# More formulaic bullshit from Thunderf00t

Thunderf00t has a new video, and it’s the usual nonsense of bad metaphors and vague recommendations and a complete lack of empathy and reason — more mountain lions and wasps, and new comparisons that don’t work.

Here’s the problem I have: he keeps saying that women can do things to reduce their chances of getting raped…and then he trots out a fake equation, like this:

Probability of rape = AxBxCxDxExFxGxH

Where cyan are the factors women control, and red are the factors the rapists control. And therefore he’s only advocating that there are steps you can take to acceptably reduce your risk of rape, not that the rapist is excused.

Can I just say that I really, really despise fake equations? It’s a way to put up a pretense of scientific objectivity, without having to do any actual work in trying to understand the relationship of the variables. Why would you give all of these variables equal weight? Why would you think these are probabilities that are appropriately multiplied together? And most importantly, what the hell are the variables? I would think that one of the major objections here is that he leaves his variables unspecified, and if we think it through, it turns out that those parameters are what many of us are objecting to.

Later in his video, he mentions “body language” as a factor in rape (let’s call that his factor A) — apparently, women just have to learn the right body language to discourage rapists…like being waspish or lionish. I think. Looking fearful is apparently a bad thing — so ladies, if you get raped, perhaps it’s because you weren’t presenting yourself forcefully enough. But on the other hand, what I’ve seen is that if women are aggressively outgoing and bold, they get more hatred and accusations of being unladylike and death and rape threats. How’s that working out for Rebecca Watson?

So apparently A doesn’t scale in a simple linear way, and it isn’t even interpretable as a numeric value…and it’s going to have different context-dependent values, depending on the personality of your wanna-be rapist. So what exactly are women supposed to do?

I asked this question on the chat to the Magic Sandwich show, in which Thunderf00t tried to defend himself (which was awful, by the way: who thought it was a good idea to bring on four men to discuss how women should behave to avoid rape? Lilandra was the token woman, and they gave her very little time to speak). The answer: watch what they choose to wear (we’ll call that Factor B).

Again, we’re missing specifics. So women aren’t supposed to dress attractively? The whole world is sending women signals that they’re supposed to care about their appearance, and dress beautifully and apply makeup, and when men get together to mansplain how to avoid rape, their answer is…be less attractive. Right. So we’d expect that the male scale of feminine attractiveness is now equivalent to the scale of rapeability? What a damning relationship, if true…and of course it isn’t.

We’re still guessing at what factor C might be. Thunderf00t makes one of his typical clueless metaphors: that there’s something about women’s behavior that is like wearing a hardhat in a construction area. We have signs in such areas that warn people and tell them they must wear a hardhat, and we don’t get upset that it’s limiting people’s freedom to follow common sense rules.

So, I wonder, what is the hardhat equivalent for women’s behavior? What are they supposed to wear or do to protect themselves? Be specific. A construction site has specific risks — heavy falling objects — and a straightforward defensive measure — wearing a hardhat — to address the risks. Every woman in the world would love to know what simple defensive measure they can take to prevent all forms of rape.

Thunderf00t doesn’t have an answer to that. It’s all handwaving and invalid metaphors that break instantly upon inspection.

What he doesn’t address at all is the fundamental unfairness. Everyone, men, women, bosses, workers, wears a hardhat at a construction site. We don’t single out some group and say their heads are especially fragile so they need special protection. But we blithely assume that it is entirely reasonable to demand that women live with heightened risk.

My wife mentioned a simple example to me: she’d never walk into a parking garage alone late at night. And that’s a reasonable precaution she takes all the time. But think about it: if men had special reason to fear the security at a particular parking area, we’d be demanding more police patrols, greater video surveillance, that steps be taken to reduce the danger. But women? Heck, that’s just a consequence of their being the “weaker sex”, they need to adapt to deal with it.

Can you even image the reaction if people at a workplace were told that the company parking garage was risky, so you men need to partner up when you walk out to your car? Outrage and demands that the company fix the problem right now.

So Thunderf00t has invented an utterly useless pseudo-scientific formula to justify his views, and even the most casual analysis of possible factors to fit into it reveals that it simply cannot work, that it fits reality remarkably poorly, and that it is so sloppily defined that it is meaningless. I reject Thunderf00t’s ideas because they are appallingly bad science.

1. says

By the way, the Magic Sandwich show discussion was a total failure from the very beginning — a bunch of guys who are pals with Thunderf00t, and only one woman? Let me know if any women put together a podcast to tear into Flundersh00t’s baloney, that would be much more informative.

I was tempted to volunteer to host one, but nah…we don’t need more men doing this.

2. Jackie Papercuts says

Why do people laugh at Thunderfoot?

3. PZ:

Later in his video, he mentions “body language” as a factor in rape (let’s call that his factor A) — apparently, women just have to learn the right body language to discourage rapists…like being waspish or lionish.

Right. Apparently, this seriously factored into my walking across a parking lot, happy after a meet up with friends, and on my way home, where upon I was coshed on the back of the head, leading to the beating, rape, and attempted murder.

I expect the one solution Tfoot and buddies could come up with is the same old misogynistic one: Women, keep your place, and make sure you are properly owned by a man, there by you would be properly protected, as other men will respect the property of another man! Yeah.

4. lindsay says

A friend of mine was raped when she was twelve–our local sheriff abused his authority to do it. Another friend of mine was raped by a friend of her parents when she was thirteen–there was a party going on, and he came into her bedroom while she was sleeping in her own damn bed. I was dragged under the bleachers at a junior high dance–many people saw, but no one did anything about it. Jesus fuck, I’m tired of people like Thunderfoot who don’t have a damn clue spouting off.

5. Yeah, a family member started raping me when I was three years old. I’m sure it would be ever so educational to know just what body language I was using that meant I was just asking for it. Of course, I may have been provocatively dressed, I don’t remember.

6. carlie says

And I’m sure he thinks that rape doesn’t happen in societies where women wear body coverings from head to foot and don’t go outside without a male relative and never look other men in the eye, right? Since they’ve eliminated all the factors on their side?

7. Rob says

Sounds like Thunderfool is practising Taliban apologetics whether he realises it or not. Is that irony or merely unfortunate?

Either way I have long since given up caring a damn about his pig headed ignorant wilfully uninformed opinion.

8. Becca Stareyes says

As others have mentioned, people rape kids and teens. They rape the elderly and handicapped. They rape prisoners and POWs. About the only factor in common is that the victims are people who are vulnerable in some fashion, and they are in the presence of a rapist. Adult men are not often seen as vulnerable, so they have a much lower risk of rape. And telling people ‘don’t be seen as weak’ doesn’t work; we can’t help aging, or being handicapped, or being female, or being queer, or generally being human (and, thus, occasionally weak).

Also, telling women ‘don’t be weak’* doesn’t fix the problem that we have people who prey on the weak, and that is Not Okay. If I avoid all human contact, that might decrease my chances of being raped, but that won’t lower the number of rapes in this country. And, a society, that’s not a solution that scales well.

* And, as PZ, noted, sometimes that’s society. Outspoken women get rape threats for being strong when the threateners ‘know’ they should be weak.

9. maudell says

What a waste of an hour and a half that was. They should have called it the “Thunderf00t explains rape” show. It’s amazing how these guys think that pulling stuff out of your ass is the equivalent of expertise.

Two things: while he doesn’t have actual practical ‘advice’ in his video, the pointers he gives don’t work together. First, his whole argument (for example: don’t send body language that incites men to rape) is based on a ‘Schrodinger’s rapist’ premise. Women, expect that any man might rape you and take precautions, because of men’s biology. Teaching people about consent and rape is just as wrong as teaching gays to be straight. Rapist is a sexual identity, in TF’s world. But then he turns and blame women who take precautions in the presence of men as being anti-men. Also, a nice patronizing part about how women who try to avoid rape in this way will not find love, they will only find cats. What would I do without such sound advice? Next up: TF teaches women how to drink water. If you don’t drink water and you die of dehydration, you will not find the nice man you are so desperate to find, young lady!

I think it is relevant to add an easy control to his clothing/alcohol/body language. It sounds hyperbolic, but countries where women *have* to follow those rules hardly have less rape. It’s hard to know, because it’s dangerous for these women to report rape lest they get lashes for adultery. But really, is Saudi Arabia a good model of rape prevention? Oh, and then he goes on with a ‘feminists are puritans’ argument.

It also seems like they are completely unaware that men get raped too.

10. Where cyan are the factors women control, and red are the factors the rapists control. And therefore he’s only advocating that there are steps you can take to acceptably reduce your risk of rape, not that the rapist is excused.

As I’ve said several times, I despise this sort of libertarian thinking. Of course I don’t want to be raped. But that doesn’t mean I want other people to be raped instead of me. I don’t want anyone to rape anyone. I want social rape prevention. No factors that I allegedly individually control could do anything to address the social problem of rape, and the very idea that I have that individual control perpetuates that social problem.

Thunderf00t makes one of his typical clueless metaphors: that there’s something about women’s behavior that is like wearing a hardhat in a construction area.

And in the best of circumstances, this would be because even with every precaution freak accidents can happen and people should be as protected as possible from injury, and proper protective gear would be provided to everyone. It is by no means a viable alternative to demanding, in law and culture, that the owners/bosses of construction sites or any other workplace make the work as safe as possible, particularly if people on construction sites have unequal access to individual protection. The danger of work is a social problem that requires a social solution. Millions of people, men and women, are put in danger on their jobs in a wide variety of ways, and it’s appalling. The reasoned, ethical response to this isn’t to blame those hurt or killed for not adequately protecting themselves – it’s to address it as a social problem. It’s an indictment of our culture that this isn’t a moral starting point.

11. says

Also, telling women ‘don’t be weak’* doesn’t fix the problem that we have people who prey on the weak, and that is Not Okay.

that, plus you gotta remember that he’s not really telling women to make themselves stronger; he threw a massive shitfit at an attempt to empower women and thus reduce the power-imbalance involved. He’s telling individual women to become stronger than other women. It’s like that “you don’t have to be faster than a zombie/bear/mountain lion, you only have to be faster than the other person” joke; except seriously.

12. As soon as I started reading this, all I could think of was this. Hey Thunderfoot… http://youtu.be/5uecapxuY-k
If he values science and reason so much like he claims to, maybe he should spend more time searching the literature databases on rape research so he knows what the fuck he’s actually talking about. He wouldn’t accept this level of psuedoscience and out-of-the-ass cited bs coming from a religious person or new ager.

A personal rule of thumb of mine- the amount of time a person spends getting defensive over people who point out victim blaming and promote educating people about consent to prevent rape should be negatively correlated to the amount of time you want to spend alone with him.

13. says

Of course I don’t want to be raped. But that doesn’t mean I want other people to be raped instead of me. I don’t want anyone to rape anyone. I want social rape prevention. No factors that I allegedly individually control could do anything to address the social problem of rape, and the very idea that I have that individual control perpetuates that social problem.

QFT.

Even if we for a moment assumed the ludicrous bullshit he’s suggesting actually worked, it wouldn’t be rape prevention It would be rape displacement. It would make it so that more powerful women are raped less, but less powerful women are raped more. WTF sort of “prevention” is that?!

14. MJP says

One point that I’ve seen raised by other people, and a point that Thunderfoot seems to be missing, is that these precautions only deflect the risk of rape away from you individually and onto other women. And if all women take these precautions, their risk of being raped stays the same. A clear example of this is certain Islamic states where women are required to wear full-body coverings.

15. says

People keep framing this argument in a ridiculous way. I suppose that if I locked myself in a safe room it would dramatically decrease my chances of being raped, but it wouldn’t be a reasonable precaution.

Also, people who give a shit about sexism would be appalled at the notion that I should be expected to constrict my life to such an absurd degree in order to avoid being blamed for being raped. The thing the apologists don’t get is all these comparisons about locking up your car or staying out of bad neighborhoods are all things that don’t limit your freedom to live a normal life. The ‘common sense precautions’ against rape are not things that you can do and still live normally. Following the precautions means we are told what we can drink (or how much), what we can wear, what kind of body language we can have, how late we can be out, who we can talk to (or how). There are probably some I am forgetting here, but its a pretty inclusive ‘how to live properly’ guide that makes for a boring and isolated life. As other people pointed out, these things don’t even work, but if they did I wouldn’t take that bargain. I would rather live, dress, act, and speak as I please than to sacrifice my freedom for security.

16. diego says

I am disturbed that Thunderfoot has continued to become more of a misogyny apologist. I thought he was bad enough back when I unsubscribed from his channel a couple of years ago, but he seems to be only amping up the absurdity. It’s sad, because he was doing some pretty good work.

17. says

I suppose that if I locked myself in a safe room it would dramatically decrease my chances of being raped, but it wouldn’t be a reasonable precaution.

tsk tsk tsk. doing that would make you paranoid and possibly a manhater. As noted previously, you’re supposed to take precautions only enough to deter rapists, but not enough to inconvenience non-rapist men with your assumption that any of them might be a rapist. It’s every woman’s responsibility to get this balance just right, and if she doesn’t, it’s entirely sensible to say she partially caused what happened to her, since she didn’t behave the way dudely dudes in hindsight tell her she should have.

obviously.

18. says

We get ‘you weren’t raped you were just taken advantage of’ from our ‘allies’, ‘well it’s also your fault’ from those who would present themselves as neutral, and ‘well you fucking deserved it’ from our enemies.

And yet they will continue to wonder why some of us are becoming rather misanthropic. I don’t want to enroll my kid in sports because of what we hear about coaches. I became the den leader of his boy scout pack just because I couldn’t bring myself to trust anyone else in that position.

I just don’t get this asshole and his ilk.

If I assume each and every man I encounter is potentially a rapist, then I’m overreacting and a man-hater and a bitch and I deserve to be raped.
If I don’t, then I’m not doing anything to protect myself and I’m asking for it and I deserve to be raped.

Do they really expect none of us to note the problem with that?

19. says

so basically:
1)the suggestions don’t work. dress and body language are not partial causes for rape, and so changing it won’t get you less raped
2)even if that worked, it would merely displace rape
3)even if it worked, you’d be accused of man-hating if you actually practiced the advice consistently enough to have an effect.
4)if all women acted as advised, that would simply start a race to the bottom between women, to become the “least rapeable”, resulting in more and more restrictions on women, but not fewer rapes

It’s bullshit all the way down

20. says

One would think that a scientist, as Blundertoot purports to be, would know the value of basing opinions on the available evidence; or venturing into new territory with reasonable expectations of positive results. Yet here he is, rehashing the same advice that’s never worked, that makes several faulty assumptions, and effectively disregards every social dynamic in play. Hell, it’s not even clear at this point that he knows what rape *is*, yet he’s condescending to actual, real experts on how to prevent it. I’m just counting the days until he works the word “quantum” in there somehow, like women are in a constant state of being raped/not raped and collapse into one or the other based on the actions of the observer. Oh, wait. Might disrupt the “it’s your fault” narrative the jackhole keeps implying.

I mean, I’m no scientist or anything, but I know that the campaigns that teach men not to be rapists actually lead to a decrease in sex-related crimes, so, y’know, maybe there’s something to be said for that approach.

Did his degree come from an accredited university or a photocopier? Perhaps I’m being uncharitable; it could’ve been the prize in a cereal box.

21. sprocket says

To paraphrase Mal Reynolds: “My days of taking Thunderf00t seriously came to a middle a long time ago”

22. Zigbot says

I’m always amazed at the extraordinary lengths creepy guys will go to in order to avoid admitting that rape is violent assault. Not theft, not a natural disaster, and definitely not an accident caused by carelessness. It’s something that people choose to commit against other people. And yet there’s so much denial.

Can you imagine if we treated other kinds of violence this way?

“Well of course it’s terrible that your husband was kidnapped, Ms. Jones, but that backpack he was wearing was practically a giant signal broadcasting that he was available for a road trip. It’s a known fact that kidnappers target people who look like they’d be fun to travel with, and your husband not only had camping gear on him, but also a ‘Not All Who Wander Are Lost’ bumper sticker.”

“I don’t know, man, ‘battery’? He says it was just a boxing match that you regretted losing, and, well, you do have a gym membership. I’m not saying it was your fault, but you know you’re just making yourself look like an easy target by exercising regularly and wearing workout gear, right? Take some responsibility for yourself.”

“Hate group throwing bricks with threatening messages through your windows at your family, huh? Look, the simple fact of the matter is, rambunctious behavior is natural for mobs, and windows are a very breakable entrance into your house. I mean, look at this material. They can see right in! It’s simple logic: 100% of window-breakings happen to people whose homes have windows, so if you ask me, if you’re not living in a dank, dark, windowless hovel, you’re just not doing enough to protect yourself.”

23. kittehserf says

TW: rape-apologist sarcasm

The tl:dr from Chunderfool and all the other misogynists is that if you’re female, you’re a sexthing, and if some man follows his natural biological needs (y’know, the ones that regularly overwhelm his superior, totes logical, rational, dudely man-brain) it’s nothing to complain about. You should just shut up and be grateful for the attention. You’ve no right to give him a sad boner.

24. loopyj says

I’m not sure if anyone has pointed this out within this particular discussion of ‘How to avoid rape’, but here’s the deal: Rape is not a natural phenomenon. Rape is not like the weather – you can’t dress appropriately to protect yourself from its effects. I don’t even like the insistence on using the abstract term ‘Rape’, precisely because it makes it sound like something that just ‘happens’ without anybody’s agency, like cancer or earthquakes.

The only people who can ‘prevent rape’ are the ones doing the raping. So maybe instead of talking about ‘rape’, we should talk about ‘rapists’, and when we factor their agency into the equation, we can see clearly that they ARE the rape equation, and the probability of whether they’re going to rape is dependent entirely on them.

[Disclaimer: I actually haven’t read much at all about this current round of Thundercrap, because the guy creeps me out. When I first read about some Thundercrap a couple of years ago, I looked him up to see who everyone was talking about and discovered that he was the guy behind a video that I had watched via a link to youtube some time before then, a video I couldn’t get more than twenty seconds through due to his arrogant, condescending voice.]

25. says

@michaelblayney
I think Thunderf00t’s problem is slightly different from the outright woo-heads. He’s the type who’s well-educated on a particular subject and as a result has convinced himself that he is generally knowledgeable, even on subjects he hasn’t studied and has no personal experience. He’ also genuinely smart, with the result that he’s incredibly good at rationalizing his opinions and he has a lot of self-worth tied up in being the smart guy, so he’s highly motivated to prove that he’s right.

Those things go together to form a person who forms strong opinions on very slim basis and utterly refuses to consider that he might be wrong.

26. Even if we for a moment assumed the ludicrous bullshit he’s suggesting actually worked, it wouldn’t be rape prevention It would be rape displacement. It would make it so that more powerful women are raped less, but less powerful women are raped more. WTF sort of “prevention” is that?!

QFT to you, too.

so basically:
1)the suggestions don’t work. dress and body language are not partial causes for rape, and so changing it won’t get you less raped
2)even if that worked, it would merely displace rape
3)even if it worked, you’d be accused of man-hating if you actually practiced the advice consistently enough to have an effect.
4)if all women acted as advised, that would simply start a race to the bottom between women, to become the “least rapeable”, resulting in more and more restrictions on women, but not fewer rapes

It’s bullshit all the way down

And for this a million times.

27. F [is for failure to emerge] says

Hard hats work best in a culture where the convention is to not randomly throw things at people from above.

28. says

The hardhat analogy is the worst yet. Yes it’s reasonable for everyone to take this precaution on a construction site, because accidents happen at construction sites despite everyone trying – or at least hoping – to avoid injuring anyone.

Rape is not an accident. (<- I just typed that in all caps because I wanted to scream it. There were also swear words, and excessive punctuation too. But I don't want to be misperceived as screaming at the Horde.)

It would be more like a worksite where a couple assholes are actually trying to drop heavy equipment onto peoples’ heads below. We’d need a different approach than hardhats to deal with that problem.

29. says

@25

Fair enough, but I would think that recognizing one’s shortcomings is a hallmark of intelligence. Or at least self-awareness. Ugh, people are complicated.

30. mickll says

I’d be tempted to give this to one of his creationist opponents.

Probability of God making the Earth = BxGxFxWxWxSPxFxH

Where B is because the bible tells me so, G is for the Grand Canyon that we know came about because F is for the flood, W is for where you there? W is also for watches, because things are complicated and need a designer, SP is for special pleading because things were different back in Genesis times, F is for faith because so there and H is for hell which is where you are going!

Then I’d like him to tell me why is rapey equation was put together with better methodology than my YEC one!

31. Bicarbonate says

It’s so pitiful to watch him continue to self-destroy like this. Why doesn’t he just drop it?

32. abewoelk says

Women shouldn’t have to take precautions against rape because they should be able to go about their business without getting raped. We shouldn’t need airport security because religious nuts shouldn’t be hijacking or blowing up airplanes. For that matter, I shouldn’t have to change my computer passwords every six months so hackers can’t empty my bank account, and I should be able to leave my front door unlocked when I go to work in the morning. In other words, people should be decent human beings and treat each other honestly, ethically, and with respect.

Unfortunately, there are enough human vermin who don’t that I have to take off my belt and shoes whenever I fly, and women have to take precautions against getting raped. Rapists, and airline hijackers, should be harshly dealt with by the legal system when they get caught, and to the extent there can be social changes that reduce their numbers that should be done too, but there’s always going to be a certain number of them out there no matter what. Sorry; I wish the world weren’t like that too.

33. klatu says

Even if women could prevent rape by being more agressive or wasp-like or whatever, rapists will just focus on women who aren’t. So TF is fractally wrong, as usual. On top of being a massive asshole, as usual.

But what’s really creepy is the amount of time in energy he invests in his rape apologia.

34. says

It would be more like a worksite where a couple assholes are actually trying to drop heavy equipment onto peoples’ heads below.

specifically, it would be like a few people throwing heavy shit onto a specific group of people who are already wearing hardhats, and the others instead of telling the assholes to cut it out telling the attacked that they need to wear bigger hardhats. But not in the presence of people who won’t be throwing heavy shit at them, cuz doing so would mean the hardhat-wearers were mentally ill.

35. says

Bicarbonate

Why doesn’t he just drop it?

Just a personal opinion, but I suspect he likes the attention.

36. klatu says

time in and energy

37. says

We shouldn’t need airport security because religious nuts shouldn’t be hijacking or blowing up airplanes

now that’s a fitting analogy for the bullshit TF is spreading. It’s security theater, nothing more.

Oh wait, you were serious. lol.

38. Cyranothe2nd, there's no such thing as a moderate ally says

What he doesn’t address at all is the fundamental unfairness. Everyone, men, women, bosses, workers, wears a hardhat at a construction site. We don’t single out some group and say their heads are especially fragile so they need special protection.

It’s worse. The analogy would only hold true if there were some construction workers who just went around with sledgehammers, hitting workers and visitors to the site on the head. And instead of saying, “Hey, maybe we should stop those workers from doing that,” Thunderfool is instead engaged in a discussion of how thick, exactly, the hardhat needs to be and exhorting everyone to wear one at all times.

See, his ‘logic’ (and I used that word loosely) only makes sense if one thinks of rape as something that is naturally-occurring, and as something that only happens to those women.

39. Cyranothe2nd, there's no such thing as a moderate ally says

@ 32, abewoelk

there are enough human vermin who don’t that I have to take off my belt and shoes whenever I fly, and women have to take precautions against getting raped.

Because taking your shoes off at the airport totally keeps planes from getting hijacked, right? And if a plane does get hijacked, well that was your fault for sneaking a nail file on board.

…oh wait, that’s total nonsense. Just like this rape culture drivel.

Non-rape apologists are quite aware of the realities (some of us are *gasp* victims of sexual assault and/or rape, you know). We aren’t saying the world is idealistic. We’re saying focusing on the actions of the victim, like rape is some kind of natural disaster that just can’t be helped and we all have to pack a first-aid kit for, is assinine.

40. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

32
abewoelk

Women shouldn’t have to take precautions against rape because they should be able to go about their business without getting raped. We shouldn’t need airport security because religious nuts shouldn’t be hijacking or blowing up airplanes. For that matter, I shouldn’t have to change my computer passwords every six months so hackers can’t empty my bank account, and I should be able to leave my front door unlocked when I go to work in the morning. In other words, people should be decent human beings and treat each other honestly, ethically, and with respect.

Unfortunately, there are enough human vermin who don’t that I have to take off my belt and shoes whenever I fly, and women have to take precautions against getting raped. Rapists, and airline hijackers, should be harshly dealt with by the legal system when they get caught, and to the extent there can be social changes that reduce their numbers that should be done too, but there’s always going to be a certain number of them out there no matter what. Sorry; I wish the world weren’t like that too.

First, what Jadehawk said at #37. Second, fuck you for the othering. Doubt that’s going to help social changes to reduce rape or anything else for that matter. Third, I have a feeling based on experience this “hard punishment” is (by you) only for that fantasy of “really real rape” and metered out with unethical means. Fourth, fuck you for that dismissive, flippant “sorry, tough shit” attitude. There was ways to make this better. Actual, real ways proven to work, if only the world wasn’t filled with fuckers like you.

41. kittehserf says

abewoelk @32 – how often do you have to be told that rape prevention aimed at the victims does not work? Why do you think being told to change every goddamn aspect of our lives is comparable to the isolated instances of being checked through airport security (which affects the sexes equally)? Why do you think computer passwords are in any way comparable to bodily safety and autonomy?

You talk about rape as if it’s just another hazard, even if you dress it up with talk about human vermin. Nice bit of othering, btw. Have you forgotten, or are you just ignoring, that the vast majority of rape is not stranger rape at all? That it’s carried out by people known to the victim – mostly intimate partners, friends, relatives? Or does it suit you more to tell women, effectively, that the constraints we have to put on our entire lives are really no worse than you having to change a password now and then, and pretend that our homes aren’t the places we’re most likely to be raped?

Fuck your thinly disguised rape apologism.

42. karl says

I don’t know how YouTubers do it. I made a comment on the video 5 hours ago. Since then I have been responding and re-responding to comments on my comments. I’m exhausted! It feels like I’ve put in a day at work. And I have six more comments in my inbox, waiting for responses. If I choose to respond, each of my responses will garner more comments – growing my workload exponentially. If I don’t respond, the terrorists win – or something. I feel compelled to respond, but burned out. And it was less than a single day of engaging in YouTube comments.

Looking back, almost all my responses are hidden because they scored too low. What a waste of a day. I think I learned my lesson.

43. says

Anyone else see the irony in specifically Thunderfoot outlining a set of rules that women should have to follow in order to reduce their likelihood of being raped? This Thunderfoot: “If I want to chew on some womans leg in a bar, I don’t want to have to consult the conference handbook to see if this classes as acceptable behavior!” The notion that a single event might require him to restrain himself from certain behaviors–lest he be removed or labeled a creepy harasser–while participating in it is unthinkable in its oppressiveness, but the notion that women must follow a set of vague, often contradictory, rules–lest they be raped–is just the way things are, oh well, nothing to be done about it.

Thunderfoot seems to have a fetish for the status quo. He also seems to have a vested interest in ignoring the role of consent in these discussions.

44. says

Monitor note:
Please remember to use Nyms and comment numbers:

If you are replying to a specific comment, use the comment number and poster's name.

The Rules

45. says

ugh, If I was feet (thank god nope) after SomeGreyBloke’s blog and Rebecca Watson’s video, I would have really avoided to have any online presence for a while. Wait a couple of months until people forget all of this.

46. human vermin

Grr

47. Bicarbonate says

Non-rape apologists are quite aware of the realities (some of us are *gasp* victims of sexual assault and/or rape, you know). We aren’t saying the world is idealistic. We’re saying focusing on the actions of the victim, like rape is some kind of natural disaster that just can’t be helped and we all have to pack a first-aid kit for, is assinine.

Exactly. As if we didn’t already spend so much time and money (rent for the “nicest” neighborhoods we can afford, for example) avoiding rape and teaching our daughters how to avoid it. And worrying about it. And dealing with the aftermath.

48. Cyranothe2nd, there's no such thing as a moderate ally says

Tom Foss,

Well of course. See, Thunderf00t is a penis-bearer. That means that his right to have access to female bodies trumps all (even conference rules.) But vagina-havers must carefully conserve and hide their alluring sexuality (except around decent guys like TF, of course, because they shouldn’t be shrill, hysterical harpies!)

