t have had a problem. But as it was, he told *his* story in a thread about a rape survivor. Women are too often dismissed or even ignored when they tell their stories about sexual assault. A thread like that, IMO should be a place where women can, if they choose, share their tales. It’s simply not the place for a guy to come along and make it about him, no matter how apologetic he is.
I hope you understand that this makes a big difference for me.
Ogvorbis:
The other thing is–you’re a victim of rape yourself. From all indications, storms is not.
Oggie
You were an abused child.
Storms was an adult.
Tony!:
I do not remember the thread in which I admitted to becoming what my abuser wanted me to be, the time, the one time, that I, without him being there, abused someone else. I think it was a thread about coping with rape, about dealing with rape. It was a similar, though longer, thread. Last September or October? I think? So I don’t see a difference here.
@Tony.
Og did share his story in another thread, and in fact that is the mention that got the most attention from non-Horders.
But in that thread there were a number of people talking about their reactions to rape and Og, as a survivor, talked about his complicity in others’ victimization but without emphasizing how it was tied into his own rape (mentioning it, just not emphasizing it or doing any real integrative analysis of it in the comment – which I think was reasonable, we can’t all perform, we can’t **any of us** perform complex analysis of our most emotional and traumatic memories on demand, thoroughly, and articulately). I’ll have to go back and search for that thread.
Hold on. Internet is clicking and whirring.
Ah, yes. The thread – which I remembered in content if not in name – is Stunned Silence.
The entirety of the OP was
Clearly the OP left the thread open for any contribution that discusses rape as long as it is in keeping with deploring rape and the way it makes the world suck.
Og’s post was in keeping with that.
I haven’t read the “awful breakfast” story yet. Just didn’t want to. Now maybe I will. But for whatever reason, there is slightly more to the OP here. That puts Storms’ comment in a larger context providing more basis for critique.
I, however, don’t agree that storms’ post was awful or ill-placed.
Storms seems to be willing to concede it and is willing to have the post pulled. Okay, if that happens, it happens. I’m more interested in someone’s response to having error pointed out than in having people be perfect, so I feel at least minimally positively disposed to storms’ actions on that thread.
Og, likewise, was willing to have PZ pull the comment that triggered the most attention and bad feeling.
There is a qualitative difference here in that the default sense of a thread being “survivor space” should have been welcoming of Og and had no particular mandate to include storms.
So if the critique is merely that storms spoke up as a non-survivor and took attention away from survivors, then that doesn’t apply to Og’s comment in Stunned Silence and people can be non-hypocritical supporting Og and critiquing Storms’ comment on Awful Breakfast.
What should come next, though? If it’s about grappling with rape and how to stop it more generally? Well, then storms’ comment is as appropriate in awful breakfast as Og’s was in Stunned Silence and you’ve removed the ground for making a principled distinction.
This is more where I am. If we made a thread that was, “Okay rapists who regret your actions, come out of the woodwork and post here about your experience in a way that moves past rape culture and self-defensiveness and articulates something that others might find useful,” how many would actually find that a welcoming place to make that contribution? Or would there *be* stunned silence?
I strongly suspect that latter. If rape victims sharing stories – either simple stories about how much rape sucks (mundane simple stories or stories that despite being simple are quite exceptional in their writing and/or impact) or more complicated stories like Og and Jane Doe in Stunned Silence – brings out the useful stories of those who have raped but not been raped, I’m inclined to support that effect.
it’s a new effect. We aren’t used to it. Moreover, rape culture is relentless and we survivors have good reason to fear it. I don’t want to say reactions like HappiestSadist’s or Tony!’s are unreasonable or inappropriate. They are perfectly reasonable and appropriate reactions.
But that isn’t to say that storms’ comments were objectively wrong. Nor is it to say that we lose more than we gain by hearing them. Young men so frequently exposed to rape culture ought to hear – somewhere! – that these actions can have horrible consequences for them.
I agree that it ought to be enough that rape has horrible consequences for the victim, but [without systematically collected empirical evidence] I think it’s silly to think that it doesn’t make a difference in preventing rape to hear someone who learned first hand and horribly what violating another’s boundaries really means.
ultimately it’s PZ’s blog, and he’ll have to work out what he wants from threads like that. He hasn’t tended to delete those comments in the past. Rather he’s left them and the [productive] critiques of them up. I think that’s probably best.
