The Digital Cuttlefish read the federal ruling striking down Utah’s gay discrimination laws, and makes an interesting point: Utah’s arguments were stupid. Not just poorly reasoned, but youtube-comment-grade stupid.
You’d think after all these years of clever people trying to rationalize their religious beliefs into law, you’d think someone would have said something that would make you stop and think, “Hmm, that’s a tough one…I’m going to have to think for a few minutes to counter that.” But no, they haven’t. And the court ruling goes through them all and points out how superficial and foolish Utah’s lawyers were.
By the way, if you want to get married in Utah today, Equality Utah has recommendations. Work fast — there are forces in Utah working to block this decision.
Also, “work fast” is bad advice about something as serious as getting married. Only move quickly if you’re already in a committed relationship and have wanted this for some time.
David Wilford says
After almost twenty years of listening to arguments against same-sex civil marriage, the fact is that every one of them is stupid, no matter how smart-sounding someone tries to make them.
Childermass says
First comment: “After almost twenty years of listening to arguments against same-sex civil marriage, the fact is that every one of them is stupid, no matter how smart-sounding someone tries to make them.”
And deep down Utah seems to realize just how bad its case really is.
The stay of the decision pending its appeal has the following:
The rule in question reads:
richardelguru says
“So simple, even an invertebrate can understand it”
And do it while writing verse!
Lynna, OM says
PZ is correct about Utah state and local officials looking for ways to shut down or to slow down gay marriages.
Here are some tips from an ex-mormon:
1) People [camped] outside the SLC building (address and directions are on the [Equality Utah] page) for Monday morning (12/23).
2) Although there is usually a 30-day period after the issuance of a marriage license before the license expires, the state is going to be specifically asking that SSM licenses be put on hold, so it is important to get married IMMEDIATELY, or else it is at least possible that even a validly-issued marriage license may become (until the hold is lifted) useless.
3) As of this writing (10:55 PM MST [last night]), there are four counties which are known to be prepared to issue SSM licenses: Salt Lake, Weber, Cache, and Washington counties.
4) Take CASH to pay the $30 fee (someone said that SL is charging $40), because you need to get the license in the shortest time possible. (You should have your applications downloaded and completely filled out tonight, before you go in.) Speed is of the essence, because there is at least a possibility that a stay could be issued after only one hour of the licenses becoming available.
5) When you are printing off your application forms, print off a few extra and take them with you to give to people in line who do not have printers at home.
Information is being updated constantly, and will be updated throughout the night. This is a public Facebook page so anyone can access it:
https://www.facebook.com/EqualityUtah/posts/10151826972051921
And here’s what Utah County, the most mormon county in all of the morridor, is doing — or rather, not doing:
Herald Extra link.
Lynna, OM says
Inadequately veiled instructions to mormons from mormon-controlled media:
Lynna, OM says
From today’s [Monday, December 23] coverage in the Salt Lake Tribune:
Emergency! EMERGENCY! Gay Utahans are getting married! Sheesh.
There’s a gallery of 24 photos attached to the Salt Lake Tribune story. Great photos.
Lynna, OM says
Excerpt from the Salt Lake Tribune article (see link in comment #6):
Somebody needs to take photos of the assholes refusing to issue marriage license’s, and photos of the law enforcement personnel they dragged along.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says
For the last couple of years I have been asking anti-gay marriage folks posting here how the Redhead’s gay cousin marrying his long-time partner hurts the (now) 40 year marriage of the Redhead and myself. The silence has been deafening. That silence says everything about their lack of cogent arguments.
I’m still amazed how many people, usually rightwing or religious idjits, who think that just because they vote on an issue involving human rights, that they can supersede those rights with a bigoted law. That is exactly why the courts keep saying “you can’t do that”.
Lynna, OM says
http://fox13now.com/2013/12/22/10th-circuit-court-denies-utahs-emergency-motion-for-temporary-stay/
The appeal to stay Judge Shelby’s ruling has been denied. Mormon lawyers and lawmakers are not done yet, but this setback for their plans is good news.
Lynna, OM says
The Utah Attorney General’s office has sent state lawyers to the 10th Circuit in Denver in order to file yet another appeal to stay Judge Shelby’s ruling.