For real, TF is stealing his talking points straight from my fundamentalist xian unbringing.

49. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

Anybody know if thunderfootinmouth is a liberturd? That is the aroma I keep getting. Nobody can tell him what he can and can’t do…..

50. Al Dente says

Daz @35

Just a personal opinion, but I suspect he likes the attention.

My suspicion is that he refuses to admit he might be wrong and, worse, that other people might know more about a topic he’s invested considerable time and effort into than he does. Phil Mason has a PhD in chemistry. Somehow he thinks that means he’s knowledgeable about almost everything.

51. says

Inquiring minds want to know, abewoelk: what precautions should I take to avoid being raped? Be specific, now. I don’t want to get raped on my way home tonight. If I do though, and you haven’t shared these precautions with me, remember it will be all your fault.

52. kittehserf says

Tom Foss @43:

The notion that a single event might require him to restrain himself from certain behaviors–lest he be removed or labeled a creepy harasser–while participating in it is unthinkable in its oppressiveness, but the notion that women must follow a set of vague, often contradictory, rules–lest they be raped–is just the way things are, oh well, nothing to be done about it.

It’s amazing he isn’t saying it’s oppressive when women do try to obey all the Don’t Be Raped rules. Isn’t that denying the menz’ and their bonerz’ natural rights? How dare we suggest we’re off-limits to creepers and harassers and rapists totally nice dudes who just wanna be friendly and geez, can’t we take a compliment?

53. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

Phil Mason has a PhD in chemistry. Somehow he thinks that means he’s knowledgeable about almost everything.

*snicker* *Linus Pauling, Rustum Roy, etc.*

54. kittehserf says

irisvanderpluym @51:

Inquiring minds want to know, abewoelk: what precautions should I take to avoid being raped? Be specific, now. I don’t want to get raped on my way home tonight. If I do though, and you haven’t shared these precautions with me, remember it will be all your fault.

obvs, change the password on your vagina and make sure you walk through a metal detector (you know, the ones they have on the street corners).

55. unclefrogy says

the most charitable way to take what this guy says is to believe he feels powerless to prevent rapists from rapping and feels really bad about it so he advocates what he does and denies to himself that it will work in the real world because he can’t face the truth.
or he has in the past had none consensual sex and can’t cope with the idea that it might be classified as a rape so he refuses to acknowledge what rape is or to examine it in any objective way
and insists that it is women who are responsible forprotecting themselves because he surely can’t.
uncle frogy

56. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

irisvanderpluym @28:

Rape is not an accident.

Thank you. Quoted for truth.

(and I think you should have used all caps, swear words, and excesive puncuation)

Bicarbonate @31:

It’s so pitiful to watch him continue to self-destroy like this. Why doesn’t he just drop it?

Because it has given him an independent, very vocal, following who, if placed in a Venn diagramme, have virtually no intersection with people like PZed, or Watson, or Skepchick. If he stopped, or even toned down the rhetoric, his followers would turn on him. He is sort of in the same situation as the leaders of the current GOP — either keep moving right or lose whatever power they have.

This is a purely brown guess (pulled out of my arse).

abewoelk @32:

Unfortunately, there are enough human vermin who don’t that I have to take off my belt and shoes whenever I fly, and women have to take precautions against getting raped.

I am a man. I was raped repeatedly by my scout leader when I was nine and ten years old. I was involved in some pretty horrific shit that was beyond the pale of acceptable human behaviour. What precautions should I have taken? This is not a rhetorical question — please be specific.

Tom Foss @43:

Anyone else see the irony in specifically Thunderfoot outlining a set of rules that women should have to follow in order to reduce their likelihood of being raped? This Thunderfoot: “If I want to chew on some womans leg in a bar, I don’t want to have to consult the conference handbook to see if this classes as acceptable behavior!

Because Thunderf00t knows that he is not a rapist. And because he knows this, everyone else should know it, too. And therefore, since he is not a rapist, he can do whatever he wants whether the other person consents or not.

57. yubal says

Is that a case of “not even wrong” ?

58. Bicarbonate says

Unclefrogy @55

You’re really trying hard to be charitable there.

I have too much of a tendency to do that. I try to stop myself. I remind myself that slaves were always trying to figure out the masters, to understand their motivation so that they could avoid harm and that masters hadn’t the slightest inkling of what might have been happening in a slave’s heart and mind. It’s also like the title of that book for battered women: Why Does He Do That? The dominated will resort to psychology to try to understand.

And yet, it’s probably really really simple and a no-brainer. Just a question of, as Cyrano @48 has put here:

Thunderf00t is a penis-bearer. That means that his right to have access to female bodies trumps all (even conference rules.)

And Kiteshserf @52, to talk of men’s responsibility in rape is to deny

the menz’ and their bonerz’ natural rights

He’s just another angry asshole defending what he thinks are his natural rights.

59. kittehserf says

Bicarbonate @58

He’s just another angry asshole defending what he thinks are his natural rights.

Precisely. I wouldn’t mind betting he’s one of those men who’d admit to rape as long as the word itself wasn’t used.

60. Bicarbonate says

Ogvorbis @56

Because it has given him an independent, very vocal, following who, if placed in a Venn diagramme, have virtually no intersection with people like PZed, or Watson, or Skepchick. If he stopped, or even toned down the rhetoric, his followers would turn on him. He is sort of in the same situation as the leaders of the current GOP — either keep moving right or lose whatever power they have.

Maybe but I don’t think that’s really the crowd he wanted to be admired by. He was so head-over-heels happy when he was invited to blog on FtB.

61. kittehserf says

Bicarbonate @60 – I know zip about the man except for this misogynistic stuff, but it seems to me that if he doesn’t want those followers, he should stop pandering to them.

62. sprocket says

I am a man. I was raped repeatedly by my scout leader when I was nine and ten years old. I was involved in some pretty horrific shit that was beyond the pale of acceptable human behaviour.

I’m so sorry to hear that. Wish I had words to convey my sympathy accurately.

63. says

Maybe but I don’t think that’s really the crowd he wanted to be admired by. He was so head-over-heels happy when he was invited to blog on FtB.

Happy that he had infiltrated and could use their soapbox to denounce their existence and philosophy, from, what, his second post? It’s like the asshat who Poe’d his way into the Block Bot management this weekend–he wanted to get in so he could take it down from the inside.

64. brianpansky says

Is that a case of “not even wrong” ?

that’s kinda the impression i’m getting.

from what i’ve seen of his defenders (and his own video) it seems they are attacking the straw person position that “you should under no circumstances take steps to reduce your risks” (and also, for some reason, inflating the power of this technique and thinking basically all other ideas simply cannot work….even when they are given examples of how they are wrong)

then karen straughan came along, pointed out that RAINN has the following page:

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention

and somehow thought that was a point against feminists/t-foot critics, rather than a point against the entire premise of t-foots motivation for making the first video.

as if that wasn’t enough facepalm, she dropped a false feminist quote that i quickly found debunked here:

http://manboobz.com/2011/02/15/factchecking-a-list-of-hateful-quotes-from-feminists/

yet i got downvoted into oblivion for pointing this out, and told to “stop talking”…..after i point out an important factual error…and telling me i’m “putting women back a hundred years”…..when i point out that “all heterosexual sex = rape” is anti-woman.

karen’s defense was “I’ve read enough feminist theory from that time to be reasonably confident that her views were not being misrepresented.”

although i have to say that outdated feminist theory is kinda irrelevant anyways…

65. Bicarbonate says

Tom @63

Well, until then he’d only blogged about science and against creationism and religion, so it’s not evident that he was infiltrating. I think he just came in all entitled and privileged and so started throwing his weight and opinions around right away and was then devastated by the reaction and his eviction. He then concluded that feminism was ruining atheism (because he figures he represents atheism) and became a raepologist.

66. says

Has TF read any of the research on rape, or is he just pulling hypotheses out of thin air?

He’s starting to remind me of the creationists he used to mock. They would try to make a claim that on the surface seemed reasonable, then he would do an experiment to show how wrong it is.

67. says

Discussion is still going on. I got mad and left. Except for Aron and me, they are still defending TF and saying it was a matter of his tone. One of them wouldn’t let me finish a sentence, so I left. My point was TF puts the onus for rape on women. I wanted to do a better job with raising rape culture awareness, but anyone that would have balanced the numbers out except for Aron would get too mad to call in. It was pointless.

68. brianpansky says

@66
cethis

He’s starting to remind me of the creationists he used to mock.

i’ve already seen the fitting comparison made in someone’s comment who said “why do people laugh at thunderfoot?”

maybe someone can start that series of videos.

69. says

@Bicarbonate #65:

I think he just came in all entitled and privileged and so started throwing his weight and opinions around right away and was then devastated by the reaction and his eviction.

I really can’t imagine that he was “devastated” by the reaction and eviction. He came in hot, with formatting like Gene Ray, and immediately started taking shots at other FtB bloggers and the network’s apparent pet issues. If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say the most charitable interpretation is that he wanted to see just how far he could push the “freethought” envelope (through the common misunderstanding of the term), so he could demonstrate/confirm that it actually is “free from thought blogs,” or some such nonsense.

Either that, or he’s peeved that “Atheism+” was a lot more successful as a movement/branding effort than “PEARList.”

70. says

I also made the point that his suggestions were not actionable. I couldn’t follow the chat, so I didn’t see PZ’s question. I asked him since I work downtown, and take the bus to work what should I do? Should I have not have had a drink with him, PZ, and Aron at a Reason Rally Party?

On the token woman thing, they asked other women and I asked women too, but they said they would get too mad if they joined.

71. No One says

And it occurs to me that all the advice for rape prevention are the excuses that rapists use for committing rape.

72. says

Sigh, I gave thunderfoot money and even defended him against someone on teh youtubes comments some time ago. How do I get rid of the shame?

73. brianpansky says

My point was TF puts the onus for rape on women.

you’d think someone who understands how little it makes sense to place the burden of proof on atheists would be able to grasp how little it makes sense to rely upon those most vulnerable to rape to prevent rape.

there is also the whole “rape needs to be reduced, but the need for survival tactics doesn’t need to be reduced. it’s totally ok to just rely on wilderness survival tactics, no need to make our world actually civilized!”

someone suggested educating everyone with something easy enough for most people to do. even though it was simple, it was a very powerful way to disable someone. i just asked them why they thought having that technique widely known would reduce the incidence of rape, rather than increase it.

74. says

So Thunderf00t has invented an utterly useless pseudo-scientific formula to justify his views, and even the most casual analysis of possible factors to fit into it reveals that it simply cannot work, that it fits reality remarkably poorly, and that it is so sloppily defined that it is meaningless. I reject Thunderf00t’s ideas because they are appallingly bad science.

SSSSSsssssssss! He has sspoken the might word. The Word of SSSCCIENCE! But. It isss our dreaded enemy, presccciouss… What will a SSKEPTIC do to defeat the PeeZED?? Yess, preciouss, we shall demand evidencesss, and we shall mock them for having emotionssssss, yess, they’ll never know what hit them, the nasty feminisstsss won’t….

75. says

It’s amazing he isn’t saying it’s oppressive when women do try to obey all the Don’t Be Raped rules.

ah but that’s the thing. He is saying something similar, namely that if you do follow all these rules too much, you’re mentally ill and can only blame yourself for ending up alone. He said it in the same screed, only seconds apart from the part where he also says that not following the rules enough gets you raped.

76. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

No One @71:

And it occurs to me that all the advice for rape prevention are the excuses that rapists use for committing rape.

And even more, it gives the police an excuse to not investigate a reported rape (“You were drinking and you got into his car?”). It gives the survivor’s friends and family some really good ways to question whether it was really rape (“Why were you at the bar alone?”). It gives prosecutors a good reason to not bring charges (“So you and he have had sex before and now, suddenly, it’s rape?”). And it gives juries and judges good reasons to find the defendant not guilty (“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, look at the skimply clothing this teenage girl was wearing!”). Victim blaming — the gift that keeps on hurting.

gusdata @72:

How do I get rid of the shame?

There’s no shame. Changing one’s mind based on data, realizing that one was wrong when presented with contrary data, deciding that the data doesn’t fit someone else’s explanation, is what critical thinking is all about. Now, if you had seen the change and still supported him uncritically because he is ‘standing up to the FTBullies’, that would be worthy of shame.

77. abewoelk says

@ irisvanderpluym , No. 51, it’s going to be my fault anyway because I have a different opinion than the majority here, so even though we’re in agreement on the main points — rape is bad, rapists should be punished, it’s not the victim’s fault, women shouldn’t have to take precautions because men shouldn’t be raping in the first place — the fact that I dare deviate from the party line at all in even the tiniest respect means I’m going to get a bunch of “fuck you, fuckwits” for my trouble. You did hear me say all that — rape is bad, rapists should be prosecuted, it’s not the victim’s fault, women shouldn’t have to take precautions because men shouldn’t rape — didn’t you? You’re unleashing your opprobrium on someone who is 95% in agreement with you; I’m not Roosh.

To answer your question, we live in a dangerous world, and nothing — zip, squat, nada, de rien — is going to be a 100% guarantee that you (or for that matter me) won’t be raped tonight. So the argument that some women who take precautions end up getting raped anyway is mostly beside the point. What you can do is reduce the odds that you’ll be raped, just like not allowing guns on board airplanes reduces the odds of a hijacking. It’s not a sure-shot guarantee against a hijacking, but it reduces the odds, which is probably the best that can be done. Does not hanging out with drunk, stupid frat boys guarantee that you won’t be raped? No, but hanging out with drunk, stupid frat boys increases the odds that you will be.

I’m not particularly at risk for getting raped, but I’ve been a victim of other violent crime, so I’m not as cavalier toward victims as you think. I just believe that so long as the world is a dangerous place, there are better strategies than screaming obscenities at people who counsel that discretion is the better part of valor.

78. says

No, but hanging out with drunk, stupid frat boys increases the odds that you will be.

except for the part where half of rapes happen near one’s home, not at frat-houses. I guess we should be cautious and avoid ever being within 1 mile of our homes.

79. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

abewoelk @77:

What you can do is reduce the odds that you’ll be raped

I was nine years old. I joined Cub Scouts. I was raped, repeatedly, by my scout leader. I was forced to abuse others. I was photographed. He tried to make me into someone like him. So what, specifically, could I have done to reduce the chances of me being raped? This is not a rhetorical question, I really want to know the magic thing I should have done.

80. says

seriously, “don’t get drunk”, “don’t hang out with strangers” and similar bullshit is as useful in preventing rape as “don’t vaccinate your kids” is in preventing autism.

81. says

abewoelk #77

we live in a dangerous world, and nothing — zip, squat, nada, de rien — is going to be a 100% guarantee that you (or for that matter me) won’t be raped tonight. So the argument that some women who take precautions end up getting raped anyway is mostly beside the point. What you can do is reduce the odds that you’ll be raped

You think women don’t already know this? You think they needed Blunderbutt and yourself to point out that they might want to, oh, I dunno, go drinking with a friend, take a taxi instead of walking—again, preferably not alone—and all the other things they already do?

I just believe that so long as the world is a dangerous place, there are better strategies than screaming obscenities at people who counsel that discretion is the better part of valor.

Did you just happen to miss the part where Blunderbutt was dismissing the idea that teaching about consent would be effective? Or the part where he (wilfully?) misconstrued a consoling message that it’s not the victim’s fault as advice to ignore any and all safety precautions? I ask, ’cause that would sort of negate your claim that all he was doing was patronisingly counselling women to do what they already do.

82. says

just like not allowing guns on board airplanes reduces the odds of a hijacking

yeah. that is why we don’t allow guns on airplanes. not because bullets punch holes in airplanes. Jesus fuck, you’re dumb.

83. says

the fact that I dare deviate from the party line at all in even the tiniest respect means I’m going to get a bunch of “fuck you, fuckwits” for my trouble.

No. And it’s not just that you are wrong. If you were just wrong, you wouldn’t get quite so much abuse. But it’s lines like this one, where you aggressively deny that your words might have an emotional impact that would warrant such expressions of anger and hostility, that makes you both wrong, AND an asshole.

84. says

Incidentally, Kacyray, who I believe was banned from here a while back, is over at Avicenna’s pulling the exact same victim-blaming, “party-line” bullshit.

85. Bicarbonate says

The Magic Sandwich show just ended with DPR droning on and on and Aronra repeating himself over and over and then they kissed and made up.

86. kittehserf says

ah but that’s the thing. He is saying something similar, namely that if you do follow all these rules too much, you’re mentally ill and can only blame yourself for ending up alone. He said it in the same screed, only seconds apart from the part where he also says that not following the rules enough gets you raped.

Halp
anyone seen my eyes? They just rolled out

Seriously, I shouldn’t be surprised that he really did say this. (Haven’t watched his videos, etc; I value my stomach contents.) It’s par for the course. Why doesn’t this gobshite just say he’s an MRA, start posting on AVfM, and be done with it? (Don’t say he already has, I haven’t any spare eyeballs.)

abewoek @77:

What you can do is reduce the odds that you’ll be raped,

Except you’re ignoring what’s been pointed out, by me and others: the majority of rapes are committed by boyfriends, husbands, friends, colleagues, acquaintances, family members. So your bullshit about reducing the odd is not addressing the main source of threat to women, it’s just reinforcing the stranger-in-the-bushes stereotype. You’re diverting attention from the real threat and the anti-rape campaigns that DO work. Your claims to care about women and how bad rape is ring very hollow when you trot out rape apologist lines like this. Because it always comes down to blaming victims for not taking all the precautions … and that’s when rape apologists like TF are not, as Jadehawk pointed out, saying women are paranoid and crazy and man-hating for taking the very precautions we’re told we must.

So I repeat: fuck you, rape apologist.

87. Christoph Burschka says

Probability of rape = AxBxCxDxExFxGxH

… and I thought there was nothing that could make the Drake equation look even sillier.

88. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

What you can do is reduce the odds that you’ll be raped, just like not allowing guns on board airplanes reduces the odds of a hijacking.

That is rape apologist talk. Rape is caused by rapists, and until you evidence that the precautions actually work are described, they are urban myth. Get with the program. Show real and solid evidence, not just opinion, or shut the fuck up.

89. Anri says

Unfortunately, there are enough human vermin

(snip)

Have we determined what percentage of our DNA actual humans share with human vermin?
Is higher or lower than what we share with chimps?
Have we instituted some sort of test – blood maybe, or skin samples – to see if someone is one of these ‘human vermin’ as opposed to a real human?

who don’t that I have to take off my belt and shoes whenever I fly, and women have to take precautions against getting raped.

They have to, to prevent being raped?
Or do you mean that, in your humble opinion, they should?
Because if women have to take precautions against rape, that would mean in the overwhelming number of cases, women who ‘take precautions’ don’t get raped, while women who don’t, do. It would mean that taking precautions is an effective (even of not 100%) preventative against rape.
Is that the case?

In other words, if a woman doesn’t take precautions, and isn’t raped, did she have to take precautions? What maker her situation different from a woman who doesn’t take precautions and is raped?
(Hint: it has to do with the fact that you can’t rape yourself.)

Rapists, and airline hijackers, should be harshly dealt with by the legal system when they get caught, and to the extent there can be social changes that reduce their numbers that should be done too, but there’s always going to be a certain number of them out there no matter what. Sorry; I wish the world weren’t like that too.

And, tell me, is the attitude of ‘well, yanno, rapists gonna rape, girls gotta stay pure!’ driving social change in the direction of less acceptance of rape?
Or more?

Is is opposing rape?
Or allowing for it?

Is it just a coincidence that these kinds of excuses for rape are the same one we see cropping up in the thought processes of people who have raped, but don’t call it rape?

90. lindsay says

@ 77 abewoelk

As I briefly mentioned earlier, I was dragged under the bleachers at a junior high dance held in my school’s gym and sexually assaulted. No one was drinking. I was wearing jeans and a sweater. Several people saw me being dragged away against my will, but no one thought to help me. Please, please tell me what I could have done to prevent this, other than stay home.

91. No One says

@76 Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All!

No One @71:

And it occurs to me that all the advice for rape prevention are the excuses that rapists use for committing rape.

And even more, it gives the police an excuse to not investigate a reported rape (“You were drinking and you got into his car?”). It gives the survivor’s friends and family some really good ways to question whether it was really rape (“Why were you at the bar alone?”). It gives prosecutors a good reason to not bring charges (“So you and he have had sex before and now, suddenly, it’s rape?”). And it gives juries and judges good reasons to find the defendant not guilty (“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, look at the skimply clothing this teenage girl was wearing!”). Victim blaming — the gift that keeps on hurting.

I’m not a woman, but if someone was giving out the type of advice that TF was giving, in the manner he was giving it in… alarms would go off in my brain. I would give that person a wide berth. Just in case.

92. kittehserf says

Anri @89:

Have we determined what percentage of our DNA actual humans share with human vermin?
Is higher or lower than what we share with chimps?
Have we instituted some sort of test – blood maybe, or skin samples – to see if someone is one of these ‘human vermin’ as opposed to a real human?

Maybe it’s like that Venn diagram PZ had up here, showing mice and humans have more DNA in common than either has with cats.

Except I don’t reckon abewoek is one of the Furry Feline Overlords, so his othering doesn’t work.

Shorter abewoek: ::shrug:: well, men are gonna rape, it’s just a natural guy thing vermin thing, ya gotta take precautions, it’s just like walking on rough pavement, accidents happen!

93. louisi says

watch what they choose to wear (we’ll call that Factor B)

Yep, that’s “B for Burqa” kids.
Sighs.

I’m pretty sure TF really simply is incapable of understanding that he’s making exactly the same argument are some of the most regressive religions out there.

94. Rey Fox says

rape is bad, rapists should be prosecuted, it’s not the victim’s fault, women shouldn’t have to take precautions because men shouldn’t rape

Wow, such bold stances.

95. kittehserf says

louisi @93 – incapable, or doesn’t care?

96. Zigbot says

Abewoelk, I’m gonna try to break it down for you in teeny-tiny little words why your ideas are garbage. Not necessarily because I think you’re going to see the light, though I hope you will, but because I think it will be therapeutic for me.

First, take a look at the kind of precautions that rape apologists propose, and compare them with what we know about rapists from social science and rape-prevention campaigns that actually work. If someone compiled a list of things women could do that would decrease their chances of being raped that was based on the evidence, it would be made up of things like “don’t have male friends” and “never enter into a committed relationship.” I for one have never heard anyone advise any of those things to women as safety tips. No, instead it’s just stuff that might as well be a list of tips for 50’s housewives on how to perfect a dainty feminine allure. Ask yourself why there might be such a huge discrepancy between the tips that could actually be effective, and the tips that women get.

Because here’s the thing. Things like “don’t drink,” “dress modestly,” “don’t leave the house at night,” and “have a chaperone at parties” — not one of those things is going to decrease rape rates. They are literally just a bunch of bullshit conservative ideas of how a proper woman behaves. It’s old-school sexist propaganda, designed to scare women into believing that rape is the natural consequence of venturing outside of the domestic and servile spheres of life. Because the fact is, rapists do not care how their victims dress or drink (except inasmuch as other people blaming the victim for those things makes it much easier to get away with raping them), and the vast majority of their rapes are of women they know, often in their own homes — you know, that place women should supposedly stay so as not to get raped. The “rape prevention tactics” aimed at victims that our society endorses are about keeping women in line, not stopping rape. And ironically, by normalizing the idea that women are responsible for stopping men from raping them, they’ve probably actually enabled a lot more rapes than they’ve stopped.

So to sum up, when you tell women that restricting themselves from public life will keep them safe from rape, you’re at the very least spreading serious misinformation, and at worst emboldening the rapists around you to rape more. So please just sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, and stop spouting this mindless garbage, because you could not be more wrong.

97. says

The worst case scenario is not the Abewoelk enables the rapists within metaphorical earshot. The worst case scenario is that that happens AND the overall effect is enough to counteract legal and social advances, and the social order where women are confined to the private rather than the public sphere is returned, and we women live tiny, confined lives, like our sisters in Saudi Arabia (and so many other places) do right now. Because THAT is where this is coming from, and that’s where it’s headed if we allow it. “Don’t go out after dark, this is a sundown town you might get raped.” The way Thunderfoot himself frames it, rape functions as a hate crime against women to penalize them for attempting to participate in public life in the same ways men do. It’s gender terrorism designed to return the old social order.

98. kittehserf says

Imagine if the curfew situation were reversed, like Golda Meir suggested all those years ago. Imagine the men screaming about their loss of liberty if they were told not to go to certain places, or drink too much, or be in mixed company, or all the other things women are routinely told. Yet it would be, in the vast majority of cases, that men were told they couldn’t do these things because they might rape someone.

“But we’re not rapists!” they would cry. And, sure, most (but not enough) would be telling the truth. Yet they, even as potential criminals, would feel justly outraged at being so circumscribed.

Yet when women, the potential victims, have all these limits placed on us, so many men – supposedly totes-against-rape men – shrug and say it’s just commonsense. It’s just precautions. Rapes just happen, y’know? They’re just like tornadoes. They’re not actually things that people (mostly men) choose to do to another human being.

99. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

97
SallyStrange

The worst case scenario is not the Abewoelk enables the rapists within metaphorical earshot. The worst case scenario is that that happens AND the overall effect is enough to counteract legal and social advances, and the social order where women are confined to the private rather than the public sphere is returned, and we women live tiny, confined lives, like our sisters in Saudi Arabia (and so many other places) do right now. Because THAT is where this is coming from, and that’s where it’s headed if we allow it. “Don’t go out after dark, this is a sundown town you might get raped.” The way Thunderfoot himself frames it, rape functions as a hate crime against women to penalize them for attempting to participate in public life in the same ways men do. It’s gender terrorism designed to return the old social order.

Goddamn, I ♥ this entire comment.

100. brianpansky says

@98
kittehserf

thanks for mentioning that reversal, it’s great for demonstrating some problems with this “advice”, but i keep forgetting about it.

“But we’re not rapists!” they would cry.

“ya, neither are the people who are being told to avoid getting raped” i would reply.

101. omnicrom says

So Abewoelk, will you be coming back with another comment? If so some advice.

Your ideas of “Reducing the chances of rape” is Bullshit because you have no evidence. Zigbot @96 provided detailed evidence of Rape Prevention that actually works and provided actual statistics of rape. Nerd @88 nailed it by calling the hackneyed lines of “Dress conservatively” and “have a chaperone” Urban Myths. Because they are. If you believe otherwise provide substantive evidence (not “Common Sense” or suchlike) because you are against the grain of data. This is why you are getting a backlash, not because you aren’t “Toeing the party line”, but because you’re unscientific and because you’re providing cover for rapists by putting the onus of blame on the victim.

Women in Burqas get raped in their own home. The blame of rape is on the rapist.

102. Koshka says

abewoelk #77,

I am not as cavalier toward victims as you think

Ogvorbis and lindsay have both asked you questions as victims of rape.
Maybe you could respond to back up your claim.

103. Zigbot says

Sally Strange, you’re totally right. Thanks for the correction.

104. says

brianpansky, as you’ve already been told, the majority of rapes happen with perpetrators and victims who already know each other. None of your rape avoidance tips help there.

105. says

Oh I’m so sorry brianpansky, I misread you completely.

106. Later in his video, he mentions “body language” as a factor in rape (let’s call that his factor A) — apparently, women just have to learn the right body language to discourage rapists…like being waspish or lionish. I think. Looking fearful is apparently a bad thing — so ladies, if you get raped, perhaps it’s because you weren’t presenting yourself forcefully enough

Ugh. One of the reasons I haven’t been involved in this discussion at all, is how triggering this is for me. Just the comments I read and the first post you made on this, PZ, convinced me that watching the video or even reading the counter arguments was too much to handle–however brilliant those responses were. I love watching Rebecca Watson, but I could only watch a few minutes of her video before it became too much. And, OK, that happens some times; it’s something you learn to live with when you have PTSD,. It doesn’t happen to me as frequently anymore, and usually I’m able to handle these discussions fine…but this video…it was too toxic.

I’m pretty sure it’s because the whole “body language” victim blaming gig is something my dad pulled after I was raped. He’s told me repeatedly that I was raped because I “looked like a victim”. He took me to a park, a few weeks after the rape, made me sit on a bench and watch all the women walking by. He would point out the women rapists would target: women hunched over in on themselves, looking at the ground, clutching their purse. “If I was a rapist, I would go after her.” And then he’d point out the women who were not “victims”: women who walked tall, long strides, swinging their arms, eyes up and watching everything, confident. “A rapist would never target a woman like that. A rapist would just let that one go.” And the worst is, I know he was doing this because he loves me, because he felt helpless after finding out I’d been assaulted, because he wanted to do something to make sure I’d never go through that again.

