Nate Silver’s new tech journalism startup is catching some flak lately for promoting a sexist attitude that excludes women — which he denies. They’re nerds, he says, they can’t possibly be anything like the piggish jocks who picked on them in high school. Not so, says Zeynep Tufekci. That logic doesn’t follow.
How does that relate to the Silver’s charged defense that his team could not be “bro-y” people? Simple: among the mostly male, smart, geeky groups that most programmers and technical people come from, there is a way of existing that is, yes, often fairly exclusionary to women but not in ways that Silver and his friends recognize as male privilege. When they think of male privilege, they are thinking of “macho” jocks and have come to believe their own habitus as completely natural, all about merit, and also in opposition to macho culture. But if brogrammer culture opposes macho culture, it does not follow that brogrammer culture is automatically welcoming to other excluded groups, such as women.
Oh, man, so familiar. If atheist culture opposes religious culture, or skeptic culture opposes woo-ey culture, it does not follow that they’re automatically inclusive. If anything, atheists and skeptics have tended to be more male-focused (admittedly, that is changing fast now) than the religious or New Age culture they opposed.
It takes effort by the oblivious majority to include an excluded minority. Doesn’t matter who the majority are. It’s a rule.
Man, is he in for a rude awakening. If he chooses to listen.
Boy howdy, what planet has he been living on? I’ve been involved with various flavors of nerd culture most all of my life, and nerddom has historically been if anything more guy dominated and guy focused than the general culture. This has started to change (a little, and with much kicking and screaming on the part of a large chunk of male nerddom) in the last decade or so, but there’s still a long, loooooonnnnnnng way to go.
My favorite take on the subject:
SMBC Theater
I agree completely with the smackdown of his “but we’re nerds!” argument.
In the bigger picture though, his staff is 6 women and 11 men, and he pointed out that that ratio is more even than the ratio of his applicants, so presumably he did exert effort to push for diversity. What’s the ratio on The Guardian’s editorial board? When will a woman be chief editor there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian#Editors
I don’t mean at all to dismiss the importance of diversity, but I also don’t want to impugn people who are making strides because their strides aren’t long enough.
I fell for that “only jocks are sexist, nerds are gentle downtrodden geniuses!” bullshit when I was in high school. Glad I at least got the therapy I needed for the nasty surprises that resulted through the province instead of having to pay myself.
Basically what Dalillama, Schmott Guy said @ #2, but with added bitterness.
Yeah, give them any little measure of power and watch the id come out.
Oh yeah. Been there, done that, got the recurring nightmares.
timothycourtney brings up an interesting point, are creative endeavors lead by people who aren’t straight white males subject to a higher standard of diversity? In addition to Silver’s site, I’m thinking the criticism Mindy Kaling and Lena Dunham have received for the lack of diversity on their shows.
hahaha yeah sure when I think of online video gameres–and the deluge of horrible misogynistic filth they swim in and excrete–I think of well-muscled meathead jocks that are not nerdy at all. that sure sounds exactly right
:|
Is this in relation to FiveThirtyEight over at ESPN? I think it has some sort of relationship with Grantland of Dr. V’s Magic Putter infamy, but I might be wrong.
It’s the same logic of the Nice Guy myth.
Yeah, because no nerd was ever tempted to abuse his newfound power when he reached adulthood, upper-class status and realized that in grownupia, wealth trumps upper body strength every fucking time.
/sarcasm
Some of the most memorable sexism I remember came from my Academic Decathlon teammates back in high school. I was very fond of them, still am, but they typified that trickle-down sexism to a T. I was the only girl on the team, and I was repeatedly told that I was Not Really A Girl, a Statistical Anomaly, that I had somehow escaped the fate of Being a Girl and Liking Girly Things. These were all guys who were generally sweet, friendly (if wary of jock types), incredibly intelligent, and undoubtedly nerds. They probably never saw themselves as promoting a bro-type culture…and yet because of their behaviour, I was trained to internalise the sexist messages of the Exceptional Woman, that maths and sciences and anything they saw as Worthy were inherently male pursuits, and that feminine coded pursuits and interests were to be eschewed or hidden should I desire to remain the Exceptional Girl in the Boys Club.
You’ll notice that Nate Silver’s answer is not data driven, despite that being his claim to fame.
pixelfish – Sometimes I think “you’re special, not like the other girls” was invented by nerd culture, it’s so prevalent there.
Carlie, I think you’re very right. I heard it a lot, and at one point even took it as a compliment. *makes disgusted face at past self*
HappiestSadist, 16:
I doubt nerd culture invented it, but rather it’s just an extension of ” people are all . Oh, but not you, you’re different from the rest of your kind!” combined with the general sexism in our culture, and that self-same culture doing its best to teach geeks and nerds that they are expected to be afraid of and unable to relate to women (Well, any other “normal” human, but women in particular).
Couple that with geeks being some of the most stubborn, recalcitrant, and change-fearing people I know (And isn’t that ironic, for a culture that exists on the cutting edge of change?), and its clear that fixing nerd culture is going to be one hellishly painful process
Dammit. The site ate my punctuation. That was meant to be “<X> people are all <Y>. Oh, but not you, you’re different from the rest of your kind!”