But if it were my blog, without rebuking anyone else in any way, I’d try to make it clear that it’s okay on my blog for stories like that. I think we need them. I think we need more men speaking out against rape and we need to create room for those men to speak in inherently masculine ways, from male and masculine frames of reference.
it’s not that there’s not a good argument to be made that, as HappiestSadist contends, storms’ was a reasonable contribution to a larger discussion made in an inappropriate place.
it’s just that I believe that, like CaitieCat’s comment over on butterflies and wheels a couple days ago (or was it yesterday? sorry gone too long), there aren’t appropriate places that have been created for such comments. The places where anti-rape men who have raped in the past can speak out are limited by the expectation that they will be ridiculed in many predominantly masculine spaces. That such men look for spaces like this – a blog run by a man where threads frequently denounce rape and celebrate efforts towards ending it, including efforts in the form of story-telling – in which to make their personal-story-as-an-effort-to-end-rape contribution is as unsurprising as finding a dead fish on a beach. Oh, sure, there’s a lot more sand there than dead fish, but really: as an air-breathing land-dweller, where else are you going to find one?
Since I believe such comments are productive – as I believe do HappiestSadist and Tony!, among others – I’m willing to let the context of a lack of appropriate *and designed* spaces to make statements such as storms influence my post-hoc decisions about whether a contribution such as storms’ is an appropriate use of a space with a slightly different original design.
of course, the decision is still most subject to the purpose for which the story is told and the effect on fighting rape that the story has, but the design of the space won’t be as central to my decision as it would be to others’ decisions (it seems).
Ogvorbis:
See my #565 :)
Sorry.
Crip Dyke:
That’s the key difference for me.
I see the focus of the ‘Awful Breakfast’ being the ways in which survivors of rape cope with their assault. The ‘Stunned Silence’ thread did not have such a fine focus, thus allowing for a greater range of responses.
@Tony!
Yep. It’s a fine line. That’s why I’m not willing to condemn storms (or, in thread, to defend storms in a way that might seem to be critiquing others’ for critiquing storms).
With everyone involved clearly trying to do their best, i was happy to just let things be as they are in that thread.
It’s actually another form of the old eradication-v-harm-reduction debate. We likely need voices like storms to eliminate this shit (sexual assault and rape), but how much harm are we willing to tolerate while we’re still waiting for this shit to end? Survivors could be hurt by storms actions **right now**. How heavily should we weigh the possibility of some small future contribution to preventing a huge harm (one more rape/assault) later?
It’s literally an impossible juggling act. We make our best judgements based on how much present harm we see and how much future hope we have.
And so people who hate Pharyngula/the Horde can call me out for vocally supporting Og (and others) in Stunned Silence and then declining to do so with storms. People can try to say it’s about regulars-v-infrequent/new commenters. But I’m willing to say it’s a hard ethical question and I’m doing what I think is best in each case. I’m perfectly willing to admit that this decision is based in part on how much I trust someone to be attempting a positive contribution and that that trust (like any trust) can be influenced up or down by past experience. Plus, in this case it doesn’t matter because I judged both Og and Storms to be coming from a positive place, a let’s-end-this-horrible-shit-as-our-first-priority place. So in this case old-timer/new commenter was irrelevant.
But even if it was, fuck ’em. I have articulable ethical principles and I’m honestly using them to guide my behavior. Moreover, I’m happy to share them and recommend them as guides for others’ behavior. “I don’t trust you so I’m going to call you a rapist and/or rape apologist when I know that isn’t true” isn’t really an ethical guide I’d recommend to anyone. So I’ll put my ethics up against theirs any day of the week, and twice on Metazoan Mondays.
Oh, also wanted to clarify, that if it was *just* about expressing guilt, I would be more actively against storms’ comment than that.
I saw some educational value in Storms’ comment. It seemed like it had the potential to educate some. It mentioned pressures of toxic masculinity. It mentioned that the other person said, “No” and why that no was ignored. That sort of thing.
just guilt?
get a support group.
As for how insightful or how rare or how useful storms’ comment might be, that, again, is walking a fine line and I don’t wanna go there. Especially since part of its value might be how some would identify with Storms’ perspective and that that might make it particularly useful/relevant where I don’t ID with Storms’ perspective and have a hard time appreciating how many might or how much of a difference that would make.
But without ranking it quantitatively, I did see something more than guilt qualitatively.
Ogvorbis: I’ll clear it up, I was also referring to you. Coming onto a survivor thread and talking about raping children (not while coerced to by your rapist, I mean the ones you did all on your own) was fucked up, and yes, it does show a lack of awareness of boundaries and giving a shit about other survivors. Despite some people here being really invested in the “raped kids become rapists” meme, it’s actually not so much of a certainty.
I don’t think it’s that unreasonable to not wanna hear about how hard poor rapists have it in places mostly focusing on survivors. I left the place for a long time because it is unsafe, very unsafe.
Rapists who feel guilt should have places to talk about it. But those places should not be everywhere, and also kind of at the expense of survivors.