But it still hurt. For a long time (hell, okay, to be honest, it’s still something I struggle with), I felt like it was my fault. If only I hadn’t been hunched in on myself. If only I hadn’t been digging through my purse looking for my lighter–if only I hadn’t been smoking in the first place, because smoking (or women smoking) was something that set him off, apparently.

And, okay, let’s even assume that he’s right. The problem is that most rapes are not “stranger rapes”. Yes, I was assaulted by a (mostly) stranger walking home from work. But rapes like that account for, what, 20% of the total number of rapes that occur? How the hell are you supposed to not “look like a victim” or have the proper body language (of a wasp or lion, apparently) in your everyday life, with your boyfriend, other friends, in your home (where, statistically, most rapes will take place) all day every day? What would that even mean or look like? And how many friends, do you think, this Wasp Woman would have, at the end of the day? (And how much you wanna bet there would be another Thunderfoot video about how evil Wasp Women are ruining atheism because they’re so defensive and prickly and mean?)

I’ve said it before: I liked a lot of Thunderfoot’s videos years ago. They were instrumental in my early skeptic development: learning to spot flawed arguments, how to respond to common arguments, etc. I grew up believing all that Creation Science stuff…I knew it was wrong, but I didn’t really understand why or how to prove it, until I started watching his series. So I have no “anti-Thunderfoot” agenda. It genuinely hurts to see one of my early teachers in logic and critical thinking displaying such a complete lack of logic and an total unwillingness to examine his arguments critically or engage honestly with people who disagree with him.

107. abewoelk says

First of all, anyone who thinks I’m a rape apologist after I clearly and unambiguously said it’s not the victim’s fault and the rapists should be prosecuted is either completely delusional or simply dishonest. It’s difficult to imagine what could be less of an apology for rapists than saying they should go to jail and it’s not their victim’s fault. So, if you want to discuss my ideas, fine, but claiming I’m a rape apologist simply means you don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Second, just because a child who is raped by a scoutmaster couldn’t have done anything to prevent it doesn’t mean there is nobody else in the world who was raped who couldn’t have prevented it. A child who is dragged behind the bleachers probably couldn’t have done anything to prevent it, and I have not said that __every__ rape victim could have prevented it. Some people who never smoke get lung cancer anyway; that doesn’t change the fact that people who do smoke are putting themselves at higher risk. And we’re talking about playing the odds here.

Third, it is possible to simultaneously hold both the view that a rapist should go to jail, and that his victim failed to exercise common sense. The two are not mutually exclusive. If I leave my front door unlocked, that doesn’t justify a burglar walking in and taking my stuff, but it’s still a dumb thing to do. Dumb of me or not, the burglar should still go to jail. And if I want to flash my money in public, that doesn’t give anyone the right to mug me, but it’s still a dumb thing to do.

Finally, it’s a huge leap to say that suggesting people take reasonable precautions is simply a slippery slope toward burkas, and I haven’t said a word about how women should dress. Frankly, women can walk around stark naked for all I care, and that still wouldn’t give anyone the right to rape them. I’m talking about stuff like not getting drunk at parties where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys, and not getting into cars with men you don’t know well, and not going home with someone you just met at a singles bar. I’ve seen women — men too — do all those things. It does not give anyone the right to rape them, but they’re still monumentally stupid things to do.

Even if we for a moment assumed the ludicrous bullshit he’s suggesting actually worked, it wouldn’t be rape prevention It would be rape displacement. It would make it so that more powerful women are raped less, but less powerful women are raped more. WTF sort of “prevention” is that?!

Yes, yes, 1000x yes. I never thought of it that way before; this is perfect. I will be using this in the future, thank you.

109. says

Monitor Note:

You may be banned from a comment thread if:

The Rules

abewoelk this means you.

110. says

First of all, anyone who thinks I’m a rape apologist after I clearly and unambiguously said it’s not the victim’s fault and the rapists should be prosecuted is either completely delusional or simply dishonest.

Have you considered the possibility that you’re doing rape apology without intending to? Have you considered that rape victims themselves frequently blame themselves, and other victims, and engage in apologia, sometimes even on behalf of their own assailant? What makes you think you’re so special, that you’d be immune to that social pressure?

111. anathema2 says

@ abewoelk # 107:

I’m talking about stuff like not getting drunk at parties where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys, and not getting into cars with men you don’t know well, and not going home with someone you just met at a singles bar. I’ve seen women — men too — do all those things. It does not give anyone the right to rape them, but they’re still monumentally stupid things to do.

And other commenters have already explained that most rape victims are raped by someone that they know. So, really, by your logic you ought to be telling women never to get into a car with men that they know well. By your logic, women who are alone in their own homes with their husband or their boyfriend are being “monumentally stupid.”

112. says

I’m talking about stuff like not getting drunk at parties where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys, and not getting into cars with men you don’t know well, and not going home with someone you just met at a singles bar. I’ve seen women — men too — do all those things. It does not give anyone the right to rape them, but they’re still monumentally stupid things to do.

Exactly. Live a small, confined life. Pretend you’re in Saudi Arabia. And you’ll reduce your chance of getting raped by a whopping 40%, max, for the low, low price of giving up on social and economic equality for women.

113. PatrickG says

where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys

Excerpting this because, y’know, it’s relevant.

How about we teach those frat boys about consent? From an early age? Through public relations campaigns? Is that ok?

Thunderf00t doesn’t think so. Do you share that opinion?

114. says

Furthermore, Abewoelk, stop comparing rape to mugging or other sorts of property theft. My pussy is not like your wallet. My pussy is my body. My pussy is me. I can’t fucking lock it up.

If you must compare rape to some other crime in order to get a handle on it, compare it to torture. The deliberate infliction of pain and suffering for the gratification of the assailant. See? My body is not property, my pussy is not a thing a rapist can take. Nothing is being “taken” during a rape, stop thinking that way, that sort of thinking is what leads to rape apologia. Inadvertent perhaps? Charitably granting that you’re being as dense as you are without meaning to. What is happening during a rape is that dominance is being exerted. That’s where the thrill comes from. Torture is far more similar to rape than mugging is; it’s no coincidence that sexual assault and sexual humiliation are essential tools of torturers around the world.

Another crime you could compare it to is lynching: the targeted extralegal punishment of a formerly legally and presently socially/economically oppressed subset of society for straying from the boundaries of the old social order.

Got it? DO NOT COMPARE RAPE TO PROPERTY THEFT EVER FUCKING AGAIN. WOMEN ARE NOT THINGS.

115. Anri says

abewoelk @ 107:

So, if I read you right, you’re saying that sometimes people make bad decisions, fail to take basic precautions, do not exercise common sense, leave themselves open to being taken advantage of…

…but we would never dream of saying they’re at all responsible for what happens to them.

Gotcha.

As I said earlier, it might just be a coincidence that the types of arguments you use are also used by rape apologists. That doesn’t make you a rape apologist. It just makes you willing to use the same arguments as rape apologists. We’ll be able to tell you apart from the real rape apologists by the fact that real rape apologists never say “I am not a rape apologist!” or “I think rapists should totes be punished!” the way you do.
I mean, the fact that real rape apologists do actually say those things is inconvenient for your argument, so we’ll just ignore it.

Just a quick bit more:

Third, it is possible to simultaneously hold both the view that a rapist should go to jail, and that his victim failed to exercise common sense.

Yes, but it is nonsensical to say that if exercising ‘common sense’ would have prevented a rape, and a rape victim didn’t do so, that they are not at least partially to blame for the rape.
That’s blaming.
The victim.
That’s called… wait, I bet you can get that one on your own.

So which is it?
Are women partially to blame when they get raped?
Or are their actions in not relevant to the cause of the rape?
And if it is the latter, why are we discussing what they shoulda/coulda/woulda done?

To put it another way, why is it only fair game to critique the actions of women before they are rape victims, but not after?

116. @ abewoelk # 107

First of all, anyone who thinks I’m a rape apologist after I clearly and unambiguously said it’s not the victim’s fault and the rapists should be prosecuted is either completely delusional or simply dishonest. It’s difficult to imagine what could be less of an apology for rapists than saying they should go to jail and it’s not their victim’s fault. So, if you want to discuss my ideas, fine, but claiming I’m a rape apologist simply means you don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Ah, I see. You have no idea what “rape apologist” actually means.

Why am I not surprised? Another dude coming into a discussion on rape apology and victim blaming, with people who have studied–or, you know, actually experienced–rape/rape culture, who doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about, trying to tell us silly ladies why we’re so wrong–without bothering to look at the years and years of accumulated studies and information that directly contradict him. So sure that his argument is unique and needs to be read, not realizing that we have heard these exact words over and over and over and over and over, in every fucking rape discussion ever (at least on the internet).

You’re argument has been answered. By people here, sure, but over and over by many many men and women over the years. If you respected the topic or the people involved, you would have done something like a cursory google search, educated yourself before you started blabbing. Clearly, you don’t.

You are the creationist who pops into every discussion on evolution. You are the obnoxious dude spouting, “Evolution is just a theory!” You do not understand the words being used in this discussion.” You are the whiny guy insisting, “There are no transition fossils! No one has ever found the missing link!” Ignoring all the evidence that predates your argument, the evidence people have provided you in-thread.

So, frankly, this is going to be my last response to you. If you don’t have enough respect for the subject to do your fucking homework before repeating (over and over) the same stupid bullshit we’ve heard a million times, I’m not going to engage you.

I’m talking about stuff like not getting drunk at parties where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys, and not getting into cars with men you don’t know well, and not going home with someone you just met at a singles bar.

So, yeah, two problems. (Actually, more than two, but I’m sticking with two.) One, what everyone has said over and over and over, the vast majority of rapes are perpetrated not by drunk frat-boys, but by people you know, intimate partners, family, loved ones. And they take place in your own home. But this has been repeated multiple times, so I’m not going to dwell.

Second problem: so much of this “how not to get raped” advice is contradictory. There is literally no way to win. Let’s take your “don’t get into cars with men you don’t know well” piece of advice, okay? So, a few years back, I was raped while walking home from work. My home was half a mile away, in a “nice” area, so I felt safe. I’d lived in this neighborhood for six years or so, and nothing bad had ever happened. But, it was after eleven when I started walking home. Several people expressed worry about my walking home, but I didn’t have a car, I wasn’t allowed to drive (health reasons), and I needed my job. When I could, I had friends or family give me a ride home, but for the most part, I walked.

The night I was raped, one of the guys I worked with–a guy I didn’t know very well at all; in fact, a guy who kind of twigged my “creep” radar–offered me a ride home, as he did occasionally. And, as always, I turned him down. In hindsight, that was a fucking stupid thing to do. I could have been home in five minutes, avoided all the pain and trauma I went through and put my family through. Again, it’s a place where I struggle with blaming myself, hating myself, for what I did.

But if I had gotten in that car–with the guy I didn’t know at all beyond a nodding acquaintance at work, whose name I don’t think I even knew, a guy who set off my “creep” radar–and he had driven me to a dark alley and raped me, instead of taking me home…would that have been my fault, too? For getting in the car with a guy I didn’t know well?

How the hell was I supposed to know that in the harm-reduction cost-benefit safety analysis I made that night (in about three seconds, mind, I didn’t exactly have time to get out pencil and paper) walking home–something I had done dozens of times before with exactly no problem–was the wrong choice, while getting in a car with a virtual creepy stranger was the right choice. But you’re telling me getting into his car would have been the wrong choice? Are you seeing the problem, here?

I’m going to borrow a statement from Melissa at Shakesville: I had walked home alone, at night, through that neighborhood, dozens of times before that night. The difference was not my behavior, the difference was the presence of my rapist. He is the factor that led to my rape.

Anyway, I’m done. Had to get this off my chest. If you do a little basic reading and start listening to what people are saying here, I might consider engaging further with you, but for right now, like I said, I’m out.

117. John Smith says

Why the constant appeal to emotion in these arguments, from what i can tell Thunderf00t is just making logical arguments of which i have not seen a legitimate response to. You despise fake equations? Do you have any idea what an equation for predicting human behavior would look like because i sure as hell don’t but i can confidently say that it would be extremely^million times complex (hows that for a fake equation). Its obvious from the context that the point he was trying to make was that if you take steps to prevent rape overall it will lower the chance of being raped perhaps not by much perhaps by a lot maybe not at all depending on the circumstance. I’m not going to speculate. THIS SEEMS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS and to suggest he is saying simply times some probabilities together and you will get your chance to be raped number is ridiculous. As for this whole beef with him saying body language can influence rape i don’t see your problem with this. Some rapists say that a factor while choosing their victim is a certain type of body language so thunderf00t says if you don’t display said body language but a body language which some rapists say deters them then you will reduce your chance of being raped at no point does he say its your fault for not doing it. From what i have read it seems many of you have not actually watched the video and those that have are not looking at it logically but emotionally. Also please try and read this reply logically I am simply addressing discrepancies in the arguments this in no way is influenced by my point of view. If there is something logically wrong with what i have said please tell me and we will all be the better for it as I know my logic is not perfect.

118. Ingdigo Jump says

Fuck off Spock

119. says

John Smith, there are currently three threads open on this topic.

120. mesh says

@ abewoelk

Finally, it’s a huge leap to say that suggesting people take reasonable precautions is simply a slippery slope toward burkas, and I haven’t said a word about how women should dress.

Yes, we’ve noticed that you are excessively vague when it comes to the subject of reasonable precautions. Can you name just one that we can discuss that you think is comparable in effectiveness to locking your front door to prevent burglary?

121. says

I swear there must be a bloody production line somewhere.

122. chris pine says

123. gmacs says

I’ve always just seen Thunderf00t as one of those atheists who just disses on religion because it makes him feel bigger. He’s always struck me as being in it for selfish reasons (from what little I’ve ever watched or read) and so it comes as no surprise that he’s a self-centered, privileged windbag.

I find it especially amusing unsurprising that such a bloviating Islamophobe has, as others have already pointed out, begun speaking like a misogynistic Imam.

I’ve noticed that pattern among those kinds of atheists. If they criticize one religion more than others (usually Islam), then they usually turn out to be a sexist ass as well.

124. Ingdigo Jump says

Monitor Alert: Spam #122. Could one of you send a clean up flare?

125. @ John Smith #117

Let me convert your argument into something you may understand:

Even science admits that Evolution isn’t a fact. It’s just a theory!

Why aren’t there any transitional fossils, huh? Show me one transitional fossil!

Where’s the missing link? No one has ever found a fossil of one species turning into another!

If people came from monkeys, than why are there still monkeys, huh?

This is what you sound like.

Everything that you asked has been answered over and over and over and over and over and over and over. You think you’re presenting something new and unique, that we’ve never considered before? You are so obviously coming into this discussion without doing even a tiny bit of reading up on what we are talking about. You are clueless. But instead of keeping silent, reading what the experts (or, at least people far more educated that you in the subject) are saying, learning from people who have done the hard work of learning about this subject–or, you know, experiencing it first hand–you have instead decided to just ignorantly bleat the same damn shit.

Do your own homework, asshole. You are wrong. You are so wrong that it would take pages and pages for me to pull apart everything that’s wrong, and I’m not going to do that. There’s this new thing called “Google”, have you heard? There are even “Feminist 101” sites, places that will give you a detailed intro into the facts of rape, rape culture, rape apologia, etc.

When you’ve studied up, when you can communicate like a grown-up and actually discuss the relevant issues in a respectful manner, maybe than we can talk. But I’m not going to debate you, anymore than I’d debate a dumbass creationist who can do nothing more than spout Ray Comfort’s talking points.

No. And fuck you, too.

You do realize this is not some esoteric philosophical discussion for most of us, right? You do understand that many of us have actually experienced rape, sexual assault, molestation and child abuse? That this is not hypothetical? That we know what we’re talking about because we have directly experienced it ourselves?

Seriously. FUCK YOU.

126. says

Ing

will do, thanks

127. says

Yesss preciousss… accusse them of having lots of nassty FEELINGS, yes… we hatess emotionssss, yes we does, preciouss!

Can we simply start ignoring TF now? The guy is like a creationist, but with less solid science.

129. mesh says

Well, you’ve seen it here, folks – when men are condescending to women while deliberately remaining ignorant of the facts it’s “just helpful advice”. However, when a woman says “guys, don’t do that”, well, that’s a crime punishable by nothing less than rape and death threats, and an ongoing harassment campaign, obviously!

130. John Smith says

Well that was helpful. I just got told I’m an idiot with no explicit information as to exactly how i was wrong just once again bombarded with emotional bs and telling me i don’t know anything because I’m not an expert? an argument is based on its merits not the person making it (not to say mine was great). Just make ONE valid point at where i was wrong and i will believe you, you dont need to write pages just one thing. Stop being so hostile maybe i actually wanted to learn not everyone is an expert. Also to suggest i know less because I’m not a rape victim how can you even state that with such certainty its ridiculous you dont know the first thing about me i assume you are just guessing because of my supposed stance on the issue.

131. Ingdigo Jump says

THE CROWN WILL PLAINLY SHOW THAT THE PRISONER WHO NOW STANDS BEFORE YOU WAS CAUGHT RED HANDED OF THE CRIME OF SHOWING FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELINGS! SHOWING FEEEEEEEEEEEEEELINGS OF AN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLMOST HUMAN NATURE!

THIS

WILL

NOT

DO!

132. Ingdigo Jump says

Stop being so hostile maybe i actually wanted to learn not everyone is an expert.

Fuck you

133. says

Everything they told you about the nasty nasty feminists was true. We’re all horrible, evil, illogical. Now leave us the fuck alone.

134. says

Can we simply start ignoring TF now?

If he were wrong about something inconsequential, like Bigfoot, sure. But he’s wrong about a serious social problem that causes billions of people to suffer needlessly worldwide, and his morally decrepit views are widely shared, and him shoring up those views with the imprimatur of science only harms even more people, so no.

135. John Smith says

Wow I didn’t actually believe that before but it seems to be the case on this particular forum at least. No legitimate reply just abuse nice way to try and make the world better.

136. says

John Smith

There have been multiple comments, raising the exact same points you raised, on this thread alone. There are two other threads just like it. Some of us have spent many hours answering those comments.

At this point, you should maybe consider that a: we’re sick to the hind teeth of answering JAQs and that b: you might be able to inform yourself by reading the answers we’ve already given, without us having to repeat them.

Given that I’m supposed to be an example of calmness around these parts—if your questions were genuine, please accept my apologies for my somewhat emotional response earlier. If you’re just repeating the same-old same-old in order to get a rise, please redouble my earlier response, shove it in your pipe, and smoke it.

137. rowanvt says

Once again, John Smith appears to believe that somehow we women have never heard the ideas of ‘not walking alone’, ‘watching your drink’, ‘not wearing provocative clothing’, and ‘not acting like easy prey’.

John, did a parent ever sit you down and have a frank talk about your chances of being raped, and ways to minimize it? Probably not. But I would bet most women had this moment with their mother/grandmother/aunt.

Also, those ‘risk factors’ I’m supposed to avoid? If I don’t follow them to the T, I will get to be told that only if I’d done a bit better, I wouldn’t have been raped. That is, point blank, telling me it’s my fault if I get raped.

So tell me. If I wear a short skirt, and a rapist notices and thinks it means I want to have sex, how is that MY fault or the fault of my clothing? Is my skirt traipsing off without my awareness and whispering in the ears of all the men, encouraging them to force themselves upon me? Is it, in fact, grabbing their penises and attempting to shove it in an orifice, against the will of the owner of the penis? Is, or is not, my skirt making a man rape me?

Or… or is that a rapist will come up with any possible excuse, because the don’t want to think of themselves as a rapist?

Say I present body language that says “Fuck off and leave me alone”… do you think that actually works for a woman? Are you truly that ignorant of how society treats us? I’ve tried that. I’ve had body language that is practically screaming “You don’t want to mess with me tonight”… and men still come and talk to me. They view it as a challenge. When I don’t simper, when I don’t ‘act like a victim’, they get angry, they call me a bitch, they call me a cunt, they tell me I need to get some penis to make me lighten up.

So, either I act like a ‘victim’ and make men want to rape me (how exactly, again, did I *make* them do it? Did my body language hold a gun to their head?), or I act like not-a-victim… and make men want to rape me.

138. Ingdigo Jump says

Smith let me explain.

You are not so fucking important that it’s worth the aggravation of pulling your sorry ass out of the shit pit you proudly wallow in and into enlightenment.

No one needs you. No one wants you. No one needs you as an ally. No one needs you as a friend. No one needs your “insight” no one needs you’re tired retreated psuedolectual logic. No one wants another bad Leonard Nemoy impersonator. You are not unique. You are base. You are irrelevant.

And if that bugs you, then go complain to Thunderf00t because he told us that it doesn’t help to teach people. That you can’t get through to them.

The second you stop posting everyone will forget about you because you’re identical to 500000 other faceless stick up the ass holier than though faux stoic wondermensche.

139. rowanvt says

O_o my comment supposedly posted, but I don’t see it?

140. Anathema says

@ John Smith, #130:

. Stop being so hostile maybe i actually wanted to learn not everyone is an expert.

Yeah, we kind of realized that you aren’t an expert. Your a beginner who is demanding that people who have some degree of expertise to drop what they are doing and explain the basics of the discussion to you.

If a bunch of biologists were discussing the fine points of some aspect of evolutionary theory, would it be fair for a creationist to butt into their conversation and demand that they explain to him why there are still monkeys? If you think that it would be rude for a creationist to do that, then you should realize why the people here aren’t taking very kindly to your demands. Erin already explained this in comment # 125.

If you are actually interested in learning, then I suggest that you actually take the time to read what people are saying. Erin suggested that you go visit a “Feminism 101” site and look up the answers to your question yourself. Daz, in comment # 119, suggested that you actually read one of the threads on this website dealing with the subject. If you really want to learn, I suggest that you follow their advice.

141. says

It’s not just Pharyngula. It’s feminists everywhere. Please, tell your friends. I’m tired of having to fend off your destructive, delusional attempts at “ally”-ship anyway. If you can’t be bothered to do even the tiny amount of work that would have allowed you to realize what a gigantic douche you’ve been sounding like, John Smith, then to be honest, you’re neither intelligent nor diligent enough to be worth my time. You’re so incompetent that you’d be worth more as an outright enemy than as a well-meaning but bumbling “ally.”

142. Koshka says

John Smith #135

Wow I didn’t actually believe that before but it seems to be the case on this particular forum at least. No legitimate reply just abuse nice way to try and make the world better.

143. Ingdigo Jump says

Maybe the root of the problem is that Smith doesn’t know what “formulaic” means

144. says

This “your comment has emotion in it therefore it can be ignored” argument is awfully similar to the tired argument made about post containing mean words and swearing. You do not have to read posts that you do not like, but you do not get to pretend that they do not answer your questions.

John Smith,
As other have said above, your questions have been answered before, in this thread and many others. So far you have made no specific arguments, simply ignoring everything. Can you not at least make specific arguments based on what has been said, maybe quote a few of the arguments you feel are incorrect? Surely you do not have such hubris to think you are the first person to come here and ask to be spoon fed information? You do understand how tiring this is and how annoying it is? Do some reading and come back when you can show you have at least absorbed what has already been said.

145. Ingdigo Jump says

You know Thunderf00t mentioned body language? well there’s also language language. And there are tropes, tells, patterns and red flags that let people know whether someone is worth their time or not.

If women are supposed to act like wasps, you are acting like a stink bug. An annoying, irritating, pestering stink bug that crawled in where it’s not wanted. And the best way to deal with stink bugs is to dispatch them swiftly, deal with the initial odor rather than let them stick around stinking up the joint

146. rowanvt says

I do have to wonder what TF would think of the fact that I have a sketchbook that I used to whack a dozen yellow jackets out of the air, and then completely dispatch? And I wasn’t stung a single time.

147. rowanvt says

Also, do any of the mods know why my long comment to John got eaten?

148. says

I almost made a substantive reply to John Smith, but then I realized that would only encourage him to keep posting his bullshit rather than going back and reading, as suggested.

149. =8)-DX says

As always, this has exploded, don’t have time to catch up yet. But theoretically one could point out:

1) If all of TF’s advice worked and was taken, apart from displacement it would be possible that there would be lower opportunity for rapists.

2) “Educate men not to rape” campaigns concentrate on reducing opportunity for rape through education. People educated about rape wont be as willing to excuse rapists, and will work actively to create safer environments, won’t participate in activities that they understand are deeply harmful.

Since women (as 50% of the population) don’t create all the social spaces they inhabit, and much of the social space where rape occurs, is excused, ignored, etc. is co-created by men – it is *crucial* that men participate.

So *at best*, TF’s advice is only dealing with the problem marginally, pretending that only women are raped or are the only ones who can influence the opportunities for rape to occur.

150. Ingdigo Jump says

Also, do any of the mods know why my long comment to John got eaten?

Perhaps it means there is a loving god

151. brianpansky says

@135
John Smith

Wow I didn’t actually believe that before but it seems to be the case on this particular forum at least. No legitimate reply just abuse nice way to try and make the world better.

it was suggested to you to go back and read through places that already dealt with things you said. did you do that yet?

152. rowanvt says

Perhaps it means there is a loving god

BAHAHAHAHAHA! That helps lighten my mood after being voluntold today that I’m being transferred to another veterinary clinic and that tomorrow is my last day at a location I love. :/

153. Ingdigo Jump says

Besides the real problem with rape isn’t that people perform the acts, it’s that as a society there’s feet dragging or active obstruction of addressing the problem. You can compare it to say a white guy shooting an unarmed black teenager and then only being tried because of public out cry. Crime is committed that everyone agrees is bad (murder) but authorities don’t want to actually enforce it, and big populations of the public actively support the murderer. Would Thundy really suggest the real lesson we take away from that is to not wear hoodies?

154. rowanvt says

Indigo, the answer to that is yes. Thundy would totally suggest that black kids shouldn’t wear hoodies if they don’t want to be shot.

155. Ingdigo Jump says

Also I’m pretty sure I said this but…

If I leave my wallet out on the table and walk away and it gets stolen, do I deserve to be robbed?
If someone ignores danger and gets raped did they deserve to be raped?

Because what Thundy seems to be saying is “Stupid people deserve to be abused”

FFS no. Someone lowering their defenses or having a lapse of judgement where they make themselves vulnerable are not asking for it. They do not deserve to be abused or violated. The person who did so isn’t less culpable because it was a crime of opportunity, they are fucking SCUM for jumping on the first chance to abuse someone.

156. rowanvt says

Dear Tpyos, I hope you enjoyed the taste of the g that I see is missing from my previous post. May it be a worthy offering unto your divine benevolence.

157. CCC (Crystal Clear Consent)

* First of all: Understand that if you go forward with initiating sexual activity not knowing if consent exists, you may or may not be raping someone, but you have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you are willing to rape someone. Black areas make you a rapist, grey areas make you willing to rape.

* Making absolutely sure that consent is obtained and mutually agreed on. This does not include trying for consent when a person is not in condition to grant consent.

* No doubts as to whether consent was obtained.

* No guesses as to whether consent was obtained.

* No assumptions as to whether consent was obtained.

* No doubt as to whether any partner was capable of giving consent at the time.

Crystal Clear Consent includes Fully Informed Consent. Consent granted under deception is not CCC, it is manufactured consent.

* If you use deception to gain sex–impersonating another person, lying about contraceptive use, failing to disclose STDs–you are denying your partner the right to fully informed consent.

* If you are not sure whether or not you have an STD, disclose this uncertainty. If consent is granted, take responsibility and use protection. Just because you didn’t know for sure is not a defense.

* If you whine and wheedle about using protection a/o contraception, you are not in CCC territory. You are willing to rape.

* Lying about or withholding information that, if known, would’ve resulted in dissent is rape.

* If you consent to X activity under Y conditions and the other party changes those conditions to Z, then you have not consented to what is happening.

Crystal Clear Consent Practices:

* Understanding that consent may be withdrawn, by any involved party, at any time. Initial consent does not mean you get to carry on if consent has been withdrawn. In other words, people are allowed to change their mind at any point.