Let us hope that the Utah AG does not get what he wants for Christmas.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says
I find it ironic that gay couples are getting married in Utah before they are here in Illinois. Illinois recently passed a gay marriage law, but it won’t take effect until next June.
David Wilford says
It’s hilarious in a way (if it wasn’t so frightening for those same-sex couples affected) to see the Utah AG trying to claim that a stay is needed because, well, because… Because! Hint: if you can’t prove harm to being with, then what’s the reason for a stay? Go tell it to the judge, but I’m betting it’s all been heard already and found wanting.
Lynna, OM says
Dose of delicious irony for today: December 23rd is Joseph Smith’s birthday. Smithmas for mormons.
Lynna, OM says
From the comments below the Salt Lake Tribune article:
Lynna, OM says
Nice, mormon-flavored cartoon by Bagley:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57296456-82/bagley-cartoon-facebook-lake.html.csp
The ghost of non-traditional marriages past is pretty scary for mormons.
Rey Fox says
It’s so bizarre to see forces frantically scrambling to prevent people in love from sealing their bond. If this were a movie, it would be so damn obvious who the bad guys are. That they have no awareness of this is just stunning.
And yet they continue to insist that “both sides” be heard, that “the debate” be allowed to continue. I don’t even bother anymore. I just drink up their tears.
Lynna, OM says
Those of you not too far from Salt Lake City may want to join in a mass celebration of marriage equality in Utah.
https://www.facebook.com/events/976226845804816/
The celebration is scheduled for 6:00 PM tonight. If you need a ride, you can probably find one by posting a request on the Facebook page.
Tony! The Queer Shoop! says
Rey Fox:
I really hope you have a chaser of something good.
God soaked theist tears doesn’t sound particularly tasty.
Erp says
In fairness sake there are some Mormons who are supporting the ruling. See the Feminist Mormon Housewives blog which has posted severals supportive posts.
Lynna, OM says
Erp @19, I saw that Steve Young and his wife had also come out in favor of Judge Shelby’s ruling.
Meanwhile, both sides of the gay marriage debate are fielding petitions drives, as ABC News has noted.
Lynna, OM says
Meet the first same-sex couple to get a marriage license in Utah:
http://www.msnbc.com/melissa-harris-perry/man-live-tweets-gay-marriage-milestone
Lynna, OM says
From ex-mormon “bezoar”:
David Wilford says
Request for a stay, denied:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/judge-allows-same-sex-marriage-licenses-utah
w00t!
Lynna, OM says
From the Melissa Harris Perry link:
Lynna, OM says
Rachel Maddow blog coverage (can’t wait to see her show on MSNBC tonight):
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/court-allows-utah-marriages-continue
So, where are we now? Judge Shelby did not issue a stay on Friday. The 10th circuit did not issue an emergency stay over the weekend. Judge Shelby did not issue a stay this morning. Lawyers from the Utah Attorney General’s office will go back to the 10th Circuit, and will probably continue to go back over and over. We wish them many more failures than they have already racked up.
From NBC News:
Lynna, OM says
Intolerant crap from the Sutherland Institute, a mormon-controlled “think tank” that knows how to scare fellow mormons with the polygamy monster:
http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2013/02/28/trib-columnist-shows-honesty-about-the-logic-of-gay-marriage/
Lynna, OM says
“Utah County Adopts Jim Crow Tactic, Preventing Same-Sex Couples From Marrying”
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/12/23/3100801/utah-county-adopts-jim-crow-tactic-preventing-sex-couples-marrying/
Lynna, OM says
NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/24/us/judge-allows-same-sex-weddings-to-continue-in-utah.html
RickR says
Au contraire. They are sweet like nectar. Especially mormon tears.
Lynna, OM says
Ah, yes, mormon tears. An abundance, a tidal wave, of schadenfreude today for those of us who live in the morridor. How sweet it is.
Meanwhile, mormon lawyers and lawmakers are still running around like someone disturbed their anthill. To state court. To the 10th Circuit Court in Denver. Back to state court. To county clerks with close-up suggestions. Back to court. To county clerks with reluctant, open-up orders. To organizers of petitions to protect the mormon God’s idiotic ways. To Twitter and Facebook and Deseret News. Lots of hand-waving and flailing and wailing. Delightful.
Tony! The Queer Shoop! says
All this effort on their parts to deny others the right to be happy.