Happiestsadist:
From what we know, Oggie was not just raped. He was groomed. The people that violated him were training him to be a rapist. It’s quite a bit more than “raped kids become rapists”.
HappiestSadist:
Right. We can ignore the first person in that thread who wrote about being a child and victimizing another child so yeah, I was totally out of line. After all, writing about my experiences as a survivor, in response to a similar (not identical) situation for another survivor does show lack of awareness, lack of boundaries, and not giving a shit about others. So fuck this shit.
Happiest Sadist:
The thread in question was about, at least in the comments, how rape or abuse had affected survivors. But yeah, I guess us ‘poor rapists’ should just leave.
So I will.
Ogvorbis
Please don’t leave.
Orrrr, maybe develop some empathy or common sense about talking about how hard it was for you to commit rape and then throw it into threads mainly focused on survivors sharing their stories? because, like I said, it really shows that you should maybe work a little bit about understanding boundaries and what it is okay to force on others and where.
Also, I am sick to my back teeth of the “I’m such a bad person boohoo nobody loves me, please comfort me, rest of forum” thing you keep pulling when people have the audacity to bring up that they’re not that okay with what you did. Boundaries. Learn them. And stop manipulating those who care about you here (I was one) with your kicked-puppy routine. It’s very, very transparent.
Tony: Yes, and he’s said as much that his rapist was also groomed. That actually doesn’t unrape the kids he violated. It does mitigate things, but it is actually not a free pass.
Og, you drove multiple survivors away, and this place closed ranks around you. Fine. Fucking own it, be proud that as long as you spin a nice long story eliding that you victimized others until everybody loved you and was on your side first, you matter more.
Bye.
Living up to the ‘nym.
What chigau said. Ogvorbis, it is likely never going to be easy, but we are always here for you. Go easy on yourself.
More beauty.
Ogvorbis:
Please don’t go.
@chigau:
This is the place to say hard things. I support HappiestSadist in saying that and don’t think that it is sadistic to do so.
Again, I think the issue is harm reduction. I don’t want other survivors to feel unsupported because many of us support Og. I support HappiestSadist, too. But many, including HappiestSadist are going to feel unsupported because we support Og.
I don’t know how to get around that. I said before that there’s no such thing as a safe space for all survivors. Think white supremacists don’t get raped? So if we welcome all survivors, we welcome the white supremacists, right? And it’s just this universal welcoming that makes it possible for every survivor to feel welcome, right?
Wrong, of course. Even if we critique the racist behavior of a white supremacist survivor who comments here for support, the very fact that we continue to support the possibility of a known white supremacist commenting again to get survivor support is going to make a fuckload of people unwelcome.
It’s a hell of a thing to navigate for those who want to support all survivors *while* working to end rape. You can disagree with HS – even strongly – without calling sadistic HS’s interpretation of the net effect of Og’s and the Horde’s collective comments and actions.
I’ll continue to support Og because I support all survivors. And I remember the thread Stunned Silence quite well – at least 3 people told stories about victimizing others before Og added his perspective. There was a Jane Doe who even spoke specifically from the perspective of someone raped who went on to act abusively. One can critique Og without taking the time to critique the others. HS was specifically addressing Og here so there’s no mandate to address any other comments.
But the context here in which tons of comment space has been devoted to criticizing Og without criticizing Jane Doe and others is very fucked up. I wish that I could see HS’s comments apart from that context because, again, HS has no personal responsibility to address every (perceived or actual) parallel fucked up thing with equal passion. I can’t, however.
All of which puts me in a position sympathetic to Og feeling unjustly targeted and sympathetic HS’s statement that our choices in supporting one survivor have impacts on how supported other survivors feel.
The whole thing is so fucked up it’s hard to do anything that would be “right”, but I think that shots like your #580 are a lot less helpful than other things being said. That doesn’t mean I’m unsympathetic to those like you – people (including me) who aren’t Og but feel exasperated that Og seems to take the Kronosaurus’ share of the hurt in these discussions. I get why you might wanna say, “Living up to the ‘nym.”
But I find myself wishing you hadn’t. I don’t think HS deserved that.
Am I the only one seeing the disconnect there?
I think a touch more empathy and common understanding might be needed on both sides of this current debate. No?
Shorter CD:
Ogvorbis don’t go.
HappiestSadist, thank you for being willing to speak dangerously from the heart. I don’t want you to go either.
================
Separately:
I suppose this is directed implicitly at HappiestSadist b/c of comments immediately above, but I mean it to be explicitly directed at anyone who’s felt alienated or hurt by the support shown to Og:
What would it take to make others’ support of Og feel neutral or positive to you? Again, we can’t make every space supportive of every survivor, but this place has a culture. I want those who otherwise fit here and are survivors to be able to stay. I know that it’s easy to say that the myth of the good survivor/deserving survivor/good victim/deserving victim has to be trampled into the ground and quite another make common cause with someone who has done things you abhor. Is it literally impossible to support Jane Doe and Og and others abused as children who repeated that abuse before growing up AND to support people abused as children or adults who did not repeat that abuse?