* If you have not had sex with a given person before, mutually understood language with confirmation is the best way to attain Crystal Clear Consent. Relying on body language or assuming consent without clarification is nearly always insufficient with a new partner. As you get to know your partner(s) better, you will get better at reading nonverbal / nonlingual cues, but clear communication is still absolutely necessary. It is important to remember that rape can still be committed within the confines of a relationship, at any stage. Consent that is not communicated is not CCC.

* If your partner is communicating something, do not assume that it has nothing to do with consent.

* If you initiate or offer and are declined in the context of a specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtations setting, do not initiate or offer again until one of the following four occur:

1. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering and been declined by you.

2. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering, was accepted by you, but after the activity lapsed you wish to restart.

3. it is an entirely new romantic, sexual, or flirtatious setting.

4. An amount of time has passed that is inverse to the number of times they have accepted your offer before. While it may be acceptable when dating to offer again in a week or in a closer relationship to initiate again after, say, one day [or whatever is the negotiated norm in said relationship] it’s not acceptable to ask someone again if you’ve just met them.

* If you initiate or offer and are declined in a context that is not specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtatious, do not initiate or offer again. Seriously.

* If you’re beginning a new relationship or going for a casual hookup, enthusiasm is key! Your new partner should be enthusiastically and happily involved with you. If no enthusiasm is present, it’s best to go for more communication and put off sex for a while.

* A person who wants consensual sex doesn’t want to commit or experience rape, and a person who rapes does. Whether a given rapist wants their victim(s) drugged, unconscious, frightened, intimidated, trapped, manipulated or tricked, or just pestered until they give in, the rapist wants the end result to be that a rape happens. That includes being forced to penetrate someone else.

* Contrary to what is often thought, consent is not difficult. If you still aren’t clear at this point, read this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2011/09/20/consent-is-hard/ and this: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/06/if-consent-was-really-that-hard-whiny-dudes-would-fail-at-every-aspect-of-life/

* Don’t want to listen to us? How about MIT:

Effective Consent is:

– informed;

– freely and actively given;

– mutually understandable words or actions;

– which indicate a willingness to participate in
– mutually agreed upon sexual activity.

158. Ingdigo Jump says

Actually, I think it’s very likely that Thundy believes that stupid people DO deserve abuse.

Think about his shtick. Think about what he did when someone who thought they could trust him granted him a privilege and platform.

Hell even when he had an enemy in a position of weakness having caught them breaking the law what did he do? He didn’t submit to rule of law and let it be enforced, he held it over that person’s head and demanded a sign of submission and groveling.

Strong>>>Weak
Winner>>>Loser
Abuser>>>Abused

159. John Smith says

With the amount of times you have told me that my arguments have already been refuted and then pointless abuse you could have just given me a specific link which would require 1 line. Admittedly i tried looking around but i didn’t find much (not to say there wasnt anything maybe i just used bad keywords). Apologies for attempting to get an answer on the wrong forum.

[Did you see the comments by Caine at #155, #156, #159, #160, #161, and #162? You have been given extensive links to the subject at hand, and you can’t find them? Get off the internet until you figure out how to use it. –pzm]

160. rowanvt says

Hey John, if you scroll up you’ll see tons of links to keep you occupied, just as you desired.

161. Ingdigo Jump says

@Smith

Go away

162. brianpansky says

Admittedly i tried looking around but i didn’t find much (not to say there wasnt anything maybe i just used bad keywords)….Apologies for attempting to get an answer on the wrong forum.

which is it…the wrong forum? or the wrong keywords? get your accusatory apology straight.

163. kittehserf says

Hey, John Smith, here’s a question for you.

Do you not have any feelings about rape? Do you feel no emotion at the thought of the trauma inflicted on people?

If not, why not?

Because you’re saying that people, including people who have been raped, aren’t allowed to express emotion about it. You’re ignoring that emotion doesn’t cancel out rational though or awareness of facts (something you’re sorely lacking).

What the hell sort of human being DOESN’T feel anger, rage, horror, at rape and how prevalent it is, and how so many people give comfort and cover to rapists, not to their vicims? Even if someone cannot feel empathy, surely they can see that the infliction of violent crime upon another person is wrong.

What sort of human being are you?

164. brianpansky says

Apologies for attempting to get an answer on the wrong forum.

also, you entered a forum that has people who have been raped. your lack of homework effort makes you a BAD VISITOR, not us a “bad forum”.

165. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

abewoelk #77

To answer your question, we live in a dangerous world, and nothing — zip, squat, nada, de rien — is going to be a 100% guarantee that you (or for that matter me) won’t be raped tonight. So the argument that some women who take precautions end up getting raped anyway is mostly beside the point. What you can do is reduce the odds that you’ll be raped…

So come on people, stop being children, or elderly, or small, or injured, or having a spouse, or being involved with someone, or having a father or even worse, a step-father, or sleeping at home in your own bed, or giving a party, or …
Well, I suppose, you should just forget about being a human being in society, because after all, that raises those nasty odds, too.
/bitter, bitter snark

166. petrander says

This “anti-feminism” looks like it’s definitely infected the internet. Look what spoiled my enjoyment of memebase today:

167. says

With the amount of times you have told me that my arguments have already been refuted and then pointless abuse you could have just given me a specific link which would require 1 line. Admittedly i tried looking around but i didn’t find much (not to say there wasnt anything maybe i just used bad keywords). Apologies for attempting to get an answer on the wrong forum.

Translation: “I am stoooooopid! Please get all your spoons and spoon-feed meeeeeeeeeeeee!”

No.

168. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

Ten rape prevention tips:

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

Thought it was time for these again.

169. Koshka says

John Smith #163,

With the amount of times you have told me that my arguments have already been refuted and then pointless abuse you could have just given me a specific link which would require 1 line.

It really isn’t all about you.
Lurkers will read the comments and most will decide not to start commenting looking ignorant. They will make an effort to have some background information.
It is not too late for you to make an honest effort.

170. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

John Smith #135

Wow I didn’t actually believe that before but it seems to be the case on this particular forum at least. No legitimate reply just abuse nice way to try and make the world better.

Because blundering in and asking to have the entire thing explained to you as if it has not been explained some hundreds of times before with links, is reasonable and logical.
Got it. Thanks!

171. Petrander @ 171:

This “anti-feminism” looks like it’s definitely infected the internet. Look what spoiled my enjoyment of memebase today:

Huh. Being an actual hippie (yeah, I’m that old), that fancy ring part doesn’t, erm, ring true.* (Sorry, sorry!). So, not only stupid and sexist, but wrong all the way around.

Hippies eschewed tradition and material things, most hippies I knew back in the day didn’t bother with a fancy ring of any sort, if they bothered to marry. I’ve been married 34 years and have never had an engagement or wedding ring.

/derail

172. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

Abewoelk @107:
I am coming into this late, but I am hoping that by threads end you will have provided evidence to support your opinions. Ambiguous and/or ill defined terms like “common sense” are useless.

Also, WRT rape apologetics:

The simple answer is that a rape apology is any argument that boils down to the myth that rapists can be provoked into raping by what the victim does or does not do.

Such apologies feed off the old myth that rapists have no control over the sexual temptation they experience in response to the victim, therefore the victim could have avoided awakening the irresistible rape temptation by behaving differently. It’s classic victim-blaming.

Most people who make such arguments are not consciously intending to defend rapists. They are simply repeating arguments they have heard before and haven’t fully examined.

You say you are against rape.
You also say that women should take precautions to reduce their odds of being raped.
You may not be consciously trying to make apologies for rape.
You may think the “advice” you have is reasonable.
In the end, however, you are engaging in Apologies for Rape.

The “precautions” that women should take to reduce their risk of rape do not work bc rapists rape, no matter what their victim is wearing, the age of the victim, the amount of alcohol in the victims system, where the victim is located, who the victim is in the company of, what time of day it is and more. The “precautions” you speak of are vaguely defined. More important, they are useless.

Women who who drink nothing, or a little or large amounts of alcohol get raped.
What precautions could a woman take WRT the consumption of alcohol to reduce her risk of rape?

Women who wear full body attire, casual Friday attire, bikinis, or nothing at all get raped. What precautions WRT clothing can a woman take to reduce her risk of being raped?

Women are raped at home, at school, at work, at church, at community centers, at supermarkets and more. What precautions can a woman take WRT her location that can reduce her risk of rape?

Once more, with feeling:
the ONLY common thread in all cases of rape–every single one–is the presence of a rapist.
Rapists make the decision to rape. They are human beings, not forces of nature
Placing any responsibility for rape avoidance on women is Victim Blaming Rape Apologia bc women have no control over rapists. Only rapists control themselves. Only rapists make the decision to rape someone. Please stop trying to place the onus for rape prevention on women. Not only does that not work, it perpetuates Rape Culture myths.

173. says

@John Smith

With the amount of times you have told me that my arguments have already been refuted and then pointless abuse you could have just given me a specific link which would require 1 line

Here you go. Just start reading from the top.

No, seriously. E.g. you wrote:

As for this whole beef with him saying body language can influence rape i don’t see your problem with this.

Despite the fact that this exact point is addressed in this very thread. It starts as early as comment #10:

Of course I don’t want to be raped. But that doesn’t mean I want other people to be raped instead of me. I don’t want anyone to rape anyone. I want social rape prevention. No factors that I allegedly individually control could do anything to address the social problem of rape, and the very idea that I have that individual control perpetuates that social problem.

There is in fact quite a bit of discussion on this, so if you “don’t see [our] problem”, it can only be because you aren’t looking. So, now that we’ve established that you came in here like a bull in a china shop, maybe you could shut up for five minutes and do your fucking homework.

174. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

Tony, #177, nice one.

175. kittehserf says

Seconding Lyn M, Tony – well said.

176. Here’s the thing that all the rape apologists seem not to grasp.

Let’s say their world was true. Rape was a natural phenomenon, something men (and of course only men, because the idea that women or genderqueer individuals can rape is only something we pretend to care about when we can use it to deflect a real conversation on the subject) are just hard-wired to do and there’s little in the world we can do to stop or deflect it.

Why in hell would the response be “oh well, let us all shrug our shoulders and laugh sitcom style at those wild and crazy men who can’t keep their dicks off people”?!?

If there really was a world where men were all inherently violent criminals who could no more curb their sociopathic victimization of others in service to a bullshit patriarchal game than a mountain lion could live off an all-vegetable diet, then why in fuck would we be allowing these half-formed beasts to walk free in our society.

When we encounter serial killers in our society, our usual response isn’t just to laugh it off and tell people not to be abducted by sickos who enjoy torturing and killing people. We lock those fuckers up. Same with every other crime, right down to meaningless property theft.

And if they were randomly allowed to roam free because the system has so utterly failed to keep them in check, why in fuck shouldn’t every woman pre-emptively act with whatever force necessary to save herself from these violent “untameable” animals? We certainly shouldn’t give these fuckers political or social power or let them be in charge of businesses or other systems.

To abuse his analogy further, we don’t let people keep mountain lions as pets and if someone did try to have one living in suburbia and it got loose and mauled someone, the police would probably gun the poor beast down, not spend the entire time chiding the mauled jogger on what a mistake it was to have such an enticing left flank.

In their pretend world, men should be killed on sight, if they are really such uncontrollable beasts and rape is such an elemental, uncontrollable force.

But we don’t and these fuckers don’t want that world. They just want to be able to get away with the rape culture we have now because they view women as disposable sex objects, no more worthy of consideration of humanity than a toaster and just like a toaster might get a thumping if it fails to produce the toast, so should women if they fail to deliver the sex how and when a man might want it.

They want to get out of the responsibility of being a human being and having to consider other people before they blunder forth and violate and injure and minimize and retraumatize and prevent any means of fixing the problem of the rape culture.

177. @ =8)-DX #148

So *at best*, TF’s advice is only dealing with the problem marginally, pretending that only women are raped or are the only ones who can influence the opportunities for rape to occur.

Disclaimer: I didn’t watch the TF video, or even the entire Rebecca Watson video. As I said before, it was too triggering. So the following may be off-base, at least as relating to what Thunderfoot said.

A problem I see with a lot of “men’s rights activists” (and those who spout BS indistinguishable from your average internet MRA, whether they identify as one or not), is how easily they forget that men are victims of rape, too. Where are the list of things men need to do in order to keep from being raped?

178. kittehserf says

Cerberus @181 – the “why” is that the sociopaths, the natural-born-rapists are the ones running that world, the ones who’ve run a hell of a lot of the societies through its history.

Erin @182 – what’s the bet the advice for men would boil down to “be a REAL MAN”? (Ie. one who can never be weak, never at a disadvantage, never victimised, and who can’t possibly be raped by a woman ‘cos a real man is always up for it. Literally.)

179. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

John Smith @130:

I know Thundercl0d and his minions are allergic to citing evidence for their opinions, or reading entire threads to see if their point has been addressed, but could you just send one person from Thunderd0uche’s Fan Club?. You all have the same poorly thought “arguments” combined with your aversion to evidence and your Rape Apologetics. One of you is more than sufficient to repeat the same Victim Blaming BS refuted long ago.

@135:
You think this is abuse?
You should see what happens when women speak up about sexual harassment…or worse…I almost dare not mention this, but when the ancient incantation “guys, don’t do that” is spoken by a woman, all hell breaks loose. Those are examples of true abuse. Now scoot back to Thunderd0lt* and whine about being abused by those Evil Feminazi Groupthink Hivemind Social Justice Warriors.

*btw, creating variations on your boss’ nym is fun for me. I am sure some of you staunch supporters of rape culture find it immature, which just hurts me like this much >.<

180. Erin:

A problem I see with a lot of “men’s rights activists” (and those who spout BS indistinguishable from your average internet MRA, whether they identify as one or not), is how easily they forget that men are victims of rape, too. Where are the list of things men need to do in order to keep from being raped?

What we have seen here, repeatedly, from MRAs specifically, is that rape is much more a man’s issue, due to prison rape, and that feminists do not care about men being raped in prison, and besides, most cases of women being raped are false accusations against the poor men. That’s one line.

With your standard clueless dude or earnest rape apologist, the fact that men get raped simply doesn’t factor in. Neither does the fact that infants are raped, elderly people are raped, beautiful people are raped, plain people are raped, ugly people are raped, skinny people are raped, fat people are raped, children are raped, both girls and boys, and on it goes. Every descriptor you can think of, yeah. As Cerberus noted, it also doesn’t factor in that a rapist is not always male.

If that awareness was present, they would drop the ever ubiquitous “things women should do”, as that has not helped, ever. What does help is targeting potential rapists, a la the Don’t Be That Guy Campaign. It would be right handy if those who would rape were monolith, then they’d be easy to avoid, eh? Unfortunately, no monolith.

181. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

Erin (formerly–formally?– known as EEB) #182

[Trigger warning as this level of sarcasm can be painful to read if you are one of the people who is being discarded by the “sense” the snark inducers are implicitly stating.]

Quite. But it appears that we don’t talk about that. It appears that some people think there is something wrong with a man who rapes a man. That’s not natural! And men who are raped, well, that’s just icky. We don’t have to think about that because it doesn’t really happen. Or something.

Women can “improve the odds” against being raped. But guys getting raped … well, let’s not talk about that because it could imply there is something totes wrong with the “improve the odds” concept or with being a rapist or well, you know, something!

182. Louis says

Oh my lack of god! Is rape controversial and difficult to understand again? Why I thought this issue was made clear yesterday. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. And the day before. Ad nauseam.

It’s almost like there is a) a near endless supply of clueless people, and b) a vociferous group of self interested denialists determined not to understand.

That couldn’t be the case….could it?

Louis

183. =8)-DX says

@Louis #187

It’s almost like there is a) a near endless supply of clueless people, and b) a vociferous group of self interested denialists determined not to understand.

The problem (as always) is big pompous well-known Atheist Dudebro doesn’t get it.

It’s kind of another good argument against having superhero atheist role models. Or why they should preferably be black women.

184. kesara says

Seems to me as if there is a tiny kernel of truth in thunderf00t´s wasp and mountain lion analogies, in that women who fight back forcefully are more likely to avoid completed rape ( http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/4925HomeComputer/Rape%20myths/10-Year%20Update.pdf ) – but if that´s the point he was trying to make, his analogies were unnecessarily confusing at best.
The point that such strategies at best deflect the rapists attention to other victims who won´t fight back forcefully or are unable to do so is of course ignored completely by him (not to mention the ridiculously unfair burden that this places on women and only on women).
But what annoys me most about thunderf00t´s current tantrum is, that he pretends that campaigns to educate boys and men about consent are a stupid idea because we “already teach our kids that” and rapists gonna rape anyway. That there is empirical evidence demonstrating that a lot of people actually are confused about consent and that such campaigns work is completely ignored by him although he has been made aware of this many times (and this was the central point of his video – that “teaching men not to rape” is a “stupid idea” because “we already do that”…).
All he does is insist that he´s being strawmanned (is there anyone on this planet who uses the word “strawman” more often than Dr. Mason?) and coming up with more bad analogies while ignoring all research that contradicts him – interesting behaviour for a guy whose motto is “Science FTW!”.

185. Bicarbonate says

Louis @187

and the day before. And the day before. And the day before… a near endless supply… but that couldn’t be the case, could it?

Two, two, the lily white boys,
dress them all in gree-een-o
For one is one and all alone
and evermore shall be it so.

186. playonwords says

To everybody, sorry to repeat the schooling JS has been ignoring.

@ John Smith. First, Paragraphs are your friend

Why the constant appeal to emotion in these arguments, from what i can tell Thunderf00t is just making logical arguments of which i have not seen a legitimate response to.

You despise fake equations? Do you have any idea what an equation for predicting human behavior would look like because i sure as hell don’t but i can confidently say that it would be extremely^million times complex (hows that for a fake equation).

The point is that TF is trained in scientific methodology so he does know not to use such nonsense.

Its obvious from the context that the point he was trying to make was that if you take steps to prevent rape overall it will lower the chance of being raped perhaps not by much perhaps by a lot maybe not at all depending on the circumstance.

But as numerous posts in this thread alone point out what Thunderguts is suggesting does not reduce the chance of being raped.

I’m not going to speculate.

But you are speculating and by this statement implying malice.

THIS SEEMS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS and to suggest he is saying simply times some probabilities together and you will get your chance to be raped number is ridiculous.

But that is exactly what he is saying.

As for this whole beef with him saying body language can influence rape i don’t see your problem with this.

Then you have not been paying attention. The whole problem is that body language has very little to do with rape. Infants get raped, seniors get raped, women in burkas get raped, men get raped, people in houses get raped. Putting any element down to body language provides the rapist with an excuse for what he (or, rarely, she) has done.

Some rapists say that a factor while choosing their victim is a certain type of body language so thunderf00t says if you don’t display said body language but a body language which some rapists say deters them then you will reduce your chance of being raped at no point does he say its your fault for not doing it.

But what body language?Some rapists will react to apparent submissiveness as permission while some will react to assertiveness as a challenge. Some will see a woman who secludes herself as an opportunity while some will see a woman in public as an invitation.

From what i have read it seems many of you have not actually watched the video …

Wrong, a lot have and others have heard and read his self-serving twaddle elsewhere.

… and those that have are not looking at it logically but emotionally.

Again wrong, there is plenty of logic. In any event people who have been raped, people vulnerable to rape and those who know those who have been raped or are vulnerable to rape tend to react emotionally. The last group have a quality known as empathy – something you seem to lack.

Also please try and read this reply logically I am simply addressing discrepancies in the arguments this in no way is influenced by my point of view.

You are not Spock and it is patently obvious that everything you have written is your point of view and is not logical.

If there is something logically wrong with what i have said please tell me and we will all be the better for it as I know my logic is not perfect.

See above

187. Louis says

Oh and by the way, Thunderf00t is right.

Let that sink in.

I’ll explain.

If his equation is “Probability of rape = (AxBxCxD) (ExFxGxH)” where the first parentheses enclose the victim’s actions that are causative of rape and the second enclose the rapist’s action that are causative of rape, then yes, he is completely, perfectly, logically correct that examining the first set of parentheses’ factors is independent in a purely logical form from examining the second parentheses’ set of factors.

Wonderful.

There are just two tiny problems with this. It amazes me such a bright fellow overlooked them:

1) The first set of parentheses contains hypothetical factors disproven by readily available data. I.e. there are no known factors on behalf of the victim’s behaviour that are demonstrated to be even correlated with probability of rape. More than that, there are a number of often claimed factors that can be demonstrated to have neither a causal nor correlatory link with the probability of rape. All of this is easily found in readily available statistics on rape. You’d think a physical scientist like him (and hey, like me!) would be sufficiently comfortable with the basic statistics that he could find this data and examine it to show this.

2) Unfortunately, we do not live in a social environment where pure logic is the only governing factor, nor should it be (perhaps sadly, perhaps not). Focussing one’s efforts on discussing the factors contained in the first set of parentheses is not a neutral act in reality. Oh yes, reality, that thing we scientists, especially we physical scientists, are concerned with. This is not an argument from consequences, the truth of Thunderf00t’s equation does not depend on this, it’s already refuted by the facts in point 1), it’s a direct refutation of the claim that the kind of “analysis” (I don’t really want to dignify it that much) of Thunderf00t’s is benign, harmless or even productive. It’s none of these. In focussing on already refuted, and mostly fictional constructs of his own imagination, Thunder00t is distracting from focussing on the ACTUAL contributory, correlated, causative factors. That distraction is not harmless it is harmful. If this is too complicated for some to understand try this analogy, it’s a better one than any of Thunderf00t’s:

You have a viral infection, minor, but irritating. Your doctor erroneously but generously prescribes antibiotics partly as some kind of placebo, partly out of some misguided idea of prophylaxis. After all, you have come and demanded treatment. What harm can it do? The antibiotics are ineffective for the viral infection, but they do kill off a number of bacteria. Unfortunately they do this imperfectly, and thus some of the bacteria that are resistant to the antibiotic survive, reproduce and thus, imperceptibly, the amount of drug resistant bacteria in the world goes up.

Imagine hundreds, thousands, millions of this kind of doctor, prescribing antibiotics ineffectively and generously for generations of people with viral infections. The global number of drug resistant bacteria is now at a problem level, almost all our antibiotics have some kind of resistant population. And people die because of this. All from the best intentions, all from generosity and a genuine desire to see people safer. All from unintended consequences.

Probability of deaths due to antibiotic resistance = (AxBxCxD) (ExFxGxH)

(AxBxCxD) = things that demonstrably do not correlate with probability of deaths due to antibiotic resistance.

(ExFxGxH) = things that demonstrably do correlate (causatively and non causatively) with probability of deaths due to antibiotic resistance.

Focussing on “solving” (AxBxCxD) is 1) counterfactual and 2) a contributory factor in the set of factors (ExFxGxH).

That is why Thunderf00t’s rhetoric and “analysis” is not merely factually wrong but actively harmful.

I wonder, was that sufficiently free of emotion? Was that sufficiently logical?

Louis

188. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

Kesara @189:
Ok, I can grant that tiny kernel…up until the point that I remember that not all women are capable of fighting back (This is not a slam against you, btw). 10 year old girls, 75 year old women,or women with physical disabilities may find it extremely difficult/problematic trying to fight back.

189. zenlike says

Tony, I think Kesara made that point in the second paragraph (at least, that’s how I read it).

190. vaiyt says

in that women who fight back forcefully are more likely to avoid completed rape

That’s trivially true, if only because you can’t succeed in resisting rape if you don’t try. The question is: is it significant?

191. says

abewoelk, #107
(Disclaimer, I haven’t read below #107)

And we’re talking about playing the odds here.

I don’t quite get it… it seems to me that if you’ve been abused or attacked, sexually or not, it can never be your fault and it never was your role to prevent it.

Nothing similar to rape but I was once robbed at knife point in a big city and all my belongings were taken from me.
I was a teenager coming out of the country to see friends in this city with my backpack and all and sure, I probably could have anticipated what was coming because the guys (much older) talked with me in the bus, then got down at the same stop as me and continued to talk to me while I went towards my friend’s home… there’s a lot of red flags there but I guess I was naive and didn’t saw it coming until I saw the huge (huge !!) knife on my stomach.
And yet, I don’t consider that it is my fault: I was a human being going my way and someone attacked me. That’s *their* fault, full stop.

192. zmidponk says

Reading what Thunderf00t has said, I think he thinks he’s right because he’s made the very basic error of thinking rape is about sex, and it’s therefore about the rapist being unable or unwilling to control himself, and forcibly having sex with a person they find sexually attractive. From what I understand, rape features sex, but it’s not about sex, it’s about power. That being the case, taking any of his ‘precautions’ would, at best, simply be utterly ineffective, and, at worst, actually feed into the rapist’s power fantasies, as that could make it seem, to him, that he has the power to change what you do and how you do it by simply existing.

193. says

And just because I just read this
SallyStrange, #114

DO NOT COMPARE RAPE TO PROPERTY THEFT EVER FUCKING AGAIN

I hope my comment above (196) won’t be understood as me comparing the 2… if so, I apologize without reserve.

194. This sort of unnecessary nonsense from TF makes me angry.

Can Thunderf00t point to evidence of how we teach our young not to rape? I appear to have missed that part of my schooling–maybe it was in a lesson I did not attend–though admittedly the ’70s sex ed. I received may not have been enlightened as these times.

That said, I seem to have inferred the message from somewhere, but it was not an explicit message. I don’t understand the objection to making an open message to men that they should not rape, and that they should not explicitly (or implicitly by inaction) support rape culture. Note that the implicit part is as important as the explicit, because it is through the loopholes of bro behaviour and cultures that predators are able to slip and even thrive.

Why does TF object to this? Is it because it would mean HE would have to do something? Rather than place the onus on someone who is neither him nor a bro? Would it put him in an uncomfortable position vis-a-vis his predatory chums?

195. @zmidponk, 197

That being the case, taking any of his ‘precautions’ would, at best, simply be utterly ineffective, and, at worst, actually feed into the rapist’s power fantasies, as that could make it seem, to him, that he has the power to change what you do and how you do it by simply existing.

An interesting point. I agree that harassment and rape are expressions of power. TF’s contributions to this discussion is a controlling message that adds to that power. Phil may not be a rapist, but he’s certainly enabling predators when he broadcasts a message that demands women behave in a male-approved manner.

It’s awful what he’s doing, really. How does he live with himself?

196. says

@Tomfrog 198

Your comparison did not ding my warning bells about being compared to a piece of property because you were talking about the experience of reading, or not reading, the social cues of someone who’s about to take advantage of you, rather than the practice of locking one’s car or house being comparable to avoiding rape by basically locking one’s own self up inside.

I really appreciate the consideration, though.

197. says

@Kesara

in that women who fight back forcefully are more likely to avoid completed rape

And even if we grant that, and assume someone capable of fighting back, a woman fighting her rapist also signficantly increases his level of violence, and the woman’s chance of being murdered. Not to mention that the trauma is often in the initial assault, so even women who manage to fight their rapists off successfully are often traumatized by the very attempt. So fighting back may not even decrease the overall level of harm done to the victim, to the point that some rape crisis center even advice *not* to fight back because it’ll escalate the violence.

The number of women who escaped their rapists by fighting may be outweighed by the number of women who got murdered by their rapists for trying to fight back, but this is, of course, extremely hard to measure. Which, again, shows us the absolute folly of trying to put rape prevention into equations.

198. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

Louis #192

Very unemotional.
I’m sure it will immediately cause complete agreement in all the Tfoot supporters, who will relay the analogy to him, resulting in his full and sincere apology to the entire Internet for any mis-understanding.
And I anticipate receiving the Nobel this year, in physics.*

*Because I’m getting older and if they don’t give it to me soon, I will not be here to receive it. The committee has to know this.

199. says

It’s possible to draw an analogy between airport security, and rape “prevention” tips. Of course, if the former were anything like the latter, the 9/11 victims would be victim blamed for boarding a vehicle with strangers, and insufficiently telegraphing their desire not to be crashed into buildings.

200. says

@ SallyStrange 201

Your comparison did not ding my warning bells

Good. From what I’ve read, I’m inclined to trust those bells. :)

201. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

Ingdigo @162:

Strong>>>Weak
Winner>>>Loser
Abuser>>>Abused

And it is so fucking easy to believe and accept and live. And, vice my scout leader, I would add:

Man>>>Girl

Exactly as he would have phrased it.

Sorry.

202. The complete idiocy of this whole argument of TFoot’s is that it dismisses the real problem.

It’s not so much “teach them not to rape” as it is “teach them what rape actually is.”