During the Holiday season.
Lynna, OM says
From the Washington Post.
Lynna, OM says
From the readers comments section on the Salt Lake Tribune site:
–
http://www.sltrib.com/pages/comments?cid=57299146
Ingdigo Jump says
Don’t you mean “beehive?”
David Wilford says
I always love the “real marriage” line of baloney. I’m divorced and since remarried and while the Catholic church might not think my wife and I have a “real marriage” it’s all perfectly legal and legitimate. Which is how it should be. Mormons aren’t entitled to a theocracy and will have to recognize the basic right of same-sex couples to marry because there is no valid reason whatsoever to continue discriminating against them.
Oh, and the the assertion that a “union” is satisfactory? The concept of “separate but equal” was found wanting back in the 1960s and it’s wrong to think it would be fair to apply to same-sex couples.
zenlike says
I prefer ‘dungheap’.
RickR says
This. This right here.
You know what this means? It means they know they’ve lost.
You see it over and over again- it’s the last stance of the bested bigot: “Well…..well…….you may have a civil marriage, but it’s not a REAL marriage!! NYAH!!”
That’s what victory against these asshats looks like.
Lynna, OM says
More from the Maddow Blog:
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/marriage-equality-continues-utah
Lynna, OM says
http://www.towleroad.com/2013/12/federal-judge-strikes-downs-utahs-gay-marriage-ban-effectively-legalizes-gay-marriage.html
You can scroll down on this page to read the actual decision. It’s about 50 pages long, very thorough.
Lynna, OM says
http://www.towleroad.com/2013/12/same-sex-couples-wait-in-long-lines-to-wed-in-salt-lake-city.html
Some nice photos here, including photos of supportive family members.
Al Dente says
Lynna, OM @15
The LDS church are not the people to be talking about traditional marriage.
Lynna, OM says
Update from a gay ex-mormon who got married today:
Many gay couples who got married today were sorry not to have had time to invite relatives and friends from out of state. With hindsight, it looks like they could have slowed down a little, but there were no guarantees that Utah lawyers would not succeed in their appeal for a stay this morning. Better to marry quickly than not at all.
jnorris says
I was very disappointed by the lack of good arguments during Prop 8 challenge. Perhaps Utah will the end of states defending their anti same-gender marriage laws.
stillacrazycanuck says
Was it just me, or is it fair to read the decision as showing the Judge’s disdain for Scalia? He repeatedly quotes Scalia’s dissent on the DOMA case as justifying his decision. I suspect he could have found supporting passages from the majority in DOMA to support his reasoning and it seemed to me, on reading how he uses the Scalia passages, as if he was having a little bit of judicial fun at Scalia’s expense.
At least in theory this case could end up before the Supreme Court, with Scalia still sitting. I can’t help but imagine the Judge having that in mind, and having in mind an image of Scalia seething over his words being used to justify striking down homophobic legislation, and smiling to himself at the delicious irony.
Even if I’m wrong in this, it was still nice to have the thought myself. We’ve had same-sex marriage in Canada for many years, and I don’t know any opposite-sex spouses who feel that their own relationships have been affected:)
miserlyoldman says
@Lynna, OM #39 and @stillacrazycanuck #44
I raptly read every page and enjoyed the overwhelming tide of reasons it was struck down. I was actually laughing out loud by the third Scalia dissent that was cited. I was and am on the same page: I think it was some judicial trolling coupled with a hedge against any potential bigoted Scalia review if it gets to the Supreme Court.
whheydt says
Notice that, once again–and this time without the standing issue–we have the ant-SSM folks playing with fire. IF they appeal and *lose*, this decision would apply to all of the states covered by the 10th Circuit (Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah and Wyoming) *and* it would be a precedent. Without an appeal, the trial court decision would only apply to Utah and could not be cited as an actual precedent anywhere else.
One can only imagine the reaction in Oklahoma and Wyoming, particularly, if this gets applied to those states…
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says
*snicker* *tee-hee* *bwahahahahahaha*
joe99b says
My favorite sentence in the judge’s decision: “The State’s prohibition of the Plaintiffs’right to choose a same-sex marriage partner renders their fundamental right to marry as meaningless as if the State recognized the Plaintiffs’ right to bear arms but not their right to buy bullets.”