@ CD
It is not just the Stunned Silence thread that is pertinent. Ogvorbis was harassed over many threads. There was a particularly vicious attack on Michael Nugent’s blog some months ago.
@theophontes:
Huh?
I’m not saying the attacks took place (primarily) on SS. I’m saying the only time that I remember Og talking about that stuff outside the Lounge/TD/TET (which cannot be characterized as “primarily” for supporting survivors because they are not “primarily” for anything in particular) was on SS.
I’m saying that the basis for HS’s critique arises from that one thread, with possible implied support as he voiced some support for storms’ contribution in the Awful Breakfast thread though he did not, in that thread (IIRC) do the same thing.
No, I’m well aware of the widespread (and frequently quite vicious) attacks on Og from non-Horders in non-FtB spaces. I think that’s part of what contributes to HS’s comment being really hard to hear for many of us, including Chigau and me.
Again, the facts that HS feels unsupported and hurt (correct me if I’ve got those feelings wrong, HS) and expresses it here are not a problem for me. But I’m well aware that it’s got to feel shitty to Og to have had a handful of people tell similar stories on the same thread, but have Og get all the crap for it. It also feels shitty for me to see him singled out.
The widespread and vicious nature of these attacks is different than HS’s criticism, but the feeling of being unjustly singled out is probably identical from Og’s perspective.
You’re not.
I don’t blame HappiestSadist for being triggered by the discussion or reacting ungraciously to being triggered, but I find their* characterization of/presumptions about intent here really disturbing. Like, is there some reason a behavior can’t be harmful to them and perhaps tone-deaf without it having to be a cold-blooded, deliberate Machiavellian manipulation?
*I don’t recall HappiestSadist’s preferred pronouns, but I believe I recall that they’re non-binary. I apologize if I’m mistaken.
Azkyroth:
Thank you. I couldn’t articulate what my problem was with Happiestsadist’s comment. This is it. I don’t want to dismiss HS’ concerns, bc they’re valid. A space for rape victims to tell their stories is important. When HS says this:
I can see this is a legitimate concern in specific threads, such as ‘Stunned Silence’.
But this:
is a separate argument, and one I *don’t* agree with. I don’t see enough evidence to support the conclusion that Ogvorbis is manipulating others. Perhaps HS has other evidence to support that conclusion, but I’m not aware of anything that would point to Ogvorbis being manipulative in such a manner.
My strong suspicion is that the reference [Living up to the nym] was not to ‘sadist’ but to the ‘M’ in RLM; but you’d have to ask.
I do, however, recall a faintly similar disagreement on a previous thread, for what that’s worth. That one, I thought, fairly earned the ‘R’.
Oh, that thread’s also full of ’Tis Himself.
Strange days.
@cm:
Thanks for the thought. Chigau is generally pretty generous, so I thought “sadist” was harsher than I expected and wondered if I might be misunderstanding something, but i didn’t come up with anything else. The M seems more in character for chigau.
There’s nothing similar about that comment.
…and oh my fucking god, for the longest time I thought I was the only one….
Reading old threads is weird. Especially with nym updates going backwards.
Well, I did say ‘disagreement’ (which went on long before and after that comment).
But, while, FTR, my first paragraph was my usual trying-to-be-helpful SH(as)P(ossibly)M(isunderstood)OTI, the second was snarky, and my memory of the events is flaky. I probably shouldn’t have added it.
*bows out*
It’s not. The critique is that some survivors are triggered by knowing they’re in the presence – even the virtual presence – of someone who has raped, and then probably triggered again if those people aren’t condemned but supported.
*sigh*
I’m sorry, Ogvorbis… that was the wrong answer. It was the worst possible answer.
1) The other people in that thread who came out as having raped someone aren’t here. There’s no point in talking about them – they won’t read it, they’re gone, I (for one) don’t even remember any of their names. You are here. You’re even a regular.
2) That “awareness” and “boundaries” thing is hard. Without a few such episodes on Pharyngula, I still wouldn’t have guessed what triggers so many survivors; I didn’t get any strong emotions from reading Storms’ comment, so I can’t just extrapolate from my own feelings to figure out that it’s a trigger. This is why survivors can trigger each other! Remember where “repellent little martyr” comes from? That’s what HappiestSadist was called by another rape survivor after both of them had accidentally triggered each other in a thread about rape. That thread was horrible to read.