203. says

I don’t know why everyone is piling on abewoelk. Xe’s absolutely correct: that “common sense” rape-prevention advice is just like the TSA requirements to remove your shoes and belts and so forth as you pass through airport security.

Like these rape-prevention tactics, TSA requirements are largely borne out of extrapolating general rules from an after-the-fact examination of anecdotal evidence–that natural “if only I had done X, this would have been prevented” hindsight which naturally leads to “from now on, I’ll do X, so it won’t happen again.”

Like these rape-prevention tactics, TSA requirements are based on a misapprehension of the probabilities. Just as rape-prevention tactics are mostly targeted at avoiding the least common kind of rape, that by strangers, TSA profiles brown-skinned people in turbans and other ‘Muslim-looking’ clothing, a profile which would not catch most of the hijackers in recent American history.

Like these rape-prevention tactics, TSA guidelines make a superficial amount of sense and seem like common-sense rules, until they come into contact with reality or a bit of applied thought. Sure, it makes sense to take off our shoes, because it would have stopped the shoe bomber. Except the shoe bomber was stopped before the shoe rules went into effect, and now it just means that terrorists will hide their bombs in something other than a shoe.

Like the rape-prevention tactics, the best possible outcome of the TSA guidelines is just that whatever subset of terrorists actually uses those tactics will either get smarter and change their tactics, or will change how they’re choosing targets. It doesn’t prevent, so much as displace, the problem.

Like the rape-prevention tactics, expert analysis, statistics, and examples from other nations with different rules suggest that TSA regulations do almost nothing to prevent terrorism. They are, as has been said in similar threads, security theater, a set of complex and obtrusive rituals that have little practical purpose but provide the illusion of control over largely uncontrollable factors. They act as a placebo, and like a placebo, the more invasive it is, the more effective we think it must be, because why would we subject ourselves to such invasiveness for no effect?

Which ultimately boils them both down to magical thinking, rituals performed not for any direct practical purpose but because we’ve been convinced that, somehow, performing these rituals keeps the bad things at bay. And atheists are totes down with magical rituals, right?

Oh, one more similarity: like rape, the real solution to the problem of terrorism is changing the toxic culture of imperialism and racism and indiscriminate violence against innocents that we enact and support, which gives entire nations cause to hate us enough to enact vengeance. Changing that culture wouldn’t stop all terrorism, but it would cut the incidence down significantly, and would eliminate the cultural factors that enable and support terrorism. Unfortunately, cultural changes are hard, and are resisted and opposed by those people who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, or denying that a problem exists.

Or the people who blithely think that a complex problem can be solved by a few magical rituals.

204. @Tom Foss:

Excellent takedown

205. zmidponk says

@ Tom Foss

It’s not quite like the TSA security theater folk go through when boarding a plane, because at least they have some sort of logical, but stupid, reasons behind them. Abewoelk’s rape prevention advice isn’t even logical. It’s actually something like three quarters of all sexual assaults are carried out by someone known to the victim, so, statistically, as an example, a woman is actually more likely to get raped by getting into a car with a man she knows than a strange man, contrary to what Abewoelk advises.

206. sarah00 says

I think the people using the airport security analogy have missed the point. It was only reading through these comments that I realised airport security is actually Schrodinger’s rapist.

It’s impossible to determine who’s the terrorist/rapist at first look so airport security (when it works and isn’t just a show) removes the indeterminacy by lifting the box lid and seeing who is and who isn’t a terrorist. While the goal is about protecting people, it does this through finding the terrorists and stopping them from boarding.

If the airport analogy was valid then the rape prevention tips espoused by Thunderf00t and his compatriot should be focused on finding rapists and stopping them from committing their crimes. That they aren’t suggests that they aren’t really interested in preventing rapes but are more focused on limiting women and blaming victims. If we took their tips and applied them to terrorism, we would blame the victims for having not done more to protect themselves from being caught up in a terrorist attack. We don’t because that’s insane (and callous).

207. sarah00 says

I posted before I saw the post from @ Tom Foss.

I still stand by my post, but I’m add the caveat that I’m approaching security from the idealistic world whereas Tom Foss is clearly approaching from the more realistic world.

208. lynxreign says

With a simplistic, childish formula like this

Probability of rape = AxBxCxDxExFxGxH

All you have to do is ensure any single one of those variables is 0 and the probability of rape is 0. So what’s the magic bullet? There’s apparently one thing we can do to potential rapists that will ensure all rape stops forever. Or some magic charm women can use to make sure rape never happens again. If all women reduce variable C to 0 then no matter what rapists do or thing, rape will never happen again.
Thunderf00t is proving to be incredible ignorant in many areas at once. He’s a renaissance man of stupidity. Probably a Republican.

209. says

Lynxreign, #214:

Isn’t it obvious what the magic perfect solution is? All women must wear a hardhat over their crotch. Rape solved.

210. Louis says

Surely they have to wear a wasp or a mountain lion, PZ. Or have I mixed this up somewhere along the line?

Either way, crotch worn wasps, hard hats or mountain lions, I’m seeing chafing in people’s futures.

Louis

211. says

@66

Has TF read any of the research on rape, or is he just pulling hypotheses out of thin air?

oh come on now, theres not really anything to *know* about feminism (or criminal justice, apparently). Its part of the humanities, and we all know how silly and stupid those subjects are.

(sarcasm of course)

This attitude was what initially bugged the hell out of me about posting at the jref. People acted like there wasn’t any real data about women’s issues, that any opinion they pulled out of their ass that minute was worth talking about.

212. Lance Johnson says

Women can very easily avoid being raped if they just lock themselves up in a room and never interact with the rest of humanity. Why is that so hard? Geez.

213. Oh hai thar Thunderfoot, I see you are trying to make math out of human behavior. (Welcome to my world.) But there are problems here. It appears your proxies are unclear, it’s not clear that you understand the relationships you are attempting to illustrate as all multiplicatives (nor do you apparently know what the rationale for making something multiplicative in this sort of equation is), and it’s not clear what your proxies have to do with one another.

I give you a D, since you are ignorant of the necessary theories and background in statistics needed to understand the task you just tried to do. (Hint: it’s not as easy as deciding that you like the way something looks or sounds. Stop abusing math.)

I am quite curious to see if our resident apologists can tell me what I should have done differently. I was 8 or so, and my parents had invited over the pastor’s family for a dinner party. Their son molested me in my room during the dinner party, with my younger brother in the same room, playing. I was wearing a plaid jumper and white tights–tell me, was that provocative dress? Should I have known better than to be in my own bedroom? Should I have known not to play with someone who my parents allowed to babysit me and whose family they trusted? Shouldn’t my brother (who was 6) have protected me?

I’m just dying to know how much to blame myself, here. Do hurry. As a lady brain, I’m in danger of forgetting not to have any self-esteem or sense of worth. Hell, I’ve been up for hours without having a panic attack or reliving trauma, and we all know how much you fucks hate that.

214. says

I’m talking about stuff like not getting drunk at parties where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys, and not getting into cars with men you don’t know well, and not going home with someone you just met at a singles bar.

how many times do we need to explain to you that the data shows that those are not the dangerous scenarios before you stop telling women to curtail their freedoms for no fucking reason?

215. brianpansky says

but also, looking at the following:

I’m talking about stuff like not getting drunk at parties where you’re surrounded by hormone-driven frat boys

interesting who you are telling not to do that. could the creators of that situation not make the event safer? are people born vermin monsters who can’t run safe parties? and if so, can’t we use that info to crack down? no use educating….ANY of the people who made those events happen? none of the attendees? i could go on for paragraphs. if that is supposed to be a predictably very dangerous situation, then maybe that kind of event should not be allowed to happen at all without certain kinds of policies in place, and security persons present.

but no, let’s spend hours on this unfairly burdensome, statistically miniscule (at best), victim-blaming, least reasonable solution possible, and maybe that will work ‘good enough’ somehow.

216. Catching up but wanted to add this to the hardhat analogy.

When someone doesn’t wear a hard hat in a construction site and something starts falling towards them, the site doesn’t just shrug their shoulders and go “well, what were they thinking walking around without a hard hat, of course stuff was going to fall on their head”. They don’t say “well, not wearing a hard hat makes objects fall from the sky more often so what were they thinking”. They don’t go “everyone knows buildings like to fall apart on people with scalps visible, so really what were we to expect”. They don’t simply let the objects fall on them without even trying to intervene, because it’s like a force of nature. And if the individual tries to receive care we don’t go “nope, no care for you, you didn’t wear your hard hat so clearly all these injuries, even the ones you would have received if you had worn the hat are your fault”.

Instead, we usually try and push the person out of the way or call out. At a site if an accident occurs, they always call it out so people can try and get out of the way, hard hat or no. People might often try and tackle them out of the way to try and protect them, going out of their way to risk injury to themselves to do so.

And that’s something that is an accident, that could happen to anyone and to which there is a mandatory, government-mandated safety precaution that has actually been tied to lowered injury rates through reputable scientific studies.

But make it rape and suddenly, we react in a way we do with no other thing and place all the blame on the victim. And there’s a reason for that. It’s called the rape culture.

217. Airplane security theatre:

Hmm, it may have just escaped my attention, but I don’t remember a giant outpouring of focus after the 9/11 attacks on the stupidity of the victims. About how if they just didn’t work in invitingly tall buildings that some fuckers took for a sign of Western decadence or rode planes (I mean, even after they already knew that sometimes planes are hijacked). We didn’t sneer at anybody who tried to fly in the months and years since going “oh, look at them getting on an airplane, it’ll only serve them right if they blow up in a fiery ball of wreckage”. We didn’t pat those who wanted to blow up airplanes on the back and say, “eh, bombing is a natural force and it’s stupidity to try and care about it, maybe everyone should lock themselves inside their house, but not in a shut-in crazy-cat-lady way”.

Instead, we went absolutely overboard trying to prevent things or just show we cared about preventing things. Putting everyone through elaborate security theater just to try and decrease things slightly. We had most of congress arguing that those who bombed or those who looked like those who bombed or those who come from countries we invaded because we were myopic idiots after we were bombed were some kind of new super villain we had to hide from any due process in case they broke out with Lex Luthor and took down Superman.

Again, the response was absolutely different from the constant need to blame we see about rape. And it’s only rape that brings this level of victim blame this consistently.

how many times do we need to explain to you that the data shows that those are not the dangerous scenarios before you stop telling women to curtail their freedoms for no fucking reason?

It’s almost like that’s the point. The curtailing of freedoms for women that were hard fought and won.

Like still in the 21st century, the rape culture is there to try and hard-sell the loss of freedom, the idea that “do you really want to participate freely and without fear in these communities, these situations. That it’s a perfect tool if bent to try and beat women back to being scared and accepting of whatever social and physical abuse there is. That we can see this more directly in communities that use the threat of rape to justify massive restrictions on the freedoms of women.

219. says

Dundertoot has yet another flaw in his reasoning. He assumes all rapists are the same.

My attacker targeted me while I was dressed in work clothes. He didn’t think it was right that a woman was working construction and thought I needed to be ‘put back in my place’.

My friend’s attacker targeted her because he liked her vulnerable, feminine look – long skirt, demure top, long hair, shy, and cautious. He had it in his head that it was some kind of rom com romance and that his persistent stalking of her was going to make her fall madly in love with him and so he could ignore all her nos, restraining orders, and attempts to fight him off while screaming for help.

Another friend’s attacker targeted her because she was an older single mom already dealing with a nasty court case (a drunk off-duty cop crashed his car into hers and she had the ‘nerve’ to complain about it) and he figured (sadly correctly) that she couldn’t go to the cops because they were already mistreating her for daring to issue a complaint about one of them.

Another friend’s attacker targeted her because she looked like the ex-girlfriend that has recently broken his heart by recognizing that he was a cheating scumbag moocher.

Another friend’s attacker targeted him because the fact that he favored a cowboy hat apparently made him a ‘fag’.

Another friend’s attacker targeted her because her brother beat him up for harassing the brother’s girlfriend.

Another friend’s attacker targeted her because he just had a thing for gingers and liked to get the drunk and ‘take advantage’. Thought them fighting and trying to protest when he ‘made his move’ was just that ‘ginger spiciness’ and ‘totally hot’.

Another friend’s attacker targeted him because boys living with an aunt and uncle who were unprepared for taking on a tween boy that just went through a massive trauma and had to leave all his friends behind in addition to losing his parents suddenly are vulnerable to having their emotions manipulated.

There is no common factor to rapes other than the presence of a rapist, therefore the only ‘safety’ precaution that can be taken is to avoid rapists. Unfortunately, the only technique we have for determining the probability of who might be a rapist is to observe behavior and attitudes that are, incidentally, expressed by Dundertoot himself.

220. Doug Hudson says

My test of rape apologia:

Any person should be able to walk naked and drunk down the darkest street in the world without getting raped.

Anyone who says “but they shouldn’t have been naked and drunk” is a rape apologist.

Nothing justifies rape.

221. says

could the creators of that situation not make the event safer?

but then people like TF would have to fill out paperwork in triplicate before they’d be allowed to bite women’s legs. Why do you want to destroy fun?

222. Jackie Papercuts says

Guys who think there is a body language that “sends signals” to men are full of shit. They have clearly not been followed around, given surprise shoulder massages, etc. from some asshole who has gotten it in his head that you will go home with him if he just keeps trying. This crap happens when you go out in jeans, no make-up and a male friend. It happens when you have clearly stated that you have no interest in him. That stuff can happen because you said something to him about the weather. Treat a guy like that as a sexual predator and you are a psychobitch who needs to be more charitable of men with poor social skills. Tolerate him and not only is your night ruined, but you’ll be accused of leading him on.

A gay buddy of mine has offered to start getting as touchy with straight guys as they get with the ladies he goes out with as a way of getting the message across. If I thought that wouldn’t result in him getting pummeled, I’d be all for that idea.

223. Jackie Papercuts says

I wonder if Phil knows that the women men are chomping on, groping etc. without consent are not having any fun. I wonder if he cares?

224. Still catching up, but Anri @89

In other words, if a woman doesn’t take precautions, and isn’t raped, did she have to take precautions? What maker her situation different from a woman who doesn’t take precautions and is raped?
(Hint: it has to do with the fact that you can’t rape yourself.)

Like many women I’ve been both women at different times. Very recently, I was at a fetish fair, topless. I was hanging with friends, we were taking public transportation, so I let myself have a few drinks. Afterwards we were walking through stereotypical (i.e. racist and classist) ideas of a bad neighborhood, one with an increase in violence and hostility towards queer people of late, late at night, still nearly nude. I think at one point I even walked away from the group of similarly dressed women to check out the bus sign to try and help find someone’s stop. We even let several men approach us and listened to what they had to say.

I wasn’t raped.

When I was raped I was in a crowded room, filled with people. I was dressed in t-shirt and shorts. I wasn’t drunk. I had friends to watch my back and whose leads I was following. That didn’t stop it.

If I had known self-defense or struck out violently, that probably wouldn’t have even stopped it, though it definitely would have gotten me kicked out of something I otherwise enjoyed, possibly for all time.

As everyone notes, the precautions do fuck all in even preventing that rare creature that is rape by stranger, so why the fuck are they still sold as a panacea to the victims?

225. @ Skeptifem #217

People acted like there wasn’t any real data about women’s issues, that any opinion they pulled out of their ass that minute was worth talking about.

Ugh, exactly. This attitude has been driving me up a wall. So many of the people outside the FTB community that come to argue/whine about various social justice related posts act this way, too. It’s infuriating; because they dismiss the “soft” sciences as worthless or relativistic, they don’t feel it’s necessary to do any background reading, or defer to experts in the field, as they would with any subject that landed in the “hard” sciences.

You really see this on display during discussions of racism, when hordes of the Whiny Whites complain that racism doesn’t really mean “power + prejudice”, it means “any time a person of one race says mean things to a person of another race” (or whatever definition they pulled out of their ass), so of course black people are racist, reverse racism, etc. And when those of us who have actually spent time studying the subject–some of whom have actual relevant degrees –insist that, no, that might be the colloquial definition, but that’s not the sociological definition, they throw a hissy fit about how we’re the ones redefining words, and we should use the colloquial definition, whatever they think that definition is–there tends to be more than one flying around. (Which is why we need a set definition in the first place, but it works out well for them: they can come in, refuse to use the correct terms, create total confusion because no one is talking about the same thing, so people begin arguing at cross-purposes, and then they can throw their hands up and say, “See, those soft sciences are meaningless.”)

But they would be the first to laugh at a creationist who jumped into a discussion on evolution and started throwing around, “But evolution is just a theory!” They would never accept the creationists argument that we should use the colloquial definition, not the scientific definition. But they are just like experienced creationists: their tactics rely on redefining accepted terms and then arguing against straw. (Also, a complete lack of respect for the academic field of study and past research, for all their claims of logic, reason, and scientific discipline.)

If only these intrepid “skeptics”, these mighty Critical Thinkers, would turn a fraction of that skepticism onto themselves, would apply the same reasoning to their arguments against feminism (or racism or *insert social justice issue here*) as they do to creationism*, like 90% of this bullshit would disappear. But I’m losing hope that it will happen–though, I have heard (and seen firsthand) several people who were initially caught up in dudebro asshattery, but after examining their beliefs and listening to others, were able to change. (Which is like the whole point of the skeptic movement, no?) So. I know it’s possible…but just like with religion, there are a disturbing amount of people who’d rather cling to their bullshit than accept reality. *sigh*

*Using “creationism” as my main example, in the last few posts, because, hello, Thunderfoot.

226. says

I wonder if Phil knows that the women men are chomping on, groping etc. without consent are not having any fun. I wonder if he cares?

given that he freaked the fuck out about harassment policies, but wants to restrict women’s behavior far more severely than harassment policies would have affected him, I see no reason to believe he gives a flying fuck about anyone’s fun but his own.

227. ryancunningham says

Thunderfoot has a PhD, but he doesn’t understand probability?! You can’t just multiply probabilities without making an independence assumption, and he doesn’t even attempt to justify his independence assumption. He’s failing in what should be an area of expertise.

What’s the probability of rolling a 1 on a dice? It’s the probability of not rolling a 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 40%. I can math good!

228. John Smith @135

Already nicely handled, but I want to point out one specific thing to all the trolls who want to argue about “abusive” feminists not treating their shopworn arguments with free blowjobs and cake as they seem to think they deserve for being a maaaan with maaaan opinions.

Wow I didn’t actually believe that before but it seems to be the case on this particular forum at least. No legitimate reply just abuse nice way to try and make the world better.

Abuse?!?

Yeah, poor widdle baby, having your arguments dismissed by people who are tired of this fucking bad faith game (and 99% it is a bad faith game by someone with no intention of actually engaging and learning). That’s so the same as abuse.

Except no.

Abuse is literally getting the shakes because you have to go home to the father you threatened to kill you the last time you were with him and has a bad habit of punching people who disappoint him because you know if you don’t, he’ll just take it out on your little sister.

Abuse is having an endless stream of bullshit head-spinning reasons of your inferiority thrown at you for years by someone who threatened to kill themselves if you ever left them, leaving you with so many scars that still 10 years later you worry that your romantic partner is going to still be him, because part of you is still stuck in that house and may never leave.

Abuse is a gaslighting little employer who has decided that who you are is an abomination and that you need to go, no matter your performance. So everything you do is wrong and you have no hours and even though it seems like they’re training everyone else to be more like you, you’re crazy to see it or think anything is going on. But quickly scramble to recloset yourself and jump into the job market because if you process that for a second then you’ll sink and die, so who cares if that trauma starts leaking into your personal romantic interactions.

Abuse is having the flashbacks and anxiety and body memories of your rape, months and years afterwards, constantly every night because some fucker decided they were as entitled to your body in the same way as you think you are entitled to our time, attention, and education (why the fuck do I need to do my job for free for you in my off-time simply because you “demand” it).

So fuck your whiny woe is me pose you wannabe victim.

229. @ Cerberus von Snarkmistress #222

Perfect. The whole thing. Exactly. That analogy was hella bugging me, and you knocked it out of the park. Thank you.

@ WithinThisMind #225, Cerberus von Snarkmistress #230

Exactly. The idea that rape can be boiled down to a simple formula, change factor “a” and eliminate rape forever, is so obviously ridiculous, so contrary to all the known, recorded evidence…it’s hard for me to even think of an equivalent creationist claim that is so off-base.

Unless the factor you eliminate is “rapists”. You can’t even, say, lock up all the men, because that wouldn’t protect people from female rapists and child molesters. It’s not like they’re all wearing a sign, so we do the best that we can: work to educate all men about rape/rape culture, and evaluate individual situations as best we can.

Of course, then we get accused of “misandry” when we discuss things like “shroedinger’s rapist”. More proof of their complete inability to be consistant or rational: Shroedinger’s Rapist is misandrist and irrational, but it’s also totally irattional to not follow “anti-rape” tips like “avoid all drunk frat-boys/men at bars” and “don’t accept rides from men” and “when leaving the house, tailor all of your decisions and actions, from how you dress, wear your hair, how you walk and carry yourself, and how you respond to men, all from the point of view of how to deflect a potential rapist” and even “violently defend yourself when you’re feeling at all threatened”–but Rebecca Watson is paranoid and man-hating for being uncomfortable in an elevator.

Oooo yeah. Totally consistent and rational. Clearly, y’all are arguing from pure logic. Sure glad you’re here to straighten out us irrational, emotional ladies. How can I get my thinking to be as clear, consistent, and organized as yours?

I just rolled my eyes so hard, they hurt.

(Also, I just wanted to say I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Thank you for sharing your stories and illustrating these apologists’ complete disconnect from reality.)

@ mouthyb, Vagina McTits, #219

I’m so sorry that happened.

I had a somewhat similar experience–I was 9, and the pastor’s son (17-18) had moved into our house to finish up his last year of High School, after his father was “called” to another church out of the area. He molested me for about a year…I was the perfect victim: completely innocent in sexual matters; trained to unquestioningly obey those older than me, in authority; conditioned to fear angering my parents (so threats of “if you say anything I’ll tell your father what you’ve been doing” were very effective); homeschooled, though my mom worked long hours, and I was very often home alone (or baby-sitting my younger brothers). Even knowing that, even fully understanding the whys and hows, there are times I struggle with crushing self-hatred and blame. And yes, I’ve gotten buckets of blame from the (very few) people I told about this…I’ve heard, “Why didn’t you just tell us?” (from my parents) ;”Why didn’t you yell for help if other people were around?”; “You’re responsible for every child he molested after you, because you didn’t tell anyone.” (I have to say, that last one is the hardest. I feel it the most often. The guilt can be crushing, sickening.)

230. vaiyt says

Thunderfart does understand probbility very well. His equation is designed to maximize the probability he will have fun regardless of what women think, and minimize the probability that they have any say on it. It’s not thoughtless at all, but rather a deliberate “I want mine and fuck you” to all women.

231. Erin: I’d say it was all right, but that’s not right. Like you (at least that’s how I read your comment), my problem was as much with the aftermath than the incident. I never got blamed for any subsequent molestation, but my family chose to interpret the molestation as my seducing that nice pastor’s boy.

And like you, all my life training till that point was about obedience and fear. I knew nothing about sex, only about trying to be good. I was a bookish little girl for a long time, if subject to occasional acts of aggression when I felt overwhelmed.

It’s amazing to me how young people can be in this culture and still blamed for their own assault–it’s case in point for how much bullshit it is to accuse the victim.
______________________________________________________________________

Just for the record, I fucking hate the body language argument. I get harassed more when I’m feeling confident than I ever do when I can barely stand to be in public. It’s like certain types of men can’t stand it when I’m relaxed and happy.

232. David Marjanović says

Why do people laugh at Thunderfoot?

Well said.

As I’ve said several times, I despise this sort of libertarian thinking. Of course I don’t want to be raped. But that doesn’t mean I want other people to be raped instead of me. I don’t want anyone to rape anyone. I want social rape prevention. No factors that I allegedly individually control could do anything to address the social problem of rape, and the very idea that I have that individual control perpetuates that social problem.

QFT again!

233. says

I don’t know why you silly lady brains can’t comprehend Thunderf00t’s genius. All you need to do to prevent rape is strap a mountain lion covered in wasps (all of which need to wear hard hats) to you groin!
COMMON SENSE!!! LOGIC!!!

234. A. Noyd says

The efficacy of TF’s “advice” seems to function a lot like the efficacy of prayer: make up some excuse for the supposed failures and claim every desirable outcome as a success. No need to account for causation at all.

235. I would like to know, Dr. Mason, should I have breast-reduction surgery?
Because, you know, they’re quite large* and their size seems to trigger some men’s sexual assault mode**

*Yes, I know, it is my fault. I should just have stopped them growing when they were pretty small. Sadly, back then I didn’t know there were awesome guys on the internet who could teach me all about reasonable behaviour. My fault.
**I know, what am I thinking, wearing them in public. I really know that it’s my fault. If I only knew what body-language would convey the meassage “don’t touch my tits, asshole”. Can you help me?

236. A. Noyd: Hell, Mason isn’t even interested in correlation, let alone causation, in his model.

237. kittehserf says

Louis @216 – I dunno about wearing a mountain lion, but how about one as an accessory?

Or a tiger. Or a jaguar. Or a leopard.

Doesn’t matter really, as long as they’re big and fierce. I could go with a really big fierce kitteh as my accessory/chaperone.

238. burgundy says

There’s a sort of spontaneous generation feel to all this, isn’t there? Just as rotten meat produces maggots, so does behaving like a hussy produce rapists. Science!

239. loopyj says

@215

Isn’t it obvious what the magic perfect solution is? All women must wear a hardhat over their crotch. Rape solved.

PZ, Surely you meant to write: “All men must wear a hardhat over their crotch. Rape solved.”

240. kittehserf says

burgundy @244 – so does not behaving like a hussy, of course. Science is amazing!

241. zyxw says

Longtime follower, first time poster here.
I watched that entire session on the MSS, and I have to say I found that for a bunch of “skeptics”, I found the amount of hand waving away logical incongruities to be appalling. Aron and Lilandra were about the only 2 people making sense. Putting aside the emotional toll for the time being (which is terrible), there were several major flaws in their arguments. I think most of the other commenters covered it better than I have, but one thing I don’t think has been said is this issue of whether women can do anything to prevent rapes, and what that means for the victim.

If you take the position that a woman can take precautions to prevent rapes, then, by definition, you are claiming that if a woman does not take those precautions and gets raped, it is partially her fault. Please forgive the analogy, but this is somewhat analogous to something like theft. If you don’t lock your car doors and someone walks off with your laptop that you left in plain view on the front seat, then you are partially responsible. It seems to me that insurance companies hold the same view, if you fail to adequately secure your belongings, then they have grounds to deny or reduce your claim, because you have contributed to the circumstances that allowed the theft to happen.

That said, especially in the case of date rapes, there is nothing the victim can do to prevent a rape short of physically harming the rapist. Nothing. And considering that the vast majority of rapes are, in fact, rapes by acquaintances, that is the issue that warrants the most attention, which brings us back to the subject of Thunderdoods video. The t-shirt that he took offense to was CLEARLY aimed at date rapes and educating boys /men about what actually constitutes a rape, and giving boys /men the courage to speak up when they see a rape about to happen and to not condone the behaviour. But the MSS guys (other than Aron and Lilandra) were talking about accepting that there are things a woman can do to prevent rapes. And so all of their mental gymnastics aside, they are, in fact, engaging in victim blaming whether they like it or not.

Sorry about the really long post.

242. burgundy says

kittehserf @246 – well now, I have only a meager social science ladybrain, not a masterful dudely chemistry PhD brain, so possibly all these sophistimicated mathematics are beyond me. But this is what I’ve come up with after chewing over that formula for awhile:

It looks like multiplication, which would mean that if any variable were 0, the whole thing would be 0, so if a woman did everything in the blue part of the equation absolutely right, she would have no chance of being raped. Which is patently untrue, and every apologist who’s come through has magnanimously conceded that it’s not possible to prevent all rapes, we can only reduce our risk. So that seems more like addition to me, and if your factors all add up to the magic rape number, then oops, too bad for you. So the blue part could be zero, and if the red part is high enough, then you still get raped. It’s only with a mid-range red number that proper blue action can keep you below the rape threshold.