I recommend people read through all the linked articles – as well as the Joy’s law piece and the Dr.V Grantland apology piece. Well worth it.
On the bro-grammer thing, I guess I didn’t have any of that at school, because I was pretty much the only person interested in programming (everyone else went mainly for the internet) as well as my own other particular interests. I tended to be in a nerd-group-of-one.
I’m currently of the opinion that *whatever* group one is in will be full of stereotypes and privilege-blindness. I always bring some of my own at any rate.
@jste #18
I think insularity is the worst. Why should there even *be* gender segregated interest groups? At 16-17 I was unable to mumble more than a sentence to a woman or girl my age-group because I’d spent my entire childhood with 3 brothers and all-male friends.
A female-majority environment at uni, marriage, divorce, a daughter and .. um *listening* all helped for me.
=8)-DX, 20:
I don’t disagree with you. Listening is vastly under-rated. I was not oblivious to the message behind “shut up and listen”. But tell me, how do you convince the wider tech communities, nerd and geek cultures, and brogrammer cults that they should try doing that? I interact with these communities daily. It’s not for nothing I say these are stubborn, change-averse people.
No, but see, male privilege is really “privilege of jocks over poor nerdy guys”. Totes true. Nothing to do with women at all!
::rolls eyes::
@jste #21
I guess there needs to be lots more shouting and feminist activism from the women, but as a guy inside I guess I try to:
• Remark when things people say are sexist.
• Point out harassing or uncomfortable behaviours.
• State that a particular stereotype is invalid whenever one comes up.
• Try to treat all colleagues equally whatever gender/position.
Online or IRL, what’s important is that people in these communities who say they reject sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. need to say so, out loud, every time. But then I’m not in a decision-making position, I can’t hire people, make agendas, I don’t lead any nerdy groups. I think I’ll go back to listening though now.
It was more of a rhetorical question, because your strategy seems to be the only one that has shown any success, that I’m aware of. My colleagues are frustrating people quite intent on not listening, unfortunately.
Maybe you should speak up more in the groups you are a member of. You have a better way with words than I do, and are miles ahead of a few billion people on the “listening” thing!
Oops. My #27 was to =8)-DX #23.
Shitboy, you have no idea what you’re babbling about, do you? Read for instance, the story about github a few days ago, or the story about the woman fired for pointing out sexism at a convention last year. Sexism in IT is actually a thing, not something we made up.
Ah thank goodness the articulate “shitboy” is here to set us straight
@Shitboy
There were none. That makes them easy to avoid. Not avoiding them is the hard part and requires some philosophical and metaphysical gymnastics, and probably an improbability drive
Please find something to do with your life
@shitboy #24:
<blockquote< There’s no conspiracy to keep women out of IT, there just aren’t as many qualified women for IT employers to choose from.
Is that so? And if it is, why do you reckon?
Aww, does shitboy think they are the first person to do this? So cute. I really don’t think PZ cares all that much about your silly little comments.
@Ishikiri
Don’t humor the person who is literally declaring their love of shit
Don’t you just love it when someone drops by to call you a serial rapist, and their name is “shitboy” and the scribble ascii penises in their comments and call women insulting names?
I am blessed with idiots for enemies.
@Ingdigo Jump:
I’m just trying to shine a little light on his reasoning. It seems like he’s concluded that men and women are totally innately different, and completely discounting how people are socialized and that there is indeed sexism in the world. I bet he’s also a race-realist.
But I’m sorry if you guys are tired of going over and over that.
Is it possible? Has the renowned 4.252.99.182 paid us a visit?
*swoon*
You claim prayer doesn’t work, but just look at all it’s done for you and Voltaire!
On a serious note I have to wonder how anybody could spend a significant amount of time on the internet and still believe ‘nerds’ are any less sexist than the general population.
@ =8)-DX, 20
Liz Tenning? No, never heard of her… how did she help?
I honestly don’t understand why nerds are so often as sexist as they so often are… mind you, looking back, I know I was exactly the same at the time (but I had girls for friends (I absolutely fail to understand how… infinite patience on their part, I guess) so how could I be sexist?!). Maybe it comes from a failure to understand that there can be more than one kind of oppression at a time? It might explain why MRAs think the oppression of working class people in exclusionary “men only” jobs counts as evidence that women are in power and men are the truly oppressed ones… though I think the main explanation for that is just being full of shit.
…Speaking of shitboy, does anyone else find it immensely reassuring when those guys come around and spew utter nonsense? Like the idea that it’s an active conspiracy, because that’s the only way that oppression can happen! Social norms don’t even exist! I don’t know about you, but I constantly worry that I’m wrong about practically everything I have an opinion about, so it’s always reassuring to see someone disagreeing with me so irrationally. I’m sure that’s a fallacy – their irrationality is not my rationality – but it’s definitely reassuring.
@jste #17
I suspect that nerd culture having internalised this message has an awful lot to do with the misogyny rampant within that particular culture. Without meaning to delve into StarWars cliches, people tend to hate things they fear and/or don’t understand.
“Nerds don’t do that” is a love-of-the-underdog thing, which comes from a sense of superficial justice and from confusing the inability to oppress with the disinclination to (see also Tibet).