I don’t think you’re deliberately manipulating people; not that I would necessarily notice (at base I’m really naïve), but I haven’t noticed any evidence pointing in that direction, so I think you’re sincere. I think what’s going on here is that people who have had (extremely) bad experiences with very manipulative people tend to see manipulation everywhere – a false positive; overactive pattern recognition.
In other words, HappiestSadist is probably being irrational. But that’s the very point. Being triggered is an irrational state – you probably can’t trigger a straw-Vulcan!
Indeed, I think that being triggered can escalate all on its own: you’re triggered, fear kicks in, you interpret everything in terms of the trigger so you’re scared even more, you lash out to make it stop, and then you interpret the reactions from other people in terms of the trigger again… As far as I can tell, I’ve seen this happen in a few Pharyngula threads (I can’t remember which people were involved).
Please, everyone, keep these things in mind when you try to figure out how what you write will come across to others.
I think you’re referring to HappiestSadist, chigau? Please confirm!
If so, do you mean the “Sadist” part or the “Repellent Little Martyr” part? If the first, it’s not that kind of sadism, if you know what I mean; if the second, see above.
sgbm is very easy to misunderstand (I haven’t completely understood him either), and he’s not entirely blameless for that – even though various expectations of Western society are to blame even more.
…even though I’m not a complete stranger to being triggered in general: I was triggered for bullying a few months ago in a Facebook conversation. Found my hands shaking.
Sadist.
Here’s the horrible thread.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/11/13/all-rape-problems-solved-for-all-time/comment-page-1/
The whole thing is full of triggers.
So, what is it that people want from Ogvorbis, then? To go away? To never speak of his own experiences? To have a list of what he can talk about and what he can’t? There’s at least one other commenter I can think of who has said vile, vicious things and who has repeatedly just gone on the defensive when confronted about it, who is still welcomed with open arms no matter how many times they spout off, so what’s the dividing line? What are the rules, then? In the main thread under discussion, someone else had already broached the topic and it was already being discussed without being condemned, so how was Og supposed to know that his contribution would be unwelcome? Maybe it would be great for OPs that are about abuse to clarify whether they are going to be threads that are survivor pain only versus survivor effects and their ramifications, but in the absence of that, and the absence of a track record on the subject, and the presence of the topic in the thread already, I don’t know how he could have been expected to know not to. That is a clearly different situation than the recent one with Storms.
Thanks. I just read it again. *facepalm*
Had forgotten there was a third survivor in it who also got triggered – and of course those three are just the ones who said it out loud.
:-(
Different people want different things, of course; I don’t expect him or anyone to fulfill all of them.
Who?
Maybe the problem here is that nobody explained to him how he ends up triggering some of his fellow survivors before I tried just now. As I said, it’s not obvious to everyone in advance, I had to have it explained to me as well.
:Quickly reads: (I have a ‘puter with a dying fan, can’t keep it running).
It seems to me that some people want to class survivors, in much the same way some feminists want to class women, excluding those who weren’t classed female at birth.
As far as I’m concerned, classing survivors is absolute shit, and anyone who is a survivor should know better. Life can be hell for those of us who have survived, and there’s no hard and fast rule for a fix. We all struggle along as best we can. Ogvorbis was a valued member of the Horde before his memories surfaced, and this place has been the one place he can talk and be honest about what he’s going through.
I think it’s very wrong to see him tossed out because someone else doesn’t much like it. Abuse is ugly, and survivorship can be, too. No, being triggered isn’t fucking fun, however, as CD went to great pains to point out, we are all responsible for our own triggers. Life isn’t trigger-proof.
Also, Ogvorbis was right to point out that others in the SS thread talked about abusing others, so he was not to know it wasn’t alright in his case. The fact that he’s a regular here doesn’t matter, and he shouldn’t be wished into the cornfield because of it.
I don’t think much of a drive-by to stir shit up against Ogvorbis, and that’s to say the least. I have to shut down now. Back whenever.
Mmmf, one more thing…in the thread Chigau linked, I wrote, in defense of HappiestSadist:
I meant what I wrote, and that includes Ogvorbis. Personally, I won’t make a case as to why he should be the exception. He shouldn’t be.
Inaji:
You seem to have bad luck with computers :(
http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/91f5212eb5831c64d8ca83a66497430e_large-600×397.jpg?9098e0
Rob Liefeld drew feet. No conveniently placed rocks, or mist-erious mist.
I did not think it was possible.
David – I don’t want to bring their name into it; they aren’t part of this argument, and I’m not going to go picking on people just to make my own point. If you can think of regulars you’ve found to be offensive, I assume you’d hit on them sooner or later; I only brought it up to indicate that what determines “offensive to the point of being no longer welcome” is an idea that is fuzzy around the edges and variable among the community here. Just as happiestsadist seems to think that this would be a better place without Ogvorbis and I don’t, there are people I’d think this is a better place without that happiestsadist (or others) might not want to go.