But! If all of that is true, then it follows that if the blue part is high enough, then you could pass the threshold and get raped *even if the red side is low or zero.* If you don’t act like a hussy, you might still get raped if you happen to be around a super-concentrated rapist. But if you act like an extra-strength hussy, your hussiness will magically (I mean, scientifically) produce a rape even when there was previously no rapist around. Thus, spontaneous generation.

243. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

Sorry about the really long post.

244. ……..I’d like a tshirt that says “extra strength hussy.”

245. kittehserf says

burgundy @248 – spontaneously generated rapists seem to be the core of the claims, don’t they? Our hussiness factor creates ’em, and it’s up to us to not be hussies … except that breathing while female is an automatic hussiness generator.

Amazing how these spontaneous generations of hussiness or rapeyness override the dudely power logic brain every. damn. time.

(Confession: I can’t think of “hussy” especially as in “shameless hussy” without seeing this. It takes a cat to do ShamelessHussiness™ properly.)

246. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw @247:

If you take the position that a woman can take precautions to prevent rapes, then, by definition, you are claiming that if a woman does not take those precautions and gets raped, it is partially her fault. Please forgive the analogy, but this is somewhat analogous to something like theft. If you don’t lock your car doors and someone walks off with your laptop that you left in plain view on the front seat, then you are partially responsible. It seems to me that insurance companies hold the same view, if you fail to adequately secure your belongings, then they have grounds to deny or reduce your claim, because you have contributed to the circumstances that allowed the theft to happen.

No, I really can’t forgive that analogy.

Women are not valuables. They are human beings. How can their orifices be “adequately secure[d]”? Put them in head-to-toe kevlar and give someone else (say, a male relative or her husband (her keeper?)) the key that unlocks the magic suit? Maybe keep them locked up? Make sure they never touch alcohol, or recreational drugs, or leave the house without a chaperone?

I willingly joined Cub Scouts. Did I “fail to adequately secure [my] belongings, . . . because [I] have contributed to the circumstances that allowed the [rape] to happen”?

Other than that, I agree with your comment.

247. awakeinmo says

I know it’s been said, but why is it “teach women to not get raped” instead of “teach men to not rape”?

248. klatu says

No, no, the equation makes total sense! All you need to do in order to avoid being raped is to reduce your rapeability to zero. Duh! Now shush, ladies! The men are solving rape over here! [/bitter sarcasm]

249. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

I know it’s been said, but why is it “teach women to not get raped” instead of “teach men to not rape”?

The MRA/liberturd contingent might have to learn something. They appear incapable of learning.

250. kittehserf says

Nerd @255:

The MRA/liberturd contingent might have to learn something. They appear incapable of learning.

It would oppress them terribly. It suggests that they are not entitled to fuck who they want, when they want, how they want. It suggests consent is a thing.

251. Doug Hudson says

kittehserf@256, right, and then they get offended when people point that out.

Part of the reason that TF’s arguments seem so awkward is that he is trying to defend a truly heinous worldview while simultaneously claiming the moral high ground.

Shorter TF:
“I’m trying to protect women by giving them tips on how to avoid rape…because I want to foster the misapprehension that women are responsible for their rapes, which frees me up to not have to worry about my own behavior. How dare you call me a apologist? I’m just trying to help!”

Uh, yeah. Might want to go one or the other there, buddy…trying to argue contradictory positions at the same time only works in Wonderland.

252. zyxw says

Ogvorbis @252. Of course women aren’t valuables. If it seems that I’m saying that then I apologise. I just felt that I needed to use a somewhat less contentious, and less serious, crime of opportunity to make my point, which is that if there is something the victim can do to prevent something, and they don’t do it, then, by definition, they have contributed to the circumstances.

In the case of rape, the premise of that argument doesn’t hold, because there is nothing the victim can reasonably do. To your example of Girl Scouts, a child cannot prevent a rape. It is up to the adults to create an environment which will prevent rape from happening. That means adequately vetting their leaders, training, and safeguards like, say, having 2 adults present at all times, having an avenue of reporting inappropriate behaviour, etc.

I suppose that if there were reasonable things that a woman could do to prevent rape, and they didn’t do those things, then yeah, I would hold the victim partially responsible. Not 100%, or even primarily responsible, but partially responsible. But I dont think there are, so I don’t.

253. Caught up in the thread just in time to go to work.

On the rape as theft argument that always fucking crops up:

It’s because they view women not as people but as a man’s valuables somewhere. A woman is just a toaster oven that dispenses sex and other services to her owner (father growing up and in house, husband after marriage, anyone’s who wants her in between unless spoken for in person by parent, sibling, or boyfriend). So a woman who doesn’t dispense sex when required is a broken toaster failing to deliver her one major commodity and must be punished by training her in her proper activity.

It is also why rape isn’t really viewed as bad and its on the woman to signal that she has a proper owner. And it’s also why date rape, parent rape, or family rape are conveniently ignored because of course those people as owners have the right to use their property as they see fit.

Which is also why they seem to have a hard time articulating exactly what their perspective is to those inconvenient sentient toasters.

But yeah, we will all be better when this transactional, women as sex class or sex as commodity worldview dies the fiery death it does.

P.S. This also leads to its shares of rapes of men and asexuals of all genders. Since “men” are the pursuers of goods, then they always want to purchase the sex token and so one can’t force sex they don’t want (as long as it isn’t queer or rather interpreted by the rapist as queer) on the person.

And yeah typing all this shit out just makes me want to take a long shower and never come out.

254. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

I understand. However, any comparison between rape and protecting your valuables is an analogy that fails on multiple levels.

To your example of Girl Scouts

Yeah. It was Cub Scouts.

a child cannot prevent a rape.

I keep telling myself that. And still ahve trouble believing it.

It is up to the adults to create an environment which will prevent rape from happening.

That would have been nice.

Instead, he created the opposite environment. His view was that girls were put on earth as vehicles of pleasure for men (and if they said no, men can take it anyway). And he wanted us to grow up to be men, not girls. So he showed us what our live would be liek as girls.

Sorry. Not in a good place right now.

255. Ingdigo Jump says

To your example of Girl Scouts, a child cannot prevent a rape

*footage of a man lining up a golf swing, then slicing, and going falling backwards into a water trap as the club goes soaring into the horizon and hits a goose in the head killing it*

256. Ingdigo Jump says

YOu know this stupid arguement doesn’t even work for theft?

Evne giving all the assumptions: stupidity or brain farts aren’t do not deserve to be punished.

257. zyxw says

Also, when listening to the entire 6 hours or so of that video, it wasn’t just TFoot who was making problematic statements. His were the most egregious, but other comments included things like the following.

One of the panelists made the comment, while talking about if consent could be given while drunk, that he didn’t want his son to be in a position where the other party could decide if they were raped or not, from a legal perspective. If your lesson is that you shouldn’t do something only because it is legally problematic, then perhaps you are the one who needs some perspective.

Another made the comment that, while talking about if a woman could do something that could reduce her chances of being raped, that there are things a rapist looks for, like age and attractiveness. So, according to him, to prevent getting raped a woman should change her age and attractiveness.

That was my first time listening to that show, and based on the content, I don’t think I would bother again. It was an absolute mess.

258. Victorious Parasol says

I think enough spikes have been put in the painfully inadequate “rape as theft” analogy that I don’t need to say anything else along those lines.

I will say that I’m beyond sick and tired of the assumption that a victim could’ve/should’ve done something differently. Yes, it’s a good idea to take reasonable precautions, whatever that means. I think we’ve all heard that often enough. What we need to say more often, to ourselves and to each other, is to understand that reasonable precautions alone are not enough, and it’s not our fault when those reasonable precautions fail. That the ultimate fault lies with whoever decided to commit a crime. Put the primary responsibility where it belongs: on the ones who violate the laws of a state, country, or simple human decency.

259. zyxw says

I am trying, perhaps badly, to make the exact point that rape is NOT like theft. If it were, then you could respond to it differently.

Ogvorbis @260 – Cub Scouts, sorry. I was typing on the iPad and it is so slow, I had forgotten which one by the time I got there.

And I am sorry that you were betrayed so badly. It IS their fault. I was molested when I was young (about 9, I think) by an older boy I looked up to, and although I don’t think about it much anymore, it’s never really gone away. I’m 42 now, and I still think about it. I’ve forgiven him because of the ages, he was a child as well, really, and I have a feeling that he had learned this behaviour from another person.

@262 – actually, it kinda does work for theft, within bounds. I have a \$1500 camera. If I leave it unattended on a park bench, and it gets stolen, I HAVE contributed to the loss, because I have a reasonable belief that someone will come along and steal it. We know this because it happens all the time, and it is why it is noteworthy when someone turns it in. It should be the norm that it is turned in, but it isn’t, so we are expected to take precautions. I wouldn’t expect sympathy from anyone in that case, I would expect to be told that it was my own damned fault. And it would be, at least partially.

However. rape is NOT like theft. The victim cannot be held responsible because they do not have any control over whether they are a victim or not.

260. Doug Hudson says

For zyxw, let me expand my “rape apologist test” a bit:

A person should be able to leave their doors unlocked without getting burgled.
A person should be able to leave their wallet on a park bench and return to find it untouched, with all money accounted for.

Anyone who responds “they should have known better” is an apologist for theft.

The fact that people need to take precautions against theft is a sad reality, but it does not mean that people who do not take these precautions share any responsibility for the theft.

No one is forced to steal*. No one is forced to rape**. The responsibility for the act lies solely with the person committing the act.

*Not entirely true, but even if someone is faced with stealing food or starving, the responsibility still lies entirely with the thief.
**Ditto.

261. Doug Hudson says

Oops, hit post too soon. The postscript should say, “the circumstances may mitigate the culpability of the person committing the act, but they do not transfer responsibility to the victim.”

262. burgundy says

I’m pretty iffy even on the phrase “reasonable precautions.” I feel like there’s a certain amount of question-begging in terms of what makes something reasonable.

(I know that analogies can be problematic, but that’s where my mind tends to go. Please let me know if this crosses a line, and I will recalibrate.)

It is “reasonable” for me to wear a sweater when it’s chilly out, because weather is what it is and seasonal temperature changes are part of how the world works and my body responds in a set, predictable way to different temperatures. I do not think it is “reasonable” for me to have to carry a sweater when it’s a hundred degrees out. But the people in charge of such things at the places I’ve worked tend to turn up the AC to arctic levels in the summer, and I can get very cold indoors. I will bring a sweater because I know that this is a thing many people do, but that doesn’t make it reasonable. Those air conditioning settings are not reasonable. To say that wearing a sweater at work is reasonable is to accept that the thermostat is just part of how things are, it elides the conscious decisions that create the status quo. So don’t tell me that bringing a sweater is reasonable; it’s not, it’s something that was forced upon me.

Choosing to not walk alone through my neighborhood at night is not a “reasonable precaution.” There is nothing in the act of a nighttime stroll that is inherently unsafe. The social context that makes such an action potentially dangerous is not set in stone. I feel like if we just accept de facto curfews as “reasonable” then on some level we’re accepting that this is just how things are. And they needn’t be that way. A woman might choose, based on the options and information available to her, not to walk alone at night, but that’s not reasonable precaution, that’s a choice forced on her by unreasonable and changeable circumstances.

263. zyxw says

I agree, it shouldn’t make a difference. However in the real world we live in, it does make a difference. Let me make a really glaringly obvious example. I know for a fact that if I drove into a high crime area at Christmas time with my car full of presents and the doors unlocked with all of the items showing and the price tags and left the car there for a sufficient period of time, all of my stuff would get stolen. My failure to adequately secure my stuff increased the opportunity for someone to steal my stuff as opposed to if I had secured my valuables in a locked trunk, locked the doors, stayed out of the high crime area, etc. I am not saying that the perpetrator isn’t primarily responsible, I am saying that the victim could have taken steps to reduce the likelihood of being a victim. That shouldn’t even be contentious. Locking your stuff works to prevent some thefts, just like wearing a hard hat works to prevent some head injury in a construction zone. It is a simple, reasonable precaution that everyone agrees you should do.

I suppose that would make me a “theft apologist”, and a “head injury apologist”, for that matter, but unlike rape apologists, I don’t think a theft apologist is a real thing. Because like I said above, rape and theft are not the same thing, neither in nature nor in degree.

That’s it, last post on theft. I think I’ve made my point. Agree to disagree, perhaps.

264. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

My vagina is not a Christmas present.

Just thought I’d throw that out there.

265. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

For someone who is insistent that you are not making the argument that women, like physical valuable such as your camera, should be locked away and protected, you seem to be putting a shitload of effort into pushing your idea of shared culpability.

266. says

*Not entirely true, but even if someone is faced with stealing food or starving, the responsibility still lies entirely with the thief

Bullshit.

It should be the norm that it is turned in, but it isn’t, so we are expected to take precautions. I wouldn’t expect sympathy from anyone in that case, I would expect to be told that it was my own damned fault. And it would be, at least partially.

No it fucking wouldn’t. No one deserves to have shit stollen like that. THe fault lies in the person who exploited a vulnerability. WHy the fuck don’t you see that as a bad thing?

267. zyxw says

monkey @ 270 – no it isn’t. That’s my point.

268. zyxw says

ogvorbis @271 – read what I actually said. Where have I said that women shared culpability for rape? I believe I’ve said the exact opposite.

269. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

You keep writing that you do not think that women share any culpability in rape no matter what and then are expending a great deal of effort defending shared culpability for theft. In a thread about rape. Read what my #271 actually says.

270. klatu says

@zyxw #269

It is a simple, reasonable precaution that everyone agrees you should do.

The thieves would disagree.

Because like I said above, rape and theft are not the same thing, neither in nature nor in degree.

Then why the derail?

271. A. Noyd says

burgundy (#268)

I feel like there’s a certain amount of question-begging in terms of what makes something reasonable.

Not to mention, the precautions women already do take (such as described in Schrodinger’s Rapist) are disparaged by TF and his pals as showing too much paranoia. So there’s no way to win here. I like the rest of your post here, BTW. Good deconstruction of (so-called) reasonable precautions.

~*~*~*~*~*~

zyxw (#269)

I know for a fact that if I drove into a high crime area at Christmas time…

What’s a “high rape” area?

272. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

A. Noyd @277:

What’s a “high rape” area?

Any place that has women. Or girls. Or cub scouts. Or adult men. [/dark humour]

273. zyxw says

indigo @ 272 – I said I wouldn’t comment anymore on theft but someone is wrong on the internet. How can I be more clear? If your kid left their on a park bench and it got stolen, would you give your kid an explanation of societies’ ills and how it is wrong that someone would take their , and that none of this is their fault? Or would you tell them to be more careful with their shit?

274. zyxw says

edit 279 indigo @ 272 – I said I wouldn’t comment anymore on theft but someone is wrong on the internet. How can I be more clear? If your kid left their (random object) on a park bench and it got stolen, would you give your kid an explanation of societies’ ills and how it is wrong that someone would take their (random object) , and that none of this is their fault? Or would you tell them to be more careful with their shit?

275. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

For someone who is insistent that you are not making the argument that women, like physical valuable such as your camera, should be locked away and protected, you seem to be putting a shitload of effort into pushing your idea of shared culpability. Why?

276. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

Monitor Note
If the theft conversation must continue, please move it to the Thunderdome. If this is not meant as an analogy for anything related to the conversation here, then it’s just a derail.

277. zyxw says

@277 – “what’s a high rape area?” – I don’t know there is any such thing as an area where someone is more likely to be raped. That is my point. Theft =/= rape.

@276 – “why the derail” – I started out by pointing out how the MSS video used, as a premise, that there were things a woman could in fact do to reduce their likelihood of being raped. That was an oft-repeated statement of “fact” throughout the 6 hour video, Aron and Lilandra were the only ones to challenge that premise. Like Aron and Lilandra, I disagree with that premise. I think if you apply that premise to something like theft, then it is a valid premise, but it is not valid for rape.

278. zyxw says

@282 – I’m using it in response to the assertions made in the Magic Sandwich videos on this subject. If I’m out of line, or straying too far afield, I apologize.

279. burgundy says

A. Noyd @277 – Thanks! I think the hypocrisy bothers me more than anything else, because it makes it so clear they’re not arguing in good faith. If the “women should take reasonable precautions” crowd really cared about women’s safety, they would be going up against the “Shroedinger’s rapist is misandry!” crowd, and yet somehow I never see it.

zyxw @ 280 – I promise that if a daughter of mine ever thoughtlessly left her vagina behind on a park bench, I would give her a stern talking-to.

280. Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion says

Just to bang another nail in the “women as property” reason why the theft analogies suck:

For a theft analogy to hold up, it needs to use the right parallels. In a theft case, your belongings are stolen, they are the “victim” in the sense of rape, not you. The analogy fails because you can’t have your vagina stolen/raped without it also being you. Money or belongings are not a piece of you. Theft would be a much, much more serious crime if they were. Unless they were only owned by women, that is.

If we flip the analogy and count the property as the victim in a theft (if we count women as property, that is – another major problem with this whole analogy thing), we are left in the absurd case of having to blame money for its theft. “It was just sitting there, so tempting and with such HUGE… amounts. It’s only natural for me to take it, on display like that.”
I suppose the only way it’s helpful is in showing how utterly pointless and stupid victim-blaming is, but only if we ignore that women are not property and have agency. So, far too problematic.

When you use a theft analogy, you’re either insinuating that vaginas are property, not people parts or that womens’ owners are the real victims of rape. Yeah… not so good.

281. Doug Hudson says

Ingdigo Jump@272, Not to continue the derail, but real quick–I was using a very strict meaning of “responsibility” there, I certainly don’t think the thief would be morally culpable for stealing to survive. I’m a socialist! I think society should make sure that no one has to steal to survive.

I apologize for implying otherwise, I tried to avoid that but obviously failed.

Anyway, enough of that, back to the thread at hand.

282. zyxw says

burgundy @268 – I agree 100%. There aren’t any reasonable precautions one could take to prevent themselves from being targeted for rape. Is it reasonable to walk around in plate mail at all times? /snark

283. Doug Hudson says

burgundy@280, hey, if men can have a detachable penis… (/song reference; /inappropriate levity)

284. Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion says

… discounting of course that vaginas are not the only parts that can be used in rape, that women are the only people raped and of course the whole gender binary crap…

Sorry, thought I had to clarify there. We’re so used to the whole men as rapists, women as victims thing, I fall into that trap so often myself. Apologies to victims everywhere on the gender spectrum – your experiences are very real and should not be minimised or erased.
It’s almost becoming a trope in itself – another excremental facet of rape culture.

285. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

Sophia @290:

Apologies to victims everywhere on the gender spectrum – your experiences are very real and should not be minimised or erased.

Thanks. That’s one of the reasons I have a tendency to mention my history. That, and the way that it gives the lie to the whole ‘reasonable precautions’ bullshit.

286. says

If your kid left their (random object) on a park bench and it got stolen, would you give your kid an explanation of societies’ ills and how it is wrong that someone would take their (random object) , and that none of this is their fault? Or would you tell them to be more careful with their shit?

I wouldn’t blame them for someone stealing their toy no. It’d be a painful lesson that people can’t be trusted but that it wasn’t their fault. They didn’t do anything wrong. The person who took it rather than doing the right thing was in the wrong.

People who show weakeness or make a mistake do not deserve to be victimized you fucking piss guzzling anus beast

287. says

More importantly I’d teach them that it’s not ok to steal. The only time to take something someone left by accident is to try to return it. You know; do the right thing?

You know, teaching children NOT to steal? That thing Thundy thinks we do that you’ve shown we clearly do not do?

288. zyxw says

Sophia @ 286 – if in any way I have given the impression that I think vaginas are property, I apologize. I thought I was clear that the analogy does not hold up, hence the misguided nature of the Magic Sandwich Show’s commentary, because by extension (perhaps flawed, I’m sure I’ll hear it if it is), by assuming that women can do things that can reduce their risk of being raped, they are the ones who are implicitly equating rape with other crimes where it IS possible to reduce your likelihood of becoming a victim, such as theft.

I’m trying to deconstruct that argument and show it for the flawed beast it is. My apologies for doing it so badly, this is my first time trying to actually argue this subject on this (or any) forum. I’ll try to frame my argument more clearly in the future.

289. Doug Hudson says

Ogvorbis@291: indeed, your story is…enlightening. And horrifying. I’ve never said anything before, because it leaves me speechless–“I’m sorry” seems so inadequate. All I can do is witness. But I do think your telling of the story can help cut away some of the bullshit that surrounds the rape culture.*

*Which is not to imply that rape survivors should feel any obligation to tell their stories, of course. Gah, so many necessary disclaimers, made necessary because of the pervasiveness and perversion of the patriarchy.

290. zyxw says

@290 – ditto

291. Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion says

@291 – Ogvorbis

As Jadehawk said in another thread, rape prevention tips have to actually prevent rape. The ones given are demonstrably ineffective, and mostly ignore everyone who isn’t a conventionally attractive cis-woman.

Why is it all so simple? If it’s so easy to identify the source of problems, they should be easy to solve. Rape culture is the source of a huge array of problems that cause millions upon millions of people to suffer. We know why and we know how to start the process of fixing it. Pity a major component of rape culture is the denial of its very existence. How in heck do we get over that little hurdle? :|

292. Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion says

@294 – zyxw

Oh, I was more just throwing my analysis hat into the ring really, not responding to you in particular! Just pointing out my reasoning behind the flaws in that particular line of argument. It’s an annoying one, since it’s so easy to equate crime A with crime B on the surface but when you dig a little deeper the assumptions become really, really harmful and wrong.

293. zyxw says

@293 – I know my mom did both with me – teach me it is wrong to steal, but also protect my shit because not everyone else shares that value. When I left something in a public place and it was stolen, she certainly told me it was my own damned fault. Guess what, I never did it again, and I’ve never had anything stolen from me since.

On topic (trying to keep it there), she also taught me to respect other people and not to rape.

I’m not quite sure what a fucking piss guzzling anus beast looks like? is that an insult? Are you 11?

294. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

Doug Hudson @295:

Ogvorbis@291: indeed, your story is…enlightening. And horrifying. I’ve never said anything before, because it leaves me speechless–”I’m sorry” seems so inadequate. All I can do is witness. But I do think your telling of the story can help cut away some of the bullshit that surrounds the rape culture.*

Thanks.

I keep coming into threads like this that I know are going to be triggering because I really do think I have a perspective that, though certainly not unique or special or unusual, can, occasionally, jolt someone out of their socialized world view.

*Which is not to imply that rape survivors should feel any obligation to tell their stories, of course. Gah, so many necessary disclaimers, made necessary because of the pervasiveness and perversion of the patriarchy.

Oh, I know. My willingness to share my history is in no way suggesting that others should do the same.

The first time I told anyone, ever, what happened was in the middle of a comment (now disappeared over on the olde Pharyngula) and I just looked on the screen and there it was and the memories jumped from ‘my scout leader was a pervert and I hated cub scouts’ to ‘oh, shit, he raped me!’ Since then I’ve been using this place as sort of an anonymous therapy site.

Sophia @ 297:

How in heck do we get over that little hurdle?

First, we have to find a way to make sure that Real Men™ don’t have to change anything about themselves, what they do, or how they think about other people.

Second, we have to find a way to show that Rape Culture is all the fault of women (because only women get raped) and can be eliminated by changing the behaviour of women.

Third, we redefine rape and rape culture so that it is so narrowly defined that it ceases to exist.

See? Easy. And not one single Manly Man™ needs to be told, “Guys, don’t do that.”

Yes, that was more dark humour.

295. The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical says

zyxw @ 229

My apologies for doing it so badly, this is my first time trying to actually argue this subject on this (or any) forum. I’ll try to frame my argument more clearly in the future.

Thank you, truly, for stopping and considering how to better frame your arguments. A lot of people don’t and I appreciate this.

296. Anri says

Doug Hudson @289:

burgundy@280, hey, if men can have a detachable penis… (/song reference; /inappropriate levity)

Then they’d be Racing Goblins!

(/obscure art book reference)

297. zyxw says

Ogvorbis @ 300 – out of curiosity, how long ago was that (if you don’t mind sharing)?

Reason I ask is that it took me years to even realize that I was molested as a kid.

298. Doug Hudson says

Ogvorbis@300, I needed another disclaimer, saying that of course survivors who do tell their stories are not implying that survivors who don’t should…ack. I’m not even sure how to phrase that.

But it highlights a point that I think should be at the start of every rape related thread: This topic is extremely painful for many people AND extremely hard to talk about, especially online, where we don’t have body language and tone of voice to help discern meaning. No matter how carefully one constructs a post, it is entirely possible, even likely, that at some point one will post something that triggers and/or pisses off someone else. And in that event, the best thing for the poster to do is to take a deep breath and give the person who has been triggered/pissed off the benefit of the doubt. Rape discussions are NOT the place to stand on principle or to play devil’s advocate or any of that philosophical bullshit. Compassion and understanding should be the rule of the day.

Actually, that’s a good rule of thumb for any topic, but it’s especially important for rape topics.

299. zyxw says

Doug @289 – Love that song :) Also, just think how easy it would be to avoid accidentally* raping someone at a party. Have too much to drink, just give your keys and your penis to the bartender and come back for them in the morning.

*no, accidental rape isn’t a thing, lest I be misconstrued.

300. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

I was raped back in 1975 – 77. I slammed up against my failures starting only about 2 or 3 years ago. Prior to that, I just remembered I hated being a cub scout and that my leader was a perv. And yes, I still look at myself as a failure — not for being raped, not for surviving, but for allowing it to continue and what I did to others to please my rapist, for doing things that are beyond the pale of acceptable human behaviour.

301. Doug Hudson says

Anri @ 302, damn! I notice THAT particular goblin type didn’t make it into the movie. Or maybe it did…

(Funny coincidence, I just tracked down a copy of the movie soundtrack this weekend. It certainly is very 80s.)

302. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

Doug Hudson, sorry. I wasn’t trying to imply anything about what you had written. Honest.

Oddly, I find it easier to write about what happened to me here than any other way of discussing it. Well, to be honest, this is the only place I have discussed it in any way, shape or form. But yeah, misunderstandings and emotional responses are part and parcel to these threads.

303. zyxw says

That sucks.

I guess we are about the same age then. I was also in scouts and, fortunately, had a better experience than you. My experience was with someone outside of scouts, actually a member of my extended family.

I actually don’t know (or care) if what happened to me meets the definition of “rape”. Does being told to give a blowjob to another (older) boy count as rape? To me, it doesn’t matter, because it was wrong. The label is irrelevant. The person who did this to me was entirely in the wrong, and it wasn’t my fault. I came to the realization that this is what happened to me when I was in my late 20’s or early 30’s, I forget exactly when now. Anyway, that was at least 10 years ago that I realized that I was, in fact, molested/assaulted/raped, it took me a few more years to realise that it really wasn’t my fault. At the time, I didn’t even know that’s what I was doing. It was framed as a “dare”. What happens when kids are dared to do something? They do it, at least that’s what I did. Even jump off cliffs (I lived near the water).

Caveat on what I just said, sometimes I have to remind myself that it wasn’t my fault. I hope that you can get there also, but it did take a while for me. Entirely anecdotal, YMMV.

304. Doug Hudson says

Ogvorbis@308, I’d apologize for implying that you were implying anything, but we’re dangerously close to a never-ending apology vortex, so I’ll just leave it as assumed. : ) I may need to borrow some of those apologies you have, though, I go through mine so often.

These conversations would be much easier if we could assume good faith, but between harmful ignorance encouraged by the rape culture and the outright malevolence of rape apologists, such assumptions cannot be made. Yet another evil of the patriarchy.

305. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

Safe hugs. Sounds like rape to me.

Have you actually told anyone in meat space?

Doug Hudson:

Yeah, assuming good faith is tough. Just look at the conversations with zyxw on this thread (yeah, I’m singling you out, zyxw, but in a good way. really.). When zyxw first showed up, I tried to read him charitably. But the argument he was making began setting off alarm bells because he was sounding very much like a rape culture apologist. I was wrong (see, told you I was singling you out in a good way) and, though I still disagree with his view on theft, I can see that it was a combination of seeing the argument go bad too many times and an odd way that zyxw made his point.

306. zyxw says

ogvorbis – nope, never told anyone before, not in meatspace or cyberspace. It was pretty hard to actually type that. I might have been able to deal with it better had I gone to someone, but then again given how often the victim gets blamed, maybe not.