A 2nd amendment argument! Well…, a 2nd amendment analogy. Might be persuasive in them there parts.
FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says
Best. Christmas. Gift. EVAH!
Such a delicious melange of second hand joy and schadenfreude.
Holms says
Even if we set aside the fact that that claim of harm is likely just trumped up bullshit with no corroborating documentation, it strikes my non-legal eyes to be an excellent argument against invalidating their marriages in the first place.
whheydt says
Re: Holms @ #50…
In the Prop. 8 cases, the backers of Prop. 8 did NOT attempt to have SSM marriages done between the State Supreme Court making them legal and the passage of Prop. 8 about 5 months later.
So…if Utah follows the same pattern…there will be no harm, so no stay needed.
Holms says
Oh, so it is even more trumped up than I thought? Way to go, Utah! Fuckwits.
Tapetum, Raddled Harridan says
Schadenfreude pie makes such a nice pairing with wedding cake!
Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk- says
I don’t know how anybody can look at those pictures and not see anything but love.
casus fortuitus says
@stillacrazycanuck, #44:
It’s not just you. My favourite part of the judgment:
Delicious irony, indeed.
Lynna, OM says
Crowds showed up to celebrate in Salt Lake City last night:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57303881-78/gay-love-utah-crowd.html.csp
Lynna, OM says
This article was updated last night at 9:15 PM:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57299146-78/state-stay-marriage-sex.html.csp
Rey Fox says
What’s crazy to me is that the mayors of SLC and Ogden are officiating at these ceremonies. I can’t think of a single municipality in Idaho whose mayor would have the spine for that.
Lynna, OM says
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57301923-78/state-marriage-utah-sex.html.csp
More sound and fury signifying nothing from the Powers That Be in Utah.
Lynna, OM says
The 10th Circuit Court in Denver has denied two requests for emergency stays of Judge Shelby’s ruling. Now, a third request for a stay is pending, and this request will probably take several months to process.
Lynna, OM says
Well, at least one of the Utah counties that had refused to issue gay marriage licenses yesterday is now on board. Cache County is only on board after being forced to do the right thing, the lawful thing.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57306295-78/county-clerk-couples-utah.html.csp
Lynna, OM says
Some religious organizations in Utah are supporting gay marriage (not the LDS Church). Pastors are showing up and performing marriage ceremonies for free, and without regard to the couple’s religious or non-religious affiliation. This helps a lot because it assures that more gay marriages are completed before lawyers from the anti-gay side can pressure the courts some more for a stay.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1117438
This post lists most of the organizations backing gay marriage, and helping with ceremonies. (Too many links to include all the text here.)
Rey Fox says
For a whopping 117 years, in fact.
Rey Fox says
Anybody know if folks are coming over from Wyoming, Idaho, and Colorado to get married?
whheydt says
The County Clerk of Utah County has been notified of a pending suit for failure to issue a marraige license to a same-sex couple, per http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57305381-78/eyre-county-haws-utah.html.csp
Should be pretty easy call… Is he obeying a Federal Court Order? No. Contempt of court.
dobby says
The 10th Circuit has denied a stay:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57306142-78/state-sex-marriages-utah.html.csp
The next step is the Supreme Court, Sonya Sotomayor is assigned to that district.
Marriage equality for the win!
Lynna, OM says
The full story of the various appeals and denials:
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/10th-circuit-wont-block-utah-marriages
Lynna, OM says
Cross-posted from the Lounge:
Pasted in below is the official LDS church response to the gay marriage ruling in Utah. It contains three lies:
1. That the Church treats all people with respect
2. It implies that the Church has always supported marriage between one man and one woman “a woman”
3. That the Church is “consistent”
“The Church has been consistent in its support of traditional marriage while teaching that all people should be treated with respect. This ruling by a district court will work its way through the judicial process. We continue to believe that voters in Utah did the right thing by providing clear direction in the state constitution that marriage should be between a man and a woman and we are hopeful that this view will be validated by a higher court.”
Lynna, OM says
Also cross-posted from the Lounge:
Mormons and conservative non-mormons continue to comment on JudgeShelby’s same-sex marriage ruling in Utah:
There’s more, but the above quotes are more than enough. In good news, the yucky stuff quoted above is countered by lots of rational (and more tolerant) comments on the Salt Lake Tribune site.