I really really don’t want Ogvorbis to go. I don’t want happiestsadist to go either. I don’t know what else to say, and I apologise if this is actively Not Helping.
What opposabletumbs said.
:driving by, had to conduct some business:
I’ll also quietly point out that in the horrible thread which Chigau linked, Ogvorbis expressed sympathy, support and solace towards HappiestSadist, which was gratefully accepted.
I have plenty to say, but I’ve very quickly become unexpectedly tired and have to go to bed now. See you all tomorrow.
They’re gone and have no plans of coming back. :-(
So they got Ogvorbis to leave, and then left themselves?
carlie:
It looks that way. ::Sigh::
Oggie left? Fuck. I need to read back.
Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, yes and no.
On the one hand you’re comparing HappiestSadist’s comments here to Ogvorbis, who is a person to whom horrible things were done who also did some bad things and sincerely regrets and is tortured by them and a hyperactive jerkbrain which can occasionally manifest in somewhat self-absorbed ways, to a structurally similar comment directed at a complete monster faux-Knight Templar who repeatedly and nearly fatally poisoned the Pharyngula community for me, others, and apparently even others who actually matter. One which invented a genuinely deranged vendetta against me from whole cloth when I harshly criticized the allegedly wrong reading of an ambiguously worded comment it randomly made (interpreting this as a “lie”) and then stalked me from thread to thread for something like two years (I had to take some breaks from Pharyngula during that time….), triggering the shit out of me for basically no substantial reason, reacted like fucking Sheldon from The Big Bang to even the slightest, most half-hearted attempt at poking back, is responsible for 90% of that reluctance to participate in the Thunderdome I keep vaguely referencing in the Lounge, and had to be ordered by PZ himself to stop hounding a regular, IN THE LOUNGE as I recall, who was in the middle of a breakdown and had expressed immediate suicidal ideation, over a minor point of pedantry. (I haven’t seen it for a while, though. I think I’ve earned hoping Something Happened, frankly.)
On the other hand, apparently a fair number of other people here were also sick of its shit, which is a genuine revelation because most of them
JUST FUCKING WATCHED
while it was stalking and triggering me. (Oh, wait, some of them occasionally belittled me for being triggered by what it was doing.)
Which is actually kind of worse, come to think of it.
So, yeah, maybe shouldn’t have made that comparison.
Dehumanizing someone, no matter WHAT the reason, is never cool. I get it that you don’t like SGBM, Azkyroth, but the fact that you call him an IT several times, *and* you italicize it, to enhance it, is not cool at all. Whether you like him or hate him, he’s still a human being.
I will note that expressing contempt through the use of the 3rd person singular “it” would be impossible – the contempt would be unrecognizable – if society did not view being gendered as either a man/boy or woman/girl a necessary requirement for humanity.
This is an insult which relies upon, and keeps alive, the most vicious kind of trans* hatred.
It would be easier to understand that if the links went to the actual threads and not to TVTropes.
That’s all?
Really?
Azkyroth:
I’m extremely sympathetic to what you’ve said. I wasn’t around to see the stuff SG said to you, but I take you at your word that it was horrible and triggering. I accept that you immensely dislike him and it sounds like your feelings are justified.
But I don’t support referring to any human being as “IT”.
Fair comment, Azky.
FTR, that shit is horrible. I don’t remember it – there was a long time when I was reading without paying attention to ‘nyms or stable personalities, just content only – but I believe it. And it’s not tolerable and you deserve and have my sympathy. Also, there was a long time when I wasn’t reading TET even though I was reading & commenting elsewhere. Even after I started, I was pretty inconsistent about it for a while. Maybe I saw something and did nothing. If I did, that’s on me. I don’t think I would read something that I legitimately *thought* was stalking/harassing behavior and then say nothing. But I could have. Or I could have failed to recognize it. Either way, I’m sorry you didn’t have more support at the time. I’m also glad that you’re here participating on Pharyngula. I very often appreciate your comments.
I could have said so above, but I really don’t remember any of that, so I didn’t think it was directed at me. But I think calling out such inaction is perfectly fair, which is why I didn’t criticize it when I criticized your reliance on the notion that to be human one must be correctly gendered.
What…
What.
I…
I don’t…
……..the threads were A) legion, B) mostly years ago (before I developed an adequate avoidance strategy and the Lounge rules, when they weren’t being selectively read to use against me, provided some respite), and C) in part on ScienceBlogs and hence not retrievable.