Sorry about the odd way I made my point, and thanks for sticking with it and keeping open to my intent. (sorry about the excessive apologies, but I’m Canadian. Its what we do. Fuck, I apologised again.)

307. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

zyxw:

Yeah. I’m still sure that if I told someone in meat space I’d end up hurt. Makes no sense, but that’s what happens.

The people here are brutal, uncompromising, and some of the most caring and supportive people it has been my pleasure to know. You might want to go over to the Lounge and introduce yourself. You had a rough start here but your willingness to actually take a look at your writings from a different point of view is a positive.

I’m heading for bed. Even though I’m laid off, I’m still trying to keep a regular schedule.

308. zyxw and Ogvorbis:

*Appropriate physical gesture of comfort and support*

And to zyxw in specific:

It’s rough when you first realize that something that happened to you was rape. I think I was on this site too the first time I stopped minimizing my own rape and actually acknowledged that what had happened wasn’t some “lesser thing” but was actually a rape and that I was myself a rape survivor instead of just a partner and friend of rape survivors.

And it’s sad and frustrating and angering that there are too many people who can say that about themselves. And even more frustrating all the Thunderf00ts of the world who’d rather we stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it away in order to make themselves feel better about the world they contribute to.

309. @ Doug Hudson #304

Rape discussions are NOT the place to stand on principle or to play devil’s advocate or any of that philosophical bullshit. Compassion and understanding should be the rule of the day.

Yes, yes, a thousand times YES.

This is what I tried to communicate to the Spock-wannabe (though I think Spock would be inwardly cringing at the block o’ text lacking punctuation and grammar). This is NOT a time to insist on “logical responses only, please” and “why are you so emotional?” (as a way to discredit). As you say, those are generally asshole responses, anyway, but especially in the context of a discussion about rape.

Why am I emotional? Because this is fucking triggering, this hurts, but I am participating because a) I have found help and support myself on these forums and b) sometimes, as inadequate as I am, I can help someone else. And y’know what, even if I didn’t have personal experience with this topic, even if I was just a concerned onlooker, a woman in the lucky 75% that managed to get through life (so far) without being raped (though that doesn’t necessarily mean that same 75% has never experienced any form of sexual violence), I would still be upset, reading these comments. Because I have empathy. Frankly, if you can read through these comments without any emotion, I’m not sure I want to know you.

And yeah, I agree with whoever said these comment sections have been like free therapy. (I’m sorry, I went searching again and I can’t find it, now!) Over the last year, I’ve found the different FTB communities to be so helpful and supportive, beyond words, really. Maybe the “price” we have for getting to be part of such a wonderful group is putting up with the asshole gate-crashers who delight in victim-blaming, rape apologia bullshit.

Actually, compared to some threads, this has been rather calm…don’t know if it’s from a more liberal use of the ban hammer, or we’re just lucky. I hate wading though piles of whiny guys trying to educate rape victims on rape–to the point that if the comments get too overrun, I have to bail, because some of the arguments that get made trigger me bad (like, can start a tape on replay in my head of all the vile, blamey shit I tell myself; full, digitally remastered tape on automatic of all the things people have said to me over the years, which can lead to a pretty dark, dangerous place if I don’t catch it soon enough).

(This is the reason I haven’t watched the original Thundefoot vidoeo. It’s also why I couldn’t get through the entire Rebecca Watson video. Even listening to her deconstruct the arguments was too triggering. Ditto for the SomeGreyBloke takedown. Couldn’t do it, as much as I wanted to.)

Also, the people who say, “What can you expect, it’s the internet?” or “Everyone has to deal with trolls; why are you making such a big deal out of it?” and “If you can’t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen!” are just making the Internet Version of “Well, what did you expect, going to a bar?” or “It’s just common sense that you shouldn’t walk around at night.” Just another way to shut women out (or shut them up), lock them up. We don’t live in a society that allows men to keep “their” women shut up in the home, that has rules discouraging women from being in public spheres. You can’t discriminate (legally) against women in the workplace anymore, can’t even go to a golf course without women clamoring to be let in. So they’ll just make the segregation voluntary (uh, for a given value of that word, I guess): scare women away from being out in the evenings; going to events where men are drinking and having fun, relaxing with friends; publicly blame and shame women who are assaulted so other women will learn from her example; harass and bully, pull out all the stops, do everything in your power to scare, annoy, hurt, injure, and/or frustrate women to the point that they will no longer participate online in “male” spaces (“male”=whatever the boys decide they like that day). Or just support those that do. It’s a winning strategy, unfortunately. But it’s important to understand the widespread consequences of victim blaming and rape apologia in a rape culture.

But all in all, I have to say, the FTB community is amazing. A great deal of the praise goes to the amazing bloggers, of course (and the people who chose them). To the commenters who have volunteered their time to police the threads and keep them as safe (and productive) as possible. And the many people whose comments educate, inspire, and support. <3.

310. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

I was going to snark at the theft analogy people, but I see that there is no need.
It isn’t easy to talk about rape without getting tangled in the crap that rape culture foists on everyone. Even when you know about it and try to rethink it, you may find yourself sliding into the old ways of thought or triggering someone because you seem to be sliding.
I am actually encouraged today, seeing 300+ comments and so much said that helps get at the dimwittery under discussion.
I also want to thank the people who came forward to talk about having been raped. Thanks for showing such courage. It is something to be admired, indeed.

311. says

I’ve never had anything stolen from me since.

So you think I deserve to be robbed?

312. says

Seriously I fucking don’t see why this is so hard for people.

People should be able to trust they won’t be robbed or raped or assaulted. If they are in danger of that the second they have a lapse of judgement then THAT is a problem. Accepting that “derp well that’s how it is” is fucking atrocious.

313. zyxw says

I thought we weren’t supposed to be continuing on with the non-rape analogies, but anyway, briefly (because I’m going to bed and it is off topic.)

Robbery and theft are not the same thing. My attitude towards robbery is different than theft. Please try to look at what I actually say, and not what you think I’ve said. With that, I’ve said enough. I’m not going into robbery or other forms of assault.

314. Rey Fox says

Just stop, okay?

315. zyxw

If you take the position that a woman can take precautions to prevent rapes, then, by definition, you are claiming that if a woman does not take those precautions and gets raped, it is partially her fault. Please forgive the analogy, but this is somewhat analogous to something like theft. If you don’t lock your car doors and someone walks off with your laptop that you left in plain view on the front seat, then you are partially responsible. It seems to me that insurance companies hold the same view, if you fail to adequately secure your belongings, then they have grounds to deny or reduce your claim, because you have contributed to the circumstances that allowed the theft to happen.

No, really, no.
As others have mentioned, rape isn’t property theft. Please never ever use that analogy.
And you’re getting an important detail wrong: The duties I have as an owner so the insurance will cover my ass are conditions that are part of a contract between people. They have no bearing whatsoever on the morality or legality of the deed. It isn’t any less theft in a criminal sense because it was a crime of opportunity. There is no partial moral or legal responsibility.
Also, all those “things women can do to prevent rape”?
A) We’re already following many of them as well as we can.
B) Many of them are based on massive amounts of privilege. Don’t walk home after dark? Yeah, that’s much easier to do when you have a car. Don’t walk through “bad neighbourhoods”. Yeah, that’s pretty hard to follow if you live there.
C) Many of them are impossible to follow if you want to have any kind of life. Networking while having a drink woth potential clients? Yeah, that means drinking alcohol in the presence of strange men. And there’s nothing I can do to prevent somebody from targetting me when I leave work at 9pm short of giving up.
D) To go back to your “child’s stuff nicked” example: Exactly this happened to my daughter at school. Her plushie was stolen and a woman was quick to tell her that she mustn’t take such a thing to school. Really, she was asking to have it stolen. But tell you what, she also had two pairs of shoes stolen from that very place, shoes she has to have there. Looks like the problem isn’t that she leaves her stuff lying around but that somebody’s stealing her stuff.

I have a \$1500 camera. If I leave it unattended on a park bench, and it gets stolen, I HAVE contributed to the loss, because I have a reasonable belief that someone will come along and steal it.

Got it, so I should not be alone on a parkbench or I should expect to be raped. Seriously, this is beyond stupid. I am not a thing the rightful owner leaves unattended. Can you give me ONE, ONE example of reasonable behaviour by women that demonstrably reduces their risk of being raped?

Sophia @ 286 – if in any way I have given the impression that I think vaginas are property, I apologize

You’re constantly comparing rape to having things stolen and then act surprised when people are offended by it?

When I left something in a public place and it was stolen, she certainly told me it was my own damned fault. Guess what, I never did it again, and I’ve never had anything stolen from me since.

How shitty of her. And how shitty of you to assume that the fact of you never having anything stolen is due to you being extra special smart. Hey, I have never been raped! But you know what? I have done all the things people keep telling me I mustn’t do to prevent rape.
And as others have mentioned: Even if following something that prevents me from being raped, it doesn’t prevent rape. It just means somebody else gets raped. Because rape is not a crime of opportunity. I can prevent walking through a “bad neighbourhood” because I can afford a good one. The poor woman cannot.

I’m sorry about what happened to you.

Erin

And y’know what, even if I didn’t have personal experience with this topic, even if I was just a concerned onlooker, a woman in the lucky 75% that managed to get through life (so far) without being raped (though that doesn’t necessarily mean that same 75% has never experienced any form of sexual violence), I would still be upset, reading these comments.

Absolutely. I’m so far one of the lucky 75% (but I aten’t dead yet), but I had my share of assault, more or less serious and I once escaped barely. But one of the most scary things was to finally realize that it was not my achievement that I’m not in the 25%

316. Gileill @321

Insurance companies suck and want to get out of paying what they owe.

Of course an insurance company is going to try and argue that you are “partially liable” for a theft if they are offering theft insurance. They are also going to try and argue that you are “partially liable” for a fire or a flood or an earthquake if you have those insurances and will try and dick you around through the various loopholes or straight up fantasies about your culpability if they think it’ll get you to back down and rescind your claim or you try and stand up and get what you are owed for buying their scam service.

It’s how they operate. Doesn’t make it fucking true.

And frankly, on top of the usual arguments of why the metaphor of theft for rape is all manner of fucked up, there’s also this point that needs to be made.

I always see this suburban fear based classist, racist (yeah, one guess on what the person using this phrase imagines the dominant skin color being in the “bad neighborhood” and what immediate visual indicator can be used for determining what a “bad neighborhood” looks like) bullshit trotted out in shit like this and it makes me want to scream.

Avoiding the presence of black or poor people doesn’t actually make you immune or even reduce the chance that some fucker is going to make off with your stuff. It doesn’t reduce the chance that you will be assaulted. Or raped. Or grow up in a home where you are beaten every night. Or raped.

I’ve lived in the whitest of white suburbia and places where I was nearly the only white face around. And the only difference between the two in terms of what occurred was the former was more hypocritical and was so overly concerned with “showing face” that it hid it all behind closed doors and pretended that nothing like that could happen here because “this was a good neighborhood”. Fuck that neighborhood had drug gang wars that all the suburbanites pretended wasn’t real because those things happen in “bad neighborhoods doncha know”. At least the “bad neighborhoods” acknowledged the shit that was happening. What was real. The good and the bad.

I’ll take that any day over the week over covering your bullshit with the rug and pretending the smell is coming from the poor kid.

317. Cerberus

Avoiding the presence of black or poor people doesn’t actually make you immune or even reduce the chance that some fucker is going to make off with your stuff. It doesn’t reduce the chance that you will be assaulted. Or raped. Or grow up in a home where you are beaten every night. Or raped.

Absofuckinglutly.
And it further means that white middle and upper-class people can get away with a hell lot of abuse. Because whenever a rich or famous or powerful guy is accused, the default reaction is “she’s lying, why should he rape, he can get all the sex he wants”. Strauss-Kahn anybody?
Date-raped by a nice middle-class guy? Must be “regretted sex” because nice guys don’t rape.
That bullshit about rape in Scandinavia the resident islamophobes usually pull? The very link Condell once gave in a video let to a page by amnesty international where they complain about the fact that unless the accused rapist is an immigrant women have a hard time being believed.

318. homosapiensapien says

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but TL;DR all for this thread. That said did anybody else’s jaw hit the keyboard when he (thunderfoot) actually said at 46:50 that﻿ something other than a rapist raping causes rape? That’s it game over. He is a rape apologist just like the rapists in prison that he mentions a few minutes later.

319. Gileill @323

Yes, this!

There were so many households in neighborhoods near me where abuse was happening every fucking night, loud enough for the neighbors to hear that everyone just pretended they didn’t know because they so desperately wanted to maintain the illusion that “that sort of thing couldn’t happen here”. At my rich ass white school, they actually had an ambulance hide in a corner so they could remove the person who tried to kill themselves on campus without anyone noticing and if I didn’t happen to wander past that disused alley at the right moment, maybe no one would have. Appearances uber alles.

And the way that denialism is used to argue that it just doesn’t happen with those skin colors or income brackets is just disgusting.

And yeah, as you said, the whole way it’s just ignored that crimes of power are going to probably occur from those with more power towards those with less in order to pretend that it’s those with less who are the “lawless” ones who need to have their freedoms curbed.

320. Doug Hudson says

zyxw@319, if I may share a lesson that I learned the hard way–sometimes it’s better just to drop it. Especially on sensitive topics like this one. Just let it go. You made a post, it didn’t come across the way you intended–oh well. So it goes. Just apologize for poor wording and move on.

Otherwise, things just get nastier, and ultimately you find yourself banned, or at least unable to post at a site out of pure shame. Ahem.

321. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

Erin @315:

(like, can start a tape on replay in my head of all the vile, blamey shit I tell myself; full, digitally remastered tape on automatic of all the things people have said to me over the years, which can lead to a pretty dark, dangerous place if I don’t catch it soon enough).

Hugs to you, Erin.

I’ve converted mine to mp3 format. I never (still) told anyone in meatspace, but that recording blaming me goes strong. Last night was . . . not good.

zyxw @319:

Robbery and theft are not the same thing. My attitude towards robbery is different than theft. Please try to look at what I actually say, and not what you think I’ve said. With that, I’ve said enough. I’m not going into robbery or other forms of assault.

Just a hint. Rape threads are the worst possible place to get hung up on legal nitpickery.

322. zyxw says

Giliell @ 321 – Leaving the theft / insurance stuff aside, because I agree that is a derail of the thread, I actually agree with everything you said, 100%. I’m shutting up now lest my poor word choices lead to further misunderstanding.

and again, apologies for any misunderstandings.

323. zyxw says

Cerberus @322 – “fuck the bad neighborhood argument” again, poor word choice on my part. That isn’t what I was trying to get at, I had other things in mind. Shutting up now.

324. zyxw
Thank you

325. Louis says

I left my mountain lion on a park bench in a bad neighbourhood. Does that mean I deserved to be attacked by wasps?

Louis

326. zyxw says

only if you weren’t wearing a hardhat.

327. says

Thunderf00t makes one of his typical clueless metaphors: that there’s something about women’s behavior that is like wearing a hardhat in a construction area.

Has Thunderfart ever actually SEEN a real construction area? If he had, he’d know that the hardhat doesn’t make you 100% safe! It reduces your probability of being killed by falling objects — but it doesn’t reduce that probability to zero, because there’s plenty of objects that will kill you if they fall on you regardless of what you’re wearing. So actually, Thunderfart’s “construction area” analogy is a pretty good one — and it shows how totally full of shit he is.

And WTF is that “equation” supposed to mean? Is Thunderfart saying the probability of rape is determined by MULTIPLYING all those factors together? In that case, all a woman has to do is reduce ONE of the factors on her side to zero, and her probability of getting raped automatically goes to zero. And in the real world, we all know it doesn’t work that way. Thunderfart’s equation is even dumber than Republican grade-school budget math.

328. zyxw says

– You’re correct, it isn’t. It certainly isn’t good advice for rape prevention, for a lot of reasons.

“the hardhat doesn’t make you 100% safe!”

– I don’t think Tfool was actually making that claim, but the analogy fails for other reasons (like, for example, falling objects aren’t actually seeking out victims).

329. BTW, there are actually factors that increase a woman’s risk to be a victim of rape. Those are all things that are usually beyond a woman’s control and make her especially vulnerable and lacking legal and social support like being mentally ill, disabled, an addict, member of a marginalized minority, an illegal immigrant etc. And the fact that they are overproportionally affected shows that rapists actually don’t give a shit about “body language” or “clothing” and instead pay special attention on how likely that woman is to report him and get any kind of support.

330. says

Louis

I left my mountain lion on a park bench in a bad neighbourhood. Does that mean I deserved to be attacked by wasps?

By wasps or by hordes of women in wasp-suits. I’m not too sure, having become somewhat lost in the Maze Of Analogous Doom by that point.

331. Guest Speaker says

Probability of getting beat up = (AxBxCxDxExF)xGxH

Where the factors in brackets weenies control, and the factors not in brackets the bullies control.

(Controlled by weenies:)
A = glasses
B = ponytail
C = big mouth
D = skinny
E = dress like douche bag
F = foreign accent

Controlled by big bullies:
G = big muscles
H = easily annoyed

So yup, according to his formula, Thunderf00t must deserve it whenever he gets his regular ass-kicking.

* I don’t advocate violence. This is merely to show how silly his argument is…

332. smhll says

@299, I still want to emphasize what I think is wrong with your original statement, but appreciate you clarifying and taking parts of it back.

Both with me … teach me it is wrong to steal, but also protect my shit because not everyone else shares that value. When I left something in a public place and it was stolen, she certainly told me it was my own damned fault. Guess what, I never did it again, and I’ve never had anything stolen from me since.

One more reason that the ‘theft’ analogy to rape is problematic is that women don’t get raped because they leave their vaginas in the driveway all night. (Which is where my brother left his bicycle.)

Except when we are asleep or perhaps unconscious, no victims (any gender) are leaving their body parts around unsupervised or unlocked.

The analogy sucks. And it’s confusing! The last time we had a guy here saying that when he parks downtown he hides his valuables. I thought he (ridiculously) meant that I should lock my vaginal in the trunk. But, in hindsight, I think he meant I should grab a tarp from the trunk and wrap it over my cleavage. As I said, confusing!

333. FelixBC says

Thunderf00t’s latest tweets are a sight to behold:

Im sure that these ‘social justice keyboard warriors’ are just itching to dismiss my argument because of ‘reason privilege’.

Part of me feels desperation in their utterly disproportionate response……..

part of me wants to keep pushing as its clear the reasoned argument is hitting a very tender spot for them…

part of me tires of the endless stream of shit being thrown at me… no matter how baseless…

and part of me takes pleasure (n smiles quietly) at their apoplectic shit slinging rage,all induced by the ‘slow blade’ o reasoned argument.

Is it just me or is he getting off on the idea of penetrating his critics’ bodies?

334. zenlike says

RE: Thunderf00t’s Tweets:

Dear Thunderf00t,

Your arguments aren’t ‘dismissed’, they are destroyed by better counter-arguments, backed by data. That’s how debates go. Please stop. You are starting to sound exactly like the creationists you debated for years.

Sincerely,

a social justice keyboard warrior, apparently

Excellent points, Horde! And some new ones which I am going to use with appreciation.

As far as reducing one factor to zero, I’ve been wishing lately that there were comfortable (leather? silicone?) vulva-protection belts that women could wear to discourage rapists. It is only a personal solution, though: like putting two locks on your bicycle, if you are lucky it turns them to another target. It would also have the advantage that a woman wouldn’t have to give any sign to co-workers that she was taking precautions. I would give them out to women who wanted to feel safer. Unfortunately, it would probably result in physical instead of sexual assault.

I agree that rapists’ rationalizations are exculpatory and come with a huge dose of projection.

I do feel that we should try the Golda Meir solution and every time that women are told to stay in at night, we should suggest that men stay in at night so as not to give rapists cover.

336. says

Im sure that these ‘social justice keyboard warriors’ are just itching to dismiss my argument because of ‘reason privilege’.

Such a thing would require you to exhibit reason, jackass.

part of me tires of the endless stream of shit being thrown at me… no matter how baseless…

Stop saying stupid shit and we will forget about you, I promise.

The real problem with the various “vagina lock” devices that have been proposed over the years is that for many rapists, if you make them angry–and finding out they can’t get access would make them very angry–it might entice them to kill you. It’s why women are advised to not fight back if they feel their lives are in danger. The goal is to make it out alive. As my rape advocate said the night I was raped: “You survived. That’s the only thing that matters. Don’t let anyone ever tell you differently.”

338. Erin

The real problem with the various “vagina lock” devices that have been proposed over the years is that for many rapists, if you make them angry–and finding out they can’t get access would make them very angry–it might entice them to kill you.

It’s not only that. It’s also this idea that rape requires a penis and a vagina when it can be done without either. Actually, German law doesn’t recognise “rape” as such. There is grave sexual assault and what is commonly known as rape is one of the possibilities to commit grave sexual assault.

339. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

but the analogy fails for other reasons (like, for example, falling objects aren’t actually seeking out victims).

You’ve obviously never been in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

340. says

part of me wants to keep pushing as its clear the reasoned argument is hitting a very tender spot for them…

In other words, this guy is just another loser who does whatever he can to make people angry, then takes that anger as vindication and tries to incite more of it, because that’s the only power he has over anyone. And isn’t that kinda similar to some rapists’ motivations?

341. smhll says

Well, I cackled when I read this shit….. “all induced by the ‘slow blade’ o reasoned argument.”

So foolish.

342. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

Reasoned argument? *snicker*
What is needed is not reasoned argument based on idiotology. What is needed is evidenced arguments, which have been and are sorely lacking from those who can’t stand being told “you shouldn’t do that”.

343. Jackie teh kitteh cuddler says

So this is Phil’s response to the annihilation of his bullshit?

Im sure that these ‘social justice keyboard warriors’ are just itching to dismiss my argument because of ‘reason privilege’.

Part of me feels desperation in their utterly disproportionate response……..

part of me wants to keep pushing as its clear the reasoned argument is hitting a very tender spot for them…

part of me tires of the endless stream of shit being thrown at me… no matter how baseless…

and part of me takes pleasure (n smiles quietly) at their apoplectic shit slinging rage,all induced by the ‘slow blade’ o reasoned argument.

Here’s what I see in his tweets. : Those silly rape survivors and their tender emotions, I showed them. I stuck the blade of blame in slow and smiled when it hurt them. I ignored their facts, logic and lived experiences and called it “shit”. I’m so eff’n awesome.

344. says

Jackie: Yeah, getting our attention is Thunderfart’s only accomplishment, so that’s what he’s calling a “victory.” And let’s face it: the only reason anyone is paying attention to this Youtube troll, and not one of the other ten-thousand-odd cranks with a webcam, is because he’s the Youtube troll some of us paid attention to before. He’s famous for being famous, sort of like Paris Hilton but uglier and less intelligent.

345. says

Uh. Three days it took before I caught up with this. And I think I have something to say. Yet I might be talking bullshit here, since I am not as well read or experienced about this problematic as most of pharyngula readers. If what I write contains some eggregious error, let me know. I am writing more or less from my experience and observance (I withessed further mentioned phenomenon at my workplace in last few years multiple times), I did not read any scientific studies with regard to this:

I think there is a valid analogy that could be used to describe rape. That of workplace abuse – mobbing, bossing. In fact I think this analogy is too good for being usefull to explain something to the likes of Thunderf00t.

Workplace abuse can occur in virtually any working environment and there is no way to know beforehand if it will be there or not. Workplace abuse is dealt with via criminal law and workplace policy, yet is terribly underreported. It is mostly perpetrated by those who are privileged and (think) they could get away with it on those less so. Abusers are mostly carefull enough to act in such a way, that it is harder to prove. They choose their victims carefully and rationalize their choice with ad-hoc scenarios. They are in full controll of the situation and abused can do virtually nothing to escape/prevent it without damage/discomfort to themselves. The burden of proof lies on the abused, therefore many do not bother to report. Because the abusers are mostly those in position of privilege/power, abused have trouble to be believed even when they have indisputable evidence or vitnesses at hand. And those who break down from such abuse are later blamed for it by libertarians and similar assholes because they ” are weak, hysterical, playing the victim card, cannot take the heat, shoulda know better than to work there, shoulda fight back harder…”

That is why I think this analogy is so good as to be useless for talking with assholes. Because it is analogous not only in how, by whom and to whom it happens, it is analogous also in how it is perceived by clueless privileged and/or libertarian and/or assholes.

346. samharris says

347. says

And Thunderfoot is banned from this blog, right?

First I’ve heard of it. To my knowledge, Thunderfuck has never posted here since he was canned as a blogger.

348. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

And Thunderfoot is banned from this blog, right?

Nope, another lie by the misogynist crowd they keep repeating ad nauseum. TF could post here at Pharyngula anytime.

What he can’t do is have his own blog under FtB auspices.

349. says

Assuming #352 is, in fact, Sam Harris:

Sam, your blog doesn’t allow comments, so far as I can tell. How do you manage to talk when you have no room to do so?

Even if Thunderf00t were banned here, he’d have the entire rest of the Internet in which to respond to this “bashing.” He has no right to “impede” it regardless.

But I guess uninformed bigots gotta stick together, right? Why between your racial-but-no-I-swear-it’s-not-racial profiling and his tips to not actually stop rape, it’s like a smorgasbord of common sense responses that fall apart in light of reality. Science!

350. samharris:

And Thunderfoot is banned from this blog, right?

No, Tfoot is not banned here, nor anywhere else on FTB that I’m aware of, not that Tfoot has ever bothered to make one fucking comment. That’s a whole different problem, which highlights his inability to defend his idiocy. Not only is he unable to make a valid argument, he knows he can’t back up his pile of nonsense, which is why yootube is an excellent format for him. His attempt at blogging here didn’t work out well when he had people showing up in comments, challenging said nonsense.

351. says

And no, that is not Sam Harris. Banned for impersonation.

352. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

. . . part of me wants to keep pushing as its clear the reasoned argument is hitting a very tender spot for them . . .

Yeah, Thunderfoot, a very tender spot. Those of us who are survivors do tend to have a tender spot. When someone makes the argument that what I did was part of why I was raped, it does hit a tender spot — right in the spot where the self-blaming, the guilt, the self-inflicted pain. The reason it is a tender spot has nothing to do with it being a good argument, or a reasoned argument.

353. stephen5000 says

In my very humble opinion, Thunderf00t is an excellent Youtuber.

Of course there are instances where a victim of rape could not have done anything to avoid being raped. And of course, in every instance of rape, the victim is fundamentally not at fault. Does that mean that people can never do anything to lessen their chances of being raped? No, of course not.

I think that thunderf00t’s fake equation is a bit silly, but it actually does make a clear point. He’s simply saying that in many cases victims have the ability to minimize their risk. People are dynamic, and situations involving rape are similarly dynamic; listing specific variables that apply to each possible instance of rape would be impossible.

The video you appear to be responding to lists many examples of his point:

Construction workers being asked to wear hard hats isn’t blaming construction workers for accidents involving head injury.
Tourists being asked to avoid pickpockets isn’t blaming victims of theft for being pick-pocketed.

I think this makes sense. Shouldn’t people be aware of when they’re at any kind of risk? Recognizing risk factors is not the same as blaming victims, and the same goes for victims of rape. Predators exist, and that needs to be acknowledged. It has nothing to do with blame.

“Again, we’re missing specifics. So women aren’t supposed to dress attractively? The whole world is sending women signals that they’re supposed to care about their appearance, and dress beautifully and apply makeup, and when men get together to mansplain how to avoid rape, their answer is…be less attractive.”

Thunderf00t isn’t the whole world, he also doesn’t represent men in general…if other people are telling women to dress or act a certain way, that certainly has nothing to do with Thunderf00t. Furthermore, Thunderf00t’s argument appears to be asking women to use good, circumstantially appropriate judgment. Who is Thunderf00t to list specifics about what women should do, he is a man after all.

If you’re a young attractive women, and you do things such as travel alone, get drunk, and dress in a revealing way, the very unfortunate reality is that you’re putting yourself at increased risk of being targeted by predators. Is that incorrect? How is that incorrect? What is wrong with acknowledging that? Again, to be crystal clear, the rapists are still the bad-guys in this situation.

Maybe “rape culture” has something to do with it. But I think that as long as men have a natural drive to procreate there will be assholes who don’t understand the consequences of their actions and will victimize others.