WHY IN ANY CONCEIVABLE GOD’S NAME WOULD I HAVE THE LINKS TO HAND WHAT ARE YOU IMPLYING
Now then:
The bit about “Dehumanizing” seems to fit into the “turn the other cheek” bullshit that’s always left me worse off if I tried to be a Good Boy and follow it. Treating someone as though their emotional wellbeing is of no value and only their instrumental effects on others matters seems worse. Even if there is a point in there somewhere.
However, it does grade into…
That was not, in fact, part of my thought processes or feelings but I acknowledge this and will make changes in the future.
Do you two acknowledge anything else?
(Or would you respond to literally anyone else sharing a deep psychological wound in an obviously shaken state with nothing but a demand to take care of others’ feelings?)
Okay. :/
(…and, granted, I’m sure my 11-odd year posting-and-thread-participation history could be hyper-selectively quote-mined to “refute” everything I’ve just said. That’s always been one of SGBM’s favorite dirty tricks.)
I’m interpreting #622 as being written while I was writing #621 and posted without seeing Tony!’s #620 or my #621.
I’m interpreting the #623 as acknowledging #620 & #621 and expressing something (frustration?) at not having been able to read them before posting your #622.
Thus I’m taking #623 as implying that our responses were adequate to your concerns?
If not, please let me know.
As for #624, by the time I started really paying attention to personalities, SGBM was rarely posting. Back in the SciBlogs days I spent a year or more before reading any comments at all. I don’t know how often (if ever) I’d ever read comments on the SciBlogs TET. I was here for PZ’s voice at first. I didn’t really start to see that commenting was a vital part of Pharyngula until 3d4k. Until then, I saw it as something for which I didn’t have time. At that point, I realized that some tremendously important things happen in the comments, and I wanted to read and contribute.
All to say, I don’t really know SGBM’s comment history. I only started paying attention to nyms in 2011…but even then, I’ve noticed that SGBM can do some horrible things, and I’ve never noticed you doing anything I would consider horrible, Azkyroth. So people can quote you as much as they like. I’ve noticed someone who (among many other things) makes mistakes and actually learns from them. I haven’t noticed you to be one of those that frequently doubles down.
So I’m much happier to have your contributions than SGBM’s, even if someone could find an entire calendar month from whenever-the-hell-ago where I consistently agreed with SGBM and disagreed with you. It’s what happens during the disagreements that matters, and even if I missed the worst of SGBM’s behaviors, I saw enough to know I prefer having you here.
Crip Dyke:
This applies to me as well.
Incidentally, I think this:
is in reference to the incident in the Lounge between SGBM and Improbable Joe…last year, was it?
@Tony! #628:
Really? Ugh.
Missed that completely. But then I was moving into a new house and doing god knows what other things last summer. It was a busy time – had partner’s parents staying with us for 3 weeks as well. Might have been during that time.
Azkyroth – I’m sorry for all the times I didn’t step in. I hope I stepped in when I saw it, but I honestly don’t remember, and my reading is spotty enough that I know I would have missed some, and probably didn’t realize the severity of others. I never realized he was targeting you specifically for so long; I’m bad at paying attention to names all the time, and crap at remembering events transpiring between specific people (every time one of those “and this is what you did to this person before” arguments come up, I’m amazed at how people can recall that well).
Janine needed in the Lounge!
So, I put on the sour-dough.
(metric measures follow)
1 litre water
1 litre flour
1/2 litre sour-dough
in a 5 litre bowl
.
and went away for about 2 hours
.
it filled the bowl
filled the plate under the bowl
and was crawling along the counter
.
I fixed it.
I have four lovely loaves.
.
and disciplined sour-dough for next time
Tony / Crip Dyke,
On the other hand, some trans people apparently prefer ‘it’ as their personal pronoun of choice (apparently, this applies to the kid who gave Dan Savage crap for using a particular slur in a discussion of why he didn’t use that particular slur any more). Really interesting point that using ‘it’ to dehumanize is essentially a result of the lack of a nongendered personal pronoun, though.
Chigau,
Drool. I wish I could persuade my wife that sourdough / desem bread is a really good thing…enjoy! Now if I could only figure out if the caustic soda they sell here is the right kind of alkaline to make pretzels…
This doesn’t bode well. The UK’s new education secretary, who, when she was equalities minister, for Pete’s sake, voted against same sex marriage “partly because she could not reconcile it with her faith.”
Hi Daz!
‘Ello Chigau. How’s you?
(I have internet wot works properly Yay!)
Daz
Mostly good.
Too busy, too hot.
Well, the too busy part I’m with you on. Thankfully not that hot here, though apparently we may reach the giddy height of 27° on Thursday.
Welcome back Daz
Tony!
Thank you.
You’re still telling yourself this same story? I suppose as long as no one assumes PZ actually knew what was happening before he gave his “orders,” then this statement is accurate, except for the part about “hounding,” since as you yourself note, it was a single, very minor point. Completely forgettable, in fact, and not worth dredging up and linking — although it would at least be relevant and objective unlike fucking TVtropes links. Also, there’s the part about nobody (including SGBM) having any idea that he was feeling suicidal, until after the fact (when there was, again, no hounding). But other than that, the story you tell is just so evocative of somebody doing something wrong (exactly what you think that is, I don’t think anyone here can tell). It’s a good story.
Fuck you, for calling him an “it.” No really: fuck you.
Yet by using “it,” you treat him like an instrument, not as a person whose emotions and wellbeing matter. He’s a person, so you’re just flat-out fucking wrong empirically, if somehow you just can’t handle thinking of this in ethical terms. But you will not in any way be “worse off” by facing and accepting reality, so your bullshit is just bullshit.
[rant]Why do the idjits who run the apparel markets, think some thinks shouldn’t be available until the end of the season. Tried to buy the Redhead some velcro sandals. Two were already out for the season in any possible size/width, and the third was severely curtailed, so that according the supplier, I got the last available one in a wide width.[/rant]
Ikan Bakar
.5/10
Not very original.
And a bit whiny.
Ikan Bakar:
Yawn. Boring Pitter is boring.
Well, that was quick.
Dare I ask?
Yeah, I thought about asking, but given chigau’s “not very original” comment, I’m afraid it wouldn’t be worth the bother.
It was some gleeful tittering about Og and HS.
Plus some digs at Tony, CD and Inaji.
And a BikeShorts reference.
And some pokes at PZ as a scientist and conference participant.
Really an all-inclusive turd but still an old turd.
Someone who spends alot of time here taking notes.
Ah, charming.
delurk: I don’t remember the incident to which Azkyroth refers, but it seems that trashing SGBM in a thread in which he is unavailable to defend himself is low, at best, and the kind of thing that I think none of us would be happy about were we targeted. And for what its worth, every time some shit like this happens, pitters be getting mad gleeful. This is one of the several reasons that I have laid off commenting here.
Wow.
***
It’s extremely unwise to take the word of anyone here about sg without evidence. Extremely unwise.
SC:
Perhaps I worded that poorly. My point was that I accept that to Azkyroth, the interaction with SGBM was horrible and triggering.
Here is the thread
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/lounge-373/comment-page-1/#comments
658 comments
A sample (n≥5) would do.
So? Google remembers all.
Here, this link may help.
Yes, I know there are 1900+ hits. No-one said that research was easy. Try finding something in the first 10 or 20 pages of hits, at least. If you can’t find anything, maybe what you think happened is not as obvious as you remember.
web.archive.org may be your friend, here.
Because you care about truth, and are willing to do the research to back up your claims? Because you know that human memory is fallible, and subject to bias? Because bluster is cheap, and anyone with a long-festering grudge can whip up a hate-filled rant?
I’m just spitballing, here.
How on Earth does calling any human being “it” leave you better off? Really, I’m curious. It’s not “turn the other cheek”; it’s “don’t do unto others what you would not have them do unto you”.
Feel free to elaborate on this, please.
Oh, no. Is this the same fool we had for a while that would post something every fucking night only for PZ to delete it?
@ Ikan Bakardua
Oooh, classy hoggling there, boet.
#624 / Nerd: Apparently, most people in the real world buy their clothes long before they actually need them. I’ve never understood it, either. Why would I buy sandals in March?
Derek:
Financial reasons. Some people buy items off seasons thinking (justifiably at times) that the price of these items is cheaper in the off season. I’ve bought coats or jackets in the summer (before I lived in Florida) because they’ve been cheaper than if I bought them in the winter.
ugh, so I was finally able to post at Jerry Coyne’s blog…but then about 4 posts of mine later, I criticized his criticism of one of the other commenters, and now my criticism is vanished and I can’t seem to post there anymore.
@ brianpansky
If your same browser is still open, you could try using the little “back” arrow on the top left (FF) of your browser window (“go back one page”). I have often found comments I thought had disappeared for good. It appears that the comment window is its own page.
If that doesn’t work, then I shall wave a claw at you and say: ” Download the program “clipit” and always do a “copy” command before posting, Grasshopper.”
You can always cross-post here, if you think Jerry is being snotty.
Tony,
Yeah, I’m just grumpy because by the time I get around to looking for clothes I need (like that nice sweater in the window) they’re always sold out….
Derek:
Any reason you couldn’t start shopping now?
Amusing {short} video poking fun at the opposition to Marriage Equality.
As always, don’t read the comments.
666
NEW THREAD.