“We’re still guessing at what factor C might be. Thunderf00t makes one of his typical clueless metaphors: that there’s something about women’s behavior that is like wearing a hardhat in a construction area. ”

– PZ Myers

The similarity is only intended to be on which party could have taken action to protect themselves. Hardhats aren’t similar to how women behave. Hardhats are also not in any way similar to watching out for pick pockets…

“Every woman in the world would love to know what simple defensive measure they can take to prevent all forms of rape.”
-PZ Myers

Did thunderf00t say there was one specific thing ALL women could do? He absolutely didn’t. Again, he’s asking women to use their intelligence and appropriately asses the risks involved in whatever actions they choose to make.

“What he doesn’t address at all is the fundamental unfairness. Everyone, men, women, bosses, workers, wears a hardhat at a construction site. We don’t single out some group and say their heads are especially fragile so they need special protection. But we blithely assume that it is entirely reasonable to demand that women live with heightened risk.”
-PZ Myers

That is probably because every person on a construction site actually *does* have a similarly fragile head. In cars, infants ride in baby seats, and young children don’t sit in the front seat of the car. It isn’t ageism, it’s appropriate precaution. Similarly, women are statistically at a higher risk of being raped, and that’s just the unfortunate reality of the situation. That isn’t to say that men shouldn’t asses risk factors as well.

“My wife mentioned a simple example to me: she’d never walk into a parking garage alone late at night. And that’s a reasonable precaution she takes all the time. But think about it: if men had special reason to fear the security at a particular parking area, we’d be demanding more police patrols, greater video surveillance, that steps be taken to reduce the danger. But women? Heck, that’s just a consequence of their being the “weaker sex”, they need to adapt to deal with it.”
– PZ Myers

First of all, yes, your wife is taking reasonable precaution. Second of all, what interesting (completely unfounded) speculation about what men would do. I avoid traveling alone in certain areas because I don’t want to be mugged. Surveillance and increased law enforcement are both good things. Saying it’s important to be careful doesn’t tacitly state that it isn’t also important for law enforcement to do their job.

“Can you even image the reaction if people at a workplace were told that the company parking garage was risky, so you men need to partner up when you walk out to your car? Outrage and demands that the company fix the problem right now” -PZ Myers

I can imagine that, and yes, it would be appropriate to ask for action to be taken to address the problem. Can you imagine putting up signs asking people to wear hardhats to protect themselves?

Thunderf00t is very clearly not saying that anybody deserves to be raped. What he’s saying is simply that people should take steps to protect themselves. Maybe his argument is wrong or has flaws, but you aren’t actually responding to that argument; you’re putting words into Thunderf00t’s mouth. Your interpretation of his video seems almost deliberately wrong.

If you can’t objectively consider the opinions of somebody you disagree with, you aren’t free thinking, guys.

This article, which is responding to a specific video, doesn’t even list the video it’s responding to by name. Don’t you see a problem with that? For anybody who is actually interested, the video title is:

‘Feminist logic’ Stay Safe = YOU DESERVE RAPE!.

As a general rule of thumb, you don’t actually know who’s right unless you hear BOTH sides of an argument. Even if Thunderf00t is completely wrong, refusal to listen to all aspects of his argument from their original source, makes you nonobjective. Considering even the arguments of people who are wrong is still beneficial to furthering your understanding.

What do you have against institutionalized religion if it isn’t that it suppresses dissenting ideas? The more I read this article and responses, the more I’m personally reminded of why I hate religion so much.

354. stephen5000 says

In my very humble opinion, Thunderf00t is an excellent Youtuber.

Of course there are instances where a victim of rape could not have done anything to avoid being raped. And of course, in every instance of rape, the victim is fundamentally not at fault. Does that mean that people can never do anything to lessen their chances of being raped? No, of course not.

I think that thunderf00t’s fake equation is a bit silly, but it actually does make a clear point. He’s simply saying that in many cases victims have the ability to minimize their risk. People are dynamic, and situations involving rape are similarly dynamic; listing specific variables that apply to each possible instance of rape would be impossible.

The video you appear to be responding to lists many examples of his point:

Construction workers being asked to wear hard hats isn’t blaming construction workers for accidents involving head injury.
Tourists being asked to avoid pickpockets isn’t blaming victims of theft for being pick-pocketed.

I think this makes sense. Shouldn’t people be aware of when they’re at any kind of risk? Recognizing risk factors is not the same as blaming victims, and the same goes for victims of rape. Predators exist, and that needs to be acknowledged. It has nothing to do with blame.

“Again, we’re missing specifics. So women aren’t supposed to dress attractively? The whole world is sending women signals that they’re supposed to care about their appearance, and dress beautifully and apply makeup, and when men get together to mansplain how to avoid rape, their answer is…be less attractive.”

Thunderf00t isn’t the whole world, he also doesn’t represent men in general…if other people are telling women to dress or act a certain way, that certainly has nothing to do with Thunderf00t. Furthermore, Thunderf00t’s argument appears to be asking women to use good, circumstantially appropriate judgment. Who is Thunderf00t to list specifics about what women should do, he is a man after all.

If you’re a young attractive women, and you do things such as travel alone, get drunk, and dress in a revealing way, the very unfortunate reality is that you’re putting yourself at increased risk of being targeted by predators. Is that incorrect? How is that incorrect? What is wrong with acknowledging that? Again, to be crystal clear, the rapists are still the bad-guys in this situation.

Maybe “rape culture” has something to do with it. But I think that as long as men have a natural drive to procreate there will be assholes who don’t understand the consequences of their actions and will victimize others.

“We’re still guessing at what factor C might be. Thunderf00t makes one of his typical clueless metaphors: that there’s something about women’s behavior that is like wearing a hardhat in a construction area. ”

– PZ Myers

The similarity is only intended to be on which party could have taken action to protect themselves. Hardhats aren’t similar to how women behave. Hardhats are also not in any way similar to watching out for pick pockets…

“Every woman in the world would love to know what simple defensive measure they can take to prevent all forms of rape.”
-PZ Myers

Did thunderf00t say there was one specific thing ALL women could do? He absolutely didn’t. Again, he’s asking women to use their intelligence and appropriately asses the risks involved in whatever actions they choose to make.

“What he doesn’t address at all is the fundamental unfairness. Everyone, men, women, bosses, workers, wears a hardhat at a construction site. We don’t single out some group and say their heads are especially fragile so they need special protection. But we blithely assume that it is entirely reasonable to demand that women live with heightened risk.”
-PZ Myers

That is probably because every person on a construction site actually *does* have a similarly fragile head. In cars, infants ride in baby seats, and young children don’t sit in the front seat of the car. It isn’t ageism, it’s appropriate precaution. Similarly, women are statistically at a higher risk of being raped, and that’s just the unfortunate reality of the situation. That isn’t to say that men shouldn’t asses risk factors as well.

“My wife mentioned a simple example to me: she’d never walk into a parking garage alone late at night. And that’s a reasonable precaution she takes all the time. But think about it: if men had special reason to fear the security at a particular parking area, we’d be demanding more police patrols, greater video surveillance, that steps be taken to reduce the danger. But women? Heck, that’s just a consequence of their being the “weaker sex”, they need to adapt to deal with it.”
– PZ Myers

First of all, yes, your wife is taking reasonable precaution. Second of all, what interesting (completely unfounded) speculation about what men would do. I avoid traveling alone in certain areas because I don’t want to be mugged. Surveillance and increased law enforcement are both good things. Saying it’s important to be careful doesn’t tacitly state that it isn’t also important for law enforcement to do their job.

“Can you even image the reaction if people at a workplace were told that the company parking garage was risky, so you men need to partner up when you walk out to your car? Outrage and demands that the company fix the problem right now” -PZ Myers

I can imagine that, and yes, it would be appropriate to ask for action to be taken to address the problem. Can you imagine putting up signs asking people to wear hardhats to protect themselves?

Thunderf00t is very clearly not saying that anybody deserves to be raped. What he’s saying is simply that people should take steps to protect themselves. Maybe his argument is wrong or has flaws, but you aren’t actually responding to that argument; you’re putting words into Thunderf00t’s mouth. Your interpretation of his video seems almost deliberately wrong.

If you can’t objectively consider the opinions of somebody you disagree with, you aren’t free thinking, guys.

This article, which is responding to a specific video, doesn’t even list the video it’s responding to by name. Don’t you see a problem with that? For anybody who is actually interested, the video title is:

‘Feminist logic’ Stay Safe = YOU DESERVE RAPE!.

As a general rule of thumb, you don’t actually know who’s right unless you hear BOTH sides of an argument. Even if Thunderf00t is completely wrong, refusal to listen to all aspects of his argument from their original source, makes you nonobjective. Considering even the arguments of people who are wrong is still beneficial to furthering your understanding.

What do you have against institutionalized religion if it isn’t that it suppresses dissenting ideas? The more I read this article and its responses, the more I’m personally reminded of why I hate religion so much.

355. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

Does that mean that people can never do anything to lessen their chances of being raped? No, of course not.

Instead of presenting unsupported OPINION, why don’t you show with evidence from sources like Google Scholar that these preventative measures actually work effectively. Why is it Thunderfoot and his apologists never show evidence?

Like that presented by TF, just another vapid irrelevant evidenceless argument, meaning nothing.

356. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

Does that mean that people can never do anything to lessen their chances of being raped? No, of course not.

I was nine years old. I was raped, repeatedly, for a period of two years by my scout leader. The other adult for our pack would take the rest of the pack out for a three hour hike to give him alone time with me. Or another scout. I told and was punished, and raped again, for telling.

So what are these magic rape prevention tips that would have prevented me being raped? What should I have done?

Be specific. This is not a rhetorical question.

357. stephen5000

Why are you not addressing Blunmderbutt’s contention that teaching boys and men about consent so that they will have a clearer idea of what rape is, is a waste of time?

FYI every woman I know already takes precautions and assesses situations for riskiness. It’s not like the lesson Blunderbutt wants to pound home here isn’t something they didn’t already know. Oh, and when this risk-assessment/avoidance strategy gets formalised as Schroedinger’s Rapist, the exact-same clueless fuckers who hate the “teach men how not to rape” approach vilify it as an argument that all men are regarded as probable-rapists. WTF?

358. A family member started raping me when I was 3 years old. Let’s hear the laundry list of proper preventative behaviour for three year olds, shall we? Or in lieu of that, you could just take a long, long walk, stephen5000, as you are bringing nothing new to the table, obviously don’t know what you’re talking about, and…

359. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

‘Feminist logic’ Stay Safe = YOU DESERVE RAPE!.

No one has ever said that.

What we have been saying is:

1. Why do you think women are idiots who do not already take every precaution they can think of?

2. Every one of your precautions tells women, tells the victim, what they should, or should not do, even though every rape is different and the only thing that they have in common is someone who decides to commit the crime of rape.

3. By focusing on what the victim did, or did not do, it sets the survivor (or the dead victim) up for the police, the courts, the family, the church, the friends, all asking did you do this? why did you do that? which blames the victim for the crime.

4. Every one of your precautions limits the freedoms of women effectively making them second-class citizens.

5. No one, ever, has been able to come up with a list of these magical things that women should do to prevent being raped that actually does anything but limit women’s freedom as human beings.

6. For all of recorded history, women have been told what to do, or what not to do, so they won’t get raped and for all of recorded history, women have been raped. Maybe its time we change the tactic and focus on the rapists?

And the fact that I had to list this shows that you have read nothing.

360. stephen5000 says

Thanks for the responses everybody.

To the people saying things along the lines of I was raped as a child”, that’s horrible. And you clearly could not have done anything to prevent that. You were just children. I addressed the fact that many people have absolutely no ability to prevent being victims n my first paragraph, actually.

Thunderf00t is just saying that when you can distinguish risks, you should consider them. I agree with that.

@Daz I can only assume that by “blunderbutt”, you mean thunderf00t. I never noticed Thunderf00t saying teaching consent was a waste of time. I would disagree with that. I don’t think Thunderf00t ever made that statement, but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if people chose to interpret something he said that way. Sounds like an asinine straw-man to me…

361. says

You have been fucked off, stephen5000. Go hang out with your pal Thunderf00t and gnaw on some legs.

362. Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! says

To the people saying things along the lines of I was raped as a child”, that’s horrible. And you clearly could not have done anything to prevent that.

But we have you, and Thunderfoot, and hundreds of others who insist that taking precautions prevent rapes. Yet no one, ever, has shown any precaution that will actually prevent a rape, including mine.

You were just children.

Take your condescension and stuff it. You were just children. You are just a woman. You are just a Jew. You were just a victim. You have no fucking idea how much that hurts, do you? You really don’t understand how othering and minimizing cause real pain to survivors, do you? You just sit there in your steaming heap of privilege and tell me, and Caine, that were were ‘just children’ as if that, somehow, means something other than either claiming we are not human or minimizing what happened. How dare you?

Thunderf00t is just saying that when you can distinguish risks, you should consider them.

And what are these risks? Don’t drink? Don’t expose any skin? Don’t drive? Don’t go out without a chaperone? Don’t join Cub Scouts? Don’t have relatives? Don’t be at home? Don’t leave your home? You do know that women in Saudi Arabia are raped, right? You know that women in every culture get raped, right? You know that men and children are raped in every culture, right? What is your magic algorithm that will allow every human to assess risk? And why do you, and Thunderfoot, and every other rape apologist focus on what the victim did, or didn’t do, rather than the decision of a human being to commit the crime of rape?

363. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

There is free thought, and there is freethought. Related, not the same.

But okay, free thinkers respond to bad speech with more speech, not with censorship. Curiously enough, Tf00t made his video and AFAIK it’s still up.

PZ and the Horde have responded with speech of their own.

364. Fernando Rivera

“Not offering a platform” ≠ “censorship”

“Free thinker” is not a synonym for “freethinker.”

Do try to keep up, old chap.

365. Rey Fox says

No matter how tedious it is?

366. says

Whenever someone shows up touting the benefits of considering “ALL” ideas without proffering any specific benefits of any specific idea, I get suspicious.

Usually it turns out they’re speaking up in support of considering truly odious, heinous, or evil ideas.

367. Oh FFS, I’ve been taught how to prevent rape from before I knew what rape is.
And no, nobody giving all that noce advice has the slightest idea about the realities of rape, since their precious advice is hardly effective on acquaintance rape or intimate partner rape and furthermore thinking their advice through means “stay at home, wear a bruqa, don’t have a job or a life”.
I’m sick and tired of it.

368. Fernando Rivera #373

I placed my objections to your comment in order of importance, most-to-least. Oddly, I note that you avoid answering the first objection. Why is that?

Please show me where, how and by whom, Blunderbutt has been censored.

(While you’re at it, you might want to point to where he has indulged in anything like good conversation on this topic. Good luck with that.)

369. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

I get suspicious when people silence others. That’s just me, though.

Nobody is being silenced. But nobody will be believed unless they can present EVIDENCE to back up their ideas. Until then, per Hitchens: “That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

Free thinkers do not censor dissenting opinion.

This is a lie. FreeThinkers value EMPIRICISM, that is evidence. Without evidence, any idea can’t be shown not be bullshit.

370. says

Fernando Rivera 376:

I get suspicious when people silence others.

Who, pray tell, has been silenced? Personally, I get suspicious when people do not tell ginormous asshats to STFU. That’s just me, though.

371. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

Freeth Inkers believe every idea without evidence is valid until shown wrong. Sounds like NewAge (rhymes with sewage) bullshit that any skeptic can refute. Freethinkers demand evidence, just like scientists do. Guess who is advancing humanity, and who is not.

372. Nick Gotts says

Stephen5000@360,

In my very humble opinion

Ah, start as you mean to go on, eh – with a falsehood.

Shouldn’t people be aware of when they’re at any kind of risk?

Do you, or Thunderfoot, really think any woman is unaware of the risk of rape? Either you are extremely stupid, or that’s your opinion of women. In either case, you’re opinions are worthless.

Who is Thunderf00t to list specifics about what women should do, he is a man after all.

Who is Thunderfoot to give women advice of any kind, he is a misogynist arsehole after all.

But I think that as long as men have a natural drive to procreate there will be assholes who don’t understand the consequences of their actions

Of course they understand the consequences – they just don’t give a shit about their victims, or actively hate them. As for “natural drive to procreate”: children get raped, men get raped, women past the menopause get raped – so WTF has rape to do with “a natural drive to procreate”?

What do you have against institutionalized religion if it isn’t that it suppresses dissenting ideas?

Among other things, its misogyny. Which is why I also despise Thunderfoot and his fanbois.

If you can’t objectively consider the opinions of somebody you disagree with, you aren’t free thinking, guys.

Another dolt with no idea what “free thinking” means. No, it doesn’t mean you have to spend your time analysing any stupid garbage some numpty chooses to spew, in exhaustive detail. Do you spend your time “objectively considering” the arguments of David Icke?

For anybody who is actually interested, the video title is:

‘Feminist logic’ Stay Safe = YOU DESERVE RAPE!.

Which is, of course, about the most grotesque and dishonest distortion possible. It’s a barefaced, misogyist lie.

The more I read this article and its responses, the more I’m personally reminded of why I hate religion so much.

Oh, right, you and all your fellow-fanbois have been “suppressed” by having your fuckwitted “arguments” dismissed for the smelly crud they are.

373. Fernando Rivera
Do you have an actual point to make or are you just going to carry on about how people are silenced, especially TF when he actually isn’t?

374. Removing him from this site and ridiculing him in a venue where he can’t respond is still an obstacle to objectivity, though.

Blunderbutt is not banned, to my knowledge, from commenting on any blog on this network. He merely doesn’t have a blog on this network.

Looking at the comments here, it’s clear that many if not most people didn’t actually go to the trouble of watching Thunderf00t’s video. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

Which one? I’m fairly sure there’s been another spewing-forth from the Blunderous Butt in the last week or so, and I haven’t, personally, seen that one. The one being referred to in the OP: yep, saw that. And the couple before that moaning about how teaching men not to rape is somehow the wrong approach.

Have you seen them? I ask because you seem not to have a clue what people here are finding objectionable about those videos.

375. Nick Gotts says

Looking at the comments here, it’s clear that many if not most people didn’t actually go to the trouble of watching Thunderf00t’s video. – Fernando Rivera

I don’t spend time reading David Icke, L. Ron Hubbard, Ray Comfort or David Irving either. Nor do I need to wade in shit to know it stinks. Your point?

376. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

I get suspicious when people silence others.

so do i.

point me to these occurrences where people are silencing others.

377. Nick Gotts says

Fernando Rivera@385,

I had a bellyfull of that misogynist scumbag Thunderfoot during the brief period he blogged here. I don’t need to waste any more time on him. Or his fanbois.

378. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

But, if you’re going to go out of your way to criticize any of those people, as PZ Myers and others have done here to TF, you had better actually know what they’re saying.

We know exactly what he is saying. Why do you keep lying and bullshitting.

It’s an important part of being objective and intellectually honest.

Actually, demanding EVIDENCE is an important part of being objective, which is fact based, and intellectually honest, which is also fact based. What is your excuse for being a creature of inane unevidenced ideas, and thinking they are facts?

Admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about is certainly better than pretending that you do.

You are the one pretending you know what you talk about. Nothing but lies, bullshit and attitude, but not one link to any third party evidence to back up your claims. Which are therefore dismissed without evidence too.

379. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

@fernando

Admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about is certainly better than pretending that you do.

And so, please admit you have now idea when or if anyone has been “silenced” by PZ, or by the commenters in this thread…or show that you know what you’re talking about by citing an example of silencing.

380. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

Q: how does fernando know that Tf00t has been silenced?
A: he heard it from tf00t himself, how can you challenge that evidence?

381. Fernando Rivera
I take that as a “no”

383. Fernando, it was Tf00t’s choice to remove his blog at FTB. He is not censored or banned here, nor at any other FTB blog I’m aware of. He’s perfectly free to post.

Just think what a great space TF’s blog could be for you guys to make fun of him directly.

When he blogged here, no one was making fun of him, they were, however, applying critical thinking skills to what he wrote. Tf00t didn’t care for that very much.

384. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

but if you end up deciding to engage TF’s points, do it for real.

There are no points, as NO EVIDENCE was provided by TF.

I count TF’s blog being removed as TF being silenced to some degree. You must all know what I’m talking about.

Maybe he can make posts here still? I don’t know. His blog was still removed.

Just think what a great space TF’s blog could be for you guys to make fun of him directly.

Who gives a shit what nothing but liar and bullshitter thinks, since they don’t. You can’t/won’t show TF has been silenced at all. All he lost was the ability to blog under the FtB banner. He can post here as a commenter in any thread he wants at any time. he is afraid to come here. His lack of evidence will be exposed forthwith, and he knows that.

Do you have any evidence to offer, as your OPINION isn’t and never will be considered as evidence for anything.

385. says

Fernando Rivera #395

It’s not silencing someone when you’ve loaned them your megaphone and then you ask for it back because it becomes obvious that it was a mistake to lend it to them in the first place.

TF still has his own megaphone, after all.

386. Fernando Rivera #395

I count TF’s blog being removed as TF being silenced to some degree. You must all know what I’m talking about.

I am supremely uninterested in what you count as “TF being silenced to some degree.” He still has a voice. He may still comment here. This is not censorship by any definition.

Just think what a great space TF’s blog could be for you guys to make fun of him directly.

I can do so, merely by commenting under one of his videos.

Back on topic, what is your opinion of Blunderbutt’s assertion that teaching men how not to rape is the wrong approach?lt?

387. says

P.S. to my #399: given some clarifications above, then that should read as follows

It’s not silencing someone when that someone throws the megaphone you loaned them back in your face because they can’t handle the audience disagreeing with the inane unoriginal unevidenced rubbish that someone has used your megaphone to utter.

388. Nick Gotts says

Daz, it is damaging to the free flow of ideas to silence anybody, on any level. – Fernando Rivera@402

So according to you, David Icke, Ray Comfort and David Irving should all be invited to blog on FTB; oh, and David Miscavige, since L. Ron Hubbard is no longer available. If not giving someone a blog here is silencing them, and “it is damaging to the free flow of ideas to silence anybody, on any level”, that follows, doesn’t it?

389. Jackie teh kitteh cuddler says

Fernando,
You are full of shit, lazy, lack empathy and are bad at thinking.Go fix your ignorance by actually learning instead of pontificating, whining and expecting others to answer you insipid questions…again.

Also, fuck you for being so dismissive of actual victims in your attempt to defend victim blaming.

390. says

Aww, who’s got a widdle sock puppet? Who? Yes, you’s does, widdle stephen5000/Fernando Rivera. It’s you! I see you! Did you think you’d fool us? Did you, diddums? Nah, we’re used to the childish ways of thunderf00t fans.

391. Al Dente says

Free speech does not mean someone is guaranteed a platform. Free speech does not mean someone is guaranteed listeners. Free speech does not mean what someone says cannot be criticized.

392. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

One doesn’t need to wonder about the intellectual dishonesty of someone who engages in sock-puppetry. They are totally and utterly dishonest. Hypocrites all if they mention intellectual honesty anywhere in their posts.

This rampant sock-puppetry on the part of TF supporters makes me seriously wonder about the true numbers of TF’s alleged supporters. How many of them post support under a number of different ‘nyms, making it seem his support is bigger than it really is? That is the problem with intellectual dishonesty. It makes everybody who has honesty and integrity question everything those without claim….

393. says

Anyone here surprised that Fernando was stephen5000’s sockpuppet? Anyone?

Since xe’s almost certainly still reading:

Admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about is certainly better than pretending that you do.

Agreed. So why does Tf00t keep bloviating about rape (and feminism, and harassment policies, and FtB’s hit counts) when he clearly knows nothing about it? Seems like this comment is poorly directed.

As to “Tfoot been silenced cuz his blog’s not here anymore,” others have explained why this is utterly stupid. The network is not required to give an individual platform to every voice regardless of their content or intent. It’s not “silencing” for FtB to exclude bloggers who don’t promote freethought, any more than it’d be “silencing” for the CFI to exclude speakers who don’t promote skepticism, or for Uncommon Descent to exclude bloggers who don’t promote ID. They can find their own platform.

On the other hand, if there were some actual rule that said “you can only comment about something that someone else said if you do it on their personal platform,” that would certainly have the effect of silencing lots of commentary and dissent, since those people could very easily control their platforms and disallow critical commentary. Thankfully, no such rule exists, despite the way you seem to suggest that it does. But then, again, given how much Tf00t talks about Anita Sarkeesian and FTB without doing so on their platforms, it seems like your comments are, again, poorly directed.

Perhaps you should sock-puppet yourself on over to Thunderf00t’s place and levy the same complaints. See how well they’re received.

394. Stephen fivekay says

395. PatrickG says

As I’m sure isn’t surprising, I felt the need to respond

Believe me, pumpkin, nobody doubts that you feel the need to respond.

396. Stephen fivekay says

397. says

Just because something *can* be done does not mean that it *ought* to be done, Stephen fivekay.Using a different user account in order to evade a moderator ban is considered extremely poor netiquette generally, and is a breach of the Pharyngula Rules specifically.

I have no doubt that when the squidly one wakes up to find you have morphed yet again, your current comments will be redacted and stronger measures will be taken to block you from morphing again. You will not be missed.

398. omnicrom says

Okay then. Quick, before you get banned Stephen Fivekay: How are we promoting misinformation? That’s a very direct claim, surely you can provide evidence of it. How is banning Thunderfoot from one tiny corner of the internet “interrupting the free flow of ideas”? Surely you’ve hear from and listen to him in many other capacities?

Also thank you rape apologist for calling us “such pieces of shit” for not putting up with your rape apology. I personally think that the idiot crap that Thunderfoot (and you) are putting out makes him (and you) “such pieces of shit”. And if we are hated by the misogynistic Rape Defending wing of the internet then so be it, I’d rather have the ire of them than the ire of rape victims.

399. Stephen fivekay says

400. jefrir says

OMG, I’ve been horribly silenced! Nobody ever gave me a blog on FtB, and apparently that’s censorship. Oh noes!

Once again for the hard-of-thinking:
Not giving someone a platform =/= censorship

401. says

There appears to be some sort of odd noise on #409, #411 and #414. Is it the sound of peaches freezing?

402. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

Steven:
PZ is not interrupting any ‘free flow of ideas’. Your hero ThunderFuck is clearly still running his mouth about feminism, FTB, sexual harassment policies, free speech…he just is not doing it at FtB…thankfully. Free speech does not mean people have to give him the time of day. He is not entitled to an audience and no one is required to listen to him. I have read enough from that sleazy, dishonest douchemaggott to last several cycles of reincarnation. As I am sure many others have.
Take your banhammer worthy sockpuppeting somewhere else.

403. Stephen
You’ve been told to go away. You’re being more than rude by insisting you remain here.
No wonder people like you cannot put up with things like harassment policies, because other people are of no concern to you whatsoever.

404. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

I don’t get it.
Why do Thunderf00l’s minions come here? We already know their script:

– PZ banned Thunderdouche from FtB
(He did no such thing, nor does he have the power)

– PZ is silencing Thunderdud
(Yes, bc no one, anywhere, hears from him)

– PZ…Thunderfap…therefore…Free Speech
(Uttered by Mason’s Mindless Minions who have no clue what free speech means, which is why the above makes no sense)

Given that we have heard all this, and they are not going to change minds here, what is the point?

405. Lofty says

I’ve not seen one single post here by the thunderfool since he left in high dudgeon, but is it possible that all his minions and sockpuppets are, actually, the thunderfool himself? That he makes all this noise just to make it seem like he has friends?

406. says

This is hilarious. We’ve gone from the claim that not giving Thunderf00t his own blog at this network is “silencing”, to the new claim that PZ writing his own opinions on his own blog is “interrupting a free flow of ideas”.

Apparently, saying things that sockpuppet #3 doesn’t agree with is off limits, yet we’re the ones doing censorship. This is really starting to get silly.

407. PZ
This REALLY has to stop. First you froze people’s peaches and now you freeze their Ink as well

408. says

Are all of thunderf00t’s fans this stupid?

409. Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^= says

Are all of thunderf00t’s fans this stupid?

There you go, PZ, asking us to prove a negative.

Tut, tut.

There might well be a reasonable, intelligent, invisible, pink thunderf00t fan in orbit somewhere between Mars and Jupiter.

410. says

@PZ #423:

Are all of thunderf00t’s fans this stupid?

They all seem to share the same disdain for personal boundaries and refusal to follow basic rules if they don’t think they should have to.

Strange, that.

411. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

@Giliell:

Free sink?